Let's put our thinking caps on /pol/, and discuss how an interplanetary or even interstellar state could be administered:
Without FTL communications or travel;
With FTL communications, but without FTL travel;
With FTL communications and travel;
Disregarding your personal political preferences as to why such a super-state should exist and stay cohesive in the first place, what kind of governmental structure or administration would be able of maintaining a cohesive interplanetary (within our solar system) state?
What about relatively local interstellar states?
There are three requirements:
The governing authority must be able to tax, in some form or fashion, all of its holdings.
The governing authority must be able to enforce rule of law, in some form or fashion, in all of its holdings.
Goods and people must be able to move (not necessarily freely) between all holdings.
TL;DR: How would you design a robust and effective governmental administration able to cope with communications and transportation delays on the scale of, or many orders of magnitude above, that of the colonial era.
quantum mechanics
/thread
>>69290635
>Without FTL communications or travel
Have fun with that.
>With FTL communications, but without FTL travel
It might work okay until someone disagrees with you enough (over say, taxation) to shut down the comms net on their end. It'll take years for your taxation fleet to get there, and by then they likely would have enough defenses to sweep it unless it's a a yuuuuge fleet. All for fucking space taxes.
>With FTL communications and travel
Read the Halo lore for a decent estimation of how keeping the colonies in line would play out, even with a fairly benevolent government trying to administrate it.
Even if it were between localized (so within 10 light years max), there's no guarantees the people in the other nearby system(s) wouldn't eventually demand greater freedom if they felt they lacked enough autonomy from whatever system was sort of running the place.
>>69290635
Ive been reading a book series called the expanse. Its like game of thrones in space.The 4th and 5th book start tackling the idea of who is in charge of the galaxy. Its a really great series. The first book is called leviathan wakes.
>>69291751
They're making it into a decent TV series too, the season that's out right now covers just the first book though.
>>69290635
Simply put - if FTL travel and communication isn't an option, there IS no interstellar government... at least not one that exists on anything but paper.
You can't administrate, govern, or enforce policy decisions if it takes a decade to send a comm and a hundred years to send supplies/ships/soldiers.
>>69291527
>>69292244
Good points, but keep in mind; it took weeks and months for communications and logistics during the colonial age, and they managed to get along fairly well for a time.
While the problem is scaled up massively, it's still the same problem; How do you effectively administer a decentralized, central government?
The biggest solution, I believe, lies in having the planetary equivalent of colonial governors or constabularies; extremely loyal sections of the populace able to hold their own and exert some manner of control over the locals until relief arrives.
Of course, this is still little better than "the government exists only on paper", but limited social engineering and the like would go a long way to dissuading would-be secessionists.
>>69291751
Thanks anon, I'll have to give it a read!
>>69290635
Under all three of those circumstances governance would be very tricky considering you have infinitely expanding borders.
What makes governance possible in our day and age is that borders have an end to them and are geographically defined.
Space is just a giant void ready to be filled so it would probably end up like the wild west with pockets of civilization amongst a landscape of lawlessness.
We will be able to communicate FTL with "spooky atoms".-thing is with most planets not being suitable for humans we will mostly be living on huge space stations. Hard to govern mobile colonies. Tribe will form. But a one universe government? No way.
>>69292896
> they managed to get along fairly well for a time.
See: the Declaration of Independence, and the numerous colonial independence movements constantly plaguing the European empires. If you're looking for a lasting solution to keep humanity together as a united front, idk if the failed imperial system is a good model. Given the massive distances, even small insurrections could wreck everything.
Honestly "neo colonialism," in which administration/domination is run by large corps from the former colonial nations works much better provided you keep the corporations on a shortish leash.
The corps would have a big incentive to keep their workers happy and productive (thus loyal) and you could mandate replacement of the "management" every couple years so they don't get any funny ideas. Granted, this still offers issues of how to keep them and their deputies loyal but it's better to give the individual colonies mostly free reign, with very moderate taxation in exchange for manufactured goods/orbital transit services from the more developed home/core planet(s).
Imo, this is the least shitty option to solving a very difficult problem.
>>69294678
maybe a 1984 scenario where there is perpetual war would keep everything in check.
>>69291751
Sounds interesting, would you recommend the series?
>>69294002
True, but an expansion beyond earth also necessitates an entirely new governmental system, beyond what we have now.
