Pathfinder General - /pfg/
"She's the BBEG, not your waifu" Edition
Unified /pfg/ link repository:
>http://pastebin.com/YhdxTQS6
Ultimate Intrigue leaks:
>classes: http://imgur.com/a/tlwEX
>feats: http://imgur.com/a/PA4eT
>items: http://imgur.com/a/RzJiF
Old Thread: >>46358699
The best villains are the people doing the wrong things for the right reason!
A wanderer, someone who drifts from place to place on the breeze, enjoying the world and doing good deeds to protect the innocent, using cleverness and wit and not leaving an area until it is sufficiently aided and fortified, before inevitably leaving off on the wind. That is if >>46362079 # is to be believed. For archetypes, I almost feel like Chosen One who eventually gets a faerie dragon or psuedodragon familiar would be best.
>>46365255
What about the poor souls doing the right things for the wrong reason? Relegation to 'anti-hero' status or...?
>>46365255
so Hitler?
And possibly Trump considering what he wants is not what his policies will get him, but man does he try anyways?
This dragon is your friend! It fights for Law and Good!
>>46365213
>She's the BBEG, not your waifu
>implying that ever stopped me
>>46365295
I'd allow it, as a GM, personally. It would fit better than the typical outsider improved familiars.
>>46364908
NO. Not at all. Even a little bit.
Barbarian, maybe. But not monk. Even the zen archer is only kinda ok at it.
Whats your best Martial/Gished-based "anti-caster" build, /pfg/?
Remember that you must address several of the caster's usual defenses (flight, invisibility, etc)
Do young children of Always Evil races detect as Evil? Alignment reflects values and inclination, not necessarily actions, right?
Like obviously it's not moral or Good to murder someone for it but do they flag on the Evil Person Detector?
>>46365369
Please die.
>>46365413
Please don't be rude, we all share the same hobby here. Let's get along, it makes discussions more fun!
>>46365412
Remember that unless they're undead, a cleric, or an outsider with the Evil subtype, they only ping with detect evil if they're 5 or more HD.
>>46365255
What about someone who is simultaneously doing the wrong things for the right reasons, and doing the right things for very questionable reasons?I mean, c'mon, enchantments spells aren't that big a deal.
>>46365393
Warder into the Antimage PrC in PoW
>>46365412
Always evil isn't a thing in PF, that's a 3.5 thing.
And the answer is no, they wouldn't ping since you need to be either a Cleric, outsider, or someone with 5+ HD to ping on anything
>>46365427
I find your relentless cheerfulness to be more obnoxious than his arbitrary insults desu
>>46365393
Gifted Blade PsyArm with Vieled Moon + Sleeping Goddess
Each of your mindblades can be configured to address several defenses. Ultimate Intrigue blessed us with the Truthful weapon enchantment which adds to that.
>>46365351
If it doesn't work with the GM, then either Holy Guide or Tactician seems thematic enough
>>46365484
Ah, I'm sorry! I'll try to be less cheerful next time, but I still stand by not being rude!
Dear /pfg/,
How does a guy get his Animal Companion to scale with his character level rather than his class level using only 1pp?
>>46365518
God damn you
>>46365393
>Rider Saint Martha
>Lawful Good
>always depicted as a slut
>Caster Medea and Tamamo
>Neutral Evil and Chaotic Evil
>Just wants a loyal husbando
why?
>>46365583
That's not a nice thing to say, are you having a bad day? Let's talk it through, I want to turn that frown upside down!
Serious question here. How do I go about trying to make somewhat interesting or compelling backstories for characters?
I always feel like I can improve, but I don't know how to do so moving forward. For example...
I want to play a Kitsune fighter for a upcoming campaign. I have the character sheet mapped out, what feats and whatnot I'm going to take. Mechanics is all settled, but, how do I go about making it a relatively interesting character in terms of story?
So some ideas I have (feel free to give your own, rail on mine, or expand on them):
> Was a slave from youth used for menial labor until their teen years when they were made a gladiatorial fighter. The slave trading ring was eventually busted by local authorities and she was given her freedom. Seeks adventure to fill the whole of her missing childhood. (I know this is the one most likely to be railed, from my time lurking in these generals.)
>Raised in a large and populous city. During their youth was enamored by pit fighters and knightly tournaments. Parents though loving tried their best to steer them away from such a life. Eventually got into unsanctioned, underground fighting. It all came to a crash when they found out one of their parents worked for the people holding the fights and did far less reputable stuff to keep the family afloat. Have a falling out and they leave home to go be a legitimate adventurer and hone their martial prowess.
>>46365575
Boon Companion.
>>46365393
Arcane Archer with an AMF.
>>46365590
because there's literally nothing wrong with being a slut
>>46365623
Three sentence backstory, three things your character believes, three things your character fears.
>>46365412
>Like obviously it's not moral or Good to murder someone for it
Gygax (and probably Iomedae) disagrees. Orcs are orcs.
>>46365590
Tamamo is a selfish bitch willing to curse or kill those that get between her and senpai.
That's the secret, it's just like how Greta is Neutral Evil and she just wants a husbando. Like Greta, Tamamo is willing to do anything if it means keeping senpai to herself. Anything.
Hell, she isn't even honest with the player; that whole cutsey-bubbles thing? It's an act that cracks during periods of agitation or stress (example, that scene where she thinks senpai is interested in someone else, which also includes God-tier O~hohohoho.)
>>46365575
There is Nature Soul into Animal Ally, but that's for people who don't already have companions
There's also Druid VMC, but that doesn't come online until 11th level
>>46365626
Boon Companion isn't the worst thing in the world, sure, but I'm talking about Druid 1/Wizard 19, for example, and Boon Companion bringing that little dog all the way up to a solid 5 isn't going to cut it.
Is there no more effective way?
>>46365636
yea seriously.
I didn't even get that he considered the "always depicted as being a slut" as a bad thing until the second part where apparently waifu=/=slut.
Personally, I want my waifu to enjoy sexual.
>>46365623
>Three beliefs
>How does adventuring help affirm your beliefs?
>How does it help defy them?
>Three goals
>How does adventuring help meet your goals?
>Three fears
>How does adventuring help overcome your fears?
>What made you start adventuring? Describe the event in three sentences.
>>46365508
Alternatively, this but with Augmented Blade. You only have one mind blade and you have to have a real weapon to attach it to but you can reconfigure it practically on the fly and get access to magic weapon properties normal soulblades can't get.
What's the secret to not looking like a loser if you want a character to use a katana?
Where would you place the DC to rip off the head of a character? What feats or spread should I take to accomplish this?
>>46365738
don't want to use a katana?
Use the katana stats but just call it a sword or a longsword?
>>46365743
None. Or maybe like 15 +5/(size above small) once it's dead
>>46365685
Retrain that Druid level into a Wizard level, then do what>>46365680
Says
>>46365738
Use a nodachi.
>>46365610
>>46365738
Don't call it a Katana, call it a "war knife"
>>46365776
I'm trying to rip off the head of an evil child, so it is small. I want to rip off the evil child's head because that is a clean and painless death.
Would a brawler be good at cleanly ripping the heads off of children?
>>46365822
Oh, it's you again OR a copycat. Go away.
>>46365778
I can't use Animal Ally because both the classes I'm taking provide Animal Companions, so it doesn't matter which one I attempt to retrain.
