I used to be a classical liberal, i.e. libertarian,
Then I got really sick, that I had to get treatment. I was in the hospital for 3 weeks, until I could go home. Now I cannot work anymore, so I receive a small monthly government check that keeps me alive. Meanwhile I´m trying to expand my income through website building, coding and other methods. However, I would not be able to survive without my government help. So then I realized there a thousands of people like me, who would die in a libertarian society. Maybe not in a libertarian utopia, but in a real life practical libertarianism. How do you justify that, unless you are an edgy teen. I know now how many elderly feel, when they get sick, and all left alone, no pension, no nothing. The thing is, social security is necessary. The very fact society takes care of its sick and weak makes us civilized. Chance is high you will become very sick one day, and then you'll need government help. In the end, you got to realize society is made up of people working together. I am not a libertarian anymore, I don't vote for mr little government anymore and mr privatize everything. Its all fun and games being a libertarian when you are healthy and rich, or have many possibilities waiting for you. But the majority isn't that. There's nothing worse then being left to rot because of harmful substances you got exposed to or a disease you got. I wouldn't be able to pay for the care with privatized healthcare. Luckily our Geert Wilders is pro social healthcare and anti privatized healthcare.
>>70442504
yeah, social security is necessary, but it's not the job of the goddamn state.
get an insurance if you want your ass covered, else suffer. It's not the state's job.
>>70442698
Poor people are the least able to afford insurance, and the most likely to need it.
Solve that one free market.
>>70442698
Social healthcare doesn´t mean there´s no insurance policy, we have insurance policy here too. It just means the government puts extra money on medicine so that it costs less for you. That might be paid from tax-payer money but otherwise it would be very expensive for low to middle income households
Some must fall before others can rise.
actually socialism is not that bad, but it should only be applied to natural born citizens of a country.
There should be no benefits for foreigners
>>70442504
If you're not capable you should die and stop burdening society.
I don't mind helping people who deserve it so long as they are the same ethnicity. Leeches of all colours can be gassed though.
>>70442504
A private party can invest in your health care and you owe the party to pay the investment back according to the contract. I don't know how this would work with elderly people or people with no skills in general. I can also see this going horribly wrong.
>>70442504
>How do you justify that, unless you are an edgy teen
How do you justify being a leech on hard working people?
>The very fact society takes care of its sick and weak makes us civilized.
Welfare is not the definition of civilization. If anything, it's a measure of the decline of civilization.
>>70443122
>>70443170
Thanks guys. I agree
Geert Wilders PVV is our anti-immigrant party and he is pro elderly care and universal healthcare and welfare state, just not for immigrants and he wants tight immigration control. Lots of elderly vote for him because our current "social liberal" government is privatizing some aspects of healthcare and removing a lot of care for elderly, while also cutting welfare. meanwhile they do give housing to 150.000 refugees for free so it angers a lot of us
>>70442504
>What is charity
When people are taxed less they donate more to charity, as they can't offload responsibility for protecting vulnerable people to the government.
You would buy insurance, and get charitable support rather than forcing me to pay for your welfare cheque.
Statist cucks BTFO.
>>70443351
You know which country was ethnically homogeneous but with a huge welfare state?
Answer : Sweden.
Welfare states make a people docile, subservient and apathetic. Geert Wilders might be nationalistic, and his Netherlands might refuse immigrants, but after a few generations of allowing the untermenschen to breed because "muh human rights" you will end up with an untermenschen population, who will beg for immigrants to come back. Just look at Sweden today.
>>70442504
It's good precisely because not everyone is capable, it weeds out the incompetent in a non-violent manner.
If you didn't get the government check, you would be helped out by your family and friends (which would have more money since they don't have to spend it on taxes), or if you don't have any of those, a charity.
>>70443122
This. Most welfare is being ate up by lazy freeloading foreigners. I'd rather give it to a natural-born citizen, even if they were a lazy bum.
In theory the welfare state works, but only if you maintain a homogeneous and nationalist society where it's seen as something worthy of shame and only temporary until you get back onto your feet.
>>70442504
So you use other peoples money as your family?
>>70443583
>In theory [INSERT WORD] works
Usually a tell tale sign that it has never worked and will never work.
>>70443332
I was just like you until I got sick, but reality is different from theory. I don't consider myself a leech because I paid into the tax system myself before I got sick. Rich people would not be rich without governments, because governments create the society, the laws and controls the cash flow, all the necessary equipment for becoming rich.
>>70443501
>Implying 100% population are willing to do charity.
Bitch please.
>>70443501
sure people where more Christian in the 1800´s but millions died on the streets because of poverty because of the absence of government regulation during the industrial age. Charity is nice in theory but doesn´t cover it in practice
When one of you guys get sick you will know. I was exactly like you guys before I got sick.
>>70443720
>I was just like you until I got sick, but reality is different from theory.
Not really, you're just no different than a freeloading nigger.
You've always been a niggerloving cuckold faggot. You just deluded yourself into thinking you were a lolbertarian.
You disgust me.
>I'm pro small government
>*catches cold*
>government halp!
>>70443670
it works now, even with those greedy foreign leeches. without those freeloaders, it would work quite well actually.
>>70442832
Poor people can go ahead and die. People die all the fucking time. Humans are literal trash
>>70443909
>I was exactly like you guys before I got sick.
And let me guess, now you #feelthebern?
>>70443550
>If you didn't get the government check, you would be helped out by your family and friends (which would have more money since they don't have to spend it on taxes), or if you don't have any of those, a charity.
My father died of asbestos cancer and my mother has Alzheimer, I don´t think they can take care of me. I could stay at my friends for a max of a few days, then I´d have to hit the street.
>>70443758
>100% of the population gives charity to the poor wittle govewment
>>70443925
>it works now
It really doesn't. Or if by "works" you mean sub-replacement fertility rates, a culture of political correctness, total lack of ambition, escapism in drugs and sex...
Total degeneracy.
>>70443758
Without being taxed to shit and without retarded government programs, even a small amount of people giving to charity would be enough.
>>70443940
I know it sounds like something Scrooge would say in the Christmas Carol, but it's true.
>>70442832
> number of poor people increases
> there is now incentive to make a policy profitable for all these people
>>70443976
of course not, I don´t like socialists
I am a social nationalist
>>70442504
Thousands of people die for various reasons in every society, that's not an argument against libertarianism.
>>70444163
>I am a social nationalist
Meme word, like "social democrat" or "democratic socialist".
You're a big gubment loving freeloader who feels entitled to other people's money. At least have the balls to admit it, you dishonest nigger.
>>70444095
>Japan
>complains about European fertility rates
>complains about degeneracy
>>70444243
Thats is true, but many more would die in a libertarian society. Before ww2 the Netherlands was a classical liberal society and tens of thousands of people died on the streets during the Great Depression because the liberal government believed it was bad to intervene.
>>70444163
So you want to violate my right to keep the produce of my labour by taxing me to shit to pay for you when you get ill, with the evidence that this inevitably leads to wastefull government programs like wars.
>>70444383
I'm not Japanese, I'm a french expat.
And yes, Japan today is also pure degeneracy. Or are you a degenerate yourself perhaps?
>>70442504
That's why you have family and friends.
You know, people who help you when you're in trouble.
>>70444444
Checked.
>>70444299
its not meme at all, it describes exactly what I believe. Social policies combined with nationalism.
Right now our government is increasingly anti-nationalistic and anti-social policies UNLESS you are a refugee, you will get a free house and monthly cashflow, while they cut elderly care, cut medical care and NOT cut taxes.
That is what modern classical liberal / social liberal governments always do in real life. They always cut everything EXCEPT taxes, while they do promise to cut taxes, it just doesn't happen.
>>70442504
Cool blog post faggot.
>>70444501
>family and friends.
How problematic. Family and friends are antiquated, oppressive bourgeois values. Your only relationship should be with the state
>>70444444
shiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiet
>>70444467
you certainly are one giant edgelord
>>70444444
CAN'T LET THESE GO UNCHECKED
>>70444648
>its not meme at all, it describes exactly what I believe.
Well I'm afraid to break the news but you believe in memes.
Enjoy your decrepit welfare state you fucking sheep.
>>70444787
Triggered much? Perhaps >>>/red/ddit is more suited for you.
>>70442504
why are you broadcasting that you have literally no empathy
>hurr when i was strong i loved lolbertardianism fuck the poor
>now im weak feel the bern gib moneies
your right though lolbertarfianism is dumb
>>70444986
See >>70444899
>I have no rational argument against libertarianism so I have to use the emotional ad-hominem of selfishness
>>70444899
You believe in a world without corruption.
If man was perfect libertarianism would work, just like communism.
Give me one example of a libertarian society, otherwise gtfo
I agree. There is a role for government in certain cases when it comes to health care. For example, if I am born with severe schizophrenia and need to live in a mental institution my entire life, how am I going to pay for insurance and make a living wage to pay for my millions in medical bills?
Governments respond to natural disasters, they need to invest in programs to protect the vets, they have a role to protect their people from Isis and sometimes use military action.
Libertarianism is an inflexible ideology that calls for open boarders. Freedom is just another word for more globalism and less nationalism. I am a nationalistic far right common sense conservative. Libertarianism will never work and being really stubborn about one ideology limits the scope of everything you say and do.
How would libertarians get a man on the moon?
>>70444986
this
based Jakub, leading the west slavs
>>70444444 WOW WHAT A NUMBER
>>70445146
>or example, if I am born with severe schizophrenia and need to live in a mental institution my entire life, how am I going to pay for insurance and make a living wage to pay for my millions in medical bills?
You don't, you fuck off and die and stop polluting society.
