Why is /pol/ so anti-union? is there any legitimate reason for not getting together with your fellow workers and demanding more money and better conditions?
Could it possibly be true that..../pol/ isn't one person?
No, that's ridiculous. Forget I said anything
>>77165364
Unions demand higher wages for their employees, which means higher prices.
HIGHER PRICES
>>77165585
Don't buy stuff then jfc.
>>77165585
Prices go up every year, wages don't. Who do you think is pocketing the difference?
>>77165364
At the expense of everyone else
>>77165364
Most union bosses are mafia members.
>>77165364
They mainly only protect the political power structure of said union. They give the scraps leftover to the workers to feel like they accomplished something. Union leaders are scum.
t. union member
>>77165905
Are you a time-traveler from the 70s? or just watch Fox News a lot?
>>77166032
actually unions are one of the only things the mafia has control over anymore
>>77166109
You're surely not serious?
>>77165364
private sector should be allowed to unionise at will, not the public sector who is paid by tax dollars
sure firefighters, policemen and teachers are necessary and should be well compensated but there are also thousands of bludging office """"workers"""" employed by the government who literally sit on their arse all day not giving two shits about anything but would jump at the chance to unionise and increase their pay
>>77165585
>demand higher wages
often, you will make less with a union, but you end up with more benefits.
>>77165550
stop talking crazy
>>77165585
they've been busting unions in Michigan and the prices are not dropping
the executive pay keeps going up though
go union!
>>77166194
> should be well compensated
How is this guaranteed without unions?
>>77165364
>is there any legitimate reason for not getting together with your fellow workers and demanding more money and better conditions
there is
it's called the fact that we already have worker protection laws and you can personally negotiate wages or find a different job you fucking commie
>>77165364
I don't mind unions on a fundamental level. They actually have quite a lot of good benefits. I'm all for people banding together to look out for the workers, protect their people from getting fired over trivial bullshit (such as posting problematic messages on their facebook pages) etc.
the problem is that they easily become corrupt self-feeding tumors.
Let's take the teacher's union for example. They constantly scream about how teachers aren't getting paid enough (which is bullshit) and how schools need more funding to bring up their test scores. This second point is bullshit, because study after study has shown that there is no correlation between school funding and academic success. We pump more money into education, and we get nothing out of it. All it does is line the teachers union's pockets. And lastly, they'll claim bullshit like "we need to havfe smaller classrooms for more individualized teaching so the students do better". This once again doesn't have any bonus in terms of education, and they only want smaller classrooms because smaller classrooms means more teachers are needed.
I guess if I had to put my foot down somewhere, I'd say that you shouldn't be allowed to have unions for public sector jobs.
Look at all the good unions did to this once great city.
Now its full of niggers that destroy whats left of the rubble.
>In a labor union
>Managers don't say anything to new employee's about it
>The older guys don't give a shit because they're all retiring this year
>Take all the new people out for lunch one day
>Explain to them that they're in a union
>Explain to them that they're basically unfireable
>Go into communist rhetoric about how they need to stay together and keep the boot of the bourgeoisie off their necks.
>Watch another batch of managers get fired because they can't control the staff.
Unionizing a resort was a horrible idea, but I'm loving every second of it.
>>77165364
I'm pro-union but these unions need to be held responsible when their demands are met and the industry suffers as a result. Stop bitching to the govt about everything.
unions also corrupt politics and basically only exist to further liberal agendas
>>77165364
If you have ever worked with incompetent union members that can never be fired you'll have your answer.
>>77166245
democracy, if the government is not providing adequate emergency services they would not get votes
>>77165364
1. Unions protect those who deserve to be fired, look at NYC teachers for proof that you can pretty much be terrible at your profession, and instead of punishment, you'll end up being paid your salary to sit in a room with other fuck-up educators for 8 hours/day doing nothing productive but still getting paid. Dig into the famous "rubber rooms" of NYC educators to find out more about this nonsense.
2. As others said, unions are primarily about protecting the union power structure. Why is it "fair" that a union boss gets paid a few hundred thousand dollars to sit in an office all day while those who do the actual work get the scraps of what the bosses negotiate?
3. Unions (primarily public sector) tend to rape the taxpayer over and over on costs. It is NOT worth paying someone far beyond their value and giving them a fat pension for life for doing a terrible job, but that's what unions do. There are bus drivers here in Wisconsin (Madison, to be precise) that are making over $100k/year DRIVING A FUCKING BUS. They're also getting pensions after a number of years that will ensure that they get that salary after retirement until the day they die. So, they're overpaid, don't need to do the best job possible, and their legacy will cost the taxpayers shitloads of money long after they've stopped contributing entirely, all because in the public sector, there's no checks and balances, typically, whatever the unions demand, the powers that be will capitulate to and give them no matter how unreasonable.
Basically, it's saying that SOME people can band together for special rights and protections that the rest aren't afforded. Now, I'm no leftists, but doesn't that whole concept fly directly in the face of leftist ideals? You be the judge, but it sure as shit seems fucking retarded from a non-union worker's perspective.
>>77166373
Worker protection laws are constantly eroded in right-to-work states by business lobbying government. Without unions, they would surely be eliminated entirely.
>>77166590
That is ridiculous, unless emergency service employees made up the entirety of the electorate.
>>77165364
Unions were useful 80 years ago and they fulfilled their purpose. Nowadays unions are corrupt, outdated, and obsolete. Inions are the reason shit gets made overseas or in areas that are anti-union. You think Toyota or Honda will ever build a plant in Michigan? Not a chance.
You usually make less money in unions since you have union dues, unions give certain people power, like workplace politicians, who end up being corrupt and playing favorites.
With unions you cannot get rid of bad employees, just talk to anyone in a inion, especially UAW, from my experience. Inions do not reward good work ethic or behavior and make you work as slow as the shittiest employee.
Modern unions are a cancer.
t. Someone that was in a union as a working college student and grew up around the auto industry.
>>77165364
There's a huge difference between public sector and private sector unions.