The nice thing about the universe is that it's hierarchical, and that an administration planned to be extensible is capable of infinite growth.
Assuming the base political unit is a district of 10,000 people, or some small area, we can see this hierarchy.
District
Municipality
Domain
Regional
Planetary
Stellar
Sector (local star cluster)
Super sector (many sectors) (likely end point)
Sub-galactic (an arm or the like)
Galactic
Super-galactic
You see where I'm going with this; if everything worse the way it should, each level of government would be recursively in charge of developing and expanding its jurisdiction.
>>69295035
Especially if it was between the 3-5 massive corporations and Earth/The Inner Sphere just kind of brokers deals and sells weapons to everyone constantly lel. Could be neat.
>>69290635
The only viable solution I can think of is to create point relays of folded space.
>>69294678
You need a constant military presence, Death Star style, to discourage the local governors from wanting to secede.
>>69294678
There's honestly no difference between the imperial model and the corporate model though, the latter is just colonial governors that have been privatized. A corporation is effectively a sub-state given legal authority by a state, after all.
But yes, I do agree with you that it's important to afford other planets a degree of freedom. Honestly, without FTL communications, I don't see a viable way to enforce loyalty without straight up social engineering to foster loyalty to the greater political entity.
>>69291098
thats not how that works.
>>69290635
Write your governing principles in a way that they they will produce expected results in all circumstances and install a government body that maintains strict adherence to those principles such that incommunicable states will arrive to the same legal decisions enabling a cohesive singular state without the need to escalate local decision making processes to a central governing body.
Also sci-fi art dump time
>>69295865
Meh, only choosing loyal Earth/Core World individuals and just cycling them out constantly (every 5-10 years, depending on how long the flight takes) then giving them awesome incentives for retirement like premo property/company stocks, especially if their colonists approved of the rule, would work better imo. Carrots > sticks.
Once a colony reached a certain size/level of development, it could be invited into the Core Communities or w/e and just elect it's own rulers from then on. Idk if a central governance would ever really work though, sure you could have a Stellar Congress/Senate but short of some unifying external threat it'd be kind of a fools errand.
>>69295865
How do you maintain the loyalty of your peace-keepers without FTL travel, or even FTL communications?
The only way I could imagine this working is with constant, periodic generational campaigns of garrison forces between planets and Earth.
Forces depart from Earth, embark on a 100 year garrison patrol between various planets (five generations of soldiers passing in that time), and never at each planet long enough to create ties.
100 years later, the flotilla returns to Earth, is offloaded and processed back into the citizenry, and fresh stock is onloaded and sent back out on another campaign.
With enough of these fleets out on patrols, you can create a near-constant military presence on all other planets, as well as cycling the garrisons themselves to prevent disloyalty and aberrant cultures from forming.
>>69290635
Just watch this show.
>>69296638
On second thought, this could likely be the solution to not just military, but also communications and trade as well.
Have a huge amount of these trade/garrison fleets out at all times, such that there's multiple in transit to each world, one arriving, one present, and one departing.
Through whatever model you'd like, offload and onload supplies, goods, and people to ensure a relatively homogeneous culture and genetic mixture across the entire space-empire, with all of them eventually looping back to Earth to bring back fresh citizens from the other worlds, and send out "pure" Terrans to populate them.
Each leg of the trip would take anywhere from 10 to 30 years, with an entire circuit taking a century or more, meaning that some generations would likely be born and die on a ship entirely.
>>69296024
Ah, but you forget the layer of separation between the Central Government and their Corporate lackeys. The Corporate folks can easily be dismissed as idiots if their rule begins to cause friction with the Colonists, vs your specially appointed governor/representative of Earth who could lead to full independence movements.
Sure, you can show up to demote your governor but he's still your representative and it'll look bad on the central govt vs just replacing the management of the local corp (and giving him a decent retirement package so he stays quiet). In one, Earth is sort of the restorer of order and in the other it's just cleaning up it's own mess. Granted, the corps are all from Earth in the end so you wouldn't want to keep replacing Corporate Management (and thus quality managers are important) anyways, the layer of separation just gives you more chances to get it right so to speak.
>>69291956
Well sorta. Avalasara is in it for some reason and she doesnt show til the second book
>>69290635
>without FTL comms or travel
Give up
>>69295423
Highly
>>69290635
Inevitably they would govern themselves.
