I would like to study math here following my undergrad. I plan on not taking the entrance exam, and instead applying with the personal package. I am currently enrolled in an honours math program at a top 15 university. I have 3.95/4.00 GPA and pretty extensive research experience+publications. What mathematics topics are necessary? What else can I do to beef up my application? Do I even stand a remote chance of getting an interview?
To keep it /sci/ related, also general discussion of the entrance exam. Here's a sample exam:
http://www.ens.fr/IMG/file/concours/2014/BCPST/14_sujet_bcpst_math.pdf
>>7969048
you link a subject for biology students.
what do you study and what do you want to do ?
>>7969052
Oh really? That test is math for bio students? I may be worse off than I thought then.
I have been involved mostly in combinatorics and graph theory projects including the Bruhat graph combinatorics and forbidden Berge subgraphs problems. I have also been involved in a few projects in mathematical biology and one in space physics. I hope to study pure math at ENS. I would like to study rings but I don't have experience in this area beyond my coursework
>>7969052
wait what do bio students even need math for?
>>7969065
Real question is what do bio students need /that/ math for?
>>7969065
Mapping genomes to phenotype expressions, particularly those relating to disease?
>>7969065
Models. Lots and lots of models. God so many fucking models.
>>7969060
>I hope to study pure math at ENS
it is nearly impossible already to get into an ENS when doing pure math, so unless you have publications in mathematics while you study biology on the side, you cannot do pure math at an ENS even on personal file (instead of a the official test).
you can take look at the manuscripts here
https://www.math.ens.fr/enseignement/archives_pedagogiques.html?type=1
if you wish to study groups, get the book algebra by serge lang.
>>7969102
Thank you for the info. I have only studied three years of french so I've been having a little trouble finding reliable info that I understand. I really appreciate the help. Did you study/do you study at ENS?
>>7969048>>7969119
anyway, this is the process of application
http://www.ens.fr/admission/selection-internationale/article/session-2016?lang=en
so if you want to become a student in pure matha the ENS of paris, you must prove that you are basically a pure math student beforehand, or a science students and have math article published (which means that you are a mathematician studying biology or science (dieudonné defines a mathematician as a person who published a theorem with a new proof :D)).
I have studied at an ENS, but not paris and not as a official student.
you can probably apply to other universities for pure math, if, once more, you can demonstrate your ability at math (so article published or a pure math degree with good grades)
>>7969126
Thank you.
How selective would you say the admissions process is? Obviously very selective, but do I actually stand a chance or should I just focus on Cambridge/MIT etc.? I have coauthored a paper in pure math as well as one in math/bio and one in space phys. Is the application even worth my time or will they reject me outright?
>>7969133
for the pure math program, the admission is through the personal file (but no financial help form the ENS (even though you can have financial help from other sources)) OR the selection of pure foreign students (where you are paid like the french students)
http://www.math.ens.fr/enseignement/Trois-possibilites.html
for the difficulty: they claim to take 30 foreign students a year (=those who are paid) plus the few students (french or not) who are not paid.
Your problem is that you want to do pure math whereas, whatever your grades, your degree is not pure math. So your articles are clearly a bonus and if they are high level math with breakthrough mathematical theorems, you can clearly hope that it compensates your lack of relevant degree.
You must show that you master the program which is required to pass the exam. your problem is that what demonstrates your mastery of the program is the diploma in pure math, which you have not.
the program is what the pure math students in license L2 do, or what the students in pure math preparatory schools do (MP students)
here is plenty of links for preparatory schools (pure math (MP), physics-chemistry (PC), biology (BCPST))
http://spoirier.lautre.net/liensmaths.html#prepa
for instance directly, a few teachers offer their notes:
[MPSI is the first year of preparatory school in pure math, MP is second year]
http://asoyeur.free.fr/mp2/index.html
so look at the pdfs and look if you are at ease with the math.
>>7969170
I do not know the business of conversion with GPA, but a gross estimate is If your grades are good, meaning you are, at worst, in the top five (if not top three, if not the first) of your class (more importantly in your pure math class) and your school is not rubbish and you have good letters of recommendation. Since you do not do a math degree, the letters must be from your math teachers (or famous scientists who do math) and they must claim that you are able to understand the pure math program above (expected from the french students in order to be a candidate to the concours) and that they are confidant that you are able to and will follow the course at the ENS and not drop out.
as an aside, since you know graph theory, the ENS Lyon does a course on graph theory, but as a course for last year of the degree, which means that there are mathematician here who does graph theory. Perhaps you can write to the two persons in the following page, and ask them if your file is acceptable to be enrolled at lyon, as a foreign students, instead of Paris.
http://perso.ens-lyon.fr/eric.thierry/Graphes2010/
After looking at the page for the ENS at lyon,
http://www.ens-lyon.fr/en/admissions-at-a-glance-271377.kjsp?RH=TEMP-INTER-EN&RF=1440663599734
you can find other ways to get into and ENS through a potential partenariat with your university and some ENS, as an exchange students.
