Who /leftist but anti-SJW but still will never vote for Trump/ here?
Embrace the Trump, it's your only hope
>>27631364
>I'm a millennial who doesn't know shit about politics, economics and historyI find Trump supporters equally stupid, so don't even start calling me one
>>27631364
Economically I lean far left however socially I lean right
So pretty much /pol/tards dont like me and libtards don't like me
My grandfather was actually from the USSR and he said that it wasn't the greatest however it could've been a great place if it wasn't for the shit flinging contest with the West
I am a socialist and i support trump.
Trump empowers the working man, while rejecting leftist degeneracy.
Describes me perfectly, Bernie's not perfect by any means but he's the best we have, even if SJW and BLM retards support him. I would vote for Trump, but i don't support hardly any of his policies
>>27631461
To be honest i dont really believe he gives a shit about SJW shit. Im sure he backs what he claims to support, but i thinks its pretty clear his focus isnt social issues and he only has to because he wants liberal and minority votes. I think this is whu hillary is doing better, most people dont care about banks and whatever but everyone has an opinion on how hard a police officer pushed a black girl at a pool party
>>27631446
So you're a Rato Supporter?
Just as bad
>>27631455
Trump has no socialist policies. He supports big corporations.
Also you can't claim to be socialist if you don't support freedom.
Kill yourself immediately
me
socially conservative but I support Bernie Sanders anyway because he has the best practical policy
>>27631771
>socialism
>freedom
Nice meme. Fuck off to North Korea.
>>27631784
>practical
>"muh free shit"
Yeah, makes sense. Millennials love cheap promises.
kill yourself my man
orginiale
Purple master race!
Also, Liberal Democrat domination when?
>>27631810
Nobody thinks it's "free shit" except dumb fuck /pol/faggot idiots like you.
>>27631810
It's almost like everybody who talks about socialism doesn't actually know what it means!
You don't like having:
>fire dept
>police
>healthcare
>education
>water board
etc
>>27631897
Oh dear, here we go, "muh roads" "argument".
>think I don't know what socialism means
>thinks having a fire dept is socialism
This can't get even more ironic, right?
>tfw old-fashioned classical liberal republican
Why does it feel so alienating to stand staunchly by the values this country was founded on?
>>27631869
>fascist incompatible with left
That's all libtards and progressivists are, come on
I'm definitely to the left, and anti-racist, but there are some mainstream liberal opinions I disagree with.
I'm not anti-gun or anti-tobacco, for instance.
>>27631996
That means you support murder
>>27631922
that is socialism, you fucking idiot
Any service paid for by tax money is socialism in practice. Socialism has nothing to do with gulags and soup lines.
>>27631971
Not really, they are the worst evil of all. They give you all the freedom, yet not too much to dissolve in anarchist bullshit (or just the other bs that the other sections of the compass gives a person)
>>27632014
>if you don't want to ban cars you support car crashes
>if you don't want to ban knives you support serial murders
Oh yes, leftist logic at its finest.
>>27632029
Socialism is about ownership of means of production, you dumb shit. Unlike you I actually live in post-socialist country, so I know a thing or two about socialism.
>>27631971
>fascist
>Not authoritarian at all
Do you even read, faggot.
>>27632077
Most socialist countries in the world, especially North Korea are actually far right fascist countries under the label of socialism.
>>27631364
If you're voting for anyone besides Trump or Sanders you're a corporatist cuck
>>27632206
>literally everything is owned by the state
>s-so what, I don't like them, let me label them as "fascist" instead
Every damn time. There's NO example of democratic socialism (that lasted at least 5 years, let alone decades) because socialism and democracy are incompatible with each other.
But hey, let me guess, you consider Scandinavia a socialist paradise (because life quality is high enogh, therefore it's qualified to be "socialist").
>>27631364
Trotskyist, reporting in
>>27632296
>this mad NatSoc trying to defend his reactionism
You guys are so helbent on preventing communism is ridiculous
>>27632353
JOE MCCARTHY DINDU NUFFIN
I don't even know what I am anymore. I just don't care.
I know that makes me the worst kind of citizen, but fuck it.
>>27632353
I never said I'm NatSoc you autist. I'm a classical liberal.
>>27631364
social democrat reporting
heavily anti-sjw but i try my damnedest to be progressive
So how many of you remember that episode?
>>27632706
And how does your classical liberalism explain that in today's language, there is no distinction between private property and personal property?
Hint: If you work alone in a factory, that is not the same like when you pay other people to work in your privately owned factory.
Private property is not the same as personal property, learn the difference.
I'm a pretty big lefty but I think SJWs derail a lot of legitimate discussion. Maybe if liberal Americans quit circlejerking to identity politics and focused more on class issues workers wouldn't get treated like absolute ass in the US.
>>27631364
Who /Maoist Third Worldist but still a useless shitstain who is just biding his time on earth for the most part/ here?
>>27633127
I'm pretty well versed in socialist theories, but what the fuck is third worldism? I can never get a direct answer.
Who /national bolshevist/ here?
>>27631446
Academic economics is 100% mythology, but since it wraps itself in mathematical notation and jerks off libertarianism it simply must be correct.
>>27633153
Basically, if we were to magically equalize everyone on earth right now, you and I would suffer a decreased living standard, whereas the poor mine worker in Kongo would experience a far greater living standard. As "workers" in the first world, we may be technically exploited, but we are also net-exploiters.
If socialism is to be a global movement, then first world socialists must also be ready to make great sacrifices. I do not believe that it is possible to convince the entire first world to act against it's own interest in such a manner however, thus first world socialism is either accepts that it still requires exploitation of the third world or is just total bullshit. The solution must therefore also not come from us but from the third world itself.
Who else agrees with this?
>>27633294
Whoops forgot to post the picture.
>>27631364
who else /3rd generation zoroastrian but 1st world moral relativity spectrum corporate endorser marxist revolutionary/ here?
>>27633278
So basically first worlders couldn't have McMansions and giant gas guzzling SUVs, or does it go further than that?
