Last thread: >>46040196
http://pastebin.com/gsYUFPGD
Tell us about your best session ever!
Also: your favourite faction / clan / whatever (from WoD or CoD)?
>>46057646
>inb4 fagness
>>46057682
>induring fagness
>>46056221
>Does this sound interesting or shit?
Sounds good, desu fampai.
Tell me more: will the rumors be true or there's no Methuselah?
If there will be: who's (s)he? Anyone from the metaplot?
And what about this tactical squad?
How many members / players will it have?
Why would someone play something that is not Mage? Don't they realize the other splats will never even get one one fraction of the power a mage wields?
>>46057766
We're playing RPGs, all of us are betas by nature
>>46057766
Does it really matter what aesthetic you're using to roll buckets of dice?
>>46057766
It's called roleplay, not powerplay. You filthy peasant.
Some just want to experience playing the role of a nonMage loser.
>>46057766
Not everyone is so impotent in their real lives they can only enjoy escaping as something more powerful than themselves.
>>46057766
While I'm a huge Mage fan (MtA), mages are the most "human" of all the supernatural creatures in the World of Darkness, thus they're the weakest.
A werewolf or a vamp could literally rip apart a mage.
And they also have "magical" skills / abilities, not just the superior physical power.
>The Gentleman Gamer may have just confirmed we'll see Sekhem sorcerers in the Dark Eras Companion
it's a good day to be atamajakki
>>46057785
>>46057841
>>46057850
>>46057866
Bet you don't play D&D Wizards either
>>46057766
>Why would someone play something that is not Mage?
Because Vampire is the most popular game of both WoD and CoD?
>>46057894
Druids/Clerics are far more overpowered. Though it depends on the edition.
>>46057766
>"Mages are the most powerful"
>can't live too much longer than a human lifetime
>if you do achieve immortality, it's either fragile or cruel enough to have the Pentacle try to crush you
Shit taste.
>>46057887
>it's a good day to be atamajakki
except you're still atamajakki
>>46057785
>>46057806
>>46057841
>>46057850
>>46057866
>>46057904
>>46057923
>Translation: I enjoy being a cuck
Alrighty then
>>46057923
>Mages can't be immortal with ease
This is like the "mana is hard to come by so their powers being free is balanced" bull isn't it
>>46057894
>>46057943
Dude, I'm this >>46057866 and I just said that MtA is my favourite game!
>>46057952
>if it involves hard work, it's too much work, give me everything now
the clarion call of the millennials
>>46057943
I'm really impressed how many answers you got on that low quality bait. Kudos to you, Anon.
Guess everyone here is a bit bored right now waiting on new releases.
>>46057971
>>46057866
>mages are the most "human" of all the supernatural creatures in the World of Darkness, thus they're the weakest.
Being a sarcastic arsehole does not make your post any less suck-offy of mage
>>46057952
Any immortality spell can be dispelled, immediately killing you.
>>46058002
Chill buddy, everything's ok.
>>46058028
Spell to stop you aging. If it gets dispelled, worst thing that happens is you start aging again. and there are any number of ways to fix being old, not least a numen designed specifically for that purpose
>>46058028
>the clarion call of the millennials
Unless you get them as an attainment. Also, no reason the dispell should kill you, would just make you age again.
>>46058029
>mages are the weakest because they have no inherent weaknesses like sunlight, wasteland or essence bleed
riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight
>>46058066
whoops, got the wrong quote in there for some reason
DARK ERAS IS AT PARADOX FOR APPROVAL AND WILL THEN GO TO BACKERS
>>46057887
>Sekhem sorcery
Fucking finally! I've been waiting four goddamn years for this!
Is this some sort of weird false-flag operation to make people hate Mage and Mage players?
I've never met somebody who actually plays Mage who acts like this.
>>46058119
people already hate mage and mage players
they're just willing to give 2e another chance
>>46058108
Sekhem sorcerers.
>>46058119
Mage players are insufferable because their pet splat demolishes everything else then they act butthurt when you suggest they;re a powergaming fantasy fuckwit who might as well play D&D
>>46058119
While the average Mage player isn't as retarded as the posters in these threads, the official forums and elsewhere are full of Mage fans who try to explain away the entire rest of the setting as being shittier facets of Mage.
I've seen people claim Father Wolf was the familiar of an archmage, for fuck's sake.
>>46058181
Yeah, that's exactly the kind of Mage fan I have never witnessed outside fans of other splats doing sarcastic impressions.
Where is that coming from?
>>46058181
Most actual Mage players I know are the ones pointing out how Mages can't actually do most of the OP bullshit the Magewankers like to go on about.
Most Magewankers have never actually played Mage and just like to fantasize about it and jerk off.
http://theonyxpath.com/now-available-phone-skins-and-mugs-whaaaat/
>>46058119
1, It's just a meme
2, Powergamers really like to play Mages
3, Mages lack the "darkness" that defines WoD and CoD.
Thus they don't fit into the setting.
It's like the Tau from Warhammer 40k.
That's all.
But as I said: it's just a meme.
>>46058211
>Where is that coming from?
It's more the persecution complex than anything. Mages get the best powers, the cheapest powers, the least disadvantages, the most options, their game universe trumps everything else, they're the objective correct choice of you get to pick what you are in the WoD/CofD, they're broken as fuck in a game with inter-operability behind the design. and yet they cry that they're not actually that broken because the ST can just Fiat them if they want, like that is a balancing factor.
>>46058270
Best explanation I've ever heard.
>>46058242
>No CofD stuff
Well, dang.
>>46058248
But Mages have more darkness in many ways.
>Your own personal hubris can and likely will lead to your ruin and the ruin of those around you
>You know that the world around you is a depressing Lie
>You know that there IS a patriarchy, a The Man, a shadowy evil that keeps its foot on the world's face.
>In fact, there are eleven of them, and they have minions and worshipers.
>There are people and things that want to kill you for existing
>You have phenomenal cosmic power and there's no instruction manual
>The political parties are filled with religious nutjobs (who might be right)
>Abandoning them means being a sheep with no shepherd in a field of wolves
>Getting "what I want" means tempting fate with danger
>Your mistakes and missteps cause harm to those around you and allow literal darkness and evil to enter the world
>The darkness trapped in the world will often seek you out
>Your antagonists are obsessive researchers, broken inquisitors, soul eaters, patrons of dark Gods, demons, cosmic nihilists, different demons, cosmic horrors, other kinds of demons, other supernaturals, and weird shit that can't be comprehended
Mage is not "like the Tau". It amazes me that people still think it "doesn't fit". How much darker can you get than The Abyss? The Seers? The Hellmenth? The Atakai? The Banishers? The Scelesti? What from any other WoD game is as horrifying as knowing that when--not if--you fuck up you're going to cause havoc to the world around you?
>>46058812
>"So if your ST is a dick, you're the worst gameline"
>>46058270
>It's more the persecution complex than anything.
What? I've never seen Mage fans crying persecution.
>Mages get the best powers
Correct
>the cheapest powers
Incorrect
>the least disadvantages
Incorrect, but only because shit like Geist - where you have literally NO disadvantages - exists
>the most options
Correct
>their game universe trumps everything else
Incorrect
>they're the objective correct choice of you get to pick what you are in the WoD/CofD
I guess? Are there people who do this?
>they're broken as fuck in a game with inter-operability behind the design
Just because they all use the same mechanics doesn't mean you're supposed to have a Vampire, a Werewolf, a Mage, and a Sin-Eater all in the same PC group. Even taking aside the different power levels, all of these games have very different themes, and you're not going to be able to do all of them justice in the same chronicle.
>they cry that they're not actually that broken because the ST can just Fiat them if they want, like that is a balancing factor.
It's more that a lot of the OP bullshit people like to spout literally doesn't work according to the rules. This doesn't mean Mages aren't insanely powerful, mind you, but shit like Colette's "starting Mage brainwashes every human on Earth using ritual casting" doesn't actually work.
>>46058839
More like
>If your ST is running the game correctly, it's just like the rest
>>46058812
>The Hellmenth
Jesus Fuck, don't remind me.
Does any other splat have a "if you're a naieve investigator who presses buttons without thinking, you can literally doom the entire planet" enemy?
>>46058270
>>46058461
But this is wrong. Mages do get "the cheapest" powers and it's arguable that they get "the best", but both of those are only because Mages get so much flexibility. Meanwhile demons get tons of power right from the outset, no XP needed, and so do Werewolves.
Mage's cosmology does not and never has trumped everything else (although as a fan of cosmological maps, I wish that were true). Even where that IS true, it's more to do with Mage being a splat meant for exploration, so they have larger maps. At best, Mage says "the world is a LIIIIIIEEE!" but that doesn't really mean anything. That doesn't make the rest of the WoD "wrong". That'd be like saying The Hisil invalidates Vampire. Or the Hedge invalidates Werewolf.
Mage is not the objective correct choice of you get to pick what you are (I can't even parse that sentence and I know it's wrong).
Mage 1e was broken, it's true, though never as broken as people say, and they don't mean "broken" in the right way. And it's not that Mages are "not actually that broken because the ST can just Fiat them if they want", it's more that Mages aren't as broken as people think and most STs (and complainers) just ignore the methods of balance.
>>46058119
>I've never met somebody who actually plays Mage who acts like this.
That's because they don't. In fact, the reason you have Mage fans like me usually arguing that Mages *aren't* unstoppable Gods from Day One is because we actually know the game and know that a Mage is going to get Donkey Punched by a Nosferatu with Obfuscate, or torn apart by a Werewolf.
>>46058839
If you don't like the game's baggage, don't play the game. If you can't handle the need to drink blood and avoid the sun, why would you play Vampire?
Don't tell me that Mage isn't a horror game and then ignore that Mage has a lot of Horror. that's not "if your ST is a dick", that's all part of the setting. Hell, a lot of it is baked into the mechanics, more so in 2e.
>>46058891
Your ST can throw all the home-mad enemies they want at you, but in the end that's still just fiat. You lose because the ST has unlimited resources, and that's all Mage players have to defend teir pet gameline.
Mechanically Mages are broken six ways from Sunday, and
>>46058954
>That image
SWEET HONKING ARSE BANDITS!
>>46058812
>You know that the world around you is a depressing Lie
>You know that there IS a patriarchy, a The Man, a shadowy evil that keeps its foot on the world's face.
>In fact, there are eleven of them, and they have minions and worshipers.
Does not knowing about it make it any less true for the other splats? "Mages are the only ones who get to know these horrible truths" isn't much of a point AGAINST Mage favoritism
>There are people and things that want to kill you for existing
True for every other splat except maybe Sin-Eaters
>The political parties are filled with religious nutjobs (who might be right)
True for most other splats
>Abandoning them means being a sheep with no shepherd in a field of wolves
Also true for most other splats - try succeeding as a Ghost Wolf or an Unaligned Vampire.
>>46059003
>home-mad enemies
These things they are talking about are actually part of the lore you absolute fool.
>>46059003
>home-made enemies
Obviously you haven't read the books, because all of those are canon.
Also you're a fucking chump, and you buy into the GM v.s. Player dynamic so really there's no point in discussing this with you.
I bet you argue with other people about whose character would win in a fight.
>>46059016
>True for every other splat except maybe Sin-Eaters
What are the Cthonians?
>>46058990
>Mage is not the objective correct choice of you get to pick what you are (I can't even parse that sentence and I know it's wrong).
He meant "if you have to choose one of the major supernatural splats, which one is the best/least worst option". Mage is probably up there, but I'm pretty sure the actual best answer is Sin-Eater. You have no supernatural weaknesses, aren't automatically alienated from all your old friends and loved ones, no automatic antagonists, and most of the supernatural shit you have to deal with is either laughably underpowered compared to you or vanishingly rare.
>>46059069
>What are the Cthonians?
Something that's only mentioned in a Mage supplement?
>>46059069
>What are the Cthonians?
Aren't they trapped in the deepest reaches of the Underworld?
You don't ever have to go anywhere near those, and you usually don't even have a particularly good reason to.
>>46059009
You know what's even creepier?
Read the lore, they communicate their dark will through Ghosts who use Numina to replicable Numbers Stations.
Which are creepy as hell
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EdnoAJ7KoFE
>>46059141
Hmmm, maybe the Kerberoi would be a better fit then? Sin-Eater is a tricky splat to make antagonists for, but thems the brakes.
>>46058812
>But Mages have more darkness in many ways.
They don't.
>>Your own personal hubris can and likely will lead to your ruin and the ruin of those around you
Same is said about every splat and mortals
>>You know that the world around you is a depressing Lie
Same is said about every splat and mortals
>>You know that there IS a patriarchy, a The Man, a shadowy evil that keeps its foot on the world's face.