>>69297551
Fair point, but after enough of these incompetent/corrupt corporate governors, the colonists would wonder why Earth doesn't just step in and directly appoint their own governors.
At that point the planet either rebels, or you somehow manage to bring it into the core worlds, where they're too developed and content to care about the effort of rebellion.
>>69295587
A.I would be the only thing capable of administering something like that.
Actually that is probably the answer remove humans from leadership roles and use a true Artificial intelligence.
>inb4 terminator
A.I can surpass human limitations with space and time.
Not possible. Why should the citizens of Alpha Centuri give a flying fuck about how some oligarch on Earth thinks they should live their lives?
Unless the "central authority" tightly restricts space travel and places orbital weapons over every constituent world. These weapons could be controlled by a "smart" AI that would launch an escalating series of strikes if it detected "seditious" activity.
Alongside this, social engineering could be used to create a sort of religion that would keep the colonial populations in a mindset that would allow them to accept the Imperial yoke without question.
Basically, space is really, really big. Without FTL travel or comms it would basically be pointless to have an interstellar government. The only things that would be economical to trade between systems would be information; i.e., patents, blueprints, art, computer languages, literature/entertainment. Most of it digitized.
If you're prepared for a significant amount of wankery look up Orion's Arm to see why interstellar government in a "hard" setting isn't that feasible.
quantum entangled particle binary communication
>>69297402
>Each leg of the trip would take anywhere from 10 to 30 years
What the hell sort of magic engines are you using?
>>69290635
A Dune-style feudal empire is probably the best way, desu senpai.
warp bubble, technically you aren't moving at all
>>69298313
We're assuming that even without FTL travel, technology is advanced enough to allow for travel at near the speed of light; let's say 75% percent.
I'm not a physicist, but I assume that 10 to 30 years would be more than enough time to travel between systems that are 12 to 20 light years away.
>>69298065
>Alongside this, social engineering could be used to create a sort of religion that would keep the colonial populations in a mindset that would allow them to accept the Imperial yoke without question.
Isn't that basically the Imperium of Man?
>>69290635
FTL not gonna happen for a while. Mean while all humanity really needs is between the Earth and Moon. This area offers relative safety and the unlimited natural resources of space, ie, constant solar energy, a hard vacuum, and micro-gravity. Any other resources needed in this region can be robotically sourced from the Moon, asteroids, or the Earth.
The simple answer is you don't.
The long answer is you could potentially have planetary or system level governing bodies which run almost everything, and those organizations are beholden to a larger interstellar body which performs some needed service that the lower bodies cannot
>>69298562
Pretty much; the best thing about it is that the Imperial Cult isn't that oppressive either.
It's basically "call your God the emperor" and "disobeying Terra is heresy"
Some kind of secular imperial religion could be possible to maintain loyalty, assuming you can prevent it from mutating.
>>69298562
Read Red Mars trilogy by Kim Stanley Robinson for interplanetary state.
Basically each planet will eventually be self governed. Having Earth be a colonial power that extracts resources from other planets doesn't work in the long run. People that move away from Earth want to be independent and not beholden to Earthly problems and limitations. Hard to police people billions of miles away with no FTL. Also a trip to mars would be possible in small windows. If they try to bring an invasion force, destroy the space elevator. Mercury troubling you? Strap rockets on an asteroid and blow them all up. Terrorism would be so easy in space. No star wars shit, just relativistic missiles that are impossible to stop.
Future war is scary, its like the machine gun in WW1 x100
>I'm not a robot because I can identify food
>>69290635
Leaders are distributed based on population of an arbitrary area.
>50 people (local leader, reports to)
>1000 people (suburb leader, reports to)
>10,000 people (region leader, reports to)
>100,000 people ("State" leader, reports to)
>1,000,000 people ("Country" leader, reports to)
>10,000,000 people ("Continent" leaders, reports to)
>100,000,000 people (Planetary council member, reports to)
>500,000,000+ /Planetary population (Interstellar council member, top leadership, responds to wishes of lower members)
Realistically we probably can't have interstellar legal systems, it wouldn't be able to respond effectively. Each planet would probably run itself according to its own rules; where each planet/solar system would choose to belong to a Federation of systems.
