Mes chers amis françaises,
I have just received a notification on my LeMonde.fr app, which quotes:
>François Hollande va proposer une révision de la Constitution
>Le 16 novembre 2015 à 16h45
>Le président a expliqué devant le Congrès vouloir modifier la Constitution pour permettre aux pouvoirs publics d'agir conformément à l'Etat de droit contre le terrorisme de guerre".
>Il souhaite ouvrir la possibilité de déchoir de leur nationalité les Français ayant une double nationalité.
Apologies to the non-Francophones; I have no balls to translate. Go and fetch Google if you want the whole content.
>Basically, Hollande says he wants to change the Constitution as a response to what he dubbed war terrorism... this may entail the possibility to rip people with double nationality of their citizenship.
Now, I am not a conspiracy theorist and will not support shitty assumptions. I truly believe attacks came from Daesh-inducted Frenchmen who agreed to stir troubles in their homecountry.
Nevertheless, I found it very convenient that, as soon as SHTF, governments immediately put hand to the constitution.
As if, every time you have an issue, the best course of action is to diminish citizens' rights. Shit happens? Time to reduce your rights, assholes!
Truth is that citizenship by birth or by descent are still A-tier, whereas cit. by naturalization is usually subject to criticism and is always targeted... as if *that* was the problem.
I mean, you are a F government and you have an ongoing crisis; do you think it is time to scrap your foundational paperworks (aka Constitution) or are you going to do something useful such as
>"chasing those guys",
>"put them on trial",
>"trial them as nationals if they are nationals"
It's too easy to make you a citizen and then waive it whenever you commit a crime. If anything, don't make me citizen in first place. Gimme a long-term permit. But once I'm a citizen, please assume your responsibility and put me on trial as such.
what's wrong with stripping terrorists of their citizenship?
>>55899228
This, what the fuck OP?
>>55899228
Nothing wrong with that.
>>55899078
fuck you - srsly!
>>55899275
OP is a mudshit/libshit, quite obviously.
Or a paid shill, /pol/ has been heavily infiltrated.
France, it sounds stupid but don't do this.
This is how america fell off the bandwagon and became the mememachine it is today with "freedom".
Stay a proper free republic - so you have something worth fighting them for.
>>55899078
Paki living in only western countries
lol
Algeria will be flooded with Jihadi's. It is at least one way to clean up France.
>>55899228
He doesn't say "terrorist" he said people who are a threat to France, which will include nationalist groups who disrupt the "live together" by not liking that French people are killed on our soil by terrorist.
>Daesh
Back to plebbit
>>55899441
Don't most countries have the right to revoke citizenship of their own citizens even original citizens if they were proven to working with their enemy? I don't see how this move break any rights, if someone is working against his own country and committing terror attacks against its civilians, he's no longer a citizen of that country but an enemy. It is simple
>mfw all jews are double citizens.
YESSSSSSSSSSSSSS.
We will use it well hollande kek.
>>55899228
>>55899275
>>55899295
I find it incoherent.
If you are, say, only American, then you are going to be tried as an American.
Instead, if you are both American & something else... suddenly they kick you out of the country.
So, basically, citizenship by naturalisation is no citizenship at all. It's like a VISA.
I know most of you on /pol/ don't see this issue, but it looks to me to be clearly illegitimate.
Basically, this means that a baby born in the U.S. will stay in the U.S. even if they are terrorists, *unless* they have another nationality. In that case, they will be deported.
There is no logic in this. This goes beyond all logic.
Suppose one is Russian and acquires Canadian citizenship. Then he commits a crime against Russia. Suddenly, he is ripped of Russian citizenship... WTF?
So, now, people with double citizenship get more punishment for the same crimes, whereas people with unique citizenship do not get this additional punishment.
That's unfair at best.
>>55899741
And here I was supporting your sorry ass >>55899735
Fuck you France, don't let them come here ;_;
>>55899441
>get a load of this cvck
>>55899741
>the possibility to rip people with double nationality of their citizenship.
>possibility
jews will stay, you can bet on this
>>55899304
>>55899441
Yeah, France. Take me seriously for fuck's sake.
Half of my OP is about ripping double citizens... but let's talk of the other half: the fact governments go and change Constitutions as soon as SHTF... how fucking convenient this is! Using crisis and deaths as a leverage to reduce people's rights, etc.
Seriously. That's so fucked up. Hollande should be ashamed of what he proposed. He's a fascist in thinking that.
>>55899735
I know this sounds stupid and it's a fallacy but because France doesn't have this starting now is a slippery slope. Terror laws can quickly be used to stop "nasty right wing scum" as is happening in germany... France needs to protect itself by fighting for maximal autonomy and not allowing any Islamic footholds within power. That way it keeps its national values to heart, something Europe as a whole needs to do.
>>55899810
Dude, we're one of the only state to recognize yours.
Being able to expel and seize the ownership of specific kikes if good for you too.
>>55899796
>So, now, people with double citizenship get more punishment for the same crimes, whereas people with unique citizenship do not get this additional punishment.
It's not, since people with sole citizenship will be stateless when having their citizenship revoked, while double citizenship holders have one other country to have rights in, and since they proved to be disloyal to their new country, I see no reason why they should remain citizens.
Just don't bring jews here k?
>>55899810
>>55899735
>hover over flag
>it's not jordan
>it's palestine
>>55899810
we all know what to do with them, right?
>>55899723
I use the word Daesh because, on France24, commentators said that we shouldn't use ISIL since this would reinforce Daesh's propaganda that wnats ISIL to be identified with all mudslimes.
>>55899228
>>55899275
More like what's the point
Terrorist should be killed, not rid of their nationality or other useless shit
>>55899869
Nope, we will leave them no choice but aliyah or whatever it's called.
step one: remove special protection from their schools.
There is no step 2.
>>55899735
>Don't most countries have the right to revoke citizenship of their own citizens even original citizens if they were proven to working with their enemy?
No. Some countries do.
