Will we ever be able to revive cryogenically frozen people or is it all just a giant waste of money?
The processes behind reviving someone in such a way are still far from reality and the methods that we go to cryogenically freeze shit today are not good for tissue to begin with.
We have no use for cryogenically freezing people and reviving them to begin with. The only realistic application is long term space travel or some shit like that and we're better off trying to get shit like the meme engine working.
So the only people left outside of that who would give a remote shit about that specific application in cryogenics is the industry of rich assholes who want to be frozen before they die of cancer so they can come out 200+ years to get "cured" and I assure you nobody working in that "field" gives a remote shit about successfully reviving someone from long term cryogenic storage.
You're basically better off waiting for long term changes in medicine and science that allow much longer lifespans with in turn result in a better chance of you being around for further semi-immortality.
>>7655467
I believe, Anon.
If it truly was a giant waste of money the government would be doing it by now.
>>7655503
>If it truly was a giant waste of money the government would be doing it by now.
DARPA invested in it for years
>>7655503
>If it truly was a giant waste of money the government would be doing it by now.
kek
>>7655484
You could skip a shitload of typing by pointing out freezing destroys all cell membranes and the membranous organelles within the cells.
OP, you might as well be cremated and hope somebody can revive your ashes later.
At least they don't have to be kept frozen.
>>7655484
>the industry of rich assholes who want to be frozen before they die of cancer so they can come out 200+ years to get "cured" and I assure you nobody working in that "field" gives a remote shit about successfully reviving someone from long term cryogenic storage
this, nobody is interested in reviving decrepit old billionaires 100 years after their fortune ran out. God damn pansies be like Khufu and spend your money on a badass tomb or something.
However cryogenics does have a very good legit use, temporarily freezing those with brain trauma till they get to the hospital. I believe that is making good progress.
The entire issue with cryogenics is that it relies on the idea that at some point in the future every aspect of the revival process is available.
Legally healthy people are not put under cryogenics. Fuck you aren't supposed to put people who are alive in general. You have to wait until their legally dead.
So the issue isn't just "can we revive someone cryogenically frozen" (which we also fucking can't) the issue is can you solve all the health issues at once of the person frozen and being frozen in of itself is basically you being as good as dead.
You have X cancer/problem not solved by transplant/etc and freeze yourself for a cure. Wow suddenly 200 years from now we have a reasonable "cure" for X but advances in cryogenics means you're still fucking dead since nobody can unfreeze your corpse. Let's say 500 years from now they're able to successfully revive someone being frozen... and the catch is that it only works on people frozen with "modern" techniques that started 480 years ago.
It relies on cryogenics and medicine reaching X amount of progress and even then cryo right now basically just makes you stay dead forever.
>>7655525
no it relies on being stupid enoug to believe strangers will keep you frozen for 500 years for free. Most monarchs havent even managed to get their devoted populace to even keep their tombs maintained for that long.
Nope.
>>7655514
>You could skip a shitload of typing by pointing out freezing destroys all cell membranes and the membranous organelles within the cells.
Cryogenics has still seen progress in terms of how the tissue (you) is treated and stored. Right now it's still effectively a death sentence (I mean you're already dead but still) but there's nothing to say it can't work in the future.
The biggest problem is that if it ever worked it would work on a basis of people who have been frozen the latest with the latest technology are the ones who can reasonably be "revived".
The earlier and longer you stay frozen the likelihood of you being able to be successfully revived decreases (right now it's at 0% to begin with but still). You have to take into account some organization willing to maintain your body, that the "revival" process evolves faster than your body degrades and overcomes the damage done by the initial freezing, and the reason for your freezing is solved in someway.
Right now it is a hard no fucking way but we'll see.
>>7655539
It's not free, a monthly charge of ~$150 for neuro cryo, or ~$800 for full body cryo is typical, on top of the initial procedure which is several tens of thousands i believe.
Some newer freezing techniques have emerged that stop ice crystals forming in cells... so, we might be able to start freezing people without them turning into bloody pulps.
Though it has better use for organ storage at the moment.
>all the people trying to act superior itt
yes it'll hardly work. yes it's risky. yes it's expensive.
no you haven't a better alternative.
What would the actual purpose of that be? Why would we need people from the past?
>>7656820
Why not? The purpose will be saving their lives. This may be strange today, in our barbaric era, but things could change.
Has there been animal tests? I wonder if the animals would be alive for half a second after being unfrozen.
