What changed since the golden age that makes Arabs completely irrelevant to science today?
>>7925334
desecularization.
![B-YfFlsCUAAJV2S[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/RFrT64n.jpg "B-YfFlsCUAAJV2S[1].jpg")
>>7925339
This, pretty sad to see what happened to Iran after the Islamic revolution
>>7925334
There will only so many things to take from the Greeks.
>>7925356
halal, as everything should be.
>>7925356
>being degenerate like westerners is a good thing
kek, enjoy societal collapse in 20 years or becoming euro-arabo-istan
>>7925356
Blame Britain.
>>7925374
>implying Islam, yet another Abrahamic religion, is not western degeneracy
>>7925356
Who needs science when you have geniuses like this?
>>7925379
IDK if Britain is totally at fault. If the liberals had their shit together when the Shah ran the fuck off then Sean Connery would have never taken over the revolution.
>>7925334
The Mongols
>>7925339
This is the actual answer. Neil Tyson, when he actually gave interesting talks, did one on Muslim influence in Astronomy and covered that they stopped being a major center for the sciences following desecularization due to a hyper-religious caliphate.
\thread
>>7925422
They continued to produce science but were eclipsed by europe
>>7925422
>desecularization
They were never secular dumb ass.
>>7925431
read the thread dumbass
>It was secular during the 786-1300, under islam rule, wasn't it under Sharia law ?
>>7925439
>secular
Absolutely not dumbass.
>>7925334
They ran out of Greek documents to translate.
>>7925334
Islam wasn't as extreme as it is now, or became after that period. Then the real fanatics took over and declared science an affront to God.
>>7925467
But they mostly burned those down
>>7925473
Not all of Indian sciences were lost, they made it into Muslim astronomy and mathematics, but a vast majority of it were lost.
>>7925472
>Islam wasn't as extreme as it is now
It was, but most of that energy was directly externally and not internally.
Muhammad knew that Earth was egg shaped.
Then explain this image.
>>7925406
That's Sean Connery
>>7925334
Muslim here
There's a lot of BS ITT.
In islam, seeking knowledge or teaching is actually one of the most noble thing you can do. Especially teaching and writing books because it's a "running deed" (it keeps doing good even after your death).
So why are muslim countries not producing much science?
Two reasons :
-if they are poor as fuck, well there you have it. Other poor countries don't contribute shit either.
-if they have oil, they are lazy and invest in material things rather than knowledge.
From growing in a Muslim country, I noticed many people don't question what they are told. They don't look for explanations past what their parents or friends tell them. In other words, "science" is not a part of the culture anymore.
People often think that religious knowledge is sufficient (it is encouraged by religion as well), but they don't bother looking up stuff.
Another issue is the people who design education systems. Sometimes, the people is easier to control if they are not very educated, maybe just enough to work. Only elites study sciences. Maybe this has been going on for centuries, but I can't tell I don't know the history of all regions of the world.
>>7925499
>About the image, doesn't it say that the earth is round in the quran, how is that guy denying it?
Muhammad doesn't really say that Earth is egg shaped, it is an interpretation I believe.
>>7925494
correction, it is Supreme Leader Ayatollah Sean Connery
>>7925501
>From growing in a Muslim country, I noticed many people don't question what they are told. They don't look for explanations past what their parents or friends tell them. In other words, "science" is not a part of the culture anymore.
>People often think that religious knowledge is sufficient (it is encouraged by religion as well), but they don't bother looking up stuff.
This right here is the problem, and it's a result of desecularization.
And that's not even mentioning the science that goes against holy scriptures, and Islam is very strict on being interpreted word for word and not the message behind it unlike Christianity and Protestantism in particular
>>7925550
>This right here is the problem, and it's a result of desecularization.
And that's not even mentioning the science that goes against holy scriptures, and Islam is very strict on being interpreted word for word and not the message behind it unlike Christianity and Protestantism in particular
This is wrong. There is no opposition between reality and the holy scripture. There is just what people want to find in it. And they will find a way. The most memorable thing imo is how water from two seas don't mix for example. But religion really doesn't try to explain how the world works. It's about how to live your life and how to live as a society to keep trouble to the minimum.
I think I share some of Pascal's philosophy.
>>7925482
They're looking into the ground though.
>>7925563
>The most memorable thing imo is how water from two seas don't mix for example
So what the Koran says is it? I've only read the New Testament so I'm not so knowledgeable on scriptures. (Doesn't the Koran also have the New and Old Testaments or is it just the Old Testament or is everything modified?)
>>7925356
blame mens, not religion
>>7925454
>They ran out of Greek documents to translate.
>>7925364
>There will only so many things to take from the Greeks.
THAT'S NOT FAIR!
...they also stole some stuff from the Indians.
"arabic" numerals for instance
>>7925501
>Especially teaching and writing books because it's a "running deed" (it keeps doing good even after your death).
...sure...
>>7925501
>"science" is not a part of the culture anymore.
/thread
I don't think a figure like Kant, who goes like
>Okay, let's be honest this god-given stuff is bullshit, so let's think hard how to take the morals and such religions merit and try to incorporate in the context of a humanistic framework of society
can be possible in a religion that's full of self-referential self-defense triggers
>if you don't believe this book you read this in is coming from god himself (something every rational Arab scientist will obviously have a cognitive dissonance over but is per construction of the system disallowed to discuss), then you're excluded from all potential mystical benefits
To be honest I wonder why it worked for the West
>>7925482
It's symbolic.
If there was one thing to remember Islam is the absolute oneness of God. There is no god but God.
Everything revolves around this idea. In Islam there is no altars. Why do we pray towards Mecca? Because the Kaaba is only filled with God's presence. Our prayers are directed only toward God. Not to a statue, not to a book, not to a man. Only to God.
You should have other sources of information that the caricature that the media or forums make.
Islam is a rational religion. It is no coincidence that the scientific and philosophical renaissance in Europe took place thanks to Islam.
Of course, the contemporary era knows the emergence of a violent Islam, anti-intellectual and bloody. For me it is a heresy in Islam, a corruption of Islam.
>>7925630
Accidentally. The Catholic Church was a supporter of the sciences in the West. Of course, it has had and still does have some really bad idiosyncrasies with that objective, but it is/was pro-science by and large.
>>7925501
>-if they are poor as fuck, well there you have it. Other poor countries don't contribute shit either.
Bullshit. Poland contributed a ton to mathematics/logic when it exited the tripartition in the 20th century while poor as fuck.
>-if they have oil, they are lazy and invest in material things rather than knowledge.
Same with Russia but they contributed a lot to STEM too.
The reason why Muhammadans don't contribute to science is because of Muhammadanism rots their brains.
>>7925646
How could they have time to contribute to STEM when they must constantly be facing in a single direction bowing their heads to a cube.
Arab studying science in the West here...
I've met up with other Arabs in my university and the the fact is 95% of people from the Gulf study engineering (the remaining 5% do business management) with the goal of the degree being to "work in dad's company." Often times in the Gulf a degree is nothing more than a carrier of prestige... you can Google the scandal in Saudi regarding forged doctorates.
Sadly (and I speak only for my region) your life is often preprogrammed and there are only a few set careers you can follow; a lot of times you are limited to the triad of lawyer/engineer/doctor or otherwise Dad's Company.