I said Druid 1/Wizard 19 as an example, but a much better example would be Druid 1/Hunter 19.
My objective is to have one companion that scales with my character level and the other to scale off my Hunter level so that both of them are useful.
>>46365822
Go away. You were that edgelord from a few weeks ago, and we already told you to piss off with it.
If it's not you, then sorry but your joke is shit and you should feel bad.
>>46365822
>rip
>clean and painless
No it isn't. You are going to stretch those nerves to the breaking point before they break. Great-axe through the skull is probably the best way. Destroy the brain while dealing as little damage everywhere else as possible.
And hold the fuck on. Evil child? what?
>>46365872
Some faggot a while back was arguing that ripping the head off of a child which may or may not be evil was the most sensible thing to do as a LG character.
>>46365872
Don't respond, he's either an idiot edgelord, or meming like >>46365840
>>46365860
Said
>>46365811
We're all in this together, anon~, we like to fight but we always make up at the end of a general.
You are all lovely people, and I'm happy to shitpost with you!
>>46365897
oh. wow. yea...what the fuck? band or rapist murder-hoboes who ping CE form miles away? Ripping head off child seems reasonable.
LG? what the fuck man...
>>46365738
Use a rhoka. It's even dorkier and is practically only seen in video games, but people don't know about it. Its stats put it only slightly better than a scimitar, though.
>>46365857
Alright, instead of playing a Hunter then, play either a Beastmaster Ranger or Huntmaster Cavalier. It won't be full level, but you won't have to MC, because there is really no way to do what you want in PF
>>46365897
So... I resurrected him by bringing up the kids of evil races earlier in the thread?
Speaking of shitty bait...
This is something I wish WAS bait.
A character's backsotry involves rape. Lots of it. What is the best way togentlytell him to grow the fuck up?
>>46365962
>Huntmaster Cavalier
You nailed it.
I'm trying to figure a way for Hunting Pack to actually be useful.
Why would a person ever choose to bring two dogs when they'll both be slaughtered if they could just bring one that's actually decent?
I've been looking into it for some time now and I figured if anywhere knew better than I did, it'd be /pfg/, but I guess it's like you say: there is really no way to do what you want in PF.
I want to make a Vigilante for play in Jade Regent, Younger Sibling (Ameiko) trait to go with it.
>"I'll show Onee-chan that I can be an adventurer too!"
>>46366015
If you're the dm you could tell him that's inappropriate for the game you're seeking to run. If not you could bring it up with the dm that it makes you uncomfortable.
>>46366015
Who, the character or the player?
For both, dwelling on the past and what-could-have-been is not healthy.
>>46366015
If you're the GM:
Tell him you don't think it's tastefully handled for such a serious topic, and it will bring either unnecessary or unrealistic drama to the party dynamic which you don't want present.
>>46365982
More than likely it's just some guy trolling.
>>46366015
Point your finger at the door, tell him that subject delivered in that manner is not appropriate for the table. If he throws a fit, tell him that immature behavior does not belong at the table, and he has 5 minutes to either calm down and act like an adult, or leave
>>46366040
>tfw I was in a Jade Regent campaign where my Paladin of Kurgess ends up becoming an item with Ameiko's younger sister, a PC.
She was described as spunky, skinny, flat, and adorable.
>>46366075You lucky bastard. What was the younger sister's class, do you remember?
>>46366047
>>46366058
>>46366069
I'm the DM. I know I can just say fuck off but the guy is actually a really good friend. Is there a way I could turn this into a teaching moment? I was really surprised that he brought this to me at all.
The tldr of his story is that his mother was in a town that was sacked by an army. he had a shitty life because she was kinda shitty to him so he left. Joined some raiders and then, after much late raping someone, realized what a terrible fucking person he was, joined a church, and is now trying to right all the wrongs in the world.
I mean is kinda a cool motivation, I just want to do a good job of explaining to him why its bad and I'm worried I will fuck it up IRL.
>>46366015
I'm not sure I have enough context to even understand what the problem is.
Is the character a constant victim of rape with a huge victim complex now?
Are they an evil asshole who rapes a ton of people and you expect that they'll continue to insert rape into your game while under the guise of 'roleplaying'?
Are they just using gobs and gobs of rape for no reason for both their own character and others to just cheapen the entire experience and make rape out to be no big deal?
I could think of maybe 5 ways off the top of my head that a story involving 'lots of rape' wouldn't be automatically immature. What if dude's just playing the Half-Orc son of an Orcish warlord with lots of brothers and sisters who were (obviously) the products of rape? What if dude was in a war and saved a bunch of prisoners of war after he learned the soldiers had been raping the women for weeks? What if dude's some investigator looking for a serial rapist/murderer?
Are all of these examples automatically immature just because they deal with rape?
If you made some initial ultimatum already like, "Hey, no rape at the table," I can understand why you'd be annoyed, but without some kind of context, I don't know that what you're seeing is a legitimate problem.Even though it probably is, because fa/tg/uys are famously fucking immature.
>>46365650
Wait a minute....
Aroden
>God of humans.
>Was from the ancient race of humans that died out
>Presumably taught Iomadae to be how she is
>Is dead
Is Aroden Gygax?
>>46366134
>Bad kid joins bandits
>Rapes someone
>Feels regret
>Tries to be a good guy
Anon, I'm having trouble seeing the 'lots of rape' you mentioned.
Are you completely certain that you're not being a little obtuse?
>>46366130
She was arogue.After clearing out the Brinestrump goblins and heading back to Sandpoint for celebration, my character and her's wandered the streets enjoying that small-town air while gloating about our accomplishments. She points out I saved her ass with a timely smite, calls me her "hero", and dramatically swooned to to be caught, and asked how she could repay her.
My guy princess carried her, she started giggling, and my guy asked for a kiss. She gave him the lopsided grin that every Kaijistu has and said, "you know you could get more than just a kiss."My guy gently turned her down since it was obvious they'd fuck eventually, so they settled on an extremely adorable kiss under lamp-light in Sandpoint.
>>46366134
That is actually a mature and proper way to handle rape.Just don't let this thing find him.
>>46365255
So, like, someone who seizes power over a nation, then begins rounding up and executing everyone who's ever written lame deconstuctionist fantasy?
>>46366176
>>46366195
>>46366235
I'm reasonably certain that one of my other players has been actually raped IRL. I'm not 100%, and I don't think anyone knows, but I just really don't want to even bring it up while we are all having fun and drinking at my table.
I'm mainly just worried about dropping my spaghetti while telling him "no", and I really don't want to "out" the other player. at all.
Any advice?I was hoping for advice before you knew about the other player, because I don't want you advice to somehow "out" them, or get my friend thinking about it too much.
>>46366315
Oh, that makes sense. That's the sort of context that makes a difference. I think this advice is pretty good, personally: >>46366058 except that maybe instead of challenging his ability to handle it tastefully, instead make it seem like it's your inability to handle it tastefully while GMing. Some shit about maybe being inexperienced with the subject matter and not wanting it to get out of hand. Then it's all on you and the guy doesn't feel insulted or have any reason to look for a further cause in other players' experiences.