But if you are Australian born and have no dual citizenship and are a terrorist on behalf of another country (assuming such country is internationally recognized) they are going to go hard on you but they are *not* going to make you un-Australian.
>>55899796
>Instead, if you are both American & something else... suddenly they kick you out of the country.
exactly
if you are french and iraqi and they find you guilty of terrorism, they want to be able to strip you of your french right to waste millions in court fees, so that they can easily and efficiently deport you back to iraq where you will hang
this is all about making it economically efficient to kill terrorists.
good stuff
>>55899723
>>55899994
Daesh makes ISIS butthurt cause it denies their right to be a country
ISIS makes muzzies in general butthurt cause it assimilates the group with all of islam
I propose using Daesh when talk directly to ISIS, and using ISIS when talking about it to average muslims
>>55900065
I was talking about the constitution reform of hollande but yeah, I like your step 2
>>55899994
Daesh was made up by socialist kek in hope we wouldn't associate terrorism and Islam.
It's funny because terrorism IS Islam, if you were to behead the saudi and qatari, Islam would fell apart quickly.
>>55899962
O-okay, Pierre
>>55899909
I understand what you mean, but at the same time if this move were to be made temporary and for the sake of getting rid of these terrorists, I don't see the problem.
>>55899994
> since this would reinforce Daesh's propaganda that wants ISIS to be identified with all mudslimes.
They don't need you to pamper to them. They already did.
All mudslimes are identified with this agenda unless publicly speaking against it and renouncing/reforming Islam.
>>55899078
He just wants to include terrorist attacks under the same category as military attacks.
So the French military can respond to them.
He's not giving himself or his party more power.
>>55899969
>It's not, since people with sole citizenship will be stateless when having their citizenship revoked, while double citizenship holders have one other country to have rights in, and since they proved to be disloyal to their new country, I see no reason why they should remain citizens.
I am afraid you don't get the point, Palestine.
Hollande did not say they are going to pass a law that allows to rip *all* Frenchmen of citizenship (if they are terrorists).
He wants to pass a constitutional rule that empowers the government during a state of emergency, and, among the various new powers, there is the one that allows them to rip *only dual-citizens* of their citizenship.
This means those with single citizenship are safe from this punishment.
>>55900246
If that means the legion etrangere rainding muslims ghetto, then I'm all for it.
>>55899991
I see
>>55900097
Both methods have their advantages and disadvantages tbf
So, I am kind of in the middle about this
>>55899228
>what's wrong with stripping terrorists of their citizenship?
You mean whoever the government says are terrorists.
>>55899078
Fuck off Mohammed. Go back to your shitty third world hell hole of a country.
>>55899078
wtf do we really have to change the constitution just for that shit ?
>>55900196
Because in leftie europe that isn't how things happen. People use this power and think they have to fight every injustice - the precedent it sets is appalling and should be fought. If he finds a way to set more strict anti terrorism without attacking the constitution then that's fine.
>>55900269
>the government during a state of emergency, and, among the various new powers, there is the one that allows them to rip *only dual-citizens* of their citizenship.
>This means those with single citizenship are safe from this punishment.
As I said before, if they were to make this only temporary for this particular case, I am okay with it. Anyone who joins ISIS should be revoked residence on Earth, not just France
>>55900140
So, suppose you were born in Canada and acquire Italian citizenship.
Now, suppose you commit terrorism in Canada on behalf of Switzerland.
Is Canada going to take away your Canadian citizenship?
...and what if you weren't Italian citizen? Would they take away your Canadian citizenship anyway? I strongly doubt.
This unfolds the illogicity of the proposed change to French constitution. This is just propaganda to get relected, because they are afraid Le Pen is going to gagner les elections if socialists like Hollande do not play the bad cop.
>>55900354
>If that means the legion etrangere rainding muslims ghetto
I think that's what it means, yes.
Like what happened in America after the Boston marathon bombing: military going door to door to find the terrorists.
>>55900176
>>55900195
>>55900235
Look, my dear Frenchmen... fact is I used the term Daesh because I heard it often on the French media I have watched in the past days.
So fuck you. I thought it was a common term among other Frenchmen. Now you come at me and say it's a bullshit term -- I thought I was using a term you were familiar with!
Another question -why does France ever take refugees when they can legally enter France by showing they care by fighting in the foreign legion?
Seriously shouldn't all refugees not women and children should have to serve the country first and foremost?
>>55900527
Let's be realistic: the terrorists aren't Italian, they are Muslims.
And the vast majority of Muslims in Europe have dual citizenship.
>>55900246
>He's not giving himself or his party more power.
We'll see. It wouldn't be the first time a government rides the wave of terrorism to toughen up and waive some of their citizenship rights.
>>55900444
I understand what you mean, but my hate for ISIS is making me more agreeable taking everything away from them. Is it legal to make a temporary change to the constituion that's only vaild for a period of time and continuously monitored by NGO's, independent judges and a special court?
>constitution
More like c.uckstitution.
>>55900356
>So, I am kind of in the middle about this
Are you Middle-East about this? Woa.
>>55900774
>>55899078
>Il souhaite ouvrir la possibilité de déchoir de leur nationalité les Français ayant une double nationalité.
SHOTS FIRED FRANCOIS
>>55900429
I don't know, Frenchmen. You tell me. You're in France. That's what I read on your news.
If I were you, I would be careful to follow unbiased news and try to understand *what* changes they want to make... otherwise they may end up doing something you don't like.
>>55900508
>if they were to make this only temporary for this particular case, I am okay with it
I disagree.
Constitutional changes shouldn't be "temporary" or "ad hoc". That's the reason of my OP's big WTF reaction.
>>55900739
I have no idea, just a reminder that Hitler stayed in power by using an emergency piece of legislation to prevent elections "temporarily". Imagine that but with an SJW goverment fighting all injustice. The end (Killing isis) does not justify the means (risk of complete destruction of countries identity and control by less than friendly governments in the future).
But I think we can all agree France might need to go a bit harder against terrorists - perhaps GCHQ or MI5 types looking into potential threats.
