But why though

>>47055751
So according to "canon", Gwyndolin didn't die in DaS1?

>>47055764
>So according to "canon", Gwyndolin didn't die in DaS1?

No, Gwyndolin lived through Dark souls 1 and lived well after.
He was later consumed by Aldrich though, so yeah.

>>47055773
That's what I was asking, thank you for clarifying.
Why did FS include the option to kill him if they weren't going to keep it canon?
How did a sack of shit manage to trap him if he's a 'god'?

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>>47055802
>Why did FS include the option to kill him if they weren't going to keep it canon?

Who knows????

>>47055802
>How did a sack of shit manage to trap him if he's a 'god'?

That's an interesting question and I'd be delighted to answer it:

Gwyndolin had lived through Dark Souls 1 and since then had been picking up the pieces of Anor Londo and rebuilding the entire area as he heralded and guided the remaining humans and so forth: rebuilding the country in his image and in honor of his fathers legacy.

Anyway, a lot of stuff happens in between, but I'll just get to the POINT: Pontiff Sullyvhan (the guy with the duel swords) and The cult of Aldrich and Aldrich himself begin to gain more and more power and influence which finally cultivates in Aldritch wanting to EAT GODS as he's no longer satisfied with men.

Gwyndolin is either poisoned or becomes ill through natural means (perhaps the fading of the fire weakens the gods) and Pontiff Sullyvhan sees this as an opportunity to TRAP Gwyndolin inside the boss room with Aldritch so that he can consume him.

When you get to the boss fight Aldrich has half-consumed Gwyndolin from the up/inside out and Gwyndolin is a dead husk being puppeted.
Aldrich may have also eaten Nito? By the look of his "dress/gown", but I've no idea where he'd find him.

>>47055802

FS canon also says that Ornstein survived the first Chosen Undead's trip to Anor Londo, as only Smough was left to guard the citadel. Considering that different timelines and/or dimensions is canon as well, the one in DaS3 might just be a peculiar timeline in which Gwyndolin just never got killed.

As to "trap" a god, it's proven in DaS1 that gods can be killed by "ordinary" undead, so it doesn't surprise me that a powerful enough entity could just eat him and absorb his essence.

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>>47055802
The gods in DS are like the greek ones.
They are sure very powerful, but they can still be killed and they feel emotion.
Who do you mean with sack of shit?
The chosen undead? He had the power to kill him, close to the endgame he become stronger than the gods ( but on par with gwyn i think )
If you mean Aldrich, well he/she did nothing, sullyvan and the church did all the work

>>47055857
>>47055863
>>47055886
This is pretty awesome lore. Thanks for taking the time to answer it anons.
I really enjoy the multiple timelines/dimensions story element when they're done right in games, and DaS indeed seems to do it right.

And yeah I meant sullyvan. Couldn't remember his name

>>47055802
>Why did FS include the option to kill him if they weren't going to keep it canon?
Because they had to choose one or the other to be canon, and they chose the one that was both most likely to happen, and the one that made the most sense. Most players wouldn't have even found Gwyndolin, much less killed him, so it makes sense that a generic, "average" chosen undead would have gone through the storyline without killing Gwyndolin.

The Link the Fire ending is also the canon ending, despite the Dark Lord ending being an option... why aren't you whining about that?

>>47056360
>>47055802

Strictly speaking since Dark Souls has a habit of merging realities, time periods, etc.. All endings and so forth are canon in one way or another.

Time is convoluted in this land.
What's considered "Canon" is most likely what the most common outcome among the many worlds and so forth.

>>47055863
>As to "trap" a god, it's proven in DaS1 that gods can be killed by "ordinary" undead, so it doesn't surprise me that a powerful enough entity could just eat him and absorb his essence.
I mean, the entire point of Aldritch being a lord is that he was chosen for lordship due to his sheer power and badassery, not any actual lordly qualities. Why are people surprised that he was strong enough to handle Gwyndolin?

> Who do you mean with sack of shit?
I think they were referring to Aldritch's appearance, which is indeed very... "sack-of-shit" like.

Can anyone explain the point of this?

https://wwwyoutube.com/watch?v=70GgyJAF8jI

>>47056411
There's a trading crow in every souls game, and the name is a reference to a non-sense 19th century childrens' song as a way of acknowledging that there's no real theme to what you can give the crow (the previous ones liked shiny, soft, and smooth things, respectively).

>>47056360
>The Link the Fire ending is also the canon ending, despite the Dark Lord ending being an option... why aren't you whining about that?
We don't know that the CU linked the fire. We know that someone like him did, though.
Also, the "cycle" stuff seems more and more like fan-fiction. Miyazaki might be saying that until this game there were never any ages of dark, and the fire never goes out. The "cycle" stuff including ages of dark is all Vaati and ENB speculation.

>>47056411
That's the trading crow in this game. You give it certain items, and it'll give you an item in return. You can get some pretty rare stuff that way.

I'm not sure if the trading crows have any real lore significance, they're just there to give you cool shit.

>>47056441
> We don't know that the CU linked the fire. But it's a safe assumption to make, given that we know the fire was linked. And the fact remains that Gwyndolin is hard to even find in the first place, so him not having been killed is still the most likely canon outcome, regardless of who did or did not link the fire.

> Also, the "cycle" stuff seems more and more like fan-fiction. Miyazaki might be saying that until this game there were never any ages of dark, and the fire never goes out. The "cycle" stuff including ages of dark is all Vaati and ENB speculation.
Aren't we told that the Lords of Cinder have each linked the fire at some point in the past, though? Admittedly, I only half remember hearing that, so I could be wrong.

>>47056454
they really had no significance since demon souls, other than probably being the offspring of that dark souls 1 giant crow

>>47056495
No, that's actually a current point of rabid contention among the fanbase. We know some did, others may not have. Also, the Soul of Cinder isn't necessarily the CU, he could have gotten those movesets from anywhere.

>>47056495
>>47056619

>No, that's actually a current point of rabid contention among the fanbase. We know some did, others may not have.

This so fucking hard.
I was originally surprised because I was so fucking sure, but yeah, no and it makes a lot of sense why people would be so divided since the game and the characters only explicitly state Yhorm and Little Laudren to have 100% linked a flame.

The Abyss watchers and Aldrich are still up in the air- and I AM personally in the boat that neither of them linked a fire and were APPOINTED Lords of Cinder much like the Lothric princes were.

-Aldrich was appointed as a Lord of Cinder because of the immense power he obtained through consuming so many men. He never linked a flame, but he kept growing in power and size so they game him the title, the cathedral and fed him snack-rifices to keep him the fuck away from everyone else.

-The Abyss watchers were appointed as Lord of Cinder due to their martial/military might and the wolf blood that connected them to one large powerful soul. That's about it for them.

So, yeah, though, like everyone else: Who the fuck knows really, eh?

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>>47056977
>Little Laudren

Shit, sorry, *Ludleth. Little Lord Ludleth.

The Firekeeper calls him the "Little Lord", it's simultaneously adorable, but incredibly fucking disrespectful.

"Look not in bewilderment as I say… I linked the fire long ago, becoming a Lord of Cinder. If substantiation be thy want, set thine eyes upon my charred corse. This sad cadav’r. No need to be coy, have a closer look."

""I took the mantle of Lord of Cinder of mine own volition. I speak these words with pride. Choose thy fate alone. Seize it with thine own hands. All the more, should thy fate entail such foul betrayal."

I can't find the direct quote, but if you kill Ludleth he respawns asleep and in his sleep he talks about how horribly painful it was to link originally link his flame.

I can only imagine Ludleth of Courland must have literally been the last pick- The VERY last resort to link the flame and he manned up and accepted the responsibility dispite his personal flaws.

He's easily the bravest Lord of Cinder in my eyes.

>>47056977
Eh, I don't know. Aldrich was one of the resurrected LoC. But whatevs.

But the Watchers in my opinion did Link The Fire
>>47057017
Ludleth wasn't 'picked' he /chose/ to Link The Fire, I don't think anyone asked him to(also he probably broke time doing it). Plus it fits with his whole 'choose your fate, take it with your own hands, no matter what.

How did Aldrich eat Nito if the CU already killed him?

Is eating a corpse good enough for Aldrich? Is Aldrich the CU of Dark Souls 1??

>>47057271
Where does it say he ate Nito?

>>47057241
>Ludleth wasn't 'picked' he /chose/ to Link The Fire, I don't think anyone asked him to(also he probably broke time doing it).

I'm just saying Ludleth was probably last choice or the least likely guy to have succeeded.

He gives the impression that literally no one else could do it and that he was the last choice available to do so and he did it despite everything.

>>47057327

On his lower body, which resembles Nito's garb

Also devourer of godS

>>47057271
Uhh what? Aldrich mostly ate humans and a couple(this one's a maybe) of gods.

