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Previous Thread >>45272911
What monsters have you thrown at your players? Do you use things from the books like Cryptids (Mage) or Reptiloids (Demon) or Aswangs (Wicked Dead)? Or do you make up weird shit that your players would never see coming?
I actually did throw an Aswang at my players.
My more responsible player then animated the corpse of her last victim, knocked on her suburban cul-de-sac door at 7am, got greeted with a shotgun, and then had a zombie murder a woman in full view of every other house. Then they took her corpse away in their unmarked van before the cops came. They also insulted the vampire they were supposed to work with and stole the corpse of his girlfriend to make a zombie.
They were supposed to build reputation with the other supernatural communities to help their small cabal.
That's the fastest any game has ever gone south on me.
>>45294233
>Or do you make up weird shit that your players would never see coming?
I gave a Sin-Eater some Slasher merits and set him after my players. I also refluffed Hedge Wolves to be R.O.U.S.s when they wandered into the Hedge through some steam tunnels.
>>45294948
>R.O.U.S.s
I don't think those exist
>>45294233
I have thrown abomination from beyond the Star at my Troup. It was different from an demon from the abyss with typically which corrupts the world around them. This creature instead had reality buckling around the it almost as if the universe was trying to reject it.
>>45295740
I thought Luna kept aliens out?
>>45295779
Nobody's perfect
>>45295779
It does. So what that make of this creature then? I would say more but my player lurks this thread and he is a mage. So why ruin the mystery?
>>45295810
The God Machine is real
>>45294233
Is MtA 2nd ed out?
>>45295796
True that. But rank 7 spirits should be pretty efficient. Sneaky aliens, I guess.
>>45295823
Stop it. The wounds are still fresh, no need to salt them. In other words, no. But yet. A cruel Acanthus must be at work here.
>>45295820
Yes
>>45295823
No
>>45295828
Never said it was an alien.
>>45295779
>>45295810
>So what that make of this creature then?
"Who cares"
Also, I don't think Luna keeps the aliens out. That's more of a fan theory.
>>45295872
Actually it's not
>The current in the Gauntlet during the day and the effect of Shadow-sunlight have the same cause. While Luna is ever-changing and protean, guarding the earthly Shadow from alien void spirits, her brother Helios is steadfast, unchanging, and pushes everything within the lunar sphere “in,” forcing Essence to ground, fixing spirits in place and creating the Shadow’s “gravity.”
>>45295872
No, she actually does. Chris talked about it a few threads ago.
>>45295866
Beyond the stars implies that much, anon.
>>45295902
That is true I did say that. But that is how the player say it appear but as I said earlier my player hunt this thread like a shark in human skin. So I can't say more about it for now.
>>45295902
>>45295899
"Alien void spirits" isn't the same as "aliens". Zaphod can still park his car in Jersey.
>>45295952
Luna exists in the Shadow, how the fuck is she supposed to keep material aliens out?
>>45295944
I had to take speach classes. And I think I may be dyslexic or lazy.
>>45295969
That's... exactly what I said? "Alien void spirits" doesn't mean she keeps the earth from being invaded by space aliens. It means she keeps the Shadow from being invaded by alien void spirits. Shit like the Idigam or some kind of weird nearly-Abyssal shit. Not "XCOM can never happen in WoD because Luna protects us", which is what people keep implying with stuff like >>45295779
>>45295982
Just proofread before you post.
>>45295944 is being kind of a dick.
>>45295969
Strong spirits can interact with the flesh without being materialized. And while mother luna can't or won't materialize she still has influence in the world be it werewolves or the army of moon spirits in the sky.
>>45295899
>While Luna is ever-changing and protean, guarding the earthly Shadow from alien void spirits, her brother Helios is steadfast, unchanging,
Does anyone else have a problem with this? I think it's really annoying that the ever-changing deity is associated with the unchanging lump of rock, while the unchanging one is associated with the giant furnace of constant and violently changing plasma.
It doesn't make a lick of sense and while, yes, some earth cultures had that association, shadow spirits in the WoD shouldn't be that much affected by human ideas of the sun and moon. It's the shadow, not the Temenos.
Maybe Allen can answer that? Why is Luna the changing one in the CofD?
NWoD always had a bizarre aversion to aliens. Mythological monsters? Sure. Urban legends? Sure. Conspiracy theories being true? Sure. God is a computer and his servants are robots? Okay. Things that look like aliens, sound like aliens, and work like aliens, but are assured to actually be spirits, fairies, or astral entities? Fine.
Actual creatures from other planets? That's where the line is drawn.
>>45295998
There actually something wrong with my phone. I dropped my phone in some water some weeks back now the touch screen sometimes. Like putting L's instead of deleting letters.
>>45296049
Sun is either up or down
Moon has differing phases
That's it, is't it?
>>45296070
Yeah, but those phases have nothing to do with the moon itself. Nothing about the Moon changes during them, just how the human eyes see it, and even that is because of the Earth casting its shadow on it, not because of some porperty of the Moon itself.
>>45296049
The phases of the moon chages over time. It shows different faces it these faces that determine the wolf's Auspice.
>>45296090
Yeah, but the game is about humans. Luna is changeable because we create the most resonance for her and we see her as everchanging
>>45296061
Mess up sometimes.
Even leaving out entire words.
>>45296090
Scientificly your right. But think of the people thousands of years ago who looked up at the sky watching the moon shift and alter itself month by month. How could the moon not be associated with change?
>>45296113
But she doesn't change! The sun is the one that changes all the time!
Sure, human essence. But I don't think that should be enough to change a deity that is this powerful that much. Lump of rock into protean being just because of some shadows cast on it is a bit much. We are not just talking about influences here, this is changing the entire core nature of a being.
>>45296049
Luna is the changing one because the moon is the one that looks like it changes from a vantage point of Earth.
>>45296140
>But think of the people thousands of years ago who looked up at the sky watching the moon shift and alter itself month by month.
Human beings are barely a few seconds old by the measure of sun and moon. By that logic, they should have been significantly different before humans came about, which should lead to noticeable differences in the Neolithic and maybe even Alexandrian dark eras.
