What does /sci/ think of alternate medicine?
>>7941261
placebo
>>7941261
We don't think about it.
The bosrd is for science and math, not mystical woo.
>>7941261
It's a good thing that it exists. Dumb fucks can be weeded out of the population by their own choice.
Alternate medicine has its name for a reason, it's medicine that does not work for shit.
>>7941287
But it isn't only dumb fucks who go for it. The quacks prey on the desperate too. Do they deserve no treatment, or worse, harmful concoctions because they are scared?
>>7941303
Unfortunately, it's their choice to take 'alternative' medicine. Noone is forcing them. The studies and common sense are there... Nothing can be done for those who have access to western medicine but choose alternative medicine, even if they are desperate.
>>7941307
>Nothing can be done
What about some form of restrictions on quacks and their snake oil?
>>7941261
what makes medicine "alternate"
you know the body of pharmaceuticals is built on folk remedies? you think some guy in a lab coat just accidentally the whole willow bark? "real" macrobiotic medicine does nothing but isolate compounds from old "alternate" medicine
>>7941313
There would be a huge outrage by quacks and those who support it, on grounds of 'the government denies healthcare', which is a very sensitive topic. More importantly, just because we believe it is wrong to even allow it doesn't mean it should happen. Democracy works on what the people want. The people that do not take alternative medicine do not care about it, and the people that do, want it. If a restriction was passed, you have just pissed off the people that want it, even if it is better for them in the long term. In other words, not gonna happen.
>>7941261
>Alternate medicine
I prefer direct medicine.
Fucking retarded
>get a leaf
>amazing, cures everything
>get same leaf
>put into pill form
>gives you aids and cancer
>>7941315
The difference being:
Alternate medicine
>here take this herb that is sometimes effective
>also I have no idea how it works, how much you actually need, what other cogenners there may be, etc.
Natural Products Chemistry
>this herb has featured prominently in materia medica
>let's study it heavily and find its active compiund(s)
>now that we have the compound let's learn it's mechanism, derivative it, study it's pharmodynamics, and determine most effective doses
>>7941261
Might as well if it doesn't interfere with treatment or negatively affect health
Most results will probably be placebo though
A scam, no more. I have to say there are documented cases were it works, even an instance the mayo clinic wanted to get involved but the little shit didn't open his methods to rigorous medical examination. Medicine is medicine that works.
>>7941261
Alternative medicine may encompass *some* effective treatments (willow bark, coco leaves, etc), but these have all been used by pharmaceutical companies to synthesize highly effective drugs. Ones who are racemically pure, have functional groups which aid bioavailability, speed up pharmacokinetics, and a whole lot more. Insisting on using alternative/herbal medicine is like using a flinstone's style car instead of a modern one and trying to get it up to speed on the interstate.
People in developed areas who put faith in alternative medicine do so out of some misguided distrust in pharmaceutics/western medicine -- and they like to tout it as if they're better and smarter than others who take advantage of western med... which is beyond aggravating.
>>7941377
you fall under the same category you critiqued. let us remember that we've survived thus far thanks exactly to what we would not call "alternate" medicine. and let us cast aside the hubris that allows us to think that what we practice today wont be called "alternate" medicine in only a few decades.
using relativism to justify an ego is a poor course to follow
If by alternate medicine one means herbal supplements, then there's evidence that most herbal supplements work for the ailments which they're prescribed for.
Most herbs prevent illness. To say they're worthless is entirely false (and fyi, Most herbs DO prevent illness).
What other types of alternate medicines might you be referring to, OP?
>>7941392
You are being scamed bro
>>7941403
Sssh don't tell them that! You could've profited off from him by selling this hippie crap.
>>7941388
Hahaha... nice bait.
>>7941403
Try it for yourself before blindly following what the pharmaceutical industry tells you. Those who say that alternate medicine does not work are the same people who refuse to try it.
>but muh pills
enjoy your cancer
You know what they call alternative medicine that works? medicine
>>7941416
Nigger please, I know my personal experience is worth jack shit.
>>7941419
This sounds like a meme but it really is true. There are many cases were indigenous shit has been used by medicine to cure important shit.
>>7941416
Why are double blind studies unable to confirm the efficacy of the woo you're pushing?