Feminists already believe this
>>In fact, there are eleven of them, and they have minions and worshipers.
Every splat has antagonists
>>There are people and things that want to kill you for existing
Every splat and mortals has this
>>You have phenomenal cosmic power and there's no instruction manual
Every splat has power without an instruction manual
>>The political parties are filled with religious nutjobs (who might be right)
Some of the other splats do this, so does mortal
>>Abandoning them means being a sheep with no shepherd in a field of wolves
Same with other splats, and mortal
>>Getting "what I want" means tempting fate with danger
Same with everything
>>Your mistakes and missteps cause harm to those around you and allow literal darkness and evil to enter the world
Abyss is not darkness and evil, but most splats have something like this
>>The darkness trapped in the world will often seek you out
Everything in the World of Darkness deals with this
>>Your antagonists are obsessive researchers, broken inquisitors, soul eaters, patrons of dark Gods, demons, cosmic nihilists, different demons, cosmic horrors, other kinds of demons, other supernaturals, and weird shit that can't be comprehended
Every splat deals with most of these
>>46058954
The Hellmenth are part of the setting, they're something every splat deals with
>>46059181
I just looked at the thumbnail for the video you posted.
I am not touching that with a bargepole.
>>46059205
>Hmmm, maybe the Kerberoi would be a better fit then? Sin-Eater is a tricky splat to make antagonists for, but thems the brakes.
Also stuck in whatever layer of the Underworld they're policing.
>>46059260
Bugger.
>>46059244
it's just a numbers station, random numbers, sometimes sentence fragments, there's nothing creepy about it, most people just don't have the whole picture
it's like seeing a foot on the floor and freaking out about there just being a foot lying there because you didn't see the person it's attached to
>>46059234
Oh yeah, because all other splats can activate the inter-dimensional pillars to summon the Hellmenth which only Mages can interact with.
You schmuck.
>>46058163
Well I mean that by having Sekhem Sorcerers, there's going to be a non-Mummy Sekhem Sorcery system to go along with it, even if it's just a tiny sub-ruleset. You're right though, Sekhem Sorcerers is the real thing to celebrate. I hope it's a PC-friendly template.
>>46059395
Hmmm, I think it might be cool to see Werewolf Sekhem Sorcery.
>>46059305
>Oh yeah, because all other splats can activate the inter-dimensional pillars to summon the Hellmenth which only Mages can interact with.
No, but all the other splats can deal with the ghost servants of the Hellmenth and find the listen to the numbers stations and the spires they lead to.
>>46058954
I honestly believe Summoners is the best book.
>>46059234
That's like saying Idagim are something every splat deals with. Or Strix. Or Abmortals. Or Huntsmen. Or Heroes. Or... well, I guess technically Angels are treated like Spirits/Ghosts. But most splats aren't going to deal with the freaky shit from Wicked Dead.
>>46059003
Uh... The Seers, Acamoth, Banishers, Scelesti, all that other stuff I mentioned? That's not "home-mad"[sic]. That's what Mage is all about. Nothing I said was made up. It's all in the Mage book. You'd know that if you paid even the slightest amount of attention.
>>46059016
Knowing is the horror, so yes, it's not true for the rest of the splats. To paraphrase and greentext Hitchcock, two scenarios:
>A group of people sit around a table talking, and then a bomb goes off without warning
>You're shown a ticking bomb and a bunch of people sit down at the table and start talking
The suspense the audience gets comes from the knowledge.
Also, I feel like you're missing the point. Just because something is true for other splats doesn't make it less horror when it involves Mages.
>>46059106
>>46059069
>>46059205
Cthonians are vaguely mentioned in Geist's first chapter, though that feels like it was a mistake. Either way, there's quite a few antagonists for Geist people forget about as well:
>Ghosts (now stronger!)
>Unbound Geister
>Kerberoi
>Abmortals
>Sacrosanct
Along with Hunter tier things like mortal occultists.
>>46059091
Sin-eaters do have a weakness. It's just that narratively the weakness is "the constant nagging of the dead" and the mechanic weakness is "make an easy roll to shut out the nagging of the dead".
>>46059244
Ever seen Lost? It's that.
>>46059485
>That's like saying Idagim are something every splat deals with.
Every splat should! They are awesome antagonists.
>>46059485
>That's like saying Idagim are something every splat deals with. Or Strix. Or Abmortals. Or Huntsmen. Or Heroes. Or... well, I guess technically Angels are treated like Spirits/Ghosts. But most splats aren't going to deal with the freaky shit from Wicked Dead.
Huntsmen and Strix target changelings and Vampires, just like Heroes target Beasts. Abmortals and idigam and the numbers stations and operators are just freaky occurences in the world of darkness.
>>46059485
>I honestly believe Summoners is the best book.
I agree, it's fantastic. So much good stuff.
I'm ecstatic the rules for summoning Supernal entities from it are going to be in the core book now, so my GM won't be able to shoot down my attempts to summon Supernal entities to answer certain questions by stating "oh, that's not in the core book is it Anon?"
>>46059537
Yes I like them, but is there any way to defeat one of those things though?
>>46059213
>They don't
Yes they do, you just don't want to admit it.
Mortals and other splats don't literally summon monsters by accident. Other splats don't see behind the curtain to learn that reality is a Platonic allegory. At best they get "vampires/werewolves/faeries are real!"
"Every splat has antagonists" DOESN'T INVALIDATE THAT MAGE HAS THEM. Christ Almighty, you can't say "oh, other splats have those things, so Mage isn't horror".
>Abyss is not darkness and evil, but most splats have something like this
No other splat has anything remotely like Paradox, save for Demons.
Every splat does not have the horrifying enemies that Mages do. They don't operate on the same fucking scale--that's the crux of your argument in the first place! You think Mage isn't horror because Mages are so powerful!
>>46059537
I'll allow it.
>>46059592
>"Every splat has antagonists" DOESN'T INVALIDATE THAT MAGE HAS THEM. Christ Almighty, you can't say "oh, other splats have those things, so Mage isn't horror".
You claimed Mage had "more darkness"
pointing out it has the same antagonists as everyone else doesn't invalidate mage having them, but it points out that Mage does not have any "more" darkness than any other game
>>46059592
>No other splat has anything remotely like Paradox, save for Demons.
Your mistakes and missteps let literal darkness/evil enter the world
which is how vampires brought in the strix and belaals brood, werewolves the bale hounds and the fall of their entire home world, prometheans beget pandorans and broken prometheans, changelings huntsmen
>Every splat does not have the horrifying enemies that Mages do. They don't operate on the same fucking scale--that's the crux of your argument in the first place! You think Mage isn't horror because Mages are so powerful!
You're mistaken. I was pointing out the flaw in your list of arguments about why mage is "darker" than everyone else, the issue you're having a hissy fit over is with some other anon.
But every splat does have the horrifying enemies that mages do
>>46059573
Honestly it scares the poop out of me, and that's why I love it. I already couldn't think about Numbers Stations without freaking out, but once you get passed the first chapter that whole book is fucking creepypasta.
The Atakai also give me nightmares.
>>46058812
I was talking about MtA, tho.
>>46059485
>Sin-eaters do have a weakness. It's just that narratively the weakness is "the constant nagging of the dead" and the mechanic weakness is "make an easy roll to shut out the nagging of the dead".
That's like saying that Mages have a legit weakness because they have Peripheral Mage Sight they can't turn off.
Sure, that's true, but they also have multiple other weaknesses, and the same goes for every other splat.
>>46059438
If there was anyone besides Mummies who could handle the sheer raw power of life energy that is Sekhem, it'd probably be Werewolves, yeah.
>>46059582
Find it's bane. Which may be petrified wood from a single island in the Pacific so good fucking luck. Entire packs of werewolves can get owned by an idigam, sometimes even if the idigam forgot to bring its horde of almost-as-robust slave creatures with it. They're incredible motherfuckers and are endgame threats for pretty much every splat.
A hunter cell dealing with a single idigam could be the basis of an entire campaign.
>>46059774
If you're talking about oWoD, the level of crushing horror and cynicism varies strongly depending on the gameline. Vampire and Wraith have it (although Wraith is like Promethean in that its premise is "everything sucks, but you have a canonical Good End you can actually reach). Werewolf has the Apocalypse coming, but the final battle is potentially winnable. Mage is outright optimistic, despite the cynical world they live in - the conflict there is literally "two groups with incompatible ideas on how to help the world are at each other's throats".
>>46059774
The Ascension?
Oh. No one cares about that, it's a dumb game.
>>46059788
Peripheral Mage Sight doesn't beg you to do shit.
That was mostly sarcastic mockery of Geist 1e being so bad at themes.
>>46059919
>The Ascension?
>Oh. No one cares about that, it's a dumb game.
That is your personal opinion, and I respect it.
However, this is a /cofd/&/wodg/ Chronicles of Darkness and World of Darkness General thread, so we can discuss both settings.
>>46059994
Well yeah, but you seemed to throw that right into the middle of talk about Awakening.
>>46059994
Sorry, but no.
Magefags only want to talk about Awakening, it's all that matters. Make your own thread.
>>46060088
He was talking about it and you overreacted in defense of Awakening.
>>46057646
High Fantasy using the Chronicles of Darkness / Storyteller System as a basis.
Y/N/M?
Aside from skills, what changes would have to be made to accommodate this change in setting?
I'd like to think majority of Mages aren't assholes. Maybe benign, I amoral and indifferent but not assholes.
>>46060109
>>46060134
>>46060177
But everyone was talking about Awakening, and then someone asked >>46058119
>I've never met somebody who actually plays Mage who acts like this.
And you got replies like >>46058248 and >>46058270.
It was a question about Awakening. People were even talking about the Pentacle and the difficulty of achieving immortality, and this is a continuation of the last thread, where people were bitching that Mages are either too moral and always right, *or* that the game forces you to be a jackass who's always a jerk to people.
Why would I assume he was talking about Mage?
Hell, nevermind that he says "MtA".
Awakening and Ascension BOTH start with A.
>>46060302
You were just continuing an argument from another thread because you like to argue.
>Awakening and Ascension BOTH start with A.
And Awakening is MtAw.
>>46060302
Get over it.
>>46060242
I'd say wait till StoryPath arrives, especially for High Fantasy. There'll probably be enough to knick from Scion 2e to use as a base.
>>46060242
YYYY
I keep trying to do it, but I'm too depressed and lazy to consistently work on something.
Need a witty filename for this pic, any suggestions/
>>46060374
Ascension is MtAs or MtAsc (depending on if you want second letter or first syllable/stop before first vowel)
Awakening is MtAw.
>>46060604
Herd: * (Shared)
Hey is there an oblation where having sex with the hubby gets me some mana?
>>46060671
The Whipping Boys, if you work some BDSM into it?
Alternately you could always make a Legacy focused around the stability and positive environment produced by a happy marriage and domestic life, or something. Marital boning would absolutely be a valid oblation for that.
>>46060242
I've been working with the Mirrors books and my own brew to try to make it work, and Syu fat I have a few changes and mechanics to present.
>Socialize > Etiquette, Drive > Ride, Firearms > Archery, Academics > Folklore, Computer > Warfare, Occult > Religion, Science > Alchemy
> Mortal Player Characters have a Power Stat called "Fate". Where Integrity is soul and mental health, Fate is its raw power. The average human has 0 Fate.
> Alchemy works like a Changeling Contract, but the action to create the Elixir, potion or what have you is extended and the catch is typically an ingredient. Dramatic failures cause either the brew to explode violently, work TOO well, or work counter to the intention of the brew.
> Divine magic is more straightforward, except that it fucks with really more directly and their has much more immediate consequences. They always get an exceptional success in a holy place of their deity out when attacking a heretic or enemy of the faith.
>>46060901
Not that anon, but wouldholding handsbe a good oblation for this legacy?
>>46061010
You'd have to do it for an entire hour.
>>46060980
An Elixir working TOO well would for example be transforming slowly and painfully into a Giant Spider I've the course of the coming days after drinking a botched spider climb potion.
The cure for this isn't set in stone, but the most immediate solution is to brew something that delays the process until you can research a cure.
>>46061046
I don't know if you've ever been in a long-distance relationship, but the last time I was with my gf, we were in actual physical contact for 20 hours straight, a lot of which included hand-holding (among other things).
>>46061134
>I don't know if you've ever been in a long-distance relationship, but the last time I was with my gf, we were in actual physical contact for 20 hours straight, a lot of which included hand-holding (among other things).
I've been there, actually, I'm just explaining things from a practical standpoint.
If your Mage is in an LDR where they see each other rarely enough to do stuff like this they're not going to have much access to these oblations.
