Hopefully some true believers in christ are online and can clear my mind of the problems i have with christianity.
1)If jesus is also god you believe that humans killed and tortured god on earth
2)you believe you are made in the image of god, what does this mean? Like your nose, eyes, body or in our minds, like anger, wrath, envy, evil thoughts, weakness
3)Why should god just watch as we torture and kill his son? Why set him through all this torture and not just give him a heartinfact or something like that?
4)Why should it be neccessary that gods son is treated so misarble for us to be saved? Why not just save the people who live good lives and listen to god?
5)Why should god send good and rightouness living people to hell only they didnt belive that he had a son?
6)How did god get a son? Had he a wife? Created he just a human and declared him as his son?
7)Whats up with this trinity? !One! God, but he is actually a father, a son and a holy ghost?
Thanks for clearing this question, ignore the bad english
>>70869287
man_in_a_hat.png
t.nervous christian
>>70869287
and you shall not server idols, but churches are full with idols?
Why pray to maria, or other holy people when there is only one god who could hear you?
>>70869287
1. Jesus was an expression of God, he loved us so much that he brought the hate out of us.
2. The image of God represents the quest to constantly repeat a process until it is complete.
3. Because Jesus followed his heart, it was his choice.
4. Grace is for those who don't deserve it.
5.
>Why are you a Christian but don't believe in Christ lelel
6. There are many theories to this in many different religions but it is a mixture of spiritual measure.
7. One is of the mind, the body and sexual nature or spirit.
>>70869287
C.S. Lewis "Mere Christianity" has a lot of great answers on all this stuff.
>>70869927
>5
iam not a christian, iam just interested in why you believe in this ideologie
>>70869927
thanks for expressing your understanding of this stuff
>>70870262
I've studied multiple religions, I doubt main Christians would believe as I believe.
The bible is the easiest to tune yourself to though, it's all basically a huge guide of making the best decisions of life and living life to it's fullest while still keeping self respect.
>>70869287
1)Jesus had both human and divine natures, it was his human nature that was executed.
2) in part our ability to reason.
3)to show his justice and mercy and allow humanity to be saved. Humans could never fully pay off our transgressions against god and would thus be punished for eternity. By god choosing to be punished it both frees us from that condemnation while also not blowing all our sin off as though it never happened.
4)no one is good, everyone deserves damnation.
5)Because they are rejecting the only means of atoning for their sins.
6)the son is co-eternal with the father and is only called the son because of his role in the redemptive process.
7)too complex for a four chan post, but it involve one being taking multiple roles for a grander purpose.
>>70870542
i think i see it similiar, the goal of most relegions is to leed us to our selfs and make us clear which consequences our acts have to our world and ourself. And to show us a way to our creator.
Which religion made the most sense to you?
>>70870893
to point 3, wouldnt it be possible for god to just forgive without the torture and death of jesus?
He made the rules so he can also change them and just forgive.
2)What I gathered from orthodox priests: consciousness
>>70869287
1) Pretty much
2) This is never explained. Some of them take it literally, and some take it as an metaphor. Both are wrong, so it doesn't matter.
3/4) The whole vicarious redemption concept is nonsensical. Since it's just a fantasy story, they can make it mean whatever they want, no matter how much sense it doesn't make. They didn't think it all the way through.
5) Priests who made this declaration did to to force compliance, which is how all religions spread and stay alive.
6)He fucked his own mother and created a demigod, adding another addition to the pantheon.
7) As stated above, it's part of the Christian pantheon. Multiple gods, yet they like to claim that it's all just one god.
>>70871138
God made the eternal decrees in accordance with his own rational nature, they could not be changed. Also doing so would not demonstrate his justice or mercy, as it would make all transgressions trivial and would mean all his rules were arbitrary.
most people would be upset if a government just let off a murderer with no punishment because they decided to be merciful and change the rules. That would be unjust. However, if god punished everyone fully for their sins we would all be damned for eternity, which is not very merciful. So sacrificing himself in substitutionary atonement was the only way to be both just and merciful.
>>70870928
Taoism, Budhism, Christianity, Zen Budhism, Hinduism Maxims had great wisdom. Basically every religion at least puts a normal person on a potentially greater path than he was on before.
>>70869287
1. I don't believe that part fully, I don't understand all the logic, like there were much more painful treatments at the time, I personallywould sacrifice myself for any level of pain/eternal damnation to 'save' more than one deserving people,
2. I believe evolution shaped us, science and the real world is separate to faith and the spiritual world, although i believe we appear similar in shape and mind to God,
3. Can't understand faith with logic, there are multiple speculative answers but the suggestion of them as definitive conflicts with the statement that you cannot understand gods will,
4. Look at 3.
5. I believe religion is in the faith of your heart, you shall be judged by our works, all other suggestions of bowing to a religious organisation (false idols) in the Bible were put in by men intending to mislead people for their own gain,
6. Look at 3. Cannot understand gods will, he is just his son, no real world logic can describe faith
7. Catholic false idol power structure
Ask harsher questions, you have barely begun to scratch the surface
>>70869524
You my friend I like :)
>>70869287
>1)
John 10:11, 17-18 "“I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep. This is why the Father loves me, because I lay down my life in order to take it back again. No one is taking it from me; I lay it down of my own free will. I have the authority to lay it down, and I have the authority to take it back again. This is a command that I have received from my Father.”
>2)
Unlike animals, humans have immortal soul that can live in communion with God.
>3)
Hebrews 2:17-18 "Thus he had to become like his brothers in every way, so that he could be a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God and could atone for the people's sins. Because he himself suffered when he was tempted, he is able to help those who are being tempted.
>4)
"For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in union with Christ Jesus our Lord." Sin is a crime againts God. If you commit crime you will be punished accordingly. God is just and wont ignore wrongdoings. Since no-one is able to pay their dept God did it for them out of love: Indeed, just as people are appointed to die once and after that to be judged,so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people."
>5)
As I answered to previous question, no-one can pay their dept. People mostly measure good life as life where scale between good and evil is weighted on good side. But if you take juridical system for example. You will have to answer for murder even if your life has been otherwise good. Same applies before God.
>6, 7)
Son has always existed with God. God exists as three persons but is one being with single divine nature. Jesus also took human nature.
John 3:16 "“For this is how God loved the world: He gave his unique Son so that everyone who believes in him might not perish but have eternal life."
>>70869287
http://pastebin.com/xMQ9wAwW
OP check out this link.
>>70871677
no one says god would forgive everyone, but the ones who deserve it in his eyes, the same ones he would forgive now. There is no need to be killed by humans to pay of there sins. And sin wouldnt become trivial because people who dont strive for a good life are doomed because they dommed the earth and society
>>70871906
>7. Catholic false idol power structure
> Catholic
> The Trinity...
Kiddo, non-trinitarian Christianity is a young and tiny aberration in the Christian world. It's not just Roman Catholic.
Personally, I do find the Trinity to be a pointless bit of nonsense, quite unnecessary when compared with the rest of the Christian ideology, but you have to acknowledge that Christianity has almost always followed it.
1)If jesus is also god you believe that humans killed and tortured god on earth
Jesus is both human and divine, so yes.
2)you believe you are made in the image of god, what does this mean? Like your nose, eyes, body or in our minds, like anger, wrath, envy, evil thoughts, weakness
Our cognitive process is modeled similarly to that of gods. We experience, grasp insights, and make judgments.
3)Why should god just watch as we torture and kill his son? Why set him through all this torture and not just give him a heartinfact or something like that?
Jesus’ death was an act of compassionate and infinite love. The entire point is that Jesus did not have to die on the cross, there was no reason for him too, he did it as an act of love.
4)Why should it be neccessary that gods son is treated so misarble for us to be saved? Why not just save the people who live good lives and listen to god?
Yes and No. It is necessary in the sense that God could have done nothing else, as to say, it was Gods very nature to die on the cross, because God is love, and the death on the cross was an act of love.
5)Why should god send good and rightouness living people to hell only they didnt belive that he had a son?
God does not send anyone to hell, they go of their own volition, and up until the absolute last moment they have every opportunity to accept God’s love.
6)How did god get a son? Had he a wife? Created he just a human and declared him as his son?
This is just a stupid question, sorry, but really?
7)Whats up with this trinity? !One! God, but he is actually a father, a son and a holy ghost?
God= 1 substance. Trinity = 3 aspects of substance.
>>70872268
>http://pastebin.com/xMQ9wAwW
thank you, iam looking into it
>>70872332
No one deserves it, his mercy towards people is wholly unwarranted by anything they themselves do. Everyone deserves damnation, no one would strive for him if he did not make them.
>>70872332
>the ones who deserve it in his eyes
No one -deserves- to be forgiven though. Our entire lives from birth to death are one great big sinfest. We are constantly doing wrong in what we do, what we say, what we think, how we feel, and so on. Humans are all twisted up and evil, so they don't deserve eternal life and to have their existences sustained forever by God.