>>45296153
>Luna is the changing one because the moon is the one that looks like it changes from a vantage point of Earth.
So because the resonance of some essence produced by a group of beings that has existed for subjective seconds, the Shadow Spirits of Sun and Moon did a 180° turn in their core nature?
And they did it so quickly that they are the same even in the oldest settings/records available in the WoD. That feels a bit much.
>>45296142
>Sure, human essence. But I don't think that should be enough to change a deity that is this powerful that much.
Whee does that godly power come from if not resonance created on Earth? Hitting Rank 6 doesn't make a spirit spontaneously start generating essence when that was impossible before, it comes from having such overwhelmingly broad of singular influence over something that you claim at least a portion of all relevant resonance.
And Humans are the biggest source of resonance so our perceptions, especially when taken en masse will definitely affect the spirits who feed on the essence generated as a result.
>>45296168
>By that logic, they should have been significantly different before humans came about
I always assumed this about them.
>>45296168
>>45296189
But in respect the moon and human have always been around. Don't forget reality as we know it is a lie. Before time as we know it there were the moon in the sky and people looking up to it seeing it change as the nights went by.
>>45296205
>Whee does that godly power come from if not resonance created on Earth?
Does that mean that the Spirits of things like the Milky Way or a Black Hole aren't actually as powerful as Sol and Luna, because they aren't as important to humans?
>>45296231
Probably, yeah.
>>45296189
>>45296142
DO NOT BRING SCIENCE INTO A DISCUSSION ABOUT SPIRITS.
>>45296142
>>45296231
The Spirits Don't care for your science as it fail to capture the essence of Mother Luna.
>>45296205
>especially when taken en masse will definitely affect the spirits who feed on the essence generated as a result.
Affect, yes. But a change this dramatic just because of some cultures beliefs should be the realm of Temenos Spirits, not Shadow Spirits.
Remember we are not just talking about what kind of essence they are able to eat, we are talking about their core role in the setting.
If the quote in >>45295899 is right in that for example Sol is only fixing spirits in place because of his association with being steadfast and unchanging... then what had that job in the Shadow before humans created those associations for Sol?
>>45296231
I know the Milky Way is bigger and more cosmically significant than a single solar system. I know that black holes can consume and destroy stars (I'm not science-minded so this may be incorrect admittedly).
Assuming most people think like I do, then logically the spirits of galaxies and black holes must be more powerful than Helios & Luna. But we think about them a lot less than I do the sun & the moon, so those gods have a much easier time influencing the world/shadow directly.
>>45296090
If your insistent on science the moon causes the oceans to move as they do. The moon is the force that shift the waves.
>>45296288
>If your insistent on science the moon causes the oceans to move as they do. The moon is the force that shift the waves.
Shifting some water around isn't "being changing". Also, the Sun has produced far more change on the earth than Moon's gravity has.
>>45296268
>in that for example Sol is only fixing spirits in place because of his association with being steadfast and unchanging... then what had that job in the Shadow before humans created those associations for Sol?
Who knows? Maybe nothing had that job, maybe that's why there's so much fucked up shit in the world with ill-intent towards humans; before us they could come and go as they pleased, but now they're stuck here because we misunderstood the spiritual significance of the Sun.
>>45296049
>>45296090
>>45296168
>>45296142
>>45296189
>>45296205
>>45296268
Shadow spirits are INCREDIBLY affected by human ideas. That's exactly why Helios and Luna work the way that they do.
Spirits are fed off of Essence. Humans create Essence far more than anything else. That's why spirits of concepts are so powerful, and why things like Fire Spirits can be fed by passion and anger and excitement.
It's that concept of worship powering deities. Except here it's feeding them, and your actual worship helps but isn't necessary. Thor gets fed every time there's a thunderbolt not simply because of the crackle of ionized air bursting loudly and the brilliant white hot flash of plasma. It's because creatures scurry and flee and man hides in his tiny caves, huddling in terror. The concept of Spirits simply doesn't WORK if you assume everything is as it's always been and reality happened the way that it did in the real world, geologically or astrologically.
>>45296283
The Milky Way is significant in the same way that Gaia is significant. Hundreds of insects crawl across it's back without even knowing.
>>45296268
Those people you talk about can alter the universe. Well granted not all of them but your forgetting that people have lived as long as the moon in CofD because people lived before the Fall of Atlantis and so did the moon.
Then Atlantis fell the Lie set in and the "facts" of this universe settled in. With the earth FULLY FORMED and MOON in the SKY. Clearly the Lie has a great hold on you.
>>45296090
do you know what "symbolism" is my dude or do you get really confused when Christians wear crosses because that has nothing to do with the teachings of Christ?
>>45296365
>do you know what "symbolism" is my dude or do you get really confused when Christians wear crosses because that has nothing to do with the teachings of Christ?
Do you know the differences between Temenos and Shadow, or do you get confused by complicated things like letters and words?
I know symbolism, you don't seem to know shit.
>>45296365
>>45296386
Things were going well, lets not turn this into a cat fight.
>>45296342
>mage thinks everything is about them
Shocker
>>45296386
They are not exclusive.
>>45296386
The shadow reflects the world but the reverse is also true. The moon as we see it could be changing its phase in reflection of her changing nature.
>>45296405
Hay I'm not wrong. Hmm this is weird normally I'm on the other side of mage debates.
>>45296386
You seem to be confused about the difference between the Temenos and Shadow more than anyone, to be honest.
>>45296405
Replace "Fall of Atlantis" with "Death of Urfarah"
>>45296327
>Spirits are fed off of Essence. Humans create Essence far more than anything else
Yeah, but Essence isbased on emotion, not specific thought.
If Sol is steadfast because of humans, then it isn't because humans thought "the Sun is steadfast". It's because the sun gave rise to emotions like trust that are associated with being steadfast.
But in this case we are back to Luna not making sense, because both the moon's phases and its effects on the oceans are 100% predictable and humans have trusted their timing for millenia. What does Luna do that would give rise to emotions that results in Resonance that could make her changing or protean.
>>45296597
OH MY GOD!, they're two stories about the same event.
I'm fucking retarded, how did I never see that before.