>>46058270
Well, in their defense, that's not pretty hard to do with the "Owls did everything, vampires do not transcend history, but just merely get caught in loops" attitude of Requiem.
> inb4 don't make muh Requiems like duh Masquerades
> check em
>>46061237
>If your Mage is in an LDR where they see each other rarely enough to do stuff like this they're not going to have much access to these oblations.
If your Mage is in an LDR like this they need to make friends with a trustworthy Mastigos with at least 3 dots in Space. Metaphysically-speaking, they'll be closer to their girlfriend than they are to their next door neighbour.
>>46061296
History is for humans only. Once someone's renounced their humanity for anything in exchange in the CofD, they get locked in a cosmic box with few exits, because that's what they deserve.
>>46061419
"trustworthy Mastigos"
>>46057766
This might be the most successful bait I have seen.
Also, got double dubs.
Congratulations.
>>46061523
Not every Mastigos is a manipulative dickhead.
>>46061858
>Not every Mastigos is a manipulative dickhead
This promotional message is brought to you by Local 359, your one stop shop for all of your Mind & Space needs.....or else....
>>46060901
>>46060671
I made a Magical Girl Legacy where they had to "make love to" their "prince". Basically, the Legacy gave you a designated boyfriend, and fucking them is an Oblation. They're one of those "grab you young, get you hooked before you can get out of it" Legacies. They're just ostensibly good guys because Arrow Shit™.
>>46061523
>>46061890
Mastigos have been to Hell. They understand that doing bad things is bad.
As someone put it: The Path that gets Mind is the Path least likely to abuse Mind.
>>46062035
>As someone put it: The Path that gets Mind is the Path least likely to abuse Mind.
"Someone" being codeword for anyone who got in the way of a Mastigos in the last 50 years
>>46061858
"Not All Mastigos"
So how would you make an actually decent equivalent of Beast: The Primordial?
I was thinking maybe something like, Beast: The Hunger, something along the lines of Leviathan where you've inherited naturally evil powers, be it the need to feed on others fear, or being tainted with the power of great beasts, Wendigo, so on and needing to consume flesh, the theme would be something like 'Humanity within darkness' the conflict between your actual human nature and the part of you that revels int he darkness, the evil powers you have which can't really be used for anything good (How do you use the ability to cause cannibalistic psychosis in others, or conjure up massive, decimating snow storms, into something good, ect) but that require feeding and come with dangers.
Having to come to terms with the fact that you're no longer human and the best thing you could do for everyone else really is off yourself.
It'd be such an interesting theme compared to 'gotta be 2spooky'
>>46062101
You do realize one of the paramount Truths of Path Mastigos is that autonomy and self-determinism are sacrosanct, right? Mastigos who do mind control are literally doing "being a Mastigos" wrong.
>>46062281
And yet there's no mechanical penalty, so all that amounts to is a line of optional fluff
>>46062281
Yeah but to be fair they're also about how nothing is deserved and everything has to be earned so if they can't resist you do they really deserve autonomy?
>>46062301
So? You're acting like they're all doing that.
>>46062383
Nobody achieves Mind 4 without intent to use it. Or Mind 2. Or Mind 3.
Basically the only practices that aren't mind control are Knowing and Unveiling ("Hey, I'm not as bad as those mind-controllers, I just read your every thought!"), Fraying and Perfecting, Making and Unmaking.
>>46058846
>shit like Colette's "starting Mage brainwashes every human on Earth using ritual casting" doesn't actually work.
Why DOESN'T it work with like Potency 60+?
>>46062676
Casting, say, Multitasking or Augment the Mind or Telepathy on someone else isn't mind control.
>>46062176
Limiting things to evil is pretty, well, limiting.
>>46062724
Because it's wrong. I'd need to remember how he did it to know why, though.
>>46062676
It's all about knowing when to do it and when not to. I know at least one Mastigos player who uses Mind control on himself. You can also do most of those things without abusing someone's autonomy and robbing them completely of agency. Helping someone overcome mental illness or traumas isn't evil.
>>46062176
I have no idea, but I do know that maybe being a monster in the physical world more than "sometimes" would be a nice improvement.
>>46062823
>I know at least one Mastigos player who uses Mind control on himself. You can also do most of those things without abusing someone's autonomy and robbing them completely of agency. Helping someone overcome mental illness or traumas isn't evil.
Yup. As long as you're not robbing them of the ability to make their own choices, you're kosher by Pandemonium.
There's a lot you can do without crossing that line.
>>46062729
>Multitasking or Augment the Mind
I mentioned Perfecting, yes.
>or Telepathy
Arguable. But it's true that Patterning isn't, necessarily, mind control, assuming you draw some legal distinction between mind control and mind alteration. (Which I imagine many mages do, as part of self-justifying.)
Is mind controlling ghosts and spirits morally objectionable?
>>46062823
>Helping someone overcome mental illness or traumas isn't evil.
Note that the "helping" part is important - another truth of Pandemonium is that you need to be the one who fixes your problems and improves yourself. Other people can help you, but you need to be the one to do it.
Solving other people's problems FOR them is a no-no for Mastigos, because it robs them of personal growth.
>>46062823
>Helping someone overcome mental illness or traumas isn't evil.
I didn't say it was evil, I said it was mind control. Which it is, and pretending otherwise is exactly the kind of hubris that mages are supposed to do.
"It's fine when I do it; I have the moral clarity to know WHEN to control minds. It's other people who don't."
>>46062862
Ghosts would probably get you more pushback than spirits.
Not because they're anatomically or intellectually any different, but because ghosts are very human-looking things, with very human drives (their Anchors) while spirits can be viewed as more "fancy animals" who just want to nom on their respective metaphysical diets.
So: I guess it depends on whether you consider ghosts or spirits people; there's certainly plentiful arguments in either direction.
>>46062176
i would personally have the Primordial Dream be an oppressive sort of supernatural presence that demands that THE BEASTS find a human host to dwell within, and then seeks out appropriate human beings as heroes to fight the beasts. It's an evil destiny-making machine and the people who become beasts are just as condemned as the heroes who are mystically compelled to fight them. The tragedy & the roleplay comes from whether you embrace or fight the Dream's pull on you and what you're doomed to do. Do you become a dragon or try to keep on keeping on as a CPA?
>>46062862
In 1e, Wisdom didn't consider ghosts, spirits, or even things like Vampires people, so you couldn't commit Wisdom sins against them except where specifically stated (like forcibly binding a spirit where it doesn't belong).
In 2e? No idea.
>>46062879
>I didn't say it was evil, I said it was mind control.
How so?
How does temporarily dampening the effects of someone's clinical depression rob them of their ability to make choices?
Hell, if anything, blocking their depression would IMPROVE their ability to make decisions for their own betterment.
>>46062848
well, psychically raping people is still kosher by Pandemonium
>>46063004
it robs them of the ability to deal with their mental issues on their own
in addition, the "improvement" you offer is going to wear off once your spell does
>>46063004
Because someone's inhibitions and depressions (malformed as they might be) are part of their personality too.
It's not a GOOD or HEALTHY part of their personality, but you are objectively grabbing a piece of their mind, pinching it off, and tossing it in the trash (temporarily, as the case may be).
The only difference is whether or not the mage, theoretically, has the moral clarity to have pinched off the right part; but he's still performing mental control/alterations, and him pretending otherwise is a bad start.
"I maximize choices" is not actually contradictory with "I perform mind control."
>>46063061
You can perform mind control. You're just unlikely to abuse it when you've been to Pandaemonium and felt your own mind tearing you apart across infinite space.
>>46063137
>You're just unlikely to abuse it when you've been to Pandaemonium and felt your own mind tearing you apart across infinite space.
Citation needed.
>>46063251
The book.
>>46063061
I feel like you have a much broader definition for what constitutes "mind control" than most people.
Most people mean "overriding people's free will". Making decisions for them, that kind of thing.
Mental alterations are not the same thing.
>>46063326
As Beast defenders are so quick to remind us, the book is predominantly from the perspective of the supernatural.
Funny that they'd assure us they would never abuse their power.
>>46063326
Is this some homebrew fanbook someone made? Because it goes against everything in every other book.
Even the Mastigos oblation involves mindfucking people for your own gain.
>Finally, the oblations of dominance require that the mage exert her will on another person. Unlike the other Mastigos oblations, the victim here cannot be complicit in the mage’s endeavor, and so most Mastigos use Sleepers for such rites and then alter or erase their memories later. As such, the mage must be careful, lest in the course of the oblation she commit an act of hubris and lose Wisdom.
>>46063368
Having a materialist view of consciousness, I see no difference.
If someone alters my brain such that I no longer like tomatoes, that's no different at all from just ordering me to never eat tomatoes, or mind-controlling me to stop liking tomatoes.
The only thing that makes "I obeyyyy" mind control any different is degree, not category.
Here's another oblation
Taming: This oblation doesn’t necessarily begin outside the Hallow, because the oblation involves the Mastigos breaking the subject’s will rather than convincing or forcing her to do something. Over the course of the hour, the mage engages in psychological or even physical torture, stripping the subject of her will and resistance, until she will do anything that Mastigos desires. Whatever tactics the Mastigos uses are usually accompanied with covert Mind spells, since this kind of domination is diffi cult to enact quickly. In any case, any Willpower the subject spends is added to the amount of Mana the mage receives at the end of the hour. Of course, this oblation always requires a roll to avoid degeneration (two dice).
Their views of sleepers
Sleepers
The Mastigos’ prevailing attitude toward Sleepers is that they are a resource. Until they Awaken, they are blind, easily manipulated and generally expendable, and therefore can be used as necessary. This attitude varies greatly in degree. Most Mastigos don’t send Sleepers to their deaths or into situations that their fragile minds can’t handle, but are quite willing to alter their memories or dreams as necessary. Some Mastigos, though, are quite happy to send Sleepers through portals into unknown territories just to “test the waters,” or offer up their bodies or souls as bargaining chips when dealing with powerful entities from beyond the Fallen World. Such callous action can cost the mage Wisdom, of course, but the Mastigos don’t always see this problem until it is too late.
>>46057990
Gen-Xers are any different? Let's remember they're the generation that embraced the term 'slacker'.
>>46057990
>>46063521
Let's not mention the Baby Boomers, also known as the worst generation ever.
>>46058846
>Just because they all use the same mechanics doesn't mean you're supposed to have a Vampire, a Werewolf, a Mage, and a Sin-Eater all in the same PC group. Even taking aside the different power levels, all of these games have very different themes, and you're not going to be able to do all of them justice in the same chronicle.
If crossover play isn't encouraged then why did they make a splat devoted entirely to it, despite potential conflicts of theme?
>>46063521
>Gen-Xers are any different? Let's remember they're the generation that embraced the term 'slacker'.
they at least didn't demand people give them stuff for it.
>>46063683
Did you notice how that splat crashed and burned?
"they" didn't do shit; OP isn't a unified bloc of writers with a single coherent vision for the setting.
Matt stood behind Beast and its crossover aspect; I doubt very many of the other writers did.
>>46063495
See?
If they aren't strong enough to resist, they don't deserve freedom.
>>46063409
>Having a materialist view of consciousness, I see no difference.
Materialistic views of consciousness are explicitly wrong in Mage, though.
>>46063434
>>46063495
Man, and I wonder why my players think playing a high-Wisdom mage isn't an option...
>>46063546
Baby Boomers are the worst
>>46063701
But Gen X-ers are almost as bad.
Both of them blame me for their problems because they just can't handle the fact that they threw this nation away by embracing the capitalism of their forebears without question.
>>46063809
Name an OPP writer who wasn't involved in Beast in some way.
I want to FUCK a cute Mage.
>>46063855
tbf, there's a lot of less invasive options, but these are not discouraged by Pandaemonium.
>>46063701
over 30 detected.
>>46063683
Crossover play is neither encouraged nor discouraged. It's kind of weird. You hear lots of devs talk about how they don't usually run/don't enjoy running crossover games because it dilutes the lines & such, but the standardized format for the supernatural templates in CofD exists in order to support crossover, and many, many books discuss the various supernaturals' opinions of one another.
And then you have the fact that developers have also explicated multiple times, dozens of times, that they do NOT balance the abilities of the various splatbooks against one another, only internally.
My take on it is that you can do crossover if you really want to but you should only have, at most, a single out-of-place character. Four players playing four different types of supernatural is going to be a clusterfuck no matter how you slice it.
>>46063883
"in some way"? I wouldn't know, because we don't have full credits.
But "sure I'll make 5,000 words writing the Lair section" isn't an endorsement for "crossover totally intended and works great u guiz," it's "I want to eat lunch this week."
>>46063886
You don't fuck mages, mages fuck you.
