No liberals here?

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potentially good thread bump

1: do you think the US-Canada border should have a wall too?

2: He partly responsible for the conspiracy theory accusing Obama of being a secret muslim that was born in America, he wants to reinstate racial profiling against muslims and mexicans, and wants to ban all muslims from entering the US and thinks that most illegal immigrants are rapists and drug smugglers when most are just grape-pickers.

3: he's pretty phony and disingenuous himself. He flip flops on issues just as badly as Hillary Clinton and revises his life story and opinions to whatever is convenient for the given moment. And his optimistic dream of unifying the country is by demonizing literally everybody else.

Also, he IS the establishment. He's one of the billionaires responsible for bribing political candidates into certain viewpoints, he even funded Hillary and Cruz's campaigns.

>>67314928
>1: do you think the US-Canada border should have a wall too?
Why not? It might bother some wildlife migration, and there's not nearly the crime and illegal immigration coming from the north.

It's not a priority.
>he wants to reinstate racial profiling against muslims and mexicans,
Are "muslim" and "mexican" races all of a sudden?

> And his optimistic dream of unifying the country is by demonizing literally everybody else.
He hasn't demonized any American citizens, only foreigners, some people in the media, and now the Bernie commies who assaulted his rally.

>>67315355
>Why not? It might bother some wildlife migration, and there's not nearly the crime and illegal immigration coming from the north.
but won't not having a wall between the US and Canada mean that the United States isn't a country? And why do we need a wall to define borders?

>Are "muslim" and "mexican" races all of a sudden?
they're ethnicities

>He hasn't demonized any American citizens, only foreigners, some people in the media, and now the Bernie commies who assaulted his rally.
foreigners is what i meant when i said he's demonizing everybody else. he's uniting us by leading us to believe that everybody else is our enemy.

>>67314928

1. No. The number of illegal Canadian immigrants overstaying their visas is minimal. But I DO have to show my passport at the border and have a two-minute interview with DHS agents. I think it is a perfectly reasonable interaction for someone entering the country.

2. Islam isn't a race, so that isn't racism. As stupid and inane the birth certificate thing was, why didn't Obama show it immediately and put it all to bed instead of letting it drag out for over a year?

And illegal immigration has nothing to do with race. The majority of illegal immigrants come from Mexico, but Trump has not called for a ban on Mexicans. He's called for a ban on illegal immigrants.

3. Where has the funding for Trump's campaign come from, and who motivates him to say what he says? Is it corporate interests or his own beliefs?

He is NOT the political establishment. The political establishment is almost universally pro-war, pro-banker, pro-deficit spending, pro-cultural relativism, pro-globalism. Trump is none of these things.

>>67315693

The wall is his proposed method of enforcing the border. If the US had an immigration problem at the Canadian border, a wall would be an acceptable proposal.

Muslim is not an ethnicity. And actually, neither is Mexican. Most Mexicans have a hispanic ethnicity while most Muslims have an arabic ethnicity. But Islam is NOT an ethnicity.

>>67313717
>Borders
The opposition premise is that by establishing borders, there is an "us vs them" mentality which targets non-citizens as having less value as human beings. We're all equal now, remember? You can't have an interest in the health and well being of yourself and your people without extending that interest to everyone who can somehow show up in your vicinity. Less cynically, it's about providing all people with a happy, socially secure life within the states, regardless of immigration status.
>Racist
This is the big one I always here, and I'm assuming it stems from the original "muh mexicans" statement and the call to ban muslim immigration. "But muslim isn't a race, and he was referring to illegal immigrants as a whole!" Yeah I know, but the underlying principle is highlighting a group of "others" to which he can attach blame for the country's misfortunes. It's one of those things where you can defend his statements by arguing semantics and technically be right, but will never convince someone that they're incorrect about their original opinion because the intent is clear.
>optimism, non-pc
Empty optimism got us 8 years of "Hope". I really want to like trump because of how he shits on the standard PC culture narrative, but when I boil it down that's all he's going going for him. Even that is a problem though, because the unrestrained "go fuck yourself, i'm the best" attitude shows that he really doesn't care too much about the issues themselves (database of muslims? all options open. Endorsement from the KKK? The people love me. Stance change on abortion, shown in direct interviews from 5 years ago? It's all lies, they just don't like that I'm winning)

t. Jim Webb supporter

>>67315693
>but won't not having a wall between the US and Canada mean that the United States isn't a country?
Canadian nationals aren't regularly violating our border at a dangerous rate.
>And why do we need a wall to define borders?
They help when the border is being violated constantly.