In fact, to be completely honest with you the reason I am studying science has to do with sheer chance. On both sides of my family we got fucked over so while my uncles drive Porsches and live in mansions my family isn't as privileged and so, living a life you could compare to the Western middle class, I ironically had my own "choice" to study a path I wanted because being a NEET was financially not an option. I was lucky to have both of my parents be working (my mother is college-educated in science which is rare; the society is still very backwards with regards to women, though this is improving.) My family insisted that I develop good English and I was pressured into taking the advanced modules.
I would differ from this thread that the reason behind the lack of development in Arab science is religion. Neil DeGrasse Tyson's widely shared talk alleging so is bizarre (he blames an obscure Sufi mystic on the downfall of Arab-Islamic science) and the general consensus is that the downfall was multifactorial, coinciding with the collapse of the great empires. While I admit I am secular, I think the main reason today science is underappreciated in my region happens for two reasons: society and economics.
Society is the reason the intelligent Arabs flock to the West; there is no place for them in their own home.
>>7925550
>desecularization
They weren't atheists before Islam came around. Stop buying into the fairy tale that all progress comes for atheism.
>>7925651
>Stop buying into the fairy tale that all progress comes for atheism
That's not it at all. Christianity for example did a lot of good for European progress, but I don't think you know what the word secular means
>>7925651
>desecularization == atheism
Oh boy, religious retard reporting in
>>7925334
The same thing that set back the Greeks and Romans. Religion.
Religion purged most of what had been learned. Catholicism had its' renaissance. Islam has yet to have a similar event that would get the church out of free thought process.
>>7925635
>Islam is a rational religion.
You can sugar coat however you like but it is anything but rational when proponents of it cannot stand freedom of speech.
Many religions believe in oneness of God but what a Muslim really is - is a person who believes that Muhammad was a prophet of God. People who believe in God are blasphemers if they do not believe in Muhammad. There the divide between metaphysical philosophy and bullshit gets drawn.
>It is no coincidence that the scientific and philosophical renaissance in Europe took place thanks to Islam.
Wow. So much bullshit.
>For me it is a heresy in Islam, a corruption of Islam.
It does not matter what it is to you, who are you?
>>7925635
>It is no coincidence that the scientific and philosophical renaissance in Europe took place thanks to Islam
What the fuck have you been smoking?
>>7925580
>Doesn't the Koran also have the New and Old Testaments or is it just the Old Testament or is everything modified
It's all paraphrased in the Koran and it's not even in any sane order - it's all sorted in descending order of chapter lengths. They are told to hold the bible as true but Muhammad was illiterate and didn't realize how badly the Koran clashed with it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nNAS0aaViM4
>>7925635
>rational religion
oxymoron
>>7925650
Cont.
Iranians are not Arabs and while we have a de facto rivalry I really have to admit that they are much better in the sciences than Arabs are.
Iran's pariah status gave it strength-from-adversity whereas despite the brutal political atmosphere sciences were encouraged; there are various brilliant men and women who continue to work in science in Iran. Of course there is also the "flee to the West" phenomenon where many Iranians (eg Maryam Mirzakhani) have risen to prominence in the West doing work that they either couldn't have done in Iran or did not have the necessary environment to complete to full potential.
This also brings me to why I hate the phrase "Islamic science" because the various distinct empires which professed different forms of Islam as the national religion are completely different historical entities... while many emperors/rulers/caliphs encouraged research others, often in the same empire/caliphate, were apathetic or even suppressed it - Ibn al Haytham was kept under house arrest a millennium ago for overambition in a failed project he proposed to the Caliph.
In conclusion Islam is a religion and you are not going to get scientific results from praying. Yes, the empire Mohammed formed ~1500 years ago carried with it much more than just religion, and arguably spawned much of the later historical developments, but it's a bit of a butterfly effect. There needs to be clarity in the separation of what results from religion and what results from careful methodical research carried out under a historical object which had a religious banner. The end
>>7925666
>satanic post checked. Full of shit as usual.
The koran and the bible really have nothing in common, your uneducatedness is showing.
In islam, the bible has been modified because jesus never died, he isn't related to god in any way and so on.
Anyway this isn't what the thread is about.
>>7925690
>satanic post detected
>satanic post
>satanic
Back to your koran study, achmed
>>7925698
I *think* he might be being a wee bit sarcastic.
>>7925707
Yes, I think we all see that.
>>7925690
>The koran and the bible really have nothing in common, your uneducatedness is showing.
That's what I said
>Paraphrased: To adapt or alter (a text or quotation) to serve a different purpose from that of the original
Muhammad regurgitated the stuff in the bible (and apocrypha that was popular at the time) and modified it to fit his liking. He didn't append to it or quote it like the new testament does to the old.
>>7925687
>I hate the phrase "Islamic science"
Yes, it annoys me too. You see it often in Wikipedia, often in the first sentence. I don't usually see why it's relevant. If his religion had nothing to do with the science, why call it "Islamic Science?"
Imagine calling Galileo's work "Catholic Science"
>>7925334
Arabs do not need material things to live happy, contrary to westerners who rely on science to sustain their pleasures.
>>7925334
they fucked a goat.
>>7925932
>contrary to westerners who rely on science to sustain their pleasures.
Said the person posting on a Chinese puppet-show forum.
>>7925477
the driving one is kind of plausible
Hello everyone I'm a muslim living in baghdad and here's why the golden age disappeared.
1. Althought the interest in science and knowledge didn't stop during the Abbasyd empire but the new caliphs started paying less attention to science, and slowly became corrupt
2. The mongol invasion left a huge mark on the Islamic world, because it provided an era of instability that continued till today
3. The ottomans started controling the muslim world at some point but yet they focused mainly on military instead.
Many people might argue that desecularization was the reason why it ended, but thats just athiest talk, because at the golden age the caliph still waged wars on religious basis and religion remained the foundation of the islamic empire, the only secularization that occurred was in poetry and that's because the Caliph at that time loved poetry.
>>7925690
>The koran and the bible really have nothing in common,
What a retard.
>your uneducatedness is showing.
People have better things to do than read and compare fairy tales
Also why post this thread on /sci/? Literally the first google hit can answer the question
http://www.meforum.org/306/why-does-the-muslim-world-lag-in-science
>>7925962
*tips*
in a class there was this guy from syria, he was pretty well educated
so we were discussing biology, anatomy, and i mentioned something about vaginas. this guy afterwards comes up to me and says "anon, you cannot say that word out loud, it is forbidden"
i was like "who the fuck are you to tell me that?"
on another occasion, we were talking about the discovery of america, and i mentioned the vikings/vespucci/colombo, and this guy interrupts me and asks me "but you didnt mention piri reis" and apparently that is something most people from the arab world take for granted
ofc this is all anecdotal, but i cant help to wonder if that is indeed how most arab/muslims think. forgot to mention he got pretty fucking mad when we started discussing both subjects
>>7925477
Are you trying to say that women that dont dress modestly dont cause earthquakes?
>>7925950
The mongol invasion was so tragic for the muslim world it still has not recovered. I would love to be able to visit Iraq and Syria one day
>>7926374
>have one data point.
>tries to generalise it to 3 billion Muslims
I cant help to wonder if all Americans are indeed idiots like you
>>7925334
Well first of all, pretty much all "Arab" science was done by Muslim Persians.
Second, inner conflicts and repeated invasions by Mongols etc. probably destabilized various regions so that they were no longer optimal for scientific endeavors.
>>7926456
it's not just americans unfortunately.