Provide some decent alternatives to his having raped this person in his backstory? Maybe he tortured this person for information instead? Maybe he permanently crippled them by taking it too far and regrets what he did? Maybe he accidentally got a family member of theirs killed? Some other serious thing that could cause a person to reflect on what they've done but that isn't sexually explicit, so that he doesn't have to radically alter his backstory, and you still get what you want.
>>46366315
at first i was all "whats the problem", but now i am all "well shit".
>>46366234
I just dawww'd so hard!
>>46366382
>instead make it seem like it's your inability to handle it tastefully while GMing
This is perfect. Thanks. I can move the focus onto how I don't like it/am uncomfortable with it, and then he won't suspect anything else is going on.
>>46366234
JR remains waifu central, I see.I waifu'd Ameiko, but you have good taste.
>>46366382
Also, discuss this player's backstory in private, not in front of your rape victim player or anyone else. The advice in this post is pretty solid if you replace rape with crippling a kid or something. Something very expensive magical healing can cure, but is permanent without it, that makes him worthless as a peasant farmer - a lost leg, perhaps, or crushed kneecaps, or severed hamstrings. Regeneration would generally be mandatory for all of those things, and it isn't cheap.
This gives you a plot element for future use - that crippled kid's parents take a loan from a bad dude baron to pay for new knees or whatever, and are forced into debt slavery. The kid escapes later on and seeks revenge on the PC, probably learning curse magic to curse the PC with really-hard-to-remove no-knee-itus or something like that.
>Playing Rise of the Runelords
>Friend is a Paladin of Shelyn, priority number 1 is to bed all the waifus of the campaign
>Got to Shayliss, almost got to Ameiko, confident in his romantic abilities
>We're taking a ship to Turtleback Ferry and Shalelu is with us
>Paladinbro gets plenty of alone time with her
>They do the deed
>Right before she leaves, she looks back:
>You were...good...for a Human
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2s7CjaXpH6k
>>46366315
>I'm reasonably certain that one of my other players has been actually raped IRL.
Talk to this player first. Like:
>Hey, one of the other characters might have some stuff about rape on his background, I know this kinda of thing might weird you out, so I wanna know if I should tell him to change it or are you're okay with it?
Also if you don't want to tell the person that you know, change to:
>I'm asking everybody, because it's a mature subject and I wanna make sure noone gets weirded out about it, but one of the other characters might have some stuff about rape on his background, so I wanna know if I should tell him to change it or are you're okay with it?
Take everybody aside, one by one, to have this conversation, don't single out the person. It's the kinda of thing you should before introducing any strong topics like abusive relationships or torture.
IM GONNA ROLL AN ORC GUNSLINGER AND CALL HIM MAX PAYNE, AND YOU CAN'T DO NOTHING TO STOP ME
CANNOT DO
CAN DO NOT
YOU'RE POWERLESS
>>46366544
Have fun!
>>46366544
just dual class in some spellcaster with timefuckery shenanigans and I won't be even mad
>>46366544
>Gunslinger
Its shit. Roll a gunsmoke mystic instead.
Bonus: Grab some Riven Hourglass to pull off some matrix-type bullet time stuff.
>>46366537
I was hoping to avoid this. We are normally just casual and I think that this would let on to the player that I know about it, and let on to the others that its an issue for the party.
It is a sensitive thing, because if I just say:
"someone gaming with us might not be comfortable with that"
I'm almost certain that my friend or the other players will put two and two together. I want to avoid that if at all possible.
There is also no way i could ask:
"I'm asking everybody, because it's a mature subject and I wanna make sure noone gets weirded out about it, but one of the other characters might have some stuff about rape on his background, so I wanna know if I should tell him to change it or are you're okay with it?"
Of the person who was raped and not spill my spaghetti and inform them that I know.
>>46365213
>not posting superior loli versionI am so goddamn mad that we lost Inori Minase's voice and got that squeaky Misaki Kuno voice instead
Tell me about the magical girls, why do they wear the hat?
>>46366771
They steal them from wizards along with theirvirginity
>>46366771
Because they're always trying way too hard.
>>46366315
One thing that has been common at the tables I have played at is sitting down with everyone session 1 and just asking everyone if there is any subject matter they are uncomfortable with.
But if you feel that one other player may have a problem with it, either talk to the person and see how they feel, or explain that some members may not be comfortable with that, and ask them to alter it.
>>46366771
They would die without it
>>46366632
People that got abused and such usually develop a thick skin for certain things, or living normally would be impossible for them. Just don't insist too much on themes you suspect could be annoying and you'll be fine.
>>46366771
Its actually their arcane focus
>>46366826
>They would die without it
Wanna test that theory?
>>46366771
None care who they are until they put on the hat.
If the hat is removed, it will spell agony and death. Illustration: Results of forcible hat removal.
I unironically love girls in large witch hats and have never seen your animes. Please post as many as you have.
>>46366771
It's cute.
>>46366857
See>>46366863 for visual proof.
>Marisa dies
>no hat
What are some fun ways to multiclass?
I want to multiclass for my next character since I normally play just straight whatever with maybe a one or two level dipis it even worth it?
>>46366866
They're wizard hats, aren't they?
>>46366903
3+ levels of aegis
5 levels of forgelord
3 levels of hawkguard warder
Much of the 1st party stuff is dangerously bad to multi-with (most, not all, but the most includes PRCs as well) but when you hit 3rd party stuff things get very interesting.
You should always be careful to match good saves and get the most out of your multiclass, but there's plenty of builds here and there that get very interesting or sometimes outright vicious.
Are unchained monks as simple as regular monks are, or are their ki abilities a whole complicated system? I've never played one. Like is it okay to point a brand-new player to the class?
Why does Council of Thieves suck, /pfg/?
>>46366903
Depends on what you are doing, aegis is always a good dip, 1-2 levels of fighter can be useful if you need the feats for something, just remember never lower your CL, and always have a goal with your multiclassing.
>>46366903
Two levels of Conversion inquisitor on a zen archer. It is amazing.
There is the ever popular Fighter 1/Cleric X
>>46366985
If they are trying to play a core monk for the love of god point them at unchained.Or anything else for that matter.
>>46366987
Because Paizo wrote it.
How do I make a good Path of Whore character? What are the best disciplines?
>>46367009
Just take Marital Training and avoid the headache.
>>46366857
Please don't bully the magical girls, they did nothing wrong.
>>46367009
>>46367019
*War not Whore
>>46367009
>>46367019
Did I just step into bizarro /pfg/?
>>46366985
I think their Ki abilities are actually easier, because you're allowed to just not pick ones that you don't want rather than being stuck with Wholeness of Body and having to wonder about when to use it for the rest of your character's life.
That being said, there are some added complexities with the Style abilities which were added to Flurry of Blows and some players would find choosing their Ki abilities to be more daunting than just being granted them.
I think for ease of play, regular Monk is best, but both Monk and Unchained Monk have a lot of issues and aren't particularly effective without a lot of effort and system mastery.
I wouldn't recommend either class to a new player, honestly.
>>46366863
>None care who they are until they put on the hat.
No wonder they're a Vigilante archetype.
Did the "High level games should give soulknifes the gifted blade archetype" sidebar get removed from the pfsrd page or something? Can't find it anymore
>>46367051
No one cares about Vigilantes. period.
>>46367029
Some magical girls did nothing wrong.
And then there's the magical girls who ruined EVERYTHING.
