/liberty/ - Libertarian General
- Home
- Board: /pol/ - Politically Incorrect
- Reading: /liberty/ - Libertarian General
This thread is for the discussion of the libertarian ideology, decentralization and current events, local or global.
-Recent articles or events:
>Hans Hermann Hoppe on the EU: A Sinkhole of Economic and Moral Perversion
https://lewrockwell.com/2016/07/hans-hermann-hoppe/sinkhole-economic-moral-perversion/
>The Death of Conservatism, by Paul Gottfried.
https://lewrockwell.com/2016/07/paul-gottfried/death-conservatism/
>Abolish government police, by Murray N. Rothbard.
https://lewrockwell.com/2016/07/murray-n-rothbard/abolish-government-police/
-Sources of information:
>http://www.libertarianism.org/
>https://mises.org/
>https://lewrockwell.com
-Questions:
What are the prospects for freedom in your country?
Do any parties promote the reduction of government and decentralization there?
I agree with almost all the Libertarian arguments but they need a bit more reality...When will you become Nationalist Libertarians?
>>80844106
Because nationalism isn't really an opposition to globalism, it's just globalism lite.
Both nationalism and globalism believe in strong central governments and economic and social interventionism, often enforcing an official "culture". The only difference among the both is the number of governments to be (either one or a few hundred). Nationalism isn't for decentralization and reduction and devolution of government power to society. Nationalism has absolutely nothing to do with freedom.
What that "Libertarian Nationalism" even is? You can't just smack together two different ideas and pretend it's an ideology that actually exists and makes sense.
Is there really any relevant literature on this ideology or is it entirely a term made up by /pol/acks?
>>80844669
Q1. Why are you not ancap?
Where civilisation is heading there is no freedom worth having, a nationalist state will prop up a culture that lets freedom flourish (think USA minus 30 years or more).
Q2. How will you sustain this freedom when you can what current trends are doing?
Libertarian Nationalism is not a mishmash, it is a respect of freedom in the culture and freedom is granted to the citizens by means of a constitution (specifically the US constitution). However, it is also the recognition that this is only sustainable with a strong support from a government. This need not mean the government controls much (certainly not economically) nor that rights of citizens have to be suppressed, simply that there is a default support for the country from the government, the policies it is allowed to enact etc
>>80845519
*can see what current trends are doing
Implementing libertarianism is basically giving the Jews a free pass to completely taking over your media and allow them to brainwash the silly gentiles in doing all kinds of decadency such as destroying their lives with heroine, prostitution, bestiality, pornography, modern art, homosexuality, etc
Literally Sodom and Gomorrah.
Are you by any chance a pedofile?
>>80846629
>implying it's the benevolent State that protects us from the jews
Shoo shoo. /pol/ is a Keynesian nationalist board.
>>80846960
go away fag
bring back /pol/ to 08 standards
>>80846960
Austrian Nationalist, baka
>>80842862
You forgot:
http://www.econlib.org/library/CEE.html
We have the VVD which is a conservative liberal party, and like most countries a much smaller actual ''libertarian" party.
Nonetheless according to the Political Compass the Netherlands' was the closest European country to based purple quadrant in 2012, so that's good.
>>80847145
>Any of these countries being right wing
except maybe Poland this is simply retarded
>>80846816
A nationalist state, yes. It's the ''liberty movement'' of the last 300 years that allowed the Jews to gain such wealth and influence.
I personally am a conservative, constitutional monarchist, white nationalist, authoritarian and militarist.
What I don't get are all the communists who oppose libertarianism.
You can run a commune in a libertarian society. The rest of society will gladly trade with you.
>>80847382
They want power, it has always been about power, they cannot win ideological arguments
>>80847382
If you're a full blown communist you want the entire world to become communist.
Technically, a communist would support capitalism because communists believe that the unleashing of capitalism will lead to the next stage of history, which is communistic.
Go to the revleft forum, communists actually vote libertarian in the hope that it will lead to massive wealth disparities, child labour and pollution so that the 'proletariat' rises up again, these people are delusional just like libertards
Ah libertarianism. When the market demands people to turn into docile low IQ slaves with drug addiction and there's nothing that can stop that process.
I'm just going to poison the water supply THAT I OWN. IT'S ON MY PROPERTY. I'm just going to poison it with some krokodil and then offer to treat people at the only hospital in the city, the hospital that I OWN, the hospital WHERE I CAN MAKE THE PRICES AS HIGH AS I WANT and then I'm going to fail to treat them and instead harvest their organs and sell them to the Chinese.
>>80847381
You couldn't be further from the truth.
The FCC and Telecom regulation, which only sprouted in the latter half of the 20th Century, granted Jews a government sanctioned monopoly over the media (six corps owning 90% etc etc)
Were competition allowed entry into the market, their stranglehold would not be secure.
Whatever prolonged "liberty movement" you're talking about ended long ago, you should reevaluate the government's protective capacity.
>>80847145
>>80847273
The fact that all the countries are in the top right show how the lower left quadrant does exist.
The lower left halves of the red and purple don't exist either.
There are only three extremes in political science, anarcho-capitalism, liberal conservatism and communism.
>>80846629
Nice (((meme))).
>>80846960
Stop shitting this board, stupid Stormfront Shills.
>>80848016
saved ;)
>>80842862
I'd like to begin a crash course in this type of stuff, where should I start?
>>80848631
Atlas shrugged, i'd say. Are you 15?
>>80847798
Only a Swede can be this ignorant. Have fun with your socialism, tell Sadiq I say hi.
>>80848178
Do you really believe that these convoluted overspecific scenarios would be endemic problems?
>>80848631
Henry Hazlitt -- Economics in One Lesson
Quick read, brings you through a lot of topics
>>80848631
Libertarianism: A Primer
Or if you're more into difficult books you could read pretty much anything in OP.
>>80842862
any place for a right wing anarchist?
>>80848111
In economics circles we libertarians have to emphasize the roll of the entrepreneur.
It's the only way we can start to eliminate the marxist way of thinking about surplus labour.
>>80848178
>>80848219
>>80848256
>>80848521
>>80848563
>>80848657
>>80848736
>Alberto has all memes and no arguments
>>80848876
What is that exactly? There's anarcho-capitalism.
>>80848736
pls continue
molyneux is an old fuckin cunt in his midlife crisis
>>80848631
Start with something like 'Wealth, Poverty and Politics' - Sowell, or 'Road to Serfdom' - Hayek, do not start with Atlas Shrugged ffs
>>80848950
not an argument
>>80848916
This.
All the bullshit scenarios of an upper class of pure evil can be dealt with by someone else competing with them and taking their spot
>>80848950
>implying its all memes
It's just arguments to ridicule lolbertarianism and ancap. I just mock you faggots
>>80848736
No, I'm 22 and have a lot of spare time on my hands which I want to turn into something more productive than shitposting on pol
>>80847597
>>80847569
>>80847382
Find me a single genuine communist nowadays who actually understands what communism is about.
Most are either just the feel-good type people who want everyone to be friends and nice to each other or the self-righteous "I was kicked out of my job for underperforming" haters of people richer than themselves. And then there are the subversive globalists who keep the regular thoughtless communists/socialists directed against nationalism.
>>80849015
>Ron Paul on the far left
No
>>80848876
Hans-Hermann Hoppe
>>80849112
It's abundantly clear that you got your opinions from these memes. Had you spent five minutes looking into the fundamentals of the ideology, you'd be able to recognize them as bullshit.
You aren't convincing anyone, you're just exposing your intellectual laziness.
>>80849279
What are you doing bro? studying? working part time? NEET?
>>80849323
No disagreeing here
>>80844669
At one point, didn't someone like... Make all that literature up?? You know.. Kinda like everything.
>>80849015
The nose knows.
>>80849279
And yet here we are, both of us, on pol.
>>80848631
It depends on what you want to learn. What do you want to learn? Ethics,politics or economics?
>>80849323
>Find me a single genuine communist nowadays who actually understands what communism is about.
You won't find them on /pol/, that is for sure.
Well, for starters, you could go to >>>/leftypol/.
Or ask nicely on /lit/.
>>80849329
>Had you spent five minutes looking into the fundamentals of the ideology
I did bro.
>you'd be able to recognize them as bullshit.
argue then. For example, tell me why this one is bullshit
>>80848219
>>80849373
Study at uni but summer break is like 3 fucking whole months. Only have a part time job as bartender, so lot of free time to do nothing right now.