>>27631364
I'm kinda a mix of Libertarian and Socialist. But in my utopian society it wouldn't be that.
>>27633417
My utopian society would be like the galactic empire but only whites and some chinks.
I'm a liberal (around (-4,-0) on the political compass), and I fucking can't stand libtards. I'm probably voting for Bernie because Cruz is a goblin cuck, and Hillary is an uptight liar bitch, but I think Trump is okay.
The only issues I actually care about are accessible health care, accessible abortions, and refusal to involve our country in foreign affairs. Even though I like Sanders' policies more than Trumps, I don't like his $15 an hour idea, and my desire to see SJWs and racecucks lose their shit over Trump winning the election would be the next best thing to Bernie winning.
Trump hasn't said anything BAD, other than that he's pro-life. I hate how everything bad said about him is just Tumblrites complaining about how politically incorrect he is. Who cares? It's not his admittedly offensive viewpoints could possible translate to actual policies, except for the abortion thing.
>>27633278
isn't this what is basically happening?
>>27633457
Ken-Sama
>>27633516
Nobody who's actually a liberal would support Trump. Basically, you sound like
>I only care about myself
>>27633516
Are you me
Besides your issues of interest and slightly less appraisal for trump this is meeeee desu
>>27633516
His main platform is build wall...
>>27633707
how ignorant of you. you should be ashamed to be so stupid desu.
>>27633624
I'm pretty politically unaware. I don't like to identify as a liberal, but that's what the political compass places me. I guess I'd call myself an independent like my dad. I just don't feel very strongly about very many things at all (except the ones that directly apply to me, so maybe you're right in that regard).
As for the economy, I'm pretty economically retarded. I know $15/hr is overkill, but I'm okay with increased distribution of wealth among the rich. I don't know anything about the Sanders or Trump platforms other than that.
>>27631364
Not leftist, but anti SJW, fucking repulsed by them.
>>27633816
I'm a liberal and I dislike actual SJWs, not what /pol/ considers SJWs
>>27631971
Fascism is literally a far-right authoritarian ideology. It isn't the same as authoritarianism.
>>27633516
You like the idea of free (insert beneficial expensive product here)? You do realize what that will do to the economy, yes?
>tfw moderate lefty and get called an Uncle Tom
>tfw some nigs from my class tried to jump me for saying BLM are charlatans
>used to be a right winger /pol/tard
>am now a moderate
>see that both the left and right are full of morons and extremist
>know full well that Trump is just a plant and/or a good shabbos goy
>dont even have a side to pick anymore
>am completely alone
>get called a "fence sitter" by simple minded turnip folk that think if you don't pick a side you're a coward
>tfw you know both sides are objectively shit
>who ever wins, you lose
>>27633985
You wouldn't lose with Bernie, friend.
>>27633923
free =/= accessible
I think Planned Parenthood is perfectly fine and that they should stop getting shut down, and I think health care should be cheaper for people with less income or something. Not free obviously, but not putting people in debt either. It'd be nice to find a middle ground between free and absurdly expensive.
I don't even know anymore where to stand. I try to find the ideology that will allow the most personal freedom, but I don't know what it is. Everyone says, "anon ur a libertarian!!!!" but I'm not. I don't think unrestrained capitalism is freedom, because eventually, all the power consolidates until we have an oligarchy (we basically already do).
I don't know anymore. I'm against SJWism, I'm against fascism, I'm overall just against authoritarianism, whether it's by the state or whether it's privatized.
Someone help me out here.
>>27634085
Bernie does seem like a natural choice for me. I still don't know. Like George said, "I have no stake in this game anymore".
Who /anarcho-nationalist/ here? Original comment
>>27634165
Bernie has some SJW views but it's not Anita Sarkheisan shit. He wants to give it to corporations and he's against offshore relocating of them. He will truly make America great again
>>27634214
*tips fedora*
Me gentlesir.
>>27631364
who /feelthejohnson/ here?
>>27634220
He's better than all the other candidates, I'll give him that.
>>27634138
leftist libertarian republic. The government provides things that capitalist society won't, but is needed for freedom, like healthcare and education and infrastructure. The government does not push morality though. It does not ban things unless they are explicitly violent and/or take away others rights.
Keeps the markets in check. Keeps the majority in check. Provides opportunity and liberty. Want to be poor and have free time? You can. Want to work for money endlessly? Sure. You know you'll be able to fall back on something if your health fails. If you go into the wrong line of work, that's ok. You can be retrained.
You can be comfortable being poor. That's the thing. Less comfortable as the rich, but you aren't enslaved by income. Because fiat currency is a made up scam and shouldn't control your life
>>27634220
>White people don't know poverty... We have to do something for women & minorities.
There are literally more poor white people than there are minorities. Bernie displays the same uninformed pro-nonwhite bias that SJWs do.
>>27634315
We already have that. I grew up on welfare and it was okay. I never went hungry or anything.
>>27633197
behavioural economics is revolutionizing the micro study in a meaningful way
>>27633377
Different anon here, but a little more than that. Instant access to luxury items for super cheap would end.
>>27633923
I like the idea of paying for medical care with taxes, rather than having a middle man(insurance) inflate the price thus excluding a majority of our country from decent healthcare. We would spend less on healthcare if we crowdfunded it with our taxes. Insurance for healthcare does nothing for society you retard
>>27634315
this is me
>>27634138
The real problem is that you can't actually be "just against authoritarianism," because there will always be an authority. As you've already noted, a weak government will just leave room for private authority to take over. So the political compass should really label the y-axis "private oppression" to "public oppression," but they're too up their own asses to realize that, and for your part you need to pick your poison.
I'm leftist just because in europe right wing is completely fucking retarded and wants to enforce their worldviews on everyone 24/7.
>>27631364
When will people realize that you can't stump the Trump?
>>27634460
Your wrong on the first point, minorities, at least black, Hispanic, Native American, and certain Asians, are poorer on average than white people.