I'd like to ask OP a different question:
being a scientist is probably seen as shit in western countries now. But investment in science still exists because the economic advantages are obvious.
What if arabs didn't "lag", but instead europeans just started focusing more on sciences?
I'm just wondering what made it possible.
Probably some French revolutions before siècle des lumières
IMO colonization also helped a lot, giving huge means.
That's probably the start of a big european economic growth (and a decline in civilization and hapiness, but who cares about that)
>>7926559
>I'm just wondering what made it possible.
Christianity.
>>7926559
>>being a scientist is probably seen as shit in western countries now.
not possible in liberal societies :If science falls, the human rights falls
>lack of vitality the common Western ideology of liberalism has, showing how tired and apathetic we have become as a culture, how we're pretty much push-overs.
any liberal doctrine is exactly this lack of vitality about the community. there is not lack of vitality when it comes to your self though: people still have faith in the concept of indivisibility of the in-dividual that the classical liberals and new liberals have been teaching for centuries.
the problem of the liberals, classical and new, is that that they disintegrate once that they lack of an enemy. liberalismS work well when explicit authoritative systems are on their soil; otherwise, there remains only the praxis of leisure, available to the masses by the entertainment industry, permitted by the faith in their Human rights and their sciences (and the faith that science backs up the HR and that the HR backs up the sciences).
today, even leisure even is ''ethical'', typically in tourism, so that you can claim to endorse the liberal mores while enjoying yourself.,.
the problem is that positivism and structuralism have been the pinnacle of the various liberalismS and the liberals, of any kind, cannot get out of their post-positivism and post-structuralism. they have no idea on how to save their doctrines.
so today, they try to incorporate anew the religion, the religious phenomenon as they put it in social sciences, after admitting that their liberalismS is just individual hedonism and social apathy.
>>7926431
It used to be a wonderful place, now its a shithole unfortunately...
>>7926563
>>7925334
Because of Islam.
>>7925687
>Iranians are not Arabs
This meme will never die.
Ever.
>>7925334
they have a tendency to spontaneously explode
>>7925482
This n00b doesn't know that prayers curve
>>7926614
This Muhammadan doesn't know he's pointing his ass to mecca too
>>7925334
The cult around al-Ghazah
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WZCuF733p88
>>7925946
Then the same thing would happen from sitting down
>>7925356
>Islamic revolution
What
>>7925339
>>7925422
The Arab world was peaking in science and many other social, technological and economic fields.
They lost that peak when the Mongols invaded stripping the Arabs of their power and advancements.
Insert huge culture wide distress and trauma. They havnt been able to fully recover til this day.
Insert foreign meddling keeping them behind.
I'm just supplying a view here for sake of argument.
>>7925635
>Our prayers are directed only toward God. Not to a statue, not to a book, not to a man. Only to God.
But you just said you pray to a building or something.
>>7925635
>Islam is a rational religion
Lel
Also, your post can be summarised as
>they follow Islam verbatim but I don't like that as it makes me a social outcast so they're not true Scotsmen
>if I just disregard all the violent verses of the Qur'an and exaggerate the good parts Islam is great, guys, honest
Don't kid yourself, even though Muslims as a whole aren't bad, the Qur'an (and all abrahamic religions' books) is/are barbaric and that presents a giant problem for religions
>>7925644
With a huge amount of convincing and lobbying
>>7926767
Are you trying to imply that their stance was not to accept science?
Mongols
Islam
Colonialism
>>7926869
When it contradicted Catholic dogma, yes
>>7926764
[citation needed]
You won't find one thing.
>>7926889
>galileo didn't exist
2/10 b8
>>7926891
>throwing names without any reasons
george bush
>>7926905
(you)
>>7926912
I was showing the opposition between the Bible and science (galileo)
I used him because he's a common example and thinking the same thing didn't happen for Islam is silly
>>7926920
but it didn't.
Maybe what's silly is generalizing without factual knowledge.
>>7926923
There is literally no reason for Islam to be different to Catholicism in this respect.
And, just look at >>7925477. These are Muslims in high level positions.
I'd probably have more records if books weren't the tool of the western infidel
You're just being obtuse and intellectually dishonest desu
>>7926912
>opposition = mutually exclusive
The minds of the simple work in absolutes.
>>7926576
Please go fuck yourself hard with a meatstick!
>>7926567
look how it thins out towards the latter half of the 20th century.
von Neumann, Erdös, Grothendieck, Perelman, Tao, ... all Atheists.
>>7926567
>people in times when not being religious was dangerous and socially looked down upon were generally religious
Wow
>>7925339
What About the Jews?
They have and still are innovating.
>>7927066
They place a far lower stress on religious knowledge over scientific knowledge
And they usually assimilate into other cultures and become successful in those, while maintaining strong jew-jew bonds but not necessarily aggravating non-jews
>>7925662
Well it's mostly true.
Early Renaissance in the 12th century happened due to the Islamic world opening up to Europe after the Crusades. European scholars like bin Gabirol were translated Greco-Arab scriptures to Latin and much of the Islamic scientific advancements were finally shared with Europe.
Then you have the real Renaissance, which happened due to the Muslim conquest of Constantinople, with Byzantine scholars leaving Constantinople for Europe to spread their knowledge.
People here just know nothing about history. During the Islamic Golden Age, the world was the contrary of what it was today. The Muslim world, and it is important to precise the Muslim world because it was mostly the Persians, not the Arabs, were light-years ahead of Europe in science. The first true scientists to follow the scientific method were Muslims as well, and they had the largest repository of knowledge in the entire world (House of Wisdom). Too bad the Mongols destroyed it all.
Better question is why Europe and European (culturally) societies became dominant.
Everybody else might be the rule, and Europe the exception.
they stopped conquering learrned peoples to plagiarize from and their nation's average iqs of ~85. Their preference to be endogamous for generations caught up to them,
>>7927057
>von Neumann, Erdös, Grothendieck, Perelman, Tao, ... all Atheists.
Von Neumann was agnostic, and Grothendieck believed in God.
>>7925334
>>7926484
>pretty much all "Arab" science was done by Muslim Persians.
Yup. Arabs are the culture of violent desert tribes that Islam was invented to unite against other cultures into a conquering army. Persians were already civilized when Islam came along, a bit like when the barbarous, vigorous Mongols conquered civilized, effete China.
The Arabs have never really become civilized. Even today, at their best they just flaunt and abuse vulgar wealth dropped into their laps after WW2 when the victorious allies let them keep territory they couldn't hold by their own force of arms, and sell oil they couldn't extract or refine.
Meanwhile, standards of universal human rights protect the free exercise of religion and push for democracy or lower forms of populism, both of which made it very difficult for the civilized elements of Iran (modern Persia) to defend themselves against deeply political and barbaric rabble-rousing forms of the religion.
Post-colonialism is absurd, trying to enforce worldwide niceness without acknowledging reality.
>>7926456
>tries to generalise it to 3 billion Muslims
>assuming im american
see, this is why the world thinks you're a bunch of goatscrewing monkeys, i did say it was anecdotal did i not?
>>7925334
There was no golden age.
Islam ruins everything. It is a death cult.
>>7925635
>It's symbolic.
It's idolatry.
>>7925356
man,those people are very much the embodiment of the 70s, and then they look like they went to the year 1400
>>7925635
I want that picture as a poster
>>7925651
secularism is not atheism you dumb piece of shit
>>7925334
Q: How do you create water?