>>80848876
Hoppe is probably the most right wing person on earth and he is an anarchist.
>>80849323
Communism is like what Slavoj Žižek says, 'pure ideology'.
:^)
>>80849015
im a reactionary anarchist
supporting old school monarchist feudalism,
like the world was in the 6th century,
imagine it as a mix of old rx and ancap ideas
>>80849329
To be clear, it's "left" on the libertarian spectrum. As far as I know, Paul is pretty much a moderate libertarian (in comparison to other people). If anyone in the government went farther right they would be ostracized (though yes, he does not hold a position anymore).
>>80848631
Well, I always recommend Capitalism and Freedom, but that's because it's easy to knock out in an afternoon and you'll get a good sense of whether or not you respect Friedman's economics.
Daily reminder that the mormon church is the greatest ally of libertarianism.
>>80849536
Maybe some literature about your course would be better? I'd say libertarianism is a dead and stupid ideology, easily on the same level as socialism and communism. It was literally never tried
>>80849588
I don't think you could count yourself as a libertarian. The comparison between anarcho-capitalism and feudalism is just a meme.
I'm not an anarcho-capitalist myself (I'm more of a classical liberal) because I'm not convinced it would work, but in theory, anarcho-capitalism does not operate like feudalism at all.
>>80849522
>/leftypol/
That place is empty and full of morons. And communism is an outdated ideology,as capitalism has evolved on the opposite direction than Marx's predictions
>>80849559
guys I support and generally agree with them are:
de maistre - french philosopher
evola - italian philosopher
kaczynski - famous bomber
korwin - polish politician
...
I guess you get the idea
>>80849522
>I did bro
Sure
It's bullshit because:
>There's no reason to starve a kid you could simply give away
>There's no reason to fend off people trying to take care of your baby just to let him starve
>Most importantly, it's perfectly permissible under the NAP to defend the kid if you're barring him from leaving and forcing him to starve
Was that so hard? You just exposed your laziness even further.
How can you claim to have looked into the ideology while your images directly contradict themselves on the most basic levels?
You have no clue what you're talking about, and it's abundantly clear.
>>80849819
Anarcho capitalism can only work with church like structures like the mormon one. For ancap to work,the population has to gain a different set of ethics and a higher sense of responsability
>>80842862
>not a single word on how to push your agenda
enjoy never being free faggots s
>>80849957
Expect this.
>>80849819
I know, I'm not ancap, just listing it because you guys here on pol are more familiar with it so you get the closer idea,
same thing with libertarianism - although it's different, it has a lot in common with archaic ideologies such as this
>>80849845
>And communism is an outdated ideology,as capitalism has evolved on the opposite direction than Marx's predictions
True, it diverged from Marx predictions in the turn of the 20th century, thanks to the welfare state and the rise of the service industry.
But nowadays it's coming close. Only UBI will save capitalism for another couple of decades.
>That place is empty and full of morons.
You've been there?
>>80850004
Not necessarily. There's precedents of private law societies that weren't specially deeply religious.
Anarcho-capitalism is not about no law enforcement.
>>80849522
Not everyone here is an an-cap you know.
Ancaps are only a vocal minority amongst libertarians.
That being said, in an ancap society enough people would want your child liberated from you that they'd likely rally to kill you despite the NAP.
All private police forces would likely find you abhorrent and not defend you either. And even if you had your own, good luck being able to find enough people willing to put up with you morally. And good luck holding down a job with your reputation to be able to afford that.
Friendly reminder to refer to libertarian and classical liberal ideas as liberal and the scum that stole the name of our ideology as modern "liberals", quotation marks included.
Time to make people see why the world liberal used to be esteemed in the old days.
>>80850130
Thank you based Pole.
We really need to start doing this. At least the Liberal party here has a classical liberal faction.
>>80850130
Doesn't liberal still mean what it used to in Europe? Whenever I talk about "liberals" I say American liberal.
>>80850130
Aye
>>80850130
it used to be esteemed only with the radical youth and antisocietal edgelords while the profeudal rural population did all the work while they were trying to destroy the society (and eventually succeeded)
>>80849957
>There's no reason to starve a kid you could simply give away
People don't need reason to do stuff. Are you autistic? So you are saying that there is no mechanism to stop that from hapenning?
>>There's no reason to fend off people trying to take care of your baby just to let him starve
Yes there is. They are violating your property rights.
>>Most importantly, it's perfectly permissible under the NAP to defend the kid if you're barring him from leaving and forcing him to starve
The kid is allowed to defend himslef. But the other people can initiate force to rescue someone on private property? So what is the limit to this NAP thing? I can trespass somebody private property if i see someone scraping his knee?
Libertarianism and ancap is all just ideology. You can never reconcile your ideology with people that don't want to participate in your ideology
I could see how you can be a liberal in 1900 but now that it has all been achieved how can you still want to be a liberal seeing all of it? And I'm talking about emancipation and voting rights. You have achieved your goals, you can stop being a liberal now.
>>80849753
Probably should do some course related literature, only problem is my entire curriculum is Jewish
>>80849879
> Egalitarian and relativistic sentiments find steady support among ever new generations of adolescents. Owing to their still incomplete mental development, juveniles, especially of the male variety, are always susceptible to both ideas.
>>80850105
>Not everyone here is an an-cap you know.
I know, but i never quite understood the difference. Too me it only seems that lolbertarianism is the middle ground fallacy of ancap. I'm not sure if lolbertarians belive in NAP
>>80842862
>Libertarianism
You stupid fucks couldn't even come up with your own name. So you stole it from left wing anarchists
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
>>80850373
So you're claiming that people will voluntarily act against their own interests?
>>80850407
>ITS DA JOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOS
Nevermind, you will do just fine with lolbertarians and ancaps
>>80850049
>True, it diverged from Marx predictions in the turn of the 20th century, thanks to the welfare state
The countries with fewer welfare state are the most pro caputalistic in the world.
> You've been there?
Like 3 times. /his/ is a better place to discuss things like this than leftypol
>>80850095
None of those were anarchies. The colonization of the west of the US would be the closest things to ancap in some cases and relied heavily on family unit and local churches.
>enter thread to dump anti-lolbergtard memes
>based Portubro has already done
>>80850370
Maybe in the balkan region it was so, but in the more civilized parts of the world it was the ideology of a free and industrious, ambitious man.
>>80850323
Europe is much more diverse in this regard, in some places it's just like in the US, in some others it's still sane. For example here in Poland the word liberal is barely used in politics, while still perserving it's original meaning outside of that field. When donouncing the useful idiots I usually say modern "liberals" or western "liberals", so the target is quite defined.
>>80850522
In Britain they're called liberals. Jeffersonian progressives co-opted the term so American liberals have to call themselves libertarian to avoid being lumped in with socialists and neoliberal identarians.
>>80847798
Gas the swedes
>>80850520
refer to
>>80849015
And on all parts of the spectrum you have deontologists (NAP) and consequentialists. David Friedman, for example, is a consequentialist anarcho-capitalist.
>>80850695
nope
in balkan region they didn't even exist
I am talking about those parts of the world
Liberalism is a slippery slope
It started back in the 1800's and look were we're now
>>80850373
You yourself are violating the NAP by starving the kid, and any violation of the NAP makes whoever committed it unaffected by it's protection - basically torturing your kid makes you an outlaw, free for anyone to end.
>>80850520
Classic liberalism: small dtate with few responsabilities based on John Locke's philosophy
Ancap: Stateless capitalist society.
>>80850544
Yes. It's called living in society
>I have 2 candy
>I want to eat 2 candy
>My brother as no candy
>I will share my candy with him
And then there is the dumb people who are too dumb to know what are their own interests.
And then there is the crazy folk, whose own interests are, well, crazy ("i will kill my son because he his the spawn of devil!!!")
ANd then there is the more ideological folk, who want to destroy the libertarian society from within
And then there is the foreign menaces.
>>80850721
Not libertarian in the slightest. The current libertarian party is democrat controlled opposition.
Those """"libertarians"""" will be physically removed ;)
>>80850648
Indeed, this is why every workers' collective has succeeded comprehensively.
>>80842862
Hoppe isn't really a libertarian anymore. He's basically a anarcho fascist.
>>80850860
>. He's basically a anarcho fascist.
i.e. libertarian
>>80850373
>People don't need a reason to do stuff
Typical leftist defense. You're casting a scenario with extremely low likelihood, against the interest of the party involved, acknowledging there's no reason for it to happen, and asserting it would be an endemic issue in spite of that
>Yes there is. They are violating your property rights.