>>45296615
They're not. Neolithic Mage is even after the fall, before the Sundering.
>>45296604
It's both. And predictable or not, it still changes constantly.
>>45296597
Well the death of father wolf happened in the bronze age. So with that his point may still be valid.
>>45296604
It's not specific emotions, Luna gets all the collective resonance of "Humans reacting to the Moon" or something to that effect. It's as much perception and the way that makes us feel in ways we never really consider or can properly express as much as blunt categories like "awe" or "fear"
>>45296615
>>45296597
Except in Dark eras(Paleolithic), apparently Father Wolf is just walking around but Atlantis is already gone. No silver weakness for wolves, but paradox is still gonna bite mages in the ass.
>>45296642
>>45296670
I haven't read Dark Eras so maybe I wasn't retarded before but am now. Either way, that little nugget is going into my headcanon for possible future use in games.
>>45296615
They actually are not. I thought it had great symmetry and I'm still using thst my self. But their not.
>>45296642
Between day and night cycle and changing in size and color to human perception thanks to the athmospheric influnce, the Sun also changes constantly from a human perspective.
And the moon changing being predictable, dependable, and regular means that it wouldn't produce emotions (= resonance) that could lead to the Shadow Spirit of the Moon being any more changing than that of the Sun.
Way I figure it, is the destruction of Atlantis was much like an act of Archmastery. The entire universe shifted slightly to excise it from causality.
Sure you can find references to it, or fragments and Artifacts from the time, but Atlantis is gone, never to have existed, or exist ever again. Any attempt to get close will be poisoned by the Abyss (as described in the Guardians of the Veil book) and doomed to failure.
>>45296670
I know. Still works, though, that's why I suggested it.
(It doesn't work, but if it stops this argument)
>>45296696
You can say that, but human culture has never really focused on the way the sun changes other than it moving across the sky and going away at night.
>>45296670
The price being for werewolves in that time is no tribes or lodges. So they lose out on some renown.
>>45296723
Yup, the fall always was, and always has been.
>>45296680
>>45296615
You're not retarded. They very well could have been the same thing, before the cosmic retcon.
>>45296386
im not sure what this means but i was making fun of the poster who couldn't reconcile the physical, literal forms of the real life sun and moon and the Luna as a goddess of change in WoD because they have trouble understanding anything that is not exactly literal.
>>45296753
That corgi weirds me out
>>45296386
You seem to be a little bit of a cunt.
>>45296753
They do mention in the Seers preview that the Exarchs ended the time when trees would demand blood for their fruits. Sounds like spirits to me.
>>45296793
That corgi is ADORABLE.
>>45296797
Are you implying the Ezarchs had something to do with Big Wolf Daddy's end? Because I like that.
>>45296735
>You can say that, but human culture has never really focused on the way the sun changes other than it moving across the sky and going away at night.
Is that fact, or just supposition based on a limited number of cultures observed.
Yes, there are cultures that view the Moon as changing. But at this point we are just in the danger of getting into Ascension like arguments about why reality isn't defined by the Chinese and Indians.
>>45296782
>literal forms of the real life sun and moon and the Luna as a goddess of change in WoD because they have trouble understanding anything that is not exactly literal.
You really know shit about the Shadow, do you?
>>45296851
Yes
>>45296851
>Because I like that.
I don't, can't Mages just be happy with their own cosmology?
Claiming they're connected to everything under the sun is partly why people hate Beasts so much.
>>45296851
I swear, making a stupid typo must be my ban.
>>45296867
Stop. Let the Luna discussion die. It was just leading to arguing.
>>45296889
Mages have their fingers in most pies, since, you know, cosmic retcons. They caused Christianity(and by effect Lancea) to become the predominant religion due to an ascension.
>>45296889
The abyss and the shadows forming being a correlated event seems feasible. Who knows how prehistoric Wolfy/wizard relations were.
>>45296908
The acts of Archmasters can hardly be said to be real at all, given that by merely attempting to cast a 6 dot spell you might retroactively accidentally North America.
>>45296908
>They caused Christianity(and by effect Lancea) to become the predominant religion due to an ascension.
I though it was an accident.
>>45296908
The Christianity thing is a rumor by the free council. Not fact, it could be fact that part is up to the storyteller.
>>45296954
Do what to North America? Do what to North America?!?
>>45296995
The entire thing
>>45296960
Accidental fingers are fingers none the less.
>>45296995
>Do what to North America?
Accidentally.
>>45296998
This.
Did the rules for Possession become incredibly more convoluted going from nWoD 1e to 2e?
Like, it used to be just a simple Numina, a ghost could assume direct control for one scene, and now there are all these stacked Conditions and no Numina and what?
>>45297084
More convoluted, but better too
>>45296867
You really don't seem to understand how Shadow works. For the Shadow, reality IS kind of consensual.
>>45297108
You seem to have misunderstood the arguments. >>45297108
>For the Shadow, reality IS kind of consensual.
Gratulations, you stated something noone argued against.
It's the "kind of" (i.e. how much that influence is) and how realistic the development of Sun and Moon over time is that was under discussion.
And stopped being under discussion, before you dragged it up again.
>Although a demon’s physical nature is dualistic — partly divine, partly mundane — their mental and emotional outlook is resembles that of a human. It’s true that demons have extraordinary pasts and think in alien ways that defy supernatural manipulation, but they tend to come to fairly mundane human conclusions.
>think in alien ways that defy supernatural manipulation
Is there a mechanic I'm missing somewhere in the book to match this bit of fluff, where demons can't be affected by mindfuckery?
I only see the part about fooling every possible lie detector. Is there some rule combo I'm missing here.
>>45297239
This oWoD Demon?
nWoD demon makes a big thing out of their near-perfect lying.
>>45297251
No, it's CofD, I'm reading the book atm as well
>>45297251
Like I said I found that part, in nDemon, but perfect lying doesn't remotely fit the description "defying manipulation."
>>45297312
I guess you could say it's something like how Cover works against supernatural powers.
Apart from that, I don't know.
Never actually played Demon.
Is there such a spirit Influence as "Death"?
Because any Influence use I think of actually relates to Murder rather than Death.
>>45297092
Explain further.