THe ENS of Cachan, near Paris but not Paris, as some scholarship for americans
http://www.ens-cachan.fr/version-francaise/international/accords-et-partenariats/programmes-specifiques/programme-de-bourses-ens-cachan-fulbright-2017-2018-67814.kjsp?RH=ZYZYZYZYZYZYZYZYZYZYZY
http://www.ens-cachan.fr/version-anglaise/admissions/
>>7969170
>>
> the program is what the pure math students in license L2 do, or what the students in pure math preparatory schools do (MP students)
>here is plenty of links for preparatory schools (pure math (MP), physics-chemistry (PC), biology (BCPST))
>http://spoirier.lautre.net/liensmaths.html#prepa
>for instance directly, a few teachers offer their notes:
>[MPSI is the first year of preparatory school in pure math, MP is second year]
>http://asoyeur.free.fr/mp2/index.html
>so look at the pdfs and look if you are at ease with the math.
here is a better site with explicitly the math program of the pure math preparatory school
http://mp.cpgedupuydelome.fr/courspe.php
look at all this maths, see if you understand it, then see if you can get a proof that you understand it, like some diploma after enrolling in some pure math course (even for one year, which would delay your application by one year) after you convinced an american university to enrol you in some math degree.
My conclusion is that you should do a math degree as fast as you can, even at an undergraduate level, with your typical undergraduate math in it, in one year and have good grades for this, to show that you are able to understand math outside graph theory.
If you can, you could jut do the relevant math courses and have grades for this, instead of spending time with the courses about physics and computers.
But this is after you talk to whoever is the director of the pure math degree, to see if you can attend only the courses relevant to the application (algebra and analysis) and be graded only for this.
Plus some letters of recommendation from your math teachers or scientists who are the most able in math.
Your publications are a clear bonus, so with the letters and the relevant baby courses with good grades, you become a strong candidate for Paris, and the other two ENS.
Without the pure math courses, I cannot say anything for Paris as a fully financed foreign students.
I add that it is not the end of the world to go to a ENS which is not Paris. :D
>>7969048
Entrance exam is nearly impossible for foreign students generally so don't take it.
For general admission advice I think >>7969194 said everything. Good grades + recommandation letters + make sure you master the program...
Having already a list of publication is a huge extra :)
>>7969207
Well, the 3 ENS (Paris, Lyon, Cachan) are excellent. Paris is a bit better, but in the end there's not a big difference : during the undergrad, you have to choose one program in France and usually there are guys from the 3 ENS so it doesn't really matter which one you go to.
Note that the campus of Cachan is beyond shitty (really)... But they will move to a new one in 1 or 2 years (at Saclay, with Polytechnique). Lyon is pretty cool.
>>7969048
>bcpst
Lol'd
bump bfore bed
I reflected further on the situation. here is what I would do, knowing nothing of the american system:
-this year, contact directly the directors of the admissions of the three ENS
tell them what you are now, what you want and ask them if you have chance
-if they say no, do not bother applying
-if they say maybe, apply, you never know
-apply also to the american universities
-if you are denied in at each ENS, choose your favourite US uni
-the first year at the US uni, do a course in algebra (finite matrices) and in analysis (infinite series, PDE) no need for probabilities, along your normal courses
-get good grades at this
-next year, apply again to each ENS, this time mentioning your good grades in pure math+ articles+letters+your past candidacy to show your interest in the ENS
-if you are chosen at a ENS, ditch the US uni
This is what I tried to get into an ENS, doing a math degree on the side of my physics degree, even if it takes me one more year. Turns out I am too lazy to do both and I went full physics.
>>7969709
I really appreciate all your help, anon. It's been next to impossible to find good reliable info on that application. Thanks again
>>7969921
so what math do you know currently ?
>>7969133
ENS is harder to get into than any other university I know. You'll get accepted to Cambridge and MIT before ENS.
>>7970892
Obviously all the basics, linear algebra, diffy q's, calc I-IV, etc. In terms of upper year classes I've done intro to rings and modules, probability I, real and complex analysis I and II, abstract algebra I and a course in linear programming/optimization.