His skirt is just Gwyndolin's but frayed and colored black. The bones are more like ribcages than somekind of skelly golem Nito has, and his sword spell, could just have been obtained from some random Gravelord Covenant follower, that sword was given to anyone who joined it after all.

>>47057382
Nito's garb is literally just condensed darkness, it disappears when you kill him remember?

>>47055863
>FS canon also says that Ornstein survived the first Chosen Undead's trip to Anor Londo, as only Smough was left to guard the citadel. Considering that different timelines and/or dimensions is canon as well, the one in DaS3 might just be a peculiar timeline in which Gwyndolin just never got killed.

Couldn't Ornstein and Smough be Undead? The Chosen Undead killed them, then they respawned at the bonfire, shrugged, and went their seperate ways, with Smough sticking around Anor Londo and Ornstein fucking off to Drangleic.

>>47057382
So headcanon? Gotcha.

>>47056977
Aldrich went from his coffin to anor londo after his reserection, I'm pretty sure he linked the fire. It's also possible that he linked the fire before consuming gwyndolin. The opening cinimatic describes him as saint of the deep. he resurects at the cathedral of the deep, Sulyvahn doesn't want you reaching him (which means he's againt linking, so why feed aldrich big souls before burning him).
I don't think Aldritch is halfway through eating Gwyndolin because he's already got a reputation of god eater.

>>47057587

>It's also possible that he linked the fire before consuming gwyndolin.

There's no question that he consumed Gwyndolin during the events of Dark souls 3- Nobody I think has a problem with that.

>I'm pretty sure he linked the fire.

The problem with this is it raises more questions than if he hadn't:

-Why would he link the fire of his own free will? It would severely weaken him and Aldrich is a being of pure avarice, gluttony, greed, etc- He's an evil, selfish, thing that would NEVER link the fire if it meant death/weakening himself.

-If you think Aldrich was TRICKED or FORCED you're just being silly: No one could have forced or tricked him to do ANYTHING. No one would be strong enough to force him and If he had been tricked I would imagine they would have mentioned that. The only lord of cinder to be "tricked" would be something to talk about.

The Big deal with Aldrich beyond his personal characteristics is also what Hawkwood says, about how Aldrich got his lord of cinder title through "power" and not merit/virtue.

Hearing him say that it sounds like Aldrich is more of a candidate and less of a flame linker.

You also need to keep in mind that MANY other people rose from their grave when the bell toled: You, the PC for instance also crawled out of the dirt.

>>47057645
Anon, powerful gods get tricked or forced into doing things all the time.
See: the plotline of just about every mythology story ever

>>47056495
>>47056977
I'm fairly sure that nonof the Lords of Cinder in DS3 actually managed to Link the Fire, or at least none of them linked it PROPERLY. That's the reason the Unkindled appear. They're the Flame's last-ditch solution - revive a bunch of Undead who tried to link the fire in the past in the hopes that one of them will be able to actually succeed.

>Aldrich was appointed Lord of Cinder and set on that path, but we have no evidence he ever actually TRIED. He could have just said "nah, me and Sully are going to go eat Gods now, kthxbye."

>Yhorm tried, but instead burned out/created the Profane Flame. Still not sure exactly what all that is but I theorize he either tried to do more like the Witches of Chaos did when they tried to turn their souls into a new Flame, or alternatively as a Giant his soul was sufficiently "different" enough to not properly channel the power of the Flame.

>The Abyss watchers weren't strong enough as individuals to link the flame, so they tried to do it as a collective; but not only was that not something that would work, but they were all tainted by the Abyss thanks to Artorias' blood, which caused them to also burn out and corrupt their whole region.

>Lothric didn't even fucking try.

>Ludleth MIGHT have been the only one to actually succeed in his time, or he could be lying. We'll probably find out more in the DLC.

>>47057716
>See: the plotline of just about every mythology story ever

Yes, that's the fucking point though.

If Aldrich was tricked into doing it they would have told that story for all the fucking sages and oracles and heralds to spout and tell about for the ages.

That would have been a big fucking deal, but Hawkwood clearly states they MADE him a lord of cinder due to his POWER and not his VIRTUE.

He wouldn't link the fire he lacks the VIRTUE.
He wouldn't link the fire he desires POWER.

He wasn't TRICKED because there's no MYTHOS.

I just think there's more to support that he didn't link the fire and he's lord of cinder in name only than if he actually earned the title through doing it.

>>47057645
>No one would be strong enough to force him

You don't know how strong he was at this point (pre-gwyndolin).

Hawkwood mentions power becasue it's power that put people on top, and he's daunted by the prospect of faceing lords of cinder.

A crutial point to why the lords must be gathered is that the game requires you to gather these souls. It's more plausable that the linking requires the souls of past linkers than people with a title. It's not amatter of great souls either or the namelss king would do.

>>47057451
What? As if this series isn't built on a bedrock of headcanon. Hell, Miyazaki's "headcanon" about the books he couldn't completely read as a child is the template for the way the lore is written. "Looking like" something else is about as much evidence as you need.

>>47057017
Ludleth is obviously very powerful, I keep hearing about how untended graves is the true one and ludleth created the starting point of this game to hide the untended graves

>>47055751
I don't know if anyone ever considered this, But I think the Anor Londo we visit on DS3 is fake. The Silver Knights seem to be Gwyndolins idea in both DS 1 and 3, since Gwyns Knights walked into the flames and became the Black Knights.

Further, the Smough set description mentions that he was the last knight to protect Anor Londo, that could possibly mean that everyone except Smough was one of Gwyndolins illusions/fakes

my theory is, Gwyndolin survived DS1, went on to create a new anor londo in the Boreal Valley, and was eventually betrayed by Sulyvahn.

The silver knights are ceremonial guards that are actually knights from Lothric. Hence why they work with the Deacons and didn't protect Gwyndolin from Aldritch.

>>47058471
I agree that the silver knights are probably a new order initiated by Gwyndolin after DS1.

But Anor Londo could be either, really. Maybe Gwyndolin rebuilt part of it elsewhere, maybe he kept his father's tomb in good shape while everything around it changed.

This really seems like a /v/ thread.

I'm amazed you guys are getting away with these threads on /tg/.

Reminder that the Dragonslayer Armor belongs to an unnamed third Dragonslayer who served both Ornstein and Nameless King. Source: Sacred Oath.

>>47058514
could also be that Anor Londo and Lordran became the Boreal valley due to Gwyndolin being the Moon God, and there being eternal night since he rules.

so Jeremiah just got unlocked on the kickstarter

>>47057393
Yeah Nito is canonically dead. But I don't think it's random that he has this sword/spell, or that he just ate some random dude, it seems like too big a clue to mean nothing.

>>47058561
>Sacred Oath.
Miracle of those chosen by the Sunlight covenant.

Temporarily boosts attack and damage absorbtion for self and those in vicinity.

This is the tale of the Sun's firstborn, his faithful first knight, and the brave dragonslayer who served them both.

more like Gwyn's son, Solaire and Ornstein

>>47057393
>could just have been obtained from some random Gravelord Covenant follower

Or maybe Aldrich was a gravelord covenant member himself. Or related to Nito somehow. The way he "absorbs" people is not something very common in the DSverse, I can only think of 2 other entities who did that : the rotten (heavily implied to be Nito's spiritual successor) and Pinwheel.

>>47059022
>>47059225
Yea, DS2 seems to imply that Nito's power got kind of "spread out" after his death - the Rotten had his soul, but the Milfanito also had a portion of his power as well.

I would speculate that "the Deep" that Aldrich explored was as much the Caverns of the Abyss as it was the Gutter, if we're comparing to DS2 locations. It's pretty easy to imagine he found those powers down there and consumed them pretty early on.

>>47059094
>more like Gwyn's son, Solaire and Ornstein
I dunno about that.

The way that Solaire's "legacy" has been presented in DS2 and 3, especially now that it's totally confirmed that he's not Gwyn's son, seems to suggest that he really was just some guy. Which I think is better, to be honest - it makes him one of the few optimistic notes in the otherwise fairly bleak Dark Souls canon.

I mean, think about it. Solaire was JUST A GUY. A skilled knight, sure, but other than that he didn't have any special powers. All he wanted was to find some light and hope in a world that didn't have enough of either, and he spends the whole game encouraging other Undead to work together.

Sure, he dies a pretty ignoble death in the end unless you save him, and even if you do the name "Solaire" is very quickly forgotten by history - even by DS2 nobody knows who he was. But you know what isn't forgotten? The Covenant he started. A brotherhood of undead working together to help each other through their hardest trials. A beacon of light in an otherwise dark world. Dark Souls 3 could be THOUSANDS of years after 1, its shrines are nothing but crumbled statues, and yet the Warriors of Sunlight are still there, still engaging in Jolly Cooperation, and still wearing the funny-looking Sun-With-A-Face that Solaire fucking drew on his shield because he was a weird, silly man.