>>7656820
We don't.
As stated above there are three main groups of people who go under/would go under cryogenic freezing (and we're talking full body/brain cryo not cryo for organs).
Rich individuals creating a private program trying to stave off their deaths. There's no "need" for this but they fund it out of their own pockets.
Applications in space travel which is pretty self explanatory.
Then you have people who volunteer for it for the sake of advancing the study of it. The only incentive for reviving them is for the sake of the field itself.
So there isn't really any big push to put the general populous on ice every time they die in hopes of bringing them back to life and there's no real need for it either. You have a private industry funded by the wealthy, a general attempt at it for the sake of science, and then a small attempt by the government for the specific use of space travel.
>>7655467
I know that all squirrel hibernate (not the same as torpor)! Wish there was a way I could experiment on people to induce a similar state.
How hard is it to get a baboon?
>>7655467
>Will we ever be able to [something]
yes.
>>7659071
Wow an optimist, so when will we get flying cars?
>>7659074
Before the end of time. Which is the upper time constraint of ever.
>>7657100
I distinctly remember reading about certain frogs that can be frozen solid, thawed, and be ok. They're native to a really cold climate, so it's an obvious survival strategy.
>>7655525
>can you solve all the health issues at once of the person frozen and being frozen in of itself is basically you being as good as dead.
A lot of the people who died from heart attacks in the 1950s or even some forms of cancer could easily be cured by medicine today.
The only real problems are:
1. how to avoid tissue destruction whilst frozen
2. why should we bother to unfreeze you even if we can? The company would already have your money, unless you plan to give them more upon recovery they might as well just leave you there and shrug.
>>7659074
>so when will we get flying cars?
About 1907.
>>7659093
>why should we bother to unfreeze you even if we can?
Why don't airlines just dump their passengers mid-flight to save fuel?
>>7659086
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wood_frog
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UuhEHNey37Q
So it seems they can't quite survive being frozen 100%, only up to 45% or so.
>>7659109
But we are not frogs.
If you can keep a man 45% frozen for 300 years maybe that is all you need. No need for it to be cryogeniclly cold, right?
Won't be long til we can scan brains, so long as the structure of the neurons is still distinguishable they can be digitized.
>>7659139
Anyone curious enough to ask about cryonics probably wants to be revived as the person they were, not a computer or some kind of brain-bot.
>>7659106
The planes can be used again.
Expecting to see your friend in 3 hours means you'll be suspicious when he doesn't show up in 6.
Expecting to see your friend again in 90 years means nobody gives a shit what you think or say when he never comes back.
>>7659139
Fuck that. People want to be revived, not cloned.
>>7659143
When you are completely dead in between anyway I don't see why you'd be less "the same person" when simulated than when revived physically, considering the scan is accurate enough.
IMO that also goes for living persons but that would rustle some jimmies on a religious board like /sci/.
>>7659149
This, hopefully they'll invent a way to reach through the screen and bitch slap him. A copy is not you, it's a clone of a dead guy.
>>7659149
>muh identity
>>7659152
If you don't see it you are retarded and you should stay on lesswrong. Case closed.
>>7659152
As someone who has been legally dead I can tell you this is very wrong.
He is descending into mental masturbation now, hop off this train before it derails.
>>7659093
>2. why should we bother to unfreeze you even if we can? The company would already have your money, unless you plan to give them more upon recovery they might as well just leave you there and shrug.
Well the idea would be that basically everyone related to the cryogenic company keeping people frozen when there was a readily available revival system would basically be holding frozen people hostage and that sounds kind of like a criminal charge.
I suppose it would come down to them lobbying the fact that "it's still not perfected can't risk it" but after a while they'd be under fire.
>>7659074
We already do. The existence of something is not negated by the fact it isn't available for commercial use.
>>7659152
You wont fucking wake up in the computer.
Theres no difference between starting the simulation of your brain before you die vs after you die.
Its not you in either case. You wouldnt share the experience of the computerized you if it was started when you were alived, and you wouldnt wake up in the computer if it was started after you died.
Its a clone.
>>7659208
Ignore the troll, don't take the bait.
Even if he is serious, his post really belongs in a philosophy thread.
>>7659208
You could argue it works if you were able to transfer every single neuron from your brain.
In theory, it's possible. Mechanistically, it's not possible.