>>70869524
>Why pray to maria, or other holy people when there is only one god who could hear you?
Are you a Muslim? I am not Spanish, but when I came to live here, I finally understood this "polytheist" / Mushrikin thing better. I live near a large rock with a Moorish castle on top. In a cave on the side, they've placed a statue of the Virgin Mary. Just think; for centuries, this was home of harsh abstract purist iconoclastic Mohammedanism. And yet once reconquered, a symbol of femininity and human softness has been restored to the rock. Islam is barren and soulless.
>>70872732
>>70872799
if no one deserves salvation then why create heaven and hell to begin with? Why saying you judge them right if no one can archive rightess salvation.
You are saying humans are more evil than good? How does this match with in the image of god?
>>70872578
>7)Whats up with this trinity? !One! God, but he is actually a father, a son and a holy ghost?
God= 1 substance. Trinity = 3 aspects of substance.
Thanks for this one
>>70872578
iam dead serious with the son question, in germany they say jesus was his son, so how did he get a son?
>>70869287
1) Jesus was God born human. He was tortured and killed because he challenged the taught doctrine of the Pharisees and was declared a heretic (Not sure about heretic part but atleast close I think)
2) Yes we are made in his image but not literally. Be careful not to read the bible literally like you would normal books that might use figurative speech. Those you mention are the seven deadly sins except evil thoughts/minds and anger and wrath are virtually the same. Evil is the lack of Goodness just as Cold is the lack of warmth.
3) Jesus took the punishment that would've been ours. Like how a prisoner might be sentenced to death, he took that himself instead.
4) If you wipe your clean hands with a dirty towel, your hands will still be dirty. This is why Jesus was sent because he is the only one worthy to take all of mankind's sins. He's literally God after all.
6) "Son" is just a name. He is called God the Son because he was born.
7) This is complicated and I'm not a licensed Theologian but I'll try. It's like water, it can be solid, liquid, or gas but they all are still water. The Holy Spirit is what enters and dwells within a person once that person is "saved." The Son is Jesus who comes to earth to "save" people. I don't know much about God the Father but my guess is that if Jesus was not perfect he would not be worthy to carry mankind's sins so his job is to where Jesus comes from. It wouldn't make sense for the Holy Spirit to come to a man if he wasn't made clean by a "dirty cloth" nor would Jesus make sense if the Holy Spirit doesn't come to a person as that would mean the man isn't actually clean. God the Father wouldn't make sense if Jesus couldn't do his job. I'm sure there are Christians out there who don't believe in the Trinity so for debunking my ideas of Trinity I'll leave it to them. Also, remember OP that the trinity isn't important to Christianity. The important part is faith in Jesus.
>>70873044
Christs atonement for us on the cross is our justification in gods judgment, our sins have already been payed for.
We are in gods image due to our rational faculties, however we are not perfect like he is. So Adam fell and cursed us with being fundamentally depraved.
>>70869287
I'm a Jew but I can give you good insight on it, OP.
>If Jesus is also god you believe that humans killed and tortured god on earth
Yeshua was believed to be the son of Adonai, but not Adonai himself. By torturing and murdering Yeshua, Adonai perceived this act as a direct confrontation against Him. When Yeshua pleaded Adonai to forgive us for our sins He died a martyr and prevented humanity from being annihilated, as Adonai perceived us as 'faulty creations'.
>you believe you are made in the image of god, what does this mean? Like your nose, eyes, body or in our minds, like anger, wrath, envy, evil thoughts, weakness
"What is humankind, that You are mindful, / human beings, that you pay attention to them? / You have made them little lower than divine"
We were created to resemble Him and the Divine, but not to be exactly like them. So our appearance, behavior, emotions, intelligence, while not at the same level of the Divine, we still share the same basic traits with the Divine, including Adonai.
>Why should god just watch as we torture and kill his son? Why set him through all this torture and not just give him a heartinfact or something like that?
Because Yeshua pleaded for Him not to end us, therefore dying a martyr.
>Why should it be neccessary that gods son is treated so misarble for us to be saved? Why not just save the people who live good lives and listen to god?
Adonai can't directly communicate with us, only in rare occasions through prophets and those who have been "touched by His grace". Yeshua, as a prophet and messanger of Adonai, was intended to deliver His words to civilization. We, as His creation, were intended to learn from Him and do as He said. To understand this you need to understand how parents would treat their children: they are a creation of them, some children misbehave, others don't, that doesn't mean the parents will simply murder their children who misbehave. They will teach them, and hope for them to change.
>>70872877
yes iam muslim.
When you say mushrik, i assume you are also one.
Islam seems soulless because of the hadiths, they dismiss music, art and lot of literature. If we could get rid of hadiths and just follow the Koran we would have as good as no extremists, no stoning people, no death punishment for non belivers, no converting through force only by free will.
Hadiths are the worst thing which happend to islam
>>70869287
>Why should god send good and rightouness living people to hell only they didnt belive that he had a son?
It would be seen as a confrontation against Adonai, as those who did not believe in the words of Yeshua were also neglecting the messages Adonai was trying to transmit to us, and therefore were perceived as a threat.
>How did god get a son? Had he a wife? Created he just a human and declared him as his son?
Virgin Mary was simply the bringer of Yeshua, it could've been any other woman, but Adonai believed Mary was the right woman to give birth to the Messiah. She was not the wife of Adonai, she was simple the one who brought the Messiah to our world, serving as an interface between us and the Divine.
>>70873614
Isn't the Quran without the hadiths kind of context-less and impossible to understand
>>70873476
you explained it very nicely, with much good intentions. Slowly i get a grip of christianity
>>70869287
1.) yes
2.) not sure
3.) to physically demonstrate His love for us. Nothing says love like sacrificing your loved ones for the greater good
4.) Once again, it demonstrated his willingness to sacrifice for our benefit
5.) I'm not sure. I don't know of other scriptures that talk about this (although there might be). But it kept saying that the only path to salvation is through Christ. This could either mean through his teachings or through believing in him with Christianity. But we should still convert those to it just in case.
6.) God transcends time and space, he's like a computer programmer who can make his software whatever he wants
7.) God exists in 3 forms, The being "the Father", Jesus "the Son, and through acts of goodness and righteousness "The Holy Spirit"
>>70873614
What kind of Muslim doesn't follow the hadiths? Are you from some kind of Shiite tendency? If so, you have to be honest with yourself: Your ancestors were forced into Islam by the sword, and didn't dare apostasise for fear of death. So they made up a kind of compromise thing. It's not real Islam, it's a kind of damage-control policy!
Mushrikin is what the Moors habitually called the Christians here in Spain. And here there was only nastier kinds of Sunni Islam, like that of the Daesh predecessors, the Almohades. Nasty bastards.
I myself do not belong to any particular organised religion, though I side with Christians for historical reasons.
>>70869287
>made in the image of God
it's a reference to humans being above mere animals, basically means we are more than just the sum of our parts
at least that's what I was taught
>>70873829
when you read it without context, the main message is life a god serving, rightouness life dont hurt, kill, disrespect other creatures regardless of religion, Pray often to stay in touch with god and see your mistakes and get rid off them, fear god, love your withhumans and treat your family especialy good.
On the other hand it says clearly that you shall fight if you are attacked, or people try to block you from practising your religion free.
>>70869287
Christian here. I'm also a scientist; microbiologist. I work in a hospital and try to prevent diseases spreading. Most of my working life is glued to a microscope.
I will try to answer your questions.
1. Yes.
2. Examine nature. A flower, birdsong, vegetables, a cat jumping, the cycle of life and death, the noise of a storm, waterfalls, the beauty of existence. Please look at the night sky- stars upon stars. How were they created? What caused their being?
3. Christ showed us an example. We all must suffer pain. Pain is part of life. Grace comes from love.
4. Christ's suffering is a reflection of our suffering.
5. Hell is a creation of the human spirit. God doesn't create hell. Hell is separation from God.
6. We are all God's children.
7. The Holy Trinity represents God. Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Three in one.
I hope I've helped. Pic is my church. And here's some meditative Christian voices if you want to listen.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J-J2kuSCLvE&list=RDrVLlBDgQsOo&index=3
I haven't quoted anything from the Holy Bible.
Peace to you.
>>70873999
no iam not shiite, there is a strom in islam which calls themselves quranite, we belive if the koran is from god it is enough, there is no other explaining scripture needed, because god is all knowing he wouldnt give us a holy scripture which we couldnt understand completly, the koran is complete and needs no supporting texts.
But sunnis would propably like to kill me if they hear this kind of talk. Which is strange we belive in one mercyfull, loving god and follow his prophets but they would say we are nonbelivers.
https://quranite.com/
Thanks for this thread, Swiss friend. I have another question for the Christians.