>>46367064
I do. I love Mode Change characters.
>>46366903
AntiPaladin 3 / Dread X
You only need 3 levels of AntiPali for the bonus to saves, fear aura and bad-touch ability.
You can then proceed to Dread and be jubilant when the class features compliment each other so well
>>46367064
I like vigilantes. If I didn't, I wouldn't be making spheres archetypes for em.
>>46367009
Depends on 'best' you want.
Broken Blade and Primal Fury are the most powerful until they get errata'd (and they ARE on said chopping block). So they are best.
Elemental Flux is the most versatile and all-around effective of the disciplines thanks to the wide range of abilities and choice of four elements whenever which it offers. It does not really have any weaknesses and offers excellent power.
Riven Hourglass is the action-economy-buggerer. While not actually all that powerful, it is #1 best in "AND I ALSO WANT THIS ONE" disciplines. You do not have your main source of maneuvers in this one. But you will never go wrong having it as your second or main 'support', especially at the highest levels with its final stance. Truly excellent, and (until some likely errata) at low levels one of the very rare ones where you can actually WANT to use a strike to deal a status effect instead of full attacking, because "and the target only gets to take a standard or move on its next turn" is NOT a stagger you can be immune to, and "as if slowed for the next round" is NOT as slow you can be immune to. That's right: Riven Hourglass provides some of the ONLY status effects a non-wizard can EVER hope to reliably actually cause, especially at higher levels where everyone and their mother is fucking immune to anything you hope to ever fucking do. Fuck.
Silver Crane and Veiled Moon are very versatile and can offer some pretty good abilities, can't really go wrong with using those, but they're overshadowed by those above.
>>46367071
Magical Child did nothing wrongNeither did Homu
>>46365738
A katana is all you have for some reason or another?
You came from an area where it's the common sword?
None of that makes you look like a weeb loser.
>>46367104
>Broken Blade and Primal Fury are the most powerful until they get errata'd (and they ARE on said chopping block). So they are best.
at ruining your game and keeping your DM from ever allowing 3rd party material.
>>46367003
Can anyone give some reasons why Council of Thieves sucks as an AP compared to other ones?
>>46367148
Paizo.
Why do all of the new Divine Obediences and Evangelist boons suck total dick compared to the original ones?
Irori gives you, like, a +4 bonus to all bonus to Knowledge checks.
Alseta gives you a +4 bonus to Disable Device checks dealing with doors and a +4 bonus to Perception checks dealing with doors.
Yeah...
>>46367104
Most of the others are by no means BAD, but are either highly situational: black seraph for example is happiest with certain intimidate builds (OH UNHOLY FUCK when you pair it with a Dread), but otherwise not as great. Same with Sleeping Goddess, that thrives on psionic characters that focused on Mind-Affecting abilities.
They can easily be your primary, but you either build FOR them, or you could get better or equal elsewhere with less drawbacks. Solar Wind is an example too; you can get some powerful shit out of that, but it's ALL "more damage" ALL the time, and it's one element of your choice (fire/acid/elec/cold, but only that one) only so you gotta take that into account as well (though some feats now help greatly with this).
Iron Tortoise can power shields and is okay, and Golden Lion is quite decent, offering strong boosts and buffs and even some heals for the party, but is entirely melee not only for you, but requires most of the party to be too. Most rubato would be a lot happier if at least THEY could use this shit for the front-liners from range. But they can't.
Then there's the trash. The true trash. BUT EVEN THEY HAVE A HIDDEN GEM OR TWO. Tempest Gale is nothing but ranged combat maneuvers, and it isn't great at them because so much of the support for combat maneuvers in the game outside of Tempest Gale is "melee only", so your bonuses can't be that great. It hides some high level monstrosities though like "as a standard action expend this strike and your attack is a natural 20. yes, a natural 20". Thrashing Dragon is the dual-wielding one. It kinda sucks. Piercing Thunder or whatever it is is the lance charging one. And it isn't very good. In fact, it has abilities where you throw your weapon, and uh. That's it, you better have put "returning" or blinkback ON YOUR FUCKING HEAVY LANCE.
>>46367166
because the old ones were op
>>46367146
>Corrolary: When all it takes to completely ruin a game is more damage, the very foundations of said game had already been embezzled in the 80s
>>46367153
Also Paizo
But for a more in depth viewPaizo made it what the fuck were you expecting? Well too bad it is by Paizo you want good ap? You want not railroad bull shit? Well too bad Paizo has appeared. You see that Paizo demon on the cover, it steals all your fun, you should run child before it consumes you entirely.
>>46367153
>>46367202
you are seriously not being helpful
>>46367189
Pretty much this.
While the DM gets annoyed that the stalker is doing a single attack that does approx. the same damage as a full attack at a single enemy for one round,
He ignores the wizard who summons 2 celestial tigers with pounce while his familiar casts from his wand and puts all the enemies on the map to sleep for 1d4 turns in a single turn.
Yeah, wow. PoW is OP guise!
>>46367148
It's somewhat difficult to lay the blame at the feet of any single factor, but there are a lot of individual details that work together to just make it not all that satisfying.
-It caps out at low levels
-Significant majority of enemies are just Humanoids with class levels
-Urban romp lacking a lot of the subsystems that make an urban romp fun i.e. Contacts, Fame/Reputation, Pursuit, Research, Downtime
-The whole of the campaign seems to take place in the same cityI personally don't mind this; I think Westcrown is really cool.
-Apparently the BBEG(s) are written to be a big reveal, but any idiot should know ahead of time
-Mechanically, it still uses all of 3.5's ruleset, meaning you're on your own for converting every single statblock in every single book.
I dunno, I've only read the first three books, and, though I have adventured in Westcrown, I haven't played any part of this adventure, so I can't say from experience, but a lot of people seem to have the same ideas about it.
>>46367219
Neither was Paizo when they made that AP.
>>46367219
We are. We're telling you that you made the big mistake of picking up a game system made by Paizo when you could have invested in5e
>>46367169
Iron Tortoise throwing great swords at people is always fun though. But that is a very specific build.
>>46367239
Forget the summoner. It's the wizard who teleported the party two weeks east straight to the pyramid they never had a chance to get lost looking for that fucked half the adventure.
>>46367250
You meanAnything
>>46367166
If I had to guess, it'd be some bullshit from Paizo about how these are literally just 'weaker deities'.
They also have fewer/worse Domains in many cases, and, with the exception of only a few, most of their favored weapons are awful compared to the major deities.
I'd like to think they(Paizo) at least give that reason, as unfair as it is, rather than just saying, "Hurf durf, we think they're just as powerful," but you know what they say:
Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.
>>46367239
>He ignores the wizard who summons 2 celestial tigers with pounce while his familiar casts from his wand and puts all the enemies on the map to sleep for 1d4 turns in a single turn.
except no he doesn't he asks that player to stop being an ass.
>>46367276
What, you want my familar to twiddle his thumbs doing nothing every turn?
>>46367305
>Familiar
Okay, I actually lol'd.
>>46367136
>implying
>>46367254
If by "very specific build" you mean "any Zweihander Sentinel", then yeah sure.
>>46365743
That's a coup de grace, dude. Follow the rules and use your unarmed damage.
You may wish to invest into the Throatslicer feat to make it quicker.