Private sector unions take a $12 an hour job and turn it into a $30 an hour job. The cost of this is passed on to the consumer.
>>77166605
On point 2, why doesn't that apply to company bosses as well? union bosses do the same sort of higher-level work.
>>77165364
They have things that I don't have (health insurance, paid vacation time, the ability to collectively bargain for higher wages and better treatment, sometimes even a pension). Instead of fighting to improve my own situation so that I might also have those things, I'm going to instead drag everyone else down to my level.
>>77166831
Can you give me an example of where that has happened?
>>77166646
>Worker protection laws are constantly eroded
cite an example
>>77166946
look at the public schools with special directors that have inflated salaries
>guise we need a new office for diversity
>oh also the wages for this director will be $300k/yr with full benefits
>budget goes to ballot
>do you want to spend more on education goyim?
>PASSED!
>>77166194
>private sector should be allowed to unionise at will, not the public sector who is paid by tax dollars
Public sector in the USA is pretty much ALL unionized, so guess why Americans typically fucking hate unions so much?
Private sector, if workers want to organize, all fine, but as an employer myself, I'd simply have to tell them I'm already paying them the most I can (which is true, my margins are being turned to shit, and I've taken multiple pay cuts to not have to drop hours on my staff or make any cuts to them), and if they didn't understand this fact, I'd fire them immediately for thinking they were being screwed over when in reality, they have it better than most people would give them.
There are limits to what every business can do for those who work for it. Unions typically do not concern themselves with operating costs, margins, overhead of various other expenses, etc. and see everything from a myopic "YOU OWE ME MORE BECUZ I WORK FOR YOU!" bullshit that makes them hated far and wide.
If unions hadn't overstepped their bounds so much this past century, maybe it wouldn't be this way, but they have, and that's why they're loathed by pretty much anyone who isn't a liberal or who doesn't belong to a union already.
>>77165364
>>77166873
A company boss is actively managing his business.
A union boss is just a rent-seeker. He contributes nothing of value.
>>77166961
RIGHT
TO
WORK
GROWING
NUMBER
OF
AT-WILL
STATES
>>77165364
Unions ruin job flexibility and wage flexibility. They also behave as lobbies. They pursue their particular interests. They are no more different than Bilderberg or any masonic lobby.
>>77165364
I'm not anti-union. I'm anti-union for people who get paid by tax dollars. Unions are necessary to secure labor rights in capitalism and part of the right to assemble.
>>77166178
It's especially true in Australia, dingus. Construction industry especially. Ask any builder that's had to build something larger than a house.
>>77167151
for private sector
look at the west coast with them all adjusting to new minimum wage hikes
they all receive wage increases to make up the difference and get cash for time spent in negotiation (almost a month's free wages)
>>77167191
Union boss actively manages his union including staff and usually overseeing union efforts toward negotiations.
Literally no different kek, except you morally approve of one but not the other for literally no logical reason.
Someone post the pic with the fat Union chief with the gold watches, rings and the cuban cigar
>>77167315
CFMEU is not a mafia, m8, they look out for their workers that is all.
>>77167223
Flexibility for whom? surely not the worker.
>>77166178
It's true. Mafia has mostly moved into white collar crime these days. Controlling the Union bosses is one of the few areas they've kept from their roots.
>>77167196
>growing number of at-will states
which states have changed recently?
>lets also keep ignoring all the other protection laws
>>77165364
Being pro union MAKES NO FUCKING SENSE. I AM PRO GROUPS OF PEOPLE HURR DURRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR
>>77166605
Unions are good. Do not be mad at Unions because US companies are shit and do not increase pay. Also most teachers in Indiana stopped receiving pay raises a few years ago and the whole state is unsure why there is a teacher shortage.
Unions are good but people who are not in Unions have been tricked into thinking that they are bad because the rest of society has been fucked with no pay increases for years.
Really people just hate unions because they do not understand how shitty most corporations are. I am sure the federal reserve is also to blame and the jews.
>>77166946
All you have to do is compare the wages across different states. Some states have a strong union presence and other are "right to work" states. Unions disrupt the natural market conditions in a fundamental way by paying workers a greater wage than the market would normally allow.
>>77166386
Agreed. I considered work as a union member, but mostly just because the healthcare thing was nice, as well as 401k etc. If you're a contractor type person, a steady source of healthcare is a good thing.
But as you said, they can quickly go to shit too.
>>77167378
Ok, buddy. As I said, ask any builder or foreman if they've ever had to produce a brown paper bag for "safety inspectors" sent on behalf of the union that threaten to close a job site based on no evidence for weeks, while they go through everything to ensure it's safe.
>>77167623
And? why is that a bad thing? or are you so arrogant and ignorant that you think your preferred system is the only 'correct' one?
>>77166109
I thought they still controlled garbage disposal
>>77166875
They have those because they are prohibiting you from working there because you're not kin.
>>77167743
what's wrong with at-will employment?
>>77167706
If they stop work without protection order from Fair Work, they are not protected and can be sued. The employer can also apply to have an order to resume work and fire them if they don't.
See how the facts don't tally up with your anti-union rhetoric?
>>77167791
Your entire knowledge of unions is based off watching The Sopranos, isn't it?
>>77165364
Good idea. Look at American auto industry. They are doing very well with strong unions.
>>77167352
>Union boss actively manages his union including staff and usually overseeing union efforts toward negotiations.
Here's the question - why does a "union boss" get to determine what's needed when he's not out on the floor doing the work to know the validity of whatever he thinks needs to be done? Why do the workers not elect one of their own as the "leader" and work together to determine their supposed needs instead of delegating it to someone who takes a ton of whatever they negotiate for and who doesn't have to do the work themselves?
Again, that's why many don't like unions. I don't want to deal with some entitled faggot who makes $150k+/year sitting in his office writing up demands to throw at employers when he contributes NOTHING of value?
At least the unionized workers are working, a union boss who is not on the line himself is human excrement who should be discarded immediately for the greater good.