If God works in ways beyond human comprehension, then how is the bible his word, rather than a human abstraction attempting to phrase his word? What I mean is that human language may or may not be sufficient to describe his word, as is evidenced by the numerous translations that sometimes vary in meaning dramatically.
>>70874676
>Which is strange we belive in one mercyfull, loving god and follow his prophets but they would say we are nonbelivers.
Welcome to Abrahamic religions. They all have the same roots, but they all view eachother as heretical.
>>70874488
very nice, slowly i think i get a better understanding for christianity.
Same to you, good luck
>>70874676
If the Words of allah are in corruptible and the Torah and the Gospel were sent by allah, how were their words corrupted?
if you don't mind me asking
>>70874676
Thanks for the info
>>70874835
Most christians don't take the Bible as God's literal word, as in its not a set of commandments or absolute statements, rather it is a set of ideas told through different stories which reveals some greater truth about the nature of God.
>>70874964
very good question, i think that no scripture is word by word from god, its all (Hindu Verdas, Evangelium, Thora, Koran...) inspired by good intentions coming from god who wants our best. And that humans have the power to curropt this scriptures, because of their free will.
The koran cant be one to one deliverd, because there are several edition of the korans, every translation is bit different, but since the beginning of islam they put a high value in keeping the koran in the original state so i think this is the least corrupted scripture.
>>70869287
>1)If jesus is also god you believe that humans killed and tortured god on earth
Jesus wasn't really God as in the same entity as God. God exists outside of our reality, it's hard to explain.
>2)you believe you are made in the image of god, what does this mean? Like your nose, eyes, body or in our minds, like anger, wrath, envy, evil thoughts, weakness
I think it's more of a mental thing, the capability for higher thought that distinguishes us from animals
>3)Why should god just watch as we torture and kill his son? Why set him through all this torture and not just give him a heartinfact or something like that?
The point is lost on you, read the bible (again).
>4)Why should it be necessary that gods son is treated so miserable for us to be saved? Why not just save the people who live good lives and listen to god?
Because it shows us that we can be saved, that there is hope for salvation.
>5)Why should god send good and righteous living people to hell only they didn't believe that he had a son?
How do you know He does that?
>6)How did god get a son? Had he a wife? Created he just a human and declared him as his son?
He's God dude, He can do whatever
>7)Whats up with this trinity? !One! God, but he is actually a father, a son and a holy ghost?
look at 1, they're different entities
>>70869287
>1)If jesus
Fake messiah
>you believe you are made in the image of god, what does this mean?
It means you should stop making up sins that do not exist, I am a son of God, and if I wan to suck a horse dick, I fucking will
>3)Why should god just
I still don't know the true story, I know that there was a christ and that's it
>the people who live good lives
What is a good life?
>6)How did god get a son?
He has many
>7)Whats up with this trinity?
Literal devil worship
>>70874835
Translations that are literal tend not to be that drastically different and while he did not reveal everything about his incomprehensible nature, he did reveal everything necessary to be saved.
>>70874964
there are even special schoolars who have to be able to recite the hole koran out of there mind so they can see mistakes in some editions, they claim this people existed since the beginning of the islam and this way they kept it almost in his original state
>>70869287
Your capitalization is all over the place.
1) Yes, that's how much God loves us, he'd come to Earth and let us torture him so he can forgive us.
2)Yes, both or neither, it doesn't really matter and won't make sense anyway. It's a mystery.
3)Because something about the sacrifice and how much he had to suffer. Try to stop thinking about this so much. Really if you have any question that starts "why does God" just ignore that question because the official answer is stupid and unsatisfactory.
4)Again, fuck you, syop trying to make any sort of sense out of this.
5)This is getting repetitive.
6)He knocked up a mortal's wife, as gods are wont to do. Says right there in the text.
7)It's a mystery. You need to stop thinking so hard or thinking things should make any sense.
>>70869287
1.
Yes
2.
Varies based on sect. Some claim yes, some claim no. Some claim all things are created in God's image and should be loves equally no matter their status. I subscribe to the last one, it's what St. Francis really followed.
3
. Because we have free will and he doesn't want to meddle with us though we choose to sin. Or he doesn't exist, or like deists believe, God just created the universe and let's it be without ever really interfering.
4.
the point of it was so that God could be flesh (a mortal being) so he could ascend to heaven as both a flawed and perfect being. If you read th e Bible their are times when Jesus gets pretty frustrated at others for greed. Like the temple scene. This proves that there are no such thing as bad people, even if you sin, very few people end up going to hell. Those who do were beyond all saving, and there are very few people beyond being reformed
5. He doesn't. If you believe you were doing the right thing and tried your best on earth you will go to heaven. You have to spend some time in purgatory to learn your sins, by you're absolved of them eventually.
6.
Joseph had sex with Mary. God, seeing the possibilty of her child, mad her son his son as well. Or if your Catholic Mary was a virgin and never touched her husband, so God came down in a ray of light and impregnates her. Without having sex somehow.
7. God is all of those things yeah. Or none of them. You have to search for this one on your own.
Uses to be Christian, not so much anymore but I hope this helps.
Some of your questions are addressed here
gotquestions.org/Jesus-suffering.html
Jesus is the physical son of God, and it was necessary that he be fully man so he could live the perfect life and sacrifice himself for our sins, because there is no other worthy sacrifice compared to the depth of our sin. The book of Romans makes it clear that "the wages of sin is death" and "all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God", so everybody needs the sacrifice so we can be on right terms with God. This sacrifice needed to be in line with the prophecy in Isaiah 52 and 53.
We are made in the image of God, in the spiritual sense. We possess eternal souls.
Jesus is clear in John 14:6 when he says "I am the way and the truth and the life, no one comes to the Father except through Me." To put it simply, you cannot be good and deny Christ, because you cannot have salvation from your sin.
Mary had Jesus while still a virgin, because that's how God said it would happen in the old testament. It signifies the perfect nature of Jesus, whose purpose was to live the perfect life and sacrifice himself in Grace.
The Trinity looks like this, in figure. All are God but have different roles.
>>70873888
Thanks, I was worrying if I explained it good or not. Obviously, I would be glad if someone shared the faith that I hold dear. Keep soul searching OP and I hope you find your answers.
>>70875365
So the Bible is just telling you how to be saved, is that it? Seems to trivialize the word.
>>70875319
>5)
in the bible, if iam not mistaking, its clearly phrased that people who dont belive in god, jesus are doomed for an eternal hell.
>4)hope for salvation would also exist without the death of jesus, if god wanted it to exist
>>70869287
1. But not everyone agreed, or even liked Jesus. Can't help that
2. It could mean anything
3. God watches bc we have free will to do what we want to. Truly the most important life we live will be in heaven. Everything is futile and human life could all be a test to prove yourself worthy of the most high place, Heaven.
4. In fulfillment of the scriptures. Because no one is immortal, even Hesus had to die, and that's how he died.
5. God doesn't send you to hell for not believing in Jesus you just do not receive the reward of Jesus which who knows might be a cool thing to have when you're getting judged.
6. He somehow made Mary pregnant. Perhaps Josepg came in his underpants, Mary tried them on, no sex but the cum made her pregnant. And that's how God did it and won't do it again.
7. God is the most high, Jesus is his right hand, the Holy Spirit is how he created consciousness. All equally important. But obv if there is more lives God takes care of, he'd be more important than the human God.
>>70870893
>justice
There can be no true justice when the judge has known since the beginning of time what the accused would do and set up the conditions for the things to be done.
This is stupid
>>70875452
Thanks for the response.
What about Uthman burning the copies of the quran that did not say what he wanted it to even the codex written by Abu bakir.
>>70875672
That is not all it is but it is very important no?
>>70875710
That is just an assertion without argument
>>70875913
>Irony
>>70875849
If your incentive for having faith is predominantly to be saved rather than doing what's right, then I don't agree with you.
>>70875776
never heard of that, from where do you have your knowlege on this topic, you seem like you know a lot over islam, good possible even more than i do.
Which religion do you follow?
>>70870195
There is no such thing as a good and righteous person. The main premise of Christianity is that humanity is imperfect.
>>70869287
I will explain all of Christian doctrine to you right now
on 4chan
on /pol/
wait.. never mind... GAS THE JEWS
>>70875913
Okay, how can there be justice when the creator made everything and knew from the beginning everything that would ever happen? Anything that happens would because he made it so.
>>70869287
I have it on good authority, I'm almost 100% percent sure that one of the initial, now hidden commandments was: HATE YOUR ENEMIES.
And suddenly jesus the fag comes and says love them.
Fake messiah.
All he preaches ruins mankinds fun forever, and this world was made for us to enjoy however as long as we followed guidelines that are not available anymore, meaning we are currently free of sin.