>muslim is an ethnicity
no it isn't
>mexican is an ethnicity
It's a nation, we are allowed to not like people from some nations.

>he's uniting us by leading us to believe that everybody else is our enemy.
Some are our enemies, some are our rivals, some are allies who are still getting a better deal out of our partnerships than we are.
It's time to take a stand for our nation.

>>67316055
1: but if you think "Without a border, you don't have a country" justifies building walls on our borders, why is the US-Canada border excempt from a wall? Do you not believe that a border necessitates a wall then?

2: he treats islam as an ethnicity. and obama did release his birth certificate, but nobody (including Trump) believed it because they're dumbasses. also obama was reveling a lot in watching people ruin their reputations and revealing how stupid they can be.

3: the point is that he has been coercing politicians into his viewpoints for decades, and by running for president he is cutting out the middleman. his money comes from the profits of a corporation that he continues to profit from. how do you know he won't put personal corporate interest into how he spends his money?

and if he is anti-establishment, why has he spent so much of his money funding establishment candidates?

>>67316758

>us vs. them mentality

This is an asinine argument. When the US is trillions in debt and thousands of Americans are impoverished, the American people's first duty is to America's people, not anyone who might find themselves "in the vicinity" of an American

>providing all people with a happy socially secure life in the states, regardless of immigration status.

This is completely unsustainable, unmanageable, and unaffordable. Also an asinine suggestion. Does congress have to budget and write legislation with the entire world population in consideration?

>the other, and interpreting intent

The intent is clear, and it is not racist. He has reiterated dozens of times that he wants a legal path to citizenship for anyone who wants it. The essence is that they follow the legal route. As for the Muslim thing, radical Islam is literally the most violent force in existence right now. But not all Muslims are from the Middle east, or even arabic-looking. Many are European born, many are western-educated. He called for more scrutiny on Islamic immigrants and I don't necessarily agree with it, but it's not racism.

>empty optimism

That's a fair point. It's like he took a crash-course in how to be an opportunistic politician.

>>67316730
if you want to use an immigration problem as an excuse to build a wall then that's fine, i can argue about that later if you want. all my point right now is that "Without a border, you don't have a country" is a clinically retarded reason to build a 2,000 mile long wall.

and you can be as semantic as you want about ethnicities and whatnot, it doesn't change the point that he wants to ban 1/4 of the entire world population from entering the US just because of which god they believe in. we can call him a xenophobe then if you don't think that technically is racism.

>>67313717

I am mostly conservative, and you might not easily find unironic liberals here, so I'll do my best.

1. I blame the media. I could have sworn he has stated that he wants to build the wall with a giant opening so that legal immigration can flourish. But again, anything to diminish his platform, so let's shout "racist" over and over until it sticks. But either way, as a sovereign nation over its own lands, it should be able to facilitate who enters.

2. Let's just assume that Islamophobia and racism are interchangeable, since I assume he means that any person from the Middle East should be kept out for now. If someone pulls this shit, just tell them all about the immigration policies of their favorite gibsmedat president, FDR. Do I think it is wrong? A little, because the statement is so general, but we must be careful in importing people from a completely different culture.

3. If anything, I would say he is anti-establishment because he is narcissistic enough to believe that specifically his ideals are what's going to MAGA. He is pretty antagonistic in his speeches/debates (I am surprised Yeb hasn't hurt himself), but I do see his ability to inspire Americans without the feel-good aspect the Democratic party has.

Most of what liberals hear, in my opinion, is probably through a very biased source of media. The opinion on him, despite being more of an in-between of Left/Right, is probably due to his unwillingness to bend over backwards for certain groups ("black lives matter. White lives matter. All lives matter" and then Trump proceeded to call BLM, and general Political Correctness out).

Not super right wing, not a liberal, but I hope this helps. I can take on a more liberal stance just for the sake of this thread, but again, this is /pol/ and I hope you weren't expecting unironic liberals.

>>67317407

1.The southern border has a serious illegal immigration problem. The Canadian border does not. I said above that if it became a problem on the Canadian border wall would be a reasonable proposal to enforce the existence of the border.