>>27634529
Yeah the rightwing... those bastards keep arresting people for 'threatening' tweets.
I fluctuate between National Bolshevism and National Syndicalism daily. Bernie sucks, so does Hilary, I like Trump's nationalism though even if he doesn't really mean it.
>>27634461
>behavioural economics
Sort of. At its best, behavioral economics is behavioral psychology but with more rigid paradigms and more intellectual baggage (and behavioral psychology is still a pretty dodgy field). At its worst, behavioral economics is a retread of the mistakes of game theory. And regardless of those considerations, none of it is generalizable to the macro scale (at least not without committing the fallacy of composition to ludicrous extremes), which just doubles down on it as shitty behavioral psychology.
>>27634555
Sure they maybe poorer on average but in raw numbers poor whites outnumber all minorities. The white average gets dragged up by rich people (often jews who don't get separated from whites in statistics).
You are wrong about asians. In aggregate they are better off than white people.
>>27634620
With macro you have to play with rational actors because humans are rational in aggregate, but on a micro level we learn how to manipulate incentives and drive choices much better now that we've used behavioural economics
>>27634653
That's why I said CERTAIN Asians
>>27634601
>I fluctuate between National Bolshevism and National Syndicalism daily
Who /leftypol/ here?
I usually don't browse /r9k/ as I'm not an autistic piece of shit, but just wondering if there are some comrades on this board
>>27634660
That's a circular argument. You want people to be rational, because then you can apply formal methodology, so you find ways to call whatever happens rational in aggregate. All that does in practice is make the Queen ask why nobody saw it coming.
>>27631364
Fuck off Ameriburger.
Your country is an irrelevant joke.
>>27634695
hello comrad
>>27634575
Well I was mostly talking about the guys who shank people in dark corners at night and then go on to claim that they are "patriots" and shit, when in reality they are normal chavs.
Even worse when the government and political parties endorse such behaviour.
memes are fun, but I'm very left wing with some sprinkles of anti degeneracy anti nigger right wing stuff here and there
>>27634840
>Even worse when the government and political parties endorse such behaviour.
What government does that?
>2016
>Still being authoritarian left or right
Progressive is were it is at.
>libcuck but not SJW
who do these people even vote for? The parties that floods their country with browns and feminism or the ones that aren't left wing?
>>27634899poolandand russia butthat's a completely different issuenice dubs btw
>>27634728
No it's not. Macro and micro look at two different things. They are hardly directly related. We can determine what the rational thing to do it without looking at the data first. Then we look at the data and see that in aggregate humans are pretty rational. We know that saving for retirement is rational and that most people do it. To what degree and how on an individual level doesn't often make sense though.
The question that ties micro and macro together is "how do a string of non-rational beings find the rational action in aggregate?", but your argument against my statements added in some secret connection and meaning between the two branches of economics that I neither explicitly stated or implied.
Humans are just good at guessing games. Good enough that we've survived. Economics answers "In what way are we good at that and why"
>>27634825
BUCKO
U
C
K
O
>>27634917
Everyone on the left has the exact same ideas about everything.
As usual the most vocal are completely in line with the feelings of the entire ideological side
>>27631454
>Economically I lean far left however socially I lean right
Is there a worst way of thinking than this?
>>27631364
>leftist but anti-SJW
>pic of Lenin
Lenin was a SJW.
He let out thousands of murderers and rapists out of the tsarist prisons because "dey din du nuffin, it was all because of da opressive regime".
It is why Russian culture of today is so heavily marked by prisoners language and customs.
The october revolution was a bunch of hipster kids opening the gates of evil thinking they are fashionable hating the "ebil guvrnment keepin us down", then getting consumed by their own creation like gullible idiots.
Along comes Stalin who removes the red ideologues and replaces the mess with Russian imperialism under the veil of socialism.
>>27634917
If Sanders is not nominated there is no one for real 'leftists' to vote for, because Hillary is even more of a corporate shill than Trump. Yet she will still raise taxes on everyone to pay for Jamal's benefits, except the rich will get out of it through tax evasion. She should be a lefty's worst nightmare.
>libcucks think they're seperate from sjws
>>27635124
>trying this hard
>calling anyone who's not a nazi an SJW
>>27634936
Is massive deforestation rational, is pollution rational, is involuntary unemployment rational? That last one is the most black-humorously circular of all, because the wage-and-money system is constructed in such a way as to actually require involuntary unemployment, but economists are so incapable of looking past their paradigms that they think it is in fact rational.
As far as saving for retirement, that's a fairly modern phenomenon (back in the stone ages of capitalism, there were things called pensions) that seems to largely be a product of stock brokers wanting to make those sweet fund-management fees. It's really more a case of "we've been convinced by stock brokers that this way of handling retirement is rational, and we've gotten the government on board (via tax law) and employers too (because matching contributions are cheaper than pensions), so that's the rational course of action," and lo and behold, you're right! Congratulations!
>>27635124
I've heard people imply on this board that anyone who isn't a massive pedophile is an SJW.
>>27635157
>involuntary unemployment
meme
I'm considering voting for Cruz. Sure he's a Christfag but at least he's not a blustering authoritarian like Trump, out of touch ideologue like Sanders or shill like Hilary.
>>27635155
>trying this hard
>calling anyone who isn't left wing a nazi
>>27635221
Bombing Syria until the sand glows seems absolutely like the most bat shit insane thing anyone has said this cycle.
>>27635157
You keep blurring the line between economics, both micro and macro. You don't understand rationality or what a rational being is. Deforestation and pollution are both micro issues where people let their nominative ideas get in the way of rationality. That's what behavioural economics examines you cuck.
You also blur the line between the financial sector and economics. There are economists employed by the financial sector, but they aren't representative of all economists. You seem like you have only scratched the surface in your research and understanding of these ideas.
>>27635337
It's the only thing right Cruz has ever said
>>27634239
Im more a McAfee man myself. Did you watch the libertarian debate friday? Johnson is low energy.