Ghosts can literally only possess their own anchors? Unless they're at Rank 4+(just about never gonna happen for a ghost) to have enough Control Influence to turn anything into a temporary Anchor for a few minutes?
Which isn't nearly enough time to then perform the vague nonspecific entity-themed actions required for the Open Condition:
>an entity fine tuning the prerequisite Condition as part of an extended action involving the subject and entity acting in concert, for a number of scenes equal to Rank or a living subject’s Resolve, whichever is higher.
So you'd need 6 dots of Influence minimum(4+ •• one hour per success) to make a temporary Anchor last long enough to climb the Condition tree.
It looks like it's all but undoable for ghosts now; you can't just be near an Anchor or even wearing an Anchor, you have to be one?
Are there examples in the book I didn't notice of the Anchor/Resonant/Infrastructure/Open Condition rules.
>>45297473
The Chronic page 348, Avernian Gateways.
presumably spirits exist that match these places.
>The gateways are in Twilight, made of ghostly ephemera, and appear in places with the Resonant Condition tagged as “Death” — anywhere that people die in large numbers or that has a feel of Death about it can house a gate.
>>45297557
Ghosts Anchors are set when they're created (almost always relating to the trauma that led to the ghost being formed, though sometimes created by people summoning them) and are at ANCHOR condition (spirit equivalent is RESONANT) by default. As long as they stay in range of the Anchor, they can draw 1 essence/day but still suffer essence bleed.
All Ghosts have at least 1 dot of Influence, and that Influence will relate to their Anchors in some way. Therefore they can use the Strengthen Influence effect to cause an Anchor to switch to OPEN condition for the duration without needing to spend scenes fine tuning.
Whilst an Anchor is OPEN, a Ghost may use the FETTER, MATERIALIZE or POSSESS manifestation effects if it has them, which basically freeze the OPEN condition's duration until the superior condition expires in the case of FETTER this is until the Anchor is no longer available, allowing them to remain in Twilight effectively indefinitely.
>>45297576
That's what I was thinking, but how would you Strengthen/Manipulate/Control Death in a way that isn't more appropriate for Murder?
>>45297737
>Ghosts
>Anchors
>Avernian Gateways
>graveyard gates
>Sin-eater trinkets
>death stains
You're thinking too simplistic.
>>45297737
Very rarely will a Spirit be of "just" Death.
They might be murder, or accidental death, starvation, or many other different forms of termination.
So for example a spirit of a slow creeping Death by many years who lives in a funeral home might use its Strengthen influence to push really old people over the precipice to ensure its favourite source of Essence stays pumping.
So I can give the short answer about the Luna debate, which is:
Luna doesn't particularly care what humans think of it. Any Essence created by particularly fervent belief about the moon is consumed by spirits of fervor and belief or by Lunes, not Luna.
And I can give the long answer, which starts in canon, then rapidly leaves the area we've currently sketched out for how Luna works in the new edition and off into my own personal interpretation of how it works in detail.
I'd really like to have a crack at writing up the moon, Lunar courts etc etc in more detail at some point since I think it'll add a fair bit to both small-scale interactions with Lunes and to larger-scale games where Luna's actual agenda mattes more.
Where are these Hunter monster creation rules I've heard mentioned that predate the Horrors rules in 2e. What page and book?
Did that WTF game's first session actually happen Thursday. Are the logs up?
>>45297084
The reason for the stacked Conditions and such is so that mortal investigators, werewolf shamans, and other interested parties have ways and means to deal with ephemeral entities. Burning a ghost's bones to kick the "anchor" rung out from under it while it's trying to Claim someone, that kind of thing.
It looks more complicated than it is, as no entity has every possible Manifestation.
And on an earlier subject in today's thread - the Fall of Atlantis/Time Before is in no way connected to the Sundering, when the werewolves killed Father Wolf and kicked off an apocalypse that turned Pangaea into the Gauntlet. The former no longer exists in the world's timeline, the latter definitely does, and if you use Postcognition on a neanderthal's skull or something to see what the world was like 200,000 years ago, you'll see a pre-Sundering world where spirits roamed free-ish. But where Atlantis was gone, people Awakened to Watchtowers, and the Exarchs ruled in the Supernal Realm.
>>45298343
Luna and Lunes and Helios and Helions definitely need some official detailed 2e treatment.
BTW, Luna is still a spirit and must feed on essence. What's her primary food source? Lunes who've displeased her?
>>45298637
Wait.
If a ghost is able to try to Claim someone, isn't said Claim-target, by definition, Controlled, and therefore Open, and therefore an Anchor unto themselves?
>>45298637
Do spirit familiars in Mage 2e all have the Materialize Manifestation, or are they the equivalent of 1e fetch familiars only existing in twilight?
Sending positive thoughts hoping Mage 2e and Dark Eras will finally leave layout this week.
>>45298785
Luna's primary 'food source' is the physical moon, which she is the spiritual reflection of.
She *probably* also gets Essence from eating void entities that try to breach her patrol.
>>45299069
Mage won't. I haven't had it arrive for my checking yet.
>>45298798
And if you remove the underlying Anchor, the Open Manifestation effect immediately ends.
It's like stacking blocks - you stop spirits and ghosts from using their end-stage Manifestations by removing the foundation ones.
>>45298837
I answer this regularly, and I suspect this isn't my first time answering it for you. The variable cost of the Familiar Merit determines the Rank of the creature. You then stat it entirely as normal.
So they *can* have Materialize if they take it as one of their allowed Manifestations, but don't have to. It's up to the player.
>>45299210
So, if I understand this correctly, the familiar bond creates a permanent Open condition between mage and familar along with a presumably non-hostile relationship between the parties?
Does a spirit need to voluntarily consent to the familiar bond or can it be imposed?
Does the Merit still provide other benefits like mana-essence transfer, sensory link, etc.?
>>45294233
I'm currently using a lot of things in "The Unbbiden" (Mage) book with my players. Having a lot of fun with it.
>>45299147
>Mage won't. I haven't had it arrive for my checking yet.
I forgot there's yet another step after layout. How long do you anticipate your final approval should take once you review the layout draft? The wait has been interminable for fans, and I assume you would like to finally get paid.