>>77165364
KILLS THE CONTRACTOR, PROTECTS INCOMPETENT SCUM, YOU'VE NEVER HAD A REAL JOB, HAVE YOU BOY?
>>77168072
Lol, everything you say applies to any company boss.
>>77167419
The worker has the right to be represented by a union but unions must distance themselves from the socialist model of the 20th century.
They must start to behave more reasonably and listen to the executives (public or private) when cost cuts are needed and structural reforms are needed. Freezing wages and impossibility to fire are their main objectives. It's lobbying. Unions must be disbanded and new, regulated ones must be formed.
>>77167743
The beauty of capitalism is that it puts consumers first. Unions don't exist for the welfare of the consumer but for the producers. Putting the consumer first makes capitalism inherently difficult, but it works beautifully. Unions did great work decades ago, but since then the economy has changed. An industrial economy is much different than the service-information based economy of the modern era. Unions, at least as they are currently operating and devised, are ill equipped to benefit consumers OR producers today.
>>77165364
I'm anti-union because I'm in a fucking union.
>about 6% of my pay goes towards a group of shitheads whose sole purpose for existence is causing trouble every couple of years.
They've literally done nothing to help with our pay or working conditions. They don't want to have us 100% happy or have no problems because if that were to happen they'd be out of a fucking job.
The only thing I'm happy about is that they can't fire you for not going on strike with them. Best two months of my life was flipping those shit heads the bird while I scabbed my dick off making double time while they shivered in the cold for a 1% pay increase.
Fuck unions.
I hate unions because they enable the delusional notion that workers are entitled to greater compensation when productivity rises due solely to the owner's capital investment. If the productivity or profitability is not attributable to an increase in your contribution, fuck off - you don't deserve a dime of it.
>>77167743
Forcing employers to pay more than market price for employees results in them employing less people. Net result is unemployment for less qualified people, who are usually the groups that will be hurt the most.
>>77168205
Ahahahaha
It is NOT the job of workers to subsidize business losses and then sit by while executives make a lot of money during the good times, idiot.
>>77168375
So it is now the job of employees to literally give money from their own pocket so that their employer can take on more people? essentially you want us to put everyones wage into a communal bucket and then spread it equally to hire more people? silly goose.
>>77165364
>union
Unions are outdated. Yelp-like sites/platforms for profession-oriented communication are much more effective in that area.
The teachers union is concerned only about protecting teachers, no matter how shitty they may be. The union doesn't give a flying fuck about giving kids a quality education, they exist soley to cater to teachers self interests. Source: my wife is a vice principal of a public middle school
IF IT'S GOOD ENOUGH FOR PETE IT'S GOOD ENOUGH FOR ME
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9XEnTxlBuGo
if you ever tried to get a job welding/trucking basically any type of blu collar work you'd know why unions are cancerous.
>if you want to become a dock worker you need to obtain permission from me and my friends.
>we only issue a new certificate when a dock worker dies of old age, and we will issue it to his firstborn son, because that's how we choose to do things
>there are only 800 valid certificates in a country of 40 million
>each certificate holder makes 10k (USD) a month in a country where most people make 20k a year because there's so few of them and demand is so high
>if you show up at our offices and ask to take out exams we will laugh in your face and tell you to fuck off.
>if you try to learn our trades on your own and practice without our certificate, we will call the police and arrest you for Usurpation of Titles, Degrees and Honors (a federal crime on the same level as child molestation)
>>77168454
You do write like a middle-class socialist college student who thinks the average 'executive' makes shitloads of cash exploiting the worker.
Accountants know how to manage costs and corporate structure. Workers do not.
Work is not a right, it's a privilege. If one is disposable it's his fault.
Companies that are submissive to Unions become less competitive and eventually bankrupt because workers wanted muh privilege and muh high pay.
>>77167743
Forced redistribution of wealth is not a good thing. Union power comes mostly from government force and preferential treatment. Funny how antitrust law only works one way re: monopolies.
>>77168614
You're implying that employees are somehow deserving of that artificial extra wage that is imposed by unions.
>>77168850
I'm strictly talking about first-world countries, sorry Argie, no offence intended.
>>77165364
Unions are not necessary in a socialist nanny state. People pushing for unions generally also support more welfare and bigger government. It's redundant and kills the economy.
>>77168850
This. Exactly this. Private sector unions fuck with the market in a way that isn't beneficial to consumers.
>>77168981
>Work is not a right, it's a privilege.
This is the mentality of union-bashing rightards.
>>77169031
Why not? who is more deserving, the company boss? absolutely not.
You 'deserve' whatever you can achieve.
>>77169109
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ly5ZKjjxMNM
>>77169043
I' read the exact same complaint on this board from Australians trying to get into the trades.
I fucking hate unions. I'm in management and unions complain and threaten to grieve over the most pedantic shit. The only thing unions have that is worth a shit is seniority.
Having unions automatically creates an Us vs Them mentality which is cancer in the work place. I just want you to do your goddamn job safely, I don't want to cheat you out of money.
Look at what happened over here with the miners and thousands of other unions before Thatcher sorted the mess out.
>bin men strikes
>blackouts due to miner strikes
>gravedigger strikes
>blockades in front of hospitals
>no fuel due to driver strikes
>general strikes that brought the country to a halt
Just look up the Winter of Discontent to see why unions need to be kept in check
>>77169157
But he's right. Who are you to demand work when someone doesn't want to hire you? You think that just because you were pushed out of your mom and survived long enough that you should be magically endowed with a paying wage?
Fuck off.
>>77169157
Yes, tell me how and why being employed by someone is a right and not a privilege granted by that someone.
It's not right wing left wing you tard live in the past. It's common sense.
We don't live in the early 20th century when workers died every day. Grow up.
>>77165364
Unions are not part of capitlaism. There is nothing voluntary about them even when all of their members have joined of their own free will. Unions are the one thing that prevents me from going full ancap. The market can only function if there is a small state that can help coerce workers and prevent them from revolting over stupid shit.
