7.2% - WTF? Weren't the Greeks supposed to balance their budget? Why haven't they done so after 6 years of bailouts?
Also, how come there is such a massive West-South vs. North-Central-East divide in terms of budget discipline and debt?
>>71639163
Jesus just read a book from time to time you stupid nigger
Things should be fucking obvious especially for a german
Only Estonia follows the Maastricht agreement, everyone else is breaking it one way or another.
It's debt. As long as you can afford to pay interest, it doesn't matter how much there is. ECB keeps buying government bonds and pumping money to lower interests further to negative in an desperate effort to boost inflation.
At some point more people will realize that monetary economics and real economy are two different things. And as long as you keep the appearance of being able to handle your borrowing and spending, no one cares. Everyone else keeps up the façade of being responsible borrowers except those tards at Greece. At this point the whole financial world is one big Potemkin village.
come on guys, balancing the budget isn't fucking rocket science!
>>71639163
Greece actually has primary surplus now, that means that 7.2% are basically all debt payments
>>71639818
>come on guys, balancing the budget isn't fucking rocket science!
Tell me about it. Germany can do it, best budget surplus in 40 years last year. Germany is on its way to 50% debt to GDP ratio in 2020 and paying off most of its debt by 2030.
Why are nigger countries such as France, Greece, the UK and the US such overspending shitholes?
>>71640358
>Greece actually has primary surplus now, that means that 7.2% are basically all debt payments
It did not have a primary budget surplus in 2015, but a primary budget deficit of 0.5 to 1% (disputed by Tsipras). But who cares, if they cannot balance their budget, it is over, finito, done, they are fucked.
>>71641293
yeah but they had like 15% deficit in 2009
>>71639163
Ok, I know it's hard but do the math:
Greece had a primary surplus of 0.7% in 2015. That means that the Greek government earned more money than what they spent pretty much more than any other country in Europe proportionally. So, what leads to this deficit? This means that the EU and other creditors demanded Greece repay 7,9% of GDP in debt in just a single year.
This is simply absurd. What makes you think that any other country could possibly repay that much in a single year?
If anything, this idiocy is why your governments will be forced by the ECB as part of this bailout to erase part of the debt next month.
>>71641636
>This idiocy
On the EU's part always, not Germany's.
Since most infrastructure has been bought by german companies after germany demanded le debt budget balance (just a coincidence) it's quite surprising greece is doing fairly good in budgeting before debt.
It may come as a shock but your country sucking up all their money makers means they will take more to get out of shit, it they ever will.
What makes me astonished is that germans love refugees and bleed their heart out for them but greeks can burn and starve because they are lazy eheh.
>>71639163
Did you really expect them to? Its literally a resort nation full of nobodies... busboys and waiters
Is the EU letting Greece default just so that it can privatise all of its state owned assets?
>>71641636
>This is simply absurd. What makes you think that any other country could possibly repay that much in a single year?
Actually, Germany had a primary budget surplus of 4.0% in 2015. Greece is supposed to just have a primary budget surplus of 3.5% in 2018 or so.
Having said all that, Germany was the only country to pressure Greece to get out of the Eurozone, get a massive Paris-style debt cut and reintroduce the Drachma. But Tsipras, for whatever reason, didn't want that (because it would have been the end of his career).
Your government built up the debt, unless it wants to do a debt restructuring outside the Eurozone, you guys have only yourself to blame to have to pay interest on the debt.
>>71641636
>If anything, this idiocy is why your governments will be forced by the ECB as part of this bailout to erase part of the debt next month.
P.S. the EU treaties do not allow for a debt haircut within the Eurozone. And a country has to leave the EU first to get out of the Eurozone.
So I hardly doubt that "next month" there will be any debt erasing of Greece whatsoever. It will take another 2-3 years until Greece finally ends it and leaves the Eurozone and EU and reintroduces the Drachma and gets an Argentina type debt restructuring.
A budget deficit isn't necessarily bad for the economy. It all depends on how the government is handling the money, if the results in sustainable growth it's ok to have a budget deficit.
>>71642450
greece will never leave the EU
The EU will never let them leave
>>71639163
seems like the measures imposed are working really well
>>71642162
>What makes me astonished is that germans love refugees and bleed their heart out for them but greeks can burn and starve because they are lazy eheh.
Germans want to follow the rules. The rules say refugees need to be processed - unfortunately Greece, against the rules, waived them all through to Germany, where they were then processed.
