Quite a simple question, but we don't really have an answer for it. What do you think?
>>47904324
He was, until he was written extremely poorly by several different authors in several different contradicting ways.
>>47904333
Well I think that's a big part of 40k lore in general, the contradictions. Just about every historical figure has that shroud of contradictions.Did Hitler have only one testicle? Did Gandhi forsake medicine for his own wife, causing her to die, but used it himself? It kinda makes a universe bigger when it's treated more or less like real history.
I haven't been able to read much of the Horus Hersey shit and all that new lore, so I can't really say that the Emperor was written this way or not, but from what I've heard it sounds like it.
>>47904324
In the Grim Darkness of the 41st Millennium there is no "good", there is only war.
No. The Emperor was not good. I don't know if you could call him evil, but he certainly was not a good person, just a powerful and driven one.
Doomed by his own pride, mind.
He tried his best to persue the dream he thought was beneficial for all mankind, he kept things away from his sons to protect them and to see how they grew. But as Malcador feared, he was way above the average human that he couldnt fully connect with them, like the need of humans to believe in something greater than themselves. For him it was easy to be atheist as he was the base of all human religions, and he was powerful beyong belief for the ordinary human. He was more like a space Julius Ceaser: good at war and bringing peace, but flawed due to still being a human.
>>47904324
>no real answer
False.
Given "good" is subjective, if you mean "good" in the sense that 40k's developers have explicitly stated that the human race would be extinct without His guidance and protection then, yes.
The Emperor is "good for humanity" - no matter how many snowflakes moan about the "tone" taken by the only known entity capable of single-handedly preserving trillions of judgemental - and ungrateful - human arses. tl;dr:
In the 41st century, genocide is still considered "bad" - at least by the victims ...
is space travel good for an interstellar empire?
>>47904437
No. The Horus Heresy stuff is all written from first person views of people who were there, and it still doesn't make any sense.
He appears to be full blown "all according to keikaku" at times, and then complete retard other times. He behaves like a complete and obvious autist with no idea how human beings function, and yet people constantly fall at his feet like he's perfect.
The Emperor and the Primarchs are by far the worst parts of the whole HH, because human beings cannot into writing posthuman ubermench.
>>47904324
Emperor was Lawful.
In Warhammer Lawful way, not D&D Lawful-Something way.
>>47904324
Yes, but he's not the merciful kind of good.
>>47904437
what you're saying is optimistic and i wish you were right but it's actually just GW being bad at writing
>>47905744
More like old testament good than new.
He is all into his smiting of smut.
ND wouldn't last very long in his presence
>>47905142
>The Emperor and the Primarchs are by far the worst parts of the whole HH, because human beings cannot into writing posthuman ubermench.
This. I got the 2nd Horus Heresy book and fuck I hate how Horus is written in it. First he's a total bro and then suddenly lel I kill yoo xd xd xd
Well, I guess Horus died on Davin.
>>47904333
This.
Empy well written is beautiful and tragic.
>>47904324
Everyone is bad guy in 40k, stop this shit already
>>47904324
he was as good as his surroundings allowed him to be
>>47904324
I thunk pic related is pretty much on point on the subject.
>>47904324
Ultimately yes because his end goal was peace and prosperity for a united Human race. And he spent 10,000 years in agony to protect humanity. But yeah, his arrogance and hubris cost him.
>>47904324
The Emperor was a conquererm...
Different from Horus (in his good times) he was xenophobic
>>47906206
>And Chaosfags worship Horus for this.
>>47904324
Obviously. Just look at His teachings.
>>47906206
>>47906294
That image ignores a lot of the really, really, really stupid shit the Emperor pulled because it ruins the idea that everything just fell apart despite the Emperor. Nikaea was a colossal mistake that fully turned one legion to the traitor's side, any idiot with even a modicum of sense would realize that Angron and Curze were going to be trouble before long, and the way the whole Lorgar/Chaos situation was handled was beyond retarded.
>>47904324
As depicted in the HH series he is a caricature of an internet Fedora-lord going full autist.
Add to this being the most powerful but stable and sane psyker in human history.
Add to that a master race mentality dialled up to 11.
So no. By every measure he is bad. Bad in his hypocrisies, bad in his statesmanship, a bad diplomat, a bad man by any modern sense of ethics or morality and an all around bad human. By which I mean he is a bad human and bad at being a human.
The HH tries to claim he is best at everything ever but all we see is a petulant child with powers of a hellenic god. The only way to bring the two together in a cohesive way is to think of it as the Dear Leader of North Korea in the far future.
>>47906356
Neither Angron or Curze were responsible for the Horus Heresy. The one mistake that the Emperor was treating the Primarchs as men instead of children that needed to be babysat and consoled.
>>47906367
>The HH tries to claim he is best at everything
This never happened. In fact, every claim to this has been made by a post-Heresy source, written by an Imperium that's completely dominated by the Ecclesiarchy and has had thousands of years of historical purging and revision. Faggots are just mad their Baptist interpretation of 40k lore isn't accurate.
>>47906367
>As depicted in the HH series he is a caricature of an internet Fedora-lord going full autist
Basically every religion he started turned genocidal over the opinions of one man interpreting his teachings against another
>Add to this being the most powerful but stable and sane psyker in human history.
No shit. Psykers were the Big E's ultimate endgame plan for Humanity, but the visible psykers now were all unstable outliers and walking Chaos portals.
>Add to that a master race mentality dialled up to 11.
When the Fall happened and the Human Empire collapse, every single xeno species that enjoyed the protection of DAoT Humanity immediately turned on their protectors. Bartering and treating humanity like cattle or merchandise. Big E's simply looking out No.1.
>>47906615
>Psykers were the Big E's ultimate endgame plan for Humanity
Not true. They were a stopgap measure until the Human Webway portal could be built. But after that project collapsed, an alternative was needed.
>>47906356
>Angron and Curze were going to be trouble before long
And yet they were still his children. They were born from parts of him. They WERE him, in some ways, or were aspects of him.
Which raises the question of what the two lost Primarchs did that finally made him cross that line. It took ultimate realisation of everything Horus was and had done to make him cross it with him.
Perhaps the two lost Primarchs were why he took so long against Horus, or in dealing with the Heresy. He lost two of his children. Could he accept losing a third?
>>47906636
Isn't there still that fluff about humanity being in the middle of developing into a fully psychic race?
Sure, a human Webway would remove reliance on the Warp, but humanity is still evolving, the Emperor is still the end point of that evolution. A race of Emperor-level beings.
>>47906367
>bad in his statesmanship
running and maintaining a galaxy wide Empire single handely is quite a feat though
>a bad diplomat
He didn´t bulldozer his way through the Great Crusade only ya know. To successfully annex whole worlds without bloodshed is pretty good.
>a bad man by any modern sense of ethics or morality
When the galaxy only wants to enslave/kill off every human, the normal thing to do is to drop your SJW beliefs.
>all around bad human
I agree.When you literally are a walking god amongst peasants for 30000 years you probably lose sense on basic human needs.
>>47906615
>Basically every religion he started turned genocidal over the opinions of one man interpreting his teachings against another
So he decided to start a totally-not-religion personality cult, skip all the benefits that a benevolent faith brings and just jump straight to the fanatical genocide.
>. Psykers were the Big E's ultimate endgame plan for Humanity, but the visible psykers now were all unstable outliers and walking Chaos portals.
Psychic powers on a large scale is not a viable evolutionary path for humanity. Psykers are not a survival trait in a universe with thirsting gods who think they are delicious. A psychic caste would have been better. Culling them to keep the lighthouse shining is probably one of the more beneficial things the Imperium is doing for humanities long term survival. Sad though it is.
>When the Fall happened and the Human Empire collapse, every single xeno species that enjoyed the protection of DAoT Humanity immediately turned on their protectors. Bartering and treating humanity like cattle or merchandise. Big E's simply looking out No.1.
Humanity was having Terminator + Zombie + Demon + Mad Max apocalypse at the time. can't see us making friends easily in that rabid dog state.
Also the Emperor's method of negotiating access to the webway with the elder can be summed up thusly.
>Give me knowledge and access to your greatest strategic asset, demilitarize all of your forces and submit to a registration as an Imperial vassal people.
So whats in it for us?
>I won't exterminate you all to the last man woman and child today.
