Laws for victimless crimes should not exist. Argue against this.
Pirating is not victimless, give money.
>>28591277
what do you think are victimless crimes
>>28591277
There is always potential for any action to cause victimization. So there are certain crimes you can commit where it isn't certain that there is a victim, but there is still potential for a victim or victims in the future. I mean this kind of applies to everything and not just things that are illegal, but I think the idea is that illegal activities that are "victimless" are illegal because they have a higher chance of causing victimization as an indirect effect than other non-criminal activities
>>28591277
Laws are meant to maintain society, ergo "victimless" crimes could still harm society overall. Suppose I like to shoot up heroin, it's my body and all, right? But when I overdose, now I'm someone else's problem. I'm a burden on society, and a burden on the healthcare system. That is before even considering the fact that heroin addiction encourages antisocial behaviors like pety crime and larceny.
That said, plenty of other things harm society that aren't illegal. The same argument could be made for obesity, smoking cigs, heavy alcoholism.
And someone smoking a joint now and then in the privacy of their own home isn't hurting society. Cartels are. Giving people a crime record and locking up peaceful people ruins societies integrity, but it continues because it is profitable and convinient for those in power.
I don't expect any reform in our lifetime.
Just suicide faggot the law cant get you if you're dead
>>28591364
Consuming drugs, suicide, sodomy
>>28591277
Stfu pedoscum
>>28591698
But it costs taxpayers money when someone ods on drugs or commits suicide
>>28591277
Pedophile thread detected. Fuck off, kill yourself.
>>28591862
>>28591765
Check out these memesters
>>28591862
>>28591765
I was thinking he meant more like torrenting movies/music/games.
>>28591862
>>28591765
>smoking weed makes you a pedophile
>>28591793
Following that logic, driving should be illegal since taxpayers pay to maintain the roads etc
>>28591955
Shut up fatass roastie
>>28591639
>But when I overdose, now I'm someone else's problem.
This guy gets it. Nothing happens in a vaccuum in society, even if you're alone in your room.
meth isn't fair because it's literally too strong of a positive reinforcement
your brain would choose meth over literally every other thing in life, and society would just fall apart because nobody has any incentive to do anything other than meth
>>28591987
The financial gain from infrastructure far outweighs the cost of maintaining and implementing said infrastructure, you stupid roastie. You didn't follow any logic, females are incapable of doing so. That being said, it would be interesting to see a cost benefit analysis done on suicide. It would be one thing if most people who commit suicide were useless neets, but im under the impression that most are like, inundated middle class men.
>>28591793
Being obese costs taxpayers more money already but that's still somehow legal.
>>28592126
Yeah, being obese should be illegal, im not joking.
>>28592119
My point is that you are paying for these public services so that you, as well as everyone else, can use them
>>28592126
In Europe cigarettes and alcohol are heavily taxed and the money goes to public healthcare.
I don't get why fast food restaurants aren't.
>>28592046
Most meth heads are shit heads. I have a family member (woman) who abandoned her kids for meth. They are also stupid due to ruined dopamine neurons. Most of the scientific community does stims though, just smarter ones that have larger pros then cons, OP I think that's a victimless crime.
>>28592206
>ruined dopamine neurons
Yup that's exactly why, not the decrease in white brain matter or anything
>>28592206
What are we even discussing here? Using most drugs has a very legit, negative effect on society.
>>28591698
Broken families, suffering, HIV? I read yesterday that people who do lots of anal get bowel leakage later in life fairly commonly. Hahaha, die degenerates.
>>28592175
Its a pretty tangential point, if you can call it that. I kind of see what you're saying but the fact of the matter is that suicide and drug use is not considered beneficial to society, wheras transportation definitely is.
>>28592186
This. In our country, I think fast food and sweets companies are more avid suppliers of threats to public health than tobacco companies or alcohol suppliers.
>>28591277
98% of laws are put in place because because there was a victim.
>>28592206
Lots of these people in scientific circles actually use meth because it simply is the best known stimulant when dosed correctly and you make sure its pure.
>>28592284
I guess it depends on how you define "beneficial"
>>28591698
Suicide isn't victimless. Sodomy isn't victimless.