A: Two parts hydrogen and one part oxygen, Allah willing.
Honestly, the religion of evil has set man back both mentally and socially.
>>7925932
yeh okei,that plump apple you're eating?wouldn't exist without science.that piping system you clean your ass with,won't exist without science,you know what would exist without science though? a plague.
>>7927245
>Post-colonialism is absurd, trying to enforce worldwide niceness without acknowledging reality.
holy shit, true to the last word.
>>7927066
Jews concede that their book is wrong if they find that it conflicts with science. I think that this has been repeated many times by many Rabbis.
>>7926456
>3 billion Muslims
That would be a nightmare.
Hundred of millions of Muslims believe that death is appropriate for those that insult Mohammed or leave the religion.
>>7926758
How did anyone else recover from the Mongols in the last 700 years?
>>7927098
>the renaissance was caused by christians leaving christian lands after muslim conquest
>the islamic golden age happened in formerly christian countries, whereby muslims appropriate christian discoveries
>therefore islamic scholarship caused the renaissance
wew lad
>>7925334
Arabs, and by arabs I mean Persians, stopped selecting for high IQ and probably increased inbreeding levels.
When the Crusaders arrived in Constantinople they relentlessly mocked the Byzantines for eating with cutlery.
You have to be profoundly retarded to believe events like the Black Plague and constant warfare and practices of outbreeding and higher fertility of rich people haven't propelled the IQ of Europeans to the stratosphere compared to what they used to be during the Islamic (read: Persian) Golden Age.
The phenotypes haven't changed and people look pretty much the same now, because there hasn't been any selective pressure for phenotypes.
But IQs have changed, a lot, and I bet Europeans back then were genuinely dumber than Persians (more inbred too), just like the German Barbarian hordes that lay waste to the Roman Empire were genuinely dumb as a pile of bricks, unlike modern Germans that are the result of two thousand years of selective pressure on IQ.
/end thread
>>7927853
This. The Chinese arguably felt the full wrath of Mongolia and they fully recovered. The Russians also experienced a lot of cultural enrichment at the hands of the Mongols or their offshoots, and yet still eventually became a European power.
The Arabs only accomplished anything via captured Greeks. Once the Greek blood was completely diluted around the time of the Renaissance, the Middle-East stagnated unbelievably.
>>7927869
most of your post is sound. there's not necessarily much evidence however, that germans were necessarily stupider than romans. their climate just didn't allow population expansion to the levels necessitating complex societies until farming technology improved drastically.
most/all roman accounts of german behavior is more or less in line with their modern behavior, which is that they are orderly, OCD, honorable, mostly monogamous, and morally compulsive.
no doubt all white phenotypes increased in intelligence over time. but I've got relatively little reason to assume that germans of their time were drastically, if any, stupider than romans in temrs of genetics
>>7927898
>their climate just didn't allow population expansion to the levels necessitating complex societies until farming technology improved drastically.
This is the competing hypothesis to the question of the intelligence of the german hordes. Personally, I do not believe there is enough evidence for either assertion, so I concede that on the special question I choose to take the side I mentioned earlier though new evidence can prove me wrong.
>>7927869
>Arabs, and by arabs I mean Persians
Persians aren't Arabs.
>>7927916
well, what seems reasonable to me is to compare other civilizational development
it's reasonable enough to assume that iq is increasing slowly in any northern environment population. if iq is the main bottleneck in the post 1st milennium, concerning civilizational development, then if germans really were lower iq than the romans, it would have taken a good millenium more before iq reached parity, germans woudl have also been shown to have been inferior in intellectual achievements and capability to the romans within the roman empire, which is simply not the case. germans adapted quickly to roman bureaucracies and indeed copied the majority of their technologies quickly even inside german territories.
compare this to the situation with the tai and southern chinese peoples who the chinese tried to civilize. the southern peoples were unable to learn chinese, unable to learn literacy, unable to practice their farming technologies, unable to organize at a scale sufficient to resist the chinese, unable to copy bureaucracy, unable to broker for peace. the chinese even offered the thai(dai) nobility WELFARE so that they could learn chinese language and technology, spread it to the south, and then conscript armies for the chinese to help fight the mongols.
but the southern asian tribes, even after achieving HIGHER population density than the germans, could NEVER learn to read, despite outside help, welfare, and sufficient population desnity, over the course of hundreds of years.
IQ seems to be implicated in this case. the germans took less than a 100 years to romanize.
>>7925334
Al Ghazali
>>7925950
>implying they didn't also take stuff from babylonians and other civilizations in mesopotamia
>implying baghdad wasn't a permanent center for civilization and science, regardless of religion, until all the invasions ruined the city
Got this also 4u ya galbi ;^)
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=eas6wwEJyS8
Inta sunni ao shi3i?
>>7927794
yes, scientists have the purpose to ease our lives. they are paid to make us feel good.
>>7925649
If I had three wishes from a Genie, I'd ask to turn that cube, and the wailing wall and all their ilk, into pork.
>>7925334
fall of byzantine and ottoman empire
/thread
>>7925356
>iran before islamic revolution: america
>>7926564
Wow.
Religious autism.
Get a life m80
>>7928050
they would have called scientists autistic back in the dark ages, m8
your inability to understand social phenomena via deductive structures just makes you stupid. it doesn't make him autistic.
>>7926932
and still no proof.
You are wrong, just admit it and move on. I'm not even sure catholicism claims anything about science either, but I haven't read any scripture.
>>7926934
only the mind of the mongoloids don't understand what "opposition" mean.
4chin is 18+.
It's no surpise that mainstream liberal historians or whatever will deliberately ignore IQ & it's effects on populations.
>>7925690
Paki IDF pls go
>>7925635
>Islam is a rational religion
More like horrifically contradictory
>a corruption of Islam
No, that's 100 pure islam
>>7926891
>galileo
12 year olds don't belong here
>>7926932
>There is literally no reason for Islam to be different to Catholicism in this respect.
Have you read the Bible and Koran? It's fucking day and night.
>>7925334
It wasn't the arabs
it was the iranians
>>7928076
Then saying "there is no opposition" quite obviously means there were literally no conflicts between Islam and science
Step being naive senpai
>>7928468
When they're fundamentalist, they're indistinguishable except for the finer details
>>7928444
Butthurt fundamentalist kiddy fiddler detected
>>7927234
>>7927057
Is there even any documentation of Tao's actual religious beliefs? I remember searching his website. The most I saw indicating that he's an atheist are links on his website: one is to a site promoting religious tolerance, another to a website documenting the tension regarding natural selection, and another to 'skeptical resources on the web'. This is pretty telling. But not quite hard evidence. Anyways, Godel was a staunch theist. So was Einstein. So was Ramuchandran. So was Gauss. Leibniz. Newton. There's a lot of theists in mathematics.
>>7928592
>so was Einstein
>>7928604
?
Have you read much regarding his beliefs? He's recorded as saying "“I believe in Spinoza's God, who reveals Himself in the lawful harmony of the world, not in a God who concerns Himself with the fate and the doings of mankind... ". His belief in the 'lawful harmony' of the world, of laws as following necessity and of science as the enterprise of providing a completely structuralist and necessitarian account of events basically explains his epistemological issues regarding quantum mechanics. Go read your Sam Harris elsewhere and assume all religious beliefs must take the form of what you see in Sunday school.