>>46063883
Writers: Rose Bailey, Dave Brookshaw, Jim Fisher, Emily
Griggs, Andrew Heston, David A Hill Jr, Dana Hughes,
Matthew McFarland, Renee Ritchie, Travis Stout, Peter
Woodworth, Sam Young
So
Chris Allen
I used to play Mage: the Ascension, Vampire: the Masquerade and (unfortunately) Werewolf: the Apocalypse.
My players may get back together, but the stuff is long since lost and gone.
For an Old World of Darkness player, should I stick with what I know or move to New World of Darkness. I have no idea what that entails or what the differences are?
We played V:tM the most, but I like GMing M:tA the most.
>>46063973
They're wildly different games and settings, so it's kind of unpredictable whether you'll like one based on liking the other.
Grab Vampire: the Requiem 2e (also called Blood & Smoke Chronicle) from the OP, give it a read-through, see if you like it. Try not to compare it to VtM, because it's not and never going to be.
>>46063916
>You don't fuck mages, mages fuck you.
You do if they're Whipping Boys.
>>46063911
What about the people who approved the pitch in the first place? Well, I say people but it's really just Rich isn't it?
>>46063973
You should definitely move to new.
Old is in-between editions right now and there's going to be huge metaplot changes.
>>46063883
>>46063963
Ian Watson, too
Also Holden Shearer, John Morke, Rich Dansky, and a bunch of others that deserve a burning hatred for entirely different reasons
>>46063973
nWoD games started out in early 1e as trying and mostly failing to ape oWoD games, but by 2e they're very much their own games.
My suggestion is to acquire both: the 20th anniversary editions of VtM, WtA, and MtAsc, and the second editions of VtR and WtF (and soon MtAw).
Don't expect them to be the same games. Don't try to force Awakening to be Ascension or vice versa. Embrace the differences and enjoy.
>>46063973
You should get better taste and move on to nWoD
>>46064092
>>46064023
Okay. So its a different game but in a few words... how?
>>46064069
Ian isn't a CofD writer though, he does art. And icons for chat games. And Trinity someday.
>>46064037
Rich has to take an overall view of things.
Namely: "Will this make enough money to justify the time and effort spent on it?"
Which is pretty far from "will the crossover aspect of this be stupid and incoherent?"
And only really intersects at "will the crossover aspect of this be SO bad that it renders the line unprofitable?"
And, the answer there is probably no, because anyone who WANTS to play a WoD crossover is already used to the games spitting and complaining about it every step of the way, so the fact Beast doesn't actually help crossovers at all is no change of pace.
>>46064107
The comparison most people use is "oWoD is urban fantasy with some horror in its guts, nWoD is personal horror with urban fantasy as a frame."
Most of the supernaturals are less powerful in nWoD than they were in oWoD, both at an individual and broad level. Even if you assembled every single nVamp in the world as a single unified army, it probably wouldn't stand up to a single oVamp Antediluvean.
>>46064107
oWoD is for teenagers, nWoD is for mature adults
>>46064182
pffffff
>>46064182
All WoD if for children
>>46064163
Does the Masquerade still exist and all the workings for good political conniving? Or has the conflict moved so completely to the self that everyone just says "fuck it" and battles their own demons?
Thanks a lot, by the way, its much easier to ask here than sort through shitty enworld forums.
So, anybody else on here watched Deutschland 83?
It's making me wish Dark Eras was out, so I could get my hands on Into The Cold and run a game with it.
>>46064120
people seemed really interested before the whole anti-mra thing got posted
>>46064243
4e hasn't come out yet
but it takes place post-Gehenna
>>46064261
>It's making me wish Dark Eras was out, so I could get my hands on Into The Cold and run a game with it.
You know that section is available to the public, right? It has been since the Kickstarter
>>46064243
The Masquerade still exists & the politics are perhaps even more cutthroat. Five factions, wildly different from region-to-region with relatively little global organization vie for control of the world's cities.
I'm not TERRIBLY familiar with Masquerade outside of the video game but the apocalyptic themes are gone, the level of control that elder vamps have has been lessened(slightly) and there are horribly evil owl-spirit things that claim to be the progenitor of all Kindred & are real mad about it.
>>46064243
>>46064290 is talking about VtM 4e, by the way.
And yes, nWoD still has a masquerade (or equivalents); there's still bigger fights going on, it's just less... cosmic/global, as a setting overall.
>>46064243
The Masquerade is still a thing in Vampire, although it's mostly handled by the Invictus (who are also the old ingrained power structure Covenant - they're kinda sorta the Camarilla, although not nearly as monolithic in their control)
A big part of Requiem is that while the elders are powerful, they aren't so powerful that a determined, prepared and smart coterie couldn't destroy them, though still with great risk to themselves.
>>46062862
Yes for ghosts and as for spirits, it depends on several factors.
>>46064909
>Yes for ghosts
where do you get that idea? they have no souls, they're just flawed memories of things, you might as well say its morally objectionable to throw away a newspaper
>>46063894
I think the best way to handle a crossover with multiple games is to grab an antagonist that isn't central to any of the games and introduce them in a way that explains why all these different creatures are getting together. Vampire/Werewolf/Mage game? Make a game based around the Inferno.
>>46062176
I've long wanted to implement my own idea for Beast, which basically has the Beasts be humans transformed into avatars of humanity's fears due to an inborn susceptibility to it, kind of like how those with certain unseen senses can become Bound. You'd have fear-related powers, but wouldn't be motivated by the need to feed so much as the need to carve out your own home outside the influence of the Heroes who'll be hunting for you.
>>46064480
>not as monolithic as the Camarilla
>Camarilla getting stomped left and right by Sabbatniggers
How could a monolithic power structure be even worse?
General question to the masses: How common are Sleepwalkers/supernatural mortals?
>>46065332
Five to ten times more common than mages.
>>46065332
Mages need to get OUT
>>46065332
As common as you need them to be.
I've always run that "Sleepwalker, nothing more" is the most common supernatural change to a human. Count that however you want.
>>46065019
They're sapient.
>>46065463
They aren't, they can only act based on memories and their own passions. It's basically the opposite of sapience. Some of them are just echoes, doing the same thing over and over because they don't know any better.
Chronicles of fagness
>>46065521
You're super late.
>>46065492
>they can only act based on memories and their own passions.
You've just described humans there.
I guess the Rank 1 looping kind of ghosts would be fine to screw with though.
>>46062176
The Primordial Dream births nightmares and legends into this world to feed on the primal things in men.
It births beasts to reap the harvest.
Beasts would hunt legends; the most infamous vampires, ghost ridden asylums and deranged mages all sit on the menu, the end of their legend fills the beast and feeds the Primordial dream. But the dream is always hungry, and even when the world is empty its hunger will never die.
I would set beasts up as the guys who go after the biggest fish, the scariest critters and the oldest ghosts because if they didn't, they would starve.They hang out with other splats not just to fit in and find something that resembles family, but to pull in resources for that big score. They pull everyones strings, make lots of friends and always, always have trouble kicking in their door.
I think crossover monster hunter would of been cool. Like, a splat made to handle all those one shots you have tumbling around in your head, but don't want to use because a play 'doesn't play changeling' or something. Also a part of me likes the idea of a splat that goes around turning the establishment in a location on its head for no other reason then "you were famous, so I ate you."
>>46065608
>You've just described humans there.
Humans can react based on observations about the the present they aren't stuck reacting off of data tht stopped being updted at the time of death.
And humans do not ONLY react off their own passions, they can act against them, or without them, while angry ghst can't stop being angry ghost.
>>46065463
>>46065492
This has changed immensely between 1e and 2e now that ghosts have ranks. Some of them are tapes on loop, others have actual minds and feelings and desires and et cetera.
>They aren't, they can only act based on memories and their own passions.
This describes ghosts in Exalted, not ghosts in CofD.
>>46065684
(Some) Ghosts can form new memories, reason, and make decisions based off of stimulus, otherwise you wouldn't be able to talk to them. Are you saying there isn't anything wrong with mind controlling people with brain damage?
>>46065332
Depends. Wolfblooded are pretty damn common since all they require is fuck-happy werewolves. Ghouls are easy to make but hard to maintain, since they are basically more blood that you have to spend periodically. Sleepwalkers... are sleepwalkers. They are less common than any other, but more common than Mages. 5 to 1 is a good number I'd say, like someone else said. Fae-touched... A little bit more or less than 1 per Lost, depending on circumstance and how many people you have that are willing to go to hell and back to get you out of hell and back to meatspace. Demiurges are rare as fuck, and so are the children of Prometheans.
>>46065680
The obvious problem with this is that it would quickly turn any interparty play into a nightmare of "Can I eat that guy to not starve?", and of course basically encouraging... Nay, stating peopel should do dumb shit like try and take on the local Elder for no reason beyond "I was hungry", and probably will lead to total party kills since the obvious thing to do when a Beast shows up in town is "everoyne converge on them and stomp their shit".
There would probably even be bounties for younger supernaturals to turn beasts in.
>>46066097
>all they require is fuck-happy werewolves.
Wolf-blooded=/=genetic relation to a werewolf
There is no rhyme or reason to who becomes wolf-blooded, its just that relatives of Werewolves are slightly more likely
You can become a Wolf-Blooded just from seeing a werewolf in Dalu form, if you take a Dramatic Failure on the Lunacy roll
>>46066145
well yeah, but being related to a werewolf is a better chance than... well just about anything else
>>46066311
but it's not required
>>46066385
I didn't say it was, I just said that relation is the easiest way
>>46066431
>Wolfblooded are pretty damn common since all they require is fuck-happy werewolves.
>>46066438
It's also worth noting that fuck-happy werewolves wouldn't make Wolf-Blooded, in 1e. They'd make ghost children, or whatever they were called
>>46066522
how is that worth noting?
especially when fuck-happy werewolves could still fuck humans and create wolf blooded?
or are you just so scared of admitting you were wrong that you have to change the subject?
>>46066550
I'm not >>46066097
I'm >>46066145
Just noting another flaw in his statement
Can the average human take the Gauru knot?
>>46066717
Most likely not. They'd need training.
>>46065385
I was hoping more of a ratio to mortals than Mages.
>>46065299
>tfw you crop an image and other people keep re-posting it
Not what I expected, but it warms the cold cockles of my heart.
>>46064230
>>46064206
Why doesn't nWoD has one of these? Checkmate, old worlders
Take your trenchcoat and katana and leave
>>46066717
Considering that Gauru outside of combat means instant deathrage the world may never know.
>>46067527
don't worry, thats what Father's Form is for
>>46067527
Unless you use a Gift.
>>46067626
>>46067646
Ah. White Wolf. Pandering to both Furries AND Feminists.
>>46067289
oi, you do realize that there is plenty of cringeworthy shit in nW right?
>>46067670
>a dark irony, indeed
>>46067687
DON'T MAKE ME GET OUT THE BELIAL'S BROOD BOOK...
no seriously don't make me, I'd have to spend time finding it
>>46062176
>>46062835
>>46065224
Just make it real simple. You, whatever you are, are an animal. You prey on humans to live. You hurt and kill them because of an overpowering compulsion or hunger. You cannot exist, you cannot live without consuming humans. And some would argue that it creates a moral wash for you. It's just nature when you assault a human. It's just the way of things. Don't you have a right to live as well?
But you could have ended it any time you want. You could have fallen on the hunter's sword anytime. But you didn't.
Just be the big predatory animal that preys on humans in order to live. That's what all the beasts in the folklore were. You can be "nice" about it. You can revel in it. But you need to feed and that's the bottom line.
The problem with Beast the Primordial was that it wanted to eat its cake and have it to. It wanted to make PCs that could have the power trip of being abusers and predators without ever confronting the fact that it makes you a monstrous barely-human animal. The worst you -have- to do is give people bad dreams and you can easily spin that into it being "for their own good". And the hunters are encouraged to be outrageous caricatures.
The horror of this books should be that No, you ARE the monster. You ARE the Beast. And the Hunters are just trying to protect people from you, you sick fuck.
>>46067697
I always found VII worse. Belial's Brood is about a cult who honestly think that they shouldn't try to be human.
>>46067664
How is that pandering? Father's Form lets you use Gauru as a utility form, essentially. You still trigger full delirium and still risk falling into murderbloodrage if you start combat in it.
>>46067734
Anything that enables werewolf sex is bad.
The game is too furry as it is.
>>46067746
Mage enables werewolf sex. Gangrels enable werewolf sex. Beast (changeling) enables "werewolf" sex. Prometheans with certain transmutations enable werewolf sex.
Stop thinking about thick knots so much anon
>>46067721
Now that creates a bit of a problem. That's not a large variety of stories that can be told with this set up. But Promethean had the same problem. So eh.