>>27635337
Really? Destroying the biggest threat to the West seems like a good idea to me. I'm more concerned about what happens afterwards. If we pull out there will be a power vacuum for extremists to exploit.
>>27634927
What the actual fuck is even going on in poland at the moment? I haven't been watching news for a good time now for the sake of me not throwing something at the screen because of the shit I read so seriously what is poland doing right now?
Can someone tell me what label I am politically? I thought I was a traditionalist Conservative/moderate alt-righter for ages, but now I don't know.
I believe in unrestricted freedom of speech and press. I believe in traditional values, such as the nuclear family unit, and a ban on polygamy and gay marriage.
However, I would allow gays to do what they want in private, so long as they do not corrupt children or people in public. I am all for the legalisation of marijuana and maybe LSD, but no hard drugs. I am very anti-immigration, and believe we should have a majority white and native European population.
I am a majority collectivist (about 70/30) ratio. I believe in individual rights, but I think society's rights and needs trump the individual's.
I believe those who don't contribute economically to the nation should be cut off from all income, unless they have a genuine medical or social reason for not doing so.
I want to stress that I am authoritarian, not totalitarian, which is why I said I would let gays do what they wish in private.
Well?
>>27631364
I'm a spart or an anarchists whatever you wanna call me. I just hate annoying people don't really give a shit what they believe as long as it's not harmful to me or society
Who /anarchosyndicalist/ here?
>tfw no gf
>tfw poorfag
>tfw tankies would gulag me for being a useless kissless virgin
>>27631364
I'll never not be a leftist, however stupid it might be. Industry feels entitled to the entire earth, and I just want to tell it to fuck off and leave me a decent fishing hole.
>>27637064
I'm an anarchist fren I understand your struggle with tankies but You just need to get yourself one of those QT3.14 Greek anarchist during their revolt.
>>27636928
National conservatism? You sound like Geert Wilders.
>>27637064
>tankies
wut?
>>27636928
>I believe in unrestricted freedom of speech and press.
>I am authoritarian
Pick one. You seem like a European liberal.
>>27637471
tankies are Stalinists and people who defend authoritarian shite holes even state capitalism at times.
>>27637245
>You just need to get yourself one of those QT3.14 Greek anarchist during their revolt.
Maybe. Some qt Kurdish anarchists at the moment too.
>>27637471
>wut?
Stalinists, Maoists, the odd North Korea fan.
>>27637471
You can be authoritarian in certain ways and still advocate freedom of speech. For example, a few of the things I just listed above are authoritarian by nature (banning polygamy and immigration from third world countries), but that doesn't stop you from being able to voice your opinion.
The nation-wide legalisation of gay marriage in the U.S. was authoritarian because it wasn't decided on a vote, but the U.S. still allows freedom of speech.
i protest capitalism by not working, am i doing good guys :)
>implying you can be leftist and anti-sjw
comrade pls
>>27631446
>I'm so smart you guys I hate both extremes haha betcha never thought to feign intellectualism by taking a passive middle ground stance like me
>>27637629
You can.
bbbbbbbblblblblbl
>>27637629
SJW
>regressive
>hate free speech and free expression
>Concerned only with identity politics
>Only leftist on matters of identity politics, Capitalist and fascist on everything else
>support big business because "muh women and trans ceos"
>hate atheism because it goes against peoples culture
Real Marxist
>Progressive
>Focuses mainly on taking down the bourgeois and collapsing the barriers between classes
>Actually hate all corporations and see them as the #1 problem ruining the world (which they are)
>View Identity politics as an act of distraction by the bourgeois
>Hate all religion including Islam because Islam is a fascist cult
>>27637678
>I assume that everyone who takes a middle ground stance on a certain issue always takes a middle ground stance on every issue because strawmen are easier to debate than actual people
wew lad. Besides they didn't even take a middle ground stance, their position could be further left or right than either mainstream "extreme".
>>27638118
>>support big business because "muh women and trans ceos"
kek that's true.
>>27637629
Authoritarian left wing, ever hear of it?
>>27633875
/pol/ considers anybody who even returned a hello to a nigger an SJW, but Tumblrites and flag burners they are in the right for hating
>>27638160
It is true.
Ask any SJW about money. They're all "WELL MONEY IS EVERYTHING BECAUSE IT CAN MAKE YOU HAPPY AND BUY CUTE CLOTHES THAT MAKE YOU FEEL PRETTY UWU"
>>27638207
There's nothing wrong with flag burning
>>27638219
I know. They're just as wrapped up in perpetuating capitalism as the rich. In fact many of them are quite wealthy but they look for ways to hide that, hence the rise of the the "privilege" cult.
>>27638598
Someone should make an info graph. Laurie Penny, Brianna Wu, Lena Dunham etc all have rich as fuck parents.
>>27633417
Universal Basic Income + Cut Most Programs is like that.
>>27631364
Leftist reporting in, still pissed at the deep fracture in the left which spawned SJW's and the regressive left. However I don't know how far left I am, i've been told I'm a social democrat and others have said I'm borderline bolshe. If anyone could help clear this up:
>believe in universal health care, standard of quality mediated by independent watchdog body
>nationalized transport, with standard of quality also mediated by independent body to ensure best quality transport
>wealth from minerals and oil deposited into a massive sovereign wealth fund which provides taxpayers with free university tuition/apprenticeship positions
>5 year, fixed term elections, bicameral parliament
>Pursuit of science/technology to ensure innovation at a global level as to keep up with the rest of the world
>Mandatory language, mathematical, science and humanity subject at high school along with preferred electives
>Maximum transparency in government, strict anti-corruption laws, corruption offences carry harsh penalties i.e 15 years in prison
>Government regulation in the areas of worker conditions and fair minimum wages, however does not bail out corporations that fail
>Immigration based on a points based system, the acceptance of asylum seekers with a legitimate claim
>Participation in global governance, i.e UN, WTO, ICC, IMF, to ensure global security and prosperity, and to integrate national position in the world
>Stir up economic growth by a slow return to manufacturing industry, trying to become less reliant on outsiders for consumer goods
>Emphasis on the community and home spirit, grandeur public parks/spaces/works, youth sports and intellectual programs, community works for the betterment of each other rather than selfish individualist policies that hardly benefit everyone
>Build up of the technological industries in order to compete with the rest of the world
What the fuck am I /r9k/?