As to Greek finances, Greeks did not follow the rules (they defrauded people) and still do not follow rules. So Germany essentially each month tells Greece "follow the rules, or get the fuck out of our Eurozone and EU" and Greece is then pressured to do what Germany wants. Ad infinitum. Why Greece doesn't fuck off for good is beyond me, if they had done that in 2010 or even in 2008, Greece would be back on the path of recovery right now with a devalued Drachma and lower unemployment.
>>71642162
>It may come as a shock but your country sucking up all their money makers means they will take more to get out of shit, if they ever will.
Actually, it's more than that. They literally sell us debt so we can pay off the previous debt... Every time with better terms for us, and worse terms for them. I don't know how it's politically possible for all Eurozone countries to keep doing this at this point.
>>71642327
I too would prefer the Drachma option. But at the end of the day a government has to be accountable to the voters. Greek voters just didn't want that.
>>71642450
A) Treaties change. There is no way a Grexit would mean an exit from the EU. Greeks don't want to leave and the EU won't let us either.
B) Although it is true that technically there cannot be any haircut to the debt, debt forgiveness can mean multiple things that are possible, such as negative interest rates, delays in repayments and shit like that. You guys have already signed for this particular ride.
>>71642491
>if the results in sustainable growth it's ok to have a budget deficit.
That is why you look at the GDP-to-debt ratio. And that is fucking high in most of Western Europe, with pretty much the exception of Germany which is rapidly reducing its GDP-to-debt ratio by winding up bad banks and having budget surpluses and moderate GDP growth.
>>71642529
>greece will never leave the EU
>The EU will never let them leave
Germany IS the EU. And Germany pretty much told them to leave back in July 2015. Greece refused and then sucked it up and signed the last bailout which included such provisions as "pay 50 billion in assets to an account for Germany". Germany wisely said there is going to be a review of Greek efforts, which is going on right now. In that review Germany wants more austerity and more reforms. And Greece will not be able to deliver this shit, so if Brexit happens, Greece is toast and out of the EU and Eurozone.
>>71639163
>Massacre the infrastructure
>Expect positive results
>>71642732
>. I don't know how it's politically possible for all Eurozone countries to keep doing this at this point.
It is not. It is politically very problematic, which is why we are gearing up to a final final final showdown. There is so much the voters take when it comes to handing free money to Greece.
>>71642732
>I too would prefer the Drachma option. But at the end of the day a government has to be accountable to the voters. Greek voters just didn't want that.
Sometimes the government needs to do what is necessary, even if voters think otherwise.
>>71642732
>Treaties change. There is no way a Grexit would mean an exit from the EU.
I hardly doubt you can get the agreement of 28 EU states to a fundamental question which Germany is against on a fundamental basis.
Technically, the only way to exit the Eurozone is to leave the EU and reapply. Sorry to say.
>>71642732
>debt forgiveness can mean multiple things that are possible, such as negative interest rates
The ECJ and ECB already said, interest rates below (ESM = German) refinancing rates of about 1% for long-term debt would violate the intra-state aid prohibition. So negative interest rates and even interest rates below German market rates, are impossible to agree to legally.
Delays in repayment and maturity extensions, yes, but how does this help? It just pushes the problem out further.
>>71642891
shut the fuck up nigger. You germans are always thinking you are the fucking best
>Germany IS the EU
>Germany wisely said
>etc.
If Greece doesnt payback the ones who are in trouble aren't them, it's you.
>>71643282
>shut the fuck up nigger. You germans are always thinking you are the fucking best
Sorry to say, but we ARE the fucking best. Biggest economy, most solid manufacturing base, best machinery and cars, best tech sector in Europe, richest country, highest budget surplus, fastest falling GDP-to-debt ratio, leading the EU, telling Greece what to do, telling Spain what to do, lowest unemployment etc.
You can be jealous, but you cannot deny that we are the fucking best.
>>71643282
>If Greece doesnt payback the ones who are in trouble aren't them, it's you.
Nope. We were the ones who said they shouldn't pay back shit, but just fuck off out of the Eurozone and the EU. That was our policy in 2015 - we were the only country saying so. But Greece didn't take the offer, they agreed to all the draconian shit we asked them to do.
>>71642891
> 1. Greece is more vital for the existence of Europe than vice versa
> 2. Geopolitical, Greece is one of the most important key-locations in Europa
> 3. If Germany wanted them to leave they wouldn't have bailed them out AGAIN last summer
> 4. Stop hating on Greece they literally said fuck you to the IMF and the ECB by just saying well yeah those loans you gave is, fuck you buddy, and now you're butthurt
>>71643618
>1. Greece is more vital for the existence of Europe than vice versa
Doubt it, we have our own yoghurt and can import olives from Spain.