>>7925334
If I had to put it down to one specific event, it'd be the Mongols sacking Baghdad. It was such a catastrophic event that there's nothing else to say about it.
It wasn't Islam, really. Islam got less in the way of scientific discovery than, say, Catholicism did. All the people saying that alternative forms of thought were crudely crushed are completely ignorant. There was a form of neo-Aristotelianism floating around, propounded by very renowned scholars (al-Farabi, Avicenna), and that wasn't dealt with legally. Truth is, is that for the majority of the later caliphates (that is, those following the era of Muhammad), the rulers were very ignorant regarding what happened outside the walls of their palace, and the title of Caliphate meant little more than legitimacy of a position they seized with blood. So it wasn't by the rulers but by the community that Sharia was implemented. It's very important to understand this, since basically the converse is true today; Back 1300 years ago, the leaders weren't spiritual leaders. But now they are. But they're both fighting for political ends. It's just that before they didn't need religion, but now they do.
Islam is a rational religion in the sense that, properly speaking, it doesn't see itself as a religion. The word itself means 'submission to God'. Acknowledging Muhammad as the messenger just means knowing that he came down telling us to worship God. The Qu'ran says very little of ritualistic beliefs and behaviour and instead talks about the nature of God and the Hereafter. It's important to note that the Qu'ran says a lot condemning idolatry. The idea is is that submitting to God doesn't mean following by rote (as that is idolatrous), but rather an existential acknowledgement (which signifies true submission). It's why there's so much emphasis upon the Sunnah; Of following your life like something to be experienced.
>>7928661
>Islam is a rational religion in the sense that, properly speaking, it doesn't see itself as a religion.
W-what?
>The Qu'ran says very little of ritualistic beliefs and behaviour and instead talks about the nature of God and the Hereafter.
What are Hadiths?
In fact it is very very ritualstic.
Islam is literally a religion. Only because you translate it to "devotion of god" doesn't mean it changes anything about that. It continues the line of Abraham and prophet who spread the message of god. I can't imagine it can get more religious than that
>Hawking and Mlodinow, in the chapter of their book called “The Theory of Everything,” quote Albert Einstein: “The most incomprehensible thing about the universe is that it is comprehensible.” In response, Hawking and Mlodinow offer this crashing banality: “The universe is comprehensible because it is governed by scientific laws; that is to say, its behavior can be modeled.” Later, the authors invite us to give ourselves a collective pat on the back: “The fact that we human beings — who are ourselves mere collections of fundamental particles of nature — have been able to come this close to an understanding of the laws governing us and our universe is a great triumph.” Great triumph or no, none of this addresses Einstein’s paradox, because no explanation is offered as to why our universe is “governed by scientific laws.”
http://www.thenewatlantis.com/publications/the-folly-of-scientism
E. is right indeed. The gap has widened in a century. hawking is just like the dawkins of physics
people think that the foremost questions in science is what is space, time, temperature, quarks and so on. No, the sole crucial and urgent question is why the humanity is able to predict [more or less] through induction , itself formalized via the rules of inferences.
[and also, why the humanity believes that to offer some mechanical model is knowledge about the world]
Doesn't Islam say to kill disbelievers and lock women in a room if they don't act to your liking?
Why are there rational Engineers, as well as some scientists, who behave like normal people, adopting modern values...
...except for when it comes to some old texts they turn off rationality completely and insist those texts are more than some thousand year old guide lines made for a completely different context, cooked up by some ruling class people to keep their society in line and effort.
Why identify with some religion or whatever, why not just take with you the parts that are sensible to todays world, take the morals you agree with?
>>7925650
Haha fellow Arab here. This is all totally accurate. I also noticed that people try to find an easy way out, they don't seek to challenge themselves and just do enough for the bare minimum. There is no respect for education here.
>>7928468
Hahah, are you being serious?
>>7929020
he is, and I support his claim.
I politely suggest that you gather information on the topic.
>>7925356
this image is such bullshit
>>7925334
>mfw /pol/ is more active on /sci/ than /sci/ is
it is against national security to give them grant money
Since about the year 1000 Occasionalism has been the dominant school of thought in Islam. Meaning anything that happens is a direct action of god. This implies there are no physical laws, it just appears so because god does things consistently. Physics is haram in Islam.
>>7929284
>people can only post on one board in a given period of time
this shit needs to stop, fucking newfags and redditfags. lurk more and stfu.
>>7925660
>Many religions believe in oneness of God but what a Muslim really is - is a person who believes that Muhammad was a prophet of God. People who believe in God are blasphemers if they do not believe in Muhammad. There the divide between metaphysical philosophy and bullshit gets drawn.
I'm not even muslim and easily triggered but congratulations, you did it with your ignorance.
>>7930028
I'm not usually triggered but you really did it with your shitpost, congratulations.
>>7928661
dumbest post here.
Islam destroyed some of the oldest Universities in the world. Islam actively destroyed scientific knowledge.
>>7929041
Same could be said for this whole thread tripfriend :^)
Really though, discussion of the islamic golden age, while a nice topic, belongs on /his/.
>>7925660
1)
> blasphemers if they don't believe in Mohammad
No, only those who aren't Jewish nor Christian (2 of the three 'people of the book' that Mohammad tolerated). Pagans get killed.
I wouldn't call Islam rational. Maybe for it's time, compared to the Tanakh and Bible, but it's way outdated now.
2) the Ottomans preserved the ancient Greek philosophy and Roman laws. The Catholics at the time 'Holy non Roman empire' wanted to scrap it all in favor of Christian 'law and logic'.
Wouldn't call it a casuality but they did help technically
>>7925334
On of my professors always told me that people do not lose education but they give it away. So the arabs basically said `Let's fuck sheep instead of advancing in science` I guess.
>>7928468
Your one of those faggots who jacks off flipping pages in church and never read the bible from beginning to end.
Both are horrible books. The Koran is mildly better.
>>7925418
This is an important answer. It was after the Mongols had sacked and pillaged pretty much every center of learning in the Middle East did they begin to fall behind technology wise. Baghdad was the place to go if you wanted to be a scholar, and then it was burned to the ground.
>>7930898
>Yeah Christians did that too dumbass.
No it didn't. Stop reading reddit for historical information.
>>7930959
You're the only one here who uses that site you faggot.
Here's 2)
1) library of Alexandria (work done there was considered heresy for questioning the permanence of the stars). Among the rediscovered millennia later: robotics (primitive steam technology), idea that EARTH is A NAVIGABLE SPHERE, gears, heliocentric universe models, etc...
2: ALL MESO/LATIN AMERICA (among the rediscovered centuries later: cataract surgery, rubber, island construction methods, hydroponics, bug repellent, etc...)
>muh chrstns muh bible
Come on cuck.
Learn to research
>>7930987
>idea that EARTH is A NAVIGABLE SPHERE
That is a myth cooked up in the 19th century to be used as atheist propaganda.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myth_of_the_flat_Earth
http://www.veritas-ucsb.org/library/russell/FlatEarth.html
>No one before the 1830s believed that medieval people thought that the earth was flat.