To complicate things have the moral dilemma of the story be you trying to "make up" for snacking on humans. You do good things. Really. You donate to charity. You adopt orphans. You have a family.
But maybe all that is just a shield you erected in front of yourself more on beastly instinct than on human kindness.
Dependents should be a mechanic that is encouraged. Grendel had a mommy. Typhon and Echidna had broods of monsters. Beasts should have children or the equivalent thereof. Maybe new beasts struggling with the change? Innocent people you "infected"? Actual little kids? Whatever they are they can provide "justification" for your existence. If you die, they'll die later. And as you sire more and more dependents your connection to your humanity suffers. You start to think of things more in an "us vs humans" mindset.
So key things:
1. You hurt people to live.
2. You create or protect things like yourself
Anything else we can add to the "main theme" of Beast: The Bettering?
>>46067767
>Yiffing is possible in every book
You're just showing the extent of furry pandering anon.
Do Beasts have integrity?
They have no uniques morale guiding how they should play but does the Horror's needs really make them pic related?
Or are they only allowed to steal and rape without integrity loss when justified by necessity and even then they might slip towards villainy?
>>46067811
Can unchained yiff?
>>46067811
no, you are just obsessed with knotmore than me
>>46067811
>Can't yiff in Geist
Once again based voodoo mardi gras stand users are best book.
Can't slight the geist.
>>46067746
people transforming into animals is not inherently furry. there is a certain intangible marker of "furry culture" stuff that you can identify really easily if you're versed in it and Werewolf fails to ping that radar.
A). Actual "furry art" in the style that betrays...furriness is absent. No multicolored polka dot fur, big cartoonish eyes etc.
B). Elements of wish fulfillment/idealization are absent. While werewolves are physically robust, the isolation from their human lives, the fact that they are now visible to a vast otherworld of monstrous, hungry beings, the threat of visiting horrific violence on friends & loved ones becoming very real etc. communicates that being a werewolf is not fun.
>>46067832
Technically Satiety is their Integrity, it's just also their fuel. Being low on Satiety apparently makes you more monstrous, as seen here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JEao4dYUZQw&index=11&list=PLYoPB_-4spsSBQ0OIzR7vF3Q-23V8R3sx
>>46067832
The integrity analog in Beast is Satiety, which is just a measure of how full they are. It has no bearing on their sanity and is also their fuel stat.
They should have compulsion mechanic for low satiety then.
Currently the fact that they have no human souls does away with most moral dilemmas but for some reasoning their reasoning stays too human (only heroes can currently make them act beastly).
I knows starving makes the Horror hunt automatically but even then the damage to the Beast is only indirect. When starving or low satiety the Beast should feel compelled to hunt and possibly the Horror should manifest more forcefully (partly modelled already but could be more involuntary).
i saw a thread or two ago someone said that time arcanum for mage 2e was leaked. where would i find that if i wanted to skim through?
>>46068100
First I've heard about it. Suspect it's a lie, else the thread would be all a-buzz about it.
>Also: your favourite faction / clan / whatever (from WoD or CoD)?
Shadow Lords
They got the ruthlesness of the Lasombra but with the ethnicity of the Tzimisce
Meaning they're not italians spic gypsies
Someone asked for Ghostbusters stuff, so I threw this together. Thoughts?
>Proton Pack
Damage * Ranges 15/30/60 Clip ∞ Initiative -4 Strength 4 Size 4 Availability Just like super illegal
When used against a ghost or other ephemeral entity, the proton pack counts as the entity's Bane, as described on Chronicles of Darkness page 128. In addition to dealing damage, an ephemeral being hit with a blast from the Proton Pack loses a point of Essence for every point of damage. If multiple characters use a proton pack on the same entity, or it loses more Essence than it has Willpower, it takes the Stunned Condition.
The Proton Pack deals 4 damage to ghosts rank 3 or lower. The effectiveness is weakened when used on stranger ghosts, like Geister and Kerberoi, as well as Spirits and Angels. Anything other than a low ranking Ghost takes a -1 to damage, and against Angels the damage is -2. The Proton Pack also has 9-Again when used on Manifested beings. If the streams are crossed, treat it as if a Fragmentation Grenade went off: Everyone in 10 yards takes 6A + 3 dice worth of damage. Everyone 20 yards out takes 4L and three dice worth of damage. The rolls have 8-Again, and anyone subject to them takes knockdown. Or the universe explodes.
If used on a living being the proton pack deals 4A and is treated as if the streams were crossed.
>>46069075
>Ghost Trap
When opened, the trap creates a powerful beam of light and energy that both acts as the Open Condition and pulls any entities in Twilight towards it. Each turn, the entity must spend a point of Willpower and roll Resistance + Rank to avoid being sucked inside of the trap, with the roll being penalized by the trap's equipment bonus. If the entity fails it becomes Fettered to the trap (even if it doesn't know that Manifestation). Closing the trap restricts the ephemeral entity from leaving the trap. It can then be safely disposed of in the containment unit.
Due to the make up of the Ghost Trap, it cannot be subject to any Conditions for ephemeral beings other than the ones that it creates, and is immune to any influences used by beings with Rank lower than 3, and any others take a penalty equal to the trap's equipment bonus.
>>46069075
>>46069086
Well that is CERTAINLY gonna get you in the good books of every Sin-Eater ever.
If Mages are naturally curious beings why are there hermit Mages who Isolate themselves by being alone or being high wisdom and mingling with sleepers?
>>46069186
Thematic dissonance between editions.
Mages now have actual mechanics behind their Obsessions, driving them towards Mysteries.
>>46069212
I guess the very place they are being in hermit mode there is an on going mystery. Maybe a mage is just lucky her hometown has a mystery that would take a long time to study.
Hey if a little girl can ascend so can you!
>>46069301
That girl went through 100 Hells to get to that point.
>>46069301
So what was her quintessence for that retroactive spell?
>>46069362
Homura's never ending suffering.
>>46069362
The destruction of 100 earth timelines.
>>46057766
I remember when a Mage fucked with one of the Changeling Motleys on a MUSH I was playing on.
This guy was one of those powergaming shitstains who would literally lie to a storyteller about shit just so he could flex all his twinked out powers on his 500 XP build.
The whole motley planned out how they were going to get him, staked out gridspace, and when he actually posed into a scene walkin' down the street, they have like 5 Lost and a staffer there ready to referee.
Suddenly he claimed that he was wearing a bulletproof vest and hiding in the bushes and had all his wards up despite having just posed walking down the street.
They mobbed his ass anyways, flat out fucking murdered him. Then they chopped up his body and spread the pieces through the Hedge.
Don't fuck with Lost.
>>46069436
what did he do to earn their ire
Madoka became sleeper to ascension in one go. Actually that's a lie. Madoka was a mage with accumulated 100 years of experience with Homura's going back in time to redo the same year over and over. Time is an illusion a lie.
>>46069212
>>46069251
>>46069186
Mages become hermits because some damned foreigner might steal your research.
>>46069382
>if you played Changeling on Haunted Memories I probably had sex with you.
Tell me more.
>>46069473
I forget, he either attacked one of them or tried to blackmail one of the girls into fucking him.
>>46069511
Well I had sex with like everyone so hey.
>>46069500
Homura brought with her a temporal sympathetic connection in each and every jump with her. Adding the previous Madokas awakened soul to the next. However a soul is Supernal and the same regardless of time and space
>>46069436
>Took a whole motley to bring down one single mage
>And had to ambush him on his way to get a morning coffe nonetheless
Just more proof of the superiority of mages, famisempai :^)
>>46063973
Use the 20th Anniversary books, those are the most updated ones.
>>46070345
By god someone posted. I thought this thread died.
>>46070392
It was only down for 40 minutes. These threads have been sleeping for hours in the past.
Seriously though, this is basically the slowest time of the day. USA is falling asleep, Europe is either still asleep, or at work.
>>46070406
I've been told this is the most active time. So far your right about it being slow.
>>46070444
The time between 03 and 12 are the least active times. It's between that in most of the US and all of Europe now, yes?
>>46070474
About so it's around 2:30 am where I am.
talk about mummy
I know it's not the same time period but aaaaah, I want Neolithic Mage after watching this
https://youtu.be/7Yh-zFCILR4
And because I'm still on Youtube:
>Sin-eater rants for twelve minutes about the lack of respect Western culture holds for mourning
https://youtu.be/wyvV_svdEb8
>>46070933
I want my mummy!
>>46067721
>>46067794
So, Vampire, except with less moral ambiguity because the themes are even more blunt? I will humbly disagree that any of this sounds fun.
And I still have complete faith in my own idea here. >>46065224
>Mage: the Ascension
I was thinking about consensual reality and the common cold earlier. So most people know that lower temperatures don't cause the cold by themselves, its several factors that low temps are involved in. However, we still talk and think about the common cold as if it is caused by low temps. In M:tAs, this could be one of the last holdouts of the Consensus that the Technocracy hasn't completely "corrected" yet. The Progenitors are trying to, but its hard because the connection between low temps and the common cold are so strong.
Thoughts?
>>46067697
Belial's Brood doesn't have much cringeworthy stuff, unless you're a ten year old afraid of blood. They're philosophers and explorers..
>>46072173
They're philosophers and explorers of THE EDGE. I don't mind them as villains, really, but I also like the Sabbat as villains; Belial's Brood is by no means better.
>>46072198
They're philosophers and explorers of evil, because that's what they believe the Beast is.
For all they do, they're still better than the Khmer Rouge and ISIS and Germany.
>>46072240
and the rape-promoting movie, television and music industries
Have you ever used H:tV conspiracies/compacts as antagonists for the other gamelines? And how did you portrayed them?
>>46072240
Only due to smaller numbers and the need to remain secret. And even then, you have, say, the Scarlet Rite, which is involved in human trafficking/sex slavery. The best you can say about any individual Forsworn is that he's a serial killer.
I am probably going to make a campaigns with Hotel Mascaron and Dreamers.
Post unreliable narrator/gaslighting/double agent inspiration pls.
>>46072281
>And even then, you have, say, the Scarlet Rite, which is involved in human trafficking/sex slavery.
Which is nothing compared to the groups just mentioned.
>The best you can say about any individual Forsworn is that he's a serial killer.
If you want to judge them solely on their crimes, which is missing the point
>>46072309
>Which is nothing compared to the groups just mentioned.
Again, solely due to scale, diffusion, and secrecy.
>If you want to judge them solely on their crimes, which is missing the point
I don't know, the crimes seem like the most significant part.
>>46072368
>Again, solely due to scale, diffusion, and secrecy.
Not really. The focus is inward. Belial's Brood is about enlightenment of the self. The mentioned groups were about persecution of others.
>I don't know, the crimes seem like the most significant part.
That's because you're missing the point
>>46072406
It varies. The Mercy Seat wants to send as many other people to Hell as possible so they can have full control of Heaven, the Throne of Smokeless Fire is all about dominating others, there's the aforementioned Scarlet Rite... I believe that the Roaring Serpent has a strong "dominating others" feel to it as well, and the Pandaemonium is of course incredibly rapacious. The Nameless are the most inward-focused, but they're still quite evil.
>That's because you're missing the point
And what is the point?
>>46072442
>And what is the point?
the mercy seat believe they ARE in hell, along with everyone else, and will only be rejoined with their creator when there's no one in heaven, they don't believe they're controlling heaven and thats not a goal. Scarlet Rite is about hedonism, it's practically glorified jacking off, the paendamonium just want to be traditional vampires and tear down the maserade. and the Nameless are hardly evil
>And what is the point?
Vampires aren't serial kilers or murderers any more than cancer or a plague or time or a huricane can be. they aren't citizens, they aren't protected by the law, they don't have to live by it (unless the masqerade goes down)
becase they're not people, they're vampires, they have their own rules to live by, not like all the other covenants, who insist on embracing some knock off of human culture
If World of Darkness is trenchcoats, sunglasses and katanas...
What is Chronicles of Darkness?
Aside from fagness.
>>46072912
Skinny jeans, fedora and a spud gun
>>46072922
Is this guy Orpheus fan, then?
>>46072912
Hair shirts, scourges, and pocket mirrors.
>>46072580
My problem with Belial's Brood is that while I like them a lot they really feel like they only exist because when they were making VtR 1e they were like "shit, we need an equivalent to the Baali in Masquerade."
They incorporate a lot of interesting things (Investments are cool, I LOVE how their Coveys work, their Valderie is way cooler than the Sabbat's and the way the Therion "bloodline" works is neat as hell) but ultimately they don't represent any themes that can't be equally well done by any of the other Covenants. I mean, their focus on embracing the Beast is basically identical to the Circle of the Crone, they're just worshiping the Adversary instead of the Crone...
Any creature in MtAw resembles Madoka Magical witches?