No thanks.
>Foul Xeno! Your treachery knows no bounds and you are now destined for extinction at our hands!
>>47906568
>Neither Angron or Curze were responsible for the Horus Heresy
No, but leaving Angron in charge of a legion was absolutely retarded, and it was obvious that both of them had some troubling shit going on.
>The one mistake that the Emperor was treating the Primarchs as men instead of children that needed to be babysat and consoled.
But he didn't treat them like men. He generally tried to treat them as inhuman automatons that would do what he wanted without questioning, or feeling, or thinking. The Emperor's biggest mistake was that he kept shit secret when he shouldn't have. Hey, Magnus, Lorgar, there are some evil xenos creatures in the warp that like to trick people and may or may not have a personal vendetta against us due to me double crossing them. Hey, Horus, I need you to take over the Crusade so that I can completely revolutionize our means of space travel. Boom, Heresy averted.
>>47906705
Except the Emperor apparently gave exactly zero shits about the Wolves going renegade and trying to murder Magnus. BL doesn't need apologists trying to excuse their shitty writing.
>>47906969
Not so fast. Had Emps let slip the Web way project before everything was in place, the entirety of the imperium's navigators would have quit on the spot, stranding billions in the warp or in various systems with no means to resupply. They go into this in the new scar book, path of heaven
>>47907128
I really live the fact that one author did more to explain dumb fluff in one book that 10 years of HH combined.
>>47906754
>running and maintaining a galaxy wide Empire single handely is quite a feat though
Malcador and his administrators ran the Imperium.
>He didn´t bulldozer his way through the Great Crusade only ya know. To successfully annex whole worlds without bloodshed is pretty good.
Saying Join me willingly or receiver Nukes/Thunder Warriors/Space Marines is not diplomatic finesse.
>When the galaxy only wants to enslave/kill off every human, the normal thing to do is to drop your SJW beliefs.
SJW beliefs are anything other than multiple genocides now?
>When you literally are a walking god amongst peasants for 30000 years you probably lose sense on basic human needs.
I'll agree with you on that one. But he had people to advise him who did understand basic human needs. He just chose to ignore them because what they were saying didn't fit his world view and he was unadaptable.
I've got this somewhere, not sure if it's accurate, but whatever.
>>47904324
Of course he is protecting the mortal realms from the gods of chaos.
Thats a pretty fucking good deed imo
(sanguinor picture is irreverent but it looked good.)
I think its a matter of view
I have indulged myself for 4 Years in the Lore of 40K and it got pretty philosphical.
The Imperium says that the Emperor is the one true God of humanity and the savior with the ultimate masterplan
Chaos in opposion says that the Corpse-Emperor is the ultimate Dictator and all his Actions are only to extictinct, replace or enslave humainity.
>>47906636
>>47906718
>Isn't there still that fluff about humanity being in the middle of developing into a fully psychic race?
Yes, in every BRB since 4th ED. You casual scum should just jump back to /v/ where you belong.
In 999 41K, humanity is on the brink of a species wide psychic evolution that will result in a golden age of wonderment and an age of Eternal Chaos. The Emperor is guiding humanity through this evolution while Chaos seeks to hijack it.
>>47906928
>Psychic powers on a large scale is not a viable evolutionary path for humanity. Psykers are not a survival trait in a universe with thirsting gods who think they are delicious. A psychic caste would have been better. Culling them to keep the lighthouse shining is probably one of the more beneficial things the Imperium is doing for humanities long term survival. Sad though it is.
see >>47909511
This is your last warning casuals. I am sick of your shit. Go back to /v/
The resulting new psychic race of humanity would be resistant to Chaos and won't need the Emperor to protect them. Think Perpetuals.
>>47909542
The Emperor in this new stupid fluff is not Chaos proof.
He has the best interests of humanity at heart, but it still fucks over a lot of people.
>>47904324
Of course he is you fucking heretic
>>47906969
>Wolves going renegade and trying to murder Magnus
Not true fagtron, Horus told Russ to kill Magnus and since Horus was the fucking Warmaster he believed him
>>47910063
So Russ did the will of a traitor and weakened the Imperial war effort considerably as a result.
Ignorance is no excuse.
>>47910166
You're a moron, no one knew that Horus was a traitor at that point
>>47909848
The Emperor in this new stupid fluff will simply go kaputz when he finally croaks and all the galaxy will be torn apart in warp storm eternity.
>>47910197
What the fuck does that have to do with anything?
This is the Imperium. Ignorance is not an excuse. Innocence is irrelevant.
Russ fucked up to a degree that would have landed anyone else the penal legion at best, death sentence most probable and servitorhood at worst.
>>47909454
The fact of the matter is, even despite new fluff and the retarded novels, the Emperor tried to get all of humanity from underneath a hard place to becoming master of the hard place - turning the galaxy from the great devourer of human souls to mankind's bitch slave. What he had to do to make this impossible feat possible, the lives ruined in the process, the races and civilizations destroyed to achieve it, and whatever damnation the future holds pales in comparison to the only other alternative for the galaxy; being a neverending Old Night without hope.
And thats really what the Emperor represents - hope. Hope that one day, all this madness will end.
>>47910304
By your logic, Guilliman is guilty of slaughtering his own legion for marshaling his legion to Calth.
>>47910374
I haven't read that book but Dorn, had he been anyone else, would have been relieved of command after the Iron Cage.
>>47910394
I thought you were discussing the logic of association with Horus' actions, not general ineptitude.
>>47910428
Both performed actions that cost the Imperium dear. Both got away Scott free.
>>47909848
New fluff? Fucking newfag that's from 3th ED and gets copypasted all the way to 7th ED.
Get out, /v/!
>>47910479
They were damned to be protectors of a realm which has lost its Emperor, doomed to die untimely and bloody deaths in the embrace of their enemies.
>>47910563
Doran didn't have to do the Iron Cage. That was him being a retard.
>>47910304
>>47910394
>>47910479
>>47910693
You're a fucking retard
Terrible and powerful Emperor! We, your unworthy servants, give praise! For only through your grace and benevolence may we truly reach enlightenment! And deserve our praise you do, for we are one! Ere you ascended, you walked among us, great Emperor, not as god, but as man!"
"To you we give praise! We are but maggots, writhing in the filth of our own corruption! While you have ascended from the dung of mortality, and now walk among the stars!"
"But you were once man! Aye! And as man, you said, 'Let me show you the power of Empire, born of the Terra, where my breath is long winter.' 'I breathe now, in royalty, and reshape this land which is mine. I do this for you, Red Legions, for I love you. Aye, love. Love! Even as man, great Emperor cherished us. For he saw in us, in each of us, the future of Mankind! The future of Galaxy! And there it is, friends! The ugly truth! We are the children of man! Emperor is the true god of man! Ascended from flesh, to rule the realm of spirit! The very idea is inconceivable to our Xeno enemies! Sharing the heavens with us? With man? Ha! They can barely tolerate our presence in Galaxy! Today, they take away your faith. But what of tomorrow? What then? Do the Xenos take your homes? Your businesses? Your children? Your very lives? So rise up! Rise up, children of the Empire! Embrace the word of mighty Emperor, he who is both man and Divine!"
"For we are the children of man! And we shall inherit the heavens and earth! And we, not the Xenos or their toadies, will rule Galaxy! Forever!"
>>47904324
He's an evil little shit, but so is everyone else.
No. "Good" is the Emperor
>>47906754
>running and maintaining a galaxy wide Empire single handely is quite a feat though
No, it's just plain stupid. Hire bureaucrats to do that for you. You're the superhero/god-king so go punch Chaos in the face and leave administration to bean counters.
>>47910197
Magnus knew and told his dad.
Dad gave Russ orders to bring Magnus along.
Russ listened to Horus instead.
Well done wolf fag.
>>47911044
Evil? Questionable. Little? I fucking doubt it.
>>47910920
Epic come back bro.
Please tell us how Dorn being told that the Iron Cage was a trap then walking into is intentionally wasn't a stupid idea.
He had the best of intentions is all I can say. Had to do some evil to move towards the better good, over estimated the few people he could almost call a peer.
In the end he was just a person and made mistakes.
>>47910693
Of course he didn't have to but saw it as a giant pain glove to test his legion against. Look at Amit after the codex crisis, he was bitter as fuck but didn't have his own primarch to look to and Dorn saw that almost all his legionnaires would have held the haborred the same feelings.