>>28591277
Just because you can't see a victim doesn't mean there isnt one
I will also posit that the victim is not necessarily one person but all of society
Harm based morality is fucking gay, kys
>>28592254
>die degenerates.
You words should be a crime. It surely makes victims.
>>28592296
I mean, I don't think of it as a punishment. It's more like "I choose to smoke, I'm now paying for my future healthcare". I'm fine with that, that seems fair to me.
I don't know why fat fucks don't have to pay for their healthcare.
>>28591469
The problem is that this logic could be used to outlaw literally everything, from adultery to posting violent pepes on 4chan.
>>28591639
If recreational opiate use was legalized Heroin would be of a more uniform purity as a result of corporations operating under a regulatory board producing it rather than some gooks/spics hidden deep within the jungle.
>>28592233
Well, not really. Certain drugs, sure. Like meth. Coffee, another stimulant, argueably cobtributes to society. Opium was used in Ancient Greece pretty commonly from what I gather, so was wine and we trace a lot of pur progress back to there. There are people who make bad choices and misuse things everywhere, it's not the States job to get in the way of natural selection. Let these people roll in the gutter, who cares. Focus on the good people, not trying to have another unsuccessful prohibition.
>>28592311
oh sorry didnt know you were a scientist.
or are you talking out of your ass?
i'd really like some proof towards this thx.
>>28592337
neither is consuming drugs.
OP, what happens when you cant support your habit? what happens to the people you may or may not physically and verbally abuse while on drugs? how does making some faggot low life rich and fucking up the housing market not produce victims?
>>28592330
I guess, i mean you have to be weird to think drug use benefits society. Or suicide. I mean, there are certain circumstances where they might be but generally they're really bad stuff.
>>28592337
ok but you have to stop sucking dicks then because that's not victimless either, it'll break your mother's heart
>>28591277
So can I just walk into a kindergarten and shoot a gun in the air yelling YEEHAW as long as it doesn't hit anyone?
>>28591277
I won't argue against it because I agree with it. Drug laws have never stopped people from being shithead junkies and they never will. What we call crimes should fall under the different forms of physical and sexual assault, and the different forms of theft, everything else is just an excuse for the government to profit from locking you up.
>>28592421
Well, can you name a stimulant that has a longer duration then meth? Furthermore if you dose like 10-20mg you won't go craving and tweaking, you'll just be straight focused.
There's a reason the military uses it since ww 2.
>>28592311
Methelphenidate is much more common. Probably even standard amphetamines. You can take combinations to reduce harmful effects on the brain. I really doubt many scientists are smoking freebase meth and if they are it's very stupid and short sighted. It's the strongest but also the worst for you. I think if your dose is low it can be ok, if they are doing it very moderately that's ok. Stims are very common in that community.
>>28592413
how is it natural selection when someone dies because they aren't educated on a substance manufactured by someone? society created it. society deals with it.
its called being responsible.
>>28592413
Okay, most heavy drugs. A heroine addict starts to be dangerous when his addiction gets too strong.
The drugs that don't definitely destroy personality are okay. Like nicotine (if it wasn't for the cancerous smoke), coffeine, theine, weed and alcohol (in reasonable amounts)
>>28592497
you miss the point. if you provide some solid claims to what you say id be more inclined to believe you instead of just saying "lol army uses meth i saw it on discovery chanelle"
>>28592186
You've never had to experience a European healthcare system, have you?
>>28592206
Nice anecdotal evidence you got there familia. Most alcoholics are shitheads too but somehow society doesn't crumble just because you can buy a lethal dose of alcohol at the corner store for fairly cheap.
>>28592284
Explain how film, television, video games, comic books, or 4chan is beneficial to society if that's the defining trait that shoukd determine something's legality
>>28592296
Seriously? Why do I have to forgo my biweekly breakfast burrito on the way to work beacuse some fatasses can't control themselves?
>>28592591
> Explain how film, television, video games, comic books, or 4chan is beneficial to society if that's the defining trait that shoukd determine something's legality
Are you really asking how art and entertainment is beneficial to society? Having bored masses is a recipe for disaster. Come on man, fucking think. Put like, the tiniest effort before you spew out nonsense.