I love it.

>>47055764
He's an entirely optional boss, so...

So does someone know what those weird undead-tree-butterflies are? Is this the same phenomenon as with the giants in dark souls 2 ? Do they wake up because the fire is fading ? Are they agents of the dark ? or are they the new "dragons" being awakened by a new "grey age" ?

>>47057798
Aldrich wasn't tricked, it's stated multiple times he is trying to grow in power to prepare for the Age of the Deep, he knew what he was doing


that and gods probably taste prettttty good

>>47059786
I like to think that it's the last one.

Dark Souls is so big on the idea of cycles, and DS3 really tries to drive home the idea that the cycle of Linking the Fire is artificial and slowly falling apart. The idea of people being reborn as "new dragons" (especially since they show up while you're fighting a boss called Dragonslayer Armor) fits well with that - the "Age of Grey" is starting to manifest as the Age of Fire is finally starting to fade away for good.

>>47055802
The "gods" of Dark Souls aren't true gods. Yes, they are stupidly powerful in comparison to your average human, but they're neither all-powerful nor invincible.

>>47059903
They're "gods" in the mythological sense, like the Greek or Norse gods.

Being omniscient/omnipotent isn't a requirement for being a "true god". That's just a Judeochristian thing.

Wait, is Anri of Astora an unkindled, or a bonafide Undead?

Because you could make a good argument that Anri is the real "hero" of the story, considering an Unkindled's job is merely to keep the fire going long enough for the Undead to show up and finish the job (which Anri was doing, since (s)he enlists the help of the Unkindled to kill Aldrich in their world.)

>>47059992
>They're "gods" in the mythological sense, like the Greek or Norse gods.

Not even that, dude.

The Gods of Dark Souls are immortal. That's pretty much their sole defining attribute compared to Humans.

All of their power and strength came not from inherently being a God, but from the hundreds or thousands of years of training and soul accumulation they were able to do on account of being immortal, not to mention that when a God has a child a portion of their soul (and thus power) is sheared off into the child, meaning the offspring of powerful gods already have a head's start.

>>47060028
Uh... and the fact that they had the Lord's Souls?

Like yea, they're immortal, but they started out with the First Flame(s). That alone already made them far stronger than any Human (who each have a small fragment of the Dark Soul.)

>>47059993
Anri is hollow

Check her character model.

>>47060093
>Uh... and the fact that they had the Lord's Souls?

Not every god had a Lord's Soul, and not all Lord's Souls were given to gods; Nito wasn't a god, and neither was the Witch of Izalith.

Gwyn was the only god who had a Lord's Soul, and although he gave portions of his soul freely to his family, there were still plenty of Gods who had none, like the Silver Knights or the gods and goddesses mentioned outside of the royal family.

>>47060094

Hollow is just a fancy way of saying "very advanced undead." She's still kept her sanity and is in fact pushing forward in Linking the Fire regardless of her condition, much like the Chosen Undead in DaS 1.

Besides, Undead/Hollow and Unkindled are very different things.

>>47059507
>it's totally confirmed that he's not Gwyn's son
since when?

>>47060289

since there is a better candidate in the last game.

>>47060321
Gwyn had multiple sons IIRC, you referring specifically to the one that was disowned?

What even is the difference between an unkindled and an undead?

I'm surprised there's no "Aldrich is the chosen undead" meme given that Aldrich is just the word Eldritch spelled differently, and half the shit about him/it could be applied to the DaS1 chosen undead becoming some weird entity after all the power and bullshit amassed over eons of shitting about.

>>47060365

An Unkindled is a corpse given life through the invigorating power of embers, their purpose is to keep the First Flame going long enough for an Undead to show up and Link it proper.

An Undead is a human bearing the Accursed Darksign, which is essentially a metaphysical unstoppered drain that leaks souls until nothing's left but the Dark Soul. Every once in a while an Undead will accumulate enough souls to Link the Fire.

>>47060365

As I understand it, unkindled are undead, but they have been raised from death, by the tolling bell

Undead are just people who developed the Darksign and gradually expended their natural soul energy

>>47060373
>I'm surprised there's no "Aldrich is the chosen undead" meme given that Aldrich is just the word Eldritch spelled differently, and half the shit about him/it could be applied to the DaS1 chosen undead becoming some weird entity after all the power and bullshit amassed over eons of shitting about.

Aldrich *was* a Chosen Undead, he was able to Link the Fire just like Yhorm, Ludleth and the Abyss Watchers had.

Which presents the hilarious mental image of a big dump truck pouring the big goopy goober out onto the First Flame.

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What the fuck is up with those actual winged knight angels on top of the Archives

>>47060365
the 'normal' undead in Dark Soul are raised by Undead Curse and run the risk of going Hollow if they lose their drive

Unkindled are raised by the bell of awakening, does not naturally goes Hollow and theoretically can't link the fire
or at lest this is my interpretation

>>47060410
>>47060423
But the unkindled one also has a darksign in ds3

>>47060333
Yes.

The theory was that Solaire was the disowned war god because of his connection to Sunlight/lightning. But with that confirmed as not true, there's no longer any reason to believe him to be related to Gwyn at all.

My theory is that Solaire "rediscovered" some of the Nameless King's power (the destroyed statue at the Sunlight Shrine being a former statue of the disowned god).

>>47060463

They were imprisoned in the giant bird cage you find directly underneath that tower.

They're Lothric knights who drank the Kaathe kool-aid.

What about it being confirmed that Solaire linked the fire in his own world/timeline? Does that change the lore in anyway?

>>47060481

Video-games.

>>47060485
>But with that confirmed as not true
when/where/what is what I'm asking
I haven't been keeping up with new lore
Solaire being 1000% not the son is huge to me

>>47055763
Because some people think traditional games means anything fantasy, even if it isn't a traditional game.

>>47060531
In ds3 there is a boss that is VERY heavily implied to be the Suns first born

>>47060531
There's an optional boss in DS3 called "the Nameless King" who is all but explicitly stated to be Gwyn's firstborn, who rebelled against his father and sided with the remaining Dragons.

It's actually a pretty cool bit of new lore, since it ties in with Ornstein and the Faraam knights and a few other things in DS1 and 2.

>>47060634

I never made the connection that the Faraam Knights, who worship a God of War, worshiped Gwyn's firstborn.

So I guess that means Gwyn's firstborn was named Faraam?

I'm pretty sure that Yhorm is a son of Vendrick and Nashandra.

>>47060668
Gwynfaraam

What's the deal with Horace the hushed? Whyd he have to go and try to kill me after I trek through bones and bolts to look for his ass? Did he fully hollow when he fell into the pit?

>>47057645
I don't understand the debate of if a Lord of Cinder is a Lord of Cinder.

>>47060668
It's certainly possible. It might have been his real name, or just the name he adopted in exile when he was in Foressa.

His trademark symbol was always the Lion - he personally trained Ornstein, who adopted the same symbol and fighting style; the Faraam knights were known as Lion Knights.

>>47061037
The debate isn't about that, it's about whether to be a Lord of Cinder you have to link the fire or not.

>>47059786
My limited knowledge leads me to guess that they are the angels the Winged Knight set describes.

>>47061168
>My limited knowledge leads me to guess that they are the angels the Winged Knight set describes.

The Angels are the Primordial Serpents, most likely Kaathe.

>>47060942
Yeah, he died and went fully hollow,
He and Anri both have beef jerky hollow faces under their helmets already.

>>47061216

Anri seems to display all the characteristics of a Chosen Undead, though, which means she simply can't go Hollow.

>>47061259
Except she does go full hollow after accomplishing her mission.

>>47061259
They go hollow in the end if you tell them about Horace dying though, player character not dying is just a game feature.

>>47061282
>>47061283

Shit, really? I thought she was killed by Horace. All I did was the Lord of Hollows ending with her questline.

And why did she want to kill Aldrich so bad, because Irithyll and the Church were the ones that destroyed Astora?

>>47061259

Chosen Undead do hollow.

They do it when they give up on their purpose and don't know what to do, so give up.

It just so happens that you as the PC do this when you get bored of the game and stop playing that character.

What is the best armor in the game and why is it Outrider Set?

>>47061325
What? How did she die to horace if you completed the usurpation ending?

>>47061410
She didn't die to Horace, she died to a Londor Assassin in Yorshka's Chapel - you can prevent it and stop the questline by killing him, he's disguised as one of the statues in a corner.

Horace just goes hollow because he's a weird fucked up gimp man.

>>47061477
meant to link to >>47061325 whoops.

>>47061325

because they both were prisonners of the church when they were church, according to some item description.

They were probably destined to become Aldrich food, and seek vengeance.