>>70876153
i wonderd myself that many people responded reasonable, but iam glad about it
>>70869287
1, Jesus is the avatar of God. He is God in human form.
2, Being in the image of God means to look like God.
3 and 4, Jesus Christ died FOR YOUR SINS. Every sin you have committed personally, he bore on the cross. Every sin that ever was or will be in mankind Jesus Christ bore upon the Cross. It was necessary only because you have sinned and continue to sin. Jesus Christ did this because it gives you a chance. A non jew had no chance to enter heaven before Jesus Christ sacrificed himself on the cross. Now you have a chance to be saved. Instead of the jews being the chosen of God, all Christians are now Gods chosen.
But simply put, Jesus suffered and allowed himself to suffer on the cross because of your sins. To bare your sins instead of you. So that you would have a chance to be saved from hell.
And I mean that in a personal way. Every lie you've told. Every adulterous act. Every sin you personally have ever committed and will commit Jesus Christ bore on the Cross.
4, Why? Because God himself sacrificed his only begotten son so that whoever believes in him may be saved.
5, You are NOT saved by your works on this earth. Being a good person does not get you to heaven. The only way to the father is through the son. Only through the admission that you are a sinner and that Jesus Christ died for your sins, can you enter heaven. Trust not in your works.
6, Jesus Christ is the avatar of God. He was born to a virgin on earth Mary mother of Christ. And lived a life devoid of sin.
7, Hinduism sheds a lot of light on this. In Hinduism there is only one God. The supreme being. But there are many aspects of him. His wealth and luck is Ganesh, his wrath Shiva.
God is the same. Jesus is his avatar. The holy spirit his spirit, and the father is the God head. But all are part of the supreme being that is God. Much like a man's hands, arms, feet, legs, torso and head make up his body.
>>70876257
we are not free of sin, you have a mind and are able to think things through, you should be able to decide between good and bad so every human has the responibility to act on his best intentions if hes not acting on good intention hes sinning.
>>70874946
Thank you.
The reason I believe is because I can't understand the power of creation without a creator.
>>70874835
The Holy Bible was inspired by God. It is a complicated work. There are many layers to it.
For example there is the Old Testament (with no mention of Christ) and the New Testament which is about the teachings and life of Christ.
It isn't like the Muslim book; the Holy Koran; which was dictated to Mohammed. The Holy Bible is a collection written by human beings, with a hidden hand. The hand of God.
>>70869287
1) Yes. Humans only killed and tortured the mortal body God had assumed, though (and even then, he rose from the dead afterwards).
2) Probably as a being that is to some degree free in its actions and thoughts, and can have abstract thoughts.
3, 4, 5, 6) Jesus is not God's son in that Jesus is a separate entity fathered by God. Jesus is God (Himself!) inhabiting a human body.
He is the Son, an aspect of God (the other two being the Father and the Holy Ghost), and equated with the Logos (the Word) of the Old Testament through which God creates the world. In my own interpretation, I'd say the Son is the aspect of God through which he interacts with the mortal world.
7) Not “a” father, son, and holy ghost. “The”. He is one being, but the different aspects as which we perceive Him (as a timeless creator, as a person who is present in our lives, and as a force that grants faith and guides fates) have been given these three names.
>>70876366
you are saying being a good person on earth doesnt get you into heaven (this what follows you didnt say) but a bad person which in the end of his days start to belive in jesus comes into heaven?
If jesus carrys all our sins than we are not judged fair because someone else was punished for our sins, but we should be the suffering ones, because we did this deeds
>>70876819
Then do not believe in Jesus. You will receive due punishment for your sins.
What Christ did for mankind was an act of pure selflessness. It was an act which gave ALL mankind the chance for eternal life with God which prior was only the remit of the jews.
If you spit at the gift that Christ has offered you and suffered horribly for, then you probably deserve what you get.
And yes, I am saying that being a Good person doesn't garner you entry into heaven. Every one has sin. Every one. No one has lived a life without sin. Being good doesn't wipe the debt of your sin. It's still there. Only believing in Christ and through him God, can you be saved from your otherwise unavoidable fate. And yes. Even the most terrible people, if they believe in Christ will enter heaven.
>>70876013
It isn't more important, but it is important.
>>70875585
>because that's how God said it would happen in the old testament
verse(s)?
>>70874676
Quranites might as well not exist, 99% of Muslims reject this.
Why, though, would a Creator of this vast universe restrict himself so much as to only provide one written revelation of His will, to one man (quite a bad one), one people (limited to one language, even), and at one time? That is absurd, and downright preposterous. Shrug off this Islam nonsense, and just be an honest theist if you must.
>>70876819
Jesus was the sacrificial lamb to end all sacrificial lambs, and took away the Original Sin of Adam & Eve. He returned to us the innocence of a child: a child will make many mistakes as it grows up, and it will get scolded for them—but if it sees the errors of its ways, it learns from these mistakes and avoids them later in live, and it loves dearly the parents who have raised it so, then all will be forgiven.
Jesus doesn't take away all the sins you actually do in your own lifetime [spoiler]unless you're Protestant[/spoiler]—but through Him God has shown us that if we repent because we love Him as He loves us, He will forgive us our sins (and spare us the punishment of hell) and welcome us with open arms anyway.
>>70876819
It's not Jesus' decision that is Gods decision. That's the difference you must understand.
Maybe someone murdered one person but they got to heaven while someone else stole money which made a family homeless causing the child to commit mass murder. Maybe then the original their would not go to heaven bc of how much negative influence he had on multiple people and not just killing one.
>>70876786
>Jesus is not God's son in that Jesus is a separate entity fathered by God.
well I should add that this is actually the case as well regarding Jesus's physical body.
it's fucking late at night though and the question of whether Jesus had a human soul and a divine soul and stuff like that has been the subject of century-long theological debates and I'd rather sleep now
>>70877365
iam not saying that islam is the only way, for some hinduism is the best, for other christianity they are all inspired from god, in the end it makes no difference if you call your creator jahwe or veshnu in this way god gave every country his prophets some with scriptures some without. But all contain the same groundrules and lifeguides
>>70876071
I don't have a great source on hand but, this mentions it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abdullah_ibn_Masud#Alleged_criticism_of_the_Qur.27an
I am a Christian
>>70869287
>1)If jesus is also god you believe that humans killed and tortured god on earth
Yesss.
>2)you believe you are made in the image of god, what does this mean? Like your nose, eyes, body or in our minds, like anger, wrath, envy, evil thoughts, weakness
Spirit and originally (Adam/the first earth animal to have a god-relationship if you believe in evolution) physically.
>3)Why should god just watch as we torture and kill his son? Why set him through all this torture and not just give him a heartinfact or something like that?
Because within God's justice system, when a law is broken, death is the punishment. There must be a punishment. No punishment, no justice.Jesus paid that punishment for all of us for all time. Jesus was tortured because jews doing jew things.
>4)Why should it be neccessary that gods son is treated so misarble for us to be saved? Why not just save the people who live good lives and listen to god?
Because of the justice system. We are all sinners. There is no such thing as a good person compared to God and the law.
>5)Why should god send good and rightouness living people to hell only they didnt belive that he had a son?
You make your own hell. God doesn't send you there, you send yourself of your own choice and volition. You can save yourself by your own choice and volition at any time, including after death according to nde reports.
>6)How did god get a son? Had he a wife? Created he just a human and declared him as his son?
God has cheat codes to the universe.
>7)Whats up with this trinity? !One! God, but he is actually a father, a son and a holy ghost?
Yes. God exists outside space and time. He can be all three in the same place at the same time or different places and times.
>>70876233
Him knowing about it does not mean we did not do it, we are still responsible for the sins we commit.
How does the fact that God knew someone would commit murder, mean that murder is no longer unjust, is it not innately unjust.
>>70873333
He miraculously impregnated the virgin mary.
there is a theory, however; that she was accidentally impregnated by a man, who was masturbating in the water, watching her bathe.
>>70877801
You're not a Muslim then. Why cling to that nonsense if you reject the basic elements of exclusivity that it's built upon? "There is no god but Allah, and Muhammad is his prophet".
>>70877337
Isaiah 7:14
Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel
>>70878063
yes allah is the only god and the most beautifull names belong to him (Jehowa, God..) and mohammed is one, in a long line of prophets, messanger. This parts are one to one out of the koran.
Muslim=Server of god (straiving for your best innerself with the help of god)
>>70877801
But most religions disagree How can salvation be dependent on Accepting Christ's sacrifice or rejecting it and following Muhammad. they contradict each other.
>>70878283
dont most religions aim at making you a better self? living a rightesfull life and to honor god?
Accepting christ is in my eyes not neccessary for you to have a relationship with god and do your best to become a good humanbeing
>>70869287
>1) Yes
>2) Mind, body, and soul most of anything. As >>70870893 said, we're the only creatures on Earth with the ability to reason.