Have you at least seen the layout of the relevant Mage portions of Dark Eras?
So, these days I was thinking in a Werewolf adventure where the pack or the Forsaken of the city in general has to deal with Candomblé/Santeria spirits (Iemanjá etc).
How fucked up this can get? And before someone ask, I've read Magical Tradition book where they deteail about these spirits and their mages/sorcerers/mediuns.
>>45299087
>Luna's primary 'food source' is the physical moon
Does the moon just existing provide a Rank 8 spirit with all her essence dietary needs?
It would seem spirits of inanimate objects have it much better in the predatory world of spirits.
>>45299182
>remove the underlying Anchor
...So kill the person who's Open?
Anything that's Open has to be a ghost's Anchor first by definition, going by the book.
>>45299684
>Does the moon just existing provide a Rank 8 spirit with all her essence dietary needs?
I think that's the case, yeah.
http://forum.theonyxpath.com/forum/main-category/main-forum/the-new-world-of-darkness/784657-chronicles-of-darkness-errata/page5#post787894
>- Under the "Open" Condition, the book notes that the Control Influence can be used to temporarily create the "Open" Condition, while the diagram on p. 132 shows that the Strengthen Influence is used to move from the "Resonant" condition to the "Open" Condition.
Is the diagram the canonical one, or the text. At first glance Strengthen makes more sense than Control for making something Open.
Also the Controlled text is confusing. It's the same in nDemon, God-Machine and 2e. is it just a typo that needs a quick s/Claimed/Controlled/g. Cuz it's still a weirdly circular sentence after that: "Successfully ending the condition [...] removes this condition"
>Ending the Condition: Successfully ending the Claimed Condition against the entity’s will, by exorcism or by forcing the Claimed subject into contact with the entity’s bane, removes this Condition and reverts the subject to Open.
>>45296058
This is probably because of the Tzimisce discipline being the alien from Parasyte and the not!Cthulhu stuff Nephandi worshipped. Or just the wacky bullshit involving magical ayy lmaos in Ascension in general.
>>45299440
No, it doesn't create Open. It creates the "Familiar" Manifestation effect on the entity, which stops essence bleed, allows the mana transfer, the sensory link and so on.
The bond can be broken at will by either party.
>>45297239
If your looking for immune to mind fuckery thats in demon translation guide (pg.8). But that is for fallen demons and it does not prevent the demon from bring tricked in normal ways.
>>45300074
I'm more looking for a way to explain that throwaway line.
Should it just not exist? Nothing else in DtD seems to be consistent with it that I saw.
>>45300050
Thanks. Does the Familiar Manifestation result in the equivalent of an Open or Resonant Condition for the mage to allow the spirit to employ any other Manifestations or Numina it may posses, or must the spirit follow the existing rules as normal?
During gameplay, does the Familiar spell (Spirit 4?) automatically create a lasting or permanent bond by default, or does it require the standard extra Reach, spell factors and Willpower dot for an advanced duration permanent effect?
>>45299805
But the major debate was moslty about WHY the moon represents change. Mostly the argument went on because the guy wanted a scientific way of explaining that.
Although you don't have to answer that after all the debate recently died down.
>>45300203
>Thanks. Does the Familiar Manifestation result in the equivalent of an Open or Resonant Condition for the mage to allow the spirit to employ any other Manifestations or Numina it may posses, or must the spirit follow the existing rules as normal?
It has to follow the existing rules.
During gameplay, does the Familiar spell (Spirit 4?) automatically create a lasting or permanent bond by default, or does it require the standard extra Reach, spell factors and Willpower dot for an advanced duration permanent effect?
It's the same as any other spell. It's temporary unless cast at indefinite duration and relinquished.
>>45300203
AFAIK, there are no exceptions to the rule that spells are transient by default in 2e.
>>45300211
>Mostly the argument went on because the guy wanted a scientific way of explaining that.
No, I want a way that makes sense with how the Shadow and Spirits habe been described to work.
Right now, the Sol is steadfast and Luna is protean stuff seems a holdover from previous settings, not something that works with how the metaphysics of the CofD has been described.
>>45298383
In the Hunter corebook. It's a large part of the ST section.
>>45298519
No, because some asshole chased one of my more easily stressed players away fromF-list. Possibly one of the people I had to drop from the game because they didn't fit, but she says it wasn't her, and I can't just ban people from a channel based on the claims of a phantom shitposter on an anonymous imageboard.
But here's the logs from the three preludes I did, as well as some of the setting. I may expand the setting out of boredom.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1gDh48J7fLhjE_8pWtu81_1rOLBPiqHwNFlayFbCKWL8/edit
>>45300202
Its more on the lines it from Owod. They put that in because it was a key part of fallen demons. The reason for its lack of words could be two fold.
First Its to save on word count, as dave or chis would tell you thats a major thing in this line of work.
Second is that its so important to the fallen system they did not need to explain more and probable assume that you have the fallen book to explain why.
But if you need an explanation why think of this. They are creatures of creation, they use to exists on a multiple demansional. Baskes in the glory of God as they Made Creation. Then they turned away from that glory, that was the greatest defiance to turn against the All Mightily herself. This has forever marked their existence with the ability to shrug off any mental effect. After all no amount of magic could equal betraying God.
>>45300257
Thanks again.
I guess if you're a young mage and want a familiar, you best get friendly with a Spirit (or Death or Mind for ghosts and goetia) Master and still expect to owe a significant debt.
It does, however, lead to some good backstory at character generation.
>>45300491
Master? Nah, an Adept won't even risk Paradox as long as they have both you and the entity to hand, the time to cast it as a ritual, and all their tools at the ready.
Although, yes, if you want it to be *safe* they're taking an XP debt by relinquishing the spell properly. So you'll owe them.
>>45300211
Well, I can give you the answer to that as well, but it's the Long Answer as per my original post, so goes as far as we have currently developed for the game then goes out into the realms of my personal interpretation which is not, as yet, canon.
>>45298637
>Burning a ghost's bones
We Winchester now. Awesome.
>>45299087
>>45298343
How does that work?