>>47912453
And regardless on how fucked up the Imleriums current t state is, the galaxy is 1000 times better than it was in the Old Night for people
>>47906928
He wanted to build a religion that wasn't based off of idols and gods because chaos usually found a way to slip in there and corrupt it.
>>47912453
This. However, even if he was not to tell them about the Webway project, Emps should've most certainly told Magnus and Lorgar about Chaos once he got to meet them. Those two had the highest probability of getting involved in a Chaos fuckup.
>>47912552
So he decided to set up something that idolized himself as a totally-not-god-honest-you-guiz.
Everyone who saw through the Emperor's glamour though he was shit. One man even went so far as to weigh the options and decided burning to death was a better option than being on his side. This is a big part of why.
>>47910304
The Emperor had Russ rally his entire legion, an army of Custodes and Silent Sisters, and a massive warfleet to take Magnus in. He knew Magnus was likely to resist and that Russ would have had to attack the Thousand Sons to get Magnus in chains. Why would Russ who didn't know about Magnus' importance of the Golden Throne, and having heard the Emperors explicit command that Magnus and his Legion would be wiped out if they used sorcery at Nikaea, think about a change to his orders directly from his Warmaster?
Magnus' space marines were already written off, the Emperor only wanted his psychic battery after it ruined the webway.
>>47912696
And Russ still did the bidding of a champion of Chaos over the desires of the Emperor to the detriment of the Imperium.
"But I didn't know" is not an excuse that carries any weight in 40k and the Emperor wasn't known for his sense of fair play or forgiving nature.
Had a mere mortal man fucked up so hard they would have been executed.
Yes it was an honest mistake. That doesn't matter.
>To be a man in such times is to be one amongst untold billions. It is to live in the cruelest and most bloody regime imaginable.
It's right there in the intro page to everything.
>>47912777
Well space marines are given more lee way. Also I'm pretty sure there have been times where Imperial guard forces have fought each other because one of them got bad orders from a heretic, and they later teamed up to purge the guy.
>>47904324
Within the context of Imperial morality, the Immortal God-Emperor is not "good", He is what DEFINES "good". "Good" is what He wills, and Evil is what tries to oppose His will.
For the rest of the galaxy though he's just one nasty motherfucker, but it's not like we care about your opinion, you xenophiliac asshole.
>>47906367
>a bad man by any modern sense of ethics or morality
Good thing he's not really a man and is not judged as a man, then.
>>47911814
This.
>>47912655
Counterpoint - Emperor was unaware of the deals Magnus had already performed under the tutelage of the Prosperian scholars he was raised by, as well as the massive deal he made with birdman to save his legion. Emps informing him of the nature of Chaos could have provoked one of two possible results - either Magnus would figure that he was in too deep already to pull out of the deal and just make more to supercharge his legion, believing that he could get him and his legion out when Tzeentch came to collect, or he would have immediately tried to pull out of the deal, thus sealing the fate of the TSons to the fleshchange and leaving the Imperium down a legion and a Primarch with nothing to do.
On Lorgar's side, wasn't the religion on Cholchis designed to directly worship the Chaos gods prior to his arrival? Considering he grew up in that religion, took his two most trusted advisors, Kor-Phaeron and Erebus, from that religion, and marshal over half his legion from that same world? If Emps told him of Chaos's existence, wouldn't that prompt the Cholchisian elements of the WB to go against the Emperor in service to their now-proven gods, thus prompting a rebellion and subsequent purge like the IInd and XIth, slowing down the crusade even more?
>>47913263
>Good thing he's not really a man and is not judged as a man, then.
He always denied that he was a god so he doesn't get the Zeus Pass.
If he wanted to be the leader of mankind then he should at bare minimum be judged as a man and as an exemplar to follow for trillions of followers be judged all the more stringently.
In which he comes up very short in every way that matters save raw power.
In every measurable way he is an insufferable tosser in gaudy armour remarkable only for being a powerful psyker.
Had he kept hold of the Zeus Card he could have been judged as a god and as such would have come to the conclusion that he's a tosser but less of a tosser compared to the alternatives.
>>47913299
In both those cases it would have brought the problems to a boil much sooner.
As it was the forces of Chaos had time to fester and worm and corrupt its way across a lot more ground and could strike at their convenience.
>If I tell my sons to stick their fingers in their ears and hum really loudly the sharks will ignore them
>>47913334
>He always denied that he was a god
And we don't judge him as a god. We judge him as a leader and an icon.
>If he wanted to be the leader of mankind then he should at bare minimum be judged as a man
No. The whole point of judging leaders is that they are judged based on how they acted in the moral context of their responsibility, which concerns lives of many, and thus largely transcends the morality of one man, who is only responsible for his own life. Harry S. Truman could be a very sympathetic dude or he could be an inhuman machine, but nevertheless we are going to judge him for the bombs and not for his character.
>>47913409
>No. The whole point of judging leaders is that they are judged based on how they acted in the moral context of their responsibility, which concerns lives of many, and thus largely transcends the morality of one man, who is only responsible for his own life.
Pity he was shit at that also.
>>47912552
Stop defending that abortion of a ham-fisted fluff.
Emps trying to abolish religion despite him being intimately familiar with millenias of how humans and religion interact and how humans and societies work and how to make them follow is of the dumbest things in the heresy.
>>47913492
Dunno. Imperium is still right there, 10000 years later. Counts as a job done alright in my book.
>inb4 "Imperium happened not thanks to but despite the efforts of the guy who created it in the first place"
>>47913566
and it was forced into the earliest segment witht he last church, honestly that should have been the first hint that the HH series would be dumb
>>47913566
I don't think so. Communists also were pretty well educated guys with a good understanding of what people want, and they also tried to abolish religion. Yeah, they also failed, but the point is - idealists with a vision very well may try changing the nature of humanity to fit their vision. They don't always succeed, but it never stops them from trying.
>>47913577
The Imperium survived by embracing religion, embracing the use of psykers in war and castrating the power of super human post humans that he had created and returning power to mortal men.
Final icing on the cake is that the state religion is based on scripture written by Logar before the Emperor drove him into the embrace of Chaos.
I'm not going to say that the Emperor played no important and vital part in setting up the most awful sustainable regime in human history, quite the reverse. I'm just going to suggest that someone like Malcador or Guilliman could have done it better.
>>47913634
the trouble there is the fact that human nature cannot be changed by force, you can change individuals, but rarely how you planned to, control is fickle, and more over Control is easily confused with peace and prosperity
>>47913687
in short the aspects that are actually helping man are not what the Emperor had put in place and contradict his edicts in word and spirit
>>47912693
He didn't want to be idolized, going as far as telling every single person awe struckes by him that he was just a man. I remember one story he was playing chess and came to the realization that he wasn't going to love through the heresy.
Can't blame him for Magnus's folly which led him being chained to the throne.
>>47913699
I'm not in the mood to argue human nature and how it can or can't be changed with you. The point is - people tried, people try and people will continue trying to do exactly that.
>>47913687
>The Imperium survived by embracing religion, embracing the use of psykers in war and castrating the power of super human post humans that he had created and returning power to mortal men.
Good thing that Imperium that He built could easily do it.
>Final icing on the cake is that the state religion is based on scripture written by Logar before the Emperor drove him into the embrace of Chaos.
Doesn't matter - got sick ideology.
>I'm just going to suggest that someone like Malcador or Guilliman could have done it better.
Why, thanks, Captain Hindsight! What would we do without you?
>>47913727
Then maybe he shouldn't have gone prancing around in golden armour, covered in religious looking iconography with a halo.
He could cast illusions. Maybe he should have looked like generic everyman with whom people could relate and get a sense of "one of us" rather than always looking like a 9 foot tall chiseled featured Adonis bathed in light.
Maybe he shouldn't have called his great undertaking a Great Crusade and designed his ships to look like cathedrals.
Maybe he shouldn't have intentionally created a Personality Cult that would cause a hapy little trouser accident in a member of the Kim dynasty.
>Can't blame him for Magnus's folly
No that is true. I can blame him for handling it and other things poorly.
>>47913826
Amalathians are right. It all went Just As Planned.
>>47913773
>Good thing that Imperium that He built could easily do it.