> Seriously? Why do I have to forgo my biweekly breakfast burrito on the way to work beacuse some fatasses can't control themselves?
Because the overall benefit to society outweighs any negatives
>>28592591
I'm pretty healthy, yeah. The longest time I spent in hospital was when I got circumcised
>>28592524
You can use opiates in moderation you know. I've smoked heroin and taken pain pills with friends before and never formed an addiction
>>28592473
No you autistic fuck, because you're
>damaging property that doesn't belong to you
>damaging the ears of small children and the teacher
>firing a projectile into the air that will eventually come down and possibly injure or kill somebody
>>28592728
I know. I have my experience with various stuff too, and no addiction except for tobacco.
Still, I understand why shit is illegal.
>>28592767
its only illegal because lou reed made everyone mad
>>28592671
Art and entertainment are forms of escapism that break up the monotony of life and are now sold as commodities by corporations to the general public who consumes them anywhere from once or twice a week to every waking moment of the day. What differentiates it from recreational drug use?
>>28591277
Does victimless mean no victim exists or none has been identified, or just that you are in denial that there was a victim?
>>28592818
>No victim exists or none has been identified
Explain why there should be a difference in the eyes of the law
>>28592552
I'm sorry I'm on my phone right now and can't find these sources right now. If this thread stays alive until tomorrow I'm gonna hook you up.
Therefore just what I remember, the neurotoxicity of meth comes mainly from overdosing. If you have almost pure meth you can be focused for several hours with as less as 2-3mg (not 10-20mg like I stated before, just checked again, but of course it really depends on the purity). If you keep strictly to these minimal doses and stick to a healthy lifestyle meth will do no major harm to your system.
>>28592521
No one educated me, we a have Google now. How is that not natural selection. There's a point where someone is too far gone after heavy drug use/assimilation into degenerate culture. If you want to crusade for them go ahead, go volunteer and spend time at homeless shelters (pro tip watch your wallet). I'm totally disillusioned with the idea. It seems like some warm fuzzies but not logic. I don't feel any responsibility for someone else's self chosen ignorance or personal lack of self responsibility. Aw, you had four kids but you choose to do drugs and they got taken away to have terrible lives filled with suffering, poor you.
>>28592224
All of the above
orgasmial
>>28592767
But do you think that you and I deserve to go to prison because we had the audacity to alter our minds with something other than alcohol?
>>28592591
Meth changes your brain a lot more. It's more expensive, more habit forming and more likely to land you in the wrong crowd. It's not unusual for people to become gang affiliated through their habits. Heavy meth users are soulless, incapable of empathy, unable to enjoy normal things, have chronic insomnia and weight gain, find it hard to learn and remember and this is all due to strong neurotoxicity to dopamine in the brain
As someone mentioned here small doses not so much but people who smoke it to get euphoria or "high" certainly. Alcohol just isn't as bad health wise and life impact wise but I agree some drinkers are shit heads.
>>28592845
Because you libtards get your jollies off of playing the loopholes.
Examparoonie: You and your kind drive vehicles without the legal emissions equipment, spewing toxic components into the air. You pass thousands, maybe millions of people, some of whom develop lung disease years later. The law obviously cannot trace who drove the particular vehicles that caused the disease in each victim.
At the time of the violation, no victim could be identified and you would consider it a victimless crime.
>>28592330
Like maybe being able to get to your job and actually produce something a member of society needs (including yourself)?
>>28593005
Did it ever occur to you that some of that is a direct result of the drug being illegal? Maybe if tax payer money was diverted from enforcing drug prohibition to mental health programs geared towards helping addicts of all kinds then the culture surrounding meth might not be inherently criminal like it is now.
>>28592859
>no one educated me
you got no right to argue about what is deemed logical with logic like that moron.
and no im not biting with your strawman. the discussion is about your poor use of the term 'natural selection' and what it really is. at no point in time does your lack of empathy towards a human in an unfavourable even life threatening situation, deem the outcome of that situation natural selection.
stop regurgitating /pol/ tier trash.