>>55900403
It says people with double nationality.
Dual citizenship is by definition dual loyalty IMO and shouldn't exist in the first place.
>>55900648
Daesh is insulting to Muslims.
Officially it's an abbreviation, but it sounds rude in Arabic.
That's why he doesn't want you to use it.
>it sounds similar to the Arabic words Daes, "one who crushes something underfoot", and Dahes, "one who sows discord".[36][59] ISIL reportedly uses flogging as a punishment for those who use the name in ISIL-controlled areas.
I say fuck that Muslim, call it Daesh.
>>55900656
>Another question -why does France ever take refugees when they can legally enter France by showing they care by fighting in the foreign legion?
Apparently, French legion has more selective admissions than you think.
>>55899078
Well, that sounds good except it doesn't from the mouth of a social democrat, especially not Hollande. Muslims were cheering in the street when this guy got elected, he will probably use this to somehow kuck the French
>>55899909
god I can't tell you how much I hate this "slippery slope" argument. you just sound like one of those old people who still think that trying weed for one time instantly makes you a drug addict for life. That's not how the world works.
>>55900947
>Dual citizenship is by definition dual loyalty IMO
To be fair: they don't have a choice.
Countries like Turkey and Morocco don't allow their subjects to denounce their citizenship.
>>55899078
See the sept 11th and the patriot act, went from introduction to signing in less than a week. The bill was already written and ready to go before the attack.
>>55900944
>I have no idea, just a reminder that Hitler stayed in power by using an emergency piece of legislation to prevent elections "temporarily".
This.
This summarizes a good share of my OP.
>>55899078
So he's going to able to ban most jewish people of France, as they ALL have Israel and France citizenship.
>>55899909
>Terror laws can quickly be used to stop "nasty right wing scum"
It was clear in his speech he will target political dissident too, because they're "a threat to France".
>>55901038
How's it working out in Germany? Stifling any dissent is no freedom, people should only be stopped when they pose a threat of imminent harm, but hey getting locked up because you said rude words on 4chan against a certain group of people seems fair.
>>55899441
Meh it's going to be like last time, politics are going to use this oportunity to pass every anti freedom bill they have been thinking about
>>55900944
I see
>>55900964
>Daesh is insulting to Muslims.
>Officially it's an abbreviation, but it sounds rude in Arabic.
As I said, I took it from French media in which some commentators (one of which was muslim-friendly) said they preferred Daesh to ISIS in order to defeat their pan-muslim propaganda.
I thus apologize, I thought I was using a meaningful term.
>>55901038
>current year
>le weed argument
>>55901123
Exactly what I was thinking at.
Somebody quoted Hitler, but it is the recent examples of "surfing the crisis to change Constitution" that scare me.
>>55901242
Read the rest of my post.
>>55901171
there are no anti terror laws that would prevent right wing groups from doing anything in germany. if they are peaceful and don't practice hate speech that provokes people to kill minorities then they can do whatever the fuck they wanna do. So tell me which terror laws are used to eliminate right wing groups in germany ? I am curious to hear it.
>>55899078
kek butthurt muslim detected
It's the best way to deal with these wannabe jihadis, you want to spread islam and shit on the very same country you live in,
you don't get to mooch off of welfare and our benefits
>>55901360
Sorry... I clicked you but wanted to reply to the French ones who told me not to use the term.
I screwed up.
>>55901123
These changes are nothing like the patriot act.
Patriot act was hundreds of documents.
This is changing a few lines in the constitution. (a living document in most countries, so not such a big deal)
>>55899078
>As if, every time you have an issue, the best course of action is to diminish citizens' rights.
>diminish citizens' rights
By sticking it to cancerous dual citizenship types? Nice try.
He's out to reduce the rights of the rats out to ruin western countries. He's not there to harm actual French people.
>>55901423
Write something negative of nonwhites, Muslims or deny the holocost and you can go to prisom.-
People are sent to prison for fucking posts on facebook.
>>55899735
>implying palestine is a country
>>55901472
So, let's hope this happens:
>Canada goes through another crisis
>You move to Australia
>You marry, you become Australian citizen
>SHTF in Canada
>You are wrongly accused
>They take away your Canadian citizenship
>You spend most of your life in jail in Canada
>Australia is trying to pass the same law, so you cannot move back there.
You're fucked up.
>>55901566
only if they practice hatespeech not if they are voicing their opinions in a civil manner. if you call for a genocide against a specific race ofc you are punished for that. but like I said if you don't practice hatespeech there is nothing to fear.
>>55901669
It doesn't matter if it's in a civil manner.
http://europe.newsweek.com/former-german-lawyer-imprisoned-holocaust-denial-second-time-309725
>>55901669
>>55901756
he denied the holocaust dude. how the fuck is that a civil manner ? he was spreading false information which promotes the nazi ideology. that is not a civil manner whatsoever.
>>55901535
>By sticking it to cancerous dual citizenship types? Nice try.
I hold both Euro and Australian citizenship and I still regard as abominable the idea a country will hit hard on dual citizens.
If French people discover the terrorists were French citizens, they should not dismiss this as a "migrants' problem". They should treat it as an internal issue: why are our citizens (our electors) attacking us?
Focussing on dual citizenship will just shift responsibility, which is very convenient if you don't want to admit to ourself: the terrorist was one of us.
It is conceptually easier to say: the terrorist was never a true Frenchman. His citizenship was just a joke.
Too easy to disavow your own citizens whenever they commit acts of protest against the government. Of course, I condemn the use of violence, yet I think these terrorists may have been citizens and just that (possibly misled or inducted by a foreign country... but still citizens, still French).
I know that for the French is now hard to admit it was other French who did it. But let's face reality: this is likely to have been an attack of French on French with the excuse of war in a foreign country.