Why would someone actively resist taking care of a kid they don't want?
>The kid is allowed to defend himslef. But the other people can initiate force to rescue someone on private property?
Ever heard of private security? Or being a good Samaritan?
My point is, third parties can intervene to enforce the NAP. If you witness someone killing another person, i.e. forcing them to stay on the property until they starve to death, then it is permissible to intervene.
>The kid is allowed to defend himslef. But the other people can initiate force to rescue someone on private property?
Wow, and you call me autistic?
You should know the limits since it's the most basic information out there, but you don't because you were educated by memes.
I'm starting to suspect you're leftypol with a new name, just based on the ignorance you're displaying.
How about you go read a book or two and come back with some fucking substance.
>>80850756
Antisocial edgelords such as the American separatists. Radical youth such as the very people who fought for freedom of others and their own. If that is the case, I see no wrong in it.
>>80850860
>a anarcho fascist.
>>80850609
>The countries with fewer welfare state are the most pro caputalistic in the world.
Like sweden?
>>80850730
Explain more in depth
>>80850693
easy to beat memesters like ancaps
I bet you an portugal have no real arguments against ideas I'm stating, which were the longest lasting in our history irl
except of course the ususal fallacies like:
muh serfdom
everyone whupports that must want to be the elite
its the current year!!!111!!!1111!1
>>80850796
And where does NAp start and end? Who is there to judge when the NAP is broken or not? So if i hit my kid because he behaved badly i am breaking the NAP?
>>80850823
>who are too dumb to know what are their own interests.
That is why organizations likebthe church are fundamental,to guide people to the right path and away from vicous behaviour.
>>80850819
>small dtate with few responsabilities
What responsabilities?
I already heard those 2 definitions thousands of times.
>>80850520
The main difference is that minarchists (libertarians) are concerned that law should be democratised and that national defence should be centralised.
The NAP is generally well respected by all libertarians, but offensive action is tolerated to stop further violence.
>>80850986
wrong
they destroyed feudalism - the most perfect society
>>80850648
The whole criticism of capitalism centering around the fact that the capitalists "don't do anything" just misses the point. And it's rather funny because marxism fails right off the bat because it falls into this. In Capital, Marx begins his analysis in medias res, with all the firms and capital just magically in place, suspiciously skipping over the fact that if the capitalist didn't invest in the first place, there would be no firm or jobs for the workers at all, and that is simply an inexorable fact of economics.
>>80851079
Why do people still take Mises seriously after this?
The only real form of libertarianism is individualist or mutualist, "anarco-capitalism" and "objectivism" would just result in another iron boot stomping on your face
https://mises.org/library/men-against-state-expositers-individualist-anarchism-america-1827-1908
http://mutualist.org/
>>80850998
No. The most pro capitalist country in the world is Vietnam folloewed by Bangladesh,China and Ghana. The only developed countries that has over 80% favorability rate to capitalism are South Korea,Singapure and Hong konga
>>80851130
This is true.
The problem isn't that there are dildos with flashing lights being produced.
The problem is that there is a demand for dildos with flashing lights
This kind of moral degeneracy isn't due to capitalism. There weren't any flashing dildos during the Victorian era, arguably the most capitalist epoch in world history.
>>80851079
That quote is out of context
>>80851233
You've missed the point of that image entirely. They're saying there's no good reason for the Bourgeois to exist when the workers could just as easily do their job i.e. invest capital, purchase factories ect ect.
>>80850823
Altruism is generally in one's best interests. Especially towards kin.
>And then there is the dumb people who are too dumb to know what are their own interests.
Only the individual is capable of deciding what is best for them at any particular moment.
>And then there is the crazy folk...
Who are a tiny minority. The majority should not bow to the needs of the minority.
>ANd [sic] then there is the more ideological folk, who want to destroy the libertarian society from within
Then so be it; if they are the majority then the society should bend to their will. If they are a minority who exert power through the state then the society is not libertarian in the first place.
>And then there is the foreign menaces.
The same menaces that you are forced to share your candy with. Under threat of violence.
>>80850949
>You're casting a scenario with extremely low likelihood
No i'm not. Just look at nazism to experience a multitude of scenarios that didn't have too happen but happened nonetheless
>Why would someone actively resist taking care of a kid they don't want?
Why would someone part voluntarily of a kid they dont want? Some people are crappy parents, but they still are parents and don't want to part with their children
Also there are crazy people
>Ever heard of private security? Or being a good Samaritan?
Private security can violate the NAP at will without consequence? Being a good samaritan when you can get shoot? lel, keep living in fairy tale world.
>you're leftypol with a new name
I am
>THOSE 4 lines
not an argument
Question for you guys, specifically other libertarians:
I used to consider myself a libertarian and when people ask I still mostly do, but I have a few key points of disagreement and I was curious if this is another school of libertarian thought, or a different ideology entirely.
In essence, I agree with almost all libertarian values save a few. I am no fan of open borders and think strict immigration standards are important. I believe in a well funded military and am not opposed to imperialism or colonialism, not in the interest of foreign aid or nation building, but acquisition of resources and profit. I also believe in the occasional use of protectionist tax policy to balance markets and keep production/manufacturing in the home country while resisting trade deficits. I am reticent to use them, and again I emphasise occasional, but I am not opposed to them entirely. Thoughts?
>>80851433
no working class and no bourgeois class = perfection
>>80851128
The ones that Locke explained. Diplomacy,preservation of rights and defence
>>80851340
No its not, Austrian economics rejects empiricism for axiomatic pure theory
If you want empiricism you would look at the German Historical School
>>80851044
>muh serfdom
It's not a meme.
>>80851079
kek, saved
>>80851595
>you would look at the German Historical School
i.e. communism
>>80851082
Those questions are exactly why you're attacking anarcho-capitalists and not libertarians or minarchists. Because ancaps are the strawman, the easiest to attack. Answers to these questions vary between the groups I've brought up and only the ancap will leave the answer ambiguous enough to be attacked freely from all angles.
I personally am a minarchist - to me, a sound constitution and judgement coming from a well-restricted and government controlled by the people would determine where NAP starts and ends. To me hitting your kid would indeed break NAP and provoke a punishment.
>>80851259
Ancap is not true anarchism. Rothbard said this,and so did all his disciples.
>>80850949
>Why would someone actively resist taking care of a kid they don't want?
No rational person would. The problem is that these people aren't always the rational sort. I mean, look at all the really shitty parents who hate their kids and make them suffer, but when they try to leave, they try to keep them their. Those parents are either completely irrational or sadistic, but sadly they are people.
The rest of your points are good, but I just thought I would give my two cents that not everyone makes rational or good decisions or has good reasoning.
>>80851608
>implying freemen don't exst
>implying serfdom is not a contract
>implying they didn't voluntarily agree for it
it's a meme
>>80851273
Ah, yes, the ultimate anti-ancap argument.
If you entact anarcho capitalism you might end up with a government all over again! That's why ancapism is bad!
>>80850998
You can look at libertarians from their moral framework and their level of state support (and possibly their economic methodology).
Deontologist libertarians support the NAP, claiming that all instances of aggression are immoral (except against aggression), thus leading to a libertarian political ideology of some sort.
Consequentialist libertarians support limited government because they think it will lead to good consequences, such as prosperity, happiness, peace, etc.
And then on the state support side you have a spectrum going from limited state (classical liberalism), very limited state (minarchism), and finally no state (anarcho-capitalism).
>>80851513
You sir are a Nationalist Libertarian, welcome to the club
>>80851124
>expecting the system to work on top of charity
>actually and unironically expecting charity to replace the welfare state
Holyfuck, you guys are sheltered
>>80851158
>The NAP is generally well respected by all libertarians, but offensive action is tolerated to stop further violence.
And where is the line drawn? Is there a nationalized police forec?
I will make it easy for you. Our governments have ministries(secretaries for americans, iirc), right? Tell me what ministries would stay in govenment control and what would be privatised
>>80851595
>Austrian economics rejects empiricism
This is false. Maths in Mises time were pretty underdeveloped for any economic modeling,so he went with praxeology as it was,and is,impossible to empirically determine how the economy will develop.
>>80851494
>No i'm not. Just look at nazism to experience a multitude of scenarios that didn't have too happen but happened nonetheless
It took a hundred posts but Poe's law strikes again.