>>70444103
Would you donate to some unknown sick faggot you don't care about? Would you donate to 10, 20, 100 of unknown sick faggots? Wouldn't you just get tired of this shit and stop donating one day? If you stop or just couldn't donate enough, poor sick faggots will die. If you don't stop, you will go broke, because you will have to donate the share of those who decide not to. You see, there will not be any less of those who need, but certainly will be more of those, who'd rather spend the money on themselves. Besides, in modern society people prefer to donate not to those who need it most, but to those, who entertain the donor more. I am talking streamers and such. You catch my drift, you know what I mean.
>>70444444
>"qOd'
>444444
FUCKING CHECKED
>>70443917
*tips fedora*
>>70445146
>Freedom is just another word for more globalism and less nationalism
Literally kill yourself you subhuman piece of nigger shit.
>>70445101
>Give me one example of a libertarian society, otherwise gtfo
Loaded question. Was this not true of socialism before it had been tried? Why is the rational of Libertarianism invalidated by the fact that it has never been tried?
That said, the success of the United States over Europe in the last 2 centuries is a testament to how personal freedom works.
>>70445310
Thank you
>>70444444
CHECKED AND REKT
>>70444737
And you seriously think nobody would help you?
Do you think before socialized welfare people just died on the streets?
Yes, if they were no goods and criminals.
Without the nanny state you wouldn't have parasites leeching off welfare, people would actually have to rely on the goodness of others to live in a society or get cast out.
The problem of apathy is a direct result of the superstate.
People don't like to see good people suffer.
If you're a good person, you would never find yourself without help.
>>70445146
>How would libertarians get a man on the moon?
If you think it's acceptable for governments to take money from everyone by threat of violence, just because they put a man on the moon then there is no use trying to debate with you.
>>70445310
>You catch my drift,
That you're a moron?
You should be deported to the gulag, I heard they have free healthcare.
>>70442698
This
>>70445310
Arn't you doing the same selfish thing? You are enslaving people by having them pay your way in life. I don't think you're that important.
> In a libertarian society, what happens if a nuclear reactor explodes? How will free markets have an incentive to clean up nuclear waste?
> Do libertarians want to end all funding to NASA? I think as a society we can agree that getting a man on the moon was probably man's greatest achievement.
> How will libertarians respond to serious terrorist, environmental, social threats?
> How will libertarians build good roads, bridges, ect.
Libertarians have a hate for government and from that point they form their ideas. There will never be a libertarian society in the future because the problems of having big societies today cannot be dealt with like in the 1800s.
> If someone says non agression principle one more time im gonna punch them in the face
>>70445289
Ah good old Asians and their lack of compassion or morality.
How many little girls did you see get run over by semi trucks today and keep on walking, buddy? Oh, wait, is that China? Sounds like you don't give a fuck about others either.
>>70445612
Oh look, another niggerloving cucknadian who loves the feeling of getting sodomized by the long dick of the government. Why am I not surprised?
How did the descendants of what were independent minded explorers, trappers and farmers, become such sheep-like cuckolds?
Or maybe you're a gook or shit.
>>70445658
I'm not Japanese you stupid fucking nigger.
What does a libertarian society do for an old person that can no longer work and is handicapped and needs to be taken care of?
>>70445310
the thing you forget is that poor people generally dont just accept death and die. if you think millions of people are going to willingly starve to death because muh freedumbs you are insane, the second they think they wont be able to eat for the next month they will join up with the nearest communist milita and lolbertardianisms refusal to have a government that can properly defend itself ideologically or militarily means they will suddenly be living in a communist shithole
>>70445394
The United States became a superpower because their economies boomed during world war 1 and world war 2 since they loaned huge sums to Britain, France, etc and a destructed Europe was a huge sales market for thousands of American products since Europe couldnt produce it themselves during and right after war time. America did not become succesfull because the of isolationist government policies.
I have nothing against personal freedom. I support lots of gun rights and loads of personal freedom, I even support the creation of local militia's. You don't have to be against all of that if you support universal healthcare. Not everything with the word social in it is fucking communism.
>>70442504
So before social security people just died when they got sic and when they couldn't afford food they would just starve? Back then there were charitable organizations, people were taken care of. Families who were well of gave cash for the poor families. Was it better than now back then, maybe not but it is a falsehood to say that people would just die if you didn't have socialized healthcare.
>>70445803
>You don't have to be against all of that if you support universal healthcare.
Yes you have you stupid fucking nigger. Because economic freedom is the most fundamental freedom there is. You cannot control economic life without extending control to every sphere of private life.
>>70445289
Something I can agree with! Meanwhile around here we're forced to pay for downies and can't even make fun of them or use them for a theme park called "Down Town" because it would be inhumane.
>>70445791
Thank you. This is exactly why Western Europe created welfare states after world war 2, to prevent the rise of communism.
Libertarianism inevitable leads to millions of deaths and then mass-uprisings. A man without food or shelter will gladly trade his "freedom" for some food and shelter after he'd tried all his options.
Libertarianism will never work.
NO LIBERTARIAN WILL EVER GET ELECTED AS THE LEADER OF ANY COUNTRY EVER
>>70445773
>implying there's a difference
lol
>>70442504
>i can't think in an abstract manner, therfor all my political beliefs are based on "my life"
basically everyone in politics today
no wonder its a cancerous pond of shit
SJW, nazis, libertarians , capitalists
fuck you all and your "realistic" approach
its just a powergrab based on your own situation within society
>>70445612
>In a libertarian society, what happens if a nuclear reactor explodes? How will free markets have an incentive to clean up nuclear waste?
What is insurance?
Also that would violate people's right to physical health and it would be a criminal case.
If NASA can't survive on a commercial basis, then what value is it providing to US citizens other than muh feels?
>> How will libertarians respond to serious terrorist, environmental, social threats?
What are private contractors?
> How will libertarians build good roads, bridges, ect
It's a service people demand so they will pay for it.
Keep up the nitpicking of libertarianism, I could go on all day about how governments are the number one cause by far of unnatural death throughout history. If governments work so well then how come society is collapsing?
>>70445781
They take care of him. The socialist would dump him intogovernment facility out of sight out of mind. It's a hellhole but at least it's efficient right?
>>70442504
see >>70442698
also, people, especially the rich, would be much more generous in charitable donations, and considering how small the minority you are part of is, it would be much more cost effective for a voluntary charity than the mismanagement nightmare that is government subsidising.
>>70442832
They are the least likely to be able to afford it because of government sanctioned monopolies which sque the market rates that are made available, aswell as constant inflation, you're framing your criticism in the current corporatist economy, not the free market that would exist in a libertarian country.
>>70442914
Social healthcare is what makes insurance so expensive, it is literally just a government enforced insurance monopoly which is mandatory for every citizen.
>>70446005
>A man without food or shelter will gladly trade his "freedom" for some food and shelter after he'd tried all his options.
And that man deserves to be treated as the slave he is.
I am actually in favor of all weak minded cuckolds such as yourself to be given a lifetime monthly allowance in exchange for sterilization. Your ilk would waste your pathetic lives living off the teat of the government, consuming the government-approved entertainment and living in certain designated zones, would not reproduce, and after a few generations we'd be forever rid off you degenerate slaves.
>>70446110
>Would you donate to some unknown sick faggot you don't care about? Would you donate to 10, 20, 100 of unknown sick faggots? Wouldn't you just get tired of this shit and stop donating one day? If you stop or just couldn't donate enough, poor sick faggots will die. If you don't stop, you will go broke, because you will have to donate the share of those who decide not to. You see, there will not be any less of those who need, but certainly will be more of those, who'd rather spend the money on themselves. Besides, in modern society people prefer to donate not to those who need it most, but to those, who entertain the donor more. I am talking streamers and such. You catch my drift, you know what I mean.
>the thing you forget is that poor people generally dont just accept death and die. if you think millions of people are going to willingly starve to death because muh freedumbs you are insane, the second they think they wont be able to eat for the next month they will join up with the nearest communist milita and lolbertardianisms refusal to have a government that can properly defend itself ideologically or militarily means they will suddenly be living in a communist shithole
Gotta give it to you libertarians, you sure LOVE toll booths.
Libertarianism is a joke philosophy
>>70446174
How can you say you are in favour of lots of personal freedom and than advocate for sterilization of masses of people because in your worldview they are 'inferior'.
You seem to be the psychopath
welfare programs might strengthen the security of the state from the inside and weaken it from the outside. free marketers might think that at this point in time it is more important to have a strong global presence than an internal one. also would explain the idea of open borders and less dependent citizens - though here i can see loyalty as a main fear of citizens.
>>70446292
>What is number plate reading technology
>What is technological advancement full stop
>>70443122
>actually socialism is not that bad, but it should only be applied to natural born citizens of a country.
You can't make this happen. Socialism is build through overpowering state. If state is overpowering why does it need to care about what its citizens want? instead it start to gravitate to serving ruling eilte agenda. USSR financed perpetual revolution around globe, Sweden takes rapefugees into the ass. Citizens? What citizens? They are serfs under socialism and have no real vote when decisions are made.
>>70446258
>doesn't know how the games were funded in Rome
>>70446258
In the past, masses of poorfags were a threat to the elite. Today, one Predator drone can turn your entire mob into a spot of red paste.
>>70442504
>Keeps me alive
dropped
Why can't you just work and save your own money? Or maybe you could get a job as a door opener or greeter or something similar. Or look at security cameras. Oh wait, you can't because the minimum wage is $15 and gets taxed out the asshole, so no one can afford to pay that.
If you're younger, you should seek help from your parents or relatives, if older, your children or relatives. This is more difficult now though as families become estranged because your happiness as an individual is more important than duty to your family.