>>7971030
Yeah. I strongly feel I could get into Princeton, Cambridge etc. with my background. I also strongly feel I wouldn't get into ENS at least with my current experience level.
Just so you know,
Pure graph theory in France is considered as a CS topic so if that's what you want to do yo should probably go to Princeton/MIT/oxford/cambridge etc.
Another good option is to go to ENS Lyon in Math and go talk to the graph team there which is probably the best in france.
>>7969048
What uni do you go to? Just curious.
>>7971041
>Obviously all the basics, linear algebra, diffy q's, calc I-IV, etc. In terms of upper year classes I've done intro to rings and modules, probability I, real and complex analysis I and II, abstract algebra I and a course in linear programming/optimization.
this is fairly nice and equate what is more than what is expected from the french students, so if the grades follow, you have a chance for an ENS.
in your candidacy, do not hesitate to explain quickly the mathematics in your theorems in graph theory, to show them how good you are at mathematics.
>>7971270
Interesting information. The impression I am getting though is that I probably shouldn't try to study pure math. So perhaps I will try to study something more applied
>>7971280
I would rather not say because simply googling the university and undergrad graph theory will come up with lots on me. Sorry, I'm just paranoid and I'd rather not have my photo posted in this thread. I study in America though. I am originally from Canada.
>>7971299
>>7971308
Great. I heard that the french only study two years before going to ENS, so I should have a little extra experience, having studied math for 3.5yrs by the end of my undergrad.
>>7969048
Just curious, but how did you manage to publish extensively as an undergraduate?
I'm studying at a top 5, and I'm going to be studying at Princeton next year; plenty of people around me seem to figure out how to get publications out, but for the life of me I haven't been able to have the opportunity until my very last semester.
Also, props for staying on top of your classes and keeping your GPA up. I did a lot of stupid things during my undergrad (got engaged, broke up, started to chase girls, neglected to study), and my GPA slipped from 4.0 + freshman/sophomore year to my current ~3.85. I'm obviously not screwed, but a high GPA will give you more opportunities.
>>7971332
>I would rather not say because simply googling the university and undergrad graph theory will come up with lots on me. Sorry, I'm just paranoid and I'd rather not have my photo posted in this thread. I study in America though. I am originally from Canada.
That's fine, just wanted to know if you go to UChicago. Butl I'd say that it's pretty impressive that googling "undergrad graph theory" would come up with lots on you.
>>7971335
This. I'd like to see some of your work.
>>7971332
>Interesting information. The impression I am getting though is that I probably shouldn't try to study pure math. So perhaps I will try to study something more applied
If you want to study computer science, I'll tell you to go to ENS of Lyon. They are way more welcoming of foreign student than in Math and the courses are very good.
>>7971334
This is partly why I'm glad my school isn't "top top" tier. I would imagine Princeton would be very competitive in terms of obtaining research positions. The key for me was to get in early. Within one month at uni I was volunteering in a mathematica microbiology lab. My friends made fun of me for being a sucker and volunteering without anything in return. They weren't laughing when I got consecutive research grants every summer and paid position every year during the term. So you might need to volunteer at first to get some experience. Don't mind the people who will make fun of you for this. It's all about getting your foot in the door. Once you have a strong background in research, profs will line up to have you work with them. And in terms of GPA, 3.85 is still considered high. What is that, almost all A+'s, a few A's and one or two A-'s?
>>7971335
I'm not by any means "impressive" or well-recognized in the math community. My school just has a page with undergrad researchers in the math department and it is pretty clear who I am hahaha. Part of a summer grant was writing up a testimonial on my experience for the university, so that comes up first, not any of my actual research. If you're interested in some of the topics I have researched, here is a short and readable paper discussing a problem I have done work with in the past:
http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.157.6316&rep=rep1&type=pdf
>>7971348
I heard from a professor that it's easiest to study math given my limited french. Is this true, or would I be able to study computer science without having strong french language skills?
>>7971351
Nice. I'll be sure to check it out. May I ask why you want to go to ENS specifically? Why not try for a top US grad programme? They'd probably be even more reputable than ENS.
>>7971351
I get a lot of A+es and A's, and then I get moody in certain classes and pull B's.
Two semesters ago, my grade report literally looked something like A+, A, A+, A, B, B.
Mind you, one of those classes was headed by a professor that did not give one shit that his TAs half-assed grading assignments, and the other had an Indian accent so thick I couldn't audibly distinguish between when he'd say "tree" or "trie" and held "open-laptop but closed-internet" tests.