>>69291098
Sadly you're wrong, QM doesn't allow for FTL communication.
t. Physics PhD
>>69297983
I'm sure after 2 or 3 fucktards needing to be replaced the Central govt would likely appoint an interim regent or acting governor of some kind until something longer term is figured out (likely bringing in a competing corp) but any number of reasons could be given to the colonists about why Earth doesn't like to micromanage the colonies, for example:
>We value your autonomy and wish to give you the governance which will make your individual planet as prosperous as possible. In pursuit of this we believe in letting those best able to do so work to this goal (ie the local supercorp)
The key is deflecting as much blame as possible away from Earth + the Core Worlds, and instead at their patsies. Eventually the Corps would prolly get pissed at this, and thus keeping them in competition (especially busting trusts) is imperative. This creates a whole slew of new issues, but you could almost tip toe to unified governance this way.
>>69298021
>tfw the perverse machines and their thralls claim machines should administer the starry domain of mankind.
>>69298707
Imperium of man is more involved than that. They take tithes and conscripts for the guard and astronomicon.
>>69299070
>50
That seems a bit small for a unit of demographics, I would assume that 1,000 would be the absolute lowest administrative unit that's effective.
>>69298796
>Future war is scary, its like the machine gun in WW1 x100
one thing you have to remember is how hard it will be for an individual to wield this power. You're talking expensive shit that requires thousands of individual workers to operate/maintain. If you go the automation route, then you're talking about concentrating so much power that large populations are meaningless, so there's less danger really.
>>69299262
Yeh, they'd probably just act as community volunteers that advise the higher ups.
>>69299262
1000 people can be difficult to manage. Just sayin.
If we ever get a firm grasp on antimatter, we could use wormholes instead of FTL travel. As of right now, it would take something crazy like the whole world's GDP to make a gram of the stuff. But antimatter + energy theoretically = wormhole
>>69298707
Basically this, though I imagine that it would have to be a bit more specific in order to fit with OP's setting.
>>69298542
12/.75=16.
You'd have to accelerate to cruising speed up to the halfway point between each system of course, which would take years. Then at the midpoint you'd have to "turn and burn" to decelerate, again taking years. You'd have to spend at least a year at each system most likely to refuel, transfer personnel and materiel, ect. Between one system and Earth, perhaps, but I don't see an interstellar spacecraft being used for more than one system. I'd imagine each "ship" would be equipped with just the amount of equipment it would need to travel to one system and back, if that.
>>69298328
This, if anything. Feudalism, either with rule by nobility, a corporate surrogate, or by an AI overmind. Space is too big for a large democracy.
>>69298337
Doesn't answer OP's scenario.
>>69298650
Yup
>>69299184
Not like you could stop something that has a brain the size of our planet.
>>69299177
quantum entanglement ffs
>phD in sucking dicks
and i actually have a masters degree in engineering physics
Just as an FYI, focusing electromagnetic waves through a crystalline structure causes a gravometric vibration that can nullify the mass of any object.
Electromagnetogravitics. It's how the Egyptians constructed the pyramids. The hieroglyphs showing some weird large, light bulb like contraption is actually an electromagnetogravitic device. They hooked their batteries (Baghdad batteries, in larger and more focused concentration) to copper wires they wrapped around large iron cores, surrounded by a fine crystalline bulb, with a waving wire running through the center. With these devices they nullified the mass of the giant stones, and literally levitated them into place.
Don't believe me? Try it. Go buy a large iron nail, wrap some insulated copper wire around it and attach the ends to a battery, then attach more winding copper wire to a large crystal (most kinds work), let it sit for a few minutes, then point the device in such a way the magnetic waves roll off the iron core of the electromagnet straight into the crystals path, then into the path of the object you want.
Nationalistic democratic society, u know, like how the "Nation state" idea became the common way... This way planets can govern themselves and rely on contact through the use of ships, Obviously we would need to revolutionize and industrialize our ability to get into and out of space with ease, A helium 3 Fusion rocket is probably our best bet, that or Muon catalyzed fusion, to get to planets and in/out of space with ease.
>>69299219
Not really. Yeah they have the tithe, but beyond that they don't give a shit how you run your planet as long as you pay your tithe and are loyal to the Emperor.
>>69299357
All it takes is for one captain or post-human to push a button.
>>69299441
Nope. All you would end up doing would be blowing up whatever lab you're working on.