I mean, how does a lifeless hunk of rock get all this spiritual significance if humans don't matter?
>>45300453
He's saying "what did that line mean in Descent". Descent core has nothing to do with fallen Demons.
Frankly, it means nothing. It's just narrative fluff. At best it's because Demons use Cover to protect against changes, and they can ping true/false at will.
>>45300439
So it's literally just the paragraph right before the long list of Dread Powers and said list?
>What follows is a series of powers that can, as the Storyteller requires, be given to any creature found in your Hunter: The Vigil game.
>>45300293
SHIT I DID NOT MEAN TO START THIS AGAIN.
>>45300531
I think it's safe to say we're okay with that.
>>45300535
Right after the Dread Powers section is a section all about putting the powers together, along with sample monsters.
>>45300531
I would love to read that honestly. You have done great wonders for werewolf in 2E, so I would assume that your lore will eventually become cannon.
>>45300528
What would happen to the Familiar bond if the casing mage only spent a Willpower point instead of the more safe dot?
Would the spell just suffer Dissonance and end, or would there be 'unpleasant' side effects?
>>45300050
>It creates the "Familiar" Manifestation effect on the entity, which stops essence bleed, allows the mana transfer, the sensory link and so on.
This makes mad happy.
>>45300532
>We Winchester now
I was under the impression that Supernatural was one long Hunter game the same way that Adventure Time is based on an actual D&D campaign.
>>45300929
>Adventure Time is based on an actual D&D campaign.
Is it? It might be inspired by D&D, but I don't see how it could be an actual D&D game. Now, Record of Lodoss War, that actually was a D&D campaign (and later Sword World). Plus, Supernatural came out before Hunter the Vigil, and even gets a callout in the Inspiration section, and it's nothing like Reckoning.
Or do I need more caffeine before I can process metaphors?
>>45301293
I've heard that it was based on an actual campaign the creator DMed for his friends. (Of course, "Based on," can give you a lot of wiggle room.)
>Supernatural came out before Hunter the Vigil, and even gets a callout in the Inspiration section
Huh, guess I just missed that. It's been a while since I've played H:tV. My group tends more towards Mage and Vampire.
I really like legacies and consider an alternative setting where legacies and Attainment are the main focus. So Attainment replace spells completely. Could this limiting magician too much ?
>>45302653
>Could this limiting magician too much ?
Good GODS yes.
The primary strength of the Awakened is in their versatility. Remove that, and you might as well be playing Second Sight-tier characters.
Not saying it couldn't be a cool game, but it'd limit them something insane.
>>45294233
Alright senpai, here's a scenario
>You're a mortal, but you're an expert on the supernatural, 4 dots of occult
>you're extremely wealthy, 5 dots of resources
>there's a vampire elder coming after you and you don't know any of his abilities, just that he's at least 500 years old
>you have an artifact that is extremely valuable, but of no immediate use to you, but you don't want to lose it
>the vampire wants the artifact and the vampire wants to kill you
How do you protect the artifact, how do you protect yourself from a powerful elder vampire?
This is nWoD 1E
The mortal isn't particularly physically impressive but isn't bad with academics or occult or medicine.
>>45303057
Could you hire a more powerful vampire elder?
>>45302653
WHAT WOULD THEY HAVE LEFT?!?!
mages only have magic, at least in first edition they would have about 6 ability if they lose spell casting. The other supernatural creatures have innate abilities leeking out their pours, while mages only really get innate abilities in 2E where every arcane gives attainments.
Your mages would be worse then hunters in scale of power cause at least hunters have tactics and other powers at their fingertips.
>>45303057
Generally? You don't. If the vampire is that old, he'll have all your strengths, and a lot more.
Or, considering that it's 1e, he might be completely addled from the fog of ages, and barely more coherent than a child.
>>45303149
>>45302653
...Are you arguing with yourself, or are there two people with this poor grasp of English online at the same time?
>>45303173
Not arguing with myself.
>>45302653
>>45303149
So give mages far more attainments than usual (Similar to disciplines for vampires)? Would it fix that?
>>45303173
>or are there two people with this poor grasp of English online at the same time?
This. I'm not good in English.
>>45303144
Unlikely
>>45303158
>you don't
Why bother replying? I know what a vampire elder is capable of, that's why I'm asking kek
>fog of ages
He knows you by name, and he knows which city you're in
>>45303463
Alright then, could you pay the sun to just never stop shining on you?
>>45303425
>So give mages far more attainments than usual (Similar to disciplines for vampires)? Would it fix that?
Nope. They still lack the versatility they are used to.
They will also be objectively weaker than vampires.
Even if they get enough Attainments to match vampires. (Who have access to like 45 different powers via the Disciplines, not talking blood magic, and Devotions). They'll be severely lacking in inherent abilities, such as Physical Intensity, regeneration, night vision, and the damage resistance that comes off of being dead.
>>45303463
>Why bother replying? I know what a vampire elder is capable of, that's why I'm asking kek
Because I wanted to point out how close to impossible it is.
>>45303486
I would've used an avalanche as an example, but the sun is also a good one.
(And no, despite multi-replying, I'm not Aspel)
>>45303425
that could work but that would require alot of work on your end. You could more easily use second sight and allow your players to buy the legacies attainment.
Or even let them play Proximis who could enter legacies giving them a new arcane to use and the attainments you want.
>>45303463
Im guessing that this Elder wants them dead because of this artifact right? So i say the best course of action would be to trick the vampire that the Troupe doesn't have the artifact any longer. Or give it to him and hope you live.
>>45303425
Look, >>45303543 here has a good idea.
If you want mages with just a few, discrete powers, along the lines of tight symbolism, you don't want actual Awakened, you want Proximi.
Does anyone know where to get character art for Promethean?
>>45303686
Crime scene photos?
>>45303425
>>45303543
You want low powered "street level" Mage?
>No Gnosis, 10 total mana
>No creative Thaumaturgy
>No Paradox
>Buying an Arcana dot costs 3xp and comes with a free rote
>Buying in-Path rotes is 1xp per dot, buying out-of-Path rotes is 2xp-per-dot+1
>Buying into a Legacy costs 5xp and 5xp per Attainment.