Diseases are a meme. Medicine shouldn't even exist. We are halting the process of natural selection by keeping people alive who should be dead. Why do we have so many retards hooked up to machines just to suffer, they clearly should not be alive. We are allowing the gene pool to stagnate by continuing like this. I don't support medicine. Never took it, and I never will. Haven't gotten sick either, because I don't eat bullshit food that gives you cancer. If I have to die, then I will, it was how it was meant to happen.
>>7941363
>lets take it's "active compound" out of the context of its interactions with all the other compounds that might be there. Because we're scientists and we know better than nature.
>>7941435
>{edginess intensifies}
>>7941438
Why people think like this? Isn't le blak suice man supposedly working on this shit?
>>7941438
Your statement can also be written as...
>lol purified water, let's take the "active compound" out of the context of its interactions because the heavy metals in ppm traces play an important role in our system and we're scientists who know better than nature
>>7941430
What studies are you referring to? There are alternative medicines which don't work, and there are those that do. You can't group them into a general category. These different plants literally have different compounds within them, to say that all alternative medicine is fake is to say that the modern medicine which is derived from the alternative medicine is also fake. Why is it that native tribes which lived thousands of miles apart used the same plants to cure the same ailments? Because they noticed that the plants had an effect on that specific disease.
And also, if some of it is a placebo, so what? It just shows that the power of the mind is greater than what we are able to comprehend. By telling people something is fake and a placebo you are taking away the chance for them to benefit from something which can potentially cure them.
>>7941438
Agree with this. How can we isolate a compound and claim it is more effective than the whole plant? Sometimes I think science is holding us back because it demands PROOF for everything. But we as humans know so little about everything, there are probably so many mechanisms we are unaware of, interactions between the plant and us. Why can't we just accept that the plant is good for such and such ailment, and leave it at that. We don't have to prove anything to anyone, all we need to know is the plant, and its ability to cure a specific illness.
There is much about alternative medicine that works, and there is much that doesn't. There are systems which are thousands of years old, eg Chinese medicine including acupuncture; there are systems which have extremely medicalised and rational degree-and-beyond level training, eg Osteopathy; there are systems which have obvious physical reasons for their efficacy, eg herbalism. And yet there are some obnoxious little shits in this thread who think that because they are science undergrads they know how the world works. The arrogance of children.
>>7941444
WTF are you talking about? Make sense, dick.
>>>7941363
>>Because we're scientists and we know better than nature.
Fuck off hippy
>>7941479
>he just refuted me therefore I'll pretend to be retarded Xddddd
just kill yourself already oh wait those herbs treated with arsenic as "organic pesticide" are already accelerating it, nvm
>>7941448
why are you responding in earnest to the facebook degree scientists here? let them be
>>7941487
No, you are the idiot, that was not refuting his point at all, your analogy was completely irrelevant. Meanwhile, you are still spouting meaningless bullshit. What fucking organic pesticide are you talking about, dipshit? Are you on crack?
>>7941444
what the literal fuck even is this post. youve succeeded in making people tolerate the "le blak suice man" post on top of yours simply with relative stupidity
>>7941486
i dont disagree with your stance, but humans are nature. the only factor involved is darwin, and looking by the tribes that have survived for over 20x longer than any 1 civilization, my money is on them
>>7941492
This is my first time here and I thought that I could have an intelligent discussion with people but it turns out that most people here are just pretentious children. I guess that's my cue to leave.
>>7941460
Because if the compound works in isolation, more consistently, with fewer side effects then we know that it is better that way. If the medicine is best (most effectively) taken in a 'whole' form then we take it that way (eg. medical cannabis).
>>7941505
Wow, nice... You still have no good arguments, just insults. Clearly you have lost this one, my man. Maybe you should stop wasting your time on things you clearly know nothing about and instead go study for your Biology exam.
>>7941509
>Most people here are just pretentious children
Welcome to 4chan.
If you lurk enough you'll learn when you're going t have a meaningful conversation and when you're going to get meme'd on.
>>7941508
>humans are nature!! changing nature is bad!!
yeah man we shouldn't have eliminated smallpox, it's nature!! we should also use snake venom as medicine instead because it's natural unlike those pesky chemicals in gelatin caps!!
>>7941513
Wow, thank you for actually presenting a pretty good argument and not acting childish. I see where you are coming from, and it makes a lot of sense. However, from what I've read modern medicine generally has more side effects and potential dangers than simple herbal remedies. Also, I feel as if medical cannabis will soon be merely in pill form as well, the pharmaceutical companies are already working on products such as Sativex, and other cannabis medications which are man-made.
