Free speech + Islam
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creating a new thread just for that one Aus guy who didn't seem like a tard
last thread
>>55370169
still waiting for that proof btw
And [We had sent] Lot when he said to his people, "Do you commit such immorality as no one has preceded you with from among the worlds?
Indeed, you approach men with desire, instead of women. Rather, you are a transgressing people."
But the answer of his people was only that they said, "Evict them from your city! Indeed, they are men who keep themselves pure."
So We saved him and his family, except for his wife; she was of those who remained [with the evildoers].
And We rained upon them a rain [of stones]. Then see how was the end of the criminals.
http://quran.com/7/80-84
The wonderful Quran, promoting free speech
>Draw muhammed
>get beheaded
>>55389253
/thread
>>55389025
>Is there an authoritative source as to what hadith are contradictory and which aren't or are you just determining that yourself?
I follow the Maliki school and commentaries on Muwatta, mainly al istidhkar. I would recommend you to read:
- "Misquoting Muhammad: The Challenge and Choices of Interpreting the Prophet's Legacy" by Jonathan A C Brown
- "The development of early sunnite hadith criticism" by E.Dickinson
For english sources, it's a good start and reference more books that you could read. I do not think that Imam Malik was 100% right and his book is perfect.
>I'm trying to ascertain where you get your historical data.
You said that after Mecca no more freedom of speech/criticism of Islam, that's very wrong and I corrected you, no offense.
>So any hadith that contradict your interpretation will then be rejected.
As I already said, the Qu'ran has very clear rules and hadiths can be wrong.
>>55389253
>>55389419
Op is going to pop in saying "it's the culture not the religion!" while never acknowledging that in this case the two are inseparable, any change in one will cause a drastic change in the other like a fucking double helix.
>>55389711
>the Qu'ran has very clear rules and hadiths can be wrong.
How do you know that the Qu'ran is true if you doubt hadiths?
>>55389253
hes going to say "but they not real muslims!" "real muslims dindu nuffin"
The dude doesn't want to listen to logical arguments, hes a joke and clearly a Muzzie that can't handle reason.
>>55389711
>I follow the Maliki school
My next step in studying Islam will be to check out the sunni schools, but this does not bode well :
>The Maliki school permits up to ten days for recantation, after which the apostate must be killed.
It doesn't bode well at all :
> Maliki law views blasphemy as an offense distinct from, and more severe than apostasy. Death is mandatory in cases of blasphemy by Muslim men, and repentance is not accepted. For women, death is not the required punishment, but she is arrested and punished till she repents and returns to Islam or dies in custody.[24][25] A non-Muslim who commits blasphemy against Islam must be punished; however, he or she can escape punishment by converting and becoming a devout Muslim.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maliki#Apostasy
>>55389711
Aw shit thanks for the recommendation btw.
>>55388590
>>55386707
The two most important factors (I think) is the interpretation of Islam and, hence, the Quran.
I hate to quote Dawkins because its often done by smug leftists who copy and paste his quotes rather than ideologically assessing a religion, however I believe he had a point, when he said...
>No, all religions are NOT equally violent. Some have never been violent, some gave it up centuries ago. One religion conspicuously didn’t.
However it doesn't really address the underlying cause, its just a critique which most people take at face value (or detest, depending on your political and religious beliefs). When I read it for the first time, I was wondering why exactly, and, the following is my opinion (I'd welcome input on it), however I believe the underlying cause is not entirely the religion, but rather, the society in which it exists, although, obviously there is a mutual relationship (ie. the religion affects the society, and the society affects the religion), hence, the cause is debatable.
So I looked at the societies in which Islam is predominant, and I recognized that generally speaking, the beliefs of the followers of various religions have changed as their society has, to adapt to the general development level (technologically, sociologically) of the society in which it evolved. Other religions have been interpreted less... severely, less literally, (e.g. the vast majority of Christians would ignore something like Deuteronomy 22:11, or interpret it differently), which would lead me to believe that Muslims are a product of the society in which they have evolved, which would imply that Islam itself and the beliefs it entails isn't necessarily the entire cause of the faults of its followers.
1/2
>>55390454
The Qu'ran convinced me, the hadiths are reports you cannot really compare them with the Qu'ran.
>>55390562
Yes but that's exactly why I said: "I do not think that Imam Malik was 100% right and his book is perfect.", even tho here we're talking about the work of Qadis and not Malik it applies.
This is in contradiction of the Qu'ran:
>"And had your Lord willed, those on earth would have believed - all of them entirely. Then, [O Muhammad], would you compel the people in order that they become believers?
>And it is not for a soul to believe except by permission of Allah , and He will place defilement upon those who will not use reason."
or
>"Indeed, those who have believed then disbelieved, then believed, then disbelieved, and then increased in disbelief - never will Allah forgive them, nor will He guide them to a way."
I understand the need to kill apostates. from a political pov, a lot of terrorism was conducted by apostates against early Muslims (stab Imams/Caliphs, spy, etc) but it cannot be accepted on theological ground.
>>55390616
No problem brother.
>>55390986
How does this relate to free speech? Christianity says "do not take the lords name in vain", and Christians won't- however you won't see them imposing their beliefs on others. They have adapted their values, over generations, to suit the society in which they live, just as Muslims may be capable of doing the same, which means that the faults of Muslims isn't necessarily intrinsic but rather extrinsic, and hence to criticize Islam would be misguided.