>The idea was established, almost contemporaneously, by a Frenchman and an American. One was Antoine-Jean Letronne (1787-1848), an academic of strong antireligious prejudices who had studied both geography and patristics and who cleverly drew upon both to misrepresent the church fathers and their medieval successors as believing in a flat earth, in his On the Cosmographical Ideas of the Church Fathers (1834). The American was no other than our beloved storyteller Washington Irving (1783-1859), who loved to write historical fiction under the guise of history. His misrepresentations of the history of early New York City and of the life of Washington were topped by his history of Christopher Columbus (1828). It was he who invented the indelible picture of the young Columbus, a "simple mariner," appearing before a dark crowd of benighted inquisitors and hooded theologians at a council of Salamanca, all of whom believed, according to Irving, that the earth was flat like a plate. Well, yes, there was a meeting at Salamanca in 1491, but Irving's version of it, to quote a distinguished modern historian of Columbus, was "pure moonshine. Washington Irving, scenting his opportunity for a picturesque and moving scene," created a fictitious account of this "nonexistent university council" and "let his imagination go completely...the whole story is misleading and mischievous nonsense."
>The answer is that the falsehood about the spherical earth became a colorful and unforgettable part of a larger falsehood: the falsehood of the eternal war between science (good) and religion (bad) throughout Western history.
>>7930987
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Destruction_of_the_Library_of_Alexandria
I know it's >wikipedia, but still, the library was destroyed quite a few times, and your so called ideas (robotics? please, read on https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aeolipile, again, wiki, but it's well sourced, it's not like history is a science anyways) Furthermore, when you talk about the navigable sphere thing everyone knew the earth was spherical, on it moving, you too should read on that theory. There is a reason that the Ptolomeic model was accepted so quickly and effectivly: The math worked, and accurate predictions were possible. It wasn't until Kepler (who was just 11 years older than muh Gallileo, who's model wasn't that much better and was whose argument was based on philosophical principle) discovered that stars had mesurable paralax that the scientific community (and the religious one too) abandoned the Ptolomeic model. Do also consider that Kepler was contemporary to Newton. Furthermore, most latin codexes were recorded by missionaries that learned the language and translated oral history and the surviving writing some of the most prominent mesoamerican civs had.
>>7930987
Note again:
> libraries, knowledge of Mesoamerica
Both destroyed by Christians.
1) Christian followers of Cyril who flayed the flesh from Hypatia's bones (last female/worker there) and dragged her body on a chariot until she was done.
2) Spaniard Inquisition (The Holy of The Tribunal of The Inquisition of Spain). Burnt down all libraries and said Fuck knowledge cause, non Christian explanations for the Mesoamerican rubber shoes, rubber soles and medicine was blasphemous heresy.
>>7925334
Basically it came down to more or less radicalization of Islam worse than it already was. It went from being science was separate from religion to that science was completely against religion in the eyes of the Imams and the society as a whole.
They never really recovered from that.
>>7931001
So Eratosthenes is fake you say?
Also, we have records from Natives, priests and soldiers during colonization.
You really coming at me with 'one guy made it all up'
>>7931015
No, learn to read, he is saying that the information that Eratothenes layed down waas public knowledge since the Midde Ages.
In fact, Colombus was rejected from courts because his calculations were bogus and disagreed with those of Eratothenes and further philosophers (Baby-modo source cause it seems you can't read shit: http://www-istp.gsfc.nasa.gov/stargaze/Scolumb.htm), also, again, read on the destruction of the library, the worse burning was done by Julius Caesar, after that, most of it's books were relocated or rewritten else were.
>>7931015
>So Eratosthenes is fake you say?
I know you are 12 but at least try to read properly.
>>No one before the 1830s believed that medieval people thought that the earth was flat.
Everyone knew the world was round. We didn't lose that knowledge when Pagans and Muslims burnt Alexandria. It's the concept that "people in the dark ages thought the earth was flat" that is a myth.
>>7931025
>I know you're 12
Ok you got me. I'm just used to the hostility of /b and /tv
Your link didn't work for some reason but I found it elsewhere.
Minus one, doesn't effect the rest. Also to be precise, Erat. Calculated the size with less than a one percent error. That's still useful info that had to be rediscovered.
>>7931004
By robotics I meant the original def (inanimate objects doing work humans would have)
http://www.ancient-origins.net/ancient-technology/ancient-invention-steam-engine-hero-alexandria-001467
Also, modern historians believe many of the codices show signs of being edited.
That's in addition to other things such as the library of Nezahualcoyotl, Mayan and etc. books which were lost forever.
>>7931071
:/
*robotics I meant inanimate objects doing human work, like slaves....*
Fixed
>>7925334
Religion.
There it is.
>>7925418
this
any other answer is incorrect
>>7931080
They were religious back then you fucktard.
>>7931071
Again, didn't had to be rediscovered, was common knowledge, and the people that did shit estimates could be called out on that. Furthermore, the Mayan civilization was pretty much dead by the time the spaniards arrived:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palenque
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mayapan
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chichen_Itza
All burnt to a crisp before the spaniards.
The library of Nezahualcoyotl was a tragic loss, indeed, but again, it wasn't burnt by inquisitors or anything, it was a casualty of warfare, like so many other lost libraries. His son, and many Texcocan intelectuals survived to bring the wisdom of the Triple Aliance to spanish priests that wished to record the lost knowledge, but I do agree that the translated codexes were edited, but that is a simple byproduct of the act of handcoping, no "copy" was perfect, and indeed, the priests did inject dogma into some of them. This does not mean that all their wisdom and science was lost to us, as such, we have a pretty good idea of mesoamerican history, at least where there were surviving cities. Also, do note that it was a common tradition to burn cities (and their libraries) in mesoamerica, most unearthed cities are burnt to crisp when arqueollogists find them, many agree that civil strife was the cause.
>>7931071
>That's still useful info that had to be rediscovered
No it didn't. Columbus was just a dumbass who thought his math was better than everyone else's and everyone called him out for being the dumbass he was at the time. The fear wasn't that he'll fall off the earth but run out of provisions before reaching India or China. He just got fucking lucky that he stumbled on a new fucking content before his men mutinied.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voyages_of_Christopher_Columbus#Background_to_the_voyages
>>7931098
>>7931115
Ok minus a whole point not half. I Like learning new things, this place is alright
>>7931098
Source the city burning? Never heard about it. I know they had farming burning methods but I never heard of city burning. That being said, I know the least about the Mayan of the commonly studied civs in the region.
Also, two of those places did have populations but as you said, Maya were in decline. Nezahualcoyotl's library was killed as a by product but others weren't.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diego_de_Landa
There was explicit burning of books/knowledge done by the Spaniards there. Commissioned often by the Priests.
That shouldn't be surprising, the Inquisition did really odd things like ban Amaranth cereal because they thought the foods the natives made from it was heresy, regardless that they weren't drugs.
>>7931098
I'm not the guy you're responding to nor am I a part of this conversation but there's some things worth pointing out.
It was also Spanish tradition to burn and destroy mesoamerican cultural objects. For instance after they forced the Triple Alliance population into slavery they had them destroy the cities, bury them, and then build new Spanish style cities on top of it. Keep in mind that Tenochtitlan, one of the cities on lake Texcoco, was the biggest mesoamerican city at the time so this was no small feat. The Spaniards were known for doing this so that it would be easier to enforce the Spanish culture and religion onto the slaves. Other things they did was banning the populace from worshiping old gods or passing on their cantos to the next generation. Note that the Triple Alliance people didn't typically transfer information by writing but rather transferred it through songs that had been passed down for generations (there was even a compulsory school system that everyone had to attend until a certain age where amongt other things songs of history, culture, and religion were taught).