Might want to not allow 5 dot powers.
>>45303158
>>45303486
>>45303527
I on the other hand am Aspel. Frankly this is dumb. It's not impossible at all. It's just not the kind of thing that's as simple as "just hit him with a car".
Elder Vampire or not, chances are you can still stop him with things. Especially as an occultist. There's no doubt the possibility of finding some kind of weapon or bane to vampires. And Hunter's Night Stalkers has plenty of those. There's no reason an occultist couldn't find a ritual similar to the Blessing of Agrippa, or something like the charm of the Hototogisu or Scale of Scylla. Not to mention anyone with Resources ●●●●● could get themselves some Hod Rounds, Bleeders, and enough Victim Detonated Sun Bombs to line a room.
>>45303486
Thanks (^:
>>45303527
>because I wanted to point out how impossible it is
Thank you for teaching me about vampire elders and the abilities of mortals. I had no idea what kind of power disparity there was, but now that you've pointed it out, I regret my question.
(^:
>>45303602
In this scenario you DO NOT want to part with the artifact under any circumstance, and if the vampire acquires it he will still want to kill you.
So which 2e games are out so far? I know Vampire and Werewolf 2e are, and I know Beast and Demon use the 2e rules, but what else is out?
>>45304091
Man, just rent a couple of the more experienced Hunter cells.
>>45304271
There's the 2e rulebook thats out now "Chronicles of Darkness"
Mage 2e is in the pipeline and almost ready.
Changeling 2e is a bit farther off but also close to being done.
Promethean 2e is also nearly done, since they're doing the art for it.
Hunter 2e is being worked on.
>>45304271
i think you got all of it except beast isn't actually out yet. Mage 2E will be out in March.
>>45304345
Oh my bad, the Chronicle core isn't out yet, just the pre-print version I think.
>>45304390
It's out now. Seven extra pages, too, though I haven't been able to tell what they are.
>>45304345
>>45304390
So I pretty much got it?
>>45304349
I thought Beast was released? I don't see it on the schedule. Any idea when it'll be out?
>>45304349
>except beast isn't actually out yet
I don't think it's ever coming out
>>45304459
I thought it was Mage 2e that people were trying to claim was cancelled?
>>45304487
That's just a gimmick to pass the time.
Beast really doesn't look like it's getting a proper release
>>45304459
>>45304499
Are you really so stupid to think that Onyx Path would take everyone's money and work on a book with writing, development, art assets, and then go "eh fuck it, clearly no one wants it despite all the money it's already made" and shelve the whole project?
>>45304452
Beast is in "do our editing for us because we're poor" mode.
>>45304499
>That's just a gimmick to pass the time.
Yeah, that's where, "Trying to claim," comes into it.
>>45304499
>Beast really doesn't look like it's getting a proper release
Are you retarded?
That shit was kickstarted. It'd get released no matter how much of an abortion it turned out to be.
>>45304591
Backers already have their copy though
>>45304066
>No creative thaumaturgy
Why even bother charging for Arcana dots as separate from Rotes then?
And Legacies become shit if Improvised Spells are no longer a thing, especially if you add in "No Paradox".
>>45304608
Only the PoD copy. They're still indexing and sorting out the editing.
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/200664283/beast-the-primordial-prestige-edition/posts/1479399
I just had a realization.
>Life+Matter+Forces=Getter Rays.
It just werks.
>>45304608
Do they have their hardback? Because after that it costs them nothing to add the book to the POD catalogue. It's not like OPP does print runs anymore.
>>45304638
>Why even bother charging for Arcana dots as separate from Rotes then?
Arcana is still used for casting rolls. It's the set-up for Cruac.
>And Legacies become shit if Improvised Spells are no longer a thing
In 2e, Attainments are free and don't cause Quiescence. i.e., no spell slots. So even the ones that aren't going to cause Quiescence (which is different from but connected to Paradox) because they're 'covert' still benefit from being Attainments.
>>45303527
>>45303543
>>45303685
>>45304066
Thanks for the answers. I'll think about it in more detail.
To me it's not about low powered mages. It's about what they represent.
>Legacies are considered by many mages to be the next step in the evolution of their souls beyond Awakening. Learning a Legacy is a rite of passage into the "adulthood" of the mature soul, by which the mage chooses the mystical calling he will follow for the rest of his life
>>45304882
Yeah... But that is just icing without the cake.
>>45304663
Kickstarted books get a traditional print run. That's the actual goal of the project: to get a deluxe book with bells and whistles that a simple PoD version would not have.
>>45304925
Have you never eaten icing out of the can? It's delicious.
>>45304979
Yes, and I don't like cake.
Metaphor still stands though.
>>45305020
Well cake is part of The Lie, soooo...
>>45305088
All we know is the Lie. Seek out the truth!
Could you use clairvoyance on an archmaster whilst they're on the Road and witness the Supernal?
>>45305145
I would think your brain would explode or something.
>>45303702
Badum Tish.
>>45305088
Cringeyest dubs ever seen.
>>45305088
That meme expired long ago, buddy.
>>45305201
What if I'm not a Mage. Could I paradox the Aether?
>>45305088
Unless you create the cake with Prime.
Like that Pizza we talked about in one of the last threads.
>>45305633
Prime pizza and cake, and it's not even my birthday...
>>45305615
Well there is also the fact that the supernal nor the golden road are a place or location. They are instead ideals, so in order to travel through them you need be become an ideal. So with this logic a archmage becomes idea's, and sense only archmaster or the equitable can target ideals or concepts it would probably cut the scry connection until the archmage returns.
>>45305802
Saying they're ideals is a step to far.
They are metaphysical locations.
Different layers of reality separate from the physical.
>>45305615
But hay if your a demon they talk about going to the Watch Tower's in the demon storyteller's guide.
>>45305731
Hell with the right Arcana you can make a party where every part of you is invited. (Prime and Mind for the food and to get your Morphean, Spirit for your Goetic Demon and Death for your Ghost.)
>>45305840
Last I checked thats what happened to the supernal realms in 2E. Is it not?
>>45305863
Can you chisel people's names into them and laugh as that guy you think is a GM Cultist's soul explodes?