>>46073558
>I mean, their focus on embracing the Beast is basically identical to the Circle of the Crone, they're just worshiping the Adversary instead of the Crone...
This is only because 2e botched the Circle. The 1e Circle had a lot more variety and nuance than Belial's Brood.
>>46072306
Integrate scene changes into the story. Players accept that as a narrative device, so play with that. Don't always tell them what happened between scenes and slowly drop hints that they have black-outs.
>>46073786
...No, I mean this in both 1e and 2e.
How exactly did 2e "botch" the Circle? They're depicted almost exactly the same way - plus you can't really argue "variety" when 2e only has a single book out, of course 1e had more variants listed, the Circle had it's own book for crissake. And I've yet to find anything in that book (conceptually, not mechanically) that doesn't work just fine per 2e.
The Circle is already the "we embrace the Beast" Covenant. Belial's Brood would be more interesting (IMO) if they leaned heavier on the Demonic elements and had them more explicitly dealing with Inferno demons or similar.
>>46073985
The 2e one completely removed Creation is Power and Tribulation Brings Enlightenment, and also made them far more violent. Granted, Secrets of the Covenants might change this, but Blood and Smoke didn't give a good impression. Also the Circle does not "embrace the Beast," it accepts its nature as vampiric; the vast majority of Circle cults recognize the importance of not devolving into a feral monster. Hell, a few don't even use Cruac, because of its imbalancing effects, and the Circle as a whole explicitly treats experienced Acolytes who've never killed with great respect for their self-control.
>>46067879
>voodoo mardi gras stand users
I'd never taken interest in Geist before, but now I may look into it
>>46073985
>>46074021
I wouldn't say that 2e "completely removes" the themes of creation and tribulation, it's just that instead it focuses on the nature of the Circle as a bunch of disparate groups that are all pagan and shamanistic in nature. In many ways they're the Free Council of the vampire world. If anything, what I dislike is that Cruac is inherently evil and restricts your Humanity even though there's no real need for such a mechanical limitation, and it prevents you from both being a kind hearted hippy nature priest who is one with her Beast.
And yes, the Circle has always more or less been the most violent Covenant, which has always been baked directly into it's mechanics. There also IS a lot of support for that kind of thing in SoC.
Mandragora Garden allows you to grow and tend to plants
Temple Guardian is a passive style that allows you to defend others
Cruac Style... is neat, but ultimately pointless, since it's just a weird side effect
And of course there's a ritual to birth a God of blood and death.
>>46067879
>Unlocking the Primeval Caul allows a Sin-eater to take on aspects of animals to enhance his body.
>>46074935
>Unlocking the Primeval Caul allows a Sin-eater to take on aspects of animals to enhance his body
Dare you take the ghost knot?
>>46074935
Remember that 2e core only gives 3 PAGES to each Covenant. Obviously it's not going to go very far into detail as to their themes. And see what >>46074935 posted - they ARE going into those themes in Secrets of the Covenants, if their new merits and such are any indication.
Also, remember that in VtR (and this is one of my favorite things about VtR, especially over VtM) is that the 5 Covenants are NOT GOOD GUYS. The Covenants don't exist to stop Kindred from doing bad things; while there are Circle cults who would give more respect to an Acolyte who's never killed, others would do the exact opposite. And the same goes for every other covenant - sometimes they're "good", sometimes they're horribly monstrous. It's why any Covenant can be a Protagonist or Antagonist faction, depending on your Chronicle.
Which takes me back to my problem with Belial's Brood. They're basically "What the Circle looks like when they're evil," but the Circle can do that on their own just fine...
>>46075153
I think you quoted the wrong person. And what makes this better than Masquerade, precisely?
>>46075153
>Remember that 2e core only gives 3 PAGES to each Covenant.
Doesn't VtR core give only 4 PAGES?
My problem with the Covenants (and I'm not >>46073786, and felt this was a problem in 1e as well) is that they're not only NOT GOOD GUYS, they're kind of bad guys. I hate how so many of them have core beliefs that encourage the Beast and shun the Man. This is actually the worst in the Crone, because they're set up as the most likely to be good (they even have the concept of Maidens, who are basically innocents that serve as priest[esse]s), but also are built in evil with Cruac being evil blood magic fueled by torture.
>>46075281
Because there's actual nuance, instead of just "good guys who are dicks" and "bad guys who are super evil".
>>46075281
Cammies are always the good guys, Sabbat are always the bad guys
In VtR you can have a chronicle where the Lancea are the good guys, and the Invictus the bad guys, despite them being more or less the sabbat and the camarilla respectively
You can also just have them both be neutral and focus on the Circle as the good guys, with the Carthians as the bad guys, or any other combination
But if you play a VtM game, you're almost always going to see the Sabbat as the bad guys who kill people with no remorse, because that's their thing
>>46075403
>In VtR you can have a chronicle where the Lancea are the good guys
Let's not get crazy here.
>>46075281
Whoops, yea. Meant to link >>46074021 the first time.
And I wouldn't say it's BETTER than Masquerade, just that I like it more.I like it because it's more flexible than Masquerade's factions. In Masquerade the Camarilla and Anarchs are pretty obviously the "good guys", insofar as they're "better" than the Sabbat (or the Baali or the Giovanni or the True Black Hand or etc.) It takes some doing to make a GOOD Sabbat group. Wheras in VtR, I can come up with a scenario where any Covenant can be the "good guys" in a conflict against another.
Which is really more commentary on oWoD's more "metaplot-y" structure and CofD's more toolbox structure, I guess. I prefer the latter.
>>46075374
>>46075403
>>46075452
But plenty of members of the Camarilla are evil as hell. Camarilla membership runs the gamut of morality. Sure, the Sabbat might always be evil, but so is Belial's Brood (and I personally don't see how the Lancea Sanctum could be anything other than evil, given their dogma).
>>46075374
See I see that as a feature, not a drawback. I mean, in 2e joining a covenant (enough to gain status) is a Humanity 5 Breaking point. Gaining power as a Vampire, whether it be through learning new powers or through gaining status among other Kindred, inherently pulls you away from your Humanity, because you're focusing on inhuman concerns.
Being inhuman =/= evil. The Circle isn't (necessarily) concerned with torture and murder, they're just not concerned with being human anymore. Which can possibly include murder and torture, sure, but that's not WHY something like Cruac caps your humanity. It caps your humanity because its FUNDAMENTALLY INHUMAN.
>>46075532
I'd believe that argument if losing Humanity also didn't inherently make you closer to devolving into a mindless, feral predator. The situation would work much better with a Path of Enlightenment system.
>>46074021
>The 2e one completely removed Creation is Power and Tribulation Brings Enlightenment
Wait, it did? That was the whole appeal of the Circle.
The whole "fuck you, this isn't a curse, we're not metaphysically static and sterile" thing was neat.
>>46075524
Right, but it means that when I'm setting up a game, in Masquerade I'm basically assuming that unless I'm running an "evil game", my players are going to be Camarilla (or Anarchs, possibly) and they're going to be fighting Sabbat (and possibly Baali, or Assamites, or etc.)
Whereas in VtR I can have players come to me with an Acolyte, a Carthian, and a Ordo Initiate, and I can say "alright, cool, I'll just say that in your domain the Invictus and Lancea are allied and also being dicks"; or I could have them all be Invictus and Circle and say "alright, you're dealing with some Carthian anarchists wrecking shit, also the Lancea are trying to convert your neonates", and so on. You can make any configuration of the 5 covenants work.
>>46075617
Having run 2e, I can safely say that while that is true, retaining humanity is not really that difficult. It's not like 1e or VtM, it requires some effort on the player's part to keep up their human connections and Touchstones, but even a Crone blood-witch with 5 dots in Cruac can keep herself at Humanity 4-5 with an acceptable amount of effort (because it should take SOME effort - otherwise you start to get into VtM Vampion territory and that's not what VtR is for.)
>>46075696
That's totally still there, don't worry. Heck, the thing you said is still explicitly stated in the 2e Core, they just didn't use the exact terminology from 1e (mostly because the covenant writeups are more condensed than in 1e, and focus more on "what it's like to join this covenant" than the philosophical basis behind them.)
>>46074935
>it prevents you from both being a kind hearted hippy nature priest who is one with her Beast.
The Beast is an angry, hateful monster who wants to kill anything it perceives as food, competition, or a threat (which to the Beast includes almost everyone), so this makes perfect sense.
>>46075777
But the Camarilla is large enough to encompass anything you might want in a range similar to the five covenants. You can be in any clan and be part of the Camarilla (though Tzimisce and Giovanni will have no company), and the political situation can be one of many options. There are also plenty of enemies to be had, both the vampiric ones you mentioned, Camarilla rivals, and human hunters.
And define "Vampion?"
>People defending Masquerade
Oh my god, is this real life?
>>46075848
>And define "Vampion?"
Vampire Champion
It's the nickname for people who play VtM as a superhero game with some dark bits, because if you downplay the struggle with humanity and all that, that's basically what VtM is
>>46075532
It's a Humanity breaking point because you're inherently becoming less human. Being low Humanity isn't being EVIL, just less human, that's true, but Cruac is said to limit Humanity because of the 1e version: You're literally using torture magic. It even still says that in the write up. Cruac involves a certain amount of cruelty.
And I don't like that I can't be a beautiful caring nature spirit... who also turns into a mother bear because fuck you Nature is deadly.
Just in general I don't like that the Covenants trend towards Evil as opposed to Less Human.
>>46075919
VtR can Vampion just as hard as VtM can, mind you, especially with 2e making Vampires way tougher and buffing the shit out of the physical Disciplines.
>>46075961
Less Human IS More Evil. That's a pretty common thread in pretty much CofD game, even in Beast.
I have some trouble to understand the Tribal bans in W:tF, especially Iron Masters and Hunters in Darkness ones. In what situation they may be broken and what are the consequences?
>>46076038
It's also crap. The worst evil has very consistently come from humanity IRL.
>>46076071
This is what the Ashwood Abbey and the Hunt Club are for
>>46076071
the "how human are you" tracks tend to be "how well does your morality line up with the average comfortable first-world human civilian", the sort who balks at petty theft. The baseline human it uses isn't particularly capable of or prone to horrifying evils.
>>46076022
Vampions or not, are we getting Methuselahs yet?
>>46076038
Not really. Hell, Werewolf is especially against the notion that less human means evil.
>>46076108
Mage's morality on the other hand penalizes you for "I did what I had to do", solving other people's problems for them, and other such acts of playing God, even if they're moral.
>>46076108
Well, that's not really humanity so much as it is morality.
Honestly and truly, I dislike the Humanity stat and all of its derivatives across all WoD games. I'm against anything that mechanically requires roleplaying in certain directions, but this is actually worse than D&D's alignment system, because that at least didn't require experience points to change.
>>46076114
get dubs and it shall happen
>>46076152
1e's Humanity ladder was literally just the Morality ladder.
1e's Wisdom ladder was literally just the Morality ladder, but with extra magical sins tacked on too, which results in weird shit like "your character being okay with using basic direct-attack magic means they're necessarily also totally okay with killing people in a non-premeditated fashion", since those occupy the same rung.
>>46076152
>because that at least didn't require experience points to change.
Neither does Humanity or any of the other morality stats, technically, unless it's something like Wisdom or Cover where raising that back up after you fall is a specific effort you have to go through, and in both instances you have an entirely separate experience pool to spend on those(Arcane and Cover experience/beats)
In Werewolf and Vampire, it's perfectly reasonable to slide back up the scale by acting human/'not evil', and pursuing things that don't matter to the spirit/beast within
>>46076254
IIRC, Vampire does require you to spend experience, unless it was yet another change in 2e that I missed. And it happening with Mage is another thing that irks me; Wisdom is by far my least favorite Humanity derivative, though it's unwelcome in every game.
>>46076254
>Neither does Humanity or any of the other morality stats
What?
I've never seen textual support for anything that isn't a human with a Morality score being able to go back up without spending XP.
Hell, Vampire et al specifically point out how "just acting moral isn't good enough" because of the Beast constantly trying to drag them back down or whatever.
>>46076288
It might have a rule for spending xp to raise your Humanity, but I vaguely remember it talking about raising it without having to spend xp somewhere
And even if it doesn't, hey, that's what rule 0 is for
If you don't want to have to spend xp to raise your morality stat, bring it up with the ST/players and talk about having it be possible through roleplay and in-game action
>>46076301
Werewolves specifically have breaking points towards Flesh, aka the high end of their track
>>46075848
See, I don't like that about the Camarilla. It's just "the faction that most PCs are in." It has so little flavor beyond that.
>>46075961
Nature can be pretty cruel, though.