Of course, there will always be people that fall through the cracks, and in the current situation its a lot more difficult for people in a bad situation to survive without the state, because of how the system has propagated itself. The state should only be used as a last resort, or in countries where there is a decent amount of trust/guilt at being a lazy fuck living off of welfare. It's just another way for the state to consolidate its power.
It is infinitely infuriating how fucked up peoples opinions on libertarianism is.
ONCE AND FOR ALL.
LIBERTARIANISM ISNT ANARCHY
There would still be small safeguards for people in your position anon.
>>70446388
I never said I'm in favor of forced sterilization. It would be entirely voluntary. A way to cull the stupid out of the gene pool.
You, however, want to FORCE me to give you money. Drop dead.
>You seem to be the psychopath
This isn't reddit, your "you have no feelings :((" name calling doesn't work here.
>>70446540
Good example. Entire nation as cannon fodder for delusions of elite.
>>70446822
The thing is Anarcho-capitalists do actually have explanations for how law and order would be kept in an anarchistic society.
>>70446388
How can you be in favor of denying welfare and healthcare to people just because they happened to be born outside of your country?
Seems almost psychopathic, no empathy.
>>70446822
Libertarianism is anarchy you absolute dumbass. The State does not follow the non aggression principle.
>>70446930
Nice bait sven 6/10
>>70446822
According to most libertarians here there wouldn't , they rather see me sterilized, starving on the street or killed. They are not really making it hard for me not to oppose their ideology.
>>70446822
you cant have your cake and eat it too senpai
>>70446258
again, you are framing your critique in the current defunct economic system, you are part of an extremely small part of your countries population; in a society where people aren't taxed out of their ass, aren't under the will of government sanctioned and enforced monopolies, and are able to gain competitive wages from the competitive market which they can enter with more valuable skills from a private school system, this world where wealth flows so seamlessly from top to bottom through the generations and the central bank sponsered class-gap doesn't exist; now imagine people don't have the same resentment for the unfortunate and needy because they aren't forced to sustain them by the government. even if only a quarter of the population of your country donated a penny, that would still be proportionally huge for the tiny minority that you are apart of.
You don't need the be dependant on what you perceive to be a benevolent government, it's just a scam to keep wealth at the top.
You could easily argue OP that government interference with healtcare, and insurance...without that interference it would cheapen it drastically (which it would). Then minimizing your own expenditures and consumerism would allow you to save for these kind of times. I agree with you that I'm not completely libertarian anymore, but that's because the vast majority of the world population is dumb as shit below 100IQ shit skins that can't even figure out where to shit. Then wonder why the smart people are getting the good shit and why they're left behind come together to try and implement some form of communism/socialism. Then other countries will exploit their own cheap labor to export their own goods to a stronger economy rotting that host's countries economy out from the inside. Smaller government is still right, but not complete libertarian and free-trade (would be interesting living in some anarcho-capitalist system). You are a short sighted pussy that can't fend for yourself. The proper system is some cross of nationalism with bare minimum amount of government securing boarders and implementing some form of trade between countries.
>>70442504
>classical liberal i.e. libertarian
Not at all the same thing.
>>70447031
>they rather see me sterilized, starving on the street or killed
>me, me, me!
The world doesn't revolve around you and your feelings of entitlement you insufferable nigger faggot. Jesus, you've successfully triggered me...
I fear for the future of western civilization.
>>70446988
Libertarianism is just a general term. It's just that Ancaps believe in universal morals ie states cannot exist because they would have to break their own laws with taxation (do not steal), whereas libertarians believe a small amount of government or night-watchman state is an unfortunate cost to pay for orderly society.
There are many nuances to libertarianism, from Ancaps, minarchists, classical liberals and more
I would fuck a young Ayn Rand. There's something ugly about her that makes her a bit cute in some weird way.
>>70445101
the point of libertarianism is that corruption is inevitable, so you should make sure the evil don't have the power over others to misuse in the first place, this really isn't such a difficult concept.
>>70444124
Yeah it's called healthcare insurance and the poor were priced out.
>>70447299
It's difficult for feeble-minded individuals. Keep in mind that you're talking to a guy who formulates his political ideology based on what he personally benefits from a given policy.
>>70447031
You'd have bought health insurance, or would be supported by charity. End of story.
>>70442504
>How do you justify that, unless you are an edgy teen
It is very much unclear that you would, actually and in point of fact, die under these circumstances. In a libertarian society one would assume that the ties of community, family and the network of charities would be stronger that they are now. Not only this, but in virtue of the fact that the libertarian society is one in which people posses a much greater proportion of their income compared to a welfare society, the possibility of other expending some of their resources to support you would be much greater.
There is further the fact that, under a libertarian society, the type of insurance scheme from which you are currently benefiting would, in all likelihood, exists under a privatized form. Namely, employment disability insurance would be something which you would be free to buy so that it could benefit you in times of need. Since you would be living under a libertarian society, you would have been socialized in such a way that you would have been aware that these were the kinds of things you could purchase in order to protect yourself. Furthermore, your (previous) employer may very well be be offering such a plan to his employee through some sort of contract with a private insurance company.
Therefore, in a libertarian society, there would exists several mechanism through which the kinds of risks you are alluding to would be taken into consideration.
>>70442504
Charities and family members should be helping you. Not the government.
>>70447299
You do realize various forms of government corruption is inevitable too right? It's just they make it legal for them to be corrupt.
>>70447031
Libertarianism leaves social issues up to local cities and communities but their remains a small federal government for the necessity of Protecting Borders, Destroying a monopoly in the free market, Providing basic Mental Healthcare to keep homeless people and shit off the street.
Government is NEEDED and a definitive part of legitimate free market libertarianism albeit extraordinarily small relevant to the government we've seen for 150 years..
>>70447005
How is it bait? The only difference between that argument and the OPs is geography.
>>70447521
This is all nice in theory but this has never happened in real life. It's like Marxists saying it will all be nice and great and everyone will be voluntary helping to better society and create a communist world utopia, only to find out that in real life it creates the opposite. In real life libertarianism leads to the opposite of the utopian and "extremely fair" world it described. It leads to mass-poverty and death and finally, to a revolution of the have-nots against the haves. Not everyone is a healthy, young entrepreneurial male or female that grew up in a stable house with a many resources to his use to become successful.
>>70447754
biology
wait a minute, how does a libertarian society not ultimately end as an oligarchy? why is a libertarian society even considered feasible?
>>70447235
>you've successfully triggered me
Relax, it's probably a troll. Not too long ago someone posted an anecdote about the success of a labour union they were a member of; they struck down the evil capitalists and claimed their fair share! Later in the thread he admitted that the story was fake and that he was a communist. I can't imagine anyone who was a genuine libertarian suddenly shifting their views after they fell ill.
>>70447712
>remains a small federal government for the necessity of Protecting Borders, Destroying a monopoly in the free market, Providing basic Mental Healthcare to keep homeless people and shit off the street.
>Protecting Borders
No.
>monopoly in the free market
No such thing.
>Providing basic Mental Healthcare
Nope.
>>70447475
to be fair, self interest is what we count on to drive a market economy, he simply doesn't understand what is in his best interest.
>>70447648
obviously, or the US would still be as free as it was when it gained it's independence (some discrepancies like slavery excluded) but the argument that we shouldn't strive for freedom because tyrants may rise again in the future is a pretty weak one.
>Sic semper tyrannis
>>70447923
Nationstates are dictated by biology? Top kek.
I doubt there is a significant difference in biology between Dutch/Belgian/Burgundian/Luxemburgian people, for example.
>>70448070
Ok guy.
So you think libertarianism is anarchy. Got it.
This is why the movement can't get ground. Because fucking anarchists make us all look like idiots.
>>70448206
no, in that case the major difference is culture and culture can change, as long as its not a mass migration
>>70443544
Yeah, right, that's why Africa's population is exploding because only the Übermensch is able to breed. You have to take care of your people, and to put it in biological terms, your genepool. You sound like a libertarian caricature btw, cynical cruel rootless cosmopolitan.
>>70447918
>Dismissing things because they haven't been tried
What a lazy rebuttal. I'm guessing you'd be arguing against the liberals back in the 1700s that we should keep repressive monarchies and autocracies because democracy hasn't been tried. Pathetic.
> In real life libertarianism leads to the opposite of the utopian and "extremely fair" world it described
Wait, so it hasn't been tried yet, but you have the right to say what it leads to as fact? Hypocrisy.
>>70448042
A libertarian society indeeds inevitably ends up as an oligarchy, nothing can prevent that.
And oligarchy inevitable leads to socialism/communism.
Socialist and communist societies inevitably collapse, which will lead to oligarchy.
To prevent this whole envious circle, we introduce welfare-capitalism to prevent people from revolting by keeping them happy.
Sadly, it only prevents them for about 100 years, until the most spoiled generations want to try communism again.
And every repeats again.
Social security is going to run out one day anyway.
>>70447918
>In real life libertarianism leads to the opposite of the utopian and "extremely fair" world it described. It leads to mass-poverty and death and finally, to a revolution of the have-nots against the haves. Not everyone is a healthy, young entrepreneurial male or female that grew up in a stable house with a many resources to his use to become successful.
This is all nice in theory but this has never happened in real life.
>>70448634
>welfare-capitalism
Oxymoron.
>A libertarian society indeeds inevitably ends up as an oligarchy, nothing can prevent that.
Explain.
>>70447918
>This is all nice in theory but this has never happened in real life.
This is patently false. All the elements I have mentioned in my answer to you were things which either have happened or are happening still today. If you believe that the private insurance market is something that does not exist then I have some bad news for you. If you believe that somehow a government insurance scheme is fundamentally different than a bunch of private insurance schemes you are, again, mistaken.