That's probably why Anri hollows in the "good" ending to her questline, she accomplished her goal, that's a red flag in this universe

>>47061602

when they were children sorry

>>47061602
This also possibly explains why Horace doesn't talk. If him and Anri were aldritch food in the cathedral when they were kids, they probably got all fucked up. I'm betting Horace tried to be a big hero for anri and got his tongue cut out.

Rosaria?

>>47061798
She's very close, that's what I thought happened to him too.

>>47061839
Yeah, It makes me wonder if Leonhard could be the NPC behind it, or if it was just some rando smallfinger.

Or maybe it was Heysel

There anything to the Painted world in DS3 besides the painted set you can find and the Corvids worshiping it?

>>47061900
Aldritch having the Lifehunt Scythe attack, and getting the spell for it from his soul.

Also I'm totally betting that Painted World is one of the upcoming DLC's.

Anyone have ANY clue why we have three Firelink Shirines in DaS3?

>>47061982
Thought the running theory to the whole Untended Graves area was that Iudex in fact failed to link the fire like he was supposed too because he woke up too late, but then Ludleth fucked with time to ensure that there would be a chance to do so anyways

>>47062114
I like the idea of the Graves being a kind of bubble of "oh shit, we fucked up, Gundyr got here too late". Ludleth or whoever locked it away, and then we get all the clones of Gundyr with the darkness in them coming from that place.

Is rosaria some twisted version of gwyndolin? There are a few things that hint at that.

>>47061982
Three shrines? I've only seen two, the "normal" one and Untended Graves.

Champion Gundyr would've been a much better fight if Phase 2 was him ditching the halberd entirely and fighting with his MMA skills.

Can't beat the Champ!

>>47062146
like what?

>>47062162
The one at the Kiln of the First Flame

>>47062146

Rosaria was likely a daughter of Gwynevere, she shares many aspects of Gwynevere, but not enough of them to suggest they're one and the same.

>>47062193
Ah, totally forgot about that, then again I rushed NG+ like an idiot, trying to take it slow this time around and enjoy the landscape.

>>47062114
>>47062140
It's too damn confusing for me. So, Ludeth or someone is powerful enough to create copies of real locations? Or that is just FS reusing existing assets?

>>47062224

Get the Eyes of the Firekeeper and talk to Ludleth, he comments about the Untended Graves and the abandoned Firelink Shrine.

>>47062264
Dammit, I only got those after he died.

>>47062183
There's something amazing and humiliating about being beaten by a humanoid enemy's non-weapon attacks.

Managed to get myself killed by a cathedral knight's kick earlier. Shit was brutal.

>>47061982

Could be that the intended grave is the "real" shrine.

The way I'm imagining it, it must have went something like that :
-fire is linked from generation to generation, ludleth, the giant, aldrich and the abyss watchers are all some ancient persons who linked the flame
-the current lord of cinder to be, prince lothric, would rather watch the world end, and ensure that no one links the flame.
-the flame activates a failsafe and brings back a few old lords of cinder to bring lothric to it.
-they fuck off instead, except ludleth
-gundir is possibly charged with bringing everyone back but fails (or he gets there too late and gets abyss'd, I have no idea honestly)
-someone/something creates an alternate shrine (possibly ludleth) that is separated from the rest of the real world, probably out of time or in the past or the future, this is why you have to warp from FL and if you try to get there by foot you end up in the real shrine aka untended grave
-when you get in the real world, it's already too late, the flame has died out and the cycle/age of fire is ending (and weird shit is happening as a result) so you have to get all the old lords and the new one before the world dissapears into nothing, and bring them to the shrine.
-The kiln of the first flame seems to be the shrine, but maybe further in the future ? If you look back when you get there, you can see a twisted Lothric, crumbling onto itself, maybe it reprensent creation becoming smaller and smaller as all that came from the first flame start converging to it's center (the kiln).

Might even be that the time fuckery comes from the flame resurrecting the Lords of old, as if it was sacrificing some time by "canceling" the fact that they burned

>>47062588
So, we Bloodborne now (Firelink Shrine you go is a fake/dream)?

Let's hope that the DLCs shed some light in the lore.

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>>47055857
Poor Gwyndolin.
Nothing ever goes right for him.

>>47062146
>>47062203
We know Gwynevere had "many deific children", so I think it's entirely possible that she's one of her kids.

>>47062662
Kinda, except bloodborne is all about alternate dimentions, and every dimension being a dream of some ancient being, similar to lovecraftian lore.

Dark souls is about time being twisted and convoluted, sometimes so much that we can travel through it, I wonder if this is inspired by another work of fiction in particular.

>>47058514
>>47058564
My theory is that the Painted World of Ariamis bled out.

>>47059786
They're called pilgrim butterflies by the dragonslayer armour soul

So I got the eyes and gave them to the firekeeper

then she begged me to kill her and I did

Does she come back? Did I dun goofd?

>>47063896

she'll come back once you reset the area.
the ending is different if you gave her the eye, wait for her dialogue to change and then summon her after the last boss.

She knows the eyes will make her want to betray the flame, that's why she asks you to remove them before that happens.

Do we know why the Abyss Watchers were all fucking killing each other when we got there? Did they just go crazy because the world was already being overrun with Dark? It just feels weird that there are goddamn Darkwraiths chilling out outside their house and they are too busy murdering each other to do anything about it.

>>47062706
Atleast he got someone to eat him out before he died.

>>47064404
It's implied at least a few of them are consumed by the abyss, and they're murdering each other because of it.

I loved the Darkwraith thing though. Those two guys were going to have a go at the boss themselves, which is a super neat touch.

>>47064404

Me thinks they're getting corrupted by the abyss, like Artorias.

>>47064404
>chilling
I don't know about you but my dark wraiths started killing each other until one remained to go after me.
Also it was pretty weird that I didn't see any abyss watchers alive when I had opened the doors. They only spawned after cut scene.

>>47055863
Ornstein in Das1 was an illusion powered by the real Ornstein's soul

>>47056420
They are musical things man pump-a-rum is for things kinda like drums, while Pickle-pee is for flutes

>>47064545

probably, but that's still just speculation, there is not enough evidence to be certain of anything concerning Ornstein in DS1

>>47056441
If CU doesn't link the fire Solaire does this is canon

>>47064451
There is actually a Webm of the darkwraiths glitching through the door and completing phase one successfully

>>47064675
Singular. Darkwraith.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hfz5Lj4FF7w

Almost makes me wonder how it would go if you got both of them in there.

But yea, it's sweet.

You know what else is sweet though?

Blood Gem infused Manikin claws.

They're surprisingly effectively against Lothic knights, which I thought they'd be terrible against.

>>47055751
I finally figured out what the locked coffins in bloodborne were for. Only after playing DS3 did it occur to me, and it was never mentioned by anyone anywhere. When a Hunter dies, he is released to the Hunters Dream, and comes back fine again, so the only reliable way to dispose of hunters, is to lock them up in a coffin and wait for them to die of thirst or hunger, or go insane and be locked in the nightmare. The same thing can be applied to the undead, killing them does nothing, so in the undead settlement you have hordes of them being bound and hanging from ropes, or being locked in cages, because killing them doesn't actually dispose of them, once they have gone fully hollow, they are thrown in the pit where they rot for the eons.

a completely unrelated theory has to do with the pilgrims from Londor, I think the pilgrims main purpose is to find someone to link the fire, However, Lothric doesn't want to, so the knights have been stopping them. going as far as breaking down the bridge right after the settlement. I think Oceiros started researching into dragon secrets, to find a way to prolong his kingdom without linking the fire, and in the process whoever sent the Pilgrims decided they should send the Dragonslayer, that might explain the fallen dragons on the way to the caslte, but at some point the Slayer was defeated (perhaps by the older prince, explaining his injuries?), or couldn't achieve his goal and died, while his armour was used as a weapon by the Pilgrim Butterflies.

Let me know if there have been any discoveries that make that theory impossible

The one thing I don't get is when/where the fuck does DS2 take place?

I always thought DS2 took place prior to DS1 because of the wibbly wobbly time-y hints in the original trailers and the sinking into the time pool, but then stuff in DS3 contradicts that

Also the fact that DS3 and DS1 clearly both take place in the same world, but there are no links from DS2 aside from Ornstein

>>47064831
DS2 takes place in between DS1 and DS3.
Ornstein is seen dead in DS3.

>>47064831

I feel like DS3 is a much more direct sequel to DS1 than DS2 ever was, and the reappearing content from DS2 is basically just token because they feel they have to. They don't really want to touch DS2 any more than they have to.

Think of all of the DS1 bosses and ideas and content that reappear. And from DS2, we have... a couple of armor sets, and the Blue Sentinals covenant. That's pretty much fucking it.