And just to clarify, there IS a border between the US and Canada and I have to show a passport and speak to a DHS agent every single time I enter the United States.

2. >Obama was reveling in people being stupid

Is that really why you think he withheld his birth certificate? To have a laugh?

>treats Islam as an ethnicity

Please explain how one treats a religion as an ethnicity. Do they do they by being racist against the religion the same way people are racist against ethnicities?

3. >coerced politicians

This is an important point, regardless of politics. You must understand that a corporation and its board of directors and its executives and its managers are obligated to do what is best for the corporation. Their duty is to the shareholders. If they do something that intentionally damages the share prices or the performance of the company, they can be justifiably fired and even sued. So that who they answer to. Politicians, however, answer to their constituents. They are bound by their oaths to the constitution and are legally obligated to fairly and legally execute the authority of their offices.

So when we have a bad situation such as a corporation attempting to bribe or lobby a politician to legislate in the corporation's favour, the responsibility is ENTIRELY on the politician to resist that and faithfully uphold the constitution and protect their constituents. This is why Halliburton isn't evil for profiting from war. But Dick Cheney IS evil for serving corporate interests over the interests of the people of America.

>he might put personal corporate interest into how he spends his money

What money? The president doesn't write laws, he signs or vetoes the laws that Congress and the Senate pass.

>>67318095

No, his argument wasn't "without a wall, we aren't a country." He was saying the existing border might as well not exist because it is not guarded and protected in any meaningful way. That's how thousands upon thousands of illegal immigrants enter the country every year. So he has proposed a wall in order to protect the border.

>>67317914
>it's an asinine argument
To a pragmatist, obviously you're right. The problem is that all liberals and 99% of people born after '85 fully embrace the "no human is illegal" mentality where setting a qualifier to receiving care is akin to taking food out of a child's mouth. Can we afford it? Nope. Can you explain that to one of these people? Nope.

>Have 100k to spend on treatment
>100 cases of malaria costing 1k each to cure
>1 case of HIV costing 100k to manage
>save 100 malaria patients
>outcry at having sentenced HIV patient to death, lawsuits, protests, demands for "more money for dem programs"

Society is ruined, logic is dead.

>>67318709
This is pretty good. I would post more liberal explanations.


But part of being a liberal is the human empathic element of things. That is something more classically logical and intelligent conservatives side line, but not something liberals do. That comes from Mark Twain and his ideals of love conquering racism in Huckleberry Finn.

>>67319521

>malaria vs. hiv

See, that treads very close to utilitarianism. And utilitarianism, IMO, is more of a left-wing mentality. Their policies seem more likely to reduce people to statistics, race, gender, age, etc. and calculate what they are entitled to in society.

>>67318095
as a side note, the ban he called for came on the heels of the study which listed large percentages of muslim-american respondents as desiring sharia law to take precedence over US law, as well as a 20% contingent who either supported or did not oppose the actions of jihadists.

I looked at the data from the study because the numbers sounded stupidly high for what he was saying but it checked out. The values benefit from the specific groupings he does, as well as a variance in how people define "jihad" but the basic claims he makes are true.

>>67318883
1: then why can't we just put in a border control system similar to canada's if it works so well?

2: as i said in a different post let's just call trump a xenophobe and avoid this semantic bullshit

3: well now Trump is becoming a politician so it's his responsibility to somehow not give a shit if his personal policies hurt or help his own corporation.

and what i'm suggesting is that trump will
>make executive orders that have positive corporate benefits
>appoint justices that will keep citizen's united and other pro-corporate laws in place
>veto bills that cut into his profit and sign pro-corporate ones
you see? he still has a lot of power even without writing laws himself.

>>67320211

I'm pretty sure that's the existing system on the Mexican border too. Obviously, it's ineffective.

2. If he was legitimately a xenophobe, he would be opposed to a LEGAL path to citizenship. He has repeated stated his support for it.

3. He could very well do that. Which would make him the same as the past x number of presidents and congressmen who've taken donations and kickbacks.

>>67313717
You're better off asking /b/

That placed has currently been under assault by redditors

>>67320211
>1: then why can't we just put in a border control system similar to canada's if it works so well?
Because the problems and people are different.