>>46367276
Okay, different scenario:
The wizard is a classic evocation caster. Damage sucks compared to the rest of the party.
But he and his valet familiar has been spending every free time crafting so much enchanted gear, they could open a magical imperium and have wealth several times beyond their level and enough wondrous items in his inventory that he can slap as many defense bonuses on himself as possible.
>>46367425
stop making hypothetical scenarios where the DM is braindead not to veto any of the bullshit super-wizard can do with unlimited downtime.
Hello everyone. I'm here to talk about a serious thing.
Romantic subplots in APs. I've come here before because I have been designing an AP. I have talked about the general plotting (which I can post again if anyone is interested). Now I am here to talk about important NPCs and possibly romantically involved NPCs.
I have a few to start out, three male and four female. I'll briefly talk about the male ones in my next post. First though, what do you, the consumer/player look for in NPCs particularly ones with possible romantic subplots?
>trying to make a barebones Swashbuckler as an NPC, because one of the people the players will be interacting with (and maybe having duels against in the big tournament) is a sassy pirate captain
>give her a cutlass
>none of her class features can use the iconic pirate weapon
What kind of one-track-mind ape made this overly rigid NPC class? Did they poach the writer over from WotC who designed the Paladin?
>>46367437
So, you're just telling the wizard in your group to do absolutely nothing with any of his class features like the free crafting feats and shit?
>>46367437
These aren't hypothetical. ONLY when the DM stops each and every instance of "caster being anything other than classic evocation blaster or healbitch" does he prevent "shenanigans". Anything that slips through or that he doesn't mind, though?
Meanwhile the guy who just does damage and causes no headaches has not only the entire mechanics of the game trying to keep him down, but then because he grabs an option that doesn't suck half the GMs out there turn around and go "NO! I may allow dominate, I may not think there's anything wrong with wish because he can only cast it a few times a day, I may be completely incapable of understanding that 'ennervate' just ENDED the encounter, the BBEG just hasn't dropped just yet, but this? Being able to kill one of the BBEG's Lieutenants IN A SINGLE ROUND? NOT AT THIS TABLE YOU MINMAXING CHEATING PIECE OF SHIT!
bit of a double standard don't you think?
>>46367492
I look for what's wrong with these people that they would be interested in someone who wades in ork-gut for a living and disappears for weeks at a time sometimes never returning.
Then I'd figure out which one amuses me the most in that fashion, and set my buddy up with her.
>>46366015
"We don't touch the subject of rape at this table. It doesn't happen as the result of player actions, it won't happen as the result of DM actions, and as player backstory it's contrived, cliche or cringeworthy"
Be up front about it. If someone is playing a half-orc and wants to be a 'rape-child' it is shortened to a foot note of something like 'didn't know father' (consensuality is ambiguous) or 'grew up in orphanage'/'was taken in as a ward of [fightan school]'.
I'm no Puritan, but its a subject I refuse to touch in my own tabletop.
>>46367492
Originality.
I'm sick of bog-standard 'candlelight and roses' romances. Gimme a strong woman to wrestle or a single mother looking for a father rather than one more magical damsel in distress.
>>46367492
Personally, I don't like the idea of Designated Romantic Interest NPCs; just let your players develop relationships with characters organically instead of going 'you choose between these three guys' like you're playing Harvest Moon or something.
>>46367501
I believe the feat Slashing Grace was supposed to alleviate that.
>>46367534
Okay good enough.
>>46367501
The swashbuckler was not designed to make NPC pirates.
The swashbuckler was specifically designed from the ground up to punish players for wanting to be a martial pirate, a martial musketeer (well triply-which-is-secretly-quadruply so if actually wanting to make a musketeer with an actual pistol sidearm) or a martial swashbuckler of some sort.
Hell, none of its class abilities can be combined; they all eat up the same one/rd swift action, JUST FOR MORE FUCK YOU
>>46367492
For those in my game and are on /pfg/, I will be spoiling these.
Male:Ellis Deiter is a young human priest of Irori, seeking the god because of his crippled leg. It was crushed as a child by a falling horse. He is introduced to the campaign as a healer helping the wounded of the city. In personality he is stern but nurturing.
Robert Veinn is the second son of a minor noble family who has recently been pushed into becoming heir after his elder brother died due to complications of being kicked in the head by a horse. He runs away with the party in an attempt to flee responsibility. He is also hiding his heritage as a half elf, having been born of the union between his father and his mistress. In personality he is a free spirit, quick to emotion and brash.
Gordon Ancheks is a sitting member of the Evengale council and moderate. He is introduced to the party mid book two, but is only met in person at the beginning of book three. He seeks to save the world through understanding it, reverse the problem rather than working around it. In personality he is a quiet man and eccentric. Quick to laugh and lacking much needed self confidence, but capable of political maneuvering when pushed.
Next post I'll talk about the female ones.
>>46367525
We generally stay ten feet away from it, but sometimes... SOMETIMES... our table has played it for good laughs.
Like the time the pervert was a tiny PC sprite...
>>46367501
cutlasses work fine with swashbuckler if you take slashing grace, and it's the same number of feats as if you were taking fencing grace.
But yeah, SB chafes pretty hard
>>46367548
Yeah as I jot down notes on class features for this level 3 NPC, I'm just getting the vibe that I'm writing down an assload of very irrelevant garbage. What a bloated mess to achieve so very, very little.
>>46367501
P A I Z O
A
I
Z
O"Because Paizo" may as well be a meme
>>46367626
Make a Fighter, it can do more at the same weapon style with one of a number of archetypes and a handful of feats than the Swash gets done with its own class.
The female ones are the following:
Samantha Moore is the half-orc second in command of The Brass Bellows, a mercenary company specializing in paramilitary actions for the semi-organized crime underground. Introduced to the NPCs mid book 1, she works with them towards finding the abducted citizens (her brother is one such abductee, though she hides it). Full of anger and regret over what happened with her brother she is slow to warm up to newcomers (the PC), but kind to her company.
Lione Finn is a elf spy in service to Gordon Ancheks, investigating the slave trade and abduction of citizens. She is introduced in book 2. As a character she is intensely loyal to Gordon and the Ancheks due to them taking her in as a child (Gordon actually feels a lot of guilt over this because they took her in to train her to be a soldier, that's why he keeps her out of the capital often). Her loyalty leads to a stern attitude and general disregard for her safety over the cause.
Sibeth Fay is twenty second in line to the throne and third daughter of the Fay branch family. Essentially she is distinctly connected to the current queen, but most more closely than most nobility. She lacks the power and connections of others she has something else. The blood taint stemming from the throne (and indeed what the current queen has) she has showing of. This is hidden and causes not only her, but her family, great terror. Timid and fearful, she tried to avoid court politics to a degree (but is pulled into them in book three after one of the villains realizes she is much easier to abduct to get samples of the blood taint)
Alright, multiple threads late and all, but I was browsing the screenshots and one of you stupid fucks thought calling fey was super powerful because they have a good HD:CR ratio. They don't, chucklefuck, they generally have 3 HD to 2 CR or 2:1 in cases like dryads or bagienniks. Which one of you stupid fucks thought that?