Now, this is all in the context of a post-war enslaved people situation, but the Spanish were also known to use similar tactics during war. Destroying religious, cultural, and historical objects were merely a war tactic to the Spaniards, they were not an unfortunate accident as your post construes.
Furthermore, the Maya did have a writing system and did transfer information using it. You are correct in that they had a habit of abandoning cities (either to civil war or resource exhaustion) but that doesn't mean they were gone. Even now there are Maya people all over Central America.
(cont.)
>>7931188
In the post-war era Diego de Landa in particular gathered up all known remaining Maya texts and had them burned. Here the details seem to vary, the general consensus is that it was thousands of books burned in a giant pyre as there were also reports that the fire could be seen from Cuba, however a few authors argue that it was only a few books.
Whichever the case, only three Mayan texts remain.
With regards to the Spanish priests coming in to preserve knowledge, such claims are dubious. You are correct that the Spanish priests did write codices with information relayed by the Spaniards but such texts, especially with regards to cultural and religious matters, have a heavy bias since they're written from the Spanish worldview for a Spanish audience. Furthermore, much of the knowledge just couldn't be recorded (at no fault to the priests) since much of the knowledge just wasn't seen as relevant (what priest is going to ask a Triple Alliance geometer to explain their philosophy of mathematics?). I think it is especially telling that in modern times we know a [math]lot[/math] more about Triple Alliance culture than we know about Mayan culture given that the Mayans stored information through writing and the Triple Alliance people stored it through songs.
It is well known that the main use of this knowledge, by the Spaniard priests. was for coming up with new ways to convert the indigenous peoples to Christianity. There's a large mural named "The History of Mexico" on the wall of the Mexican Presidential Palace painted by Diego Rivera. The Spanish priests are depicted abusing the indigenous multiple times throughout the mural. In one section a priest is shown baptizing indigenous people while holding up indigenous religious symbols to convince the people that they're worshiping their own gods, this represents the conversion methods of the Spanish priests.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_History_of_Mexico_(mural)
>>7931188
ya no ur wrong
>>7931129
The slash-and-burn farming techniques used by the Maya are significantly different from those used elsewhere.
The idea is that the soil below a forest is very nutrient rich thanks to an ecosystem that has developed in the soil. By employing a slash-and-burn technique where said forest is burned down one is then able to access and grow crops on the rich soil below for many generations (at least until soil health drops down too far).
In a typical nomad situation a group will just move on and employ slash and burn techniques elsewhere once the soil is no longer healthy enough.
In modern farming the soil ecosystem is entirely replaced by fertilizers produced in industry.
In the Mayan farming system, the fields (milpas) went through a 10 year period. They would be cultivated for two years and then (before the soil health dropped too low) they would be allowed to rest for 8 years (during which they just grew wild and restored the ecosystem in the soil). So, while many fields were "owned" at a time, only a fifth would actually be cultivated. The end result is that the system is self-sustaining and has no need for fertilizers or expansion to new lands.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milpa
The Maya also farmed in terraces and in raised fields (full of water and fish). Milpas were also used in other parts of mesoamerica.
The Triple Alliance people also had a neat farming technique where they built a thing called a Chinampa (like a giant mud island built on weed and straw with trees securing the corners). Since the ground in these things was so soft then you could plant seeds in it by just using a stick.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinampa
I literally work with a Saudi Arabian guy who is studying his PhD in chemistry and takes breaks 5 times a day to roll his rug out and pray on the lab floor.
>>7931249
Well, at least he isn't taking breaks to masturbate to anime.
>>7931249
You guys spend like 20 hours a day in the lab?
>>7931254
#BUUURN
Bartolomé de las Casas, Antonio de Montesinos, Juan Quevedo, the Bishop of Darien, Enriquillo
"Do you know why they do this?
We do not know. But it may be that they are by nature wicked and cruel.
No, they do not act only because of that, but because they have a god they greatly worship and want us to worship that god, and that is why they struggle with us and subject us and kill us"
- Hatuey
Las Casas:
"These people are the most guileless, devoid of wickedness, the most obedient and faithful to their masters and the Spanish Christians"
"They took infants from their mothers' breasts, snatching them by the legs and pitching them headfirst against the crags or snatched them by the arms and threw them into the rivers, roaring with laughter and saying as the babies fell into the water, "Boil there, you offspring of the devil!" Other infants they put to the sword along with their mothers and anyone else who happened to be nearby. They made some low wide gallows on which the hanged victim's feet almost touched the ground, stringing up their victims in lots of thirteen, in memory of Our Redeemer and His twelve Apostles, then set burning wood at their feet and thus burned them alive. To others they attached straw or wrapped their whole bodies in straw and set them afire. With still others, all those they wanted to capture alive, they cut off their hands and hung them round the victim's neck, saying, "Go now, carry the message," meaning, Take the news to the Indians who have fled to the mountains. They usually dealt with the chieftains and nobles in the following way: they made a grid of rods which they placed on forked sticks, then lashed the victims to the grid and lighted a smoldering fire underneath, so that little by little, as those captives screamed in despair and torment, their souls would leave them...."
"Then they behaved with such shamelessness that the most powerful ruler of the islands had to see his own wife raped by a Christian officer."
>>7930898
>Yeah Christians did that too dumbass.
Why are you comparing with Christianity? That is just whataboutism. No one cares what Christianity did, we are examining Islam here.
>>7931265
>>7931249
That is exactly the same in my old lab where some Saudi would go roll the rug out every day.
I had some real strange conversations with that idiot. He believes that evolution is a lie hatched up by the west. Made me wonder if people can carry out science without the least bit of understanding of science.
>>7931278
The best way to examine something is by putting something of a similar caliber next to it and drawing a comparison
>>7929189
can you tell me more about it. because i do believe it's true. i'm not xenophobic at all so you do have a chance to change the mind of an anon today
>>7931249
Kek. I was in Germany on a holiday and I saw a guy laying out a rug on grass, next to a bridge, near a public square and praying. It was christmas time and thousands of people were walking by.
>>7931288
Going back to the earlier point, so you agree that Islam caused large scale damage to accumulated knowledge?
Do you know about enlightenment?
>>7931288
This.
>be Amerindian.
>Christian man tries to convince me to hate the Muslim man. "look at all these horrible things the Muslim man has done in the past".
>mfw these are all things the Christian man did to us.
>>7931295
a common theme for Abrahamic religions.
>>7931293
>so you agree that Islam caused large scale damage to accumulated knowledge?
Partially. They saved old Greek texts and such. Thanks to them we have Plato and Aristotle, etc. It was great at the beginning, see for example the House of Wisdom. But that was a long time a go. Something went wrong and they have spent the past millennia or so ignoring fundamental knowledge.
>>7931295
Lel. The exact same thing happened to me as well.
>>7928974
>hawking is just like the dawkins of physics
Holy fuck mai nigga, I've been saying this for years. I've read most of his published work, including re-releases of novels like ABHOT, and I've always felt like he was over-rated. He is to Physics what kanye west is to hiphop. Someone who can't fill the shoes of the ones who came before him, but cast as the savior because nothing better is going on at the moment. I bet you his exposure, and related book deals would be less likely had he not had the sad but morbidly interesting health problems. Capitalize on whatcha got I guess.
I really disagree with his notion that the 4th Dimension is Time. It subtly throws out the possibility of other physical dimensions of space (just as the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd are unique). So essentially denying anything more "spatially-complex" than what we have already observed is possible.