>>55901423
http://www.dutchnews.nl/news/archives/2015/11/twenty-arrests-at-pegida-demonstration-in-utrecht/
http://www.dutchnews.nl/news/archives/2015/10/six-arrested-during-pegida-demo-in-utrecht-face-charges/
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/feb/01/pegida-germanys-useful-idiots
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/germany/11943492/Warnings-over-resurgence-of-German-far-Right-movement-Pegida-sparked-by-refugee-crisis.html
None of these people hurt anyone, in the first two people were arrested for not having I.D. From other posters i've heard supporting "far right" groups in Germany risks your employer being inclined towards ending your contract.
You can't just stifle dissent, it's wrong. The ones who plot violence and are about to do an attrocity should be stopped, protesting and complaining is feeble but legal.
>>55901669
Also this arguement if you nothing to hide you have nothing to fear is stupid as both good and legal are subjective and relativistic. A woman dressed normally in Europe would be arrested in Saudi Arabia for "breaking the law".
>>55901860
Have you even seen the speech? There was nothing uncivil about it. It was spoken in more or less the same language as a lawyer would speak during a law class.
>>55901934
this
>It is conceptually easier to say: the terrorist was never a true Frenchman. His citizenship was just a joke.
i couldn't have say it better
>>55901934
>Euro citizenship
>>55901964
>if you nothing to hide you have nothing to fear is stupid as both good and legal are subjective and relativistic
In fact. I agree with this.
E.g. they keep reducing our Internet rights, and the best argument you hear is that: what do you have to hide? Why does this bother you?
My answer: then why don't you plant fucking cameras in my bedroom to see how I cum when I wank?
>>55902201
I cannot view the image. Do you want a pic of my passport? Of course I am not sayin' which country I'm from, but you can guess by considering which Europeans moved to Australia and when they did it.
>>55901981
ok let me tell you this again HE DENIED THE HOLOCAUST. you can't deny the fucking holocaust in a civil manner you are purposely spreading wrong information to lure people into the hands of neonazis. it doesn't matter if he talks like a lawyer, he denied one of the worst crimes against humanity that is hatespeech.
>>55901964
>During her speech Chohan spoke of the ‘massive inbreeding’ brought by Islamic culture and said this inflicts ‘great damage on their intellectual and mental capacity’ making Muslims unsuitable for work, the Volkskrant reports.
you call that civil discussion ?
>One of the banners spotted by ANP reporters stated ‘Koran is poison’. Another said that ‘Islamisation is EU-thanasia’. Both pro-Pegida and their opponents were among those arrested, ANP said.
that is not a discussion that is spreading hate.
>>55901934
You won't lose your dual citizenship unless you commit or help commit a fucking terrorist attack. I think that should left you out of it, won't it?
>>55902327
There is no such thing as European Citizenship, despite what EU shell want to happen
>>55902074
>>It is conceptually easier to say: the terrorist was never a true Frenchman. His citizenship was just a joke.
>i couldn't have say it better
Very well.
Now, let's assume:
>Algerian granpa moved to France in the 20s.
>He has a son and both of them fight WW2
>They become freedom fighters and kick Nazi arses
>His son moves to Paris and has a kid
>Kid grows up in France, moves to Algeria and fights for the French during war in Algeria
>Family stays in Algeria for a while, but then moves to France
>Basically, they are French in all respects...
>...up until their last descendent...
>...who is 29 y.o...
>...who grew up in France...
>...holds dual citizenship...
>...eats baguettes and asiettes...
>...drinks French wine...
>...speaks French as a native, went to French school...
>...made it to prépas Henri IV...
>...fucked French women...
>...this dude, who is French to the bone...
>...gets caught in the Daesh thing.
>Deludes himself his Algerian-islamic pride has been betrayed.
>Thinks his ancestors were forced to fight for France and were exploited.
>Ends up hating the country because of ISIS ideology.
>Commits mass murder.
At the end of the story, even if this dude holds dual citizenship, would you still claim his citizenship was a joke? He wasn't naturalised! What do you respond to this story?
>>55900527
i explained the context that this will be used in:
shitskin mudslime from iraq becomes "migrant" to france. brings his jihad but waits 5 years to get citizenship and have 10 children.
now he is french with iraqi ancestory.
he then goes into a nightclub with an ak and kills 20 people
france currently has to treat him as a french citizen, now mr shitskin gets to waste millions of tax payer euros, clogs up the legal system and gets to appeal his charges 20 times thanks to french socialist law.
strip him of his citizenship
deport him back to iraq
let him hang
this is much cheaper and much more efficient for the french government when france has hundreds if not thousands of shitskin terrorists living in its borders.
you can try to conflate this issue with your retarded semantics but i pretty much drew it out in stick figures so that you can understand their reasoning.
will it get abused?
probably
is ISIS abusing the western cuc ck pro immigration stance? definitely.
>>55902411
>ok let me tell you this again HE DENIED THE HOLOCAUST. you can't deny the fucking holocaust in a civil manner you are purposely spreading wrong information to lure people into the hands of neonazis. it doesn't matter if he talks like a lawyer, he denied one of the worst crimes against humanity that is hatespeech.
Anything can be denied in a civil manner. You seem to have very little understanding of free speech.
You don't even know what she said. You haven't even seen the speech. What "wrong information" did she deliver? Must every person who spreads "wrong information" be jailed? Who decides what information is right and what wrong?
>>55902411
Speech, just because you don't like it, should be defended. I'm a Catholic and I fucking loathe the westboro baptist church as they make normies hate Christians. But you know what? I'd sooner be shot than see their ability to speak be stopped.
That speech above wasn't nice speech, certainly nothing I agree to. But they should be able to say it. Your country is doing ill onto its citizenry if it does not allow them to say things however unpleasant as neither of those statements were calls to action to commit crimes but just blanket unpleasant things which is fine.
>>55902560
God, Frenchemen. You are an idiot. Your ignorance proves a lot about European countries.
In this message...
>>55902327
I have clearly stated I said "European citizen" just because I did not want to give away my nationality.
I am Schengen raised and born. At school they taught me what is European citizenship and how to behave like a European citizen. Of course it's not a de fact citizenship... yet I do have a passport from a Schengen country, a driver's license that is identical to all other driver's license in Europe and basically I can be elected to European parliament.