>>7941527
wow you are a stupid fuck arent you. my post was implying that humans, and everything that humans do, whether it be industry or war, is nature. lets skip the hysterics next time, friend
>>7941530
in this digital age, finding the elementary processes to everything we see is absolutely fundamental to science. the problem is we mistake our amazing prowess in this age as merit, when we arent even scratching the surface of comprehending complex systems yet. we are still playing with legos, pretending we are engineers
isolation and allocation is not the most sterile and correct form of medication, and we have evolved alongside many plants and animals that we have created dependencies on them, down to the deepest level. our livelihood is contingent on those other biotics as a whole, not as a single isolated compound. isolation is not the study of medicine, it is the study of chemistry, being sold to consumers as quite literal albeit effective snake oil for a buck
>>7941532
what the fuck are you even talking about? you're retarded
>>7941530
>However, from what I've read modern medicine generally has more side effects and potential dangers than simple herbal remedies
Depends on the remedies in question and the dosage of the active ingredients. Smoking datura for asthma relief has more side effects than taking scopolamine extract in a pill, for example. Also your typical 'herbal remedy' is going to contain less of the active ingredient(s) than a similar drug in isolated form - upping the curative potential but also increasing the risk of developing sides.
>Also, I feel as if medical cannabis will soon be merely in pill form as well
It already is in some sense; look up 'marinol'. As for sativex it's essentially an extract of the cannabis plant with a very high ratio of CBD:THC. It kinda blurs the line between 'natural herbal medicine' and conventional 'medicine'. There's also Phoenix Tears which is a hydrocarbon extract as opposed to alcohol. A better example of a 'man made' cannabis drug would be AM404 - an anandamide reuptake inhibitor (or spice in general I guess but it's theraputic value is limited to say the least).
>>7941544
Very well said, I agree completely.
a human is not a human, a human is part of a biome that he evolved in. a fox from the desert can survive in the desert and would die in the forest, and vice versa, because he is not an individual of that desert, but because he has evolved strictly with it. every cell we have is contingent on the entire environment. there is no single part of it that can be isolated and reproduced, then done away with the contributing biotic. systems are yet far too complex for us to try and reproduce, and the entire space-age is motivated by that goal of systemic coherence
>>7941554
wOoOoOo
True, /sci/entists wouldn't pass judgement without performing their own tests.
>>7941590
This. True /sci/entists verify quantum mechanics before testing any hypothesis.
>>7941460
>Sometimes I think science is holding us back because it demands PROOF for everything.
Well that's gotta be the most retarded thing I've read all year
>>7941715
i dont disagree, but his implications were clear and true enough
bumpu-desu
I heard there has been studies on it that actually confirm that some of it works, but I'm not completely sure on that.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2995283/
Here's one here
>>7941559
Thank you for your valued input into this discussion
>>7941743
>his implications were clear and true enough
They were clear, but not true.
His post, and many others like it, rely on a false assumption. They assume that plants are medicinal as their main purpose, and are optimized for maximal medical benefit. In reality, plants only have medicinal properties as a byproduct of their own metabolism, by accident if you will. As such, there is no benefit to taking the whole plant, which is designed to survive, not be a medicine.
>>7941261
If alternative medicine worked they would just call it "medicine"
>>7941554
Why are there people like this on /sci/? Just wondering how these people get here.
>>7941889
its easy to look tenured when you dont say shit. compete or die
>>7941903
I'm not nearly high enough to decipher this babble.
>>7941261
Alternative medicine means scientifically untested. Effects and side effects are defined mostly on feel basis. On some lucky corner case they might even work, but as easily it also could have some unexpected side effects.
Which do you think, that drug companies don't cash in on alternative medicine because it is too easy or because it won't work? If there someday is found some alternative medicine that actually works, conventional medicine will test it scientifically and it will become a real drug and again we would be back in our original situation where alternative drugs wouldn't work.
For some reason most of the people seem to think that natural things are always better, healthier and less harmful. You all are aware that there is naturally toxic things in nature also? Things that could kill you. Something growing in nature, is more likely to evolve to defend itself than produce healthy goods for mankind.
If alternative medicine worked it would be called medicine
>>7941980
lol dumb jewish shill
back to pol
It's bullshit.
All cures came from nature, yes.
The ones that worked we refined and now call them "medicine."
The rest is bullshit.