>3) Jesus' death on the cross was symbolic of the sacrifices commited in the Old Testament. In the past, people would sacrifice oxes and lambs to pay for their sins. Jesus, often depicted as a lamb, was crucified on the cross as a way of permanently paying for our sins.
>4) See above
>5) No one is truly good and righteous, not even Christians. In Matthew 5:48, in the sermon on the mount, Jesus says "You are to be perfect, even as your father in Heaven is perfect." Obviously this is impossible. Furthermore, Matthew 7:22-23 says "On judgement day many will say to me, 'Lord! Lord! We prophesied in your name and cast out demons in your name and performed many miracles in your name.' But I will reply, I never knew you. Get away from me, you who break God's laws." The point here is that our actions, our "good deeds" won't get us into Heaven. It's only by God's grace that we're forgiven.
>6) An angel miraclously impregnated the virgin Mary. In modern terms, God cucked Joseph
>7) I don't know, man.
>>70878415
I was reading with interest this threads when
>Accepting christ is in my eyes not neccessary
Another muslims will burn in hell for eternity.
I'm not even surprised.
To be made in the image of God means we have a very powerfull spirit ourselfs an immortal one.
Offcourse you must take into account that God created man in his image before the fall.
I believe we can still get the spirit but only throug Jesus Christ
>>70869287
1. Yes, the jews/romans did.
2. We were made with higher intelligence, free will, and other things not granted to the "beasts" (animals)
3. As C. S. Lewis said it, "only a man could die for the sins of mankind, but only God could do it perfectly." There had to be a God born as a human for it to work, to undo the original sin.
4.
>Why not just save the people who live good lives and listen to god?
because God loves all of his children, especially the sinners. Like how a dad almost likes his most rebellious son the most.
5. Because a sign, which is supposed to have never been given to mankind, that God was real, was given. If you can't at least take it on faith with the rest of Christendom, you aren't Christian.
6. Yeshua of Nazareth was born immaculately. This means a woman developed a fetus without having had intercourse with a man, because it was willed by God. NO ONE besides men claimed Jesus to be the son of God, and most called him "Son of Man" to ridicule his teachings.
7. The Holy Trinity is treated as a sacred concept that cannot be understood by mortal men. It's part of the "'For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways,' declares the LORD" thing.
No worries bro, every new Christian, child or not, has the same questions. This is what Catechism is for in the Catholic church.
>>70869287
>1)If jesus is also god you believe that humans killed and tortured god on earth.
Yes, and he laid his life down John 10:18
>2)you believe you are made in the image of god, what does this mean? Like your nose, eyes, body or in our minds, like anger, wrath, envy, evil thoughts, weakness
Made in the image and likeness. Physically yes, creativity - we must remember people have been corrupted, freewill, and the most unique relationship in all of creation Redemption.
>3)Why should god just watch as we torture and kill his son? Why set him through all this torture and not just give him a heartinfact or something like that?
God prepared the lamb before the foundations of the earth the perfect sacrifice. He who knew no sin became sin, every vile evil thing that had ever been or would be was laid upon him. He had to fulfill 400+ prophecy's in the 66 books of the bible there's probably way more.
>4)Why should it be neccessary that gods son is treated so misarble for us to be saved? Why not just save the people who live good lives and listen to god?
No one is good, not a single one. Luke 18:19. God is just, if a crime is committed there has to be a punishment, it would be anarchy.
>5)Why should god send good and rightouness living people to hell only they didnt belive that he had a son?
Like above, Satan even believe God has a son, you have to believe and repent(turn away from evil). Also God looks and judges the heart, just because someone looks holier than thou doesn't make it so.
>6)How did god get a son? Had he a wife? Created he just a human and declared him as his son?
No idea, he is begotten. God does not have a "woman wife" he is married to the backslider though. Jesus existed before all of creation, "Before Moses was I AM" In Job he questions Job where he was when He made the universe.
>7)Whats up with this trinity? !One! God, but he is actually a father, a son and a holy ghost?
Yeah, together but separate, dunno how it works but it does
>>70869287
1) yes, though the Old Testament calls them the rulers of this world which is a kind of ancient Judain colloquialism for demons, so people blinded or tricked by demons or something.
2)the second part, mostly in our minds
3) it was kind of like a trick on the demons 4 will explain more
4) ancient judains practiced blood magic ( see yom kippur) Jesus's death was to be the sacrifice that trumped all sacrifices ( like a super yom kippur) and to take away the sin of the world forever so that God could bring the rapture. By killing him it would restore the dominion over earth to god essentially.
5) because he's a jealous cunt who wants your attention undevided attention.
6) this is sorta up for debate. the gospel and Catholics say it was a virgin birth, Jesus was conceived of the holy spirt in Mary. The Old Testament doesn't really mention a virgin it just says young woman, so some think it may have just been a mistranslation in the gospel or it could be an implied virgin or something along those lines.
7) this is mostly a Catholic thing that was added later on in the history of the faith.
>>70878219
>Muslim=Server of god (straiving for your best innerself with the help of god)
No, if you are sincere, you belong to an irrelevant little sect that is not even 0.001% of the world Islamic population. Muslims, looking at the world honestly with open eyes, are devotees of Muhammad who submit to the doctrines that have been cherished in the Muslim world since his ministry. You can't just make up something nicer than this and still keep applying the same name to it. You are only a Muslim in name, keeping the name due to fear and inertia. If you are sincere. And there's good old taqiya to take into consideration here, after all!
>>70878728
you honor god, you try your best (pray, read holy scriputers, read philosophie, help people, feed the poor....) to be good person and god puts you in hell for all eternity just because you didnt belive he had a son?
A different person drinks, steals his hole life and is a burden to humankind, but on his deathbed he accepts christ and comes into heaven.
This is your understanding of a just god?
>>70878415
Actually a lot of Pagan religions, have a concept of original sin and most Buddhist sect believe that we are no longer able to obtain enlightenment in this era. The Vedas also teach sacrificing animals for atonement for sins etc.
So I think most religions teach that humanity is fundamentally corrupt. So the question is how to change this. each religion gives a contradicting answer. I think the one found in the Bible is the correct one. If this is the case then accepting Christ would be necessary. Since Christ is god you can't have a relationship with one and not the other.
>>70878728
You are not helping
>>70878875
thats my beginningpoint with the harm of the hadiths, they are the worst thing happend to islam, they teach you to "worship" mohammed and that you should kill people which insult islam or mohammed and much more bad stuff which is in no way compatible with the teachings from the koran
if you belive iam doing taqya do a little research about "the cancer of islam hadiths"
>>70878994
There are obviously questions that could be asked about the motivations one has while "doing good deeds" and if those negate the goodness of the deeds. Also do you believe that good deeds wash away the bad ones?
If justice is, as Aristotle defined it, giving to each his due then is denying God, in the person of Christ not a sinful act?
>>70878875
if i belong to minority group doesnt matter, its often a bad sign to have the same opinion as the majority
>>70869524
>catholicism
>christianity
Pick one and only one (only joking catholic bros - srs tho stop being idolators pls).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iconoclasm
>>70879309
>if you belive iam doing taqya do a little research about "the cancer of islam hadiths"
Mate, there comes a point when there simply isn't time in life to "research" everything somebody tries to sell us. Ultimately, there comes a point when you just have to look at things on face value and say "fuck this Arab shite", it's done nobody any good anywhere, and never will.
what am I, info department. Ask god. Our maybe read a book.
>>70879452
>barring books from canon to fit your world view
proddies are scum
>>70878994
>god puts you in hell for all eternity just because you didnt belive he had a son?
You will meet Jesus one day. If your heart is open to God, you will love him and he will love you (he will love you anyway even if you hate him and choose to go to hell). He won't care that you weren't Christian in this life. I think. God instituted islam for your people for a reason.
>>70879395
the intentions behind his deeds are that every human should have a peacefull and good life on earth and that he wants to do his part to make the world a nice place to live in.
I dont think good deeds wash awaya the bad ones, but sincere regret, struggle for making things up and to better yourself make a counterweight for them.
If god would seriously requiere the belive in christ as a way into forgiveness than why did he call different religions into life?
>>70879613
bravo sir
>>70878994
If you reject God, and his son, you are choosing hell. Straight and simple.
If you are a bad person, but you are sincerely, with all your heart, repent, God will forgive all your sins, and accept you on heaven.
Catholics believe that a such bad, but sincerely repented person, need do pass some time on purgatory, until his soul is ready and pure for heavens. But not all Christians believe in purgatory.
>>70879818
why should anyone hate jesus, if belive he existed than you also belive it in context to the abrahamic religions and in them he portrayed as a parade example for a human being.
Which reason should this be? Is it the same reason for buddism, jewish faith, ....?
>>70879820
But no one can sustain those motivations all the time.
I don't think we can ever make amends for our sin, especially when we keep committing them.