AYYYYYYY Comrade
>>27639064
Architect of a failed state.
>>27639064
Looks like you're a social democrat.
>>27631364
I'm leftist and anti-sjw but tbqh if I was American I'd vote for Trump simply cause I think it'll be hysterical
>>27639156
I thought as much frankly
>>27639064
Hey, I'm the guy who asked /r9k/ what I was above too.
You sound centre-left to me.
>>27639173
I will never vote for Trump because i'm not ready to die in a nigger revolt yet.
Maybe someday but not this year
If he gets elected the mexicans and Blacks are going to uprise
>>27634085
except when he gives blacks even more privilege
>>27633343
muh "workers own means of production" won't work because they are retarded and spineless. There's a reason why they're the employee and not the employer.
This is fact
>>27639428
>Implying he ever would or even could do that
You conservafags and your le tinfoil conspiracy theories
>>27639463
epic, keep swallowing that black cock anon
>>27639463
>if you're white you don't know what it means to be poor
>muh black men in jail
>it's time we apologize for slavery
>wimpy faggot who lets BLM seize the mic
>p-please vote for me people of color
He's such a spineless grovelling cuck
Ironically black people aren't voting for him because of it
>>27633343
Marxism never works because it incentives lazyness. "To each according to his need and from each according to his capacity" sets up a system in which those who can produce beyond their needs and are forced by the state to surrender their excess production to those who produce less than they require. People see that they can live as well as anyone else by underperforming until the number of indolents becomes so great that society no longer meets its needs. The only palliative against this is forced labour aka slavery. The history of slavery makes it apparent that the cost of managing a slave based economy outstrips the benefit s by far.
I'm not familiar with the others but I'll say that free enterprise works the best if we look at history.
Why are neckbeards/outcasts always right wing?
>>27639704
Idk, I'm glad I'm a leftist that way I'm handsome and popular also my cock is huge
>>27638118
This is actually very insightful and summarizes my problem with SJWs.
Now, I could imagine gay/women/trans rights being advocated WITHIN the fold of marxism, i.e. equal rights and duties for all, no laws regulating sexuality or identity, etc. But that would, by necessity, all be secondary - what matters is collective control over the means of production, not your preferred pronouns; I'll gladly call you pandemixirzir or whatever if you fucking focus for five fucking minutes so we can get real shit done.
Voting anything but conservative is a vote for SJWs, feminism, and mass immigration
>>27639459
>Calling self, parents and friends (if any) retarded and spineless
Good boy. Have a pat on the head from your corporate overlords.
>>27639686
Actually, it's "from each according to their ability, to each according to their need". So first of all, one GIVES first and not as much as one wants of feels like, but as much as one is able to. Only then does one get, but not as much as one wants but as much as one NEEDS.
You are right in that this gets fucked up is a state tries to manage it. Hence Marx imagined a "free association of producers", i.e. collective owenership directly by the people.
>>27631364
Conservative gommies are best gommies.
Homosexuality, transgenderism, and 3rd wave feminism is all bourgeois propaganda, anyways.
t. natsoc
>>27639573
>if you're white you don't know what it means to be poor
He mispoke, that's all. He also was against the retarded reparations some people asked for slavery.
>>27638219
>>27638118
>>27639995
>mfw SJWs are actually pushing the corporatist globalist agenda
>mfw nationalist groups are our only allies in Marxism
>>27640162
Nationalism and communism aren't compatible.
We need a one world democratic socialist government.
>>27640213
So like star trek?
>>27634668
>hook line and sinker.
>>27640224
Kind of?
It'd cover the entire world, erase all states, provinces, and boundaries each country has and each member would be elected to government.
Also there'd be no executive branch. Just congress and the judicial branches.
>>27633985
I'm with you. It's an intriguing feel.
>>27640162
No, that's a kind of black and white thinking I can't get behind. SJWs annoy me, and I think they are misguided and that they haven't really thought about the issues that Marxism brings up (consumed as they are with identity politics). But they aren't the enemy. In a way they are right: there DOES exist oppression of certain groups and that IS something that needs to be dealt with. Their mistake is wanting to deal with it within the context of capitalism.
But nationalists are the anti-thesis of Marxists. Socialism is by necessity internationalist and looks not at race, gender or sexuality but unites everyone in the struggle against capitalism. This is why it isn't inherently against the core SJW idea either, once that idea is stripped of the ridiculous and allowed to mature. In the SJWs is still the seed of the revolutionary. They need only broaden their horizons, and consider the context in which they want change to occur. Difficult, but not impossible.
>>27631364
TFW you're liberal but fucking hate SJWs and the Black Lives Matter movement. I swear I am voting for Cruz this election , fuck every other liberal, Im actually ashamed of my own views cause of you fucks.
>>27634085
>paying $5000 more in taxes for stuff I already have
No thanks bernigger
>>27640331
>first world cunts immediately swarmed by africans and asians 10000x more than they already are
No thanks.
>>27640092
>>27640092
I can only see it working with a tiny group of people who need each other. Do you think it can work with a country-sized population?
>>27634917
You had your chance with Jim Webb
>>27631364
Right here OP
Hardcore liberals and fundamentalist conservatives are dipshits
>>27632029
no, that's called "government"
>>27640486
Doesn't need to. Small groups can form bigger ones through federalism and associations (anarchist theory talks about this), and small groups can also overlap (Otto Neurath spoke of 'overlapping authorities' in stead of a top-down government).
>>27640357
>Socialism is by necessity internationalist
You what? Capitalism is internationalist, trade doesn't care about borders or government control or the condition of the worker. Trade only expands to wherever there is money to be made.