>>77165364
Union members are retards to a tee, being used as a voting force to keep labour relevant while at the same time being corrupt to the core and apposed to actually achieving anything for their workers since muh labour
They come to worksites try to unionise and threaten to stop work and bring their bikie mates along for intimidation.
They are complete scum, lefty organisations that are as corrupt as the fucking Saudi's.
Ever wonder why Trudeau just changed the need to show where union money is being spent as well as opening other processes of corruption.
>join the union goy
>we're for your rights hehe
>>77169308
Closed shops have been banned in Australia since the 80s, famalam, try to keep up with your bait knowledge.
>>77169299
What time is it Koalaville? Aren't you up early?
>>77169358
>I'm in management
Nuff said, opinion disregarded.
>>77169222
You literally have no argument and your positions are contradictory.
>>77165364
Unions artificially inflate wages beyond their worth
>>77169519
>>77169460
Employment is simply selling your labour to somebody, and you have the right to assemble with your fellow workers to control and withhold your labour to extract more money and better conditions
It is as free market as it gets, famalam.
>>77167863
They can still kick up enough stink to delay construction by a day or week. On large job sites, that's tens of thousands of dollars. It's also incredibly easy to find safety infractions on a large construction site (usually because one cunt insisted on not wearing a helmet, which he'll then claim was never inducted or given to him) Investigations = closed job site while they work out if you're innocent or not.
I'm union and make 5 times what my nonunion counterparts do. I also work for the Illinois Department of Motor Vehicles.
Guess what? There's nothing you can do about it unless you move to Michigan or Wisconsin.
>>77169775
Yeah, but nobody has to buy your body. No one owes you work in exchange for money.
>>77169648
>Aussie
nuff said, opinion disregarded
>>77165364
Technically the teachers are destroying the economy by teaching marxist drivel nowadays, so that's accurate at least.
>>77169782
That's not true, they can hold a stop-work meeting for a short time if they have serious safety concerns however they cannot stop work for a day or a week over it, it would not be protected industrial action.
Even the WHS Rep can not order a stop-work unless its a major safety infraction. If one exists, work SHOULD be stopped. And the supervisors should be picking up on someone not wearing a hardhat onsite.
>>77169977
They don't, but they will. :)
>>77169546
assuming the supply of labor is constant over time either all professions unionize in some form, or they automate and the people that run them become professionals. This process can be circumvented by importing workers
what's really funny is that the AFL keeps endorsing democrats that have been throatfucking them raw since NAFTA, and yet they do nothing because most of the bosses are retards that can barely tie their own shoes
>>77169775
Famlam you have all the rights to do it, but the employer must have all the rights to fire you all and offshore the plant in India.
You Unions want all the cake, you want to prevent the mgmt to take measures and you put accountants in risky positions.
You hinder competitiveness. You must be sound minded and economically literate or you end up firing yourself forcing your firm to bankrupt because of a lack of competitiveness and cost flexibility.
>>77167378
Lol I bet your the bloke sweeping up after all the non union tradesmen,
I'm an electrician and I did a deal to contract to a company doing apartments
> get paid for fitting off
>$7 per power outlet takes 2 minutes each
>$10 for ceiling fans takes 4minutes to do
It all goes in the family trust to reduce the shit out of tax and I also sort my own super.
If you need a sweaty union wog to organise your life go straight ahead, but im good
>>77165364
>mfw get caught after using my union card for 10 years of prosties, blow and jd
Just a once off, not illegal!!!!
>vote labour goy
Son un lastre
>>77171024
Sweet as bro, I'm not mad that you're non-union. Why do you care if I'm union? Also the ETU or their friends will roll on your ass sooner or later.
>>77166827
Please please please stop sucking the rich mans cock. Unions are NOT the reason. Getting a bigger profit and "infinite expansion" is why shit is made over seas. I work in a union ship yard. Not only do I have better benefits, we have extensive training programs to gain more skills, AND I make at least 300 more a month than a non union shipbuilder. We have amazing safety measures in what is a pretty dangerous industry.
>>77170074
>they cannot stop work for a day or a week
Then, whatever it calls itself, it's not a union.
The defining features of unions are collective bargaining and strikes. If they won't stop work to get what they want, it's not a union.
>>77172147
In Australia, the union has to apply for permission to strike before it is 'protected' meaning no risk of being sued/fired/locked out etc
If they don't apply and just strike, they can be sued/fired/locked out.
>>77168197
Nope, totally incorrect. I help with everything from the shit that keeps my business running to taking out the trash when my employees are too busy to do it.
Basically, you're showing your envy for the fact that you trust a union boss, but don't trust the person who built the company, took the financial risk, and keeps the whole system flowing to ensure everyone stays employed.
Without the union boss, the company runs just fine. Without the ownership ensuring the doors stay open, everyone is on the streets. If that's beyond your grasp, then I'm guessing you're a union boss yourself.
>>77165364
Because I live in the San Fagcisco bay and public unions have ruined public transportation.
I'm looking at you, BART.
>>77169157
AUS proves it has no idea of the difference between rights and privileges. Good to know so that nobody wastes time trying to debate you in any capacity from this point forward if simple concepts prove to be this challenging.
>>77167168
See you're a different boss, if what you've said is true, then you've done everything you can to give what you can to your employers. All across this fucking country, employees are taking hits and cuts while the bosses bonus gets even bigger. A funny story is a place I worked last year and got laid off from. The company lost a huge customer, and that customer owes us. However, the company had the biggest backlog of work EVER in their history even with losing that customer. I have a friend who is the IT business analyst for the company. They opened up our contract early and told us we had to take a 6% pay cut, benefits cuts, and go to 12 hour mandatory shifts. Well we voted no the first time ( teamsters union ), then they laid a bunch of us off ( myself included ), and they brought the same contract to the table again. Well it passed because the only people left were the old guys who were riding it out until retirement. Well after all the lay offs and the new shit contract, the CEO, Vice President, the "second" Vice President, HR manager, and productions manager ALL got nice bonuses. So that's one of my experiences.