Look up "exotic matter". I think that's what you're thinking of.
>>69298947
>I'm not a robot because I can identify rivers
>>69299461
>You'd have to accelerate to cruising speed up to the halfway point between each system of course, which would take years. Then at the midpoint you'd have to "turn and burn" to decelerate, again taking years. You'd have to spend at least a year at each system most likely to refuel, transfer personnel and materiel, ect. Between one system and Earth, perhaps, but I don't see an interstellar spacecraft being used for more than one system. I'd imagine each "ship" would be equipped with just the amount of equipment it would need to travel to one system and back, if that.
Fair enough, I didn't bother looking up the equations that would compute the actual travel time.
I do, however, thing that it's important that these generational trade/garrison ships also travel between colonies, not just a colony and Earth, to promote greater "cross-pollination" if you will of culture and genetics, with Earth being the font where "pure and prepped" humans are sent out to modify the cultures of the colonies.
>>69290635
Magnetic particle Field shield with photons (M)
Light Beam with a positive & Negative (L)
(M) <-----------(L)------------->(M)<---------(L)------------->(M)<------------------>(L)<--------------<(Ship)
>>69299603
>laughinggirls.jpg
>>69299544
The dubs speak the truth, you don't wanna mess with the Archailects. However, with enough warning you could probably snuff it out in it's crib. There's a good chance such a being would make a great unifying force for mankind to work towards defeating (dunno how well they'd do if they attacked once it was awake though...)
>>69298542
>12 light years
>10 years
>>69300075
Rip me, I'm retarded; I meant 4 or 6, not 12; Alpha Centauri is a little over 4 LY away, so that translates to around 6 to 10 years of travel time at such high velocities.
>>69299603
you telling me we wuz kangz and shiet?
>>69300015
Well the problem is that once AI becomes possible to create it will be created by someone, somewhere be it some Government, Corporation, University or someone else.
>>69299555
Entangled particles cannot transmit information at a distance, they have complementary spins when observed no matter how much they are separated (to put it very simply).
>>69299858
I disagree. Humans would inevitably develop into sub-species relative to the conditions of the planets that they colonize over time (not even taking into account the possibility that we might genetically modify ourselves in order to live on said planets)
In fact, I think I've got it figured out. Don't bother sending people at all. Send frozen eggs and sperm to each planet and just grow the people when the ships arrive. Have a handful of "caretakers", high-level robots designed to mimic humans, that would raise the first generation of colonists. These new people could be indoctrinated in whatever the colonizer saw fit.
Bam, social-engineering that would promote permanent and unwavering allegiance to the "interstellar state" while saving costs and materials on the infinitely expensive travel costs at the same time.
One space policy expert has suggested that once a space settlement reaches a certain thousands of people in population that it should be able to apply for US Organized Territory status. This isn't law but it has been proposed to Congress in some fashion.
The biggest post-settlement question is how to plan for autonomy, various freedoms and growth in a harmonious way.
![dcgkVsK[1].png](https://i.imgur.com/Rdm1NFT.png "dcgkVsK[1].png")
Giant ship full of AIs, and frozen fertilized eggs.
The ship goes and thousands of years later it arrives at the destination. If there is a planet worth settling. The AIs will grow people in artificial wombs. Then the AIs raise the human children. Then the first gen and the AIs raise more frozen eggs and babies of the first gen. So on and and so on.
the ship will be an Oneil cylinder. So it can be a colony in space with pseudo gravity. Once the human and AI population is big enough. They can start any terraforming and settling of the surface.
You won't ever know if the ship successfully started a self sustaining colony. So you send out hundreds of them. Several to the same planet, but spaced out so the same incidents don't destroy all the ships.
the hardest part really. Is going to be programming the AIs. They need to be able to raise humans, that are human.
>oh and, in case of aliens. Make sure they can't trace the ships' origin.
>>69300376
I only have a laymen's understanding of quantum entanglement, but couldn't these spins be manipulated in some way? If so, the generated movements could be used to represent bits of information.
It would be extremely low bandwidth, but you don't need much to be able to text PAY TAX AMNT 10 TRILLION TONS PLATINUM or NUKE THE REBS.
