I had an argument with my sister. She is of the opinion that teenagers shouldn't be forced to learn math if they don't want to, and that anything above Algebra 1 or possibly Geometry is "useless" for regular people. Does she have a point? I disagree with her, but I can't honestly prove that a regular person will ever need to use Calculus in his day-to-day life.
fourier analysis is useful for shelf-stacking
not that the person doing the stacking is aware of that, but still
>>7969832
I guess we all just aspire to be more than regular people. The choice is still up to her though.
>>7969832
She's absolutely right. Unless she goes into STEM, she's pretty much never gonna need any substantial mathematical knowledge anytime in her life.
>>7969832
Ask her about other useless things she does, like play iPhone games, read books, watch movies/tv, ect...
At least math would make you a little smarter and train your ability to think abstractly
>>7969832
The kind of logical reasoning that you use in Algebra (and arguably all math) is as useful in day to day life as knowing how to walk. Sure, you could just sit around on a scooter all day and get where you need to go, and sure, you could just sit in one place and not do anything. But having the skill to walk gives you so much more freedom and power, so why would you ever want to deny yourself that skill?
>>7969832
The answer isn't important, what matter is how you solve it, math is abstract, you're just teaching logic. Logic can help anyone at any time.
>>7969832
Literally took me 5 seconds to answer the question from your pic in my head and I've only just learned trig in the past week.
I refuse to believe there are people who cannot do things like this.
>>7969874
>only just learned trig in the past week
Are you 15
>>7969885
Isn't Kyouko 15?
>>7969832
1.) 45-45-90 triangle, out of pure guess because one leg has a measure of 10 and the hypotenuse is 20 which resembles much of 2*leg_measure
2.) 10, because the legs are congruent. in a 45-45-90 triangle.
>>7969909
Do these legs look like they are congruent to you?
Angle A is 60° because arccos(20/10). Angle B is 30° because 180-120. BC is 20xcos30°/sen60°=17.32 or 10√3
>>7969909
Really anon?
>>7969885
No. I'm in my early 20s and learning math from scratch.
Learning math inadvertently teaches you how to think. Plus, doing higher math is important because often it is posted as a requirement in many programs to weed out the dumbasses and every Tom Dick & Harry. If you can do math, you most likely have the ability to do many other things or have the ability to learn many new things.
>>7969919
I could have just used the good ol' pythagorean formula to find BC though. I'm stupid.
>>7969832
Regular people are boring and never think outside the box. That much can be seen from going to one of their parties or clubs where the highlights are shit-tier but socially acceptable drugs (alcohol and weed), nigger music, and beer pong. They enjoy doing the same old shit. It's up to you to make the case for throwing regular people, like your sister, into the gladiator arena and take part in a battle royale like so:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPbTWDeqQf0
This is the only way anyone will walk away happy from this discussion.
>>7969852
reading books and even watching movies and tv can also make you smarter and train your ability to think abstractly. (assuming its decent stuff). youre not that smart if you've not read the canon of literature, just like if you cant do maths and science
>>7969922
Cool, do not give up mate
>>7969909
>guaranteed replies
>>7969832
To be quite frank, at some point in elementary education (let's say after geometry) I think mandatory math should be abolished and get replaced by mandatory logic classes.
>>7969832
I guess it shouldn't be mandatory, but having even basic knowledge of maths helps in every area of life. My girlfriend is absolute trash at math and was taking a marketing statistics class last semester that she was struggling through and the math was so simple that I ended up teaching her a few concepts in an afternoon that got her an A on the final. Pure maths (at lower levels obviously) are pretty simple, simple enough that she could learn what I taught her and apply it to the rest of the course. Rather than trying to understand applications immediately on the fly as most of those courses are taught.
I make anywhere from $40-60 an hour tutoring business majors through their finance/econ/stat classes now -- and I'm not even a maths student. I just put up some fliers I made on InDesign and I get a new customers every week. I've never taken a business course in my life, so I ask them to send me areas they need specific help in and I glance over it on Wikipedia for a bit first then the money comes rolling in. You guys should try it.
>>7969832
>She is of the opinion that teenagers shouldn't be forced to learn math if they don't want to
No
and that anything above Algebra 1 or possibly Geometry is "useless" for regular people.
Depends honestly. Sure, regular as in minimum wage if you want to generalize thus, but it depends on what the hell you want to do with your life
>>7969922
Did you drop out of high school or something? Not flaming just curious. I feel like everyone learns trig in high school
>>7970149
I didn't physically drop out, but I did drop out mentally and emotionally. Though I did have a low attendance rate. I didn't even know how to do long division after leaving high school.