I also loved when they moved from New England, to Tennessee because they thought they could hire non union tungsten machinists, for 13 an hour. Well needless to say that machine shop didn't last for even a year and they brought the machines back here and re hired the union guys who actually knew what they were doing.
>>77167247
I'm glad someone sees this. You literally need them to balance out capitalism
>>77165364
>Teachers unions
>Not producing idiots and ruining the economy
Pick one.
>>77169870
Good for you. Solidarity. Why anyone who isn't rich is anti-union is beyond me, some serious capitalist brainwashing.
>>77165364
> state unions
Nice b8 there
>>77165364
http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/victoria/construction-workers-building-up-big-fortunes-in-victorias-unionised-workforce/news-story/bbbedbd3ebd02af1b11c9c199850bcd2
Unions: fine. They negotiate on behalf of a large group of people in order to provide uniform regulations and generally smooth-over things that only members of certain occupations know to be serious problems for them.
Forced unions: Disgusting. Taxation of individuals by private entities, inefficiently and corruptly siphoning money into pockets that cannot be legitimate if they cannot convince people to pay but can only FORCE them to.
>>77165364
Strawman harder. Do you ever hear conservatives bitch about police or firefighter unions? Even the conservatives I know that say public sector unions should be banned usually have an exception for police and firefighters. Teachers on the other hand are a great example of why unions, especially public sector unions, are awful. They aren't 'heroes' in any meaningful sense of that word, they do provide a vital serious to society but so do gas station attendends and they aren't heroes either. Teaching is just a cushy job that they get paid way to much for and they don't respond to market forces because its a public sector union. Even in my province (BC) we pay teachers less than most other provinces in Canada and even here we have way more teachers than we need and they get paid more than private school teachers.
I am a Mosleyite Fascist and would consider myself pro-union.
Just not the kind of hyper-autistic big-brother corp unions we have here in the United States.
but workers should be allowed to organize and pressure their employers for good working conditions, healthy and fair wages, etc.
>>77165364
I have no problem with unions, generally.
I think public sector unions should be outlawed.
>>77172482
You sound like a small or medium sized business owner. Look at companies like GE for example. One of the biggest most successful companies there is and they are into so many different industries. Who in GE "took the risk" oh that's right a man who is long dead. I took a job machining at GE, and in a long time union man. I figured eh why not try GE even though this particular shop was non union. Well, in the hiring process they force you to write an essay on why it's important to not unionize and why we "need" community wages. Community wage is when GE pays you what other similar jobs in YOUR area in which you live would pay. So essentially you could go be a machinist for GE, or Joes small local shop. And make the same thing. Even though one is making more than the other could ever dream of. I worked there for 3 weeks until I found another job that could pay me over 5 an hour more with better benefits. Also I didn't like that GE hired me for one job, then my first day they pulled a quick one a literally put me button pressing aka VMC operator. In your case YOU took the risk and you clearly put a lot of work into this business. But I think with large corporations unions are good.
I hate mandatory unions. Working with dregs and natives are why government projects are over budget and past deadlines. You think Trumps in a union?
>>77173606
If you don't want to be union though, don't work in a union work place. The company and union both agree to hire union labor at that specific company. It's like if the work schedule is 3 on 3 off but you want to work a normal Monday through Friday, well sorry we don't do that here
>>77166245
If you do your job and don't call your boss a nigger you'll be ok. Plus, I hate who they associate with. I have teacher and factory working family, they routinely get mail saying vote NDP
>>77165364
The have nots don't want anyone else to have anything. Unions fight for fair wages. You /pol/ neets should fight your own fight, not bitch at what others accomplish.
>>77175028
It's easy to hate on unions though, it's better to complain and be in comfort with no action taking rather than talk to a union and organize. Muh god figure bosses tho
>>77174191
>I am a Mosleyite Fascist and would consider myself pro-union.
>>77165364
Unions are good, but public ownership of industry is better.
Police, teachers, and firefighters never stop bitching and asking for more gibs. Cops in Canada make six figures for a job that isn't dangerous at all. Teachers have summers off and work great hours. Firefighters don't do shit. There is a fire like twice a year in my city, tops.
We need mo money for dem pensions!!! Oh lawd, why isn't we being paid as well as professional athletes? We is so stressed we gonna die five years after retiring anyway (made up union lie).
Fuck off.
>>77175824
Kek I know an old bombers linemen that quit to be a cop. Easier physically, better pay. Doug browns a fucking nurse now hahaha
>>77173001
No, unions are a bad solution to the problems that arise through capitalism.
The really distinguishing feature of capitalism is not ownership of chattel goods or even things like buildings, but one-sided, unconditional ownership of things like land, copyrights, and patents, things like portions of nature and the freedom to use ideas, to be managed by the owner for his own private benefit.
The reason employers have power over workers is a surplus of wage-dependent workers on the market. Capitalism only works properly when either everyone owns enough capital to be self-supporting or the market demands more labor than the wage-dependent working class can provide.
If wage-dependent workers with useful capabilities are in a sufficiently bad negotiating position to be unable to individually secure good working conditions, then unions are going to just make the situation worse for the unemployed, while at the same time sapping the system of market rationality.
A surplus of labor clamoring for employment suggests one or more of:
- too many people for the land to support (obviously not the case in the modern world)
- not enough freedom to do and organize productive work (overregulation, too much protection for intellectual property, etc.)
- too much freedom for land-owners to trade minimally-processed products of nature to foreigners rather than exchange them for local labor
- land concentrated in too few, too unambitious hands, redistribution (such as through a progressive property tax) is necessary due to excessive rent collection
>>77165364
Unions are fucking retarded.
The WORST of them all are federal unions, however.
>>77166417
It was niggers that did this not unions, also see Chinese and Mexican labour
Unions are part of the free market
if you hate Unions you are a statist cuck
what I don't like is when the Unions convince the state to enforce their retard rules. In that respect, I am anti-Union. If somebody wants to work for less, let them work for less.