>>69299555
>>69300376
think of it like putting a red bead and a blue bead into two different containers, and moving both to opposite ends of the universe.
if the container you open has a blue bead then you know the other has a red bead.
at least from what i understand
>>69300675
Yup. Though I would almost say that if you can build Oneil cylinders why bother having your soul weighed down by the gravity of a planet?
>>69300690
Yeah that's the problem (and it's where the misconception comes from). When you entangle two particles you have no control over which particle gets which spin, it's totally up to chance and when you check you collapse the entanglement.
>>69300434
>I disagree. Humans would inevitably develop into sub-species relative to the conditions of the planets that they colonize over time
Yes, but it must ultimately be a decision on whether we want humanity to splinter into many sub-species, or whether we want to ensure genetic purity.
If the latter, a constant flow of genetic fodder would be required to dilute and reduce any mutation or deviation from the norm, as well as requiring humanity to only live on Earth-like planets, or live in habitats around useful planets with needed resources.
If we do decide to allow for differentiation, then there is no gurante that unity can be maintained, unless we get really, REALLY good at administering cosmopolitan nations.
You think white vs black is bad? Wait until you see Terrans vs 10 foot tall spacers vs 4 foot tall heaby-geers. Humanity already sharing a common heritage isn't enough to prevent strife.
artificially induced acceleration is COMPLETELY indistinguishable from gravity.
>>69300996
Ahhhh. I didn't know that the entanglement collapsed.
>>69301061
I don't think we'd really have any choice in the matter. Either we live on artificial habitats around useful worlds like you described, or we undergo speciation. Even on a world that has 98% g, the conditions would still be off-kilter enough that after a few tens of thousands of years you'd have variation.
>>69290635
I like how you completely rule out a possibly of this with no government at all. Nothing close to this will be achievable until humans classify the initiation of violence as immoral. For having such an interest in scientific inquiry this idea surely is wholly ignoring math and not to mention the impact of freedom and morality on human prosperity.
>>69300870
Problem that the Quarians in Mass Effect have.
Having a population living in such a controlled environment, for dozens of generations. Would have negative consequences on the health of the species.
>>69301522
It's because libertarians and the philosophy supporting them live in a fantasy world that can not, will not, and should not be applied to reality.
I'd love to hear how math has anything to do with your intellectually bankrupt philosophy.
>>69301739
That's why you have a lot of different settlements, and allow for sup-species.
>>69301522
Yeah, space anarchists are a great idea.
>40k years later some douche who thinks he has psychic powers starts a holy war by dropping relativistic kill vehicles on "civilized worlds".
>>69301739
you literally just summarized the theory of evolution
mass effect is a science fiction videogame; it is not real life. It is made by fallible people who are just as capable of being morons as you are.
Just because you see it in a movie or a videogame, does not mean it is real.
Quarians are not real.
The effects of living in a controlled environment in space are effectively unknown because we've never done it before.
Mass effect is a videogame. It is not a peer reviewed scientific journal discussing studies of organisms in microgravity or cramped living spaces.
It is a videogame. It is not real. Stop looking at videogames and popular media for ideas on how things work. They are literally escapist _fantasies_ they are not real.
>>69301476
>Even on a world that has 98% g, the conditions would still be off-kilter enough that after a few tens of thousands of years you'd have variation.
Absolutely, but that's why you constantly import and export citizens to dilute and delay that speciation. If you keep bringing in fresh Terrans, that planet won't speciate very fast.
At that point, however, you have to ask whether the minimal amount of unity provided by humans not speciating is worth it.
>>69302160
>It is a videogame. It is not real. Stop looking at videogames and popular media for ideas on how things work. They are literally escapist _fantasies_ they are not real.
Not really disagreeing with you, but neither is this conversation. We'll never colonize other star systems within this millennium, if ever.
>>69301522
That's great you can call me immoral while i kill your men and take your womenfolk i'm sure that will stop me from finding other like minded people among an infinite amount of stars.
>>69302300
>We'll never colonize other star systems within this millennium, if ever.
Not with that kind of talk, anon!
You'll never take the first step if you don't think you'll finish the journey.
>>69302211
But what would be the point? Colonizing another star isn't about planting a flag, it's about creating the opportunity that life will exist for a few more eons in the universe. As far as an average "interstellar citizen" from colony Gliese-145b is concerned, Alpha Centuri c might as well be another universe. The distances are just too great to be relevant.