>>7941460
It's really not that hard
>I get X condition
>we studied the hell out of it and found that it is caused by Y
>we need to inhibit Y
>there is Z made in this plant
>Z inhibits Y
>let's isolate it and see if it still works apart from the plant
>it does
>let's find a synthetic route to Z, scale it up, and use it to treat X without having to consume tree bark boiled in flax seed oil.
>>7941261
It always works for me when """"""real"""""" medicine doesn't do shit
[eqn] \color{red} {\mathbf{(USER ~~WAS ~~BANNED ~~FOR ~~THIS ~~POST)} } [/eqn]
There are many types of "medicine":
Cures + profitable = medicine
Treats not cures + profitable = Chemo/pills
Doesn't treat or cure + profitable = Junk food
Cures + not profitable = "no scientific evidence! a scam! parents killed child! force them to vaccinate!"
Treats not cures + profitable = alternative medicine.
Doesn't treat or cure + not profitable = a fun time.
:^)
>>7942033
oops
>Treats not cures + profitable = alternative medicine.
Treats not cures + not profitable = alternative medicine.
>>7942013
Love that [math]\LaTeX[/math]
>>7942013
BASED
>>7942034
I was gonna say...
What does it mean if people can grow plants that cure disease in a pot on the kitchen bench?
If they can share it or its seeds with their neighbours and community?
What does it mean if no money is made yet the disease is beaten?
What if perfect health is actually totally free?
>>7942045
That would be nice anon.
Unfortunately the real world isn't big on nice
>>7942036
[math]\color{red} {\mathbf{(IT'S ~~FAKE)} }[/math]
>>7942047
>What is cannabis?
>>7942087
>what does that have to do with what I posted?
Or do you really think cannabis can solve all the world's problems?
>>7942098
you think you are being funny, but you dont have a clue
>>7941419
/thread
>>7941527
Top kek
>>7942099
>you dont have a clue
I really don't.
The fuck are you on about?
>>7942013
mods confirmed big pharma autism vaccine shills
[math] \color{red}{\bf{ \lower{0.125em}{ \unicode[arial,helvetica, sans-serif]{x28}} \unicode[arial,helvetica, sans-serif]{x55} \unicode[arial,helvetica, sans-serif]{x53}
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>>7942147
Nice [math]\LaTeX[/math]
I just bought the right to sell aids medicine
[eqn] \color{red} {\mathbf{(USER ~~WAS ~~ RAMMED ~~FOR ~~THIS ~~POST)} } [/eqn]
>>7942147
Oh, you must be one of those advanced stupids. I give you little attention, since your mommy and daddy clearly didn't give you enough. Aren't you just a cute boy.
>>7942162
no means no
silly engineer
>>7942048
no it's not
[math] \color{red} {\mathbf{(USER ~~WAS ~~BANNED ~~FOR ~~THIS ~~POST)} } [/math]
>>7941438
>thinks putting unmeasured and unstudied chemicals into your body is okay if it's 'natural'
Go eat some unprocessed raw almonds. They'll cure what you've got.
>>7941460
Even if we don't fully understand the mechanism, we could still study the link between a plant and its effects on illness.
It needs to work better than a placebo or it's woo.
I dont understand how its still a thing in the modern world. The fact there's still an industry for this kind of stuff is proof that people still very ignorant.
>>7942181
Can you empirically prove that it's not fake?
it never fails to astound me that you people are so moronic that you cant even comprehend the idea of hundreds to thousands of years of a culture figuring out that certain plants are good treatments for different things
>>7941840
>there is no benefit to taking the whole plant, which is designed to survive, not be a medicine.
Truth. Anyone that makes appeals to nature arguing against this fails to understand that nature isn't some optimal design for a specific purpose. It's all just side effects arising from darwinism.
The only ones that design things are people. Everything else that's alive is just optimized for survival through a process of elimination. Just about the only somewhat okay argument is to say that more research on the medicine in question is needed before it can be conclusively argued it's useless to take the whole plant, but then this is only arguable if there really isn't a body of evidence to work with.
>>7942246
what do you study
>>7942259
no that is not what 'nature' is, and just a small amount more experience with philosophy (mathematical as well) you would see the folly in your perspective
like, literally a high school biology class level
>>7942253
That model of discerning medicinal benefits is so wishy washy and not even guaranteed. Once a perceived "medicine" is established in this way everyone just accepts it for what it is regardless of whether or not it actually does have any benefit.