Which wasn't his intention
>Doesn't matter - got sick ideology.
That also proved he was completely and utterly wrong
>Why, thanks, Captain Hindsight! What would we do without you?
Make the same shitty mistakes over and over and over and over again down the millennia because people don't pay attention. Like embracing warlordism as a viable substitute for delegation, diplomacy and efficient administration.
>>47913881
>Which wasn't his intention
Nobody gives a flying fuck about His intentions, even the faithful, who recognize them as unfathomable. What we judge here are the results.
>That also proved he was completely and utterly wrong
Good thing that creating the Imperium is not a Jeopardy! episode.
>Make the same shitty mistakes over and over and over and over again down the millennia because people don't pay attention
Someone said above that you can't change human nature by force, which justifies people harvesting rake handles with their faces.
> Like embracing warlordism as a viable substitute for delegation, diplomacy and efficient administration.
But it IS a viable substitute for delegation, diplomacy and efficient administration. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it's not true.
>>47913619
And all because McNeill is a card-carrying fedora.
>>47913634
That's because commies were, as you said, young idealists, not jaded, millenia old shamans that have personally founded massive movements and religions. Literal Jesus-Mohamed-Buddha acting all "why are people attached to religion?" is beyond retarded.
>>47913826
>He could cast illusions. Maybe he should have looked like generic everyman with whom people could relate and get a sense of "one of us" rather than always looking like a 9 foot tall chiseled featured Adonis bathed in light.
I can imagine trying to make people not see such a description as a god was an attempt to make humans see nothing as a god
>>47904324
No.
He embodied both the good and the bad in mankind. His xenophobia and hubris were powerful motivators in his personality, ultimately eclipsing his more benign traits.
>>47913973
>>47913973
Pointing at something that looks like, sounds like, acts like and smells like a hippo and telling me its not a hippo is not going to make me think its not a hippo and want to give it a pat on the head.
I am rather attached to my arms and would like this to remain the case.
>>47913958
>And all because McNeill is a card-carrying fedora.
True. Faggot is so damn cringeworthy.
>That's because commies were, as you said, young idealists
Lenin, Trotsky, Kirov, Dzerzhinsky, Kamenev, Zinovyev and the rest of the Fun Party were anything but young by the time of revolution. Stalin was an Orthodox Christian cleric by education for maximum irony to the boot.
> jaded, millenia old shamans that have personally founded massive movements and religions
N O T C A N O N
> acting all "why are people attached to religion?" is beyond retarded
Not doing that, but rather putting an effort to make people less reliant on religion. Or making a ruse with the opposite intentions. We'll never know.
>>47913881
Don't bother dude.
You're arguing with someone who capitalizes the h in 'his' when referring to a fictional Conan/Dune riff made up by a bunch of anti-establishment Brits in the 70's. There is absolutely no way that this guy will ever bow to reason and admit that the Emperor was an incompetent prat who succeeded only in dooming mankind to the most miserable, brutal regime imaginable.
>>47914071
>Pointing at something that looks like, sounds like, acts like and smells like a hippo and telling me its not a hippo is not going to make me think its not a hippo
But imagine that it's someone's dream job to make you believe that hippo is not a hippo. And he has a big gun. How long does he have to hold you at a gunpoint before you believe that hippo is not a hippo, 2+2=5 and there are 3 lamps?
>>47914120
>succeeded only in dooming mankind to the most miserable, brutal regime imaginable
You're saying that as if it's a bad thing.
>>47914139
If it's a hippo it would take more than a fucking gun holy fuck yes it would.
If it's a choice between give the hippo a hug and give billy two barrels a good look at my tonsils then I'm taking my chances with the quick way of dying rather than getting chewed up.
>>47912259
Wrong.
The novels make it clear that Russ attempted to take Magnus back alive despite what Horus said.
Magnus wanted to die by Russ but changed his mind at the very end about dying and fought to protect his last thousand sons but got his back broken for the effort.
Now stop being a cunt. We can the books with us, anon. There is no point in lying.
And by the way, the Emperor did not believe Magnus because he delivered no proof. Accusation with no basis does not fly with the Emperor.
>>47914222
>If it's a hippo it would take more than a fucking gun holy fuck yes it would.
Okay. Make it TWO GUNS! HELD TOGETHER BY DUCT TAPE! Huh, huh?
>>47914181
humankind doesn't deserve extinction and torment for the mistakes of a few men
>>47914275
It's a hippo.
No gun, guns or combination of gun-guns duct tape or fastening substance of choice regardless is ever going to persuade me to get in the hippo tank.
Some people would but then some people also jump off of cliffs into shallow jagged rock filled water for entertainment and I would take my chances with jagged rocks.
>>47914261
Wasn't the emperor aware of Horus' betrayal when Magnus tried to warn him?
Wasn't the point that he knew everything and considered the fact that Magnus had ruined his webway as more important than the warning?
>>47914340
and some people ride hippos for fun only to be randomly killed by them years later
>>47913826
Him looking the role of The Emperor kept shit in check, look at malcador when he tried to reprimand logar. Got his shit smacked in. When a 15 foot tall God looking mother fucker floats down from space and tells a planetary leader to join his cause, he's real likely to do it over some average Joe asking.
>>47913619
Are you actually implying The Last Church introduced the idea, or just referring to the particular way that story presented it?
>>47914313
More like the whole galaxy doesn't deserve it.
The Imperium is like a huge sinking ship dragging mankind and the rest of the Milky Way down as it plummets into the depths.
Whatever the Emperor was he was a misogynist dick for not making female Primarchs and female space marines.
If he had done so, things probably wouldn't have turned out so bad.
>>47914365
Not if that Average looking Joe has more ships in orbit than visible stars and a bunch of big dudes in power armour that aren't going to stop sipping daintily from their tea cups for anything less than anti-tank weaponry.
Also he could just brain rape them into submission like he seemed to do to anyone else he needed to agree with him.
>>47914349
He didn't know, he locke d himself under the Imperial Palace which was pretty much a blind spot to the galaxy for 30 some years.
>>47914406
I disagree.
It's canon that there were a lot of empires that weren't slaves or total shitshows. The Great Crusade just rolled over them, and now they're shitshows.
>>47914349
>Wasn't the emperor aware of Horus' betrayal when Magnus tried to warn him?
If he knew then he didn't tell Russ about it.
Russ in the novel was discussing the content of Mangnus's message with his advisers which means that the Emperor told him of what happened. Russ didn't believe what's in the message and took it as evidence that Magnus has gone rogue.
>>47914424
He was still psychic, you know. Plus he had Malcador.
>>47914424
>>47914419
He could have easily done that with every planet he came across but his whole shtick was that he wanted regular humans to be able to run the galaxy, not him or his demi god sons.
It would have been much harder to keep planets in check if the only reason they submitted in the first place was because they were afraid of retribution, look at curzes philosophy.
He gave the galaxy a figurehead to get behind, that figure head needed to look like it could do anything.
>>47914313
>humankind doesn't deserve extinction
It doesn't look like it's going extinct any M soon.
>and torment
Most existing ideologies, religious or secular, agree that human existence is suffering.
>>47914340
>No gun, guns or combination of gun-guns duct tape or fastening substance of choice regardless is ever going to persuade me to get in the hippo tank.
Even if it's a gun that shoots knives? Knives that stab you in the balls with smaller knives?
>>47914427
At least they are shit shows with people in charge contributing the the imperium and not some alien. There's still a large portion of the galaxy that's completely ignorant to the turmoil that's plaguing the imperium and are generally a good place to live.
>>47914461
He was a pskyer locked behind an anti psychic wall so he could focus on his work. There's a reason magnus couldn't get in contact with him.
>>47914462
In the emps defense 30 years probably felt like a blink of the eye to him.
>>47914427
>It's canon that there were a lot of empires that weren't slaves or total shitshows
And it's canon that many worlds of the Imperium are currently not shitshows.
>>47914521
I'd rather have some shit head human in charge than some fucking xeno. At least you can tell why the dude is doing what he does and understand his motivations rather than some unlockable agenda on the aliens mind.
>>47914479
So in effect he need a god or a god like device so like a god that it may as well be a god by another name.
And in any case the whole stick about them joining willingly was that he would nuke them into the ground and rule the rubble if they didn't join willingly.