If you believe that having an extended family possessing a much greater degree of their income would somehow result in them not helping you in times of need then I can only assume you have a very skewed view of family.
When people are allowed to keep a greater share of their income, the marginal use they can get out of that extra money goes down and it is therefore much more likely to go to """"frivolous"""" things such as charity or helping a family member in need.
We furthermore expect that the individual himself living in a libertarian society, keeping a greater proportion of his income, will do things such as saving his money, buying insurance product or invest it in order to have it grow so that the individual himself will have more resources to take care of his needs.
It is entirely possible that some people will fall through the cracks within that system, but this cannot be held against the system because there is NO system under which all people live perfectly all the time. We can only evaluate things on a comparative basis by taking into account as much variables as possible. Your OP only took into account the fact that you needed a check from the government and that, under a libertarian society, the check wouldn't come from the government and that therefore there would be no check. This is simply wrong.
>>70448672
How can you be so historically ignorant of the situation in Europe during the industrial revolution of mass poverty, terrible working conditions, children of the age of 5 already working in factories, people dieing in the 30's and 40s because of all the shit they've inhaled in the coal mines and the fumes form the factories, and all the mass poverty on the street.
All of the above lead to people like Marx writing shit like das kapital and communist manifesto, so classical liberalism / libertarianism even created communism.
>>70444444
a succinct point ruined by quints. good job faggot.
>>70444444
>So you want to violate my right to keep the
produce of my labour
But ypur labour is not independent. You use the roads we payed to transport your goods. Use our beaurocracy to reach other companies, use our banking system to finance yourself, use our education to have qualified workers. I am happy that you be sucessfull, but all we want is that you give back something back to society
>>70444501
And what if his sickness is paraphlegic?
>>70449000
>during the industrial revolution of mass poverty
Remind me of how good it was before that.
The industrial revolution was the greatest period of human progress in history, would you rather it hadn't happened?
>>70448816
Capitalism is not a synonym for libertarianism or free market, look up the definition of capitalism. Henry Ford advocated welfare capitalism.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welfare_capitalism
>Explain
corruption, human greed, people who strive power and control over others. Some will inevitably find flaws in the system and climb upwards and will mis-use his power to prevent others from reaching his position (i.e. monopolies etc.) He'll make deals with folks in the government with lots of money because the people in the government are also prone to corruption.
>>70448042
Because the whole point of of an oligarchy is to raise prices above what they would normally be under a free market situation. But as soon as price are artificially maintained above free market value you create incentive for other player to get into the game in order to take advantage of those higher prices.
Since we are operating under the hypothesis that this is a libertarian society, other companies can do nothing to prevent another player from entering into the market, or to prevent another company from breaking the price control of the oligarchy in order to take away customers from the oligarch.
Suppose for instance that there was oligarchic price control within the airline industry. Suppose now that you were a private pension fund with a venture capital branch looking to make a profit and that you determined that there was indeed an oligarchic situation within that particular industry. You could, very reasonably, pool your resources in order to buy the asset of some other airline in order to start selling ticket for a price which would be lower than what the oligarch offered and therefore out compete them and get their customers.
Or perhaps you are an international airline company operating in other country and looking to expand. You see the situation in some other country and you decide to kill these oligarchic companies by doing something similar to what I have just described. Nothing prevents you from doing this since we are operating on the basis that the government cannot use force to stop you.
>>70449275
I agree that the Industrial period lead to many great things, but we shouldn't repeat the mistakes we made during that time.
>>70449169
I never signed up to that contract. If I throw an apple through your window, do I have a right to come into your house and steal the money for it?
>>70444648
I'm just like you. They are doing exactly the same thing in my country, but the thing is we do not have refugges. We do not know where the money is going. After all we do, it0s going to the fucking banks
>>70442504
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jcUZrDX5P7A
THREAD THEME
>>70449366
>Repeat the mistakes
You'd rather repeat the mistakes we made before the industrial revolution then? ie submitting to government authority. The reason marxism rose out of the industrial revolution is because we'd never had it so good. The power hungry (statists) had to come up with a new ideology that blamed le evil capitalists for society's problems.
>>70449241
Charity.
The Church used to run a lot of it, but I could see volunteer organizations do it too.
But I don't see how not having the use of your legs is different than illness or a birth defect.
Paraplegics are useful today, so it's even less of a problem than chronic illness.
>>70442504
It's really not difficult, you can get a loan to pay for the hospital services and pay it back when you're healthy, but if you're going to be a drain on society such that no one is willing to let you live, you can't steal from them just for your own selfish needs.
>>70447268
it's her jew genes
How does libertarianism prevent a corporate business owner from buying a few politicians with lots of money, in his favour, so they will give him a monopoly? You can't prevent that because man is prone to corruption. Adam Smith would have even approved the government people accepting the bribes because according to him self-interest is above everything.
>>70445526
>Do you think before socialized welfare people just died on the streets?
Yes
>social contract
libertarians will eternally be BTFO by this simple, fundamental principle of civilization
>>70449657
>How does libertarianism prevent a corporate business owner from buying a few politicians with lots of money, in his favour, so they will give him a monopoly?
The same thing can be said of a non libertarian system and, in point of fact, you are currently describing the birth of a non libertarian system. In other words, you question is : "Under a libertarian system, is it not possible for private companies to destroy the libertarian system?"
The answer is yes. But the fact of the matter is that it is possible to destroy any and all systems.
>>70449657
Anarcho-capitalism.
Either that, or a constitutional republic that does not permit politicians to regulate (ie thwart competition to allow monopolies to arise)
Also reminder that this is already a problem in a welfare state, with the further addition of politicians bribing voters with welfare (Bernie)
>>70449380
>muh contracts
I swear, you fucking libtards are autistic as hell. Did you spout that contract line when your parents asked you to do a chore or two around the house?
>inb4 yes
Society works by demanding things of you and giving you the right to demand things from it in return. There's no contract because that would be fucking retarded and not how it works at all, you stupid fucking Britcuck.
>>70449351
wow that sounds awfully naive, you do know corporations literally kill people for money? from selling soda to bullshit wars for oil, what makes you think they wouldn't do the same and to a harsher extent with even less regulations to maximize their profits?
>>70449657
TERM LIMITS
FOR ALL Elected officials.
>>70447235
>The world doesn't revolve around you and your feelings of entitlement you insufferable nigger faggot
But his opinions revolve around his fellings. You will grow up buddy
>>70449808
Contract:
A voluntary, deliberate, conscious and legally binding agreement between two or more competent parties
This "social contract" is neither, voluntary nor conscious. Therefore it is not a contract, more a propagandist's misnomer.
>The characteristic mark of this age of dictators, wars and revolutions is its anti-capitalistic bias. Most governments and political parties are eager to restrict the sphere of private initiative and free enterprise. It is an almost unchallenged dogma that capitalism is done for and that the coming of all-round regimentation of economic activities is both inescapable and highly desirable.
>>70449000
obviously you didn't notice that I just used your exact quote on both your statements.
The population of europe was skyrocketing during the industrial revolution. so on the whole it seemed to be doing just fine.
>>70450027
That was an ad-hominem filled response that didn't provide any rebuttal. Try again.
>>70449380
>I never signed up to that contract.
You were born in it. If you don't like it, stop using roads, internet, schools. But i don't see you complaining about it? You guys want to have the perks of 1st world life withput paying for it
>>70450027
>Society works by demanding things of you and giving you the right to demand things from it in return
This is not how everything works to be sure. I have no right to demand anything of anybody and in point of fact I cannot enter into a Best Buy or a grocery store asserting my right to some of their products.
What you are describing is an external imposition brought upon people by the government under the guise of benevolent social engineering. But the fact that this is how it is today does not at all mean that you could not enact another kind of system.
>>70450177
Once again, we see the individualist retard who thinks that every single fucking relationship should be voluntary and that nobody should ever get to make a single demand of him, lest he be inconvenienced in some way.
lrn2society, fag
>>70449965
Explain to me how an 'anarcho capitalist' society could even exist in this world with so many people, and don't tell me how it can work in theory but in real life, because I've heard enough so called great ideologies in theory
A constitutional republic cannot prevent business owners from buying politicians.
The politicians may not be able to change the constitution, but that doesn't mean they can't change the system in favour of the business owner. The business owner will simply buy lots of lobbyists to get his way.
Heck, the business owner might become so rich, that he'll buy all the politicians, and hire hitmans to kill the politicians he doesn't like.
Maybe buy a private army in the meantime.
Once he got rid of all the opposition, he'll simply do what he like. Crone himself king or something.
>>70449599
So trowing a few crubs is your ideal replacement? How much charity have you done this past year? And your neighboors? Most people would rather buy a new purse or 4chan gold pass
>>70450365
Why shouldn't every single relationship be voluntary? Should you be tied to an abusive father because of filial piety?
Voluntary relationships sound like an idea worth striving for.
>>70449657
Checks and balances, self-regulating laws
>>70450254
Just because a population is growing doesn't mean its doing fine. Look at fucking Liberia, Nigera and Congo for fuck sake.
>>70449657
>How does libertarianism prevent a corporate business owner from buying a few politicians with lots of money, in his favour, so they will give him a monopoly?
The thing is, they don't have to buy
>>70450314
>You were born in it
So we can choose to sign up the unborn into contracts? What a dangerous and wholly immoral precedent.
> stop using roads, internet, schools
>You guys want to have the perks of 1st world life withput paying for it
Those things exist independent of government, so your argument is invalid. You would have to pay for them in a free market, but considerably less thanks to free market efficiency and the absence of a state-monopoly.
>>70450050
>wow that sounds awfully naive, you do know corporations literally kill people for money?