>>67319811
>utilitarianism is left wing
Why do you say that? From my experience, the left wing point of view is to say that everyone is entitled to everything. The RESULT of these policies is that the bean-counters at the end of the day are required to start putting together systems of qualifiers to cut down on total expenditures so that the "money for all" programs can survive the inevitable flood of applicants. Utilitarianism/Pragmatism is the last refuge of the left wing's supporting staff, not their original mindset.

>>67321164

Fair enough.

>>67320596
1: "I'm pretty sure" isn't a good way to start any argument. do more research and come back.

2: this has nothing to do with citizenship, this has to do with him wanting to ban 1/4 of the world population from entering the US because of their religion.

3:
>Which would make him the same as the past x number of presidents and congressmen who've taken donations and kickbacks.

so basically an establishment politician?

>>67321073
just because they're different problems and people doesn't mean they can't be solved with the same solution. try harder.

>>67319540
>>67313717

I got this. Without being "hurr durr racism you racist bigot burn in hell"

1. Yes, but at this point, do we, with out ever corrupt government, really getting the say as to who gets into this country or not, or is it all about who has the most money to bribe officials? Sure we can get rid of the criminals, but a wall would also diminish the American dream for hardworking, goodnatured people. If we could make it easier to become a legal immigrant in America, maybe it wouldn't be a problem.

2. Xenophobia, racism, ethnocentrism, whatever you want to call it, doesn't change the fact that it is potentially discrimination based on appearance. Trump himself may not be racist, but that doesn't necessarily mean his supporters won't take what he says and use it as an excuse to be racist/xenophobic. Besides, these refugees are partially an American caused problem. Nobody can say we haven't been knee deep in unnecessary foreign entanglement, and I can see how someone would think it is a responsibility of America to ease the suffering of the immigrants.

3. But, he is still big business. Fed with a silver spoon. If he started everything from scratch, that would be something, but he was pretty well off before he started his empire. He has contributed to the establishment, he has promoted the establishment because it worked for him. Sure, let's make America great again, but is this really the right approach? I have listened to his debates and speeches, and it is filled in, just as well, with putting others down and gloating.

>>67321469

1. I've never crossed that border. But whatever system they have is obviously ineffective.

2. Islam is not a racism. Islamaphobia isn't racism.

3. If he ended up doing that after being elected, then Yes. If your argument is that he's probably going to do something when he's elected, therefore he's an establishment politician, then that excludes pretty much everyone. The fact is, he hasn't taken money and kickbacks from corporations during his candidacy. His money and his ideas are his own and those of regular voters. The same can't be said of Hillary or Cruz.

>>67321910
1: if you know jackshit about this issue then you shouldn't be saying a damn thing about it.

2: dude we're talking about xenophobia now not racism. we went over this. tell me why he isn't a xenophobe for thinking Obama's a secret Kenyan Muslim and why he thinks it's a good idea to ban 2 billion people from the US.

3: the reason Trump doesn't need to take donations from corporations is because he owns the corporation he gets his money from. my problem isn't about whether he's taking money from others, my problem is that he's going to act with the goal of maximizing profits for his own corporation rather than bettering the lives of american people.

>>67321648
>just because the problem is different doesn't mean the solution isn't the same
wut

Putting out a dish and a "take one" sign is an acceptable form of distribution for Halloween candy in an upscale neighborhood. This does not translate to distributing WHO rations in a war torn country.

>>67321469
>2: this has nothing to do with citizenship, this has to do with him wanting to ban 1/4 of the world population from entering the US because of their religion.

more like that they're 4,000 times more likely to commit a terrorist attack than any other group of american

>>67313717
>Why is he wrong to invoke this fact when talking about illegal immigration?
It is viewed that he vastly overstates the danger of a problem whose impact has declined in the last 6 years.

>what makes Trump racist?
His failure to immediately denounce the KKK is widely viewed as disgusting. He has since disavowed and denounced them. His statements about immigrants are inflammatory and considered racist. The birther movement is considered by some to be racist.

>Can you admit that these things are a breath of fresh air to see in a major political candidate?
I'm refraining from engaging in my personal opinions on this matter. I wish only to give answers that are 100% honest from the liberal view based on what is observed.

>>67322610
>good idea to ban 2 billion people from entering the US
see
>>67320148
I'm not agreeing with his conclusions, and obviously a blanket ban based on something that insignificant is idiotic, but I could put together a defensible argument on his behalf based on the figures he was using.