Socialism only makes sense in a strongly nationalist country. A glance at what's happening in the Nordic Social Democracies tells you why.
>>27640331
That's the most miserable form of government I can even conceive of. Jesus fucking christ.
Honest question, if I don't know anything about politics, the economy, or the real world at all should I just not vote? I appreciate Democracy but I think I am too stupid to vote.
>>27640667
Please explain how?
>m-muh white pride
>>27640659
Nordic countries are hardly socialist though
Fuck
>>27640659
Ignore
>>27640738
I misread your post.
>>27640732
You're literally describing a nameless, faceless, unnacountable bureaucracy that nobody is allowed to leave.
Fuck you.
>>27640729
Yes. Undecided voters are the cancer killing America. People like Kim Kardashian should not be allowed to vote
>>27640738
They're social democracies which is capitalism with a lot of government control. In some of their own languages they call it socialist.
>>27640659
Yes, capitalism is internationalist and hence any true socialism must also be. Socialism is a break with capitalism, yes, but it's also a seed at the heart of capitalism that gets to grow - capitalism lays the foundation for socialism. The kind of internationalism where race, gender, etc. doesn't matter would NOT have been possible in a feudal society. Capitalism broke down those barriers and make socialism possible.
Read Marx. Really do. Even if you hate it and disagree you will have learned so much. There's a way of thinking there that is deep and nuanced and complex; one that will enrich the way you look at the world.
>>27640610
>anarchist theory talks about this
and the iron law of oligarchy refutes it
>>27640830
>no true socialism
fascist systems are effectively nationalist socialism, and before the war, they functioned better than any internationalist socialist system ever did
>>27640729
Read about policies that aren't just pop politics and think about how they effect you. If you are a worker then you ought to be especially concerned.
>>27639704
I'm a friendless leftist senpai
>>27640610
But that introduces redundant governance for each group in effect creating micronations (reminds me of pre-Weimar Germany) which is a bureaucratic hell. AFAIK large nation states simplified governance and increased peoples access to greater means of production (more lands, workers, consumers etc).
>>27639481
Why so gay, /pol/? Straight men don't picture that kind of shit in their heads.
>>27640838
>iron law of oligarchy
Oh really, the fascist believes that fascism is inevitable, really?
He raises some good point, to be honest, and it's for this exact reason that anarchists and other associational socialists focus so much on democratic theory - to AVOID stuff like that happening.
>>27640880
Depends on how you define socialism, I guess, and there's no universially agreed upon definition. Let me specify: I mean the Marxist tradition.
It also depends on how you define "functioning"; IMO if you have a fascist system you've already failed because oppression is a failure in and of itself. Doesn't matter how well the economy works or how the employment rate or education is; if people lack their basic freedoms then the system is missing the point. Again just IMO.
>>27640920
Yeah, there are those problems, and endless debates on how to prevent it. Look into anarchist theory, esp. associations and federations, if you're curious. Can't be arsed to repeat all the arguments here, and whatever I said wouldn't be representative of all socialist thought.
>>27640830
How can socialism be internationalist if it has no built-in means of expansion? Free enterprise naturally pursues trade and so sweeps over boarders transferring excess goods to wherever there is excess capital. It catalyses human greed into a relentless struggle to extract wealth. Socialism has no mechanism of catalysing production apart from the primitive need to subsist. Therefore it does not expand naturally but must be forced brutally by ideological interests into new territory. History says as much.
If you've read Marx you'll know that he took for granted a tide of wealth brought in by free enterprise to float his socialist utopia. On an international level it would be disastrous to build on a stagnant pool that can only ever shrink.
>voting for Bernie
https://i.4cdn.org/wsg/1459541544853.webm
>>27641231
>Oh really, the fascist believes that fascism is inevitable, really?
In your skimming, you missed the part where Robert Michels was at first an anarcho syndicalist, and became a fascist after formulating his theory.
Of course, Mussolini was also originally an internationalist socialist.
Seems like a pattern.
>>27641231
>if people lack their basic freedoms then the system is missing the point
all organizational, societal systems take away freedom for some benefit. which freedoms you consider fundamental is a matter of opinion.
>>27641243
Socialism doesn't have that drive; that's the accumulation drive and it is itself driven by the law of value which does not operate under socialism. What happens is, and I am of course simplifying greatly, is that capitalism through it's expansion creates a homogeneous world. Cultural barriers and national borders are broken down. Meanwhile, since capitalism concerns itself with abstract labour only, it reduces every person to nothing but a carrier for that abstract labour - i.e. capitalism doesn't care if you're black or white or male or female, as long as you create value.
All are equally exploited. So, in other words, capitalism both breaks down barriers to cooperation and gives people a common enemy to unite against (to whom we are all alike anyway). So we're not dealing with imperialistic expansion, but global cooperation. Utopian, perhaps, but that's the general idea.
And no, Marx did not rely on "wealth brought in by free enterprise to float his socialist utopia"; in fact he wrote next to nothing about the socialist utopia at all (a paragraph or two in the Critique of the Gotha Programme on what socialism IS NOT). He did rely on capitalism "developing the means of production", but that is another thing.
>>27641325
Actually, I'm aware since I didn't just skim the wiki: I'm a sociology PhD and a anarcho-syndicalist myself, so I've read his stuff. Like I said, an interesting challange and definitivley stuff that needs to be considered, but not insurmountable.
>>27641453
And here is the reason for political disagreement and different ideologies: it's ALL a matter of opinion. The whole goal, the very REASON to have a society at all, we don't even agree on that!
Who else here is against the death penalty for everything except pedophiles? Pedos are scum and need to be gassed
>>27641584
>but not insurmountable
So you say, but you have no evidence. Meanwhile, there's a record back to athens of failed democracy.
>it's ALL a matter of opinion
It actually isn't. A lot of it is a matter of efficacy. Whatever your opinion on fascism, nobody argues that it can't be implemented.