What is it exactly that makes you believe that a company will care enough about money to kill people over it (which, I might point out, is still a crime in a libertarian society) but not care enough about money to break up an oligarchy?
>>70449796
so educate yourself
the Church fulfilled the role of welfare in the 12th and 13th century
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knights_Hospitaller
the order was created from that practice
Yes, the 20th century was not some incredible social revolution, in fact it's not much different except for the entity of the state being much more powerful
>>70450314
>be forced to pay for something
>surprised people use what they are forced to pay for
>use that as some sort of proof that people want said forced products
>>70450495
If my friends around me need me I help them.
As for welfare, well the state has the monopoly on that right now.
>>70450554
OK. the GDP per capita was also growing very fast during that period in Europe.
>>70449965
We are living in constitutional republics you retard. Most of the west has been living since the 19th century
>>70449891
Than if a libertarian system inevitably destroys itself, then why do you and so many support it?
Just like communism, it's great in theory, sucks in real life.
>>70445378
*worships allah before prepping bull*
>>70450508
Of course you shouldn't be tied to an abusive father because of filial piety. But filial piety should tie you to a virtuous father, especially if you're a child who needs to be taken care of.
Now, and here's the kicker... we all need to be taken care of sometimes. If we don't recognise that, we're seriously no better than niggers.
>>70442504
>However, I would not be able to survive without my government help.
So why exactly do you not have a family, friends or a community who would help you out?
There is quite a bit of evidence that it's because of statism and this societal decay will continue in the absence of voluntarism.
>>70450933
In other words, you agree that all relationships should be voluntary.
>>70442504
>I used to be a classical liberal, i.e. libertarian,
>Then I got really sick, that I had to get treatment.
Libertarians are literally this stupid. Literally incapable of thinking from other people's point of view.
I bet if you got rich again you'd switch back to being libertarian.
>>70450434
>A constitutional republic cannot prevent business owners from buying politicians.
No system can. If a particular flaw is common to all systems then it may not be held against any particular one.
Libertarianism is furthermore specifically opposed to government intervention and favoritism in the business sphere, whereas other system prescribe such interventionism.
What this, in effect, means is that it is much harder under a system other than libertarianism to detect those instances in which a politician is being bought off. Indeed, since we expect, under such a system, for the government to intervene, we may never know if it just so happen to do so because of the "general interests" or because of the work of some lobbyist behind the scene, so that the kind of business influence over government is much more likely to happen with an interventionist state compared to a libertarian one.
In fact, the interventionist state all but guarantee that such business influence will happen, since you have already announced to all of them that the government can act in such a way that it may dramatically affect their commercial prospect. It is only when the government has a great degree of power that said power can be bought off.
The libertarian approach specifically seeks to reduce the power of government so that it is easier for the citizens to understand and so that the benefit of corrupting it are small, since there isn't much it can do.
>>70450434
Discussing something that is not currently occurring means it will be inevitably theoretical. Therefore, you have moved the goalposts.
Everything you're saying is wholly theoretical.
>I've heard enough so called great ideologies in theory
Statism is a great ideology but has led to the deaths of billions and the violation of the natural rights of billions more throughout history.
>>70450882
>comparing libertarianism to communism ever
>not completely on the other side of the spectrum
>commits the argument to moderation fallacy
>>70450963
>So why exactly do you not have a family, friends or a community who would help you out?
>just get a $1 million loan from your dad
ever heard of orphans. you privileged piece of shit?
>>70451202
It's on the same side of the spectrum in terms of retardedness.
>>70450963
We don't live in collective agrarian societies anymore where everybody knows eachother and everyone takes care of each other and families live together their whole life OK.
And for the third fucking time, my mother has Alzheimers and my father died of asbestos cancer. I have a brother but he doesn't want to take care of me because he has a family of his own to take care of and it's not nice to sit around your brothers house, his wife and his kids doing jackshit.
My friends would let me stay in their house for a week max before I'd get kicked out, then I'd have to hit the street if it wasn't for the government help. I can barely fucking walk for christ sake, and my balance is all fucked up. I can't even take a normal job. And as I said, I am trying to find ways to make money online with websites and stuff so I can stop the welfare, but that'll take atleast a few months.
>>70450616
>So we can choose to sign up the unborn into contracts? What a dangerous and wholly immoral precedent.
In western social contract, kids normally don't have responsabilities, but enjoy the protection. Once they are adult, they are free to rescind the social contract, by immigrating. Yes, unborns are signed in this contract
>Those things exist independent of government
wat? Roads in large sscale were pretty much always built by government. Roads made by privates are pretty much shepperd tracks, lol.
Internet was a Gov project.
Schools i can give you, but i think you studied in a public school
>>70450882
>Than if a libertarian system inevitably destroys itself, then why do you and so many support it?
I did not say that it did inevitably destroy itself. What I said was that, under any system, be it communism, monarchism, fascism and libertarianism, people could, if they put their mind to it, try to undermine that system.
Considering the fact that any system is susceptible of being overthrown, this "flaw" is not specific to libertarianism and therefore cannot be held against it or, if it is, it must also be held against all other systems. The thesis that the libertarian system INEVITABLY destroys itself is one I disagree with.
>>70451256
>MUH PRIVILEGE
>>70450857
>you retard
I've noticed a pattern of socialists bringing out vicious ad-hominems whenever their collectivist ideology is confronted with rationale.
Our constitutional democracies allow for a large degree of majority rule, and are filled with corporate corruption.
>>70450882
>Just like communism, it's great in theory, sucks in real life.
You've already said Libertarianism has never been tried. Yet more hypocrisy. It's purely theoretical, and you've just said it's a great theory. So many contradictions.
Remember that Welfare statism is ideologically similar to communism
>>70451414
Like I said, I was a libertarian, because I thought its great, but now I found out its great in theory, and not in real life.
>>70451515
How could you be so retarded to think it's great? Did you really not once think about what it would be like if someone got sick under libertarian? Are you that retarded?
>>70451111
No. Your relationship to a virtuous society and its government should not be voluntary.
Aristotelian politics is back, yo.
>>70451312
you're putting a hypothetical situation into your practical context
the reason you wouldn't sit around your brothers' or friends' house is because they're already paying the state to take care of your sorry ass
>>70451111
Nice quads, by the way.
>>70451515
You're just failing to see alternative possibilities and then declare they don't exist.
>>70450731
Yes, i know about hospitals created by church. But still it was a very limited thing.
>>70450817
Yeah, if my friend wants a cigarete and i have i give him.
>As for welfare, well the state has the monopoly on that right now.
I wonder why
>>70451633
When I was healthy I didn't think about other people suffering, because my mind was positive and entrepreneurial, ready to take on the world. Now reality hit me hard and I do think about others. This is why their "charity" argument sucks.
>>70451320
>free to rescind the social contract, by immigrating
Loving the mental gymnastics. Forcing me to leave my country is a violation of my rights. Accept that the social contract is not a contract in any sense of the definition.
Again, I hope you don't resist if I sign up your unborn child to a contract legally binding him to me.
Consumers would demand roads, therefore the market would provide them.
>internet was a govt project
Not an argument.
>Schools i can give you, but i think you studied in a public school
I was privately educated, but if I had been to a public school why would it matter?
>>70451202
But communism and libertarianism are very similar. Both are anarchist
>>70451312
>My friends would let me stay in their house for a week max
You have shit friends then. We had a family friend stay at our house for over 2 years while she got herself back on her feet after her divorce.
Also charities would help you out. it isn't just government that helps the poor.
>i can barely fucking walk
holy shit you have nothing at all to complain about. an office job requires basically no movement at all. All you have to do is get to the office and leave.
>>70451312
Do you mind me asking what you have?
>>70451515
>and not in real life.
It hasn't manifested in real life, so you can't have "found out" anything. Perhaps you were hallucinating? What we can find out in real life is that statism is terrible. Genocides of Stalin, Hitler, Mao, Pol Pot, (the list is endless) bring anything to mind?
>>70451789
>When I was healthy I didn't think about other people suffering
You are perhaps the stupidest person I have ever seen on /pol/. And that's no small achievement.
Now that you are sick you are probably unable to sympathise with people who are healthy.
>>70451735
>Yes, i know about hospitals created by church. But still it was a very limited thing.
But what makes you believe that the situation that was prevailing in 1910 concerning hospitals would somehow prevail today were we to be in a freer market?
I always have this impression that when people think of the free market, they believe that suddenly everything would become black and white, that they would see children on the side of street smoking pipes, wearing caps, and waiting for their turn to go on the assembly lines. Everybody would go back to driving model-T fords and the fight against the railroad tycoon would be back on. I'd get out on the street and I would hear "EXTRA, EXTRA, extraordinary invention by amazing scientist Thomas Edison!"
>>70451735
>But still it was a very limited thing.
it really wasn't, most parishes had them
Of course you had poverty, like you have today in less rich areas.
>>70451735
>I wonder why
because they put laws into action to take away power from the church
the state has always fought for monopoly on anything and by having a monopoly on welfare they take power away from the church and gain the less fortunate's approval
The only reason for welfare today is to buy votes.
>>70451913
>Communism is anarchistic
Can I ask, are you just baiting now? Honest question
>>70451515
>And not in real life
Libertarianism is only bad in practice if your a lazy pile of shit.
Any type of drive, ambition, or love for your society and it is indeed great ideology.
>>70445146
WHY would libertarians put a man on the moon?
how would a libertarian society deal with a poor, single parent household with a mentally deficient child who needs constant medical and parental care? the single parent only earns enough for rent and food so how would they purchase the much needed care for their child?
>>70451312
I'm sure it's as multi-sided as you make it seem because we have 1 out of the dozen people's side of the argument. Typical statists are selfish like that - they don't care how much work they leech off of others, they think they are special and have a right to not die.