Yes that might have been the commanders in charge doing some the demanding but they were doing it in his name, he presumable got and read reports and never discouraged it.
And if he wanted a humanity ruled by humans for regular humans you don't create a batch of supermen rule.
You train and appoint regular humans and extend their lives massively with juvinent drugs if they prove to be good at their jobs.
Eventually when your realm is stable enough you feign ill health, appoint a specially groomed successor and spend you fake twilight years as an advisor gradually distancing yourself from the spotlight. Eventually you fake your own death discreetly, pick up a new identity and carry on advising down the line of succession for the rest of time as needed.
>>47914484
Now we're getting into the complexities of stabby + shooty vs chompy. On the whole still stabby + shooty. You can pull shrapnel out and you might have working balls at the end of it all still. Much harder to extract hippo teeth if the hippo is still attached to the teeth.
>>47914564
A rare few. The vast majority of them are shitholes and that's primarily due to the Imperium's policies and ceaseless wars.
>>47914530
Did he not have a secretary? Were there no Astropaths in the palace?
>>47912777
It's not a case of "I didn't know". It's a case of The Supreme Commander of all the Imperium's forces that the Emperor himself put in charge gave him an order he stated to have come directly from the Emperor and coincides with the previous edicts of the Emperor himself. Russ has zero reason to argue with it and Horus had a history of improvising and if it meant greater victory for the Imperium.
30k isn't 40k and there is no way of knowing how the Emperor would have treated Russ or any other commander he would have put in charge of the Bunring of Prospero for that failure because the Emperor went and got himself wrecked but theres no reason to think anyone would be executed over the ordeal.
>>47904324
Yes, and those who say otherwise are either overthinking it, or think they are smart for being contrarian. He's the "Good Guy God" of the setting, even if he has some flaws.
>>47914703
Yes but The Supreme Commander turned out to be sucking Chaos Cock and that damns Russ by association.
>>47904324
I think someone told me that he was once sent to the realm of the chaos gods, and he bargained with one and betrayed him later....
Well let me just say this much:
he was not a real got at that time, just a genetic experiment.
As a mortal he struck a bargain with a chaos god.
And lo and behold humanity cannot progress, humanity is in constant war and death, All real beauty has been stamped out, and the amount of death and destruction and chaos in the galaxy is ridiculous and at levels never seen before, while peaceful alliances with other species are impossible.
And even the mere fact of LIVING has the emperor consume 0 thousand innocent souls a day from his own species he loves, without even being able to do anything about it.
Surely a fate worse than death and a personal hell.
So i don't know about you, but to me it seems he held up his side of the bargain pretty damn well, and has full on become a vessel for the chaos gods.
The Horus Heresy was probably the last attempt of rectifying this mistake.
The only hope the universe has now, is that a highranking techpriest actually "accidentally" unplugs the emperor, so he can fade or at least reincarnate should he truly be a god.
Fuck the 40k universe.
>>47904324
No.
>>47914668
His justification for waging war on humanity for humanity was that the galaxy had to be unitied. He did the same thing on Terra just at a much smaller scale.
Also he never intended space marines or even his primarchs to rule after the fighting was done, Girlyman wanted that. There were massive housing structures under the palace for the legions to stay at until they were needed.
Why do you think he started the council of Terra even though it pissed off every primarch and marine to no ends.
>>47914697
Everyone was ignorant of his betrayal, hence why the eistenstine was a pivotal event.
>>47914746
No it doesn't. 30k is not 40k. The Emperor is not a batshit insane Inquisitor. By that logic every single individual in the Imperial Army and Navy would have been damned by association since they were all ultimately taking orders from the Warmaster.
>>47914688
>The vast majority of them are shitholes
The vast majority of them were even worse shitholes prior to that.
> primarily due to the Imperium's policies
Such as...
>ceaseless wars
The only reason many worlds enjoyed a relatively peaceful existence for awhile was the isolation of the Long Night. Once warp storms died down, separate worlds became easy piockings for deldar slavers, ork infestations, hrud migrations, daemon incursions, genestealer cults, et cetera et cetera, since no world or even a small confederation can deal with any of those on it's own. It's the fundamental issue in the galaxy - no amount of freedom high life standards matter shit when a devastating invasion if not a possibility, but more of a certainty.
>>47914746
No, it doesn't.
The Emperor did not doubt Horus despite Magnus's message. The Emperor told Russ about the message's content but he didn't say that Horus was fired from his duties as commander of the Imperium. Instead he cast the blame on Magnus alone.
The failure here is the Emperor's for not believing that Horus fell to Chaos.
>>47914775
Did those housing facilities also include communal showers with a suspicious hissing sound and nerve gassy smell to them?
Given the Thunder Warrior Pension Plan if I was a post human in his army I would be suspicious as all fuck.
Also there were only 20 primarchs so he would still have needed to have set up human administrators of post human rule.
>>47914804
>The Emperor is not a batshit insane Inquisitor
No. he was a batshit insane Emperor who made deals with Chaos and went back on them and expected nothing bad to come of it and then acting shocked when something bad comes of it.
Also further damning evidence is the mutations, paganism and extensive use of psykers in the Vacuum Dog Legion.
>>47914825
>The vast majority of them were even worse shitholes prior to that.
Source?
>Such as...
Did you really say this? Did you fucking feign ignorance to further your point you scum sucking dirtbag. Or are you just a casual who doesn't read the rulebooks?
/tg/ isn't a place for casuals. Go back to /v/.
>The only reason many worlds enjoyed a relatively peaceful existence for awhile was the isolation of the Long Night.
There existed numerous thriving human civilization during and after the Great Crusade. All of them were wiped out by the Imperium. So that throws a wrench in your argument.
>>47914853
Yes. If only someone could have given some sort of independent prior indication that he might turn.
Also did nobody file a report that the Warmaster was critically injured and left in the care of a bird shit snorting warptastic shaman?
>>47914891
The Emperor was directly responsible for all three of those things. He put the Canis Helix in Russ and his Legion and never reprimanded him for his legions beliefs or use of Psykers. Heck Russ even wanted a relocation of Fenris since he thought the Culture was a negative influence for his marines and the Emperor said no.
>>47915015
>Heck Russ even wanted a relocation of Fenris since he thought the Culture was a negative influence for his marines and the Emperor said no.
That seems too good to be true.
>>47915035
Not him.
It's from the "Wolf King" Novella
>>47914856
It's possible he was going to phase space marines out but I think they were far to numerous, independent and useful to kill off.
Probably regulated down to chapter sizes since there are a literal ton of reasons why you should keep a caste of super human warriors. Look at the beast and his whole thing.
>>47914891
I wonder what the Emperor's deal with Chaos gave him.
Just knowledge how to create primarchs, or was he actually transformed into a demigod/super-powerful psyker as implied in the horrid heresy books?
>>47915071
Cool.
Space Wolves are like my second favorite Chapter, and third favorite legion.
Makes me sad they went full Wolftard in the most recent editions.
>>47914928
>Did you really say this? Did you fucking feign ignorance to further your point you scum sucking dirtbag. Or are you just a casual who doesn't read the rulebooks?
I still say this. Brutal exploitation of many worlds is not a retarded policy but a necessity for the sake of survival of other worlds. A kid living a happy and joyful life with little worries in one place means another kid on the other end of segmentum dying in a ditch because there wasn't anyone there to produce a lasgun for him to fight with. And do I even need to explain the vital role of the League of Black Ships?
>There existed numerous thriving human civilization during and after the Great Crusade
Yeah. All the ones that were not enslaved for no good use or exterminated to a man by orks, hrud, orks, dark eldar, orks, daemons, insane chaos cults, petty warlords, or orks. I mean, we count every fucked up world when it comes down to Imperium, but for the sake of smaller civilizations we can just ignore all of them that got fucked. Don't care got mine, amirite?
>>47914760
He didn't cheat them out of power, he outright lied and stole it from them. He needed some chaos knowledge to make his primarchs.
Hence why the chaos gods were so keen to make them their champions
>>47915117
I still hate this piece of fluff. What the fuck was stopping a 40,000 year old psyker who specialized in Biomancy from making slightly altered clones of himself?
>>47915177
They arent dslightly altered clones kf himdself, they are badsically crazzy warp entities bound in fledsh. Or so it is heavily implied.