>>46367532
More than designated "romance" NPCs these are NPCs designated as ones that are likely to stay with the party over long periods of time (rather than being met and then unseen for long periods of times, instead once introduced these characters are likely to stick). Also these are prominent NPCs in the age range to be attractive to PCs normally (though there is a rather dashing old man that is important if we have any granny PCs).
>>46367530
I see, thank you.
>>46367520
Ok cool, everyone has to have issues. I think characters should have a drive, something they are either working towards or running away from.
>>46367689
One level of swashbuckler can still be worth it
weapon finesse with one-handed piercing weapons is quite nice
>>46367689
Fighters aren't allowed to be sassy and suave though.
>>46367710
All fey are full spellcasters.
Let me repeat that for you.
ALL FEY ARE FULL SPELL CASTERS.
>>46367492
Home to return to. One of my favorite characters was a 'sky knight' (think paladin on a bird) in love with / loved by a nymph that lived in an isolated sacred grove at the top of a mountain.
Whenever he was weary of adventure, he'd return to her (and pray to his god, advance his class levels and such. She helped ease his emotional burdens, soothe his fears and always gave him the push to go back out into the world to do good, because she'd always be waiting for him in her grove.
>>46367710
>They don't, chucklefuck, they generally have 3 HD to 2 CR or 2:1 in cases like dryads or bagienniks. Which one of you stupid fucks thought that?
Currently in reight of winter. The fey are fucking assholes. Dimunative snipers shooting poison darts...we couldn't even touch those fucking fuck faces. God damn.
>>46367520
Adventuring husbandfu leaves vast amounts of wealth at home, goes off to fight BBEG, never comes home, being good leaves you large sum of money, party gives you part now have huge dowry.
>>46367710
Fey are pretty much Tucker's Kobolds cranked to 11
>>46367723
For the record, while that anon may not the whole "Candlelight romance" thing, Many do, myself included.
>>46367707
Tsundere, kyudere and shrinking violet?
>>46367767
See that's right under what I'm talking about.
Your example, for example, is "evil golddigger who's probably fucking the baker on the side"
>>46367739
Fighters should be allowed to pick their good save and their class skills. Take the custom class concept and COMMIT to it Paizo.
>>46367787
every one of them has something like "at will dominate" or "is just invisible all the time" or "diminutive size with a +30 CMB" or "spring attack, reach, and 300 fly speed"
They are all 100% assholes.
>>46367792
That's all fine, but monopolizing romance options with only one method is shit, regardless of which are the 'preferred methods'.
I'm not asking for every woman to be wooed by a wrestling competition; I'm just asking that not EVERY woman be wooed by poetry and violins.
>Aged Hobgoblin Oracle
>level 5
>25 pb
I just realized how good of stats this gives you. It puts you at the following spread:
-1/+1/+1/+3/+3/+3
This means I can have the following stats:
Str:9
Dex:14
Con:14
Int:16
Wis:16
Cha:20
Those are damn good base stats. Thinking of what kind of oracle I want to be as well, possibly Lore, but kinda feeling Dark Tapestry.
>>46367819
How does picking class skills work? It would be nearly identical to all skills being in-class since they'd be picking more skills than they actually could have the skill points to assign to, unless they spend skill points in different things every level.
Reminder toBullyyour casters.
>>46367853
Archer Paladin / Lore Oracle
That +5 to AC & Saves is too good to pass up
>>46367844
I think we can both agree that variety is a good thing.
>>46367740
No they aren't, fagatron.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/fey/korred
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/fey/huldra
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/fey/bagiennik
Learn what you're talking about or fucking kill yourself.
>>46367792
I see what you mean. It has to give a variety of options.
>>46367797
In a way, yes? I actually did miss one of the options, posted it before writing her up. She's one of the Weather Witches who you meet early on in the game (chapter 2 of book 1) and don't meet again till book 3 (seeing her again in The Garden where all the nobles are). She's powerful and confident, cruel when required, and ambitious.
>>46367844
One should be capable of finding many characters along the way.
>>46367742
Ah, that may be hard to find here as the theme of the campaign is the slow heat death of the prime material.
>>46367866
Do not bully the Megumin. Megumins are forlewd cuddling.
Bully Dorkness instead
>>46367867
If I was gonna be an archer Dark Tapestry does it better I would think.
>>46367882
>>46367742
Waifu bards that listen without judging (and help work social aspects) are pretty great too.
>>46367882
You aren't fit for anything pretending to be polite society. Commit suicide.
>>46367787
>>46367840
What I'm hearing is that you either have good GMs or shit-tier tactics.
>>46367855
Easy way to solve that: give Fighters more skills/level. God knows they could use it.
>>46367882
>Bully Dorkness instead
Its not bullying if she's enjoying it
>>46367908
>What I'm hearing is that you either have good GMs or shit-tier tactics.
yes?
but seriously we were level 2 and those things must of had ~23 AC from size, distance, and the whole area was difficult terrain. They could fly too. That was a terrible fucking fight.
>>46367876
those three don't seem that bad, but the middle one still has charm person and CHA damage.
>>46367880
Screw universal cooling, I'm moving to the outer planes.
>>46367945
That's actually a major plot point, people have been trying for centuries. The prime is cut off.
>>46367934
>we were level 2
>playing rusty dagger shanktown
Found your problem, and it isn't fey.
>>46367880
Get more portals to the plane of Fire, it's literally infinite so it's not running out of heat.
>>46367960
>Get more portals to the plane of Fire, it's literally infinite so it's not running out of heat.
Yes it would be if they could get a portal open. People are trying very hard to do so. The prime in the narrative is cut off. You can't learn gate/plane shift/planar ally/etc. Summon monster works but has been refluffed, it makes fake copies of creatures not brings actual creatures.
>>46367882
>mfw that artist isas109
>mfw he's doing amegumin rape to stockholm vanilla doujin
>>46367563
>>46367707
>all vanilla humanoids
Disgusting.
>>46368011
I'm still waiting for my KonoSuba Victim Girls
>>46367994
Jesus. At least tell me you're starting from 3rd or 4th, and not making them play shanktown in that heap.
>Group bailed on another session
>Get a message from other player saying he's dropping because the rest of the group is flakes
>Considering going back to old group as a player just because it's better than nothing
>Flakes upset because I told them this
>Finally realizing why there were problems with the flakes and the last group
Guess it's my fault, but I wanted to have some actual experience DMing. Maybe one day I can find a decent group.
>>46367733
Why's that special? Rapiers and estocs are already that with regular finesse.
>>46368092
Because I had forgotten estocs existed
Don't hide it from me, /pfg/
Tell me aboutyour most hated Paizo ideas
>>46367797
Please, last one's obviously an undercover yandere>>46367707
>Sibeth Fay is twenty second in line to the throne and third daughter of the Fay branch family
>twenty second in line
That's easily rectified.
>>46368151
Medium.
I have never been more disappointed with a traditional game, even after I already knew plenty about what Paizo was going to do and how they develop things.
Nothing could have prepared me for Medium.
>>46368151
Firearms
Why would they introduce something, but nerf it to the point of being almost unplayable?
>>46360277
>Maybe something tamer at earlier levels, that scales with HD?
Take a look at the Raptorans in 3.5's Races of the Wild for inspiration. They get a flight ability that scales by HD.
>>46360484
The Day of Gritted Teeth is hilarious.