>>7969844
Agree, but you can say that about a lot of subjects taught in high school. Almost all of STEM is useless to someone not in those fields. Very few remember the foreign language they studied to any useful degree. Huge chunks of History will never be brought to mind again. The list goes on. For most people, if "useful in life" is the criterion, then they would be done after grade school.
There is no evidence that doing well in math correlates to magically being good at something else.
I actually bought and am currently working through the Math Myth by Andrew Hacker (which I guess is what brought up this discussion). The core argument is that our obsession with math is causing harm in other fields, not that math isn't useful.
On some level I agree that math really shouldn't be forced on people who aren't going to use it (other than basic skills to "solve for x" which everyone should know) but I also think that we should be giving high schoolers more choices about their classes, beyond just what APs to take.
Every high school should provide some sort of program, whether it be in IT, medical, law, business, etc that students can join at some point in their career (probably around sophomore/junior year) and finish with some sort of certification.
It's a shame when we cut off potential students in one field because of the relatively arbitrary hurdle of math. The solution is not to dumb down the curriculum or remove the challenge. The solution is to take the hurdle and make it more relative to what a person thinks they're good at. i.e. You wouldn't make a swimmer do the long jump, but instead make him take laps around the pool.
Here's my idea:
Say a student thinks they might want to be a doctor and their school offers these programs (specifically a program for people interested in the medicine). Now they have their normal high school curriculum to complete (and hopefully earn their diploma) however some of it has been modified. With less mandatory classes, you replace that time with a program that prepares you to take the gna (or some medical test). If they don't like it, they really don't need to be too pressured because the high school curriculum is side-by-side and they can still get their diploma (and then move on to college). If they stick with it, then they have a head start in their field.
Essentially, make high school like college.
>>7969832
Compound interest on her credit card, loans and mortgages. Personal finance is a good avenue, it is a good argument, the math is not as simple as it first appears.
she's sort of right. calculus is literally one new concept. people who struggle with calculus are actually struggling with algebra and trig because they fucked around and got a C in the class or just plug n chegg'd their way through.
so if people came out of algebra actually having some level of mathematical maturity and an increased ability to think quantitatively, then she'd be right.
but most people brain dump all that shit the minute the class is over and grow up into adults who can barely do basic arithmetic.
>>7969956
I'm not saying reading's useless, it probably would be by her definitions though. I should have put "useless" in quotes
Algebra 1 and Geometry are honestly just about as much as a non-STEM person will need to get through life.
>>7970612
>the Math Myth
>by Andrew Hacker
Opinion immediately discarded
>>7970212
Why the change of heart?
>>7970687
>Plug n chegg
I like u anon
>>7969832
She's right, but after 8th grade English you shouldn't be required to take anymore useless humanities.
>>7971397
Very long story, but in short, I've decided to get an education. Not that far from uni now. Have calc and a few other things to get through.
>>7969832
>We're still cramming maths past trigonometry to high school students
>We're still producing adults who can't deduce logical fallacies in literally every communications medium
>We're still teaching watered down calculus in high school
Calculus and beyond should be reserved for in-depth classes in college. End of story. We should be teaching kids logic instead of the worthless AP bullshit.
>>7971570
>taken out of school for home tutoring due to social anxiety
>re-learning math from scratch due to interest and chronic insecurity over being a "plebby" literature and debate enthusiast
>the whole society of literature is full of people with no grasp of logical fallacies
>purging sins one problem at a time
It's going well so far for me. Good look, anon.
>>7971578
We need real niggas during real nigga hours and not pussy logicians
>>7971387
But that piece is what has reinvigorated this argument of "hurr Durr y do I need math?" If you're going to argue something, you should at least know what you're arguing. Hacker makes many arguments in his book, and many of them I disagree with, (such as the SAT is sexist because women tend to do worse on timed tests) but the central core argument is that forcing math on people who won't need it does more harm than good. I agree with that, to an extent, as it seems most in this thread do too.
Other than that, yeah, the book is pretty meh. I don't know how I feel about him including math questions every so often that are meant to be difficult, but really aren't.
>>7969832
>She is of the opinion that teenagers shouldn't be forced to learn math if they don't want to
She have a point but she's just a spoiled shitkid.
Education should, from day 1, be narrowly focused towards an employment spectrum.
She should be taught diet, fitness, dancing and gymnastics instead so she can be a successful stripper or prostitute instead.
>>7969909
Here's your >you.
Now fuck off.
>>7970212
>I didn't even know how to do long division after leaving high school.
Neither do I and I'm a mechanical engineering major