>>47914760
>The only hope the universe has now
..is for Admech to rebel, flush the emperor down the warp toilet where he belongs, ally with the necrons or awaken the void dragon and go full necron.
Then a transformed humanity can enter a new Dark Age of Technology and block out the warp completely using tech similar to the Cadian pylons.
>>47915241
>..is for Admech to rebel, flush the emperor down the warp toilet where he belongs, ally with the necrons or awaken the void dragon and go full necron.
What's the point? Necrons already went Necron, and they keep regretting that.
>>47915276
You forget, the AdMech are pants on head retarded.
And the Necrons didn't know they were going to regret it before they sold their souls to the C'tan, obviously.
>>47915276
Still better than living in militant ignorance on the edge of a literal, barely contained, hell that hungers for your soul.
>>47915294
>You forget, the AdMech are pants on head retarded
Nah. They just follow a huge variety of weird Gnostic philosophies.
>people ITT unironically considering Imperium to consist entirely of close-minded dogmatists
>because they are too much of close-minded dogmatists to consider anything different from our contemporary world to be anything but retarded.
>And the Necrons didn't know they were going to regret it before they sold their souls to the C'tan, obviously.
Well, now we know that we're gonna regret that, as losing human nature and turning into soulless machines will deprive mankind of any reasoning for existence, making it into a pointless abomination of unjustifiable cruelty, which is exactly what the loyalist AdMechs are trying to avoid by upholding Human technology and exterminating techno-heresies.
>>47915370
Yeah, having that same hell but with a "-" put in front of it within your very essence is so much more preferable.
>>47912429
You're comparing apples to an baseball, they have nothing to do with each other
>>47915094
Battle of moloch a perpetual that was with him said that when he entered the chaos portal he was more than a man but when he came out he was god
>>47914349
All I know is the Emperor was willing to forgive Horus up until the battle of Terra. He and Malcador both considered Magnus beyond redemption or pity
>>47915555
that seems to just stink of favoritism, why single out magnus when lorgar has much more blame? does he just hate himself for being a psyker and thus single out Magnus for resembling that part of himself?
>>47915555
>Quads of the Emperor
Magnus confirmed to be shit
>>47915641
Well to be fair no one knew what Lorgar was up to, had a whiff of what he was up to since the Emp's reprimanded of him reached the Emperor's or Horus' pre corrupted ears you can bet Russ would have been set lose on the Word Bearers
>>47915641
Lorgar and Horus were at least still themselves. Lorgar just mostly abandoned commanding his Legion, and Horus got a fuckton of rather radical ideas, but they were doing their things, for the reasons they believed in. Magnus meanwhile was the biggest tool in the history of tools. Literary a walking and talking device with a comfy "Manipulate Me 5000" control board set up for Tzeentch.
>>47915641
It's because Horus was unwillingly corrupted and could be redeemed, Magus just gave his father the finger and wrecked his favorite toy to prove a point. A bad point at that.
>>47915641
Of course it's favoritism. The Emperor could trust guys like Dorn, Horus and Russ. Magnus on the other hand has proven himself multiple times to be untrustworthy
>>47910197
True, but that was not ordinary campaign, if you are gonna kill one of your fucking BROTERS PRIMARCHS, you may double check with dad too, to confirm what he says. I refuse to believe that he didn`t have one single member of the telepathica and coudn't send a message to Terra.
>>47914261
>The novels make it clear that Russ attempted to take Magnus back alive despite what Horus said.
Did you read the novels? Does orbital bombardment that destroyed the whole fucking planet looks like he is "trying" something? and then dropping with all his legion plus the Custodians and the Sisters of Silence killing everthying on their way looks diplomatic to you? Could he not send envoys first?
Russ was a bloodthirsty superstitious barbarian that was only too happy to kill a brother that he hated. And that would have made Magnus the third brother he killed.
When it comes to be a leader, he was barely better than Angron. The shoes of a Primarch were too big for him.
>>47916338
>you may double check with dad too, to confirm what he says
That's dumb, the CEO tells you to do something at work do you go ask every other board member and the fucking president of the company if you should listen to the CEO?
>>47915111
>Brutal exploitation of many worlds is not a retarded policy but a necessity for the sake of survival of other worlds.
Read that except again, you retard.
>"immense populations enslaved and literally worked to death to produce materials no longer needed."
Yeah, that sounds like a real problem of necessity. CANON, like it or not, is that the Imperium does most of what it does not out of necessity, but out of inertia and doctrine. The machine is to big and too stupid for anyone to stop, and much of it is doing nothing good for anyone.
>the rest of your argument
The point is that there were numerous thriving human empires that did not require the Emperor's retarded xenophobic cult to function. The Imperium should have learned from them rather than crushing them under billions of misspent lives.
>>47916338
>>47916693
>hey anon, I'm going to need you to organize that closet
>sure thing boss
>new big boss rolls around
>hey anon, I need you to throw everything in that closet out
>Uh, I better check with the President to see what to do...
lol, Magnusfags are dumb
>>47915797
>Literary a walking and talking device with a comfy "Manipulate Me 5000" control board set up for Tzeentch.
Thanks anon, you made me laugh.
I hope Tzeentch at least gave him a qt feathered waifu for his troubles.
>>47915641
Because the Emperor never learned how to deal with someone flat out saying "no." The Emperor had decreed no more sorcery. As far as he was concerned, that was the end of the discussion because once he ruled, nothing more of value could possibly be added. The fact that he had said it was, in and of itself, the only important point as far as he was concerned. For Magnus to then willingly continue to use sorcery was the worst atrocity imaginable. He had knowingly gone against the Emperor's order, and that was unforgivable.
It's the same way he responded to Angron. The Emperor showed up to take him away, but Angron said no. The Emperor simply couldn't handle that, it just wasn't something he could wrap his mind around because nothing like that had ever happened to him before. So the Emperor kidnapped Angron in the middle of the night instead of doing any number of smarter or more reasonable things, because he simply couldn't deal with someone refusing his commands.
>>47915555
>He and Malcador both considered Magnus beyond redemption or pity
[citation needed]
>>47916942
See also: The Last Church
In it, the Emperor shows that he clearly never learned how to make a logical argument. Probably because he never had to in his life, his psychic powers and general aura just made everyone bow to him regardless of what he said. This is a guy who always got everything that he wanted, for thousands of years, without ever having to give a good reason. So he simply never learned how to reason.
>>47916693
>>47916813
Is not a closet retard, is a fellow Primarch, you know? the sons of the Emperor? the beings that rate second in the whole galactic hierarchy, just beneath the fucking Emprah himself? not to mention is your fucking brother.
If your brother says "dad ask you to kill the little brother" don't you check first with dad to see if it is true? when you can send a message to Terra?
Russ apologists are the worst.
>>47904324
He tries his best to do good by humanity.
But he is flawed in that he has a fundamental inability to connect to, or understand what 'humanity' truly is.
The Emperor is attempting to create a selfless vision of a better world for a people he cannot truly understand or connect to on any significant level, because for him it's impossible to have a connection to most anyone because they all have but a tiny fraction of his own mental ability and they all die fast.
It'd be like trying to forge meaningful connections with a series of one hundred excitable five year olds while you're trying to work on an important project, and they're replaced every single day. You might occasionally try to have a conversation with one, but compared to you they're all impossibly stupid and ignorant, they're all going to be gone and replaced by new faces before you ever notice most of them that are there, and in the end all you can do is step in now and then to keep things from getting too out of hand and prevent them from messing up what you're working on too badly.
>>47916976
The "Sigillite" short story.
>>47917040
> This is a guy who always got everything that he wanted, for thousands of years
Thing is, the way he's written really casts doubt on the idea that he's been around for thousands of years.
Example 1: He tries to eliminate religion. Whether you think religion is a good thing or a bad thing, it is a habit that humanity has been completely unable to kick. If the Emperor had really been around for thousands of years of human history, wouldn't he know that? Yet he seemed to think that he could simply wipe away one of the longest-running human traditions with the stroke of a pen. Someone who had actually been around for thousands of years of human history would not think it would be that easy.