Does this make me a European citizen? Hell yes.
>>55902883
you can't deny the holocaust that is like denying WW2. it doesn't matter which arguments she had, how she said them if her conclusion is that the holocaust never happened she should STFU.
>>55901860
Did you just come back from your 800,000 visit to auschwitz?
>>55902798
So are you telling me they are going to put all this shitstory in their constitution? I strongly doubt Constitutional laws will be so specific.
>>55902964
Why not? What if I deny WW1 or the discovery of America? Should I be jailed also?
You don't even seem to know what her conclusion is, as you haven't even seen the speech.
>>55902999
OMG Puerto Rico.
I thought you posted with American flag.
OMG OMG OMG.
My life is a lie.
being a nigger with a paper that says you are french just because your mother shitted you on french soil doesn't make you french, come on australia
>>55902411
>any negative speech about anything that media tells me to like is hate speech
I bet if you lived in Germany during Kristallnacht in the 1930s you would be in one of the mobs attacking Jewish businesses
why not strip them of their head tho
>>55899078
With Charlie hebdo it was more controle of Internet.
Now i'm reading the UE wants to use this to tighten gun laws in european countries... (they were dreaming about that for some times...)
>>55899228
The government doesnt need the option to remove your citizenship if they feel like it.
If they are terrorists there are already enough laws on the books to see them dead.
>>55903128
Stai zitto, testa di cazzo.
Il discorso generale riguarda il fatto che se metti una legge costituzionale che dice che chiunque con la doppia cittadinanza può perdere la cittadinanza italiana è una troiata colossale.
Infatti spero intendessero dire altro... ma Hollande è stato abbastanza vago nel discorso che ho sentito.
Supponi che un Francese abbia madre tedesca e padre francese. Ora, di punto in bianco, c'è una legge costituzionale che dice che se commette terrorismo sarà privato della cittadinanza francese. Ma solo lui perché è doppio cittadino. Se fosse stato *solo* francese, se lo sarebbero tenuto.
Ora dimmi che cazzo di senso ha una legge del genere.
Ah, ma tanto tu voti lega di sicuro. Vai a berti un goccio con quell'idiota di Salveeene
>>55902900
telling the people that muslims are too stupid to work because of all the inbreeding is just lying and promoting hate against a certain group.
>>55903157
you guys can't be serious all those examples brought up spread lies and hate. how is that excusable as free speech ?
maybe we still feel guilty for what happened years ago but as a german I completely agree with stopping this kind of hatespeech in its tracks before it spirals out of control (again) and leads to genocide. free speech is all good and well but that doesn't mean you can spread lies to promote your ideology and hate against another group.
>yfw this constitutional change will be used against right-wing "extremists"
>yfw this won't stop homegrown terrorism since a lot of French Muslims are second-generation
>right-wingers support this
Leftists aren't the only ones shooting themselves in the foot, it seems. Kind of like how American right-wingers supported expanded domestic surveillance under Bush even though the NSA automatically considers them targets. (The NSA is actively browsing /pol/, by the way.)
It's also similar to how (big-C) Conservatives in Canada supported surveillance bills even though I am 90% positive it will be used by the Liberals to justify policing hate speech online (say bye-bye to half the Canadian posters here).
If you think Western governments won't abuse its power for partisan reasons...
>>55903253
>Now i'm reading the UE wants to use this to tighten gun laws in european countries... (they were dreaming about that for some times...)
Time to get to >/k/, then.
>>55903436
How can you know if something is the truth or not if you're not allowed to question it/discuss it?
Also, I doubt Stolz denied that Jews were persecuted. She probable denied the extent and certain policies that Germany is accused of.
>>55903444
Déjà-vu. It's as if I read these exact words months ago.
>>55902798
>deport him back to Iraq
There is no extradition treaties between France and Iraq
>Let him hang
He didn't break the law in Iraq so as far as we all know, he could be set free
If he gets set free, which is possible, he could find his way to another country to commit atrocities.
Stripping someone of citizenship literally does nothing. It's symbolic but meaningless.
>>55899078
It might make sense if they reverted to another nationality but most are French and Belgian so I assume it's a jewish trick.
>>55903329
la legge è evidentemente sbagliata, gli andrebbe tolta la cittadinanza in entrambi i casi, quello che ho scritto nel post sopra rimane vero, non voto lega, ti scaldi per niente
>>55903585
>Stripping someone of citizenship literally does nothing. It's symbolic but meaningless.
As I said in OP: just a way to claim "he is not one of us, the true French!"
Even though he *may* very well be "one of us, the true French". I explained this point in my previous message:
>>55902765
>>55902945
Don't listen to him. European citizenship actually exists, but he's anti-EU.
That said, François Hollande and Manuel Valls say terrorists were French, at least some of them. And I see nothing wrong stripping their French nationality, even if they were born in France, but only if they have a double nationality.
La France, tu l'aimes ou tu la quittes.
>>55902411
there, i just denied the holohaux.
>>55903581
I've been outspoken against this sort of thing before, and I've used the same scenario of the Liberals using these laws to target conservatives, so you probably have seen it previously.
>>55901423
Define hate speech
>>55903678
>gli andrebbe tolta la cittadinanza in entrambi i casi
Dal punto di vista costituzionale sono più d'accordo con questo che hai appena detto: la legge, se c'è, deve essere generale e ad hoc.
Esempio:
1. Sei terrorista
2. Automaticamente perdi la cittadinanza anche se sei nato e cresciuto qui
>ti scaldi per niente
Beh, stavo tentando di portare nella lingua di Dante lo stile argomentativo comune a una bacheca insigne come /pol/. Che senso ha essere su 4chan se non puoi iniziare ogni discorso con "allora, testa di cazzo"? ^_?
>>55902765
do you want to know what the funny part of your story is? it pretty much describes my life up until this part.