The other religions are false and the result of lies, corruptions, and misunderstandings and they exist for the same reason any bad thing exists.
>>70873156
So you're saying God is divisible? Isn't the whole greater than the sum of its parts, which means a single part is weak? You're saying He is made of legos or something?
You Christians have a remarkable talent for mental gymnastics, no offense.
>>70880184
i agree you cant make up for your sins, they are done, forgiveness is needed for the soul for every human. But i think you can earn it, if you repent, learn out of your mistakes and do your best in life
>>70878994
>you honor god, you try your best (pray, read holy scriputers, read philosophie, help people, feed the poor....) to be good person and god puts you in hell for all eternity just because you didnt belive he had a son?
Don't make the mistake of thinking good deeds can earn someone into heaven. There are many people who do "good deeds," but for all the wrong reasons. Matthew chapter 6 has a lot of good info on this:
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+6
>god puts you in hell for all eternity just because you didnt belive he had a son?
There are two things I'd like to address here.
First of all, in John 14:6, Jesus says “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." So yes, only those who believe that Jesus Christ died for our sins can receive forgiveness for their sins.
Secondly, despite what generations of churches have taught, there is nothing in the bible that suggests hell will be eternal. Matthew 10:28 says "Don't be afraid of those who want to kill your body; they cannot touch your soul. Fear only God, who can destroy both soul and body in hell." Furthermore, Revelation 21:8 says "...but the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars--they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death." Both of these verses heavily imply that everyone who goes to hell will DIE in hell, rather than burn for all eternity.
>>70869287
1 Christ was not God. Christ was a created being. The firstborn and only begotten. He had a beginning, whereas God did not.
2.We are made in the image of God in that we can display his qualities, like Love, justice, wisdom. power and mercy.
3. Christ had to die a sacrificial death to offer up his life in behalf on all mankind. He had to die a perfect man with no sin. God had to let Satan test him to the full limit of human endurance.
4 Not all people treated him miserably. Christ had 12 apostles but thousands of disciples. The scribes and pharisees wanted to kill him because he exposed their hypocrisy and sins.
5 There is no fiery hell where people are tormented. Hell is the common grave of mankind. It would go against Gods most important attribute of Love to torture someone, even a sinner, forever.
6 God used his Holy spirit to transfer the life of his son to Mary's womb. God did not have to have sex with her. More like artificial insemination.
7 The trinity is a lie. Jesus himself said, "The Father is greater than I am". Jesus was sent to do his Fathers will. Jesus was resurrected by his Father, and exalted to the king of God's kingdom for 1000 years, after which he hands over the kingdom back to his Father, having fully accomplished the the purpose and will of the Father.
>>70869287
1) What makes you think everyone would accept God's love?
2) Free will, the ability to reason, and maybe looks to some extent. I am not entirely sure if God is humanoid or pure energy though. I have a feeling his form is something we cannot comprehend. At least not while we are still mortal.
3)Jesus died so that our sins may be forgiven. Also he wanted to respect our free will. He already knew not everyone would accept salvation. The torture made his sacrifice more meaningful. It shows how much pain he endured to save humanity.
4) It was God's way of giving us another chance at redemption.
5) I am not so sure he does send righteous non-believers to hell. They may go to purgatory or something akin to the first level of hell mentioned in Dante's Inferno. They may even go to heaven. This is not our decision to make and mortals have no place making a judgement here.
6) I think he is part of God in some way. His "wife" could be The Virgin Mary in a way I guess, but we are dealing with the divine here. There is no reason he needs a wife. If he wanted to he could have had Jesus simply appear out of thin air. I think he did that because it would have more of an impact for him to come from a family of humble origins. After all Kings claiming divine lineage was nothing new, but the son of a carpenter doing so is very different.
7) All is one and one is all. I guess you could think of them as different incarnations that are simultaneously still one.
>>70869524
Intercession of the saints. You may ask for a saint to speak to God on your behalf. It's not that you are worshiping them so much as you are asking them for a favor.
>>70880341
It is not really forgiveness if you earn it and it is not just to let crimes just go without anyone paying the penalty.
>>70869287
1. God chooses to destroy all of humanity except for one dude and his family.
2. God chooses to save all of humanity with the death of one Jew.
^^this is supposed to be the same dude? seems totally omnipotent and unable to make mistakes.
>>70869287
So you're saying God exists and that Jesus is God?
>>70880638
>70878994
iam saying god exists, but the jesus concept from the christian viewpoint needed some clarification for me and i got a lot of ideas from the anons
>heartinfact
>enter thread expecting a storm of shit-flinging
>there's actually minimal shit-flinging going on
>not a single fedora posted
Am I hallucinating?
>>70880627
The deluge was primarily designed to wipe out the nephilim. Any corruption of humanity at that time was more than likely due to their influence in some way anyway.
>>70880169
Haven't you ever heard someone cursing God? Don't you believe in hell? To be honest, I believe in universal salvation, but it will take a long time for some souls, maybe most, to let go of their sin.
>>70879916
I merely say it as I see it! ;)
>>70869287
The Jesus mainstream Christians believe in is a made up Jesus. Read the Bible you won't believe what the real Jesus says. He isn't some all peaceful hippy.
>Believing in a Jewish god
T R I G G E R E D
>>70869287
>1)If jesus is also god you believe that humans killed and tortured god on earth
yep
>2)you believe you are made in the image of god, what does this mean? Like your nose, eyes, body or in our minds, like anger, wrath, envy, evil thoughts, weakness
humans are imperfect creations of a perfect entity. since you're only pointing out negative human thoughts you probably already have your mind made up as to how to view christians
>3)Why should god just watch as we torture and kill his son? Why set him through all this torture and not just give him a heartinfact or something like that?
sometimes you have to suffer for what you believe in. god wanted his son to represent that better than anyone so he could get the point across
>4)Why should it be neccessary that gods son is treated so misarble for us to be saved? Why not just save the people who live good lives and listen to god?
see the above for an answer to the first question. for the second, humans aren't perfect. god wants humans to prove their worth.
>5)Why should god send good and rightouness living people to hell only they didnt belive that he had a son?
perhaps believing in his son's message and ideals can get those who do not specifically know the FLESH born jesus into heaven.
>6)How did god get a son? Had he a wife? Created he just a human and declared him as his son?
he's god. he can do anything.
>7)Whats up with this trinity? !One! God, but he is actually a father, a son and a holy ghost?
yep. god can do anything. he's god.
tl;dr version - asking humans to interpret a divine plan will never go perfectly. i'm pretty sure that's the point.
>>70880474
>Christ had to ... He had to ... God had to
Who the hell set these "rules"?
I've never been able to get my head around the "mechanics" of this. HOW does Jesus's sacrifice impact MY sins? WHY should it be the case that it would have to be done at all?
If you don't grow up in this, it seems absurd.
>>70869287
Remember these ideas have passed through eons and many different languages and dialects.
also, it was neccesary for God to be a human and for that human to die a wretched death to demonstrate the most perfect act of unconditional love possible. This saves us on earth. Life on earth is better when we live like jesus.
>>70881250
>these ideas have passed through eons and many different languages and dialects.
Try a mere 60 generations and Aramaic, Greek and Latin. No excuse for confusion.
>>70870063
add cloud of unknowing to this list.
>>70869287
>2016
>worshipping skinny dead hippy kike
>>70881229
see
>>70871677
As for how Jesus paid the penalty so in god's eyes you are cloaked with his righteousness
>>70881229
Christ was a propitiatory sacrifice. He is referred to as the last Adam. Christ had to offer up to God a perfect sacrifice to replace what Adam had lost. So then any who put faith in him can have their sins forgiven and can have the same hope that Adams offspring would have had, perfection on a paradise earth Read Psalms 37:10-11 & 29. It is a symbol of Gog's perfect sense of justice.
>>70873614
Wait what?
Hadiths is the source of all crazy violent stuffs?
No wonder most Muslim I met are actually nice guy.
>>70881616
And here I thought Slovenia was better than this
>>70881667
How many muslims do you even come across in Poland?
>>70881735
>Poland
Check my flag again my friend.
My country claimed to be 90% Muslim.
>>70873044
God didnt create hell hell just happens to be what it feels like to leave god. the bible is very unclear.
I am off, Thanks for the thread OP and please keep studying
Jehovah God saw fit to make his firstborn the central, or key, figure in the outworking of all His purposes (Joh 1:14-18; Col 1:18-20; 2:8,9), the focal point on which the light of all prophecies would concentrate and from which their light would radiate (1Pe 1:10-12; Re 19:10; Joh 1:3-9), the solution to all the problems that Satan’s rebellion had raised (Heb 2:5-9, 14, 15; 1Jo 3:8), and the foundation upon which God would build all future arrangements for the eternal good of His universal family in heaven and earth. (Eph 1:8-10; 2:20; 1Pe 2:4-8) Because of the vital role he thus plays in God’s purpose, Jesus could say, rightly and without exaggeration: “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.”—Joh 14:6.