>Some people are crappy parents, but they still are parents and don't want to part with their children
Well either they love their child or they don't. How likely is it that a parent that 'doesn't want to part with their child' would starve it to death despite obvious offers of assistance? Again, you're creating an extremely unlikely scenario, that isn't even internally consistent, and claiming it to be a general condition worthy of state intervention. Need I remind you that the most horrific child abuses, up to and including murder, take place in countries with the most state influence over the lives of the citizens.
>>80851513
Agree completely. This needs to be given a name, as the Democrats hijacked libertarianism with cuck johnson. Libertarians that believe in strong borders and a capable military. We need a name worth having, I think a lot of people already hold these beliefs
>>80851233
Don't know if you're shiting me or not but the last chapter of volume 1 of Capital deals with what Marxs calls "primitive accumulation" and the transition from feudalism to capitalism... Marx open analysing the value-form and commodity-form because it is what's most self evident about capitalism (but the self evident parts get modified in volume 3). "Investing" and macro stuff like that is dealt with in volume 2.
>>80851595
They reject positivism, not empricism. The quote is most definitely out of context, by the way.
Mises is stating that anecdotes are not to carry the same weight as macro trends, and that positivist methods of scientifically testing hypothoses in a lab are invalid.
Mises himself, as well as his contemporary Rothbard, both used an overwhelming amount of historical data to back their theories, in line with empirical study.
They reject economic positivism, not empiricism.
>>80851433
And you think workers have the time and education to be investors and workers? The division of labor is the keystone of civilization.
>>80851943
You mean like classical liberal? Because that is basically what you are at that point.
>>80851869
Charity is mandatory on the mormon faith. You just need the right education to make it work. The mormons are a great example of how stateless society could work
>>80851513
Like the other anon said, you are a nationalist libertarian. Pretty much the masterrace among libertarians, since open borders, at the current point in time, are a meme policy. They were only ever meant to be entacted once all the worlds societies would mean well to eachother - which is, to a huge extent, a utopian idea.
>>80851869
>the welfare state maymay
>>80851623
>the NAP maymay
>>80851595
>the positivism maymay
keep going this is turning ino a /pol/humor thread
>>80851841
The word "Nationalist" is going to turn a lot of people away right off the bat. While Nationalist is linguistically accurate, I still think we can come up with a better title than Nationalist Libertarians. It needs to be a single word.
>>80851513
>I am no fan of open borders and think strict immigration standards are important.
In our current situation I agree. However, without things like the welfare state and public sector monopolies there would be little incentive for economic migrants to migrate in the quantities they do now.
>not in the interest of foreign aid or nation building, but acquisition of resources and profit
Why not both? historically democracy, and through it liberty, has mostly been transferred through export.
>>80852062
>the border maymay
my sides
best one this far
>>80851273
saved
>>80851290
source?
>>80851476
>>80851476
>Altruism is generally in one's best interests. Especially towards kin.
For well balenced, moderate intlelligent people, yes. But our society isn't composed only by those people.
>Only the individual is capable of deciding what is best for them at any particular moment.
And what if he finds best to starve his children?
>Who are a tiny minority.
According to you. But a tiny minority can cause much pain (muslim radicals, for example.)
How would ancpas deal with foreign threats?
> If they are a minority who exert power through the state then the society is not libertarian in the first place.
A minority can easily enforce their wants. Only 3% fought for USA independence.
>The same menaces that you are forced to share your candy with. Under threat of violence.
How would you dela with them?
>>80851841
See now I like that term, and I've used it a couple times, but I feel like it doesn't work, it just sounds dirty when we say it. Can you be a libertarian and a nationalist? I would think so, but I would imagine many of the learned libertarian intellectuals like Mises, Hayek, Rothbard etc would have a fit if they heard the term.
>>80852012
Sure, but as already pointed out multiple times in this thread alone, the word liberal has also been hijacked by the left. We need something new.
>>80851880
>This is false. Maths in Mises time were pretty underdeveloped for any economic modeling,so he went with praxeology as it was,and is,impossible to empirically determine how the economy will develop.
I think you're missing the whole point of Austrianism bro. Math is totally rejected as a legitimate methodological approach by the Austrians because quantitative analysis can't capture what they see as the concert economic issues. Mises attacked the neoclassical mathematical approach because they would be used to plan an economy.
analysis of capitalism requires qualitive analysis to understand the dynamics of the business cycle... there's actually a lot of similarities between Marx and the Austrians here they would never admit.
I like Anarcho- Capitalism a lot more than stormfaggotry but I have a few questions.
1. Whats stopping Muslims, Neo Nazis, Communists and other collectivists from buying up private militaries and using them to establish states?
2. Lets say somebody buys a circle of land around your neighborhood just so he can charge high tolls to people every day, how would you deal with this?
>>80851968
My word that picture is a strawman
>>80852070
>happy with his post, Matej congratulated himself on his use clever wit in defeating those problematic assholes who dared disagree with him. "Say that everyone laughs at them - that'll teach them!" he thought. However, little did he know that his post indeed made people laugh - not at his opponents - but at Matej himself.
>>80851494
>>you're leftypol with a new name
>I am
You're a brick wall, a waste of time. You don't know the most basic info, and I won't sit here and spell it out for you.
Read a book or two, get some info from something other than a meme. Then maybe you'll be worth talking to.
>>80852022
>mormonism
>stateless
>>80852309
they get executed for supporting statism by the land owners maybe?
>>80851565
And how would the state pay for them?
>>80851623
So what do you want?
>>80851949
Try giving empirical evidence to an austrian to disprove their business cycle theories and see what happens. They embrace empiricism to the degree it benefits them and reject it when it doesn't and start shout about MUH AXIOMS
>>80852244
Was wrong about few things,but still the most pro-capitalismcountries in the world dont have welfare state like Vietnam
>>80852169
I am mostly non interventionist, I just pragmatically see that a well funded military that engages in occasional imperialism does a great job for the host country in enriching it with resources like metals and foods while giving the nation a national objective so to speak, that helps temper a culture of patriotism, which I think is important in a libertarian society where it may not be valued as much.
When you stay for the long term and engage in nation building I would think the net costs would become a negative, making the whole excursion a recipe for debt and foreign complacency.
>>80851791
define limited state
I will make it easy for you. Our governments have ministries(secretaries for americans, iirc), right? Tell me what ministries would stay in govenment control and what would be privatised
>>80852509
Free markets are universally more successful than restricted ones, isn't that all the evidence Libertarian economics needs?
>>80851945
To go further, the real criticism of Capital is how it begs the question of where capital even comes from, devolving into an infinite regress of "past labor".
>>80852309
>Whats stopping Muslims, Neo Nazis, Communists and other collectivists from buying up private militaries and using them to establish states?
Physical removal of degenerates democrats and statists
> 2. Lets say somebody buys a circle of land around your neighborhood just so he can charge high tolls to people every day, how would you deal with this?
Property laws. If someone violates the peinciple of life or liberty,people should physically remove them
>>80852663
>EVIDENCE
Actually provide a source mate
>>80851885
>It took a hundred posts but Poe's law strikes again.
>I will dismiss someone just because he said Nazism
>How likely is it that a parent that 'doesn't want to part with their child'
Like almost all of them? Drug addicts parents? Mental parents. I mean, it happens nowadays that crappy parents don't want to part with their children, but in a lolbertarian society suddenly everyone would be rational? This is some deluded wishfull thinking
>>80852351
The mormon church is not a state. It is a corporation.
>>80851513
Trying to think of terms for that ideology and I kind of like something akin to the Iron sandbox, or something similar. It's all free market and individualism and play on the inside, but on the outside, the walls are strong and the military keeps the whole box sturdy, something along those lines.
>>80850693
>all the bad people will move out
more realistically they'll just be "physically removed", so to speak. Although I'm not a super-libertarian, I'm more of a propertarian/formalist/NRx type. The NAP is retarded.
>>80852245
Patriot?
>>80852448
Taxes,donations, tariffs or lotteries.
>>80852808
http://www.heritage.org/index/ranking
>>80852022
>Charity is mandatory
Welfare state bro.
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAH
Holy fuck, you are stupid. Defending "voluntary charity" with a system equal to welfare.
>The mormons are a great example of how stateless society could work
AJHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
>>80852509
It depends what you define as empirical. Many mainstream economists regard econometrics and lab-tested projections to be empirical, and base their theories on such.