>>...this dude, who is French to the bone...
i have both algerian and french citizenship and yes, i feel french to the bone. i think his "french" citizenship is a joke since turning against the country which made you who you are is pure treason. that said i can understand why you'd want to still be able to own both citizenships : you don't have to pay the extra money bullshit visa related everytime you travel to see the part of your family who stayed back there. If laws won't allow this in the future i'll get rid of my algerian citizenship in a heartbeat since i don't feel connected in any way to this country. it's convenient, that's it. sorry for the broken english
>>55903715
And according to some people here, you should go to prison. Will you turn yourself in?
The Constitution was adopted in 1955, in the post-WW2/Cold war era. It is simple not suited to respond to the kind of threat we see today. It has nothing to do with undermining citizen's liberties, just adapting a tired, old constitution to a modern threat. We're not going to give exceptional executive power to the army like the constitution suggests we should. So we have to change it.
>>55899078
Never let a crisis go to waste. That is a motto of governments around the world.
>>55903920
according to the government narrative this retarded kraut in this thread is spewing i should. fuck him, people like him are the greatest danger to civil rights.
>>55903824
spreading lies with the sole purpose of promoting hate against a certain group of people or promoting extermist groups.
>saying all muslims practice incest and are dumb is false and promotes hate against muslims
>saying the holocaust never happened is wrong and plays down the horrible crimes the nazis have commited which leads to promoting neo-nazi groups
>>55904018
What's the point of having a constitution if you change the thing every 50 years?
>>55903885
C'est bon. Je suis heureux d'avoir trouvé quelqu’un qui a eu une histoire similaire et que continue à penser que est une bonne idée de éliminer la citoyenneté de ceux qui ont le deux conditions:
1. Double citoyenneté
2. Être des terroristes.
Mais quoi tu pense de l'idée générale selon laquelle est un bon moment pour changer la constitution?
Ne parlons-nous de la double citoyenneté. Parlons-nous de l'idée que cette crise est une bonne raison de changer votre constitution.
Excusez-moi pour mon mauvais français. Il y a 6 ans que je ne visite pas la France. =)
Why am I not asked what I want in a referendum ?
>>55904054
>>extremist groups
The German government is a fucking extremist group. It's hellbent on destroying Germany as a German state.
>>55904282
picture related
>>55904018
So, is your argument that Constitution has always been old-fashioned and has always needed some change... but only now that SHTF governments have decided to do so?
>>55902964
Oh fuck, you sure are brainwashed.
>>55904054
Also, provide a quotation where Stolz said "the Holocaust never happened". You can't, because you have no idea of what she said and are defending the establishment as a good lemming.
>>55904026
>Never let a crisis go to waste. That is a motto of governments around the world.
Sometimes I meet Amerifags with burger logic.
Other times, I meet people like you who are able to shove a statement as if they were true anarchists.
I know most of you deny the label of anarchism because you are proud nationals of your country. Nevertheless, I feel that many Americans (who would agree with your statement, as I do), are crypto-anarchists in the sense they value their freedom, their choices, and they value the idea you can take up arms and throw down governments should the need arise.
Does this description match your liking, anon?
>>55903585
>There is no extradition treaties between France and Iraq
which is why they will make some, you only need 5 or 6 huge terrorist attacks in paris before the iraq and french ambassador call an emergency meeting and force the extradition treaty through
>He didn't break the law in Iraq so as far as we all know, he could be set free
doesnt matter, people convicted of terrorism in western nations are hung if they escape back to their shithole countries and even if they are not, i would rather ISIS be running around syria and iraq than the streets of france.
this is why canada will not deport shitskins like omar kadhr, because the afganis will hang him right away, doesnt matter that he was not tried in afganistan and was not found guilty there.
the governments in the middle east have zero human rights, they will hang you for anyhting.
the west cannot be seen to be behaving this way, deporting them to let someone else hang them gets around this.
you are so stuck up on letting terrorist waste millions of our tax payer dollars fighting their charges of terrorism and being able to live plushly and comfortably in our jails rather than send them back to their shitdump countries because "muh human life", well tell me this: was achmed the terrorist thinking "muh human life" while gunning down the innocents of that night club?
your cu cked nature will lead to islam dominating this nation and its culture.
>>55904506
I am watching a video of one of her speeches as we speak but it doesn't really matter. judges found her guilty of doing exactly that. they objectively looked at it and said she denied the holocaust so there is no discussion to be had really. the judges already did my job of proving to you that she did exactly that.
>>55904685
Wow, you can't be this naive, you you think judges are always objective and impartial?
>>55899735
what ISP are you using? I thought it was all bezek in the bank
>>55904782
maybe not in all countries but in most european countries yes
>>55904870
oy vey watch out palestianian, the jew is going to claim that your ip address is a historically jewish IP address and claim it as his
>>55899596
>déchoir de leur nationalité les Français ayant une double nationalité.
Which part of double nationalité did you not understand? Or are you a Slav with dual nationality? Most of those people are from Maghreb/Africa, i.e. mussel men. How many French nationalists are there with dual nationality?
So, let me recap a little bit of what happened in this thread.
OP raised two issues:
>what's the point of making a Constitutional law that is specific to dual citizens?
>isn't it suspicious that Constitutions get changed every time crisis occur?
Americans and Brits agreed with the latter point.
Palestine got a bit confused.
Germany and Sweden started arguing over holocaust denial.
Most French posters claimed OP was pure bullshit because it is okay to take French cit. away from those who got it as a *second* citizenship.
Canadian Mr. Gordon agreed with the French.
At this point, OP objected that one thing is cancelling visas, whereas another thing is making a law that says that all dual citizens are vulnerable to having their citizenship taken away as part of a Constitutional law.
Italian dude intervened and it was agreed with him (in Italian) that it would be more meaningful to have a law that says *all* terrorists will have their citizenship rights revoked.
Germany and Sweden went on arguing about holocaust, denial-ism and free speech.
A French Algerian appeared and shared with us his heartbreaking story.
Random Israeli guy appears and casts doubt on Palestine's Internet connection. How is it possible Palestine posted if we jailed them in West Bank and threw away the key?