>>28593045
Nice strawman fag. I never once said that emission standards are inherently oppressive, it's not my air to pollute so I'm effectively destroying somebody else's property by polluting the air. What property or person am I physically altering by taking Oxycotin recreationally within the confines of my house, assuming I'm not stealing to support an addiction and adhere to strict dosing procedure that reduces the risk of overdose to nothing?
>>28593235
well assuming you arent stealing to support your addiction and you are adhering to strict dosing procedure, lets also say maybe you become angry and unreasonable because of it which in-turn leads to someone getting hurt.
so, that, i guess.
>>28593310
in addition to possibly one day not having access to oxycotin and doing something stupid because you want it.
>>28593235
So at least two people have been involved in this crime of yours. First is obviously you for disregarding the proper administration of the drug, and secondly the person who illegally provided you with the drug. You and the drug company were the victim of their crime. (Although you obviously don't have enough sense to realize that if you are denying yourself proper medical attention for your affliction).
You might not have much pity on the pharma company, but actions like yours make it harder for everyone else to legitimately get the drugs.
Secondly, you compromise your ability to do things like drive, or work while the drug is active in your system. Driving obviously endangers others, and although you might say you stay at home minding your own business, I doubt if you work from home, contributing to unemployment and financial drain on the rest of society. Then there is the cost of scraping you up off the floor when you find out that you really did get addicted
>>28593310
Kek, that's not how opiates work but why should that even be reason enough to ban something? There's plenty of people who get drunk and do dumb shit, but they're usually charged with the crimes they committed while intoxicated, not with being drunk or possessing alcohol. Same goes with people that use every day objects, like hammers or kitchen knives to assault people, should they be charged with possessing a hammer or should the law recognize that there's perfectly innocuous reasons, no matter how few they may seem to some, to own a hammer and charge people on a case to case basis (maybe even with a separate, more severe charge like assault with a deadly weapon) or just criminalize the use of hammers altogether and only allow licensed individuals acquire hammers and make a concentrated effort using taxpayer money to arrest and prosecute blacksmiths who make their own to sell to people who can't afford hanmer licenses or just want a hammer for fun.
>>28591277
>le victimless crime maymay
Everything you do directly or indirectly affects those around you, you retard. You don't get to tear down society because you're such a weak-willed cuck you can't get by without smoking weed.
>>28592931
No. But still, I can understand why someone thinks so, and can understand why it is.
>>28593235
Just one more jonesfag thinks he's above getting hooked.
>>28593522
that may not be how opiates work but thats how you will work when you become a habitual user and cant use.
sorry.
>>28592728
That's anecdotal evidence. A quick Google search tells me that 28,000 people die from drug overdose each year.
>>28592405
People don't overdose because of drug impurity, they overdose because the drug is harmful to their body. Over 50% of people that OD were taking prescription opiates.
>>28593453
>First is obviously you for disregarding the proper administration of the drug
As defined by who? Do you think that people should only be able to use products as they're sold? So that you shouldn't be allowed to use a kitchen knife to cut open a letter if there was a law that said kitchen knives were to only be used for kitchen duties and required you used an alternative method of letter opening under penalty of the law.
>and secondly the person who illegally provided you with the drug
You're fundamentally misunderstanding my argument. I DO NOT think that it should be illegal, so I don't believe that the person selling me drugs should be categorized as a criminal, and they would no longer be one if recreational opiate usage was legal. Of course, there would probably no longer be a market for small time drug dealers like him if they weren't so difficult to get legally.
>You and the drug company were the victim of their crime
Even if I agreed with you, why should the victim of a "crime" be prosecuted the same as the perpetrator?
>actions like yours make it harder for everyone else to legitimately get the drugs
So make the drugs easier to get? You're almost making my points for me senpai, America's drug policies are fucked.
>>28593769
Hey faggot, I'm not the other guy, but I can tell you right now that there are other victims besides the person using the drugs.
On average, a hospital visit by someone that ODs costs $30,000. That's nearly 1.4 billion taken from taxpayers pockets, just so these fucking degenerates can go overdose again and again. Fucking leeches.