Example 2: When he's asked what makes him different from all the other dictators that have come and gone throughout human history, what is his answer? Does he point to thousands of years of experience, which a mortal human dictator would not have? No. He just says that he's different because "I know I'm right." Which is probably what the vast majority of dictators across history have thought. The fact that he thinks he's different simply because he knows he's right demonstrates that he doesn't actually know much about past human dictators, and it certainly doesn’t demonstrate the knowledge that thousands of years of experience would bring.
The Emperor doesn’t act anything like someone with the wisdom and experience of thousands of years of life. If anything, he sounds a lot like just one more techno-barbarian warlord, much like all the others who emerged on Terra during the long night. He was just the one with the the strongest army, so he came out on top. That’s all.
>>47904324
> Is the Emperor good
No.
From a personal standpoint, no. One need only look at how he treated his own sons to see the extent of his failure as a human being.
From the standpoint of results, also no. After spilling an enormous amount of blood to create it, the Imperium that he created exploded into a horrifying civil war. And even after that was done, the Imperium, which even in the Emperor's day was an absurdly brutal and oppressive state, slowly decayed into an even more corrupt and oppressive theocracy. The Imperium became a rotting cage that has ensured humanity's slow and painful demise as it is unable to develop or advance to counter the challenges around it.
He was a failure both as a leader and as a person.
>>47917158
Which one, The Sigillite by Chris Wraight?
>>47917564
>treat his sons
>not calling them the tools he would use to bring the galaxy to its knees
>>47917670
Yes.
>>47917244
Since we have oll pious meeting him outside Nineveh yes he is that old
>>47917040
That's because it was written by McNeil who is a new atheist and cocksucker of Dawkins
What makes me laugh is the dumb fucker has written stuff showing the power of faith does make a difference - in the ultramarines series
>>47916976
They were pissed off because they had spent millennia getting the webway project in place and now they ended up with a warp rift on earth
>>47916942
Bad writing
Compare it with how he dealt with Vulkan - agreeing to a contest - or some of the others
>>47914942
Reports come via the warp
And they are transmitted as images and impressions and dreams- especially if the chaos cunts are fucking about which they were
>>47914891
The wulfen are not mutations in the warp sense - grey Knights have certified no warp taint
>>47904324
He should have just said fuck humanity, lets bring back golden men and make a Femperor to make a new race of Emperor babies and clones.
Or just figure out how to reproduce asexually, which I suppose he could do it.
>>47914261
>and by the way, the Emperor did not believe Magnus because he delivered no proof. Accusation with no basis does not fly with the Emperor.
I wonder how that worked out for him.
>>47916813
>Equating killing someone with cleaning a closet.
That is a serious jump in logic there anon.
>>47906108
More like this please, that was really good
>>47918085
And in False Gods, the very second HH novel. Not sure how it matters though. One might think fantasy fiction should be the least surprising place to see an atheist treat religious belief as actually meaning something.
>>47904333
This. Horus Heresy ruined the Emperor.
Good fucking job GW.
WE ARE AGONISINGLY ALONE
>>47922089
The emp in the first dark angles book was by far worse tha n any Fedora tipping McNeill could write
>>47904324
Pretty knowledgeable.
Pretty stupid.
Very powerful.
Really poor social skills.
Pretty good.
>>47918107
Oh look a piece of xeno tech that rips holes in conventional reality. We have almost no idea how it works and limited ideas on how to make it semi functional.
Better start prodding it.
Where shall we experiment? How about on the most important planet in the Imperium because I can see no way that can back fire should things go wrong.
Where on Terra? Right under the most important building of course so I don't have far to walk in the morning.
I see no possible way experimenting with temperamental and insanely powerful xeno-tech we have little understanding of could possibly go wrong.
The way the Emps treated Magnus and the entire Thousand Sons was appalling, I was livid reading the novels. I mean these guys were various degrees of pacifist, they didn't even want to wage war and exterminate enemies like the yiffs, despite this they were basically pressed into service until death, told they couldn't express a fundamental part of their nature and as a reward they'd get... what? Magnus's eternal reward for his service would be sitting on a chair and being a living battery for all time, the rest of his astartes would be treated like scum for their loyalty.
No wonder they turned to Tzeentch, at least he could promise them something they actually wanted,
>>47922964
This is something no one ever seems to consider
>>47923353
With their mutations they were turning into pic related whether or not they cooperated with the rusegod.
>>47915866
Only once, his world got burned for that and most of his sons killed.
Other than that he was the closest to the Emperor, no other Primarch walked the Warp at the side of big E.
Magnus did so before they even met.
THROBBING PIPES RIBBED the walls of the vast throne room beyond. The muscles of the room were thick power cables feeding stegosaurian engines. The air was spiked with crisp ozone and bitter myrrh, and ointmented with balmy, somewhat greasy fragrances. The holiest battle banners, icons and golden fetishes flanked the arena of dedication where psykers were soul-bound. Squads of Emperor’s Companions who guarded that vast hall, a mob of tech-priests ministering to the machinery, a gaudy Cardinal Palatinate and his entourage, a red-robed High Lord of Terra and his staff – not to mention great clusters of astropaths, chirurgeons, scholastics, battlemasters: all were motionless.
The immense, soaring, tube-ridged throne resembled some fossilised, metastasised sloth crafted by some mad master of the Adeptus Titanicus. And it seemed to Jaq, though he did not know whether what he saw was true, or mere delusion instilled by that same psyker-dream, that this enormous, sacred prosthetic device, more precious by far than any gold, framed the wizened, mummified face of the God-Emperor.
Who looked not; though he saw through eyes of the mind, saw far beyond his throne room and his palace and the solar system. Who breathed not; yet he lived more fiercely than any mortal, enduring a psychically supercharged life-in-death.
‘WE ARE CURIOUS,’ came a mighty, anguished thought which itself transcended time.
‘WE HAVE FOLLOWED YOUR INTRUSION INTO OUR SANCTUARY, OUR ANTRUM AND ADYTUM.’
‘My lord.’ Jaq sank to his knees. ‘I beg to report to you before I am destroyed. I may have uncovered a major conspiracy—’
‘THEN WE WILL STRIP YOUR SOUL BARE. RELAX, MORTAL MAN, OR YOU WILL SURELY DIE IN SUCH PAIN AS WE ALWAYS ENDURE.’
>>47923866
Jaq breathed deeply, slowly, stilling the panic that fluttered under his ribs like a trapped bird. He surrendered himself. A hurricane roared through his mind.
If the story that he had thought to relate were a tangled forest – and if each event in that story were a tree – then within moments all the leaves were stripped away from all of the trees, denuding them to bare wintry twigs, to a raw basic life without the foliage of memories.
He was drained of his story; that was sucked from him in a trice, all of those leaves whirling into the mind-maw of the Master. Jaq gagged. Jaq drooled.
He was an imbecile, less than an imbecile.
He was less than a new-born baby.
He neither knew where he was, nor who he was – nor what it even meant to be a someone.
The inquisitor sprawled. All that was known to his body was distress, the gurglings of the guts, breath and light. Light from afar.
ABRUPTLY, ALL MEMORY flooded back. On that instant, each leaf sprouted anew to recloak the forest of his life. ‘WE HAVE PUT BACK WHAT WE TOOK AND TASTED, INQUISITOR’
Trembling, Jaq regained his kneeling posture and wiped his lips and chin. The previous moments were a hideous limbo, unknowable, immeasurable. He was Jaq Draco again.
‘WE ARE MANY, INQUISITOR.’ The voice boomed in his mind almost gently – if gently was how an avalanche would sweep away a doomed village, if gently was how a scalpel might strip a life to the bare aching bones.
>>47923884
‘HOW ELSE COULD WE ADMINISTER OUR IMPERIUM—’
‘AS WELL AS WINNOW THE WARP—’
‘HOW ELSE?’
The Emperor’s mind-voice, if that truly was what it was, had dissociated into several voices, as if his great undying soul co-existed in fragments that barely hung together.
‘SO DOES THE HYDRA THREATEN US?’
‘IMPERILLING OUR GREAT AND AWFUL PLAN TO STEER HUMANITY?’
‘DID WE OURSELVES DEVISE THE HYDRA?’
‘PERHAPS IN A PART OF US, SINCE THIS HYDRA PROMISES A PATH?’
‘SURELY A MALEVOLENT PATH; FOR HOW COULD HUMANITY EVER FREE ITSELF?’