>>55905077
>How many French nationalists are there with dual nationality?
Here's one:
>>55903885
>>55904272
>C'est bon. Je suis heureux d'avoir trouvé quelqu’un qui a eu une histoire similaire et que continue à penser que est une bonne idée de éliminer la citoyenneté de ceux qui ont le deux conditions:
>1. Double citoyenneté
>2. Être des terroristes.
je suis d'accord avec toi
>>55904272
>Mais quoi tu pense de l'idée générale selon laquelle est un bon moment pour changer la constitution?
that's tricky, it's a good idea since shit really needs to be done right now but it can also lead to france becoming a dictatorship, stripping its citizens from their basic rights. what makes france a really cool country to live in is basically everyone can speak up its mind in politics and i don't want this to disappear. so yea, constitution has to be changed but under heavy citizen surveillance.
>>55899078
>>55900944
>>55901124
State of emergency is in for three months
Last time there was a state of emergency it was decades ago and only lasted 12 days, or the limit is supposed to be 12 days
During this time they can control the media and arrest anyone without question. If true, doesn't seem like they're doing much when they have 150+ raids and only arrested a few dozen and have 100+ on house arrest. Kucks probably don't want a backlash.
I even heard that they had a hard time getting in some of the areas for raids
>>55904167
There have many "amendments" to the Constitution in the past 20 years. Amendments are small corrections, which allow us to adapt the constitution to our present without having to rewrite it. Every democracy does this.
>>55905077
I listened to the whole speech, thank you.
The things about removing nationality is a little part of what he said. More generally he said he will track anybody being "a threat to France". If you could speak socialist like I do (because I was born in a socialist hellhole), it means "those meanie nazis" as in nationalists. I guess after a while it will be "anybody that do not agree with socialism".
>>55905009
Well, this is nonsense. They are not at all impartial and they are also subjected to media and political pressure. They can't let certain people walk free.
The truth is, nowhere have I seen a clear line between "denying" and "questioning" the holocaust established by the German courts. Is it even possible to "question" the holocaust there?
I have no dog in that fight. I don't care much one war or the other, but full free speech must be allowed regardless.
>>55905436
Control the media? You're full of shit nigger.
>>55905362
>but it can also lead to france becoming a dictatorship, stripping its citizens from their basic rights. what makes france a really cool country to live in is basically everyone can speak up its mind in politics and i don't want this to disappear. so yea, constitution has to be changed but under heavy citizen surveillance.
Frankly, I don't think Hollande will ever go that far. However, I agree it is always a risk to get caught into crises and hurry legal processes that should require appropriate time, discussion, and popular consultations.
>>55905542
>I don't think Hollande will ever go that far
It's already happening.
>>55899078
European countries are very limited on how we can deal with this historically unprecedented situation due to our own constitutions. It is no surprise that France would have to adjust their constitution to deal with it.
It is the same in Finland, we can't really do anything against terrorism without changing our constitution.
>>55905436
Are you telling me that the current emergency law already allows for all this kind of shit to happen?
So, if what you say is correct, they can *already* suspend civil rights at will.
>>55905266
Well, as he says, in a pinch he can get rid of his Algerian nationality. As much as people love conspiracies, Hollande is not going to start deporting French Algerians who are all in on French laïcité. Those are the exact type of Mahgrebis they want more of. They don't want Maghrebis who are very Islamic. They just don't say it out loud because that would be intolerant, but they do regularly imply their preference by extolling laïcité etc.
>>55901860
ahahahahahaha please gas yourself hans. this is /pol/ and not some college with a "safe space".
>muh 6 gorillion
>>55899596
it would break international law if he took citizenship from someone who only has french citizenship leaving them stateless, so this will only affect foreigners, our former prime minister passed a similar law where dual citizenship terrorists can lose canadian citizenship
>>55905606
>It's already happening.
Yeah. That's why I started OP, really.
But then some other French people came around and in the earlier posts they said I was full of bullshit...
...so now I am trying to be positive about this Constitutional change and to have a moderate view of it, and you come and tell me it is time to be afraid of what the gov is doing.
I am really confused, now. Should I worry for the French constitution... or not? ;)
>>55899078
>rip people with double nationality of their citizenship.
>double nationality
Why are you afraid Ahmed?
>>55899078
>gonna strip of their nationalities citizens that supposedly act up agaisnt the fundamental interets of the nation
Looks like Hollande figured out how to get rid of FN and Bloc Identitaire.
>>55905616
So do they have to change the constitution?
Not just the criminal law? After all, they have yet to establish the attack was an act of war on behalf of Daesh.
Of course, Daesh claimed ownership of the act... and I kinda believe it was orchestrated by them. Yet investigation is not over and we are already talking of fixing up the Constitution.
>>55905713
>As much as people love conspiracies, Hollande is not going to start deporting French Algerians who are all in on French laïcité
Who knows?
French judicial system is better than the Italian one, but still mistakes are being made.
>>55905812
I never said he would strip nationalist from nationality, I said he would track them (and silence/punish them). He said he would remove double nationality for terrorists with dual nationality.
>>55905820
I think they don't realize it yet. But for now it smells and looks like dictatorship. When you change the constitution (assuming in a democracy), you ask the people if they want. I'd even say when you fuck up like Hollande did, the least should be holding a referendum to ask the people if they want him out of office and emergency presidential elections to be planned.
>>55905937
Meanwhile in Australia:
http://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2015-06-24/government-introduces-citizenship-laws-bill-to-parliament/6569570
>>55905479
>>55905654
>The procedure harks back to the start of the Algerian war in the 1950s, giving exceptional powers to authorities, including the right to set curfews, limit the movement of people, forbid mass gatherings, establish secure zones where people can be monitored and close public spaces such as theatres, bars, museums and other meeting places. It can also allow for controls to be imposed on the media (though the government has said there would be no controls on media in this case).
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/nov/16/france-nationwide-state-of-emergency
>The state of emergency in France is framed by the Law n°55-385 of April 3rd, 1955 (pre-dating the Constitution of the Fifth Republic) and modeled on the "état de siège".