Your best bet is to either have DS2 actually come AFTER 3, instead of before, or go with the interpretation that Drangleic really is on another continent and what happened there ultimately didn't matter much. Vendrick took the Lordvessel from the ruins of Lordran and did all of his stuff, but ultimately none of his plans, or even the True Monarch who succeeded him, really managed to do anything. Notice how in none of the endings of DS2 do you actually link the fire or anything else important. You either choose to perpetuate the cycle or abandon it, but we don't have any proof that you could have perpetuated the cycle even if you wanted to. Drangleic is just one of many kingdoms that fell to undeath and couldn't do much about it, not every place is important like Lordran.

>>47060694

No. He's a giant. He probably consumed the Profaned Flame to prepare to link the First Flame and became partially human due to it.

>>47065003
Drangleic, called Drang in 3, is clearly a distant place from Lothric is probably Lordran. Anor Londo being the most probable link between the two and the Faraam Keep is probably on top of Darkroot Garden and thus Oolacile which is where the Abyss sprang from and so the Watchers' corruption.

My idea is that Yhorm is a son of Vendrick and Nashandra, which is why he's gigantic (since they both were) but still human and has a face unlike the stone/tree Giants and Gwyn's giants. Gwyn's giants show up in 3, and there are a few stone tree giant corpses around.

>>47065086

So whats the deal with Yhorm and the Profane Flame/Capital? I feel like I skipped an area or something, because fucking no one talks about either of them.

We get all kinds of infodumps on Farron, and we spend half the game chasing after Aldritch and his pall Sully being a dick about it. But Yhorm is just sort of 'go here, this level isnt very long. Dodge some gargoyale dudes. Oh hey, is this a miniboss fight? Nope, its a fucking lord of cinder, like 5 minutes brisk walk from the first bonfire. Glad thats over.'

He feels like an afterthought tacked onto the game to fill out the roster, which is weird given how prominent he was in the trailer.

>>47065086
He's got a face though and none of the stone tree Giants do. (His face is hooded but there are clearly burning red eyes, no other giants have even eyes, just the gaping hole) he's a gigantic human, but not a Giant.

>>47065165
I was kind of disappojnted that seemingly none of the Lords fit on their thrones safe Ludleth.

>>47065165
You did miss half the level, it's just you can fight Yhorm or you can explore. Like the smoldering lake area, you can fight the demon king early without going through the whole zone.

>>47065124
farron keep = faraam keep?

>>47065241
Shit, yeah Farron keep.

These similar words are confusing my phone, I train it to know some of these words and so it sees the similar ones as the new words I've trained it for.

>>47065209

You mean the tunnels with the toxic swamp and the church beneath it? I found that, but it wasn't exactly enlightening.

Is there anything we know about Yhorm or the Profaned Capital other than they exist?

Also feels super weird that the profaned capital and Anor Londo are totally unrelated places. Profaned, sure, but Capital of what?

>>47065331
The weapon Eleonora, which you can get off one of those handface people has this to say:

>A strange weapon found among malformed inhabitants of the Profaned Capital.

>The Profaned Flame was triggered by the curse of these women, relatives of a certain oracle, but despite their culpability, they went on living, without any cares.

>>47065331
Capital of Yhorm's land. Yhorm is the son of a conquerer in the past who was a good ruler until he did his fire linkage, something went wrong though and the flame was profaned, it became a separate sort of flame from the First Flame or even the Chaos flame.

It's linked to the other places through the geofuckery that happens in these lands.

>>47065363

Well... thats vague as fuck. Chaos Flame vibes, sure, but we already know Izalith was beneath the Smoldering Lake, so this can't be that.

Its a shame that DS3 wants nothing to do with DS2, because a Profaned Capital with a Profaned Flame beneath the frozen valley would have been the perfect place to bring back Eleum Loyce, which was awesome.

>>47065331
I assume capital of Yhorm.

>>47065404
Eleum Loyce was the shit

>>47065404
Alsanna is the only oracle I can think of in a Dark Souls game though, so maybe they are making very vague references to it, but don't want to outright say it because they hate DS2 in general.

It's a stretch, but as you say, it does feel rather like they phoned in the lore on Yhorm and the Profaned Capital.

>>47060333

Of course Gwyn had multiple sons. Nameless King and Gwyndolin are the two mentioned in lore. Solaire was just a burly ass guy who was looking for a purpose after going undead. He wasn't anything exceptional outside the fact he could use miracles and even the Player could do that.

The reason people thought Solaire was Gwyn's son was that he was the only other human male character you interacted with and used lightning magic. This coupled with the 'exiled son' led the idiots like Vaatividya and co to make up head canon based on the fact we never encountered Nameless King in the game.

We have now met Gwyn's Firstborn and he's a dragon riding guy who hurls lightning and shit everywhere and protects a suit of Dragonslayer armour which means he probably is the son who trained Ornstein and then got cold feet after the Dragons stopped attacking and decided that genociding them wasn't worth it.

King of the Storm might not even be a dragon though. What we know of dragons is that they are unkillable without lightning and are covered head to tail in stone. More likely a drake or wyvern.

>>47065454

Maybe the DLC will fix that? If you remember, DS2 basically didn't have a plot in the second half until the DLC gave it one. Scholar of the First Sin is a much, muuuuuch better game than vanilla DS2 ever was.

>>47065542
It looks like a big bird to me, the only idea is that it's spitting fire, but a whole lot of things can spit fire that aren't dragons.

>>47065639
I suppose a Wyvern would make sense.

If you imagine the possibility than The NK rode off on a Wyvern and founded the Kingdom of Lothric, seeing how the Wyvern is the symbol of Lothric.

Perhaps Oceiros is one of his descendants, all people of Lothric are rather tall compared to average humans, just as the Black Knights of Gwyn, perhaps The Nameless King didn't go alone but took a portion of Anor Londos people with him?

>>47065201
I found an immmense amount of significance in this fact, because it becomes apparent that these thrones were never built with the LoC's compliance in mind.
They won't fit, as they were never expected to. Their souls were all that was needed.

>>47066007
that's an interesting way to look at it.

but how did they "leave" their thrones?

Aldritch was in his coffin, Yhorm too, I assume Lothric didn't die yet, and the Watcher woke up in a field.

how exactly did they abandon their thrones, or how did Ludleth get on his throne without feet?

except perhaps Ludleth was the one who built them and did some kiln shit

>>47065435
It really was. It's extra area was amazing as well.

I only think there's like two areas in the entire series that are just better than Loyce.

>>47065542
>King of the Storm might not even be a dragon though. What we know of dragons is that they are unkillable without lightning and are covered head to tail in stone.

Kalameet and the Slumbering Dragon both could be killed by anything and were not made of stone. The Dragonslayer Greatbows did not deal any magical damage yet were used to hunt dragons.

It is important to note that the original dragons existed in an age before life and death. I think when these aspects were introduced they became what we know now.

>>47065562

DLC focusing on stuff from DaS 2, including Aldia and the Bearer of the Curse wielding every crown would be amazing.

Especially if it becomes a trick battle because the Bearer is quite literally immortal (as seen by collecting all the crowns.)

>>47066270
I think it was implied that ALL dragons lost their stone scales in the war, but not all were killed, and without the arch trees they couldn't regenerate them

since it was a main point of the plot that only lightning could destroy their scales and make them vulnerable

>>47065394
Undead can link the flame, gods/lords, unkindled, even fucking whatever the fuck Aldritch is can with little to no issue, but god forbid an actual giant do it.

Giants get the shit end of the stick throughout DS lore.

>>47066371

It is directly stated that all of Anor Londo dared not attack Kalameet due to his eye.

There is a lot of conflict with the in game lore and first intro now. Like the Lightning Stake miracle says lighting spears were shit at tearing apart dragon scales yet in the intro they were used to destroy them. Hell, the intro says there are no more dragons. Which is proven to be false a few times.

>>47066549
the narrators are fucking liars

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>Peace grants men the illusion of life.
>Shackled by falsehoods, they yearn for love, unaware of its grand illusion.
>Until, the curse touches their flesh.
>We are bound by this yoke.
>As true as the Dark that churns within men.

>All men trust fully the illusion of life.
>But is this so wrong?
>A construction, a facade, and yet...
>A world full of warmth and resplendence.
>Young Hollow, are you intent on shattering the yoke, spoiling this wonderful falsehood?
Well /tg/?

>>47066549
I think not Gwyn's Genocide era Anor Londo but post kindling Anor Londo would not dare attack kalameet

That would probably mean Artorias was gone, Gough blind, and Ornstein was too pussy to attempt it alone

>>47059786
They're pilgrim butterflies--the apparent end result of the tree-hollows in Lothric and/or the result of what happens when one of the undead pilgrims loses his turtle shell.

>>47066601

I want to see what Aldia's solution to the Cycle was, his world that combines the best aspects of the Age of Dark and Age of Fire.