Also, you can use Planar Ally/Planar Binding and the like to summon celestial/fiendish humans? Wow. That has so many questionable implications.
>>46360784
I see a cleric of Kurgess being like Flex Mentallo.
Is there any way to get Strength-based divine spellcasting?
>>46361188
>Question, Propose, Test
...So Brigh is the goddess of the scientific method, then?
>>46363063
>How would you RP a soulless clone created by technology after the true soul is out of the running?
TNG, Data, season 3.
>>46363197
Focused martials get attack bonuses high enough that by mid/high level they don't really care because they can hit 99% of everything several times in a full attack anyway.
>>46368151
Swashbucklers.
Either make them fighter or rogue archetypes, or fix them entirely. Their archetypes don't stack and their class features don't work in sync due to limited action economy.
>>46368151
Occult Class are absolutely shit and mostly unplayable garbage, except maybe for the occultist. And FUCK the Kineticist. Now we'll never get a good warlock class because of that piece of shit class taking the 'at-will blaster' spot.
>>46368062
Nope, the AP starts at level 1. Hope you like shanktown. Though it really isn't all that bad in the bosom of the Districts. Essentially it's a nation kept warm by government run control weather spells and spellcasters. Also the reason the kingdoms exist is an enormous volcanically active lake, the warm moist air supports some amounts of vegetation (including the enormous Kel woods).
You're low level in a slowly dying world, but it is dying in terms of centuries, not decades.
>>46368038
Sibeth technically isn't. The blood taint isn't a nice thing.
>>46368222
>Hope you like shanktown
You --------->
A cliff
Hi /pfg/.
My DM wants to convert to Pathfinder from D&D 5e. He wants to ban all the feats and allow us to raise stats instead, like in 5e.
Can you please help me explain why this is a terrible idea?
>>46368151
The willing dichotomy on what kinds of things martials are allowed to have and what kinds of things casters are allowed to have.
Like the rogue archetype gave up practically its entire class and they had the understanding to know that it's worth *maybe* 6th-level spells in exchange if you're feeling super-generous, but the doublethink they do still makes them believe their game is balanced.
What would you think of a Filcher Hidden Blade Unchained Rogue? What would you do to make such a character even better at stealing things?
>>46368241
Ask him if he really wants literally every combat round for a fighter to be "I attack and deal X damage", always, forever.
>>46368235
Being coddled and handed a competent character instead of dragging you way there is unsatisfying. The AP, unlike Paizo ones, is designed to require strategy and competency, especially in combat.
The enemies are written to attempt to lure PCs into ambushes, use advantageous terrain, make use of military tactics (if they are military which actually a fair few enemies are) and more. They have access to the same kind of resources PCs do (at least in general terms) and will make use of them.
>>46368254
Already did. He said that it won't be like this, because there are combat maneuvers for everyone.
>>46368271
So, not just random instant death but unforseeable random instant death.
>>46368271
>Being coddled and handed a competent character instead of dragging you way there is unsatisfying.
gr8 b8 m8
>>46368276
Combat maneuvers, unless you take a feat, provoke AoOs when used.
>>46368276
So is he doing to be giving all the Improved X feat effects to everyone for free?
Tell him to look at how, say, grapples, disarms, or trips work if you don't have the feats for them.
Then tell him to look at the CMB/CMD bonuses of monsters in the Bestiary books.
>>46368276
That no one can use well at all and against monsters that are designed to resist even them with investment.
>>46368222
Your description makes me think of winter at the zoo, when all the animals crowd around the elephants asshole every time it farts. Except permanently.
Been hitting dark souls for inspiration?
>>46368271
Wait, aren't you the one who killed the PCs in the first session, because your generic mooks were class-levelled initiatiors wearing explosive, chain-reacting collars?
Didn't you post the enemies here for feedback, complete with setting-specific languages, and then claim that your players didn't post in /pfg/? The players you recruited FROM /pfg/?
>>46368271
>Being coddled and handed a competent character instead of dragging you way there is unsatisfying.
Level 1-2 is quadriplegic.
>>46368271
Of course it takes a tripfag to be this retarded. Kill yourself.
>>46368281
At level one you're a fragile character, this is something people should be prepared for.
Here is an example encounter:
>House begins burning in town
>As PCs head in there is a relatively easy perception check to realize the doors on nearby houses have been ripped off their hinged and hastily shoved back into the frame
>House on fire is at the end of the street, broken door buildings flanking them.
Essentially there are people inside the broken door buildings waiting for villagers to tire themselves out bucket lining to put out the fire before engaging. The PCs can interrupt their plan relatively easily. This is made easier for survival purposes because these men are slavers, they're trying to take people alive if at all possible.
>>46368285
I actually do believe this. Though this isn't to say the adventure path is written to grind characters into a paste at low levels, it's written to allow for PCs to win if they engage smartly.
>>46368288
No, no improved X stuff. He meant that everyone can use them.
>>46368313
That's the point, though. They just plain aren't worth using, ever, if you don't have the feats for them.
>>46367501
Make her a gunslinger. Homebrew what you have to (you're the DM, you get to do that) but what I'll say is there's a human only sub-class called bucaneer for building pirates. And if it comes down to it, just skin it as a longsword.
>>46368312
So are you just trying to train PCs to be selfish bastards who refuse to engage with the plot?
>>46368296
Yeah I did do that, that was a huge goof on my end. None of the PCs ended up dying however, one did go unconscious.
>>46368298
>>46368311
I think 1-2 PCs dying during level 1 and 2 is ok. I know most of /pfg/ disagrees with me and really hates having any PC death without story relevant meaning and scripting. It's a matter of taste.
>>46368295
For the average person life isn't great, but it isn't that trash. It depends on where you live.
>>46368313
Everyone already can use them, they're just utter shit without associated feats.
I don't mind level 1-2 content because it pretty much occurs over the course of an afternoon.
It's difficult not to level rapidly.
That being said, I'd be pretty pissed if my GM decided that level 1-2 content should be filled with Dark Souls style insta-death ambushes and pitiless killers who will finish off unconscious PC's if heals are available due to 'strategy and competency'.
I don't know to what degree you plan on taking advantage of that sort of stuff, but I'm pretty sure the majority of people understand the concept that in Pathfinder you're SUPPOSED to be big goddamn heroes who defeat insurmountable odds and are looked upon with favor by deities and kings.
Tucker's Kobolds killing you with sticks and rocks at level one is fine maybe for Riddle of Steel, Delta Green, maybe even old Greyhawk or Dark Sun, but Pathfinder?
>>46368325
Your problem is that you expect PCs to go through 50/50 matchups (with significant optimization assumptions) over and over and come out on top every time in order to actually continue adventuring and advancing a story. You don't belong running games, run battle arenas instead.
>>46368241
Ask him what he plans to do when the group wizard puts what would be feats granting minor boosts all into Intelligence stat bonuses, and then one-shots every encounter because nothing can succeed against his spell DCs.
>>46368324
Having enemies use ambushes does not train PCs to be selfish bastards. Enemies should be capable of tactics.
>>46368341
>
That being said, I'd be pretty pissed if my GM decided that level 1-2 content should be filled with Dark Souls style insta-death ambushes and pitiless killers who will finish off unconscious PC's if heals are available due to 'strategy and competency'.