I think Time is something else, but certainly related. I also found Flatland a much more interesting book for understand space, fundamentally. It isn't a serious novel though, more of a parable to explain some ideas.
>>7931298
What was gained is the silver lining in your argument.
To understand what you postulate we must question if these texts would have been lost in the first place if Islam never emerged. Whatever the answer might be, what we notice is that the regions under Islamic rule have not contributed a millennia or more and it could very well be due to nature of the uniqueness of the Islamic faith.
>>7931304
I'm not sure, I'm not a historian. I thought it was a commonly accepted fact that they saved ancient works while the Europeans shat on the streets at them time.
But, I tend to agree that it could be due the intrinsic nature of Islam, as to why they haven't contributed anything for like a millennia.
For comparison christianity grew under the shadow of the Roman empire. It was seen as a better alternative as I'm sure it must have been for a century or two. Once it came out of the shadow and became the dominant player on the field it started playing irrationally.
There must be some break even point where a specific dogma turns from being beneficial to detrimental.
>>7931312
>There must be some break even point where a specific dogma turns from being beneficial to detrimental
I think you'll find this is wholly dependent on the types of people in the religion and not so much on what it says. You could have people who are rational and peaceful in a religion that was blood thirsty violence, or have murderous zealots in a religion that emphasizes peace and love above all else. The latter has more examples spring to my mind, take that as you will. I would assume it means people are usually shit, no matter what they come from.
>>7925501
See this often among posters of a religious tendency, saying "muslim/christian/jew/etc here" before writing.
Here's a heads up, when you do that, us enlightened secularists read the rest of what you write as a Tard moan. Or a autistic squeal. You're essentially saying, "retard here".
their religion and ethic culture is a limiting component nowadays. also, they don't have the infrastructure european and american science has.
>>7925334
the golden age is a myth mane. sure some of them did some shit in the caliphate, but they were not arabs, they were persians, and greeks and shieet.
their scientific achievments were just replicas of greek, persian and assyrian ideas
>>7927323
>i did say it was anecdotal did i not
Yes and then you went on to try to generalise it.
>I admitted I am being an idiot
>so you cant call me idiot.
>>7927066
>all things are mortal, but the Jews (...)
O rly?
>>7927075
>not necessarily aggravating non-jews
Spoken like a true goy
>>7931590
>believing in Jews propaganda
>>7931286
>Made me wonder if people can carry out science without the least bit of understanding of science.
yes they can. Feynman, Hawking are the most famous scientist who are not able to think outside a graduate level of their fields.
In fact, it is even detrimental for scientists to focus on why they do things, on the goals of their works. They even despise this and claim that these question slow science down...
>>7931596
Can confirm on Feynman. I watched a video of a lecture he gave in 70ies or 80ies. There were people asking him questions like imagine if there was things going at the speed of light, what would happen. Or imagine another universe with different laws of physics where this or that happens. He would promptly shut then down by saying he will confine himselve to the laws of physics and will not assume such outlandish ideas.
>>7931642
And he was right. Anything could happen if you're no longer confined by the laws of reality. Pulling shit out of your ass is the mathematicians job.
>>7931249
There's a math phd student at my uni who does this in his office. I know because I hear him chanting in arabic. Oddly, I enjoy listening.
>>7930926
>being wrong
Bible > Koran, new testament is way better
>>7929814
>people's opinions can't be mostly representative of one board primarily
>>7932264
Yup confirmed fapping retard who never read the book.
>muh new testament
Retard please
>>7931582
Lol can say they Greeks and others just copied preBabylon, git out
>>7932368
Don't be salty that your books shitty Muhammed, the Bible is just a better, more fun and pleasant read
>>7925334
>What changed since the golden age
The lack of easy access to christian slaves to do everything for them.
>>7932379
I'm an atheist that's read both cover to cover.
Picked wrong guy retard.
The Bible has about 1200 pages on how to slaughter goats, harass nonbelievers, Moses' shitty laws and end time prophecies. The end result of Christianity is the destruction of the entire world and reconstruction of Jerusalem to the specified dimensions. If you read the NT or OT you world know that but you sit around flipping pages convincing yourself you have any sense of what's going on with respect to scriptural continuity.
The Koran is the same shit minus 700 pages, with somewhat better everyday bread on table commands (no usury, if your nonbeliever friends are mocking Islam just leave and return when they talk about something else, says explicitly slavery is wrong although giving instructions (compared to the bible's instructions and never condemning the practice)...Jesus even said he didn't come to bring peace, but to turn families against eachother.
Seriously stop sucking your pastors dick, read the book in full and learn to think for yourself
We can argue about details but objectively, bar none, the Quran just makes it above the Bible.
Only non retards who've read both books from beginning to end can know this, your opinion is irrelevant until you've done so.
>>7932402
Source for the end results with New Jerusalem dimensions : all of Zephaniah and Revelations.
Jesus quotes are easy to find
>>7925334
What about this guy?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abdus_Salam
>>7925550
>Implying Christian religions willingly accepted reformation
>Implying religious authorities did not torture and execute scientists for going against the accepted biblical science
>Implying secularism was achieved without Europe being plunged into endless religious war over disagreements over religious scripture.
It's called "The Dark Ages" for a reason. The Middle East hasn't gone through the process yet.
>>7928592
Newton spent his last years frantically searching the bible for hidden messages. He was in fact, an autist. He did usher in a new scientific era so this fact is often glossed over in academia.
>>7931561
>autistic squeal
Top kek.
>>7931590
>>7932402
religion is a coping mechanism once you face your failure of your life, just like other contrived fantasizes, your faith in the scientific method included.
Religions are meant to leave material-bodily hedonism, travels, concerts, foods, sex and so on, for a spiritual hedonism, through prayers for theists and mediation for atheists.
Plenty of material hedonist love to think of themselves as less hedonistic than they are, since it improves their hedonism in thinking that they are not animals...most people who claim to be religious are not all, it is just the way they are.
In buddhism, you even leave this spiritual hedonism, after you have gained it, which is called jhanas, since you understand that this bliss from prayers, which is just a great, but not perfect concentration-stilness, are not personal nor permanent and that you are still prone to avidity and aversion.
>>7933381
>decades after the internet enabled all to easily learn
>people are still this misinformed over basic history
There's literally no excuse for this kind of shit.
There were no "dark ages", Christians didn't kill scientists right and left, there never was a "biblical science", and the protestant "reformation" was a horrible set back for Europe.
>>7933505
Read the part about the "Thirty Year's War". Don't assume anything on the internet is true just because it exists; rule 34 motherfucker. Also,
>Galileo was sentenced and died in house arrest at the hands of the inquisition of Pope Urban VIII
>Bruno and Servetus were burned at the stake
>Copernicus had to wait until he damn near croaked because he feared religious pushback
>>7933557
>bruno
>a scientists
why hello there black science man
>>7928888
where in the qu'ran does it contain hadiths LOL
>>7933570
We wuz kings bruh.
>>7933557
>Servetus
>He participated in the Protestant Reformation, and later developed a nontrinitarian Christology. Condemned by Catholics and Protestants alike, he was arrested in Geneva and burnt at the stake as a heretic by order of the city's Protestant governing council.
They sure are out to get dem scientists, I tell you what.
bilal was black
berbers today are quite good
>>7933579
let him.
biggots gonna bigget