I don't really know what I am but I think that I am pretty firmly in the left, at least by Americans standards. I think that markets and private enterprise can do some good but that they should be compelled by the state to serve the interests of the population at large and that they should be taxed to the point that their profits are very thin. I also think that extreme campaign finance reform should be implemented and companies or individuals trying to influence the political sphere should be considered treasonous. I also strongly support basic income so that people don't have to slave away if they don't want to and companies need to sell themselves to you not the other way around. Finally I think there should be maximum incomes individuals can make such as your net worth would be capped at 2 million or so.
>>27641707
>no evidence.
Except there is. Problem is that a lot of those "failures" are basically everyone involved getting killed. Consider the Paris Commune or the anarchist experiments in Spain, or even Rojava right now. They all showed, and show in the latter case, signs of working just fine, but then again their ideology provokes others into wanting to kill them. So almost all examples are in war-time.
And this is just the historical stuff. Then you can get into behavioural models, and research on organisations and incentives, etc. etc. which tends to back that some kind of democratic organisation is possible IF set up right.
>>27641657
You miss my point. Deciding to prioritize efficacy is an opinion. Evaluating it based on efficacy is an opinion.
And that it can be implemented doesn't mean it should be. Example: I'm feeling a bit peckish right now, anon. I know for a fact that I can eat the stale bread I have left because I have done so before. But precisely for that reason I also know that it would suck. On the other hand, I'm not sure if I'll be able to successfully complete this new chili recepie I found. But then again, it looks delicious and I know enough about cooking in general that I feel confident in giving it the ol' college try. You feel me?
>>27631939
Classical liberals have a strong mistrust for democracy which is why only the rich were allowed to vote in the 19th century in Europe.
They basically think democracy is wrong because it lets poor people use the government to take from the rich. When you understand this, you can see why lower class people really don't like or trust classical liberals.
I consider myself socially and economically liberal but I can't stomach most non-traditional values. I believe that social constructs and norms are adaptations and that the traditional ones have largely served us well so there's no reason to throw them out when there hasn't been any radical change to the conditions of human life.
I want to kill all shitskins
What am I?
>>27641584
I still don't get it senpai. If Socialism is internationalist it should be able to break down barriers and self sustain. I don't see how that is possible if it doesn't develop its own means of production. It seems to me like something that must be imposed that eventually crumbles once the means of production that it was built on becomes obsolete.
>>27642074
Classical psycho.
>>27642074
Tryhardicus faggotica
>tfw socially right wing but extremely leftist when it comes to economics (but not a fascist)
>I think that Joseph Stalin was a good guy and Trotsky was full of shit
am I a Stalinist?
>>27642326
No you're a faggot.
Honestly you sound like Kim jong Un
liberalism is untenable, the false belief in the "free marketplace of ideas" will ALWAYS result in redfeminism because people are hardwired to believe women, and women are hardwired for greed.
liberalism can only work temporarily, its a band aid.
utilitarianism is what must evolve from liberalism lest we maintain an endless cycle of freedom and then tyranny due to the innate weakness of liberalism.
gril because you faggots need to learn
/pol/ reporting
Embrace Trump, op. Make America Great Again!
>>27631364
Bernie is a cuck, he'll take all your money and give it to blacks.
A vote for Trump is a vote for liberty
>>27643569
Liberalism is the true free market place of ideas meaning that it is free of distortions such as the institutional backing that feminism has. Real liberalism would only rely on empiricism and rationality not emotionally manipulative propaganda.
>>27643880
this is humanly impossible. people need the truth forced upon them, there is no other way.
there is nor right or wrong, only truth and lies.
>>27642074
My idol.
>>27631364
I like kasich desu
But it looks like Trump is the only non cuck with a chance so I guess I'll go for him
>>27634085
reddit wins if bernie wins
I never want reddit to win
>>27644001
>people need the truth forced upon them
That's how we got here you tard. Feminists infested academia and government and forced their truth was forced on society.
>leftists
Kek
>>27644366
>fascists
They should all be shot Katyn style.
I support capitalism, borders, legalization of recreational use for DUDE LMAO (Even though I personally don't do it), low to moderate taxes, right to bear arms, less nsa spying etc
But I don't support legit racism (Not whiny bitchy tumblr's idea of 'Racism' or 'Tyrone punches cop and cries when cop takes offense' racism') but I oppose legit autistic /pol/ fantasies. I'm not saying you have to let your wife get fucked in the ass or let a shit ton of illiterate violent muslims in urban slums but it should be illegal to harass legal citizens who speak english and pay taxes.
What am I?
>>27642074
Your shoes were most likely made from chinks
>>27644419
Name one successful society built on Marxist socialism. Oh wait.
>I give a pass to Strasserist socialism, tho
>>27644551
>You're not a far right nazi homicidal genocidal maniac
>THEN YOU'RE A FAR LEFT COMMUNIST MARXIST
Y'know, my grandfather may have been a big Reagan guy who hated progressives, but he would never have said anything positive of Facism.
If anything, facism is pretty fucking marxist if you honestly think about it. Facism is the idea that everybody with similar pigment to you is your "Brother" and how you should kiss their ass and harass others/
>>27644341
only idiots think that the means are more important tan the end. war is waged by the aggressors and the victims. they use indoctrination and it works against us, therefore we too must use indctrination. our only edge comes from reason, not appealingness,
lies will always be more powerful to the mind than truth because lies are necessarily built to be appealing, whereas the truth is necessarily not.
the only path to truth therefore, is to force it unto others violently. to force them to play by the rules of reason in order to survive.
because truth grants power over reality, and lies do not. war is the conduit of truth.
It's called National Socialism.
Subjugate the internationalist capitalist scum
Subjugate the internationalist leftist scum
=
Greatest, swiftest economic recovery in human history.
>>27644613
>crush unions
>ban striking
>make partnerships with big business
>receive materiel and finances from said international capitalists
The Nazis' 'anti-capitalist' bullshit was nothing but rhetoric to appeal to on-the-fence leftists.
>>27644597
And your grandfather was a liberal idiot.