>>77166417
>Look at all the good unions did to this once great city.
Unions didn't do that. Corporate greed did.
>>77176372
Niggers did that
>>77176372
Greed is part of capitalism. Businesses want money. The reason that wages are so low is because there are too many laborers competing. People really don't provide that much value.
>>77176347
>Unions are part of the free market
No they aren't. In a free market it would be exceptionally easy for a company to get more workers in the event of a strike, thus negating the only weapon unions have. Unions can only exist if there is a government that protects them.
>>77165720
Shhhh...
No truth allowed. Go back to working for your overlords.
>>77165364
It's always my shithole of a country with this union crap. Get fucked cunt
>>77165364
They're nothing but state sanctioned organizationed crime.
Also. As some who's had to work with union members during various jobs, the fucking retards and they put in zero effort beyond the minimum. Pain in the ass.
>>77166373
>muh communism
Not an argument.
>>77166417
>what is globalization
>>77177023
>>77168244
>The beauty of capitalism is that it puts consumers first.
No, capitalism put capital owners first, hence the name.
Corporations always try to produce more for less and they always sacrifice quality for profits. They hide flaws, dangerous defects and side effects. Quality declines over time so they build high barriers to prevent competition. they screw over their workers in dozens of ways (wage theft, glass ceilings, arbitration, safety lapses, etc.) They even screw over their shareholders (accounting fraud, deliberate misinformation, false SEC filings, etc.)
>>77174796
>Top Contributors
>(Since 1989)
keks!
>>77165364
Let me share with you a story
>1990's new jersey
>Join IBEW right outta high school
>Make lightswitches for 8$ an hour start
>we had quotas of 300 per day
>I do mine before lunch
>the old fucks in their 60's can barely do a hundred a day
>they read the paper and gossip all day
>get in trouble for working too well
>Shop steward tells me to slow down because that's not how we work here
>19 year old me surrounded by a half-dozen or so senior members in the bathroom
>scared shitless
>told to shape up or get out
>tell my boss
>he says he'll look into
>shop steward snitches on me
>have my shitty 1979 chevy vandalized in the parking lot
>get spat on in the street by a senior member
>told 3 months later that I would be fired by the end of the year from the union
>Fuck it
>The old fucks have been stealing from my bin the entire time
>literally walking past and grabbing handfuls at a time
>noone does shit
>have had enough
>make my 300 before noon and hide them under my desk
>make really shitty switches and leave them out in the open
>improperly glued, sealed, assembled etc
>put those switches in easy reach of the old fucks
>when they come by and grab a handful at a time
>some grin like idiots
>sometimes they thank me for doing their work
>QC begins to realize that the quality has gone downhill
>they investigate and it all leads back to my line
>the old cunts incriminate themselves and admit to stealing switches from me
>QC questions me and I admit they have been stealing from me
>but my switches are perfect everytime they can go look at the ones still in storage
>it checks out
>huge shitstorm ensues
>by the time I left the owners of the factory were suing the union for breach of contract
>factory closed down a few years after that from a fire
Protip guys:
Its Tuesday lunch timehere in spiderland, OP is a NEET shitposter
>>77175475
literally a leaf
>>77165364
Police may be in a union but they don't get to strike.
They're fine.
No comment on firefighters; they seem fine too though.
Teachers though? Awful. Big part of why is that they can strike.
>>77166827
>You usually make less money in unions since you have union dues
Exception would be (non-manufacturing) trade unions. Construction unions do well even in right to work states simply because of their organization. Normal companies would have trouble wrangling 300 craftsmen for a large project but with unions it's more like a military billet.
>>77165364
Unions are for otherwise unemployable niggers and fat tired old dudes. Literally the bottom of the barrel retards
>>77177597
G-d bless you anon, hope you dont get cement shoes from that though.
>>77178181
My company had to sign in for a hydro job and one guy told me to just stop working and watch the door. I have work at home, he didn't.
>>77177764
Pretty sure it's Monday m8
>>77173196
MAKE US ALL THE SAME AND THE WORLD WILL BE SO AWESOME BECAUZE ITLL BE REAL EQUALITY AND NOBODY WILL STARVE AND UTOPIA IS OURS!!!!
t. retarded socialist
>>77178440
Its Tuesday here you monumental fucking retard
>what are timezones
>>77165364
teachers ARE overpaid though. 90% of the time the performance of a school collectively is dependent on the avg. wealth and racial makeup of a community. source; high school student.
>>77178666
Lol u tk 2 da b8
>>77176536
No actually the iron workers union exists and out performs any non union hacks. They know their shit, can move fast as in literally run while working to complete the job, and they do shit right. If you want a high rise built or a bridge, you usually will hire the iron workers union because you know that THEY know what the hell they are doing and pride themselves on getting shit done. Trade unions and labor unions are completely different. A lot of people can't make it in a trade unions. For example being a pipe welder in the UA. You better be under that hood all day welding and those pipe welds need to be flawless otherwise guy who the union foreman won't be offering work too next job? I've seen it with the sheet metal local and the IBEW linemen too. Trade unions leverage to get work is that they are skilled AND can get the job done quick and done right the first time. Why hire some hack contractor whose guys "do it all"?
>>77165364
>>77165364
Because they coerce businesses and fuck up the free market. People stop wanting to open businesses in certain industries and locations because the unions are so powerful and make it impossible to turn a profit. They are anti-business and have been abusing their power for a long time. ESPECIALLY public unions which just cost the taxpayer more money. We got motherfuckers at the EPA making $400k a YEAR for fuck's sake and they CANT BE FIRED
DONT FUCKING TALK TO ME ABOUT UNIONS
FSAFLHSFGLSDHGSDHGLSDHGLDSGX
>>77166646
>>77177032
You don't need special state granted powers to collectively bargain, strike, or any of that shit.