>>70452007
multiple sclerosis, it's been going downhill fast, never knew I had it until this year
>>70451867
>my country~
I thought libertariansim was borderless. You can escape responsiblities by going innawoods.
>Accept that the social contract is not a contract in any sense of the definition.
It's not a contract in legal sense of contract Any non-retard can see that
>Consumers would demand roads, therefore the market would provide them.
You would have to pay a tool?
> I hope you don't resist if I sign up your unborn child to a contract legally binding him to me.
False equivalence mate. Hope you grow up mate. and i definetely hope something doesn't happen to you like it happened to the dutch bro.
>>70452228
we wouldn't.
they'd figure it out or die.
>>70452228
People fall through the cracks in every society. It's not a big deal in the greater scheme of things.
>>70451320
Two words: crowding out
>>70452172
to mine helium-3
>>70452310
>I thought libertariansim was borderless
lolno
this is no requirement
you're talking about ultra-libertarianism or an-cap
>>70452017
I agree, I was a fucking cunt
No, I am have nothing against healthy people
I'm trying to make it right with the God at the moment
>>70452228
For a start they would have more money because they would not be taxed/lowly taxed and products and services like rent and food would be not taxed/lowly taxed so they would have more money.
Due to low/no tax people donate more to charity (proven) which can provide healthcare far more efficiently than a government monopoly.
>>70442504
>I used to be a classical liberal, ie, Libertarian
Then you werent a classical liberal.
>>70452470
>I was a fucking cunt
Again, irrational non-arguments against libertarian ism. You can't just invalidate something by swearing or saying it's selfish.
>>70451913
>t-trust me people don't need to be forced to do irrational trades
ignorant post of the thread
>>70452470
Maybe make up for your retardedness by explaining to other libertarians why they are retarded.
And maybe try to stop being such a drain on society while you're at it.
>>70452103
>Of course you had poverty, like you have today in less rich areas.
you can't compare poverty you had back then to today. My grandfathers lived in a world closer to middle ages (40's and 50's Portugal). Charity keept multiple people from starving, it's true. But in the end it was just crumbs.
>because they put laws into action to take away po...
Because welfare is not profitable you retard
>>70452112
Read the first paragraph in wiki. God...
>>70452470
Perhaps statists are the true selfish people since they demand the right to take other people's money by force to pay for what they think is right.
>>70442504
Look at that hoary old butthurt jewess. God she was fucking ugly.
>>70442504
You think invalids were just left to die before the welfare state? People used to have communities where people would VOLUNTARILY help out their fellow man. The benefit of this of course was the community could discern those who were deserving of aid from those who were just looking for handouts. The government looks at both cases the same.
>>70452303
Sorry bro. I don't like libertarians, but i would never wish something like that to one. I think you have no chance to get better, no? I hope you figure out something, bro.
>>70452310
liberty is ensured by mutual and voluntary cooperation to prevent a geographically, culturally, and racially self interested group of people from being harmed by another group.
a libertarian society would have a government, but it would be almost entirely military. in fact, the military may be the only branch of a libertarian government.
and libertaryanism is not against "ALL" taxation. only taxation that benefits some more than others. because ALL, meaning every single last person, benefits from the collective defense and justice force, it is not a breach of anyones rights or freedom to collect a simple, flat tax to pay for it. and if someone did not wish to pay, they would be infringing on others by being protected by other peoples effort and not contributing, wouldn't they?
libertarianism is not extreme as you might think. most of the super extreme ideas are just memes and slurs.
it's an acknowledgement that the government is primarily a parasite with only the governments interest in mind. its an acknowledgement that the government ruins everything it touches. and its an acknowledgement that rationally and morally, man has rights that are derived from his very nature, and without which he can not survive, and that mans life must be the standard of our values - because by whatever name any other standard is just a slower or quicker march towards death.
>>70452463
>>to mine helium-3
there you have. who knew you could MAKE money going to the moon?
why are libertarians so deluded to believe every aspect of society is profitable and every person is equally capable and born with the same resources?
>>70452686
>Because welfare is not profitable you retard
fine, it seems you're obviously retarded
have a nice day
how many stories have you heard of communities raising millions of dollars for someone who got sick or something?
People can do things without the government being involved.
>>70452686
Use of a word in wikipedia isn't a rational argument. Please explain how communist countries are anarchistic. Just because marxist doctrine supposes that an anarchist society would come out of communism does not make communism inherently anarchist.
EVERY single communist country has proven to be the exact OPPOSITE of anarchy.
>>70452894
they're not.
equal results in life not guaranteed. too fucking bad, kill yourself if your life sucks. deal with it etc.
>>70442504
I used to be a hardcore libertarian but then like you I also got sick. Now I've softened my edge a bit. For instance I'm ok with welfare for people who are not able-bodied. And when it comes to people who are able-bodied I'm for welfare but only temporary welfare. The temporary welfare should be primarily for helping people without jobs get jobs. There can be food stamps and stuff too but again that should only be temporary.
>>70452644
??
>>70452711
You know it's my money too? I don0t mind to have a smaller car if that means my countrymen are not starving.
>>70452805
>People used to have communities where people would VOLUNTARILY help out their fellow man.
Only in poor countries. In rich countries people don't give a fuck and just buy health insurance. Can't afford health insurance? Well you're fucked then.
>>70452894
Everything that is useful IS marketable.
>believe every person is equally capable and born with the same resources
We don't. We just know that governments have a proven track record of failing to solve these problems rather making them worse, and would instead focus on eliminating the stifling of opportunity that governments create.
>>70453033
I suspect every libertarian is this retarded.
>>70445951
>Down Town
my fucking sides
>>70452837
>mutual and voluntary cooperation
How do you expect to protect yourselfs with a militia based on "mutual and voluntary cooperation", lol. Hieracrhy is vital to a army. Have fun working for the chinese.
>military
Draft? And tax collection, who would be responsible for it?
>governments interest in mind.
Gov is not a hivemind
i don't know what i am /pol/, i oppose all of this feminist thinking and general left ideology, but im a progressive and i think that there should be changes, is being a Centrist even a thing anymore?
>>70453048
So because you don't mind tax that means you have a right to impose it on others by force?
There were some slaves that didn't mind being slaves, does that morally justify slavery?
>>70445951
>Down Town
Lost.
Rare kek from a german.
>>70442504
Socialists who hate brown people. Owned by Zios. Don't give a shit about you
>>70452897
>how many stories have you heard of communities raising millions of dollars for someone who got sick or something?
Share one please.
>>70453232
Its not uncommon
We/they simply refuse/refused to believe it/not wanting to believe it
>>70453398
Yep. To date, I find libertarians to be about as dumb as feminists.
>>70452941
>communist
>countries
You know absolutely nothing about communism. Read the forst paragraphs of the wiki page for starters
>>70453316
Libertarians are not anti-hierarchies. Businesses have hierarchies. Joining a militia would be voluntary.
>>70453471
>Joining a militia would be voluntary.
Have fun defending yourselfs against... anybody
>>70452816
Don't conflate empathy with rationality, they are independent and compatible.
>>70452894
>every person is equally capable and born with the same resources?
This is precisely why we need the freedom and flexibility libertarianism provides instead of a forced outcome program.
>>70453462
Please explain how the USSR, communist China, North Korea, and so on weren't communist.
>>70453567
What is stopping your government from killing you right now may I ask? Wiping you off the face of the earth.
>>70453232
They are just little kids. If i knew about this place when i was 13 i would possibly be a libertarian. That is why i think the age should be enforced. This place is not meant for teenagers. Teenagers should be hanging out with friends and doing stupid things.
>>70453237
I keked to
>>70453033
>I used to have principles, then I lost them because I'm a selfish fuck who can't rationalize my state of being
Private welfare exists and is being crowded out by inefficient public welfare
>>70453659
The risk of losing power in the next election for one. They would probably go to jail too depending on how the carried it out.
>>70453048
>??
You need a coercive entity such as the state to enforce communism, because anarchism and freedom induce a free market system. Therefore communism and anarchism are incompatible and anarchistic communism is an oxymoron.
>>70453680
Again, ad hominems. You can't effectively counter libertarian points so it comforts you to pretend that they are children.
Children lack personal responsibility and require other people to care for them. That reminds me of statists.
>>70444444
Nice digits friend
>>70453595
Technically they were what they call in their ideological bubble "state capitalism" because the state owned the means of production in the name of the workers, and the workers did not hold it themselves so it was not TRUE*TM socialism, which is only a step on the way to TRUE*TM communism.
This is essentially an admission that socialism is impossible because it always produces genocidal dictators before you can supposedly reach the hypothetical state of TRUE*TM socialism, but he's too stupid to realize that.
t. guy who argues with deluded Marxists a lot
>>70453864
Roads
>>70442504
You used to have charity, the church used to do a lot of charity also the rich. The community usually takes care of their members unless you live in a fucking multicultural nightmare.
The smaller the community, the easier to discern real necessity from bad habits. Today's welfare promotes citizens with bad habits and low IQ the same as those who really need the help.
>>70453338
I'm not imposing. If you don't like you are free to leave. If you want to use the advantages a 1st world country offers, you have to pay. It's not hard for you to understand. How is 8th grade?
>>70453595
They weren't you fucking retard. At most you could consider them socialistic. You know absolutely nothing about communism, just /pol/ memes
>>70453788
>The risk of losing power in the next election for one
An indirect disincentive. Meanwhile, in a libertarian society businesses have a direct and immediate incentive to protect me since I provide revenue for them.