>facism is pretty fucking marxist if you honestly think about it.
Do you mean by how we reject the argument that the individual is the most important element in society, like liberalism does. Marxism is the logical outgrowth of liberalism.
>>27644665
From your own "comrade".
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yt8YI7V4SaA
Real National Socialism isn't Hitlerism.
>>27644667
wew lad
Liberalism and Marxism are diametrically opposed.
>>27631364
GO BACK TO /POL/ !!! I JUST WANT TO TALK ABOUT BELLY GF !!!!!!!!
>>27644725
Which is what a Marxist would say. Marx built from Adam Smith and Smith built from similar Enlightenment thinkers and ideas.
Same reason why reading a book about fascism by a communist is kind of pointless.
>>27644607
>truth grants power over reality, and lies do not. war is the conduit of truth.
Wow. This is the most cringeworthy autistic thing ever posted on /r9k/.
Truth IS reality no force or power changes that. War is not about truth it is about might and cunning.
Also fuck your authoritarian bullshit. If you want a system that is guaranteed to spread lies and be perverted away from the people's best interest pick authoritarianism.
>>27644667
>DURR YOU DON'T WANNA GIVE 90 PERCENT OF YOUR HARD EARN MONEY TO A WAR HUNGRY, WASTEFUL SPENDING, NARCISSISTIC DICTATORSHIP GOVERNMENT??
>YOU'RE JUST A MEAN LIBRUL!
Admit anon, you only support facism because you cannot support yourself and you need a genocidal dictatorship to give you a meaning. I'm not trying to be a sjw, I'm not saying we need to let Tyrone fuck our wives, but if you think facism is going to solve all of your problems then your head is lodged firmly up your ass.
>inb4 cuck
No, you are the cuck
>>27644774
He's right though. Communism is a sort of terribly bastardized communitarianism, and liberalism is... liberalism. Fascism is communitarian as well.
>>27644894
Librulz an marksis an fukkin commie r gewin downnnnnnnn. Da wyte raysssss will rize up hu ra
>>27644818
>Truth IS reality no force or power changes that
too bad that has nothing to do with anything i said
>War is not about truth it is about might and cunning.
and what is might & cunning big boy?
it is truth, ie. power over reality.
want a system that is 100% guaranteed to produce systemic lies, freedom.
Holy fucking shit I'm so sick of seeing this retarded fucking thread on the top row.
Commies get the fuck out, you're all degenerates and your just as bad as SJWs, that's literally what you are too. I don't care if you don't own problem glasses or post on tumblr about privilege, you. are. an. SJW.
No amount of distancing yourselves from them is going to make you seem better.
>>>/oven/
>>27644667
>reject the argument that the individual is the most important element in society, like liberalism does
Most "liberal" ideology is based around nothing but the good of the individual, in all their endless hordes. Looking out for minorities and the poor is prioritizing individuals (the members of those groups) over the whole, which is better organized and more powerful at a macro level if it disregards any particular citizen and instead focuses on giving more power and control to the few at the top.
>>27644856
>anon, you only support facism because you cannot support yourself and you need a genocidal dictatorship to give you a meaning.
Under fascism people were paid to work, not paid to not work, as in liberalism.
>>27644946
So? I don't believe in The Individual as the most important aspect of society, because it's not true.
>>27644993
So how are Reagan supporters liberal to you then
>>27644993
Yeah but you're still whining to the government into handing you a job instead of actually earning or getting it
>>27645021
That aligns you with commies and marxists you dumb cunt.
>>27644980
That's nothing but sophistry and solipsism. Have fun jerking off to your power fantasies.
>>27644993
>be fascist
>useless to society
>get sent to labour camps
>wow so much better than being free
>tfw your first choice is ted cruz ans second choice is bernie sanders
It doesn't even make sense
>>27645286
>still cant prove me wrong
how does it feel being so certain im wrong but theres nothing you can do to prove it or even argue it in the slightest?
>>27645351
What more proof do you need than the present? Name a modern, successful authoritarian state. You can't. Liberal countries out perform all others in every metric.
>>27635350
Yeah, quit trying to make new public management a thing
>>27645396
name me a single utilitarian government. oh wait you cant
Who /fascist/ here?
Truly the only revolutionary ideology.
>>27645396
also, name a successful authoritarian state? really nigger? america and a few others are the only successful libertarian states.
>>27645439
>america
>libertarian
lmao
Why does every niggertarian always think "erthyng i liek is libertarian xD errthang I dont is communism >:( le free market jews said"
>>27645466
scroll up nigger, and blush a lil
>>27645413
>*shifting goalposts intensifies*
>>27645439
>le non-answer in question form
C'mon comrade you must try harder for glory of the great leader.
>>27645499
shifting goalposts? no just using the name of what ive been talking about instead of explaining it. thats what names are for.
also, the fact that there are literally countless successful authoritarian states completely disproves your main argument. (which was a strawman anyways, but i already win so idc)
>>27631364
Berniecuck here. If Bernie loses, I'm voting Trump. Fuck Shillary. Fuck the new world order. I don't care if we swing to the far left or to the far right, as long as we disrupt people's complacency.
>>27631455
This. However, I'm not on board with his ban on muslims (it will never pass anyway) and his nuclear comments were retarded, lets be honest.
>>27645569
>there are literally countless successful authoritarian states
And you can't name a single one. You couldn't name a utilitarian one either. Face it Liberalism has dominated since the Enlightenment for good reason. It creates the most successful economies and freest societies. It fits human nature to a tee.
>>27645655
china is succesful, north korea is succesful, the entire arab world... pretty much all ancient kingdoms...
there are no utilitarian governments because liberalism made it unecessary until now. now liberal libertarian countries are collapsing and utilitarianism is the only way to save them.
What's wrong with Trump exactly?
>>27645764
China isn't as authoritarian as you think. It just has a non-parliamentary democracy. I can see why you'd be confused but you'll learn as you grow up.
The other two are human rights violations with borders. You're grasping at straws kid.