Of course these will be rejected. Not only do are they almost always wrong or manipulated to meet an end, but the basis of praxeology is that these methods are invalid and cannot predict reality.
In debates surrounding the Great Depression and the 2008 crash, the Austrian argument is almost entirely data driven.
>>80852448
I want the government to shrink in size. I want it to abolish all taxes besides the property tax, abolish prisons in favour of outlawing for a period of time - either to a savage nation or a "prison state" the size of Arizona with no laws enforced within, and also to enforce as few laws as possible.
Basically I want for the state to enforce the NAP, enforce the formal contracts created between two willing individuals and keep up a defensive military with secure borders - nothing else. If some place wants more laws entacted, that would be allowed but only and only on a local scale. (Want welfare? Go to Chicago, they entacted it two weeks ago, along with a local sales tax. All the investors are moving out and the scum is moving in.)
>>80852244
>For well balenced, moderate intlelligent people, yes. But our society isn't composed only by those people.
The vast majority remain that way, despite decades of state-funded idiot creation.
>And what if he finds best to starve his children?
Then he has committed an act that the majority would consider disgusting; violated the NAP through harming another human under his protection and would be subject to justice.
>a tiny minority can cause much pain (muslim radicals, for example.)
Muslim radicals are the majority.
>How would ancpas deal with foreign threats?
I don't know. Maybe try asking in the ancap thread.
>Only 3% fought for USA independence.
I'm going to need a source on this. It may be accurate that only 3% literally /fought/ for American independence but without majority support the war would not have started, let alone won by the States.
>How would you dela with them?
How do you mean? I would not intervene in their affairs unless attacked. If attacked, I would commit significant effort to destroying the threat.
>>80852579
It depends on who you ask. All I mean by limited state is a state that is small in comparison to states advocated by other ideologies. Nearly all libertarians want to severely reduce regulatory agencies and privatize education, some want to privatize public utilities, and they all want to get rid of other fluff like health, labor, etc.
>>80852333
To be fair pretty much every image in this thread is a strawman.
>>80852344
>i WILL JUST CALL HIM NAMES, hahahahahahha, that will show him
>>80852663
source?
>>80852766
>Physical removal of degenerates democrats and statists
NAP
>If someone violates the peinciple of life or liberty
WHere does it starts and ends? If someone fucks my wife i can "physically remove him" ?
>>80852916
>a fucking poll
lol
>>80852906
>http://www.heritage.org/index/ranking
For a start not one of those countries actually uses a true libertarian model of economics every one of them has a state which would be considered faaar to large for your average libertarian let alone ancap.
On top of that all the countries at the bottom of the list also use capitalist models.
So wheres the evidence?
>>80853130
>source?
Venezuela, USSR, the entire Eastern Bloc compared with the entire first world, Chile, Argentina, Australia.
>>80853185
It shows that yes, free market does indeed have popular support.
>>80852968
No. There is no force to do it. They do it for faith.
> Holy fuck, you are stupid. Defending "voluntary charity" with a system equal to welfare.
Has nothing to do with it. None mormons can use their welfare and again,there is no cohesion to this chariety system
>AJHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH
Not an argument
>>80853287
>Venezuela, USSR, the entire Eastern Bloc
All of which used capitalist systems
>Chile, Argentina, Australia
All of which have states far larger than libertarians would like.
>>80853130
http://www.heritage.org/index/ranking
>>80853130
You seem upset, but that wasn't my intention.
You've proven yourself to be maddeningly ignorant, yet stubborn in maintaining your position.
No matter how much evidence is presented, you never consider the other side. You're arguing against something you don't know the first thing about, and you use the same tired fallacies over and over again.
I didn't mean to offend you, but trying to have an intelligent conversation with you is simply impossible.
>>80853185
It is popular support. I dont know what did you expected. The Free market is more popular on poor and underdeveloped countries.
>>80853130
>NAP
You should take one you seem nervous.
> WHere does it starts and ends? If someone fucks my wife i can "physically remove him" ?
How does adultery break the principles of life and liberty?
>>80853441
You're dumb enough that I must respond to you with memes.
>>80853038
>The vast majority remain that way
source? The vast majority vote democrat and republican ffs
>Then he has committed an act that the majority would consider disgusting;
So? Whoring is disgusting, and yest it's still done
> violated the NAP through harming another human under his protection
So if i hit my kid for bad behaviour i am breaking the NAP?
>Muslim radicals are the majority.
Nope. MAjority vocally supports them. But those who actually do it....
>I don't know. Maybe try asking in the ancap thread.
and lolbertarians?
>>80853085
>All I mean by limited state is a state that is small in comparison to states advocated by other ideologies.
So yolu don't know what you want? You will just keep spouting the same old line "SMALLER STATE!!!!11!!!" without actually knowing what parts of the sate you want to be cut.
>Nearly all libertarians want to severely reduce regulatory agencies and privatize education
And then you ask why we think this "ideology" is only made to please corporations
>>80853252
>On top of that all the countries at the bottom of the list also use capitalist models.
So now capitalism means economic unfreedom?
Come on man. That much cognitive dissonance must be painful.
>>80853441
Are you trying to out retard Canada or something?
The point is less regulated means better economy as a strong general rule, not that any of those countries are Libertarian.
>>80853441
>Central planning and corporatism are capitalism
Wew lad.
>>80842862
Go away hippies.
>>80853287
>>80853287
>Venezuela, USSR, the entire Eastern Bloc
Capitalist systems, maybe excpet the USSR.
>Chile
pic related. It only becamse 1rst world after 20 years of moderate rule
>Argentina, Australia.
>free market
Are you stupid?
>>80853584
Oh here we go believe it or not there are actually different forms of socialism for a start you don't have to believe in a state to be a socialist.
Not only that but Venezuela it's self has corporations do you seriously think it socialist ?
>>80853614
>source?
The fact that you haven't been murdered. Societies composed of unhinged lunatics don't last long.
>Whoring is disgusting
The voluntary exchange of money for services is disgusting to you? What a good communist you would make.
>So if i hit my kid for bad behaviour i am breaking the NAP?
Depends on the level of harm. Though I think you could figure this out for yourself.
>Nope. MAjority vocally supports them. But those who actually do it....
Support is action. Majority, or vocal minority, support for Sharia law is how sharia law gets implemented.
>>80853815
>>80853898
So apparently you believe that Venezuela and USSR- era Eastern Bloc are more free market than Australia, USA or Norway?
>>80853815
>True Communism™ has never been tried
So you are a communist after all.
>>80853815
>pic related. It only becamse 1rst world after 20 years of moderate rule
You are ignoring that Allende destroyed 40% of the Chilean GDP in 3 years with 600% inflation in 3 years. Pinochet took a country that was totally destroyed economically with a debt middle class. The economic measures that remain the same,were effective both under Pinochet and the democratic goverment
>>80854143
>Norway
is super socialist
>>80853658
Except the argument is false in every sense of the word China the fastest growing economy has the state interfering in it's economics constantly.
Even old Regan upped taxes and Thatchers couldnt even reduce inflation infact it went UP Her entire economy was based off of the North sea oil reserves.
>>80853614
>So yolu don't know what you want? You will just keep spouting the same old line "SMALLER STATE!!!!11!!!" without actually knowing what parts of the sate you want to be cut.
I'm speaking for libertarianism as an ideological space since that's what your whole enquiry is about. I have my own positions, but that doesn't mean they are perfectly congruent with the libertarian next to me. And I listed what libertarians in general want cut.
>And then you ask why we think this "ideology" is only made to please corporations
It's certainly not meant to please corporations. As Milton Friedman said, big business is often an enemy of capitalism because they go to the government for special treatment, bailouts, regulations, etc., all this, besides its obvious bad effects, reducing competition. Big corps. fear the free market.
>>80854143
>Norway
You just shot yourself in the foot there you daft classcuck. They have some of the highest living standards in the world and are social democrats.
>>80854257
We're not talking about socialist policies we're talking about economic regulation. It is possible to implement a welfare state without state seizure of labour and capital.
>>80854257
>is super socialist
No it is not. The means of production are privatly owned
>>80854258
>China the fastest growing economy
They're building up from an insanely low point
>Regan
>Thatcher
Yes a lot of conservatives support big government, whats your point?
>>80854191
It has actually please refer to revolutionary catalonia
>>80854257
>the nordic countries are socialist meme
They have high taxes and massive social security.
It is also extremely easy to establish an independent business there - just harder to maintain and profit off of it since there are such high taxes.
That's not socialism.