Except this is explicitly not what I described. There are signs an ambush may occur, the PCs can investigate to ruin the ambush, and the enemies are specifically trying to take people alive.
>Tucker's Kobolds killing you with sticks and rocks at level one is fine maybe for Riddle of Steel, Delta Green, maybe even old Greyhawk or Dark Sun, but Pathfinder?
If you're fighting soldiers they should attempt to engage smartly rather than simply charge into combat. This should be true of both sides. I really don't understand /pfg/ dislike of thinking through engagement rather than simply charging in.
>>46368350
>Your problem is that you expect PCs to go through 50/50 matchups (with significant optimization assumptions) over and over and come out on top every time in order to actually continue adventuring and advancing a story. You don't belong running games, run battle arenas instead.
Except I'm not? Where did you get this idea? The first encounter of the game is meant as a scare tactic to PCs to give an idea of what they're dealing with. It has written in "if the PCs get too far behind this happens, or this happens, etc." to move the first encounter on. Even if they are captured they're captured alive.
From there life as a PC is difficult, but not what you seem to believe as 50/50. It's well known Paizo adventure paths are laughably easy. I'm not making retard difficulty, I'm making something that can be a satisfying challenge.
I don't even care hugely for optimization, I care far more for prudent combat decisions on engagement/bottle necking/battle field awareness. I firmly believe an inferior force can triumph even in pathfinder if used correctly (not abused like tucker's kobolds, but engaged).
>>46368151
The Orang-Pendak.
It's a little thing, really. They're irrelevant to 99% of games, and conceptually not that interesting. But still, when I saw them, I had a brief moment of happiness. Despite being small, they had a STR bonus (being goddamn orangutans) and lived in the jungle, which meant I had an excuse for picking out one of the cool exotic cavalier mounts instead of generic horse. Plus, small sized means they can use medium mounts, AKA the ones that DMs will actually let you take into the goddamn dungeon.
And then Paizo gave them a racial trait that gives them -2 to EVERYTHING while riding an animal or a vehicle. Because fuck you for trying to make your cavalier playable in a dungeon crawl.
>>46368325
PC's dying at level 1-2 = pc permadeath.
It means you've tuned your encounters way, way too hard, and that isn't fun. You can challenge your players without butchering them and forcing rerolls.
Death shouldn't be a thing unless players are beyond fucking retarded (fighting when they should run, challenging things they know are way out of their league), or until they have a means of overcoming it.
Its not just /tg/ that disagrees with you, it's how the game itself is meant to be structured.
what are the best level 5 builds? 1pp only.
>>46368356
Uh huh. But you're still going to build mooks heavily specialized for their one encounter as if they knew from adolescence that it is what their entire lives are for, with their full daily resources just happening to be intact for it. It's inherently disadvantageous for the PCs and you need to account for that.
>>46367501
>>46368356
Tactics that the PCs have no significant way to predict or plan for aren't tactics, they're abuse.
Seriously, go read up on the psychology of video games and why good enemies SEEM smart instead of actually ACT smart.
>>46368296
>your generic mooks were class-levelled initiatiors wearing explosive, chain-reacting collars
What the hell?
>>46368356
>There are signs an ambush may occur
Right, yeah, I'm not debating that. I'm saying when the PC's see those signs, and they run in anyway because rushing headlong into a trap is the adventurer's way, and they die for having done it, there's a functional cognitive disconnect between the player's and the GM.
And just because your very first example included people wanting to take hostages doesn't mean they all will.
I'm cool with you doing whatever as long as your PC's are cool with it. If you've made it as clear as possible that this is gonna be a lethal campaign where planning and tactics will be an essential part of staying alive, and everyone has agree to that sentiment, I don't see a problem, really.
My concern is that people will sign up for a game of 'Pathfinder' and think things like, "Who cares if they're flanking us, we've got most of our spells left." or "I'll just trigger the trap by stepping on the plate and then you can heal me; it should be fine." and that will be the death of them because your game is going to run somewhat differently.
>>46368383
>Its not just /tg/ that disagrees with you, it's how the game itself is meant to be structured.
I find this really silly. Death is a consequence that should be on the table, even at high levels. A few PC rerolls should be existent. Entirely removing death as a possible consequence, or meaningful consequence, takes away from the game as a whole. This is true even for pathfinder and editions of D&D like 3.5 that has removed large amounts of death's meaning in the adventuring economy.
Death at low level, unrecoverable bodies at relatively higher levels.
It shouldn't be a grinder where each person rerolls over and over, but a single or two PCs dying on their journey should be possible occurrences. No death really cheapens the experience.
>>46368389
I'm not sure what you mean here? When have I done this? Are you talking about the mook I posted in /pfg/ who was a level 1 warlord?
>>46368356
Enemies capable of pulling 'lethal tactics' against the pc's are significantly above challenge rating (by about +3-5). A slight increase in cr (+1-2) should cause pc's to be 'bloodied' and make them use a few resources. An equal or lower cr fight should be a relative 'cakewalk'.
Your argument that 'enemies should use tactics' both significantly tilts CR, and it outs you as kind of an asshole.
>>46368393
Except they CAN predict it. Hints being left along the way, areas that look like ambush sites, and more. If a PC sees something wrong and simply ignores it he deserves consequences. One of the possible consequences in a bad enough situation could be character death.
>>46368416
>Right, yeah, I'm not debating that. I'm saying when the PC's see those signs, and they run in anyway because rushing headlong into a trap is the adventurer's way, and they die for having done it, there's a functional cognitive disconnect between the player's and the GM.
Honestly I know /pfg/ disagrees, but dear lord if PCs realize it's a trap and just run in anyway they deserve to die. Pathfinder doesn't automatically mean invulnerable super heroes.
I can see what you mean however. From the beginning the game is meant to be advertised as one that requires a bit more thought, and says so in the Player's Guide.
>>46368379
Here's the thing, dude
A first encounter "scare tactic"? Doesn't make the PCs go "Man, we're up against tough odds!", it makes them go "Holy shit, this DM is out to murder us."
I know one of your players, and she's basically sitting on "if the next session is anything like the first, I don't think I'm going to stay", and given that I've never known her to quit a game in her life, that should probably be a sign, dude.
>>46368449
>Hints being left along the way, areas that look like ambush sites, and more.
This is one of the general issues with leaving clues as a DM. More often than not, PCs will miss three quarters of said clues unless you are outright say as part of the narration "It seems like this is a spot where the enemy could easily ambush you." Same applies to puzzles.
>>46368439
See, not all enemies are capable of using tactics and are displayed as such.
Wolves? They're animals and will act like it.
Zombies? They're not gonna use tactics.
Humanoids? They're going to act like creatures of their int score.
I don't see the issue with this. CR is based of a conceptual number's game, and presumed disposition based of mental scores.
Honestly a group of hobgoblins not immediately running to stab the nearest target doesn't bump their CR by 5, that would be silly.
Here, my real question is for /pfg/, because honestly now I am confused. Does /pfg/ never use creatures that use any tactics? Is it always charge and go sort of style? Can others answer this because I would really like to know.
>>46365738
just use it and don't make it the central focus of your character. It's not worse then using any other weapon so long as it isn't the sole defining characteristic of your character.
How often do you see someone who makes a character who's completely focused on his finely forged longsword? and if you did see it how often was it a compelling character?