>>70881845
how is living in a dominantly muslim country?
Are you a muslim?
>Jews
>Human
Pick one.
>>70881360
>mere 60
And your parents have a hard time with your slang.
The ideas of the old testament are the fohndation for the trinity. That reaches back a really long ways.
>>70881660
Yes yes, we all KNOW what you believe, but it still doesn't really make any sense from an outsider's point of view! Islam is filth, but its theologists do have an interesting notion that God is above and beyond any rules, even those of reason itself. The Christian standpoint on this seems so limited and rigid in comparison. Why is a sacrifice seen as a logical and binding action in the very first place? How does Adam's supposed action have an impact on anyone else but himself? None of it makes sense.
>>70881711
>And here I thought Slovenia was better than this
Why?
If a Baby dies before it is baptised, does it go to Hell?
>>70869287
Different sects of Christianity have very different beliefs from one another. If you are truely interested I would recommend reading (or, better yet, listening) to the Bible, both Old and New Testaments. It will give you a perspective that you can't get for people telling you why they believe X, because too many Christians get their beliefs from what they hear preached to the on Sunday and don't give it an ounce of contemplation.
>>70882073
Indonesia accepts 5 religions.
Islam, Hindu, Buddha, Christian, Catholics( pretty strange to exclude Catholics from Christian huh?)
In the 1998 crisis most non-Muslim are killed in Jakarta so they wore hijab and pretend to be Muslim, that's where the idea of 90% Muslim country came from.
But from the data, actually around 20% of us are Christian(Catholics included).
Few years ago many Churches were burned down by radical Muslims, today there's none. The regular everyday Muslims are chill and cool guys.
Also I'm a Christian.
>>70869287
1. Yes, Jesus was tortured. God suffered for our sins. God always suffers for our sins because God loves us. Love means caring for the other for the sake of the other (because God has no needs).
2. Likeness of God is hard to explain. It's not something physical. We also have to consider the fall and our original sin.
3. God was tortured for us. He loves us so much that he became a lowly human and died for our salvation. Jesus is both fully human and fully divine (hypostatic union).
4. Because without God, everyone falls short. We all suffer from original sin. We need God, God doesn't need us.
5. Only God knows who goes to hell.
6. Jesus is God. Son has to do with the trinity.
7. God has three personas in one nature. There are entire books dealing with the mystery of the trinity. Find some and read them.
As you can see, most of the answers involve love in some way. This is exactly what Jesus preached. He summed up the commandment to love.
>>70882769
>In the 1998 crisis most non-Muslim are killed in Jakarta so they wore hijab and pretend to be Muslim
Your country is a great example why Cuckstianity is shit. It makes you meek and weak.
That's why Europe lost its territory to the shitskin hordes for the first time right after we accepted that semitic cuckery.
>>70883235
LOL how can it be?
The one wore hijab and pretend to be Muslim are mostly non-religious people and Buddhist.
Christians are mostly from remote area, not capital like Jakarta.
>>70883639
Yeah ok, but still, they didn't fight back and they let mudslimes to burn all of their churches.
>>70883639
Also the main victims are ethnic group, not religion.
Yellow asians(Chinese descent) are slaughtered by brown asians(Local people).
So most yellow asian in Jakarta (mostly Buddhist and non-religious) pretend to be a Muslim in order to escape persecution.
It was 1998 though, today we're more accepting of each other.
>>70869287
1) Jesus wasn't God, but God was 'in' him. I believe Jesus was a mortal whi trascended mortality at some point and became one with God, as of His will of course.
2) We don't know, and I think we're not supposed to know exactly. Irrelevant.
3) Salvation lies through suffering. In suffering we understand what it means to be human. Again, difficult to explain through hard logic, it's something you come to understand through >that feel.
4) Because that would defeat the purpose of it all: we are supposed to find the path of goodness by ourselves (and thus He can save those who searched and remained in said path), but *how* are we to find it, if at all? It's difficult as it is with Jesus, can you imagine finding it without him? I don't think so.
5) Because there is no Truth but Christ. If you knew of Christ's existence and teachings and you didn't follow him, then you are to burn. If you didn't, they'll judge you above.
6) Read 1).
7) Holy Trinity is a hard concept to grasp, honestly. All Three are God and at the same time They (Jesus and the HG) are not. They are different manifestations of God through different vessels, each of them unique, but all of them an extension of God and not God Himself.
Cheers and repent.
>>70883974
LOL so you want us to burn mosques?
In a Muslim dominated country?
We'll be exterminated for sure then.
We didn't fight back and see how it turned out.
We're now more peaceful than ever.
>>70869287
I don't have all the answers, and am open to criticism - but here is what i believe individually:
1. Jesus was a human, but shared the same spirit/substance as God
2. Image of God - spiritual image. the ability to think rationally, to love, etc. - things that other animals can bearely do
3. Because we are created in his image (as above), we also have free will. As this is the number 1 premise for our differentiation as humans, God can't interfere with our choice. Epictetus said something along the lines of how even God can't coerce us to do anything - it's all in our free will. Take it away - we aren't humans, we aren't able to CHOOSE to love our God. Very sticky issue
4. A few perspectives you can take - ultimately we can't know for sure. But, I think it was a demonstration of Jesus' humanity (ie. he wasn't above all, but suffered just like us (the idea of being in the same image comes up again)), as well as demonstrating how Jesus was given as a sacrifice. Back then, sacrifice was a big deal - only your best livestock. Jesus became the ultimate sacrifice for us, so we don't have to keep following that tradition and focus on living a good life (something like that)
5. another sticky issue. But, just like we have our own law system here on Earth, where good people are rewarded and bad people are punished - we can even see the logic in that. Just because someone murdered someone else but didn't know it wasn't against the law doesn't mean that he shouldn't have to face some form of penalty. The thing here is that it is the responsibility and duty of men who know Christ to let other people know of it (without wasting their pearls to swine [being preachy]) so that they can at least be aware that maybe if they sin there might be a penalty (hell)
>>70884316
My point was that Christianity usually loses against Islam because of its "turn the other cheek" and other similar bullshit that makes people weak. That's why out of all 5 religions in your country, Islam came on absolute top.
And to be clear, I'm not shilling for Islam, I think its a total shit death cult, just pointing out the flaws of Christianity.
>>70884351
6. Son is more of an expression to communicate to humans the relationship between jesus and God. just like we call the earth "Mother". It's not actually our mother, but it provides for us and nurtures us, just as a mother would. Also I'm pretty sure the story of the virgin birth was appropriated from Isis or some egyptian God to help people understand better that this was actually God.
7. Definitions I guess are important here. "God" - the universal entity which created the universe and is a transcendent, uncaused, first cause is made up of 3 aspects. A "father", a "son" and holy spirit. Remember - these are human words to communicate our understanding of the divine, we can never accurately represent until we experience it (when we die maybe). These aspects are "consubstantial" - the same substance, but different forms.
Think about how the compound H2O has three physical forms - ice, water, and steam. God is the father, son, and holy spirit. The point of this is to understand that each serves a different function
Father is the creator and Moral law giver, and the final judge
Jesus is the mediator between Father and Human - a way in which Humans can reach the Father (by adopting his ethics and living as he did)
The spirit is the omnipresent being within us all, the "fragment of divinity" as marcus aurelius says - to which gives us morality, a conscious etc.
But this is just my perspective. Hope that helps
>>70869287
>CARM.org
>gotquestions.org
These two websites should be extremely useful to you. Especially gotquestions.
Type each of your questions into their search bar.
1. Yes.
2. The body is made in the image of God, mind is crafted and created by the world; (cultural conditioning and what not. All human beings have same basic body structure built from the same blueprint, with rare genetic anomalies in those blueprints from time to time. All very different minds, though, hence anger, wrath, etc.)
3. Agency, first and foremost, is man's right. This means man chooses to do WHATEVER he wants to do, no restriction. IE if I take a knife and go stab my neighbor to death, God will not stop me because it is my agency to do so. The consequences of such actions are, of course, beyond my control, but I have full control over choice.
4. First part ties in with agency. He won't removed man's freedom to save even his own son from physical torment. Second part, no man is perfect. All of us make a mistake from time to time, so if Christ had not borne the weight of our sins, we would all be damned. If a man robs a convenience store, he is punishable for that, even if he donated ten million dollars to charity.
5. He wouldn't. This is where certain christian beliefs begin to differ; my denomination's belief says that all men are saved through the grace of Christ, some sooner than others based on conduct here on Earth.
6. God is God. He can do whatever the heck he wants. He could have ten thousand literal sons if he liked.
7. Yes, God the Father, his son Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost. No, they're three separate beings, as shown in Christ's baptism, where God spoke from heaven and the Holy Ghost lighted on Jesus's shoulder in the form of a dove.