>> 2. Geopolitical, Greece is one of the most important key-locations in Europa
Is that why European countries had to help secure the Macedonian and Bulgarian borders to Greece because of the shitshow Greece is?
>> 3. If Germany wanted them to leave they wouldn't have bailed them out AGAIN last summer
Wrong, Schäuble was the only one who suggested they leave, all other EU countries lobbied for them to stay. Germany wanted for them to get out, introduce the Drachma and get a massive debt haircut. But Greece refused. So Germany said "fine, but then you have to do turbo-austerity so you can pay us back" - now this bites Greece in the ass.
>> 4. Stop hating on Greece they literally said fuck you to the IMF and the ECB by just saying well yeah those loans you gave is, fuck you buddy, and now you're butthurt
They can say fuck you all the time. We want that. We love for them to not comply with shit and go bankrupt and fuck off out of the EU and Eurozone as soon as possible.
>>71642789
Actually the very ethicacy of Germany's low debt can be put under question. All of this is happening because we basically had to bail out German banks, in addition to our own.
When the crisis first hit in 2008 we could have defaulted then overnight. Back then the debt was held almost exclusively by German banks, who of course Germany would then have borrow money to bail out.
EU countries getting bailed out with the prospect that Germany will get the money back in the long-term is actually a fairly decent risk management scheme, that has worked wonders in Germany's favor as far as debt goes.
If it weren't for this, Germany would have to borrow a lot more money at much bigger interest rates and basically throw it all to the banks right away, in the hopes that a financial meltdown would be avoided. Except that it wouldn't, because the very act of all of those countries defaulting would send the Euro to the grave.
So, yeah, the bailouts suck. But they suck less than the alternative, and that is why Greek or German governments keep up with them.
It's hardly free money for us. It's a shitty compromise, to keep a monopoly rectum derived currency from imploding on its own faulty structure.
>>71643282
Germany pretty much IS the EU at this point. German policy has a huge impact on how the EU's policies plays out.
It all comes down to trade, and since Germany is the biggest, our leaders thread carefully.
>>71639163
Just think about it.
You loan someone money.
It's time for him to pay you back but he doesn't have the money. You loan him some more so he won't lose his job.
Repeat this 2 or 3 times.
What incentive does he have to pay you?
He knows you're going to bail him out anyway.
>>71643879
>we run the EU
>other countries stopped uw from doing our will
Which is it?
>>71640358
>getting into debt to pay debts
Fuccking retards. It didn't work here in 2001, why would it work there?
And our deficit was only 1% of GDP...
>>71643529
look nigga I am not jelous of anything. My family is half german and will start working at an american Investment Bank in London this July. So at this point I don't even give a shit about Spain as I really do not feel identified with it. I only care about my future and my income.
But as I frequently visit my german grandmother I can only say that germans are the most arrogant people on Earth. (not her, but all the people I meet over there, they just think they are superior to the rest. And btw your way of thinking that you are superior to the rest of Europe is what made you start WWI and WWII)
And as I said, if Greece doesn't payback you are really fucked up, because most of the money came from German banks. It will be fun to see Deutsche Bank with it's tremendous loss this year struggling if Greece doesn't pay their debts kek
fuck u nigga
>>71643911
>All of this is happening because we basically had to bail out German banks, in addition to our own.
The 30 billion German banks had invested in Greek banks, were nothing against the 300 billion we used to bail out German banks. Not to mention the 100 billion we already invested in Greece post 2010.
The French, American and British banks all had substantial investments in Greek debt, the French banks and shaddow banks were a lot more invested than German institutions.
>>71643911
>Back then the debt was held almost exclusively by German banks, who of course Germany would then have borrow money to bail out.
Where do these fantasies come from? German banks held 43 million dollars (then 30 million Euros) in Greek debt in 2009 - see pic related.
>>71643529
Stop boasting Hans.
The Brits will be the largest economy in Europe soon whether you like it or not.
Then you can finally shut up about how good your boring country is
P.S have fun with 1 million refugees each year
>>71640358
RAAARE FLAG
Gotta catchem all
>>71644439
>71644439
Instead of hating on Greece you could better invest some money in NAGN (greece national bank) in Frankfurt and do something usefull for the better of Europe.
Maybe
just maybe
You could earn al lot of money by doing nothing
>>71644026
>Repeat this 2 or 3 times.
>What incentive does he have to pay you?
We don't just hand Greece money. We tell Greece pretty much what to do - cut pensions, increase taxes, fire people, stop healthcare services, sell assets, reform reform reform etc.