>>69302440
But we won't. OP said no FTL; that means generation ships. Which means that any human born within the next 200 years, barring some sort of health care super-breakthrough, will never live to see the light of another star.
Would a unifying religion under Trump bring about the new space age for man as we ascend to the universe to claim it as our own?
>>69302720
No. Liberals would fuck it up.
>>69302673
we have quite a few neighboring star systems anon @ 50% speed of light we could arrive within ten years time.
Are you guys seriously implying that the governments of the world haven't already been exploring space for the past 20years with FTL travel? There are bases on Mars and in the outer planets of the system already.
The technology was given to them by an alien race.
>>69302544
I think that's where we fundamentally disagree, that humanity ought to at least attempt to be more, to do more, than to simply spread itself out across the cosmos until the last stars burn out.
Of course, this is all assuming that FTL communications (and travel) are impossible, but even still I think it's a noble goal to create and sustain a peaceful, prosperous interstellar society.
Of course, it may turn out that speciation doesn't necessarily lead to disunity, and that humans will eventually be able to live and interact in a much more cosmopolitan civilization than we're used to.
>>69302799
Then they will be proclaimed Heretics and purged.
>>69302833
50% is highly optimistic. Even with a nuclear pulse engine like in OP's pic, 5-10% c would be the best we could expect. And it would take decades to build that ship at least, meaning all of us would be too old to ride along by then.
>>69290635
Personally, I don't think STL travel and STL communication is conducive to large scale human society/government. Sans large scale social engineering, groups of people will drift apart.
Vernor Vinge's A Deepness in the Sky offered the perspective that, Humanity is inherently unstable and could not survive in a high technology state on a single world for long periods of time (+10000 years) without being reduced to a stone age state.
One of the characters in said book has spent a considerable part of his life looking for something that would allow him to create the first interstellar empire that would last. Quality read.
>inb4 unconstructive post
>>69303039
it is around about now you should question why we waste so much resources propping up the third world.
>>69302978
If you haven't already, you should really check out Orion's Arm. Based on what you've said I think you'd get a kick out of it.
It's like tvtropes or a wikiwalk though. Say goodbye to the next few weeks.
On topic though, I'm not saying that's a bad idea. I just don't think it would be feasible. There is a very big difference between distances between ports in the age of sail and distances between stars. The cost would far outweigh the benefits of an interstellar government that acted in anything more than a "United Nations" type supra-national organization.
>>69303039
with fusion rockets and enough reaction mass to keep accelerating till you have to start slowing down. you could get to the next star over and still be young enough to do some work and then retire.
you wouldn't plan on a return trip.
>>69290635
Without FTL travel or communication an interstellar civilization as portrayed in most sci-fi is impossible. Humans that boarded a ship bound to found a colony in another solar system would, for all intents and purposes, be on an ark to establish a second human civilization, not to extend the reach of this human civilization.
>>69303112
I'll have to give a read, thanks anon.
However, I do think it's an interesting thought-experiment to consider ways in which humanity might be unified in a truly large scale government with STL tech, even if such hypothesis are not realistic.
At the very least, it's interesting to see what kind of outlandish systems can be devised.
>>69303263
You're preaching the choir Ausfag. Why prop the dregs up when we can reach the stars and actually save humanity?
Hell, with Orion we could have had cities on the moon and Mars back in the 70's. If it wasn't for those damned nuclear surface detonation treaties...
>>69303530
Orion isn't fast enough to leave the solar system.
>>69303352
I don't know how credible bussard ramjets are anymore, but look those up. Why stop at the next star over when you can visit the galactic core in ten years?
>everyone and everything you knew would be prehistoric to whatever squid-people rule the Earth when you get back, but you brought cool pictures
>>69303292
>If you haven't already, you should really check out Orion's Arm. Based on what you've said I think you'd get a kick out of it.
I've seen it floating around, and I'm definitely going to give it a look.
>There is a very big difference between distances between ports in the age of sail and distances between stars.
Of course, but I would assume that the underlying problem is the same, just on a different scale. Honestly, it just depends on who's defining the "benefits" of this; someone like me would put the goodness of having an interstellar civilization near infinite, while someone like you would likely be more pragmatic in your assessment.
>>69303627
he isn't saying we use orion engines to leave the solar system tho just colonise it which would have pushed us 50 years ahead of our current status quo.