Consider the following hypothetical situation; A man falls sick with a disease we'll identify as illness A. The visible symptoms of this disease is identical to another that is fatal and untreatable called illness B. The man ate his meals with rosemary and recovered from illness A, so people immediately assume rosemary cures illness B, without realizing that the pathogen that caused the disease was different and just exhibited similar symptoms with a lower mortality rate. It becomes customary to treat anyone with these symptoms with rosemary in their meals, and all the recoveries from illness A are falsely attributed to the rosemary. Over time people come to accept rosemary and defend it as a "time proven" treatment for illness B.
>>7942267
Then by all means, explain to me what nature is in your own terms.
>>7942259
I agree that the appeal to nature fallacy is greatly overused. However, there are cases in which ingesting ("taking") "the whole plant" is beneficial over just ingesting one isolated compound from the plant, and in those cases you get several contributing compounds that may e.g. prove more effective or might mitigate side effects, when compared to ingesting just a single isolated compound.
I have never heard of multicompound isolations (please apply the principle of charity here, I don't feel like elaborating for the next 5 paragraphs). It's also possible that the pharmaceutical industry is in it more for the money than what's objectively best for patients in non-0 of cases. An example of both these issues (isolation of single compound, capitalistic gains #1 priority) would be THC as an antiemetic for chemotherapy patients in Europe (I wouldn't know about US conditions).
99.9% of altmeds are bull.
20% of maimstream meds are bull.
Not one ever speaks about fucked up studies that keep pushing people to altmeds.
No, just blame misinformation, not the problems in the pushy industrial complex.
Now tell me that the scientific consensus is that sedatives and stimulants correct imbalances in the brain.
*rolls eyes*
>>7942302
i cant tell what youre saying about stimulants but ill fucking cut you if you try to take my adhd meds away from me
my degree of functionality sans extra dopamine flushing to my underdeveloped frontal cortex is minimal
>>7942246
Because, oh ignorant one, about 1% of altmeds have actually been proven to have some effects that are greater than placebo.
Some tisanes and teas, for instance.
Even Randi agrees with that.
>>7942281
the current iteration of life was not a happy accident, and there exists no such thing as perfect insulation. "holistic" remedies sounds like a buzzword, but the definition is referring to a philosophical stance about truths and relativism. i am not against modern medicine, my argument is against the ignorance and prejudice being portrayed against folk remedies
>>7942303
>my degree of functionality sans extra dopamine flushing to my underdeveloped frontal cortex is minimal
That's actually not true at all and there is no scientific proofs that back that up.
Psyche meds are just sedatives and stimulants that just fuck with pathways; there are no "balances" or "imbalances" and serotonin and dopamine don't have as much to do with cognition as industrialists promote.
>>7942306
what is almost the single thing you are told not to take alongside most prescription medications? since everyone here are such medical geniuses, this is common knowledge
>>7942314
1.) Alcohol
2.) Aspirin
3.) Grapefruit
What does that have to do with my post?
This is completely non-sequitur.
>>7942310
>Meta-analysis shows significant association between dopamine system genes and attention deficit hyperactivity disorder (ADHD)
http://hmg.oxfordjournals.org/content/15/14/2276.short
>Dopamine D4 receptor gene polymorphism is associated with attention deficit hyperactivity disorder.
http://europepmc.org/abstract/med/9118321
>Dopamine transporter density in patients with attention deficit hyperactivity disorder
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0140673699040301
theres actually an awful lot of scientific proof but you wont believe that because youre some pharma truther moron
>>7942321
1.) Correlation is not causation
2.) Correlation is not causation
3.) Correlation is not causation
Apparently you failed science or had a bad teacher.
DNEWS is more your style. They had a video entitled something along the lines of "Everything Wrong With Science".
You should get your sippy cup, sit down and watch it.
>>7942321
>"Everything Wrong With Science"
Here you go:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9f9I5zAjZ6I
>>7942321
people that link studies theyve never read before need to be gassed
>>7942316
i was referring to st john wort, as it fit my narrative
>>7942336
Saint Johns Wort [just noticed those SJW initials too...lol] has shown some promise under scrutinous scientific testing.
Many tisanes have shown equal if not better treatment from blood pressure than industrial meds.
I'm not a supporter of 99.9% of altmeds, but some folk remedies should be studied.
My use if Hibiscus actually lowered by BP significantly, and some other tea has helped with my IBS.
I'm just saying things should be looked into, critically mind you, but not dismissed without any research what so ever.