I could see your point if we just handed over money and said "fine, here it is", but we do not. Greece is hurting a lot and would be better off if it fucked out of the Eurozone and EU (and had done that in 2008 already).
>>71642450
>Argentina type debt restructuring.
The restructuring is a lie, we ended up paying more than the original debt. And then we had a decade of legal disputes that ended with us paying up to our necks, there was no EU and no ECB to bail us out, and our deficit was only 1% of GDP (there was a primary surplus from the very beginning), not 7% as in Greece.
I hope Greece has to pay for generations, it would be the only fair outcome.
>>71643911
>rectum derived currency
>>71644131
>Which is it?
The "we run the EU" is it.
We told Greece "best thing you can do is exit the Eurozone and technically also the EU". But we also told them "if you do x, y and z and pay us all the money back eventually, fine, you can stay". And Greece signed up to a massive austerity package, much harsher than we proposed in early 2015. Why they did it, I cannot imagine.
>>71644439
>Where do these fantasies come from? German banks held 43 million dollars (then 30 million Euros) in Greek debt in 2009 - see pic related.
Bruh, sorry that was uninformed on me. Still it wouldn't change the fact that at least half of the debt was held by Eurozone banks. It's hardly different when it comes to the impact a Greek default would have.
Also at no point in this thread have I suggested that it's not the fault of past Greek governments 100%.
>>71644641
It is.
>>71644462
>The Brits will be the largest economy in Europe soon whether you like it or not.
That was based on old demographic projections in which Germans population would have fallen to 75 million by 2030 and British population would have increased to 75 million.
This is not going to happen. By 2030, Germany will have 85 million and the Brits probably, following Brexit, only 70-72 million people. No way that the UK surpasses Germany as the largest economy in 2030 or any time in the 21st century.
I love how greece was getting raped by EU(read Rothschild) all these years in secret while they think their actual enemy were turks.
>>71644721
>Still it wouldn't change the fact that at least half of the debt was held by Eurozone banks. It's hardly different when it comes to the impact a Greek default would have.
Again, we bailed out German banks with 300 billion in Germany alone. The French might have had some problems, for us it was just a minor nuisance in an overall shitty situation.
And Greece would have paid 30 cents on the Euro or so, so of the 30 billion Euros, only 20 billion Euros would actually be lost. Big fucking deal.
>>71644879
by 2030 new syria will have to compete with new pakistan and that really shouldn't bother us
>>71644612
>The restructuring is a lie, we ended up paying more than the original debt. And then we had a decade of legal disputes that ended with us paying up to our necks, there was no EU and no ECB to bail us out, and our deficit was only 1% of GDP (there was a primary surplus from the very beginning), not 7% as in Greece.
The point is that you are slowly recovering. Greece has just postponed a financial collapse for years. If it had gone bankrupt in 2008, it could be in the position that Argentina was in 2010 or so now, so a few years until real recovery. But now Greece won't recover until 2025 or 2030 at the earliest.
>>71644879
How many of those refugees will actually contribute anything to the economy?
They'll only strain it even more.
>>71644559
I wouldn't touch anything Greek at this point. I advise everyone not to buy Greek products or go on vacation to Greece or even mentioning Greece in any conversations.
Greece needs to fuck off out of the Eurozone and EU and be like Albania or Macedonia, a shithole next to Turkey, broke and lazy and corrupt.
>>71644931
>Grease raped by the EU
Oh no, they are telling me to pay 24% VAT instead of 23%... I am so being RAPED you guize.
>>71645021
Dude, chil. Of course you're fucking right. We done goofed in the 90s and early 2000s. But I've seen it myself. This new generation is different. The crisis has taught us a lot collectively, and with the slightest change in moral (or with the slightest influx of low skilled workers) you can expect Grease to do reasonably well in the next decades.
The era of hard socialism in Grease is over now. Even Syriza (The Coalition of the Left) had pretty much admitted it. The era of gibs is over.
>>71639163
having a budget based on reality is called 'austerity' now days
if they didn't have a massively inefficient govt they would have more than sufficient revenue without borrowing
>>71645157
>How many of those refugees will actually contribute anything to the economy?
The refugees are irrelevant. We get millions of EU citizens which move to Germany each year.
2 million people moved to Germany in 2015, only 600k of them were "refugees". The rest were EU citizens and non-EU legal migrants. They have jobs and work.
>>71645383
>The era of hard socialism in Grease is over now. Even Syriza (The Coalition of the Left) had pretty much admitted it. The era of gibs is over.