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>>47066371
I think a lot of problems might be with mistranslation on two fronts.

For one, the abuse of the word "dragon" might just be to describe things-that-aren't-exactly-dragons like Wyverns or Drakes or whatever. It's also possible that it's a half-intentional thing, because when you get down to it, dragons in DaS are a lot like lovecraftian elder deities. Trying to understand them is pretty much impossible and their true nature is largely inscrutable. It's possible that in the setting, people just see a weird winged lizard deal and think "THATS A DRAGON" and chuck lightning at it because that's the story everyone knows. Think about it. If you were a Lothric Knight and you kicked the shit out of some drake and rode it around for kicks, would you tell people it wasn't a dragon if they didn't know any better

We as a player however know that these creatures are all different things mostly due to the item description exposition that beings within the setting are not privy to. Kamleet and the storm king whateveritis share a lot of characteristics with drakes, which seem more like mutated birds or something. Even the stoney dragons throughout lothric look more like drakes. Sihn was full of cancer juice and that probably made him mortal somehow- it's also possible that he is a "fake" recreated dragon, as we've seen some of those before. The gaping dragon seems to have devolved into something else (maybe this is how we got drakes?) because of it's gluttony. Seath is, well, scaleless. Ocerios is just a squishy jellyfishman pretending to be seath.

>>47066626

kalameet is an ancient dragon so has been around since time pretty much began and during this time no one from Gywn, his knights or anyone else from Anor Londo dared to touch him.

>>47066671
I think that was the thing, he didn't have a solution. He wanted to see what the bearer of the curse would do given the option, and they did fuck off from the cycle, what would happen.

You know, I've been thinking.
To me, it seems like the whole souls as a currency thing was kinda poorly implemented in the dark games.
Like in Demon's it made sense; people wanted souls because it kept them from going insane, and it made it harder for demons to eat your soul.
In Dark and beyond...
people want souls because it stops you from going hollow except it doesn't really so ???

>>47066767
why does oceiros touchdown his ocelotte thing in phase 2, really caught me off guard, and then his shadow backyard

if I had to pinpoint the moment it reminded me of Bloodborne, I'd compare Oceiros to Provost Willem and his magical lake

>>47055751
I just bumped into the consumed king and I'm wholly confused

Why is all this abyss crap in his front yard?
Is he fucking pregnant or something?
Okay sure, he magic'd himself into a dragon I guess, but for what fucking purpose?

>>47067002
consuming souls makes you stronger, which keeps you from being killed, which keeps your from hollowing.

but your need for souls ever increases until you reach a point where the necessary souls become seemingly unobtainable and once a person (or player) loses the will to move on they also hollow.

>>47067015
Because it's him realizing that his child was never with him throughout the fight.
He gets mad, smashes the "fake" baby, and then starts up a more wild, aggressive moveset.

>champ Gundyr
>a somewhat even duel
>that moveset
>that continuous need of dodging
>that punishing back kick
>that second phase
>no bullshit phantom
>no bullshit missiles you have to dodge
>no curse/poison/burning aeos that ruin your fight
>that second phase with upped speed and more agressive moveset instead of full retard snake bullshit

god damn this guy is my favourit boss of the game already, I don't see how anything could beat this now, got him on my second try, Sulyvahn could have had him beat if his second phase wasn't such cheap bullshit.

but god damn that backward kick got me good a few times, one time it hit me in the face so hard it switched to first person and the game dropped 20 frames for a second

>>47067199
This. Gundyr turns me on.

That's lore, right?

>>47067084
maybe the magic explosion at his palm during impact irritated me.

>>47067199
Yeah, he's a real motherfucker, but he's fair. The Dancer was way, way less fun to fight in comparison.

>>47067249
His title as the 'Belated Champion' is certainly interesting. I hope DLC delves more into his story--what kept him from showing up on time, what the deal is with the whole abyss corruption thing, and why he had to be impaled with the coiled sword.

>>47067249
I forgot to ask what the explanation behind Gundyr sitting there in the dark was.


seems to me like he is watching the shrine, but not doing a very good job of it as proven by the black knights behind him.

or maybe he's keeping the knights away from Oceiros.

>>47067319
maybe he impaled himself with the coiled sword to prevent the abyss from using him

>>47055802
Because Gods in Dark Souls are physical beings who walk among men. They are very powerful, but also entirely fallible and most importantly they can be killed.

>>47067385
Might make sense. The coiled sword in Untended Graves is broken and fragmented, so the Champ ended up being fully consumed by the Abyss. The red eyes are a possible giveaway for that. Plus, IIRC, the Black Knights in Untended Graves bleed the same color as the Aldrich blobs, so it's possible that the Abyss won in the UG timeline. Contrast Iudex, whose Pus of Man phase is infinitely easier, possibly indicating a shittier, less developed Abyss corruption.

Now why the hell are the Untended Graves sitting behind an illusory wall in Oceiros' garden? Is there any geographical explanation for that beyond the normal space-squishing effect of the dying Flame? What's Oceiros' connection to the UG?

>>47067352
My guess is that that's Gundyr as he should have been, but was corrupted by the Abyss before he could reach the firekeeper or the coiled sword before the Flame went out. So Ludleth, using some bullshit, shunted that failed rime period off and traveled to beat Gundyr to the Flame, because he knew the champion would fail. As a result of being shamed, Gundyr impails himself with the coiled sword to instead act as a guardian for the next cycle.

So what exactly happens in the Usurpation of the Fire ending?

Does the Age of Dark start or what?

>>47067639
I think it's less the age of Dark and instead the age of Man/Hollows. Every other god, demon, and mythic being is dead, leaving only Humanity to build the world using the power of the Flame.

>>47067319
>>47067352
I meant because he's a fucking beefcake, but whatever.

>>47067696
but your PC has usurped the fire, the embodiment of the the combined lords of cinder. You are pretty much a god in this new world.

Why do you need to get """married""" to usurp the flame ? I didn't get the point of that

Has anyone else just not bothered to run the Ancient Wyvern's gauntlet and instead killed him on foot?

>>47068018

How long did it take ?
Hugging his foot looked simple enough but I was just doing so little damage

>>47067976
You mean the Lord of Hollows ending? Probably just because Yuria likes playing matchmaker.

Actually usurping the flame just requires handing the Fire Keeper some eyes.

>>47068071

Oh right sorry, I mixed up the names, I meant the "make Londor great again" ending

>>47068054
I baited him into killing the three Snake-Men in the tower, stayed on the stairs to bait out his fire-breath then ran him when he started winding up for another blast. All told? Maybe 10 minutes with a good weapon.

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>>47067610
>>47067555
>>47067385
>>47067319
>>47067249
>>47067319
>>47067352

Okay, so, here's what I've gathered about Champion Gundyr

-Champion Gundyr was/is a chosen undead much like you, but he came "too late" and when he arrived at his firelink shrine he found his fire keeper dead, the bells refusing to toll and the darkness had already set in.

-The only one around to talk to was the shrine hand maid and she provided nothing really useful, but she DOES mention "little embers in the dark" (I think, I can't for the life of me fucking find her dialogue in text). At any rate she isn't explicitly important, ALTHOUGH: IF you talk to the shrine handmaid in the untended graves FIRST before talking to the shrine handmaid in firelink SHE RECOGNIZES YOU- giving good evidence to support the untended graves are in the PAST.

-Anyway back to Gundyr. Gundyr sits his ass down at one of the last bonfires and meditates on his fate as a "late" champion, but while doing so one of two things happens: Either YOU the PC arrive to fight him, the SWORDMASTER arrives to fight him or you both do.

-Champion Gundyr thinks his best option to link the fire is to collect the souls of those who've persisted through the darkness -the little embers- and fights you with his full might. He loses though and you steal his soul(s).

-Defeated and dejected, Champion Gundyr devices a new plan: He takes chains and the coiled bonfire sword from the firelink shrine and chains himself down before impaling himself on the sword.

-Champion Gundyr reasons that his hollow body will persist through the age of dark and will provide an adequate challenge to those seeking to link the fire: anyone capable of defeating him and taking the sword will be deemed worthy in his eyes, his judgement, his "Iudex".

-He then waits, hollowing as the abyss takes him.

>>47068586
>He takes chains and the coiled bonfire sword from the firelink shrine and chains himself down before impaling himself on the sword.
Isn't the UG coiled sword broken? It's why you find a fragment in the fire pit instead of a duplicate sword.

>>47064823
>layer was defeated (perhaps by the older prince, explaining his injuries?)
We know that lorian is a cripple because he willing took some of lothrics curse onto himself.

>>47068649
>Isn't the UG coiled sword broken? It's why you find a fragment in the fire pit instead of a duplicate sword.

Excellent point.