>>80853815
You've gone full blown retard here.
Australia is one of the most free market countries on the planet, only after Hong Kong, Singapore, Switzerland and New Zealand.
Also, if Pinochet really ruined Chile due to free market economics and 'moderates' now in power, then how is it still the most free market and prosperous South American nation?
He is wrong about Argentina though.
>>80854258
China is the biggest bubble of the 20th century.
You should look around you to see the long-term effects of government intervention.
>>80851513
Open borders have nothing to do with libertarianism.
>>80854574
>revolutionary catalonia
Kek. It was not.Revolutionary Catalonia was just anarchists and Trotskist fighting republicans and Stalinists. Catalonia wss just a bunch of militias and land owners killing each other during the conflict
>>80854097
>The fact that you haven't been murdered. Societies composed of unhinged lunatics don't last long.
This is a argument for status quo, not libertarianism
>The voluntary exchange of money for services is disgusting to you?
lol, nice strawman. I just said that whoring is disgusting to society, yet it's still praticed. But keep on misreading on purpose and moving goalpost so you can strawman me
>Depends on the level of harm.
And who will judge it?
>Support is action
No it's not. I support killing all niggers, but i won't do it.
>>80854191
It's objectively true. Only /pol/ tards and uneducated retards think otherwise. For starters
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communism
>>80854220
>You are ignoring that Allende destroyed 40% of the Chilean GDP in 3 years with 600% inflation in 3 years.
>Pinochet didn't do any major good for Chile
>BU-BUT ALLENDE!!!!!!!!
I don't care for allende. Defend Pinochet without attacking others
>>80854257
Norway is capitalist, you retard
This general is like the opposite of /trumpgen/.
There is actual debate and the people posting all the retarded image macros are not even supporters.
>>80854566
Yes they freed up the market yet the middle class in america along with the working class has barely had it's wages risen since the 80s.
Capitalism cannot work without some form of sate.
>>80854695
Well, with that point made by Rothbard, it doesn't have anything to do with closed borders either.
Nationalists will still be upset because you can let as many foreigners on to your property as you like.
>>80854593
Argentina is still undeniably better off than, say, Venezuela or Bolivia.
>>80854817
>Defend Pinochet without attacking others
He inherited a shit economy. Kf that is not important I dont know what it is.
>>80850860
Cool opinion bro, but slapping two words together doesn't create an ideology.
>>80854593
What is the indicators that define a free market?
> then how is it still the most free market and prosperous South American nation?
Only after Pinochet stepted out. He left the country with 45% of population below poverty line.
>>80854695
>>80854954
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C52TlPCVDio
I think Friedman has an interesting view on immigration.
I love how quiet the enemies of classical liberalism become when confronted with an argument they are unable to counter. It's almost as if they pretended it didn't exist.
>>80854695
My issue with that statement is, say you own private land that happens to fall on the border, and you have a whole family of immigrants trot up it from another country. What is to be done if the landowner is:
>A bleedingheart liberal that lets them in, feeds them, clothes them, gives further incentive for immigrants to come to him for help
>Uses them for labor on his farm/factory and pays them, giving incentive for more immigrants to come
We can't trust the individual in that instance because he could not be averse to immigrants.
>>80854888
>Yes they freed up the market yet the middle class in america along with the working class has barely had it's wages risen since the 80s.
>Capitalism cannot work without some form of sate.
This is due cheap credit thanks to central banking.Before Nixon getting loans was very expensive,after him everyone could take loans,so wages stagnated as a result of cheap credit.Central banking and fractionary reserve is the source of stagnant wages,as the main driven force of people's consume is due credit and not savings
>>80855004
Latin Americas capita income grew by 3.1 percent in the 1960s and 70s yet grew by only 1.1 percent during the 1980s.
Capitalism was shoved down the thorats of South American countries and what have they got to show for it NOTHING. Well apart from a violent coup.
>>80855027
He was 16 years in charge.
Also he inherited a shit economy also thanks too american intervention
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_intervention_in_Chile#1970_election
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salvador_Allende#US_involvement
>>80855275
Except leftypol, he likes to dig his hole deeper for some reason
>>80855004
I'd have to agree, yes. But even in South American terms Argentina is not free market.
>>80854817
>This is a argument for status quo, not libertarianism
No, the argument is that the status quo is consistent with libertarian ideals. The (vast) majority are rational, sane and sensible enough to not require pernicious government intervention. Any blanket intervention restricts the liberty of the majority to protect a minority who may not even wish to be protected.
If an insane individual is capable of surviving, and not harming others in the process, without state assistance then he should be allowed to do so. To do otherwise belittles his dignity. State assistance for those who cannot, and have no-one else to turn to, is not inconsistent with libertarian ethics.
>I just said that whoring is disgusting to society
Except it isn't. In states and countries where prostitution is regulated there are not riots in the street and the rule of law has not collapsed. If anything the unilateral illegality of prostitution, wherein the government criminalizes the sex worker, is more disgusting since it drives said workers underground, beyond the assistance of the state or the collective, and creates criminal enterprise.
>And who will judge it?
The people, through the government. Child abuse laws, once again, are not incompatible with a libertarian society.
>>80855730
An unfortunate example, true.
>>80855591
When all your economy is wiped out,it is normal to have ashit economy for a couple of years.You seem to forget who inherited Pinochet's goverment and what economic measures they implemented
>>80855703
>rhetoric is arguments
Let me sum up your "arguments"
>"PEOPLE WON'T GO AGAISNT THEIR INTERESTS"
>"CHARITY WILL INCREASE TENFOLD IN A ANCAP/LOLBERTARIAN SOCIETY!!!"
>"LOOK AT THIS (((((((((((FREE MARKET)))))))))))) COUNTRY!! HE IS DOING GREAT!!!!!!"
>"I WANT A SMALLER STATE!!!!!!"
>>80855541
Latin american economies failed,due the lack of demand of commodities.You seem to be very ill informed.
>>80856036
Compelling.
>>80855541
Where is the evidence that Latin America became more capitalist in the 1980s?
Even so, why are the most free market economies in Latin America today the most successful?
>>80854701
Socially democratic I didn't say state socialist
>>80856036
I am unsure whether to laugh at you or be disgusted. Pathetic. Please stay out of civilized discussion if this is the level you are going to show.
>>80856084
First you equate socialism with a system in which uses corporations and has a state.
I reject both
>>80855808
>The (vast) majority are rational, sane and sensible enough to not require pernicious government intervention.
source?
>Any blanket intervention restricts the liberty of the majority to protect a minority who may not even wish to be protected.
rhetoric
>If an insane individual is capable of surviving, and not harming others in the process, without state assistance then he should be allowed to do so
He can, just not within our society. To afford the perks of living amoung us, he must obey certain rules and provide some work.
>To do otherwise belittles his dignity.
rhetoric
>State assistance for those who cannot, and have no-one else to turn to, is not inconsistent with libertarian ethics.
rhetoric. How do you want to limit welfare?
>Except it isn't.
It objectivily is. Do you want your sister to whore herself? I'm not saying it's disgusting and whores shouldn't be allowed to whore themsleves. I am a supporter of legalizing prostitution. But prostitution is frowned upon our society.
>If anything the unilateral illegality of prostitution, wherein the government criminalizes the sex worker, is more disgusting since it drives said workers underground, beyond the assistance of the state or the collective, and creates criminal enterprise.
Strawmen, i never said i support criminalized prostitution
>The people, through the government.
So a state police forece like we have now?
>>80856248
I was talking about countries with free-er markets being better off than those with more restricted ones. And Norway's economy & market is undoubtedly more free than that of communist-time Poland or Venezuela. So no, I did not shoot myself in the foot.
>>80856036
Damn, you got me. I recant all my arguments.
I seriousness, do yourself a favor, leftypol. Read a few books, maybe an article or two, pretty much anything but memes. Educate yourself a bit.
With some luck, maybe you'll be suited for intelligent discussion by the time you graduate high school.
>>80855966
>I will ignore the intervention by the greatest economy, by far, in the epoch
>>80856387
not an argument. But i also never expect arguments from lolbertarians. Reaction pictures are enough amirite guise?
>>80856481
>expecting /pol/tards to have the minimal clue of what socialism his
>>80856205
The IMFthe World Bank and World Trade organisation all implimented neoliberal economic polices within South America yet the growth was less that it had been before. While the UK and US for example implemented largely protectivist polices and their economic development went up.