>>45305892
IDK, up to the storyteller. Or they make Banishers.
>>45305892
The game basically becomes Death Note at that point.
>>45305731
>>45305874
With Time, every day is your birthday.
Although you best have proficiency in Life or you'll become morbidly obese with all the pizza and cake.
>>45305957
>Life
Use space to make other people fat instead of you
>>45305957
Not to mention how old you'll get.
>>45305974
Life + Space to sympatheticaly transfer all calories you eat in excess of your needs to someone else!
You don't get fat, and some poor kids in Africa don't starve, it's win/win.
Does anyone remenber the population density ratio of human to vampires?
>>45306121
>kids getting too fat for the charity adverts
>funding gets redistributed elsewhere and infrastructure crumbles
>chubby orphan kids sold into slavery without UN protection around
Why are Mages all such bastards?
>>45306136
yeah it's more than you think but less than you'd hope.
Are we about to repeat yesterday's (admittedly fun) pizza discussion except using cake?
I think we're really going a little stir crazy waiting for Mage 2e to finally drop.
Since Dave indicated earlier today that it'll probably not be this week, I assume the goofiness will only get worse.
At least it's better than arguing over pronouns...
>>45306136
Depends, is your game exclusively Vampires, or pick n mix?
>>45306193
It's better than this morning's great debate on the nature of Luna, which Chris came in at the end of and basically called us all retarded.
>>45306136
>population density ratio of human to vampires?
I don't believe there's ever been an official answer, but the ratio usually discussed is 1 vampire for every 10,000 humans.
>>45306226
I second that.
Does anybody in-universe know whether Mage-Arcadia and Changeling-Arcadia are the same place?
>>45306193
All I know is that I want to play an Obrimos chef now.
>>45306398
They are not the same place, word of god confirmed it.
>>45306226
What's Luna's position on pizza and cake?
I assume it's not too good considering how high Primal Urge Uratha are obligate carnivores.
>>45306398
As of 2E all acanthus mages know there not the same. But the question becomes how are they connected? Because surely there must be some connection between the Gentry and the Old Gods.
>>45306413
Yes, but is there any NPC who knows that? In-universe?
>>45306475
Awesome, thanks.
>>45306193
>I think we're really going a little stir crazy waiting for Mage 2e to finally drop.
Oh No! I got the madness.
I GOT CABIN FEVER!
>>45306475
>some connection between the Gentry and the Old Gods.
Imperial Mysteries implied that Changeling Arcadia could possibly be an emanation realm where the Gentry are Old Gods kicked out of the Supernal by the Exarchs.
However, Changeling Arcadia not fitting neatly into Mage cosmology is considered a feature not a bug of the setting. Those snotty mages don't know everything.
>>45306401
In a word, go for it.
>>45306543
Mage fans held hostage - Week 74.
When will Mage 2e be released?
The world waits and wonders.
>>45306490
The right question to ask is the inverse "Does anyone know them to be the same place?" and the answer to that is no.
>>45306401
>Obrimos chef
I can see it. Golden spatula for a wand, fancy apron embroidered with angels, etc.
She would probably get fantastic ratings on the Food Network.
>>45306559
They also claim the these old gods are based in a reality from before the Fall, or after all all of humanity has died, or even parallel timeline where the Exarch ever ruled.
>>45306398
>>45306490
Mage 2e has made it clear that the concept of Acanthus mistaking the two is unlikely
>>45306826
Don't worry we got the word from "on high". Were just throwing around cool ideas and such.
>>45306193
>Since Dave indicated earlier today that it'll probably not be this week, I assume the goofiness will only get worse.
Well no shit it's not gonna be this week. I think we've got another step or two before release. Post-layout approvals, at the very least.
Is there anything about reincarnation in nWoD/CofD?
>>45307178
Nope.
>>45307178
Minor template called The Reborn in the back of Immortals.
>>45306168
You guys can ALWAYS find out a way to make mages out to be the bad guys, huh?
>>45307197
Who the heck wants to be a good guy. What's the fun in that?
>>45307178
Count mummies?
>tfw it feels like Dark Eras will never come out
I NEED it
>>45307249
They don't reincarnate, though. They're just immortal.
Sadikh are closer to reincarnated than the Arisen, but even then not really.
>tfw no Mummy/Assassin's Creed crossover
>>45306136
Based on Tokyo, for every 20 mortals per square kilometre, there's 1 vampire.
>>45307332
Thank you.
>A scythe has double the Durability of a normal item of its type and, in addition, does aggravated damage to all forms of physical supernatural creatures; anything from the immortals Harvesters hunt to monsters like changelings and werewolves. Even weapons that normally do no lethal damage do so when they become a scythe. If the weapon normally does lethal damage, half of the weapon’s lethal damage (round up) is transformed to aggravated. If the weapon normally only does Bashing damage, then one point of this damage becomes aggravated whenever the character makes a successful hit.
>If a Harvester scores a blow with her scythe that damages the target, she and the target engage in a contested roll of her Stamina + Resolve vs. the victim’s Stamina + Supernatural Advantage (if any). If the target loses, then they are incapacitated for the remainder of the scene.
Man, human or not these guy's don't fuck around.
>>45307928
What is this? What's a scythe in this capacity mean?
>>45306398
Mage 2e confirm not to be same place.
However, Road to Equinox gives you a lot of alternates scenarios for this question.
I suggest you to read Road to Equinox because it helps a lot.
>tfw finding a handful of Mummy fans on tumblr
it's a good day to be atamajakki
Is there anywhere where Helios is described in greater detail than just "he's an asshole"?
>>45308124
Harvesters are a kind of Immortal.
>>45308656
From what book? The immortal book?
>>45308186
>Mage 2e confirm not to be same place.
I knew that, but it's not like the PCs can in-character just pick up a copy of the game they're PCs in. I was wondering about who in-universe would be able to tell the characters that they aren't the same, and >>45306475
helped me out.
>>45306490
Any Acanthus who uses their Mage Sught while in the Hedge to see real!Arcadia, just like any Thyrsus who uses their Sight while in the Shadow will see that it's not the Primal Wild.
>>45307677
Additionally .002% for a direct number.