‘THEN WE MUST BE MALEVOLENT TOO. FOR WE HAVE EXPELLED OUR SENTIMENTALITY LONG AGO. HOW ELSE COULD WE HAVE ENDURED? HOW ELSE COULD WE HAVE IMPOSED OUR RULE?’
‘YET BY VIRTUE OF THAT WE ARE PURE AND UNCONTAMINATED BY WEAKNESS. WE ARE GRIM SALVATION.'
Beside Jaq, the squat twitched as if he had heard himself named. At that moment did the voice resonate within the abhuman? Jaq felt that he was listening to a mighty mind-machine argue with itself in a way that no Imperial courtier had perhaps ever heard, and that no High Lord of Terra even suspected could occur. Were Meh’Lindi and Googol aware of the voices in the way that Jaq was? Or was he imagining it all, caught up in some warp-spawned delusion, yet another twist in this labyrinthine conspiracy? He sensed the fabric of time attempting to tear free, and guessed that not much longer of this strange stasis remained.
‘NOTHING THAT SAFEGUARDS HUMANITY CAN BE EVIL, NOT EVEN THE MOST STRENUOUS INHUMANITY. IF THE HUMAN RACE FAILS, IT HAS FAILED FOREVER.’
Maybe Jaq was too young by hundreds, by thousands of years, and his intellect too puny to comprehend the multiplex mind of the master who was forever on overview, whose thoughts battered in his mind. Or maybe the master’s mind had become chaotic. Not warped by the Ruinous Powers it surveyed, oh no, but divided amongst itself as its heroic grasp on existence ever so slowly weakened...
>>47923906
'WHEN WE CONFRONTED THE CORRUPTED, HOMICIDAL HORUS WHO ONCE USED TO SHINE LIKE THE BRIGHTEST STAR, WHO USED TO BE OUR BELOVED FAVOURITE – WHEN THE FATE OF THE GALAXY HUNG BY A THREAD – WERE WE NOT COMPELLED TO EXPEL ALL COMPASSION? ALL LOVE? ALL JOY? THOSE WENT AWAY. HOW ELSE COULD WE HAVE ARMOURED OURSELVES? EXISTENCE IS TORMENT, A TORMENT THAT MUST NOURISH US. EVIDENTLY WE MUST STRIVE TO BE THE FIERCE REDEEMER OF MAN, YET WHAT WILL REDEEM US?’
‘Great lord of all,’ whimpered Jaq, ‘did you know of the hydra before now?’
‘NO, AND WE SHALL SURELY ACT IN DUE TIME—’
‘YET SURELY WE KNEW. HOW COULD WE NOT KNOW?’
‘ONCE WE HAVE ANALYSED THE INFORMATION WITHIN THIS SUB-MIND OF OURS.’
‘HEAR THIS, JAQ DRACO: ONLY TINY PORTIONS OF US CAN HEED YOU, OTHERWISE WE NEGLECT OUR IMPERIUM, OF WHICH OUR SCRUTINY MUST NOT FALTER FOR AN INSTANT. FOR TIME DOES NOT HALT EVERYWHERE WITHIN THE REALM OF MAN. INDEED TIME ONLY HALTS FOR YOU.’
>>47923918
‘WE ARE AN EVER-WATCHFUL LORD, ARE WE NOT? DID YOU HOPE TO GAIN OUR UNDIVIDED ATTENTION?’
‘HOW ELSE SHOULD WE SOUL-BIND PSYKERS AND OVERVIEW THE WARP AND BEAM THE ASTRONOMICAN BEACON AND SURVIVE AND RECEIVE INFORMATION AND GRANT AUDIENCES ALL AT ONCE, UNLESS WE ARE MANY?’
‘AND YET STILL WE MISS SO MUCH, SO VERY MUCH? SUCH AS THAT WHICH GUIDED YOU HERE.’
‘OUR SPIRIT GUIDED YOU.’
‘NO: ANOTHER SPIRIT, A REFLECTION OF OUR GOODNESS WHICH WE THRUST FROM US.’
‘WE ARE THE ONLY SOURCE OF GOODNESS, SEVERE AND DRASTIC. THERE IS NO OTHER SOURCE OF HOPE THAN US. WE ARE AGONISINGLY ALONE.’
Contradictions! These warred in Jaq’s mind just as they seemed to coexist in the Emperor’s own multimind.
Was another power for salvation present in the galaxy, unknown to the suffering Emperor – concealed from him, though somehow partaking of his essence? How could that be?
And what of the hydra? Did the Emperor truly know of it or not – even now? Might he refuse to acknowledge what Jaq had reported to him?
The Emperor’s voices faded from Jaq’s mind as time tried to stretch back into shape. Grimm tugged at Jaq’s sleeve.
‘It’s over, lord. Don’t you understand?’ Yes, Grimm must have heard something – other than what Jaq heard; some simple order. ‘We gotta go, boss. We got to get out.’
‘How can a minnow understand a whale?’ Jaq cried. ‘Or an ant, an elephant? Have we succeeded, Grimm? Have we?’ Jaq’s own voice rose to a scream in that holiest of chambers, yet somehow it was hardly audible. His words echoed like a flock of screeching, ultrasonic bats.
‘Dunno, boss. We gotta go.’
‘Out, out, out,’ chanted Meh’Lindi. ‘Away-way-way.’
And then...
Tl;dr: yes.
>>47923866
>>47923884
>>47923906
>>47923918
>>47923931
I thank you for the good read. What book is this from, or is it purely a fanmade story?
>>47923965
Inquisition War.
It's a good segment but personally I don't recommend the series. In my opinon it's 800 rambling pages of the galaxy's least interesting man that really, really loses all direction after the halfway point, which is where he meets the Emperor.
Easily my least favorite of any 40k book I've read.
>>47922758
Except that's not what happened. The webway experiments were performed in research stations across the galaxy, all of which showed a great deal of success and progress. It was only after those tests that the real thing was put into place on Terra.
>>47924002
I find it so strange how /tg/ can't understand that the guy goes insane, hence his strange set of actions.
>least interesting man
He made it into the Black Library and survived Jain Zar. You're just jelly, Ahzek.
>>47914415
(You)
>>47924026
So that is exactly what happened. He used xeno-tech he still didn't full understand in the basement of the most important administration building, on the keystone world of the Imperium.
Had he known what he was doing it would have been warp-proofed like the rest of the webway.
And his whole contingency plan in case something goes wrong consisted of "nothing will go wrong because I can't imagine anything unexpected happening"
>>47924088
I get that he was going insane as the book progressed, but I didn't find that made for a compelling story.
Why should I feel invested or give a damn about them finding the super powerful magical maguffin when the main character does jack shit with it after he finds it and nearly throws the thing away on a whim.
Or how the book spends the first half building up this big conspiracy as being really important seriously guys no really, then it's just completely forgotten about and never mentioned again after all that buildup.
'He's crazy so it doesn't have to make sense' is a reason for why he acts the way he does, but it doesn't change the fact that I personally found it extremely boring and unengaging, a story that goes nowhere, characters that accomplish nothing, and just abruptly stops. It doesn't end, just stops, an ending that you couldn't have been able to tell was coming until the page it was on.
Yes I get that he was insane, I still found his story a boring, unengaging chore to read.
>>47924411
>Shirley the one psyker in the galaxy who could fuck this up would never be so moronic as to do the specific thing I said not to do! He's a primarch, for My sake!
>Welp! Guess he is that moronic. Russ, give him a good kicking and drag him back here.
>>47924465
It stopped because he died pointlessly, accomplishing nothing of import, discovering nothing, after murdering an innocent for no reason and possessing himself with two daemons at the same time. Because grimdark.
You don't have to like it, but it's one of my favorites. Ian Watson got the feel of 40k like no one else. He said he used Hieronymus Bosch to inspire him.
So, it's not to your tastes because not everyone likes that kind of book.
Don't read Dead Men Walking. It's also about futility and the insignificance of the individual.
>>47924567
Forgot to mention he Exterminatus'd a world for no reason by accident.
Him being a fuck-up is the point.
>>47922502
>Pretty good.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KVvfau1fWrI
>>47923825
>Other than that he was the closest to the EmperorThe real thing Magnus inherited from his father wasn't psychic ability, it was hubris.
>>47909979
>le epik hearsay meme
>>47919040
That's from an old book, from the Inquisitorial Wars IIRC.