>>7942329
Not him. Would you care to elaborate upon this? Why do you assume that he hasn't read the studies he linked?
>>7942327
So your argument is god of the gaps but with woo?
There are some valid points that she makes that suggest we should have some academic reform, but it doesn't support alternative medicine.
>>7942346
this
dismissing alternative medicine claims for the sole reason that they are alternative medicine is just as unscientific as claiming that this bottle of snake oil will cure all your ailments
>>7941840
Not true. Example, cannabis.
>"active" ingredient THC, side effect causes psychosis
>"other" ingredients, cannabinoids, some have anti-psychotic effects.
There are probably more examples, here's a bit about... "Willow bark is used to ease pain and reduce inflammation. Researchers believe that the chemical salicin, found in willow bark, is responsible for these effects. However, studies show several other components of willow bark, including plant chemicals called polyphenols and flavonoids, have antioxidant, fever-reducing, antiseptic, and immune-boosting properties. Some studies show willow is as effective as aspirin for reducing pain and inflammation (but not fever), and at a much lower dose. Scientists think that may be due to other compounds in the herb. More research is needed."
>>7942013
Too right. Ban me you cunts, you know fuck all, ignorant retards.
>>7942625
But once all relevant compounds are extracted and can be manufactured in controlled doses, my argument still stands
>>7942628
>the whole plant, which is designed to survive, not be a medicine
Possibly, but consider the plethora of substances in nature and how long it would take to research everything. And then the interactions of each ingredient alongside its companions, on human physiology? Almost impossible.
>>7942648
Don't get me wrong anon, I'm not saying plants as medicine is bad.
All I am saying is that when we get to the point that we have identified all medically relevant components, and can produce them, there is no reason to continue taking the whole plant
>>7942655
Yes, there will always be some successes; aspirin, diamorphine, etc. But how to define which substances are medically relevant? Science still has only the simplest understanding of how human physiology reacts. Look at those guys who dies a few weeks back in that drugs test. Vioxx. Gardasil. Stuff that 'shouldn't' have happened according to initial research. We don't know enough to cover all the bases when we consider active ingredients and their reactions with their neighbours and human physiology.
>>7942666
Makes absolutely no sense. Saying that we understand little about biochemistry is an argument *against* taking the whole plant, since if we understand so little we should only take medicine with effects that are well studied.
>>7942666
Not the guy you are arguing with, but...
Maybe I have missed something relevant. Do you really think that would have been avoided if the effective molecules had been taken from the living plant? How does that change anything. Problem is that we are all little different so there is no one work for all solution. The fact that something comes from the nature is no guarantee that it is safer or healthier. For the love of God, cocaine comes from nature, so does many other toxins. From nature is just a marketing term.
>>7942099
Ugh stupid fucking pot heads think weed is gods gift to man. No it just makes you high.
>>7942693
na dood
weed is the secret to unlocking the universe
did you know that glashow, weinberg, and salam smoked weed together during office hours and this is how the standard model was invented?
>>7942251
>like that you can
so what if you have the same font as mods?
>>7942693
>no it just makes you high
>can fix epilepsy with no side effects
>can help people with glaucoma
>can kill cancer cells
>can help people with multiple sclerosis
>can improve abstract thinking and make people more reasonable
So you're a high schooler fresh out of a DARE convention or you sincerely believe that weed has no medical and psychological benefits?
>>7942914
>I have only ever researched one side of an argument
>>7942954
When that one side has numerous pieces of evidence supporting its effectiveness, then its not really important to listen to the opposing side. Weed has been clearly shown to work in every example listed.
>>7942681
>Makes absolutely no sense. Saying that we understand little about biochemistry is an argument *against* taking the whole plant, since if we understand so little we should only take medicine with effects that are well studied.
Oh, do you mean like taken as traditional remedies for hundreds or possibly thousands of years?
>>7943077
The guy is correct, those are real things. Maybe presented little optimistically, but regardless. Cannabis is still heavily studied and it has a lot of potential. For example, it has actually killed cancer cells in laboratory.
Those things have very little to do with smoked pot, however. Meaning that when you smoke cannabis, similar molecules doesn't end up everywhere in your body and do all the magic stuff listed. Smoked cannabis has a lot of harmful side effects too.
>>7943077
>can improve abstract thinking and make people more reasonable
>with no side effects
Well these are not true whatsoever.
>>7942914
>no side effects
Shill detector is off the charts.