I've since pulled my shit together; my most recent grades have been back to their old 4.0 mark. As for the research thing, I've found that I basically have to propose my own research at this school to get anywhere.
>>7971357
Are you transferring to Princeton or is that for Grad school? Where are you currently studying?
>>7971354
My impression is just that ENS is a very freeing and stimulating environment. Just look at their number of fields medalists. I also feel it is more prestigious in academia than any american grad school. I agree that Harvard would be better if I wanted to go into industry, but I want to be an academic, and I get the impression that the environment at ENS would do a better job of developing my skills in this area.
>>7971353
At Lyon in CS you have 1 year to finish a license(l3) because prep school counts as l1 and l2 and 2 years to do a Master. The l3 is in french I think but I am sure that the master is in english and you can apply for just the master.
>>7971357
Well that's still a solid transcript, especially given the quality of your school.
I've been lucky in that I've never really had to propose my own research. But I also have had a lot of fortunate opportunities where I've spoken with the right person at the right time. I also haven't been that choosy. I know many math students who would scoff at math-bio or math-phys, while I have always swallowed my pride and accepted these positions.
>>7971360
you want to do a phd ?
>>7971366
Sorry, I should have clarified, that's not my research. I was just giving an example of subject matter I have worked on. My publications are comparable, if a little more ambitious than that, although I should also say I was not first author on any of them, obviously.
>>7971365
Perfect. I am quite embarrassed by my french and if I had to produce proofs and works in french that would be a slow process. The english masters makes more sense, given that
>>7971370
I think I will have to do a PhD. I'm not in any rush, however. I don't have debt, so I am happy to stay in school for as long as I feel it takes to get a good education.
>>7971359
I'm graduating this year and going to Princeton next year for grad school. I study computer science, on the fence about choosing systems, graph theory, complexity theory, or artificial intelligence as a research area.
My interests are pretty broad; as a point of reference, the current work I'm trying to get published involves introducing new protocols that leverage a relatively new flavor of encryption to solve a few outlying problems in systems security. As an example, it allows me to use a broadcast-based control scheme that would allow for improved intrusion prevention by embedding hard instances of graph problems in the topology of a distributed system.
I haven't been able to find a definite answer, will it make a difference in employment opportunities if I get a BA instead of a BS in statistics? The math and stats requirements are exactly the same, it's just that I would have to take additional chemistry and physics classes, which I'm not a big fan of and don't appear to relate to my major.
>>7971384
OP here. I would get the BSc hands down. I had the option of doing either as well, and I was strongly advised to take the BSc route, even though I knew chemistry would bring down my GPA (and it did). Having a BSc of any kind is an asset. Especially if you're going into industry and you are going to be interviewed by someone who has no idea what they're talking about when it comes to academics. They will see "BSc" and will respond better to it.
>>7971388
I was expecting to hear that, I guess I'll just have to suck it up and go for the extra physics and chem. You think it would matter that much for a purely math degree?
>>7971393
I think it matters, especially if you're not ending up in academics. If you want to be an academic it matters less, because the people evaluating you know more about the system. But for industry, I think a candidate with a BSc & 3.7 GPA will get hired over a candidate with a BA & 4.0 GPA. People see BSc and go "STEM, instantly more valuable/harder than BA".
>>7971376
Nice. Any tips on how to get into accepted into a grad programme at a place like Princeton? And if you don't mind, could you tell me where you currently go?
One last comment,
If you are good in math but don't have a specific field you have in mind, it might be good not to choose the most prestigious fields.
The level required to have a carier in geometric algebra and in graph is not the same at all. And if you go down to biologie/ applied stuff it gets even easier.
>>7971399
Honestly, I have no idea what I did that convinced Princeton to accept me. I did have a recommendation from a relatively famous guy in the area of compilers who was advised by a Turing winner when he himself studied at Princeton; that'd probably be the pivotal factor if I had to put my finger on it.
As for where I go, I'll say that it's one of Harvard, Yale, Columbia, or Stanford.
>>7971930
Gee I wonder if that helped...
You got admitted 100% because of that.
>>7969048
that exam looks absurdly easy.
>>7971954
It was intended for bio students, many of whom know jackshit about math.
I'm exaggerating, of course, but I prepped one of my bio friends in math (who ranked very high at the entrance test and ranked consistently 1st in math throughout his two years of "prepa") and he was clearly not on the same level as good math students (nor should he have been, imo)
Bio students have about half as many hours as math students so it's not surprising that their math exam should be easier.