>>69303627
I've read figures that say otherwise.
And derivatives of it, like Daedalus, could possibly work.
>>69303757
Not sure if OP, but I'm glad you've made this thread. I've really enjoyed it.
And yeah, I tend to be a pragmatist about most things. I don't think a benevolent interstellar government would be a bad idea in theory, but without derailing this thread neither is communism.
>>69290635
>what kind of governmental structure or administration would be able of maintaining a cohesive interplanetary (within our solar system) state?
Well, if you are going to discard FTL communications and travel then the only known form of government that would be possible is something akin to feudalism.
With communication but not travel an empire would fit nicely.
With both you can go ahead and create an interstellar republic.
>relatively local interstellar states
The closest star system is 4.37 light years away, there is no such thing as close when dealing with space exploration withoun't FTL travel.
>>69290635
It's unlikely that a colony will be self sufficient in terms of resources.
So if they don't do what you want them to then you stop sending them what they need.
That's it. Discussion over.
>>69303972
I am OP, and thanks; it's gotten kind of pessimistic lately on /pol/ without Space Elevator, so I figured a space politics thread would cheer things up a bit.
>>69304142
Eh, I don't think it'd be worth calling it a "colony" if it isn't self-sufficient. An outpost would be something that would require outside support.
And if you're spending n-$ to send humans to another star, you aren't sending them there to build an outpost.
>>69304185
half /pol/ is a great example of why you should have control of your borders and not allow any refugee from other sites to come and post here.
>>69290635
No ftl at all is the most interesting I think and changes a lot depending on the number of colonies.
At a few colonies, you just cant afford to send or even build a fleet, all that an interstellar government could do is to act as an interpreter of a constitution of sorts, if even that or they would be thrown out the moment they didnt need resources imported anymore.
But when you get hundreds and thousands shit gets interesting. A central power could afford to have huge fleets rotating looking for trouble, if a revolution happen somewhere thats fine because a hundred years later a fleet will pass by and reconquer it. Unless they decided to rejoin the empire themselves in the meantime.
When communication and interaction happens so slowly it really only works at large scales, and the individual become worthless.
Makes you wonder at alien civilizations a bit
>>69304371
>Eh, I don't think it'd be worth calling it a "colony" if it isn't self-sufficient.
Well unless we talking about imagined garden worlds around other stars then non-self sufficient "colonies" is what we are going to have far into the future (well assuming any human habitation beyond Earth at all). Even if they can become self sufficient it will only be for very small numbers of people. Say a few hundred at the most.
I mean consider how much hardware it takes just to support a dozen or so astronauts in space.
With such small settlements they aren't really going to have any reason to declare independence from Earth. After all, if they should suffer a disaster it is likely only Earth will be able to rescue them.
Mind you, I'm assuming colonies within our own solar system.
If we start talking about other stars then... well this question is just pointless. Without FTL travel you will NEVER have an interstellar government. Interaction with an extra-solar colony will be so laggy and restricted purely to information. You aren't going to ship goods over interstellar distances. So any extra solar colony is defacto independent.
Let's say Mars did become terraformed and supported a population of several million. What real interaction would they even have with Earth? To colonize Mars the governments and corporations on Earth must sink billions and billions of dollars and massive infrastructure into it. However what do they get back? Nothing. That's why we haven't colonized Mars in the first place.
With no real economic relationship what is there to administer?
>>69298585
forerunners really are cool, but how 343 kinda ruined their design... the architecture etc look weird in hale 4and 5
>>69305157
>Mind you, I'm assuming colonies within our own solar system.
Ah, I assumed you meant interstellar colonies. My mistake.
Beyond science missions and possibly supplying bases on Phobos and Deimos with water-ice for fuel, I don't see Mars as being that economically important.
Now the belt, on the other hand...
>>69290635
a democratic communism would work best in this scenario. keep government control over the most important things, but let them have a good amount of freedom. really though you would need some type of government that would be a mix of all the countries on earth and make some kind of central government to govern the planets and let countries on planets handle other things and let a system wide government handle the really big stuff
>>69306214
this
>>69306214
Fuck that noise, space commie. Go yiff with your Tau buddies on that one.
Shit like that get's an Imperial RKV dropped on your ass.
>>69307043
ok, if you dont want a successful space colonie