>>70450248
Related
http://taxfoundation.org/blog/america-will-pay-more-taxes-2015-it-will-spend-food-clothing-and-housing-combined
http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/americans-spend-more-on-taxes-than-food-clothing-housing-combined/article/2587799
http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2016/04/06/americans-spend-more-on-taxes-than-food-clothing-housing-combined/
http://taxfoundation.org/article/americans-paying-more-taxes-food-clothing-and-shelter
http://www.cbpp.org/research/federal-budget/policy-basics-where-do-our-federal-tax-dollars-go
https://www.nationalpriorities.org/budget-basics/federal-budget-101/spending/
>>70453316
>>How do you expect to protect yourselfs with a militia based on "mutual and voluntary cooperation", lol. Hieracrhy is vital to a army. Have fun working for the chinese.
the US military is an all-volunteer force and in fact would probably be no different under a libertarian government. i suspect it'd be more efficient since there'd be an actual reason to save money, and to spend it in more powerful ways, waste less, etc. less retarded and underhanded policies in the way.
>>
Draft? And tax collection, who would be responsible for it?
the government, lol, do you think we're discussing anarchy? we're really not - libertarianism is mostly removing the malignant parts of government.
>>
Gov is not a hivemind
in some very alarming ways it very much is. do you think the government wants to ban guns to protect you? or enacts insurance laws to get you a better deal and be healthy? or farms out private prisons because it likes the free market?
speaking of prisons, its ironic that prisons are one thing that no libertarian would EVER make private... but such is the case of the USA today.
>>70453567
again, libertarianism is not anarchy. its small government that does not regulate the market beyond basic criminal law (ie, if a plant manager sells contaminated food and people are hurt or de-frauded, he is criminally liable, even in the most hard-core libertarian system.)
libertarianism is NOT anarchy, people! there IS a government and there ARE taxes, but there is NOT egalitarian redistribution of wealth.
>>70453934
roads that make sense to build can be built by businesses, industry, communities, and individuals.
c'mon, roads are not exactly high tech and not super expensive...
>>70453797
Rwead the forst fucking paragraph
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communism
ffs
Actually, Marx predicted that communism would need a free market society first.
And don't confund Stanlinism with socialism and communism
Right-wing (mixed) socialism is the default best way for most societies.
Edgy shit can work for some time or in some conditions, but it's still edgy shit that doesn't have longevity.
>>70442504
>Then I got really sick, that I had to get treatment.
>blaming libertarianism for not eating healthy to prevent getting "really sick"
>not taking natural remedies that have been proven to cure such illnesses
>blaming libertarianism for the medical Jew
>being an atheist and not believing in "survival of the fittest"
>believing the strong should be burdened with caring for the weak who contribute nothing to society
>>70453967
libertarians wish for MORE advantages. not fake advantages that are just a means of farming taxpayers to siphon money off to paper pushers and create a system where a business is required to politic just to survive, at the threat of actual force.
isn't cutting medicaid/medicare funding for dialysis treatment on the table in alabama?
i mean, do you guys know how many people will die as a result of something like this in a matter of a week or two? or how many people will go to the emergency room three times a week to an emergency referral to dialysis treatment?
it's not ok to let your countrymen suffer because they can't afford treatment. this is horribly destructive to national solidarity. all aspects of health care should be nationalized
>>70454173
I love how you say this now but the second you come down ill with cancer you'll be waiting in line outside of the welfare office you spastic cunt.
>>70454073
>roads that make sense to build can be built by businesses, industry, communities, and individuals.
How? Who plans and pays for a national highway network?
Also how do you plan walls without eminent domain? Do you just plan to build a road through the country and hope every single farm and town will tell the road building company their land for a reasonable price?
>roads are not exactly high tech and not super expensive...
Roads are actually quite expensive to build and maintain. They are not high tech, but building them to carry a lot of heavy traffic for years without falling apart takes a lot of money.
>>70453864
Roads
>>70454073
>malignant parts of government.
that are?
> do you think the government wants to ban guns to protect you?
American Gov doesn0t want to ban guns. Gun manufaturers would be very unhappy
And what about justice system, what would a libertarian society do about it?
>>70453967
Irrelevant image. A business offering complimentary goods to voluntary customers has nothing to do with people leeching off of other's forced taxes in a welfare state. Strange how that makes sense in your mind.
>If you don't like you are free to leave
I know I'm free to leave. So are you. Your point being?
>USSR and North Korea aren't communist
Please back up this absurd claim.
>>70454107
That poster is right though. In true anarchism, there would be no way to stop other people from pursuing other forms of social organization except through force.
Stay mad tho.
>>70444113
so then you'd have no problem offing yourself then?
>>70454356
Repeating the word roads isn't an argument.
Roads are demanded by consumers so a market will exist.
>>70454173
you are out of touch with the general consensus
>>70454173
He has schleroses multiple, you fucking retard. God, some of you are insuferable.
>>70454214
>libertarians wish for MORE advantages
And i wish a chocolate house. What matters is that the system you are defending would not give you more advantages
>>70442504
Prevention is key to any free society. If you were capable you would have had a contingency and have been economically viable. But you admit you're not capable and now you have an agenda to dissolve your guilt. Just admit libertarianism is good but you're too much of a scumbag to be consistent.
>>70454269
Of course he will. People are like that.
We have an expression here, ''it's easy to beat hawthorns with someone else's dick''. Most of /pol/ is like that.
Funny how ''nationalists'' and ''traditionalists'' feel zero empathy for their group.
its official libertards are shitty egomaniacs that know what they talk about.
>>70442504
Good argument for having health insurance.
Not an argument for why the state should provide health insurance.
>>70454516
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kZ5NGLM1k90
>>70454516
>He has schleroses multiple, you fucking retard. God, some of you are insuferable.
And? I might have cancer. What a convenient way to dismiss rational counter arguments.
>What matters is that the system you are defending would not give you more advantages
Yes, it would. Real competition in markets and less or no taxation is an advantage to everyone, except power hungry statists who wish to socially engineer.
>>70442504
Private enterprise used to take better and more efficient care of the worst off than the statw does. Since the end of the 1800s, the United States turned to an agenda of social justice. They replaced private chairty with welfare programs. They replaced EXTREMELY cheap free market health care with an economy destroying disfunction state controlled system. Social security has a horrendous rate of return compared to private retirement funds and is bankrupt by trilions of dollars. The list goes on. Is it really that hard to understand that people can be more charitable when the state doesn't take half your fucking income?
>>70454264
>the government must promise immortality
hoooo weeeeeee
>>70454516
>argues for whole thread with nothing but nonsensical MUH FEELINGS bullshit and makes an ass out of himself the whole time
Thank you for wearing the name of /leftypol/ proudly, comrade.
>>70442504
Not everyone is capable of anything.
Go fuck yourself.
>>70454487
see >>70454355
Roads alone demolished the entire concept of libertarian economics.
>>70454269
>thinking cancer can't be prevented.
>>70454173
don't forget that healthcare was at one point so cheap that doctors rallied to get the government to use their power of law(force) to regulate the market, because doctors didn't like how much competition there was to even get a position as a community servant for the organizations that poor people had created for each others benefit.
the AMA was created to destroy cheap healthcare.
the government intervention is why healthcare is so expensive nowadays, combined with the fact that it's just gotten a lot more advanced, and so there is so much more that can be done to help someone, with sophisticated techniques and technology.
>>70454356
>>that are?
do you just really love the government, or do you actually think that its not 90% waste and corruption?
how about we list things that the government is good at? that'd be a lot easier.
>>And what about justice system, what would a libertarian society do about it?
pretty much what we do now, minus private prisons? its funny that you mention the one thing that libertarians would RATHER have the government handle. the difference would be laws would be a lot more local and a myriad of downright tyrannical laws, such as prohibition of substances and objects would not be relevant.
>>70454516
the system i am defending would abnegate scores of disadvantages, which if you had been involved in business, would grasp that there are many of, and would allow people to be free to create systems that work for them on the basis of actual results and actual interests.
>>70454373
It's just a funny image little kid, don't get mad.
>I know I'm free to leave. So are you. Your point being?
If you are agansit our social contract, then leave. simple.
>Please back up this absurd claim.
They have states and classes. They are not communist by any definition
>>70454761
/leftypol/ != lefty/pol/
>>70453383
just google "community raises money".
The results are endless
>>70454373
>Please back up this absurd claim.
Both are basically national socialism, or at least USSR was during Stalin.
>muh empathies
>>70454859
>It's just a funny image little kid, don't get mad.
The irony in this statement.
>If you are agansit our social contract, then leave. simple.
The contract does not exist. I am against statist government, why should I leave because of that? Unless you're a mindless drone who agrees with absolutely everything your government does, why don't you leave too?
>>70454859
>>our
who is 'us'?
there is no social contract in a group of people who believe that the government does not need your permission or approval to use violence against you and create the world as they please.
do you have any idea what you're talking about?
you realize that you're considering what we have today to be a success?
congratulations on your happily victorious policy of forced mass immigration and total state surveillance and suppression of dissent to the plan of suicide for nations.
>>70455023
>I'm a superior being, I don't need anyone, people are my puppets, ugh if only government stopped harassing me and my ubermensch buddies on /pol/
>>70455022
National Socialism is an ideology of racial superiority, so no. Nazism and Communism are very similar though in that they are forms of collectivism, as are socialism and welfare statism.
>>70455042
>The contract does not exist.
It's the new leftist dogma, you have to believe in it or you're a heretic when it doesn't exist.
>>70455000
I don't see any for millions being raised for a single person getting sick.
>>70454811
>Says "Cancer can be prevented!"
>"B-but wait how do I have cancer!? I sucked 30 feet of Elephant dick daily and gargled 5.7 liters of Chimpanzee cum weekly! This can't be happening to me! Better get in line for my welfare check!"