>>28592814
Drug use has much more potential for harm. Plus art and entertainment are powerful tools of propaganda for the powers that be
>>28593625
>>28593581
Of course nobody's above getting addicted to opiates, I'm just trying to say that treating people like criminals isn't the solution and that there are plenty of people who aren't addicts (ie. people legitimately in pain and occasional recreational users) who would benefit from the decriminalization of the drugs.
>>28593708
Your point being? Perhaps these people overdosed on the Acetaminophen (Tylenol) that opiate and opioid painkillers are often cut with, but even if they weren't I fail to see how the people who legitimately died because of the varying degrees of purity of product they were receiving wouldn't stand to benefit from safer drugs.
Do you honestly think that alcoholics or underage kids would be better off drinking moonshine than store bought booze? Assuming that preventing them from drinking all together was an impossibility (it is) of course.
>>28593769
holy shit...wow just wow.
remind me never to try and have an intellectual conversation on drugs.
>>28593906
they treated like criminals because it's illegal. it's illegal for all the reasons previously stated and then some.
let me ask you, are you high right now or just actively being an ignoramus
>>28593906
What? The point is that it isn't the fucking purity of the drug that's killing people, it's the fucking drug itself. If the legal, factory manufactured variants of the drug are killing more people than the illegal version, then where the fuck does purity come into play?
>>28593849
Do you know the causes behind all those overdoses? Maybe they received heroin that was more pure than what they were used to because there was no regulatory board monitoring the quality of the product, maybe they overdosed on the acetaminophen contained within the pill because no purer alternative existed, maybe they're suicidal and don't have the support network that those addicted to legal vices like shitty food, alcohol, and wallowing in self pity do.
Not denying that there's genuine degenerates that'd OD no matter what, just that nobody is really benefiting from them doing it illegally, least of all society.
>>28593930
Nice rebuttal
>>28594028
Because he stated that his uncited source claimed that 50% of those people died from prescription drugs, which leaves 50% of people who could've stood to benefit from a purer product. I was also pointing out that perhaps the study which he was mentioning doesn't differentiate from liver failure induced from the acetaminophen contained within the pill and legitimate overdoses on the drug they were intending on consuming.
>>28594041
No one would benefit from them ODing illegaly either. That's the point. Obviously it doesn't stop everyone, otherwise we wouldn't be having this conversation, but the law is meant to act as a deterrent.
The question is whether or not it's an effective deterrent. We can't really know that unless we legalized it an analyzed the data, but that could have a horrific outcome.
>>28594134
Both sides of that 50% are dead. Neither are benefiting from a purer drug. They're fucking dead either way.
>>28594041
>As defined by who?
the company chemists who make them
>Do you think that people should only be able to use products as they're sold? So that you shouldn't be allowed to use a kitchen knife to cut open a letter
No
> if there was a law that said kitchen knives were to only be used for kitchen duties and required you used an alternative method of letter opening under penalty of the law.
we have letter openers for opening letters and kitchen knives for kitchen things, wouldn't bother me.
>why should the victim of a "crime" be prosecuted the same as the perpetrator?
they aren't. you're fundamentally missing the point.
>So make the drugs easier to get? You're almost making my points for me senpai
easier to get or easier to get caught. i don't care either way. also, you're fundamentally missing the point again, but i guess it makes sense to you.
>implying you're high
>>28594378
/thread
just give it up anon. its sunday, his high. he literally has nothing to lose XD
>>28594041
>because there was no regulatory board monitoring the quality of the product
But whoa there. Pharma and the FDA are a regulatory board monitoring the quality of legal drugs and deem them to be safe AS LONG AS USED PER INSTUCTIONS. And here we are saying we don't need to follow the instructions.
Victimless crimes have victims. It's just the shortsightedness of the person committing them thinks they are victimless.
People say taking drugs is victimless but that is not the truth.
>Costs Taxpayer money to treat addicts/OD's
>Funds slavery and terrorism
>Funds street gangs/ violent crime
>Can ruin family dynamic
Not to mention that victimless crimes are also put in place to ensure the function of society on levels other than a criminal one.
>>28594041
>Do you know the causes behind all those overdoses?