>>77165364
It's Commie bullshit plain and simple
>>77179293
Specifically, laws that force the other 49% of workers to unionize if the 51% of them vote to do so.
>>77165585
No it doesn't t means less profits for the poor billionaires.
>>77179184
MOST of that is bullshit. The iron workers over step their bounds trying to earn shit alot. Tons of electricians around here are quack job drunks. Non union welders have their tickets and work way longer hours. But I'll give you iron workers knowing their shit. They all smoke inside too. Pretty cool guys
>>77167378
Hahahahahahahahahahhahahahahha
Oh wait you're serious.
The CFMEU are a bunch of thugs m80.
They have far too much power and influence and have been shown to be corrupt and funding the labor government. They're a joke
>>77177357
So true and it's happening all over and has been happening
Here's a cool story from the place I got laid off from.
So not only did we machine tungsten and molybdenum we actually made it. We would buy the powder from mine from another country. We would form ingots, heat them, then hit roll them in a mill, then cold roll them. Anyways, one day all the management is bustling around. We find out a potential customer is coming to tour the facility to see our process and how we do things. Our bosses tell us to go around with blue spray paint and paint over any Chinese that is on the barrels from the tungsten and molybdenum powder. Our powered department obviously had most of the barrels but many were scattered throughout the facility to be used for scrap, storage and other miscellaneous things. They had told the customer they were still buying the higher quality powder from Hungary. Which they used to.... Ten years ago. So the customer toured the plant and became a regular account. Not to mention the company actually messed up buying the Chinese powder because now, instead of making ingots, the powder now had to be sifted through a powder sifting machine. ( which they hid under dozens and dozens of stacks of cardboard boxes) the Chinese powder was so shitty you'd literally find all kinds of random bits of trash in it. And they tricked the customer into thinking they are buying a "quality precious metals product" lol
>>77165364
Because it isn't your business, you don't own it. If you don't like working there then fuck off. Unions steal from the workers they claim to represent. By centralizing the workers and businesses they are able to make deals driving competitors out of business. In short unions are stealth socialism.
It could be argued that the teacher is destroying the world one autistic piece of shit at a time.
They are sometimes good, but at the moment they are far too corrupt and cause too many problems to be considered a good thing.
>>77165364
Firefighters earn their money.... teachers don't.
>>77179709
Well I have no clue about Canada but I know it IS NOT bull shit. Trump had that crazy ass building, built buy union iron workers. The one that's all different heights respective to other buildings around it. Also it has to do with the fact that, no one else can really pull together a large number of people at that skill level to do a job. And here in the states, everyone knows there's so many shady contractors out there. There are skilled non union workers I'm not at all saying there aren't but, trade unions only get work for one reason. My co worker whose a pipefitter, was with the UA. His union was the only one nuclear power plants would want inside. With huge projects like power plants and skyscrapers it's usually best to get it done right. id also say that for the iron workers, doing that line of work they deserve that money anyhow.
>>77165364
UAW-Ford member here, my union isnt always perfect, but i support them, except for the fact they seem to be backing hilldawg and not my bpy trump, but a huge majority of us do support trump.
>>77165676
Except, Unions have monopolised their services and will prevent non-union members from working for a lower price.
>>77165720
Useless government bureaucrats that do nothing for anybody.
>>77166386
>Let's take the teacher's union for example...
You know how I know where you're from and that it's where I'm from?
RIP Illinois
>>77180726
My union the IAM supports her but it's logical because the IAM represents many defense contractors and she's gotten A LOT of work for the defense contractors in the past and they are sure she will this time as well. The union will only support the people who keep their guys working so yeah that's happening for the IAM
>>77181050
>my union is hillary level national defence
Well bravo
>>77181050
Fellow IAM bro!
>>77181493
Yo! I've always wondered who else on here is in the IAM!
>>77181213
Hey it's not my choice or my vote. Also the IAM represents many defense contractors and other businesses. Lots of mechanics, airport workers, that kind of thing. Oh and machinists but that's in the name.
I'm a government worker who is only a semi-member of our union (licensed professional, so I'm only eligible for certain benefits such as assisted legal representation).
For the most part, people are clueless as to unions, and it's mostly based on things that happend ages ago.
>they force wages up
Government sector on equal job to private sector is typically lower paying (typically people claim the opposite). Plus the union is no better than essentially a weak lobbies that asks for benefits & wages that still has to be legislatively approved (read: you vote for what you want).
>it lets bad workers stay employed
If bad workers are still employed, that is a management issue. Every institution has the means to fire employees unionized or not, if management can't go through the system they are at fault. Another false belief.
>it doesn't motivate, everyone gets the same wages
This is an issue of motivation not unions. Each worker is motivated differently, and gov't workers are no different. However if rewards are to be offered for performance, performance must be quantifiable or recognizable. Do you base teacher pay off of student grades, do you base firefighter pay for number of calls responded to, do you base police pay off of arrests? All of these factors aren't entirely in the employees control.
I always chuckle when people think unions are the issue. The last stat I heard was 5% of the workforce was unionized, mostly government employees. There are a few industries where unions are powerful (auto for example). For the most part these days, unions are a joke but perpetuated as a threat by the media (both right & left wing).
Source: A lot of fucking reading, life experience, and not /pol/
>>77181928
Fucking right man. People like to jump to "unions are evil!!!1!1!1" without having personal experience or objectively looking at it. ANY company with union workers CAN fire you. Where I currently work, if you get written up for lack of production 3 times you're gone. You get caught sleeping, gone, smoking, you get two warnings. Unions don't want to make themselves look bad by protections people who literally break the rules multiple times and decide they won't listen. With a union you get your fair warnings. Sure maybe some employers would just fire you on the spot but where I've work I've seen many people smarten the hell up when they are on their second lack of production warning.
>>77172084
Unions are almost the ENTIRE reason. And stop sucking the rich man's cock? Should I instead suck the union boss' cock thay sits back and does nothing?
>>77174504
>The company and union both agree
No they literally do not. Unions are by their nature coercive, there is no voluntarism with the state enforced powers they have. You don't need state powers for collective bargaining.