Literally everything has side effects. Anyone who says something has none is pushing snake oil
>>7943121
read a book sometime
>>7943100
Because everything that's old is correct 100%.
>>7943268
I love that you require a source for statements that contradict for opinion, yet provide none when supporting it
>>7943458
I should rephrase that it has no important side effects that are worth worrying about.
>>7943810
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>>7943800
Do you have any proof?
>>7941261
it's a good form of natural selection
http://www.mms-supplement.com/
>>7943932
http://www.complex.com/pop-culture/2015/08/teens-smoking-weed-marijuana-no-health-harm
>>7941261
Alternative medicine is medicine that has not been proven to work or has been proved not to work
Do you know what we call alternative medicine that has been proven to work?
Medicine
>>7943828
Thank god
>>7944017
>self-reporting
Right. Such reliable health evidence.
>>7944146
http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2015-08/apa-tmu080315.php
It was published in Psychology of Additcive Behaviors, how is this self reporting?
>>7944158
Clearly you didn't even read the paper at all, for if you did, one of the major limitations it's the fact that health issues on the males witnessed was conducted by questionnaire. They were not examined by a medical professional, they were self reporting. Maybe actually read what you cite before using it to back your argument
>>7943268
I tried to give you those sources, but no luck. Let's see if I'm able to break them into parts.
Error: Our system thinks your post is spam. Please reformat and try again.
>>7943268
>when you smoke cannabis, similar molecules doesn't end up everywhere in your body and do all the magic stuff listed.
What I meant is, there are many different ways to use cannabis and not all of them come from smoking. There are 483 identifiable chemical constituents known to exist in cannabis, not all of them are transferable with smoke. There are other limitations too not all substances end up everywhere in the body.
>Smoked cannabis has a lot of harmful side effects too.
While most serious side effects come from long usage and large dosage anyway way there are some. Suppression of the immune system, Growth disorders, Increase of abnormally structured cells in the body, Reduction of male sex hormones, reduced ability to learn and retain information, Apathy, drowsiness, lack of motivation, Inability to understand things clearly
There are many scientific studies to back these up. It is not a miracle drug but it is very promising in many ways. Heady effect is side effect too when you consider cannabis as a medicine. I tried to include studies, I had a long list of those, with proper quotes to speed you up, but unfortunately spam filter don't let me trough with it.
>>7944250
that was some articulate bullshit
>>7944257
That was some inarticulate bullshit
>>7944262
>Inability to understand things clearly
Maybe you are suffering from this. But yeah, I suck at English and that was like eight version that got trough, so I was pretty much feeling, fuck it, at that point.
>>7944281
I think you might have misunderstood my intention. I was claiming the post I linked was inarticulate bullshit, as it tries to hand wave away all the explanation in ad hominem
>>7944289
Oh, OK! I fist thought, it may have been an ironic bug fix to the earlier post.
Usually it's a marketing ploy, when combined with exercise, good diet, and maintaining a healthy body-weight, it's usually not necessary. When it's used as a supplement it can contribute to prevention. As it stands exercise + healthy diet + sunlight are the best ways.
>>7944297
I agree on your stand for alternative supplements, but what about alternative methods that claim to cure diseases or other illnesses?
>>7944310
why does this board persist to speak in generalities? no science can be compounded into concepts. is there a specific alternative treatment you are speaking about?
>>7944315
>no science can be compounded into concepts
What?
>>7944321
are you the person i was responding to? you in damage control mode? want to meme yourself out of it?
"alternative methods to medicine" means exactly nothing. if you were referring to a specific treatment, then fucking mention it.
>alternative methods
what a fucking moron, there is no judgment that can be passed on such an arbitrary and vacuous concept
>>7944310
>what about alternative methods that claim to cure diseases or other illnesses
What are these claims based on? Is there a scientific study to back them up? Is it result/feel oriented or small group study, like it worked for my friend.
We are all different and react little differently to different substances. It is good to understand as much as you can before messing with your body chemistry, fail-safe mechanisms can only protect you so far.
Taking the medicine is always a trade off with the symptoms and the side effects. At which point the illness is at the level that it is worth to cause temporary harm or discomfort in other area. They should never be taken carelessly and it is good to know what the trade off is. Otherwise you are writing an open check on behalf your health.
>>7944354
Are you seriously unable to respond to a collection of related things without specifics?
>>7944377
quite literally. it would be irresponsible of me to partake in your egotistical folly