Yes--stupidity
>>28594221
>Anon druginski is used to getting a drug that would require him to take N amount to die, but only 1/2 N amount to get high
>one day his dealer gets a new supply from Columbia but doesn't know that it's twice as strong as the shit that he's used to getting, so he sells it as normal
>multiple clients dead because black markets attract retards
Not saying that they'd benefit from a more pure drug, just a drug of more uniform purity, so that those who try to not OD have a legitimate means to do so. Not sure what's so difficult to understand about that.
>>28594189
Why shouldn't the negative side effects of the drug be deterrent enough to those that don't want to partake? Why should society be obligated to provide additional deterrents and fund increasingly more expensive police forces to ensure these deterrents aren't ignored?
>>28594461
>reading comprehension
I'm talking about heroin, but even if I was talking about pharmaceutical medicine, surely you recognize that the dosages for pain relief and the doses for recreational use, even for a beginner opiate user, would be different.
After all, ethanol (what gets you drunk) has different levels of purity when used in different applications. You wouldn't use a bottle of Jameson as an antiseptic, a cough medicine, and a recreational beverage, but all those things contain varying levels of ethanol in them.
>>28594518
>Costs Taxpayer money to treat addicts/OD's
Then pass a law stating that hospitals don't have to treat overdoses in people that receive government subsidized healthcare.
>Funds slavery and terrorism
>Funds street gangs/ violent crime
This is literally entirely due to it's legal status. Would you say that alcohol does the same thing despite the fact that hasn't been true since, I don't know, it stopped being illegal.
>Can ruin family dynamic
Entirely subjective. Many people would say the same thing about being adultery, alcoholism, deploying fathers and mothers overseas to kill people, and divorce.
>>28594639
>Why shouldn't the negative side effects of the drug be deterrent enough to those that don't want to partake? Why should society be obligated to provide additional deterrents and fund increasingly more expensive police forces to ensure these deterrents aren't ignored?
...Because it costs massive amounts of money to save these jackasses' lives. We've already been over this.
>>28594639
>>Costs Taxpayer money to treat addicts/OD's
>Then pass a law stating that hospitals don't have to treat overdoses in people that receive government subsidized healthcare.
No can do, hospitals have to treat everyone regardless.
>>28594639
Alcohol is damaging in other ways, and I think it should also be illegal...so should smoking.
It still costs tax payer money when the Police need to deal with people who resort to crime to feed a habit or deal with people under the influence.
It's hardly subjective. A child being addicted to heroin is devastating for any family, unless that family is some kind of heroin addict family...which is just bizarre. It would also raise unemployment and lower productivity since more people would be addicted to substances or suffering the consequences.
>>28594639
Thinking anon has burnt out a few braincells and can't even follow his own argument.
>>28594041
suggests a regulatory board for heroin/street drugs
>>28594461
response is that he is not adhering to the knowledge set forth by regulatory boards already in practice
>>28594639
posits that things would be different if it were heroine
Probably gives himself mouthwash enemas
>>28594695
But employing, deploying, and paying hundreds of thousands of police officers, federal agents, prosecutors, and public defenders whose job is either solely or largely to arrest, prosecute or in the case of public defenders, defend people who sell or use drugs is free? What about after they're prosecuted and spend 3 years in prison living in housing funded by the taxpayer, eating food paid for by the taxpayer while wearing clothing paid for by the taxpayer all while being babysitted by people who are paid, clothed, and armed by the taxpayer?
>>28594852
Holy shit you guys are morons.
I'm saying that people who died as a result of receiving a product that was of a different purity than what they were used to would've stood to benefit from a regulatory board whose sole purpose was to ensure that the products that were being sold for recreational use were what they were advertised, which would be a separate regulatory board than the one which is responsible for ensuring the safety and purity of drugs intended for medicinal use.
Think something like the ATF rather than something like the FDA.
>>28594994
Lets c
In your world, regulatory authority only monitors purity. There is no determination of safe and effective dose. Then magically everyone will be fine doing whatever they want.
(regardless that what they want might be a result of damage due to drug use)
And I'm the moron?
>>28595111
It works for alcohol senpai.
>>28595133
But everyone is not fine with determining their own alcohol consumption. Furthermore, there are laws and warnings about its use that are ignored by those who choose to.
Ever heard of Fetal Alcohol Syndrome? Affects more kids than Zika