>>77183322
Why is a rich union boss who ensures you better wages some how worse than a rich boss making money off of you. They are both just making money. What's the problem? But hey YOU can go work for lower wages. That's your choice. I'll follow the money. That and the freedom to not work more than 40 hours if I don't feel like it. After working a place where I HAD to work at least a 12 hour shift 6-7 days a week, I'm all about my freedom to say no. Especially if I pay my 40 a month union dues
>>77183641
>Why is a rich union boss who ensures you better wages
But forces me to pay dues or not work. That is called COERCION. Employers can be assholes but they aren't coercive. It's a voluntary exchange, your labor in exchange for its value in money.
>>77183437
The workers talk about organizing. They decide to organize. They write up a labor contract. In the contract it says the company will only employ union labor. You clearly have never been in a union and or enjoy pulling shit out of your ass. I don't get whats so hard to understand. If the employees don't want to unionize then they don't, if the majority does, then they do. And if the company wants to continue to pay shit wages and abuse their power over their employees they usually go to some right to work state or somewhere they can pay people a nice low wage.
>>77183822
You taking an offer of employment at a union employer is voluntary. If your work place wasn't union when you where hired, then organizes and you do not like it, you have the choice to stay and be union or go get another job. There are so many non union jobs out there. Or maybe you're in a right to work state and you don't have to join the union.
>>77165364
I have no issue with Private Unions.
However Public Unions take Taxpayer money. They then lobby public officials who control their salaries and benefits using money from the taxpayers to enhance their own benefits. They are not held accountable.
Just look at California, Detroit, and Dallas. The benefits that the unions have got are going to destroy the cities, be it CALPERS, Detroit Public Fund, or the Dallas Retirement system.
That was the entire situation in Wisconsin. From insurance to benefits the public officials who were supposed to be the Union Watchdogs became their biggest supporters until they banned them.
So Private unions are fine, public unions are not.
FYI, school teachers have some of the biggest potential to fuck children up. Marxism in young minds is dangerous as fuck, whether it's the advocacy kind or the slave morality kind.
>>77183904
>The workers talk about organizing. They decide to organize.
By "they", that can mean 51% of the wrkers decide to force the other 49% to unionize and use their leverage as laborers on the union's behalf to coerce the employer. It varies from state to state, but most states have laws that give unions way too much power. I'm not against collective bargaining, you just don't need state powers to do it.
>>77184063
>You taking an offer of employment at a union employer is voluntary.
Not in states that force every single person in a specific industry to be a union member.
>>77165364
Unions are great.
They're just generally corrupt, prone to infighting, and the democratic parties bitch
Aside from that they're great
>>77165364
Teacher's unions will make it so we have no choice other than to hang subversive "educators".
>>77184095
Private unions aren't private though, there are laws in many states that give them extra powers.
>>77166032
>>77183822
Unions are also an exchange, you pay the dues, and in turn get the higher pay, benefits, and protection/representation. i agree that people should do what they want. You do get something out of unions and you do be benefit. If you don't want to be union don't. If you do, go for it. I love them because of some terrible experiences I've had at a job in my past.
>>77166961
Dad fucked his back due to a hole in the warehouse floor back in the 90s, he got fired because he could no longer work.
>>77184331
There is no such thing. Unless you're talking public sector unions which i know nothing about because I've never been in one. Private sector? It's all up to you. And if it is a sector that is "only union" then it comes down to what means more to you, your morals or doing that specific job. Unions don't just go around finding people. You apply, have an interview, and accept or decline the offer.
>>77184331
Ah teachers forgive me, I'm tired as shit. But like I already said I know nothing of public sector unions and I won't pretend to. My union experience is IAM and Teamsters with Friends and family in trade unions.
>>77184275
I can see your point. However you'd be shocked, or maybe you wouldn't at how many people love being in a union. Sure there are the complaints but from my time in the teamsters and then IAM, people really like what they get from being union. No one ever says "I wish we weren't union" I'm not saying the 51/49 split never has happened but I'd doubt it would be common to see a work place where it's almost dead even like that.
>>77181788
Unions telling workers who to vote for is a fucking sham and you know it. I'll find some where else to work before I vote lib. And it's really a non issue. We had a privatized company a while back and I just spent a year on their site bigger than ever. Don't need unions to guarantee work.
>>77183822
Hey man I'm anti union, but one of the few things I don't mind is dues aren't taxed. Up here anyway
Fuck the teacher unions. They make sure the least qualified burn outs stay in positions where they can continue to do nothing.
>tenure is like 3 years, burnout generally starts at 5
>keeps new teachers out
>drives up pay artificially. Teaching adorable 7 year old kids is a job most early childhood educators would do for pennies on the dollar.
I'm a preschool teacher and I'm not covered under a union, and because of that I've seen long time burn outs leaves he industry because they were likely one shit stained crayon box away from shaking a kid.
It puts our children in danger
>>77184639
My wage doesn't go up, I have benefits already, I represent myself because I have a good repertoire with the office staff. What's wrong with that? When I just got in the trade 2 guys told me talk to others about unionizing and they were both guys wed pick up in busy time and they'd get used and abused. Why should I care about guys that can't function by themselves?
>>77166605
Wisconsin Stateworkerfag here. I stopped paying dues as soon as Act 10 was law. Figured who needs them, since the Civil Service rules were similar to tenure anyway...
Now, since Civil Service rules are re-worked, I'm looking to go back to the private sector. I still work circles around many others, but they aren't giving any promotions even when taking on additional duties. Also, I've seen many people actually get fired or forced into early retirement, after getting progressive 'discipline' letters which really amounted to bullshit from their lesbian man-hating section chiefs.
The 100k/year bus drivers still exist. They way it works is that the driver with the most seniority gets dibs on all the 'overtime'. So they do that for 3 years to pad your retirement, which is based on the 3 highest years of salary, not a average of what you made over your career. Same thing goes on at Corrections.