Hope that helps! Enjoy!
>>70869287
Orthodox Christianity:
>1)If jesus is also god you believe that humans killed and tortured god on earth
Yes
>2)you believe you are made in the image of god, what does this mean? Like your nose, eyes, body or in our minds, like anger, wrath, envy, evil thoughts, weakness
Spiritual. He was created that way but fell and sins settled in. Man was created to forever become more and more godlike until he surpassed even angels but never reaching the God as God is unreachable. Man was created with the task to “reflect” God in creation; to make His presence, His will and His powers spread throughout the universe; to transform all that exists into the paradise of God
>3)Why should god just watch as we torture and kill his son? Why set him through all this torture and not just give him a heartinfact or something like that?
Jesus is God. He sacrifice is not to appease angry God (Catholics and their later branches) but to save us from the sin. His sacrifice is for us to learn not for God to stop being angry.
>4)Why should it be neccessary that gods son is treated so misarble for us to be saved? Why not just save the people who live good lives and listen to god?
#3
>5)Why should god send good and rightouness living people to hell only they didnt belive that he had a son?
God doesn't send you to hell. Jesus trumpled Death with his death. Everyone lives forever in the presence of God. Righteous ppeople will enjoy it, shitty ppl will fill His resence as everlasting torment as their sins keep them from being able to join His eternal love
>6)How did god get a son? Had he a wife? Created he just a human and declared him as his son?
He was born
>7)Whats up with this trinity? !One! God, but he is actually a father, a son and a holy ghost?
Yeah, one God. Three divine persons who share one essence. Why, who knows, that's how the God decided to reveal himself
>>70884760
Yeah you're right about that.
We're safe here because most of the Muslims here are sane people.
If they're insane they'll keep burning our Churches even if we turn our other cheek that time.
And I'm pretty sure most of those Muslim refugee in Europe are insane people though.
And also we're dominated by Muslims because they came from Arab merchants, while Christianity came from Dutch Empire which most local people hate at the time.
Also many people who converted to Islam today are dumb and insane people(usually the famous one), because we're no longer persecuted.
>>70885773
>And I'm pretty sure most of those Muslim refugee in Europe are insane people though.
Yeah, they rape, murder and pillage in every European country that took them.
Luckily, my country won't take them in (they don't even want to stay because they don't get as much free shit as they would in Germany).
>>70885516
>He sacrifice is not to appease angry God (Catholics and their later branches)
I don't know what you're talking about. This isn't what we believe.
Our view is that his sacrifice is twofold: (a), that we may see the extent of God's love and mercy for men, and (b) that the debt accrued by our sin might be paid of, because that task was beyond our own ability.
(a) By enduring torture, humiliation, and death for our sake it is made clear to the human mind to what extent our Lord loves us.
(b) This point isn't about an "angry" God, but a just God. There must be a price for sin because God is just, and justice demands consequences for evil. Christ became our collective sin offering, the unblemished lamb by whose blood we were unshackled from the bondage of sin. In this way we not only understand the necessity for paying "every last farthing," but we also see the fulfillment of the laws of the Israelites through Christ.
>>70869287
Are you still here OP? The reason Jesus was sent to the earth was to save the world of sins. How did God had a son? Jesus was already with God when the world was created. It was in the Book of Genesis chapter one. Most of your question you are asking are prophecies in the bible. I wish I could explain the questions with you in person. Most of the responses here are trolly.
>>70869287
In response to 1,3,4: Adam and Eve betrayed God when the ate the fruit of knowledge. This betrayal was so great that Adam and Eve could not repay it, but it needed to be repaid. Jesus is the one to repay that debt since he is man, allowing humanity to repay the debt, and being divine, allowing the debt to repaid in whole. Jesus is the last bloody sacrifice, which is why Christianity doesn't circumcise or kill animals like the Jews did.
>>70886207
>they don't even want to stay because they don't get as much free shit as they would in Germany
LOL sometimes it feels great living in not so rich country eh.
>>70886294
It seems that he's satisfied with >>70873476's answer.
Not sure if he's still here or not.
1) "We" did not kill and torture God on Earth. Some people most of us are likely not related to by blood or name did
doubt God would hold it against their descendants.
2) The ability to reason and create; doubt we at all resemble whatever God is, physically speaking.
3) He clearly had an S&M phase that culminated in the New Testament.
4) Maybe God felt bad about all that Old Testament shit and wanted to remind Mankind that God loved them.
5) Very doubtful that a righteous man would be sent to hell.
6) Ey bb u wan sum fug ~mist as it impregnated the Virgin Mary
7) Imagine being the CEO of McDonalds, KFC and Taco Bell all at the same time, except instead of any of that gutter shit you're actually the CEO of the Universe, Mankind and Morality.
>>70869287
>1)If jesus is also god you believe that humans killed and tortured god on earth
ok
>2)you believe you are made in the image of god, what does this mean? Like your nose, eyes, body or in our minds, like anger, wrath, envy, evil thoughts, weakness
I think that was referring to our soul being eternal or something.
>3)Why should god just watch as we torture and kill his son? Why set him through all this torture and not just give him a heartinfact or something like that?
His son had the choice not to be crucified. Also, I think it would be a sin to stop someone from expressing pure love.
>4)Why should it be neccessary that gods son is treated so misarble for us to be saved? Why not just save the people who live good lives and listen to god?
I don't know. Mysterious ways, I guess.
>5)Why should god send good and rightouness living people to hell only they didnt belive that he had a son?
Look into the Eastern Orthodox's view of hell, it's pretty interesting.
>6)How did god get a son? Had he a wife? Created he just a human and declared him as his son?
He begot the Word. The Word entered into a human body, and become Jesus.
>7)Whats up with this trinity? !One! God, but he is actually a father, a son and a holy ghost?
There is only one God, however the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are all God, so we have to assume God is three in one.
>>70869287
>Serious question to Christian people
>>70869287
1)If jesus is also god you believe that humans killed and tortured god on earth
>Yes, that is the point.
2)you believe you are made in the image of god, what does this mean? Like your nose, eyes, body or in our minds, like anger, wrath, envy, evil thoughts, weakness
>The soul is made in the image of God, what comes from the soul is also from God
3)Why should god just watch as we torture and kill his son? Why set him through all this torture and not just give him a heartinfact or something like that?
>Christ died and descended into Hell and rose again to suffer for the sins of humanity, His sacrifice saved the souls of everyone who died after Him.
4)Why should it be neccessary that gods son is treated so misarble for us to be saved? Why not just save the people who live good lives and listen to god?
>Man bears sin from when he is born, Christ redeemed that sin through His suffering.
5)Why should god send good and rightouness living people to hell only they didnt belive that he had a son?
>They don't go to Hell if they're actually good, it's called apostolic baptism though protestcucks deny this as it makes them feel better about living in so much sin.
6)How did god get a son? Had he a wife? Created he just a human and declared him as his son?
>There's thousands of years of mysticism and theology on this and it's what the Kabbalah is concerned with. There's a reason it's called a Divine mystery.
7)Whats up with this trinity? !One! God, but he is actually a father, a son and a holy ghost?
>Again, there's a reason it's called a mystery.
>>70869287
1) Yes
2) Physically and spiritually, but the image is not exact
3) To satisfy the end of the law, there is a punishment affixed. Instead of us suffering that punishment, Christ suffered it for us so that he can extend us mercy.
4) God can't go back on his word, thus point 3
5) Because all make mistakes and fall short of the glory of god. Without accepting Christ's atonement, no matter how good you are, you still have sinned.
6) My denomination believes he has a wife.
7) Bullshit Catholics made up 300 years after Christ to confuse the people to hold onto the control they had. If God is mysterious and unknown, they would have to go to them. Unscriptural.
>>70871666
You're a special kind of retard aren't you?
>>70877974
God transcends even existence and our limited powers of conception and rationality. God is the ground of being.
>>70886214
>(b) This point isn't about an "angry" God, but a just God. There must be a price for sin because God is just, and justice demands consequences for evil. Christ became our collective sin offering, the unblemished lamb by whose blood we were unshackled from the bondage of sin. In this way we not only understand the necessity for paying "every last farthing," but we also see the fulfillment of the laws of the Israelites through Christ.
Yeah, that is pretty much what I thought, maybe I used words angry God too rashly, i'm sorry, but in any way it's a judgmental God at least :)
We don't believe ppl inherit sins, not even Adam's, it's his sin only. We inherited the ability to commit sins, and as babies bumping left and right we do them all the time. And our Father reached down and shown us how to walk. That's a main thing we get from His sacrifice, a way how to improve ourselves, not a sense that some debt to God has been repaid.
>>70869287
>>70870063
I gotcha, senpai.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rPOrAxGXFno