>If the decree, or later, the law, says so, the authorities can:
>decide administrative searches and seizures, day and night, without judiciary oversight,
>censorship the press, radio, films and theater representations.
That's from the bill
>>55905937
Our constitutions are very old. Changing the constitution is a hard process, so they're rarely updated, they do it on an on-need basis. This would be one of those situations when its time to update.
>>55899228
>>55899275
>The government would never abuse that kind of power, r-right?
>>55899078
>this may entail the possibility to rip people with double nationality of their citizenship.
Good
>>55905842
I don't know, Belgium.
I think this post proves I'm not Ahmed, after all:
>>55903329
Basically, you didn't read the thread and repeated your ad hominem against me.
So, now, let me shitpost you instead: since you are Belgium, do you want to talk us of the fact terrorists were hiding in your beloved country?
Has anything gone wrong with Flemish nationalism?
>>55905447
Sure, I don't doubt that, but those people can't be stripped of their nationality since they are primarily French only. Aggressive nationalists are going to be tracked anyway as overt nationalism is "extremist" these days. I mean, all you have to do is look at how FN is treated by the political and media elites and you know nationalist groups are on the state security radar, probably also infiltrated.
I'll start listening to Hollande's speech now.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IOiM418enoU
>>55905870
>Looks like Hollande figured out how to get rid of FN and Bloc Identitaire.
You got me there.
Here:
>>55900527
I said:
>This is just propaganda to get relected, because they are afraid Le Pen is going to gagner les elections if socialists like Hollande do not play the bad cop.
>>55906112
So they strip """""innocent""""" shitskins of their citizenships, who gives a fuck? That's exactly what we want.
>>55906069
You think I didn't know? Btw are you already up and running? Gonna get your coffe-o in bushlandia?
>>55905870
It only concerns people with dual citizenship since France ratified a treaty forbidding to make people stateless. Not saying that some of the things he said don't smell bad; especially with the whole dissolve groups who promote 'hate speech' which could be used against anyone saying something againt Muzzies but at least the revoking of citizenship won't concern them.
>>55906075
Very informative. Thank you.
>pic related
Now I am brewing some coffee (Lebanese style, as I learnt while in Australia) and will watch a movie.
>>55906112
I'd love you to respond to this other post I've written. I think it applies to you as well. :)
>>55904536
>>55906382
Now we have to beat the French at stripping citizenship when an Australian-French dual national becomes a terrorist... We were ahead of the game for a while there.
>>55906748
I never doubted the capability of Aussie troopers to dig in and get shit done.
First we got the nobel for Helycobacter Pilori... and now this. And let's not forget Abbott and also Labor's propaganda: "you won't be settled in Ausfailia".
>>55906949
>>if you come by boat without a visa you won't be settled here
>>lists 1300 number because you are here
Top kek
>>55905163
>recap
Now, guys. Thank you all for this wonderful time on /pol/.
Unfortunately, 4chan is making it so difficult to solve captcha (even from PC) that replying to your lovely comments is beyond my patience.
Moreover, I really must start sipping my lactose-free flat white (two sugars) and start to watch the movie I mentioned in my fucked up screenshot above (I meant to crop it but failed).
In addition, I am sick as hell and that's basically why I have been up shitposting all night... I hope I will recover soon since I have a hella lot things to do.
Besos.
>>55907364
besos australia
>>55901934
The problem is "citizenship" has no meaning to a Muslim.
Islam is their nation, they don't respect borders, they don't respect laws, why is it that whenever somebody else won't play by the rules, we have to?
If the person has no concept of citizenship, all you're doing is protecting him and you get nothing back.
Laws don't protect you regardless of what you do, it's a two-way system, you can't love completely outside the society then expect to benefit from it.
>>55908295
This reminds me of John Locke's Letter on Tolerance.
Bascially, Locke's argument was that everybody should be allowed to worship whatever they wanted in a liberal society.
Except Catholics.
Why Catholics, Dr. Locke?
"Because Catholics may be subjects of your country, but they swore allegiance to a foreign religious leader that is also a political leader".
You now make the same argument about Muslims.
>>55901634
>wanting to live in australia
I'll just bring my aussie wife here m9
plus we aren't muslim, neither do we hate western culture so being stripped of citizenship is out of question
>>55899078
>scrap your foundational paperworks
The French do this every 30 years. This is like what, the 6th Republic?
>>55899078
we almost had a law like that here but JUSTine fucked us over
>>55902765
Kek, I made my prépa in Saint Louis and I saw only one arab.
>>55899078
http://strawpoll.me/6022970
http://strawpoll.me/6022970
http://strawpoll.me/6022970
>>55910286
Your poll is shit. I don't want to side with neither of my enemies, USA included. I just want to live in peace and don't see my culture washed away by americano-sionism or islam.
>>55899078
So this is Patrioct Act all over again?
This nigga Hollande is demanding that all EU nations must join in the war actively because one EU state has been the victim of an act of war citing EU treaty article 42.7 which has never been evoked before.
>If a Member State is the victim of armed aggression on its territory, the other Member States shall have towards it an obligation of aid and assistance by all the means in their power, in accordance with Article 51 of the United Nations Charter. This shall not prejudice the specific character of the security and defence policy of certain Member States.
Reminder that there would be zero Muhammadan terror attacks in Europe if it weren't for these politicians who insist on populating Europe with Muhammadans. And now this nigga Hollande basically wants to spread Muhammadan terror to all EU countries by getting everyone involved in the war against shadows. France was the foremost Western backer of Syrian rebel Islamists a couple of years ago. So we're all supposed to be unironically in a "war against terrorism and jihadism". What's the difference? That the local Islamists in Syria don't want to spread Islamic law globally yet? Hell, even al-Qaeda's Syrian branch Nusra Front is oriented locally.
>>55910848
This.
>>55912585
Hollande is a spineless fat blob with speech disorder, nobody will ever listen to what he says, don't worry finnbro