Humanity doesn't have to be a morality stat. It's about how you're losing your connection to your old identity and, with it, the ability to empathize with those who are more similar to it than you.
2e has made losing Humanity contextual, save for Embracing new vamps. A person who used to get into a lot of fights may not lose Humanity for beating the tar out of someone, but they might when they realize they're no longer afraid of having a gun drawn on them.
As you lose that connection, it's indicative of your closeness to Vampiric instincts, i.e. The Beast.
>>46076376
I was talking about 1e, and 1e Harmony also required spending XP.
2e Harmony is designed for you to slide around in both directions, and I don't think you CAN spend XP on that. At the very least I know 2e Harmony doesn't give Beats when you hit Breaking Points.
>>46076396
Nature is very rarely cruel. It can certainly be painful and gruesome, and is nearly always unsympathetic, but cruelty is only present in the most intelligent beings.
>>46076408
The problem with this is the conflation of "entering a new world and society" and "mindless monstrosity." The idea that connecting to the All-Night Society puts you closer to being a draugr rubs me the wrong way.
>>46076396
>See, I don't like that about the Camarilla. It's just "the faction that most PCs are in." It has so little flavor beyond that.
There's more to the Camarilla than that. It's a massive worldwide pyramid scheme that exists to keep vampiric society safe and stable (which is why it takes the Traditions so seriously), while also ensuring that older vampires retain their control. The Masquerade is almost completely upheld by the Camarilla, which is pretty important.
>>46076051
Tribal bans usually don't have consequences like other bans do. They are more ideals you try to live up to.
>>46076396
Keep in mind, the Camarilla is a sect, with each individual clan acting as covenants with shared blood ancestry.
The games are pretty much the same, Requiem is more ST-friendly. Not much more to it than that...
>>46076433
I get the rankling but I think it's appropriate. Vampires are predators. The Beast isn't some possessing spirit; it's the name they give to the predatory instincts that keep them from starving to death. Losing connection with their Humanity is the slow loss of connection to living existence and, with it, the things which give being human meaning.
A low Humanity vamp isn't mindless, but they are thoroughly single-minded because everything else has been forgotten as the dross it is. They might still carry on the trappings of their life, but it loses meaning because what gave it weight before - the peace after a long day's work as they come back to their home; the illicit thrill of taking someone new home from the club; the horror at exsanguinating a victim - vanishes before their new state of being.
It turns out that the prospect of the same living space for eternity isn't quite so delightful, and the lack of ever feeling tired anymore makes relaxation feel like so much mindless diversion; the club routine loses its meaning as you repeat the same dance, night after night, more interested in a blood meal than getting to experience a person, leaving you feeling like a tarted-up mosquito; and you'd be surprised how quickly you get over something when the Beast roars in the back of your head that it's hungry.
Becoming less human doesn't make you evil, but it costs you something that makes being cold and monstrous easier with each passing night. It takes holding onto things - Touchstones, for example - to keep that at bay.
>>46076051
>>46076524
They're never even called Tribal Bans in the books, its just a bunch of people who read the books assuming they're Bans for some reason I don't understand
They're Tribal Vows, something you probably swore when you joined the Tribe, that's it. There's no mechanical consequence for breaking it, but if you do so on the regular, you're likely to get kicked out of the Tribe whenever other members of the Tribe find out(because you're ruining their reputation)
>>46076607
Wait, why wouldn't you feel tired? Kindred still have Willpower and still spend it; there might not be the same sort of physical exhaustion, but mentally, it'd be there; relaxation would still be valuable.
I guess, as a compromise, I could say that Humanity could still exist as a mechanic, but it shouldn't be defined by dice rolls; rather, it should be a collaboration between player and ST. It gives more flexibility and doesn't dictate from on high how a character feels about a given action.
>>46076605
>>46076445
I realize that - I'm not trying to argue that there's anything WRONG with VtM's sects.
I just personally find the Covenants in VtR more interesting. VtM Clans aren't really a good equivalent because you don't have a choice what Clan you're Embraced into - Covenants add more depth because ultimately what Covenant a Kindred falls into is up to them (ruling out external factors, of course, but theoretically speaking.)
I mean, in VtM, if I want to be a Vampire Wizard, then I better be ready to deal with the Tremere Pyramid. In VtR, not only can I go to TWO different covenants (almost three, depending on what you're looking for), I can be any Clan I want - do I want to be a savage Gangrel Blood Witch? A pious but mysterious Mekhet Theban Sorcerer?
I'm not saying that VtM is bad, but saying it offers anywhere near the variety that VtR does is actually wrong. The games are far from pretty much the same by design.
>>46076707
Mental exhaustion is more tied to physical exhaustion than you'd think. While I agree that vampires can experience it, I can't imagine them finding quite the same relief in the usual sources that they would expect. Still, that's just one example, I can think of dozens of others.
As far as compromises go, though, my perspective is that it already is. Dice simply exist to mechanize consequences and take a bit of control away (since, as you'd expect, you're not totally in control of your unconscious assumptions). As noted before , if I was STing for a character who was a brute in life, I wouldn't make them risk degeneration for beating someone up, but I would for a player whose character was an accountant.
>>46076802
>I mean, in VtM, if I want to be a Vampire Wizard, then I better be ready to deal with the Tremere Pyramid. In VtR, not only can I go to TWO different covenants (almost three, depending on what you're looking for), I can be any Clan I want - do I want to be a savage Gangrel Blood Witch? A pious but mysterious Mekhet Theban Sorcerer?
In VtM, you can also be a Giovanni necromancer, an Assamite or Setite sorcerer, or even a Ravnos illusionist. There are more options than you think.
>>46076816
The character may not be in control of the unconscious assumptions, but the player should be. It's a roleplaying matter, and I don't like things that take that out of my hands. If you want to tell a story of degeneration, then tell it; if you don't, tell something else.
And actually, I'd like to hear your other examples.
>>46076802
>I just personally find the Covenants in VtR more interesting.
I'm not gonna disagree with that, that's a matter of personal taste.
I'm disagreeing with the assertion that the Camarilla as a faction has no flavour.
>>46076820
Let's not forget the Tzimisce and their Koldunic Sorcery.
>>46076872
You already accept the dice taking things out of your hands in other matters. Your Wits and Empathy dice pools decide how aware you are of other people's feelings; your Manipulation and Subterfuge dice pools decide how good a liar you are. Why object here but not there?
As far as examples go, they range from subtle to severe.
Subtle examples might include how a vampire thinks of the future. Every human being ages, but vamps don't. Human beings think about starting families, or planning for retirement, or come to terms with that they're going to die some day. Vamps... Don't. If they're thinking about personal advancement, it's usually towards an indefinite position or something they plan to enjoy for an indefinite amount of time. That subtle change completely divorces them from mortals when thinking of "Life in ten years". That shift is enough to divorce them from a mortal perspective over what is acceptable to do because vampires have no real need to consider what will impac their future if they're in a state they enjoy. Mortals do.
A more extreme example may be how vampires view personal injury. A vampire might shrug at someone trying to shoot them after they get used to being largely immune to violence. That could make them far less nervous about using violence themselves, since the consequences are largely going to be "Need to eat a little extra".
Watch let the right one in. Good VtR movie. Poor Hunter in the end though
>>46077121
Because all of those rely on interaction with the rest of the world; Humanity as a stat is internal and affects only the PC.
>>46076872
From what I remember, Mirrors has options for removing the Morality stats and how to adapt the other mechanics that depend on them.
>>46076820
Right, but the same thing applies - your power is tied to your Clan, and all of the organizational assumptions attached to it. My objection is to "your Clan is also your Faction," because if I want a certain kind of character, I'm stuck being a member of a certain kind of organization (or being forced to play up the fact that I'm NOT a part of that organization, which I may not be interested in.)
You see what I mean? There are assumptions attached to being a Giovanni, or a Tremere, that aren't associated with being a Mekhet or a Daeva.
>>46077008
I don't think it has NO flavour. I just think the fact that it has to be so much of a "Catch-all" makes it lose a lot of potential flavor.
>>46077237
But assumptions attached to being Giovanni or Tremere are no more severe than assumptions attached to being Acolyte or Sanctified.
>>46077167
All of them are internal. They reflect aspects of a character. Characters with low Intelligence aren't that bright, regardless of how intelligent their players are, and it serves to limit them since players may forget this when they see something their character likely wouldn't. It also does the opposite; letting genius characters have insights their players can't muddle through to.
Humanity represents an aspect of the character too; one which impacts how they interact with the world and how well they hold on to their old self.
Just as we mechanize mental disorders, the point of the dice is to provide for what players so often forget and ensure a consistency to the character.
>>46077025
Lasombra and Abyss sorcery
>>46077281
>It also does the opposite; letting genius characters have insights their players can't muddle through to.
As someone who's had to run games for Intelligence 5 PCs, this is pretty hard to actually pull off in a game.
Any idea what 2e Wisdom sins will be?
>>46077237
>Right, but the same thing applies - your power is tied to your Clan, and all of the organizational assumptions attached to it. My objection is to "your Clan is also your Faction," because if I want a certain kind of character, I'm stuck being a member of a certain kind of organization (or being forced to play up the fact that I'm NOT a part of that organization, which I may not be interested in.)
See, I feel like VtR clans went too far in the other direction. Gangrel are ostensibly all distant relatives of each other, but the game really doesn't feel like it.
>>46077310
I generally manage it by calling for Int + Wits rolls (or other dice pools) when appropriate.
>>46077363
http://theonyxpath.com/sophias-choice-mage-the-awakening/
>>46077267
But there are more assumptions, because a Giovanni or Tremere is just a Giovanni or Tremere, wheras an Acolyte or Sanctified is ALSO a Mekhet or Daeva or Ventrue or Nossie or Gangrel. Covenant is a choice a Vampire can make AFTER HIS EMBRACE, not something that he's stuck in based on his Sire.
If I want to be a member of the Pyramid and learn Thaumaturgy, I need to have been embraced by a Tremere or I'm shit out of luck; conversely, if I was embraced by a Tremere and think the Pyramid is shitty and have no interest in magic, well, too fucking bad for me! (Which can lead to interesting stories, sure, but what if that's not the story I'm interested in?)
Wheras in VtR, I (in-character) still can't choose my Clan, but that determines less about the rest of my unlife than the Covenant I join, which is up to me. Even if my Sire is Invictus, if I think the Invictus are fascist assholes, I can run off and join the Carthians, or I can find religion and join the Sanctified, and so on... Do you see what I'm saying?
>>46077395
I think that you're inventing difficulties for yourself. Why would you choose to play as a Tremere who has no interest in magic, unless you wanted the story of breaking free of the pyramid? And if you want to be part of the pyramid, why would you play as a non-Tremere? There are options for Thaumaturgy beyond that clan, as I've mentioned.
I will say that I would strongly approve of a Setite ritual that enables them to alter the clan of a supplicant to become a Setite, as that's a religion as much as a clan and should be able to take converts.
>>46077395
i see your point. Also in VtM as a Bruja or Ventrue i'm stucked to a certain political ideology, while in VtR worldview and political opinion are determined by your Covenant, which acts as a political party/philosophical common ground.
>>46077502
No you're not. You can be a Brujah loyalist or Ventrue anarch, or even be one of them in the Sabbat.
If you Ascend you are removed from reality and become a concept. What happens to any children or descendants you have? What if your conception affected the lives of many in someway? Will reality rewrite itself as if you didn't exist? How about the butterfly effect?
>>46077564
Do you cease to exist or did you never exist?
>>46077512
However you are still defined by your adherence to your Clan or your lack of it.
>>46077466
You're focusing on the wrong part of what I'm saying here. The thing I don't like about VtM is that the Clans are the only real source of mechanical and social difference between characters. It's too binary - you're either a "typical" member of your Clan, or you're subverting Clan expectations; you're either a member of your Clan's organization, or you're a rogue. You're either a Ventrue, or a Ventrue Antribu; you can never become anything else because there ISN'T anything else, just your Clan and Sect (and there are only two sects, and they means a hell of a lot more than Covenant.)
In VtR, on the other hand, your character is defined far less by your Clan and far more by the associations that your character chooses for themselves. A Mekhet Acolyte is very different than a Mekhet Carthian (and, in the same way, a Mekhet Acolyte is different than a Nossie Acolyte, too.) It creates much more character variety.
>>46077582
As I recall imperial spells and Ascension are retroactive.
>>46077512
Yes, your existence is defined by whether you conform to your clan's expectations, or subvert them. Only Binaries in VtM.
>>46077622
>>46077582
>>46077564
I think it depends somewhat on HOW you ascend, but in general yes, your existence is erased (or at least changed) retroactively.