Fuck off dude you're transparent as fuck.
>>70455139
>I'm an inferior being
>therefore you are OBLIGATED TO CARRY ME
>WHERE IS YOUR EMPATHY!?
>muh social contract
>>70455042
>Unless you're a mindless drone who agrees with absolutely everything your government does, why don't you leave too?
This tbqh sums up "social contract theory." It's ironic that an advocate of leftism is using it though, because it's wholly lifted out of the classical liberal tradition, something true leftists despise.
Marxists, socialists, and the like have no idea who they are anymore. They just know they don't like the status quo, and they want everyone to know how enlightened they are by simply disliking bad things.
>>70455163
Socialists think it's an easy way of shutting down arguments, because socialists are submissive towards power and assume that the word "contract", because it sounds official, will make us recoil in submission the same way it makes them. It's essentially psychological projection.
>>70446292
>ethods. However, I would not be able to survive without my government help. So then I realized there a thousands of people like me, who would die in a libertarian society. Maybe not in a libertarian utopia, but in a real life practical libertarianism. How do you justify that, unless you
sure bud
>>70446342
Non-libertarians are jokes
>>70454107
Yes, because the writers of the article of Communism are communists and therefore lack the ability to understand consequences of the abolition of the state. Like I said, without a state people will adopt a free-market system because it is founded upon voluntary win-win trade. Wikipedia isn't a holy book. If you use basic intuition you could figure this out for yourself, and not be well, a fucking communist. Most of these communists lack the contextual knowledge of economic laws, and this lack of context leads them down a dark path of irrationality.
>Marx predicted that communism would need a free market society first.
Marx also believes in the labor theory of value - which purports that value of a product is determined by the amount of labor necessary to produce it.
Reminder: Just say the word "Roads" to libertarians and they shit up. Never fails.
>>70454803
>>70455234
>>better let the government work hand in hand with corporations to prevent any real understanding of how cancer can be prevented and treated from getting out instead of letting people do what they wish so that anyone who discovers a preventative method against cancer can fearlessly market and advertise it, it's better if medical and pharmaceutical corporations can use government power to suppress that.
>>70455471
muh roads
>>70455551
Looks like someone believes every asinine conspiracy theory they read on /pol/.
>>70455471
it's been handled over and over again.
roads are not an issue. you are a cuck and your ideas are memes.
>>70455641
looks like someone actually thinks that the government has their best interest and thinks that corporations should be allowed to use legal violence against people.
>>70455234
Great straw man argument, anon. I guess you converted me to be a socialist.
Time to quit my job and apply for social security benefits because I have ADHD. You need to stay working though, because when needed Americans outweigh Americans paying into social security, then our utopia will degrade and crash and Bern.
>>70455346
Funny too how quick they will claim to adore the welfare state big government status quo they claim to hate when they are threatened by an ideology of freedom like Libertarianism or Anarcho Capitalism.
During WW2 both the Nazis and the Soviets remarked at how easy it was to convert a communist into a fascist and vice versa, but never a liberal into either. Liberals were the true ideological enemies of the collective ideologies of Nazism and Communism, since their individualist mindset meant they were a lost cause for conversion.
>>70442504
The cool thing about libertarianism is that it doesn't care whether or not you're "suffering," you still aren't permitted to steal from or enslave the rest of us.
>>70455157
National-socialism took a turn in that direction, but originally it was what is now called national Bolshevism.
Strasser brothers actually suggested an alliance with USSR.
>>70455359
I am a national socialist.
>>70455359
>Socialists think it's an easy way of shutting down arguments, because socialists are submissive towards power
I hate the gov as much as you guys do, just for different reasons.´
But nice strawman
>>70455658
>Roads are not an issue. I can't believe people still ask about this. It's been refused so many times. And so easily!
>I don't even feel like I need to explain it again here. Why enact the labor? I totally could explain it. But why should I have to??
>I can't believe people still ask this though. It's 2016!!!
I love watch libertarians shit themselves
>>70443583
Nailed it!
This is why all of the EU countries will have to secure their borders sooner or later, no matter what their cucked leaders say. You just can not have a welfare state AND open borders. End of story.
>>70455836
*but originally it was similar to what is now called NB
Strasserism hated Jews but it hated them from anti-capitalist perspective, not racial.
Also, don't forget Mussolini started as a socialist. Only Italian socialism wasn't nationalist enough for his taste.
>>70455836
Indeed. The fact that Nazism and Communism were so similar cements my belief in Individualism, the reverse of Collectivism.
>>70442504
Damn rand is a crazy lookin bitch
>>70455449
I am a natioanl socialist, not a commie.
>Most of these communists lack the contextual knowledge of economic laws, and this lack of context leads them down a dark path of irrationality.
It's crazy comming from a libertarian
>>70455907
>I hate the gov as much as you guys do, just for different reasons
Yet you keep saying I'm free to leave?
Pure hypocrisy.
National socialism is a form of socialism, yes. And?
>>70455918
If you need a road you will pay to use one. Next.
>>70455954
So you realized the dangers of extremism, so you went the other way, into another extreme?
You understood nothing my friend.
Extremism can be good for a limited period of time, but it becomes stale quickly.
Individual and collective interests need to be balanced in order to have a healthy society.
>>70456089
>I'm a NS
You believe Hitler did nothing wrong and that Jews must be gassed?
>>70456089
Libertarianism has by far the most solid economic grounding. Please explain one economic problem that libertarianism causes. I can explain many that government causes.
>>70456142
>If you need a road you will pay to use one. Next.
i don't have the money for it now what?
>>70456142
>If you need a road you will pay to use one.
Interesting. So in a city for example, how do i use all the roads to get in and out of a city? Does every road have a tollbooth?
>>70456089
>I have X political identity
>Y political identity is crazy
>Feels good to be X
What a lazy way to argue.
>>70456177
>Middle ground fallcy
Libertarianism isn't extreme at all.
Welfare statism bears a massive resmblance to Stalinism when you look closely.
>>70455918
it's been explained repeatedly. what happens here is you literally expect to be able to say one single word, "roads" and every time you say that, someone else has to type 300 words to explain how things work to you.
and since you're not interested in being correct or thinking about things or hearing what anyone has to say, you can say road road road road, and expect people to spend 45 minutes writing 1200 words to explain shit to you.
it's called being stupid. in order to express an actual idea, a concept that you wish to discuss, you need to put in some effort, and you also need make an attempt at disproving your own idea - part of debate is actually arguing the merits of the opposing position, and addressing them pre-emptively.
but instead you just say 'roads' because you're a shitposter who hasn't thought ANYTHING out and it's easy. super easy to say 1 word and expect an essay back. which lets be honest would do you no good at all, knowing as we do your MO.
>>inb4 "so... roads!"
>>70456332
You pool resources with the community to build the fucking road yourselves.
>>70456235
EMPATHY
M
P
A
T
H
Y
>>70456142
If you are so agasint the social contract that you want to abolish it, then leave. Somalia is a perfect place for you.
>>70456235
No, i don't agree with Hitler racial theories. I think jews can be valuable in our societies.
>>70456276
>solid economic grounding
>never been tried
>His based on economic theories, that have as much validity as sociology theories
>>70456276
Government causes problems but government also prevents and fixes problems you're oblivious about.
Libertarians basically go from premise that people will both act rationally and that people will respect libertarian ideals even if they don't get what they want.
Both are horrifically misguided opinions.
Now if that changed, libertarianism would make sense. Otherwise, it's just another form of utopia, like communism.
>>70456361
>>70456177
this. libertarianism is not an extreme ideology. it's highly normatized and centrist, and seeks to repair the damages that extreme government metastatization causes.
>>70456276
>Please explain one economic problem that libertarianism causes
Roads. And i don't need to say anything more
>>70455764
You're right. They abandoned the claim that welfare states were mere trifles given to keep the masses in check a decade or two before the collapse of the Soviet Union, once it became impossible to ignore the human suffering their champion states (USSR, Mao's China, etc.) had caused.
A true Marxist/communist/socialist is entirely against the welfare state, yet today they praise it. They also praise the middle class and say they'll fight for it (see Bernie Sanders in the US), which would make any other socialist in a time long gone to drag their heretical party member out into the street to be shot. Bernie even praises individuality and American ideas of individual success, in the ultimate sellout of the idea of the class struggle. They are no longer actual socialists but anti-status quo, and they gnash their teeth at things they don't understand or bother to understand with none of the intellectual or ideological rigor of their predecessors of the actual, true left.
Liberalism has pretty much won (even if in a bastardized form), but people are still upset with the status quo because they compare it to the unrealizable, impossible utopia Marx and the socialists promised them was theirs. So here we are, I guess.
>>70456332
>If I don't have the money to pay for something someone else should be forced to provide it for me
Childish mindset.
>>70456340
>What is numberplate reading technology
>What is auto pay
>What is an annual pass
You appear to lack any sort of imagination for anything other than the status quo.
>>70456089
>you
>criticizing *ANYONE* about knowledge of economics
>>70445938
How does universal healthcare harm economic freedom?
>>70456356
It's just a way t show them that their ad hominem are wrongs. My political views are not arguments.
>>70456524
>Abolish the government almost completely
>Not extreme
>>70456361
>Middle ground fallcy
It's not a fallacy. It's simply how it is.
>Welfare statism bears a massive resmblance to Stalinism
No it doesn't. I have no idea how can you compare a dictatorship with (often misguided) social policy.
>>70456402
Empathy makes a group stronger. That is, properly directed empathy. Empathy makes sense. Human is a social animal.
>>70456471
>No, i don't agree with Hitler racial theories
Okay then. But do you agree with Führerprinzip and shit like that?