I've had a closer look at the Iudex Gundyr from our time: The Bonfire he was resting at in the past is gone, so maybe with only 1 coiled sword left he just took it out of the bonfire he was currently using.

I mean, yes, either way the point remains that he's using the coiled sword in his breast as a key/acting as a gate keeper so that someone strong enough can do up the journey and quest.

>>47055764
Time is canonically fucked up around the events of each game. Past, future, and alternate possibilities are all intersecting.

So yes, Gwyndolin didn't die in the first game. But at the same time, he did. Same with Ornstein, Havel, and anyone else who showed up in both DS1 and DS3.

>>47068744
Given the discrepancy in coiled sword placement, maybe UG takes place in an alternate past that converges with our timeline, with the Ashen One acting as a mobile point of convergence (assuming the unknown challenger to the Champ was the Ashen One and not the swordmaster).

>>47068825
>Havel
From the very beginning FROM mentioned a whole fucking order of stone knight, multiple havels appearing in games have nothing to do with time being convoluted.
>Armor worn by Havel the Rock's warriors. Carved from solid rock, its tremendous weight is matched only by the defense it provides.
>Havel's warriors never flinched nor retreated from battle. Those unfortunate enough to face them were inevitably beaten to a pulp.

>>47068859
>Given the discrepancy in coiled sword placement, maybe UG takes place in an alternate past that converges with our timeline, with the Ashen One acting as a mobile point of convergence (assuming the unknown challenger to the Champ was the Ashen One and not the swordmaster).

It's entirely possible and probably IS possible, but I like to go with the theory that if you don't need "alternate timelines" for something to happen than it's most likely the strongest canon and therefor the most "likely".

There's no reason our friend Gundyr can't take the coiled sword from his bonfire and impale himself with it: it's there in the past, but missing in the "future", so there's that. Easy peasy.

The deal with the Swordmaster I think is VERY tricky- I'm not sure how he plays into all this, but he's definetly out there in the darkness.

If you look carefully: The Swordmaster is using the chaos sword found in the untended graves when you summon him to help you with Gundyr, BUT outside of the untended graves he's always summoned armed with his standard blade.. the mushi- mizaki- the japanese thingy.

You can loot the chaos blade from the tower -in the past- that the Swordmaster hangs around -in the future-

So, yes, that's what I got form all this.
I mean, if I had to make any great proclamations about the Swordmaster I think he's from the past and is just looking for good fights.

why are these threads so much nicer on /tg/ than on /v/?

>>47068993
>why are these threads so much nicer on /tg/ than on /v/?

/tg/ Has more constructive use for LORE than /v/ does due to it's inspiration and many potential applications towards traditional gaming, story-development and world building, etc..

>>47068993
Because /v/ is mostly underage and eat up anything vaatividya says without taking a moment to think about it themselves.

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>>47068990
>I mean, if I had to make any great proclamations about the Swordmaster I think he's from the past and is just looking for good fights.
>A samurai from the past, flung into a future where evil may or may not be law
>Possibly evil of a sort similar to that wielded by the shapeshifting devourer of gods

Son of a bitch.

Seriously, though, if UG takes place directly in the past on the same timeline as ours, and if Iudex is the future version of the Champ, then it does bring up the question of how the new bonfires and coiled swords came in. Who creates the coiled swords? Does Andre churn them out while the Ashen One is out adventuring?

And how much of the main Firelink Shrine is real? Both shrines have illusory walls, but the main shrine's Gundyr doesn't yield a boss soul or unlock equipment. Could that mean that the Champ and UG are the true forms while the Firelink versions are very, very convincing illusions?

>>47066601
>>47066671
>>47066853
>Soul Stream from DaS3
>Sorcery imparted by the first of the Scholars, when Lothric and the Grand Archives were but young. Fires a torrential volley of souls. The first of the Scholars doubted the linking of the fire, and was alleged to be a private mentor to the Royal Prince.

>Soul Geyser from DaS2
>A secret art unleashes a gush of souls. The homing soul mass pierces its target, then hits repeatedly for additional damage. This blasphemous spell is a family heirloom of Lord Aldia's. It was designed to pummel foes until it's power is entirely exhausted.

according to some guy that was researching jap translations
>Soul Stream ソウルの奔流 Soul Torrent ソウルの奔流 It should be noted that in Japanese, this is the same spell as "Soul Geyser" in Dark Souls 2. Also, the description of the spell in 2 calling it a family heirloom is erroneous; It is said to be An-Dil's (Aldia's) "legacy", suggesting that he created it.

>Scholar Ring
>In Lothric, the Scholar has long been considered one of the Three Pillars of the king's rule, and is therefore master of the Grand Archives.

>Oceiros later became fascinated with dragons and started experimenting with dragon shit
>Aldia was also quite famous for his research deep into the draygon stuff

>Shanalotte
>Ocelotte

HOW DEEP DOES THE MAJULA HOLE GO?

>>47069153
>eat up anything vaatividya says without taking a moment to think about it themselves.

Okay, I'm only going to mention this once since I don't want this to be a defining thing in the thread:

A lot of the /v/ Anons want to discuss lore and make lore videos, but they have a VERY REAL defeatist attitude towards the -very rational fear- of VaatiVidya simply stealing their material and taking the credit for himself.

The man basically made his fortune stealing all the lore dug up in /v/'s threads when it was released for the PC.

So, the Preachers in the Settlement

Are they emissaries of the Church of the Deep? And if so, who are they talking about when they say they're "cleanse the bastard's curse!"?

>>47062146
>>47062203
>>47062750
She could be either Gwynevere or one of her kids.

Given that she's the Mother of REBIRTH, I think she's a sort of "reborn" Gwynevere. Something big happened to her after she left Anor Londo and she underwent some kind of metamorphosis, becoming Rosaria.

>>47069247
>>Shanalotte
>>Ocelotte
>both born of dragons

"-lotte" is probably just a linguistic indicator of draconic heritage.

>>47069222
>Who creates the coiled swords? Does Andre churn them out while the Ashen One is out adventuring?

Andre or some other Blacksmith most likely churns them out one after another.

The Bonfires themselves are a simple enough recipie: You need Undead Bones, A coiled Sword and then an Undead to kindle the flame with their darksign- The Fire is initially fed by the Humanity in the Undead who kindled it, but later consumes the lingering souls/humanity left behind in the bones.

Firekeepers are capable of making higher quality bonfires though that can be made more grand; burning brighter and hotter as they're vessels for large amounts of humanity.

> Could that mean that the Champ and UG are the true forms while the Firelink versions are very, very convincing illusions?
See what I posted here: >>47068586

IUDEX Gundyr is very real, he's just DEAD, he's HOLLOWED: You steal his Soul (which represents his souls as a chosen undead) and he becomes hollow and infested with the abyss, but not before setting himself up as a hazard/challenge.

>>47069438
>Priscilla
>Yorshka

>>47069306
Uh, yeah, the set description straight up says that they're a branch of the Deep. Also, there are Evangelists (that's what they're called) in the church. The Deep Braille Tome you find in the cathedral is how you find their SUMMON BEES spell.

It's probably "I'll cleanse the bastard's curse," which is to say, "I'm going to kill this undead guy."

>>47057778
>>Yhorm tried, but instead burned out/created the Profane Flame. Still not sure exactly what all that is but I theorize he either tried to do more like the Witches of Chaos did when they tried to turn their souls into a new Flame, or alternatively as a Giant his soul was sufficiently "different" enough to not properly channel the power of the Flame.
The Profaned Capital is obviously unfinished and will probably get a little more explanation (if even just dialogue and item descriptions) in a DLC.

>>47069481
See, I'd think that as well, but her other comment is "Oh child, come to me!" when using the exact same spell.

I don't think she's considering you the "bastard", she's talking about someone else. She's cleansing you of a curse is what I got out of it.

>>47069306
>Are they emissaries of the Church of the Deep? And if so, who are they talking about when they say they're "cleanse the bastard's curse!"?

Yes, that's correct: They're Evangelists sent originally by the Pontiff Sullyvhan of the Cathedral of the deep to further spread his influence and power- this time to the undead settlement which was owned by the Lothric kingdom -a rival kingdom to anor londo-

The Evangelists basically coaxed the locals into planting trees in the undead, beheading the undead, putting them in cages and burning them. For some reason they were trying to process and get rid of the scores of undead over there, but for what purpose?

>>47069477
Artificial draconic heritage, then. It's implied that the Ancient Dragon was a fake since it drops a giant soul while the actual dragon soul is sitting in Brightstone Cove Australia. And it's also implied that the Herald was created by the Ancient Dragon, IIRC.

Does the Stormwhatever sword you use to geek Yhorm also squish the giants in the cathedral and Anor Londo?

We could settle once and for all if they are the same thing, Yhorm being one of those pit-face giants styled from DS2, and the others being confusing big dudes.