>>46077610
I would say that sect means far less than covenant. Pick two random Kindred of the Camarilla and the number of commonalities aside from "Kindred" and "Camarilla" will likely be small; it's a very broad umbrella. Cainites of the Sabbat may have somewhat more in common, but not by much, and of course independents aren't defined by sect at all.
>>46077466
>Why would you choose to play as a Tremere who has no interest in magic, unless you wanted the story of breaking free of the pyramid?
I played one of those, but that was because I wanted to go full-tilt on the idea that my Clan was one big ridiculous pyramid scheme.
Thaumaturgy has never appealed to me because it's always felt like watered-down Spheres. If I want to play a mage, I'll just play Mage.
>>46077693
>Pick two random Kindred of the Camarilla and the number of commonalities aside from "Kindred" and "Camarilla" will likely be small; it's a very broad umbrella. Cainites of the Sabbat may have somewhat more in common, but not by much
Right, but the difference between a member of the Camarilla and a member of the Sabbat is going to be BIG, and swapping from one to the other is a big deal.
>>46077938
Naturally, as the gulf is as wide as that between the All-Night Society and Belial's Brood. Indeed, the All-Night Society of Requiem is effectively the same as the Camarilla; it may have less unity, but it fills more or less the same purpose.
>>46072306
I wish Hotel Mascaron was canon.
>>46077582
You cease to exist, but your existence is now covered by Quiescence - any Sleepers who knew you will have their memories clouded, especially regarding what happened to you.
>>46078153
So your kids will still be around, but nobody will remember you and asking where their dad is will bring up some false memory of abandonment at youth?
>>46078153
Will mages and Sleepwalkers will still remember you after you ascend because they aren't subject to the Quiescence?
>>46078153
So for example my parents eloped to a small town because I was conceived when they were teens. So what will they remember as the reason the eloped and moved in town now that I Ascended?
>>46078246
Ostensibly, and if you Ascended via the Golden Road it should be trivial to turn your loved ones into Sleepwalkers before you go, if being remembered matters that much to you.
Or just project an Ochema back into the Phenomenal World and have it do it.
>>46078329
It is worth mentioning that the Golden Road Ascension is probably the least Wise method, as the entire thing is about reshaping the Phenomenal to fit your own vision for how it should be.
>>46078329
The problem then, though, being that they all remember someone who never existed, and will probably go insane trying to find this person
They might end up Awakening in the process, sure, but do you really wanna take that risk?
As a reference, see Homura in the movies
>>46078153
Damn, Ascension is a poisoned chalice. No wonder lichdom is appealing.
>>46076152
>this is actually worse than D&D's alignment system
you should be very careful when throwing around an accusation as heavy as this one, friend. The 2E morality systems are good though. They don't enforce a certain level of roleplaying so much as ensure that any roleplay that gets done has consequences, as these are horror games, it's a genre emulation thing. The most evil creatures in horror films are those that have no regard for human life or society, or no sense of empathy, and vampires start to lose Humanity when they exhibit these monstrous traits.
All of the 2E morality stats do cool thematic stuff like that, they're not nearly as hideous as D&D alignments.
>>46078434
The Quiescence alters the memories of sleepers.
Sleepwalkers will remember you as a mage who ascended, while sleepwalkers will remember you as dying suddenly, moving away and losing contact, etc.
If a particular sleepwalker didn't know about mages, it will certainly be a jarring and inconvenient to have different memories, but hardly insanity inducing. Considering all the weird and terrible stuff in the CofD, it's not too bad, particularly since the ascended mage still has opportunities to act in the Fallen World to communicate with or help the sleepwalker.
>>46078558
D&D morality doesn't dictate how you play.
WoD morality can. 2e Harmony is fucking clunky - I keep having to have my werewolf break character and eat people to try to get his Harmony down, and it still doesn't work because his Willpower score is too high.
>>46078608
>WoD morality can. 2e Harmony is fucking clunky - I keep having to have my werewolf break character and eat people to try to get his Harmony down, and it still doesn't work because his Willpower score is too high.
That's more about bad players than anything else.
There's plenty of easier ways to get your Harmony down.
>>46078592
>If a particular sleepwalker didn't know about mages, it will certainly be a jarring and inconvenient to have different memories
They wouldn't have different memories - they're not subject to quiescence whether they know about Mages or not.
>>46078641
Sleepwalkers will have different memories from sleepers. The Quiescence only changes the memories of sleepers.
>>46078608
>WoD morality can. 2e Harmony is fucking clunky - I keep having to have my werewolf break character and eat people to try to get his Harmony down
that's just powergaming
>>46078691
Oh, I read that as "different memories from before", not "different memories from Sleepers".
There's a WP 10 Sleeper in my Mage game that has that issue - his Resolve and Composure are so high that he's not subject to Quiescence, and he's convinced he's either insane or the people around him keep experiencing mass hallucinations.
I'm slightly upset that 2e is invalidating this guy unless we make him a Sleepwalker.
>>46078728
I would just allow him the one dot Sleepwalker Merit.
The merit provides few benefits, some downsides, and is hardly unbalancing in any way.
>>46078702
>Regularly committing horrible crimes that call the police down on your pack's head and cause loads of other problems because there aren't enough Spirit Breaking Points in the book, and most of the ones that are there are also Flesh Breaking Points
>Powergaming
>>46078608
>D&D morality doesn't dictate how you play.
ha ha
>>46078800
It fundamentally changes the concept on a metaphysical level, though.
He's not just a regular dude with an unusually resilient psyche anymore, now his inner eye is halfway open and he's seen partway through the Lie.
>>46078809
you're supposed to invent one or two breaking points for both spirit & flesh for yourself, although i wish they'd included a handy questionnaire for it like they have with the personal integrity breaking points.
Also certain things that come up in play can be breaking points. Recently in my Werewolf game, our teen Cahalith was forced into using his hunter's aspect on a mortal associate of his that was getting too close to the truth about werewolves, and we went & made that incident a breaking point towards spirit since it was a pretty seriously emotional moment where the character used his spiritual power to hurt a human friend.
My only real problem with the Harmony system in 2E is that the resolve+composure roll is too easy to succeed at.
>>46078809
Yes, you're breaking character for a game mechanic. You're not role-playing, oryou wouldn't be breaking character. You're power gaming, because you think some Harmony is best.
Not every werewolf is going to be at harmony 5, or even want to be. But you could just linger in the shadow for a long time, or use certain gifts, or just go on a sacred hunt to get a gift, these are all breaks towards the spirit.
>>46078909
>My only real problem with the Harmony system in 2E is that the resolve+composure roll is too easy to succeed at.
I think it's supposed to be weighted by DM modifiers, but they needed to explain that more. Might comeup in another book.
>>46078825
I'm glad that 2e is tightening and clarifying the setting and themes of Mage, including disassociating willpower from the Quiescence.
Although this might cause some issues converting 1e characters (and has Hunter fans near catatonic with depression and rage), I believe Dave's choices for 2e are undoubtedly a net positive.
>>46078935
yeah, i threw some negative modifiers at 'em for that roll in particular. But I think tying it to a pool roll instead of an arbitrary dicepool based on the severity of the breaking point ala Reqiuem Humanity would have been better, since it's a lot easier to slide up & down the Harmony scale(as intended) that way.
>>46078917
>Not every werewolf is going to be at harmony 5, or even want to be.
I dunno, the lack of extra Death Rage triggers is a pretty fucking powerful incentive.
So if you were going to make the Planeteers as Forsaken, which Planeteer would work best with which Totem Wolf? Gi is clearly a Storm Lord, just to get the out of the way.
You can get deluxe books for a while now
http://theonyxpath.com/press-release-onyx-path-limited-editions-now-available-through-indie-press-revolution/
>>46079047
The death rage triggers aren't even a hindrance except at the extremes
>>46079134
Why would you do that? The Planeteers make much more sense as Garou.
>>46079152
>The death rage triggers aren't even a hindrance except at the extremes
Maybe if your ST is exceptionally soft. Mine deliberately engineers situations where they'll come up.
>>46079047
>I dunno, the lack of extra Death Rage triggers is a pretty fucking powerful incentive.
Not really. It's part of the game.
I don't know why you and people like you look at a role playing game and thing stupid shit like that. Death rage? No! Must avoid at all costs! Dropping Humanity! I don't want my character to break!
Shit happens, it's a story, you're supposed to have fun with it, not be a tightass too afraid to take risks, you can leave that for real life if you're so uptight.
>>46079134
Linka makes much more sense as a Storm Lord
Kwame Hunter in Darkness
Wheeler Blood Talon
>>46079180
>Maybe if your ST is exceptionally soft. Mine deliberately engineers situations where they'll come up.
That's what he's supposed to be doing.
Your character is supposed to deal with it the way your character would. Not be powergamed out of the game.
If this were a video game you're essentially using a cheat code to avoid the challenges of the game.
>>46079164
Wait...I'm talking about the Forsaken Totem Wolves in relation to the protagonists of Captain Planet, what are you talking about?
>>46079246
>If this were a video game you're essentially using a cheat code to avoid the challenges of the game.
maybe a strategy guide would be more fitting?
>>46079251
I was talking about the werewolves from Apocalypse.
>>46079246
Bullshit. Said character is just being pragmatic about a terrifying danger.
>>46079224
So would Ma-Ti be an Iron Master or a Bone Shadow?
>>46079246
I'd just like it if there were more options that aren't "break the Oath of the Moon and make a penalized roll to break toward Flesh" or "abandon your pack and fuck off into the Hisil for a month".
Breaking toward Spirit is HARD. Certainly a hell of a lot harder than the devs seemed to think.
>>46079296
>I was talking about the werewolves from Apocalypse.
Ah, I was talking about WtF, I can see that there has been a bit of a mix up.
>>46079296
>Bullshit. Said character is just being pragmatic about a terrifying danger.
The character isn't, the player is.
>>46079363
There are. Doing a spirit hunt against a spirit and getting a gift for it. Using some gifts (iron/animal slave), totemic empowerment, death raging
>>46079363
Friendly reminder that you're supposed to define a character-specific Breaking Point towards Flesh and Spirit(one each) during character creation
I don't blame you for not knowing, it's hidden in the middle of the info on breaking points, instead of somewhere logical like the character creation section
>>46079363
Let me guess, you are the kind of guy that whines about how easy it is to lose sanity in CoC and always plays Chaotic Neutral in D&D.
Shit happens to characters. In CofD, Mortals are meant to lose Integrity and amass permanent Conditions, Vampire players are meant to have fun watching their PC lose their Humanity, part of the intended fun of Werewolf is watching them become unbalanced, and a core part of the fun in Mage is meant to be watching your PC become an ever more hubristic fuck as he dives towards Wisdom 0.
CofD doesn't provide those shiny Integrity alikes with the intention that you keep them up/balanced. The fun in CofD is meant to be in losing/unbalancing them. If you powergame that hard to keep your Harmony balanced you should just play a different game or houserul Harmony away entirely.
>>46079579
What if the unthinkable happens and a player happens to enjoy the challenge of keeping their Humanity/Wisdom up?
>>46079579
>Let me guess, you are the kind of guy that whines about how easy it is to lose sanity in CoC and always plays Chaotic Neutral in D&D.
No?
>part of the intended fun of Werewolf is watching them become unbalanced
The problem is this keeps *not happening* because the dicepool is too large. The one time I successfully dropped toward Spirit in this game, I then had to roll toward Flesh because it was a breach of the Oath of the Moon, and ended up right back at starting Harmony.
2e Harmony is the single most static Integrity analog I've encountered.
>>46079608
Same as always happens when a player finds their fun in a playstyle that isn't really supported by the game.
It's not badwrongfun, but it'll take a lot of work for ST and Player to make the fun work.
>>46079608
then they wouldn't be breaking character to do it
but your character is not infallible, and them losing humanity/wisdom does not mean they are ruined, it just means you have to get it back (providing that's still a priority_
>>46079628
why not just have a sacred hunt against a human enemy?
>>46079643
Special work like what?
>>46079644
The trouble is that every point you lose is a point you have to spend XP to get back.
>>46079676
you said
> a player happens to enjoy the challenge of keeping their Humanity/Wisdom up?
how is it a chalenge if you never challenge yourself or your character? what you're describing is not enjoying a challenge, it's avoiding a challenge entirely
also thankfully all that shit is much cheaper in 2e
>>46079667
>why not just have a sacred hunt against a human enemy?
I've tried that a few times. I keep passing the roll.
>>46079779
Can't you voluntarily fail rolls like that?
>>46079799
Harmony rolls?
No.
You can't voluntarily fail rolls you'd normally be trying to fail.
>>46079779
your character is very adamant, maybe you should just roll with it
>>46079779
Then your character's just a naturally balanced person. Roll with it and find another source of horror for the character.