>>67322610

1. You've strayed so far from the original post that I'm not even sure what your point is.

2. Dude, I asked that a liberal tell me what makes Trump racist. You have failed to do so. So shut the fuck up.

3. How does that make him any worse than any major party candidate of the last thirty-five years?? Getting back to my original point: he says what he says because he believes it. He is not carrying the water for some faceless corporate oligarch, unlike the other major candidates besides Bernie.

>>67313717
he triggers liberal feels.
sjw are programed to spout racist whenever they feel threatened.
REALIZE THIS- they are shitting their pants right now. they will say anything to evoke others to join them. the writing is on the wall and they are literally chimping like a toddler having a tantrum

Trump may not be Adolf Hitler "racist" but he is certainly a massive sexist bigot with a bad case of Islamophobia.

>>67323070

>overstates the danger
I think it's a baseless assertion that he's overstated the illegal immigration problem

>failure to immediately denounce

This is where I differ from pretty much everyone I've ever talked to. Same thing happened to Ron Paul in 08. Some prominent racist donated to his campaign and Ron Paul didn't return the money. He said, "Well, the money's a lot better in my hands than in some racist's hands." And further reiterated that nothing in his policies, voting record, or past behaviour indicated racist tendencies or beliefs.

I believe it's a similar thing with Trump: he is not required to denounce every bad person who supports him. He has, as far as I can tell, nothing in common with David Duke.

And two quick points about David Duke: he left the kkk over 35 years ago because he himself is non-violent while the kkk is not. His endorsement of Trump was based on Trump's promise to deport all illegal immigrants. Is deporting illegal immigrants a radical position?

Thank-you for responding.

>>67323967
You're welcome.

>>67323308
1: i'm pointing out that you aren't qualified to say anything about the mexican border because you don't know anything about it, and therefore can neither dispute nor agree with Trump's points on this issue.

2: he isn't necessarily racist for semantic reasons but is most certainly xenophobic. do you agree or disagree? or are you gonna masturbating to your pointless minor victory?

3: he isn't carrying the water for a faceless corporate oligarch because he IS the corporate oligarch. it's worse than politicians that take donations because it's HIS company. What he believes is that he won't make as much money if he does anything that'll cut into the profits of his own corporation, and therefore will vote with that in mind. This may not be technically worse, but I struggle to see how it's a remotely good thing if I don't like politicians having any kind of corporate interest.

>>67324157
>your pointless minor victory?

Trump is a nationalist. This means he prioritizes the interests of the AMERICAN people over foreigners. This is a GOOD quality in a president. Being concerned with the affects that foreigners will have on the country is a natural consequence of being a nationalist.

There's a reason the media blackballs him as a racist instead of using the word xenophobic. They mean different things and have different implications about how he would act as president.

>>67324157
For the record Canadians don't bring drug problems either, most druglords are illegals but not all illegals are drug lords. But we can't afford to give any more than we are bro, that's the main point here. Inherently there is nothing wrong with helping viable citizens out regardless of race but for one thing, at the moment, we don't have the money to give out, and also those immigrants that don't feel like integrating are stealing. No two ways about it

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>>67313717
>Canadian flag
Every time

>>67324157

In the OP I stated three points about Donald Trump that I agreed or disagreed with. The first point was that "Without a border, you don't have a country" and further elaborated that an ineffectively enforced border is almost the same as having no border. I didn't mention a wall, I didn't mention Mexicans. I said: Why is an enforced and definable border wrong? And you replied with: YOU DON'T KNOW ENOUGH ABOUT THE MEXICAN BORDER TO HAVE AN OPINION ON BORDERS.

2. I said "Trump as frequently been called racist. Specifically: what makes Trump racist?"

You replied with: "He's a xenophobe. We're talking about xenophobia now!" Why did you move the goal posts?

3. What do presidents vote on? Do they have a seat in congress? No, they don't. They either sign or veto the house and the senate's bills. If they veto it, it can still be passed into law. So please elaborate on how President Trump will vote to increase his company's profits.

>>67314928
Muslim is not a race.

Mexican is not a race

>>67315693
Muslim is not an ethnicity

Mexican is not an ethnicity

>>67323886
Sexist? Do you even know who's going to run his empire in his stead while he's off Making America Great Again? And a quick look at global events is all you'd need to realize that Islam is a cancer of this planet and completely incompatible with Western culture.