If you could produce temperatures near Abs. Zero insanely quickly to stop water crystallization and render the system (the human body) to have only a tiny bit of entropy, and then you could somehow "thaw" the system in a similarly fast time period, then it would work. But of course, this is almost impossible. Producing low atomic movement on the order of milliKelvin is very tricky for us right now. There are liquid Helium methods that are promising (and work now on the small scale), utilizing a gradient between stable He isotopes in solution to produce osmosis, and henceforth temperature drop in a small area of the system, but this would almost never work on a large enough scale -- at least in the foreseeable future with our technology.
>>7659233
Interesting, I've never heard of this.
The method I was told about used some type of cryoprotectant, like biological antifreeze to reduce cell damage.
>>7659245
Yeah I've heard of that too. I'm working in a bacteriology lab now, we use cryoprotectants of all kinds to freeze bugs. It's a shame the cells in our tissues are nowhere near as resilient as those little shits.
>>7659249
It probably works better with microbiology then big critters like us because it's hard to get the cryoprotectant thoroughly infused where you need it.
>>7659230
>You could argue it works if you were able to transfer every single neuron from your brain.
That's the idea, yeah.
>>7659262
That's super duper pseudo science tho
>>7659256
>it's hard to get the cryoprotectant thoroughly infused where you need it
They now have a way to deliver drugs using ultrasound and microscopic bubbles that could do this, it was used on some cancer patients recently.
I doubt we're ever going to actually going to be able to revive people who are currently frozen. The current cryo methods are just way too damaging on you to ever be viable.
In the future there's a good chance but it comes down to that thing of "last one in, first one out".
even if it does work, it won't be them waking up. It would just be a person that has all of their memories and such, that thinks they are them. Its no different than saving your dna after you die and having you cloned in 1000 years
>>7659314
It is different. Ideally we should get to the point where the brain suffers little to no damage during the preservation procedure.
>>7657117
The 'need' is created by the amount of pp interested in it, there isn't no such thing as an intrinsic need.
The only way I see frezzing myself, is for a 5 years nap
>>7659323
The post you replied to was talking about the brain scan/clone idea not suspend animation like in OP's pic.
>>7655467
I think it's likely that we'll eventually work out a system of cold sleep, but it probably matters more how you freeze them than how you thaw them out.
We can certainly freeze individual cells and thaw them out again, even fetuses. The main problem with freezing a large mammal is one of heat transfer. You need to freeze cells quickly to stop their workings abruptly enough to leave them intact, but that can't happen when the heat has to pass through many layers of other cells.
Freezing whole human beings in condition to revive them may require extraordinary and lengthy preparations, such as insinuation of narrowly-spaced heat-transfer filaments through the whole body, or genetic modification of cells.
People frozen with past and current technology are just dead, though the corpse may be very well preserved.
Maybe who knows.
>>7656727
Damn, at that price 500 years of cryo is just shy of $5 million. Not bad, actually, considering how rich the people who are doing this probably are.
>>7659576
It's usually paid for all at once using life insurance in which the cryo company is the beneficiary
the minimum cost for full body preservation is $ 28 000 at Cryonics Institute.
You may want to pay a few thousands more for the deployment of a team, though. Depending on where you live, you may be able to do it for $ 30 000 - 35 000
>>7659600
>You may want to pay a few thousands more for the deployment of a team
Fuck that, I know a hospice that is nearby Alcor, I'll just spend my last years there with chubby CNAs in Loony Toons scrubs changing my diapers on a regular basis.
>>7659263
This thread is about fucking cryogenics don't assblast me for bringing in some more scifi pipe dreams pls n thx.
>>7659844
It's a thread about a specific pipe dream i.e. cryonics, not your retarded transhumanist fantasy.
GTFO.
>>7655514
>You could skip a shitload of typing by pointing out freezing destroys all cell membranes and the membranous organelles within the cells.
If you supercool the human body, it vitrifies and becomes a glass that doesn't rip cells to shreds.
>>7659844
>cryogenics
>>7660683
point is your fantasy doesn't even attemp to save people, which is kind of the goal of the entire thing
just write a book if you "want to be remembered" in some form. It is tested and will work.
>>7655514
>You could skip a shitload of typing by pointing out freezing destroys all cell membranes and the membranous organelles within the cells.
You could skip typing out this bullshit argument by learning that vitrification techniques bypass ice crystal formation and therefore retains cellular integrity.
>>7659233
what if you threw the body onto pluto? it would freeze fast enough no?