>>80856481
Misinterpretation. He does not equate socialism with "systems using corporations and state". He shows the impact of increasingly more socialist elements within these systems on the countries which adapted said elements.
>>80856611
not an argument
>n by the time you graduate high school.
>a lolbertarian calling me underage
You can't make this shit up
>>80856593
> free-er markets
define
>>80856825
Then why does his picture say "Socialism works" lel
>>80856690
First you reject the arguments provided with little counterevidence or just outright ignore them. Then you expect us to keep providing arguments, while yourself feeling victorious and acting below the standard of discussion. Well done.
>>80856825
>He shows the impact of increasingly more socialist elements
But it worked out just fine in scandinavia.
Maybe, but just maybe, economic systems are not that straightforward. Maybe, but just maybe, the people who implement the systems are more important then the system himslef
>>80856593
Capitalists don't care about how "free" a market is all they care about is profit that's why they often support states as a means to their own ends.
>>80856998
> while yourself feeling victorious
>>80849112
There is no victory in 4chan arguing you new fag. That is up to non interveniants of the discussion to decide. Of course lolbertarians will say that i lost. Of course non-lolbertarians will say that you guys lost.
Are you guys new?
>>80857011
>But it worked out just fine in scandinavia.
kek
>>80856481
Socialism cant work wothout a state,a d your meme ideology is meant to collapse in any industrial or post industrial society,
>>80856931
>everything is literal
Imagine a world where countries are not either socialist or capitalist, but can have elements from both of these systems. Now re-read my previous post.
>>80856840
According to you a market is either free or not. Apparently, also according to you, Australia is an example of a non-free market while Venezuela is an example of a free market.
Free-er means less restrictions, necessary governmental permissions, licences, easier ability to establish a business and less state bureaucracy around maintaining one.
>>80857133
>Post confusing corporatism with free marker capitalism number 99999999999999999999999
>>80856489
>source?
Again, the fact that you have not been murdered. Unfortunately I don't have any examples of societies composed entirely of the criminally insane.
>rhetoric
Indeed, this is how you make an argument.
>To afford the perks of living amoung us, he must obey certain rules and provide some work.
What part of 'is capable of surviving, and not harming others in the process' don't you understand? My claim, from a libertarian perspective, is that the laws he must follow are limited to 'don't harm others' as opposed to 'don't harm yourself'. Survival necessitates the provision of labour.
>How do you want to limit welfare?
That's not part of the argument. I'll humour you though, a lot.
>Do you want your sister to whore herself?
I don't care. The decisions she makes pertaining to her own body are none of my concern. I would council against it in our current system since, as you rightly say, society frowns upon it. However I would argue that society has been conditioned by moralists and statists to do so. Societies with legalized prostitution, such as The Netherlands, do not take such a grim position on the work as those who lack it.
>So a state police forece like we have now?
Yes. Please remember that the existence of a state is not contrary to libertarian ideals.
>>80842862
BERNIE SANDERS SOLD OUT! Old Bernie Proves to the World that everybody's got a price! Proof right here. Vote TRUMP 2016!
https://www.youtube.com
>>80857293
Your mixing up economic policy and immigation policy.
Capitalism actually relies on mass immigration since it needs the endless pools of 3rd world labour to work in it's factories for less than the home grown nation would work for.
>>80844669
do you consider the founding fathers to be liberarian?
>>80857390
>It says "Socialism works" b,b,but it dosent mean it literally
Then why write it?
>>80857011
Please, read the following post:
>>80854575
>>80857133
Now, those are crony capitalists, who themselves have little to do with capitalism. If I called Stalin a communist actual commies would jump at me and say that he did everything for himself and little for the ideology and he just used the name. But you calling globalists and financial oligarchs such as Soros or Rothschilds "capitalists" is perfectly fine.
>>80857238
Imagine, that while discussing, you do not only serve for those who read you but you are also given the opportunity to learn yourself. That is why an argument may or may not have a "victor" of sorts. If both sides agree to disagree it is completed without such a thing. If however one side agrees that the other provides more compelling arguments, that something was learned, it is a natural thing to say that someone was better prepared to debate, "won" it in a way. Ultimately, the goal is to learn ourselves and allow others to do the same. You seem to consciously forget about the first part, but subconciously always assume that nobody is smarter or better than you youself.
>>80857758
Then next time tell someone to name a picture like this "implementing more socialist elements within capitalist systems has a massively positive impact on economies (sarcasm)" and expect average poster to understand that.
>>80858041
>"Crony Capitalism"
This exists because the components of free capitalism lead to crony capitalism. The class of private owners earn from crony capitalism so they have no need to change it.
>>80858643
Like Stalin wanted nothing to do with communism but enjoyed the power it allowed him, so do crony capitalists want nothing to do with capitalism but enjoy the power it initially gave them.
They earn from immoral and unlawful practices. They are, effectively, criminals too rich to be stopped by the police - and just as all such individuals who are too powerful for conventional methods but need be stoped - the people must take note and action. In case of a tyrrant a revolution is called for. These people are slowly turning into such tyrrants and they should be stopped before a revolution is needed.
In all systems there will be people willing to abuse the system to attain power. The mere existance of such people in capitalist system is no reason to abolish it - after all you do not say that we should abolish the criminal system entirely just because mafia profits from this system.
>>80857384
>your meme ideology
>is a lolbertarian
You can't make this shit up
>>80857390
>According to you a market is either free or not.
It can be FREER, but it's not a free. I just want to know the indicators used o determine if a economy is free market or not.
>Australia is an example of a non-free market while Venezuela is an example of a free market.
lol, nice strawmen. Quote me where i said this shit.
>Australia is an example of a non-free market
Objectively true
>Free-er means less restrictions, necessary governmental permissions, licences, easier ability to establish a business and less state bureaucracy around maintaining one.
And those charts are made based on this indicators?
>>80857392
>le corporatism is not capitalism meme!!!!!!
>Free market as never been tried!!!!!!
Exactly the same as communists
>>80857419
>Again, the fact that you have not been murdered. Unfortunately I don't have any examples of societies composed entirely of the criminally insane.
Nice evade. I want a source for
>The (vast) majority are rational, sane and sensible enough to not require pernicious government intervention.
>Indeed, this is how you make an argument.
No, this is how you evade a argument
>What part of 'is capable of surviving, and not harming others in the process' don't you understand?
Then again, he is free to do so. it's called hobos
> is that the laws he must follow are limited to 'don't harm others'
And most of our laws are based on this principle.
>That's not part of the argument. I'll humour you though, a lot.
You claimed welfare could exist in a libertarian society. I asked you how much of it.
>I don't care.
Ok, i see you are a kid, or probably don't have a sister
>Yes. Please remember that the existence of a state is not contrary to libertarian ideals.
So what the fuck do you guys want?
>>80859458
Classical liberalism wss the ideology of the XIX US and it worked wonders during the Gilden age. Anarcosocialism is just a meme
>>80859364
We can do much to change a corrupt justice system reform it for example. So why not instead provide an alternative to capitalism if we know from current and previous example that capitalism always finds it's back at it's "crony" variant.
>>80858041
>Please, read the following post:
I know, you are saying anything new to me.
>crony capitalists
>LE CRONY CAPITALISTS ARE NOT REAL FREE MARKET
>FREE MARKET AS NEVER BEEN TRIED BEFORE
>MY SPECIAL, UNTRIED, PERFECT BRAND OF FREE MARKET CAPITALISM WILL SURELY WORK THIS TIME!!!!!
>>80859364
>Like Stalin wanted nothing to do with communism but enjoyed the power it allowed him
>communism
>stalin
ok buddy
>They earn from immoral and unlawful practices. They are, effectively, criminals too rich to be stopped by the police - and just as all such individuals who are too powerful for conventional methods but need be stoped - the people must take note and action. In case of a tyrrant a revolution is called for. These people are slowly turning into such tyrrants and they should be stopped before a revolution is needed.
>capitalism is creating men too powerfull to be taken down by capitalism
>I know, let's change our system to a even more radical for of capitalism!!! I am a genious!!!!!
>>80857538
>Capitalism actually relies on mass immigration since it needs the endless pools of 3rd world labour to work in it's factories for less than the home grown nation would work for.
Soc-Dems support mass immigration, because it an attempt to grow the tax base to fulfill their ever expanding welfare commitment. Nothing to do with capitalism in this regard.