>>47058561
>I'm amazed you guys are getting away with these threads on /tg/.
Anything marked "lore thread" tends to survive. We've had a regular/semi-regular TES lore thread for like half a decade.

>>47069549
Nope.

>>47069525
>For some reason they were trying to process and get rid of the scores of undead over there, but for what purpose?
Judging by the Road of Sacrifices, they were being shipped off to the cathedral as food for Aldrich.

>>47069523
It could be that they're just crazy fucksticks. After all, they are trying to kill you by lighting themselves on FIRE and hugging you.

>>47069576
I guess, but maybe it's about the undead.

If they're attempting to cleanse the undead from the village, then that would be the curse in question, which fits.

The only question is, who's the bastard in that case?

>>47069560
>Judging by the Road of Sacrifices, they were being shipped off to the cathedral as food for Aldrich.

Oooooh shit, GOOD. FUCKING. OBSERVATION.

>>47059786
They're pilgrim butterflies. It's what the pilgrims turn into if they don't wear shells.
I like to think they're the seeds of new archtrees, which use the age of fire to reproduce, but I'm not some Vaatiot and know that's just headcanon.

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>>47069556
Fuck. Well, I have other ideas too. (Vaati, if you're reading this I want you to know I hate your guts.)

I was under the impression that the giants (hollow-faced ones DSII/Yhorm) style ones are somehow related to humans/hollows and the grey archtrees. It seems as though the hollows are sort of... turning into archtrees as we approach what seems to me to be the end of not just the cycle, but all cycles (the return to the age of the dragons, literal DaS heat-death.) The pit-giants seem to also have treelike/stonelike forms, and even turn into fucking trees. Could it be that when the first flame came about, the beings that arose (and the progenitors of humanity/giants) are somehow descended from the trees? If you think about it, hollows do no die, and are not quite alive. They would fit right in among the grey crags, archtrees, and everlasting dragons.

Is it possible that there is a greater cycle of return to the age of the stone dragons and springing forth of a new "first" flame that is even greater than the ages of light and dark? Could it be that said trees are simply what ends up of all life in the last phase? Maybe dragons are the only things that are capable of "surviving" this process? Could this be the other option Aldia sought? He too seemed to transform into a gnarly stone tree thingamabob.

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>>47069549
>Does the Stormwhatever sword you use to geek Yhorm also squish the giants in the cathedral and Anor Londo?

Nope.

>We could settle once and for all if they are the same thing, Yhorm being one of those pit-face giants styled from DS2, and the others being confusing big dudes.

With everything I've observed I'm 100% positive Miyazaki and the souls team don't do anything for "no reason".

I think the DS1 Giants are "Giants", but they're essentially a slave caste: look for instance at how different thralls are from regular humans.

I think the DS2 Giants and Yhorm are "Giants" as well, but they're simply "FREE" or "TRUE" Giants.
I also buy very strongly into the theory that the VERY EXPLICIT shadow in Yhorm's face (It can't just be his metal coif- it literally swallows up all light, you CAN'T ignore that aesthetics choice, it's too fucking explicit) is in the process of becoming a "fully hollowed" Giant where he becomes emaciated and his face is just fucking gone.

Like, that's just how Giant's hollow: They become demented and emaciated, their faces turn into holes and once they finally, truly, die/lose hope they turn into ELDER TREES (From the time of grey mist)

>>47060521
The giant worm in Smouldering Lake is Solaire.

>>47069794
Let's get spookier

Yhorm does have a pit face like DSII giants, but we know that DSII giant's pit face is quite literally a gaping HOLE, whereas Yhorm actually has a humanoid skull that we place on his throne in firelink.

Why do people think siegward is siegmeyer? They both have very different goals as hollow/unkindled and I imagine there must be a great span of time between the two games. I just think their mannerism is common among knights of catarina. If not, it could be that they were actually family and siegward slumbered until the bell rang. I just find it difficult to believe that they're one and the same.

>>47069794
>Yhorm being one of those pit-face giants styled from DS2
He's not. The guy has a face under that hood and a very human-looking skull.

>>47069438

OCEiros shanaLOTE
OCEiro hanaLOTE
OCEir anaLOTE
OCEi naLOTE
OCE aLOTE
OCELOTE

>>47069794
>>47069777
>>47069760

I think it's more likely that the Pilgrim butterflies are the exceptional byproduct of trees growing from the Undead Humans, but for the most part the process is extremely sketchy, artificial and mirred by failures.

They most likely wanted to or attempted to remove the curse from people (who they may have thought as contagious perhaps?) via planting TREES in them and hoping the Trees would just absorb and naturalize the curse but then you have..

You have the cursed greatwood.
They say the worst curses and cursed undead were planted and placed inside or as fertalizer for the greatwood and look how it turned out: it's a horrible fucking canopy of cadavers and is thoroughly cursed and evil.

When the fire fades all beings revert back to their original selves before flame existed: Humans turn into hollows or they retain themselves through their humanity, Gods shrink and shrivel up as the fire leaves them and Giants turn into trees as they are of the Arch-Trees originally.

Dragons, Drakes, Wyverns, Basilisks, Crystal Lizards- all reptiles though are of the Dragons and as long as they have stone scales I think it doesn't matter what age it is; they just keep carrying on.

>>47069794
>>47069872
Just throwing in some stuff I've noticed.
>I think the DS1 Giants are "Giants", but they're essentially a slave caste
As far as I can tell, DaS1 giants were re-modeled, they removed the flat face texture from 1 (which was completely hidden under the mask) and added circular holes (similar to giant warriors from DaS2 memories) under their mask in 3.
>I think the DS2 Giants and Yhorm
>>47069918 is right, Yhorm has a visible face in Siegward's Quest cutscene. Eyes, a nose, everything, definitely human-looking.

>>47055751
Are silver knights humans? Are they hollowed? Or are they part of that ill-defined "god/lord" race, much like Gwyn and family?

Does that extend to Artorias as well? He does become corrupted by the abyss. Likewise, it seems that Gwyn is "hollowed" at the end of DaS when we fight him in the kiln, assuming he's not an illusion or some crap. After all, he has burnt away his soul, and the process to being a hollow is to have lost all of your soul(s)/humanity.

Does this mean that lord/god/whatevers are still sort of humans? As in, human+? Can they be undead too? King Vendrick is a big guy, suggesting he's one of these lord things, but he's clearly hollowed.

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>>47067890
A human god. The previous gods (like Gwyn) seem to be some form of giant, not at all related to the Furtive Pygmy like humanity is.

>>47067976
Pretty sure it's just symbolic. Yuria literally says "What Lord is without a Lady?"

>mfw doing this after I expected a real marriage scene and thought I would have to fight Gwndolyn to win Anri's hand so I slowly walked all the way there with my shield up

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>>47069961
>>47069918

Okay.

Listen, pay close attention:

Fromsoft/Miyazaki, whoever the fuck is in charge of character design.

They would have not gone to all the fucking trouble of making Yhorm's face so sunken in if it wasn't a direct connection to the Dark souls 2 Giants.

He has some connection to them. They wouldn't make his face a fucking dark void that captures all light if he wasn't in some way a dark souls 2 Giant.

The aesthetic choice and design is too explicit to fucking ignore: you're getting all worked up over the fact that he has a face -which I'm not denying- but ignoring his "face".

There's something wrong with Yhorm's fucking face. They wouldn't just do it for no reason.

>tfw Aldia is confirmed to have taught Prince Lothric and advised him against linking the flame

based treeface does it again

>>47070003

Why marry a corpse tho, why not just some nice hollow girl with a sweet ass

>>47069962
The Silver Knights are likely demigods, as was Artorias. By DS3, the Silver Knights appear to have been corrupted by the Abyss. IIRC, when hit with a bladed weapon, their "blood" is the same color as Aldrich goop or very close to it.

Hollowing itself doesn't seem to be restricted to humans. There's all the zombie dogs running around, DS1's Great Hollow, and DS2's elephant knights (which are implied but not confirmed to be partially human). The Nameless King's character model also has a very hollow-esque head.

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>>47069957

>>47070047

So how can he be linked to the events of Das2 ? he wasn't a lord of giant I don't think (I mean his subjects in the cathedral are human-sized).

So was he a survivor of the Das2 giants ? do we have more clues on this ?

>>47070047
I think you might be headed in the right direction with the "facehole giants are hollowed giants" thing. But there's also the possibility that Yhorm might just be a really tall dude whos title is "the Giant" because of that. Or he could be the Giant Lord from way back in time even before DS2's flashbacks because THE FLOW OF TIME IS CONVOLUTED IN LOTHRIC LOL

>>47070061
She's undead, she'll come back eventually. Hell, maybe Anri is the one next to Yuria in the ending scene.

>>47064563
Then why don't you only get items for giving the crow musical items?