>>7659256
>it's hard to get the cryoprotectant thoroughly infused where you need it.
They put pumps in the circulatory system and run the antifreeze and coolant solutions through this, the vascular bed is quite sufficient to diffuse whatever solution to everywhere in the body.
At least that's the theory, because cryogenics is unregulated and lacks expertise and simple failsafe procedures.
A highschool dropout can be hired as a cryo technician, and if he intentionally fucks up or skips some steps in the cryofreezing protocol there's no legal responsibility for him, at worst he can be fired if someone finds out but there's a sever lack of testing and oversight to even detect these subpar procedures and this isn't theory, there's several failure reports where a fuckup have been detected, but given the lack of standardized controls and reporting the dark number can be unacceptably high.
Consider that medicine with all its fancy pants regulations and training requirement kills up to 200k-400k+ americans each year due to mistakes and you might get an idea how unreliable cryogenics can become due to practical shortcomings even if the theory and proper trial testing turns out to give good results.
Non-cryogenical preservation like plasticinization(doesn't allow for thawing though, only reconstruction) might be very more reliable due to the simpler procedures and room temperature storage possibility. But no company offers these service.
even if frozen flesh can NEVER be revived, it can be preserved till we perfect brain scanning and brain emulation software. I have to wonder what those minds will wake up to. Will they have legal rights? Or will they be treated as a machine, forced into slave labor to pay off the expenses of their "revival."
>>7660851
>forced into slave labor to pay off the expenses of their "revival."
Doubtful. You either have a private sector cryo lab that's not going to revive someone if there's no cash there to begin with or a research lab that will attempt it for the sake of science since the funds are already there.
>>7660855
AI slave trade is where the cash is at. These people are no longer technically human. They would technically be AI. If AI have no rights, then it would be perfectly legal AND profitable to download a frozen human, add some obedience sub routines, and sell them off to the highest bidder. Realistically though people would feel squeamish about buying an AI that use to be a person. So they'd probably take "personality elements" from many frozen brains and combine and tweak them into 1 AI. A middle ground between creating a fresh AI from scratch and just copying a dead human. But I'm not sure if dissecting the brain or souls of a bunch of humans and stitching them together like a Frankenstein is better or worse.
>>7660868
smbc related
>>7660868
nice sources, evidence and rigorous insight
>>7660806
>you freeze fast in vacuum
when will this meme die
you only lose heat due to your own blackbody radiation in vacuum, which is by no means fast
>>7660851
Stop forcing this meme you subhuman underage redditor little shit.
>>7660919
>meme
>subhuman
>underage
>reditor
Try hard detected.
Also, calling things a meme simply because you disagree with them is the worst meme ever.
>>7660942
You are actually the definition of tryhard, that was maybe your fifth post trying to force le uploading meme itt.
Also stop using gits pictures since you evidently don't understand it.
>>7655506
Yeah but that didn't save Sigint, now did it?
>>7660901
I'm not black though
>>7660942
Upgrade from no to maybe.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16403489
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16706656
Like every smart anon pointed out right now, you can only be frozen until you're "legally dead".
And that's the trick, being "dead" means your brain has been out of oxigen for around 8 minutes, so you're "brain dead" and your brain can no longer be repaired at all, and in that moment is when they can now freeze you.
So, even if they revive the body, your brain will be a potato and those who just froze their heads, well, that's a pretty good joke so far.
>>7664019
>And that's the trick, being "dead" means your brain has been out of oxigen for around 8 minutes, so you're "brain dead" and your brain can no longer be repaired at all,
being legally dead means your heart stops beating. In an ideal cryopreservation, cooling starts right at that moment, slowing down all biological processes in your body, brain decay as well. As you correctly point out, there is some minute without any sensible damage to the brain, so you've got time to do that.
Also, it's not like your brain rots istantly after that. It slowly goes from almost intact (a few minutes) to useless blob (24 hours), but we don't know what degree of damage could be reversed by future technology. Maybe 1/2 hour and your brain structure could still be recoverable, maybe 3 hours: we just don't know.
Obviously the more time will pass, the more your identity will start to fade. The ideal thing would be legal "cryosuicide", so that the operation is brought with virtually no delay, minimizing brain structure damage.
>>7655467
Cryonics should be illegal how can we stop people from encouraging this abomination?
>>7666081
Give everyone an example and show them how you properly kill yourself.