>>80859364
>The mere existance of such people in capitalist system is no reason to abolish it
>the mere existance of some regulations that are harmfull is no reason to abolish regulations
>the mere existance of a few radicals doesn't mean Islam is bad.
See? this can work for pretty much everything
>>80859783
>Classical liberalism
I also was the ideology of France up until 1789
>>80859920
>Nothing to do with capitalism in this regard.
Nice handwashing.
>Soc-Dems support mass immigration
Literally almost every party supports mass immigration.
>>80847145
This is bullshit, the UK and Germany are easily in red, Hungary in blue and Estonia on the blue-purple border.
>>80859458
>And those charts are made based on this indicators?
The charts showing how free are different nation's markets? Indeed they are! Surprising, isn't it?
>>80859920
Never said I supported Soc-Dems
Even if that is so why do pro freemarket leaders all seem to implement free movement of people then it's because profit is all that matters to them. Capitalists love the huge pools of cheap labour that comes to them from the African and Middle Eastern nations
>>80860096
>It also was the ideology of France up until 1789
When Proto-socialists ran the economy of the fledgling Republic into the ground.
>>80860096
>I also was the ideology of France up until 1789
No it wasnt you ignorant fuck.
>>80860096
>>Classical liberalism
>I also was the ideology of France up until 1789
Pic related. Objectively wrong.
>See? this can work for pretty much everything
How many such people are there in the capitalist system? Well, maybe a handful.
How many of the regulations are actually harmful?
If you were to look at their effect in the long run, easily over 80% is. Of course you will disagree.
How many "radicals" are there in islam?
Looking at what an european would consider a radical, pretty much all practising muslims are radical.
See the difference?
>>80859458
>Nice evade. I want a source for 'The (vast) majority are rational, sane and sensible enough to not require pernicious government intervention.'
Fine. Here's the number of people my government, authoritarian as it is, has decided are unfit to live in society. Though I think the fact that 'most people are not criminally insane' should be self-evident.
http://www.hscic.gov.uk/catalogue/PUB15812/inp-det-m-h-a-1983-sup-com-eng-13-14-rep.pdf
>No, this is how you evade a argument
Sorry, wrong again.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trivium
>Then again, he is free to do so. it's called hobos
Indeed, glad we could agree on something.
>And most of our laws are based on this principle.
Except drug laws (though Portugal is better than most; it must sicken you to know that disgusting junkie degenerates are free to insert chemicals into their bodies right under your nose), laws criminalizing prostitution, laws condemning 'hate speech', laws criminalizing the peaceful ownership of firearms.
I agree on the whole though, we live in relatively liberal countries. Never forget that there are those who do not have this pleasure, though, and how quickly you may become one of their sorry lot should you be convinced to give up your essential liberties.
>Ok, i see you are a kid, or probably don't have a sister
You're right, I have three brothers and their decisions pertaining to their own bodies are theirs and theirs alone. As I said, I would council against them engaging in sex work but only because it's illegal.
>So what the fuck do you guys want?
Why not actually read some of the literature you claimed to have read in >>80849522. Perhaps then you would not be so predisposed to posting memes strawmanning libertarianism.
>>80855275
That's because socialism and many interventionisms can only survive on rhetoric.
>>80860307
Capitalism is not the same as free market. Can you guy stop strawmanning me for 1 post please?
Can you show me now where i said tthat Venezuela is a free market?
>>80860307
>Indeed they are!
Source?
>>80859458
>>Free market as never been tried!!!!!!
Wrong, it has and its worked.
>>80857596
The founding fathers are a group of over 40 individuals with completely contrasting and mutually exclusive viewpoints.
Hamilton vs Jefferson is the most well known example.
>>80844669
It is a thing; Enoch Powell wrote an essay on it that I found convincing ish from a pragamatic point of view
>>80860742
Well then, the discussion started by saying that the free-er the market the more successful it is. I showed examples which prove this rule, and you are the one who brought up capitalism for no good reason and now dig the hole deeper.
>source?
http://www.heritage.org/index/book/methodology
>>80850648
>muh workers
The average worker has no managerial abilities.
It takes much more skill to run and expand a company effectively than to flip a couple of burgers.
When will you stupid communists understand this ?
>>80851251
>>80851079
You've never taken a theory of knowledge class/read a book on the subject, have you.
>>80861384
Of course they haven't. They are memers, they are not actually interested in educating themselves. Their entire political worldview is based off talking points, some rhetoric and what their gut instinct tells them.
>>80852663
>Free markets are universally more successful than restricted ones, isn't that all the evidence Libertarian economics needs?
Well that's also the central thesis of Marx in Das Capital, if you ever bother to actually read, who was a pro-free trader. It's just that capitalist development is filled with contradictions that begins to transform itself into something qualitatively different... share-capital transforms private property into collective ownership of the means of production which is the nucleus of socialism within capitalism. Capitalism in the end must negate private property because it's a restriction on its full development.
Also there's no such thing as "libertarian" economics, libertarianism is a political philosophy.
>300 replies
Well, looks like I was very successful and libertarianism triggers a lot of the edgy kids in /pol/.
I will consider opening other threads like this regularly.
>>80852245
>>80852150
Self-Determinationist
>>80861846
Do it, we need to break up the Stormfag circlejerk.
>>80860594
>When Proto-socialists ran the economy of the fledgling Republic into the ground.
wat?
Are you talking about the revolution? You know Marx only started to write in the 19th century?
So much retardation in this post
And nice evade. Don't bother defend, just attack "LE SOCIALISTS xD"
>>80861846
In the next one I would post these links:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarianism
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarcho-capitalism
>>80862026
Yeah, the fact that this board is plagued with LITERAL STORMFRONT SHILLS is not brought up often enough.
Time to do some cleaning.
>>80861846
Please do m80. The more we expose how retarded people like this portugese tripfag are the better.
>>80861384
No serious "theory of knowledge class" is going to take praxeology as a method seriously. Even Hayek abandoned it.
The variables the classical Austrians were concerned with like "entrepreneurship" cannot be mathematically modeled but approaching it with the praxeological method isn't going to give you any better results.
>>80860713
Awesome post, saved it.
>>80861832
>It's just that capitalist development is filled with contradictions that begins to transform itself into something qualitatively different... share-capital transforms private property into collective ownership of the means of production which is the nucleus of socialism within capitalism. Capitalism in the end must negate private property because it's a restriction on its full development.
>thingsthatneverhappened.jpg
>Also there's no such thing as "libertarian" economics, libertarianism is a political philosophy.
Now that's what I call nitpicking.
>>80861832
>Well that's also the central thesis of Marx in Das Capital, if you ever bother to actually read, who was a pro-free trader. It's just that capitalist development is filled with contradictions that begins to transform itself into something qualitatively different... share-capital transforms private property into collective ownership of the means of production which is the nucleus of socialism within capitalism. Capitalism in the end must negate private property because it's a restriction on its full development.
Then a large number of Marx's predictions didn't come to pass or were directly contradicted. Such as Russia, a poor peasant country leading the revolution instead of a industrialized society.
Most of the Communists have thrown out the majority of Marx's materialist framework of history, and with it they had to throw the baby out with the bath water.
> Also there's no such thing as "libertarian" economics, libertarianism is a political philosophy.
You're right. Economics is value free.
>>80862026
>>80861846
Idk, every other time that has been tried. the stormfags drowned out every single thread, rather then eventually leaving you to your own corner.
t. Former member of a Communism/Socialism general here.
Good luck, and keep BTFOing statists.
>>80862436
> No serious "theory of knowledge class" is going to take praxeology as a method seriously. Even Hayek abandoned it.
I like the scare quotes around theory of knowledge, as if Epistemology is not a real thing.
Praxeology is based on a priori knowledge, which is taken very seriously in Epistemology. I would encourage you to actually read that chapter where that quote was taken instead of just reading the conclusion of the arguments that preceded it.
>>80862712
>>thingsthatneverhappened.jpg
How much capital is actually privately owned today? Most capital is now owned collectively by corporations and managed by hired employees in the interests of their share-holders. Capitalism socializes the means of production simply in a non-democratic manner. Most people were independent farmers in the 19th century now most people are workers employed by capital.
http://www.equitism.org/Equitism/Theory/Theory.htm
http://www.panarchy.org/bazelon/property.html
NEW THREAD
>>80862867
>>80862867
>>80862987
There's much better work on epistemology than praxeology
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sociology_of_knowledge
![eu2012[1].png](https://i.imgur.com/FjmtMU5.png "eu2012[1]")