I actually believe it. I believe that Greece and Greeks are trying. The problem is that it will still take forever for Greece to get its act together financially. I fully expect that in 2020 this whole drama will still be going on with the same damn Troika discussions. Not sure that helps anyone.
>>71645405
>>71645260
>Greeks should fuck off
>refugees are irrelevant
>only 600k
>>71645576
He doesn't even take into consideration, that most of those "legal" migrants are Muslims.
>>71643237
>It is not. It is politically very problematic, which is why we are gearing up to a final final final showdown. There is so much the voters take when it comes to handing free money to Greece.
>rapefugees welcome
you deserve everything you get
>>71645576
Not sure what your point is.
>>Greeks should fuck off
Greeks were responsible for waving through all the fugees. Right now, fugees are being held on Greek islands. If Greece had done this, which they could have, since the start of the crisis last year, pretty much no fugees would have gotten to Germany and there would have been no crisis and noone would have tried to come to Greek islands last summer and fall.
>>refugees are irrelevant
Yes, compared to EU citizen migratioon, that is correct.
>>only 600k
Yes, only 600k compared to 1.4 million non-fugees who came to Germany in 2015.
>>71645523
>The problem is that it will still take forever for Greece to get its act together financially
We can always wait and see you know. I bant help but notice that there is much less unrest with Tsipras in power and his revival of some social programs for the absolute poorest. This is a significantly better environment for things to click than every before since the past 7 years, at least.
We're still neck deep into shit and I wouldn't bet on us... but at least now we have a rope to either pull ourselves out or hang ourselves.
>>71646091
>I bant help but notice that there is much less unrest with Tsipras in power and his revival of some social programs for the absolute poorest. This is a significantly better environment for things to click than every before since the past 7 years, at least.
So you are fine with very slow progress and still 20%+ unemployment by 2020. Not to mention that there is a big fucking chance of a new world recession across the world in the next 5 years which will fuck Greece in the ass royally too.
kek it just hit me this "german" is just a butthurt shitskin Turk hating on Greece because he can't comprehend the fact that after all this shit Greece is still a better country than Turkey
>>71645405
You lost 600k refugees in your country
over a million came
>>71645383
I consider fucking up a country's industry rape, my gayreek friend.
Yeah you sure learned your lesson
http://www.reuters.com/article/greece-banks-idUSL5N0F428M20130628
Stay delusional faggot, you are going to end up worse than us. At least we are used to being shit.
>>71646317
Or a really butthurt autist still salty because his grandfather served as a Clay pigeon target during the invasion of Crete
Doesn't Greece have a stronker army than Germany? One of the strongest in Europe, in fact?
>>71639163
>Bulgaria is corrupt as fuck
>politically instable
>stull manage budget discipline
get your shit together western cucks
>>71646660
I do know they spend >2% of their GDP on their military budget which is a good feat!
>>71646660
The Greece army is equipped with German products, and I assume servicing that equipment is done via Germany. Strength is always relative to what it depends on. Like our nuclear programme, which is utterly dependent on the US (not just politically).
>>71639163
You're going to have to bail them again this year, then again in a few years, then again...
Until they finally pull out of the EU, Euro & void the debt. Which will spark the complete collapse of the Euro zone economy as Deutsche Bank collapses & the Euro fails.
Then all your guests are going to go full scale rape, mass murder when you tell them you can't pay them. Hans will be out there jerking it as his mother, sisters & daughters get enriched.
>>71646266
I still don't see myself leaving Greece regardless. It's just more fun here. I've always had a job since i turned 18. They weren't always pleasant but I always was able to make a living.
>>71646660
>Doesn't Greece have a stronker army than Germany? One of the strongest in Europe, in fact?
Yes but I don't think it really compares.
plus >>71646793
>>71646868
Please leave the eu britbong
cause we'll follow http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/04/swedes-tell-britain-if-you-leave-the-eu-well-follow/
rip in piss eu
>>71641293
STFU Son of soviet rape, you destroyed the continent twice and cost us all the colony.
Biggest mistake of USA was to not nuke your whole country, Europe would be so much better by now without you.
>>71646660
We do but here's the catch, krauts are supported by the US militarily.
>>71647061
This
Europe was alot better when France and the Brits were the main powers of Europe to be quite frankly
>>71639163
-2.1
REEEEEEEEEEEEE
>>71639163
why are you surprised?
they've been giving Greece more and more rope, delaying actual consequences
you think they would just change on their own?
"the old guard dies, but never surrenders"
had you forgive Greece denbts they would be able to cope with the rapefugees