Take what I've said with a grain of salt. I'm tired and hungover (hence why it took so long for me to post my opinion in a way I thought would be precise). I'd love some input, because this is an interesting topic for me, however I usually keep my opinions to myself IRL because its rare to find someone who is open to discussing such things.
>>55391095
Note: when I say
>Christianity says "do not take the lords name in vain", and Christians won't- however you won't see them imposing their beliefs on others.
I mean this in the sense that Christians who do impose their beliefs on others are statistically insignificant.
>>55388590
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>>55391032
>The Qu'ran convinced me
superb logic
>>55391896
What did you expect? There is no factual or objective answer to this.
>>55388590
I hope you're still here m8, I'd love to hear your opinion on my theories.
The only other person who I think is actually Muslim is some French faggot, and if hes the same person from the last thread, hes a halfwit so who cares about his opinion.
>>55392485
There's the fact that Quran is just a copy pasta from other religions and remaining parts are useless stories from Muhammad life that by influence due to Quran made a catastrophic social change for over a billion people. They are not socially good, or stories of higher meaning.
>Oh mohammad had a fight with his wife
>Allah will fix it by sending an angel with a quranic verse
>Another fight with another wife
>Don't worry mohammad, Allah got your back, here's another verse.
>>55393205
>complains about continuity and heritage in the Abrahamic tradition
>pragmatic social framework that survived for centuries (even tho it was corrupted by culture desu)
>complains about revelations
What rulebook of religion are you following? Why should I value your unsophisticated "hurr religion should only be this" opinion? Are you a fedora or a christian?
>>55393205
Of course its a 'copy pasta' of sorts, it was simply reintroducing the message because people strayed from the true message, seems that Muslims still haven't learned and have also strayed because of the Hadiths.
>>55393604
>>complains about continuity and heritage in the Abrahamic tradition
I do complain about it since it is stealing
>>pragmatic social framework that survived for centuries (even tho it was corrupted by culture desu)
Hahaha I laffed, (slaves, repression, social diseases) is now a pragmatic social framework
>>complains about revelations
AHAHAHa again I laffed, even his wife told him it seems Allah works only your way.
>What rulebook of religion are you following?
I dont follow any, since any kind of religion that glorifies a person and then demand equality for other people is bullshit from the beginning.
>>55394166
But that's bullshit, Arabs had their own pagan culture, and northern Arabs were already Christian tribes. And the pagan culture of Arabs wasnt as bad as Muslim portray it, it differed from tribe to tribe with some tribes having even more social progress than Islam itself
>>55395038
>stealing
>common heritage
You're trolling now.
>Hahaha I laffed, (slaves, repression, social diseases) is now a pragmatic social framework
Releasing slaves is obligation upon every Muslim, depending on your opinion repression is everywhere; example can't wear the veil in France for school in 2015, not sure why you mean by social diseases.
>AHAHAHa again I laffed, even his wife told him it seems Allah works only your way.
His way is the way of Allah, he is a messenger.
>I dont follow any, since any kind of religion that glorifies a person and then demand equality for other people is bullshit from the beginning.
Who cares, you don't respect other opinions yourself, so you don't get to lecture others, keep shitposting on 4chan and know your place.
>>55395408
>>common heritage
What's common about it?
Mohammad came from Quraysh tribe they worshiped laat and izaa
He stole it from his travels to Palestine as a trader back then with the help of waraqa
>Releasing slaves is obligation upon every Muslim, depending on your opinion repression is everywhere; example can't wear the veil in France for school in 2015, not sure why you mean by social diseases.
>He actually believes that
Right, just like Mohammad and his wives had a bunch of servants and slaves which he did fuck some of them occasionally
> repression is everywhere; example can't wear the veil in France for school in 2015, not sure why you mean by social diseases.
Yeah, preventing parents from forcing their kids into their brainwashed beliefs is now repression.
>not sure why you mean by social disease
I am pretty sure you know what are they, and some of them are the reason you are in France not in Algeria, Ahmed
>His way is the way of Allah, he is a messenger.
That's because he was saying these words, not allah
>Who cares, you don't respect other opinions yourself, so you don't get to lecture others, keep shitposting on 4chan and know your place.
You do, you get buttflastered anytime someone say anything against Islam, and you are using weak arguments for the sake of making Islam a true religion which isn't. It is just another cult.
>>55395781
Banu Hashim had Israelite ancestry that's why, hope you're trolling.
>Right, just like Mohammad and his wives had a bunch of servants and slaves which he did fuck some of them occasionally
No he didn't, Maryah the Copt was his wife and she was freed of slavery.
>Yeah, preventing parents from forcing their kids into their brainwashed beliefs is now repression.
As if fedoras don't brainwash their own kids, as if any household doesn't impact your personal development, you're shitposting on 4chan's worst board dude.
>I am pretty sure you know what are they, and some of them are the reason you are in France not in Algeria, Ahmed
Islam is only for Arabs? If you believe that Islam should only exist in Middle-East/N-A what are you doing there? Move to a fedora country in eastern europe.
>That's because he was saying these words, not allah
You believe what you want but even historians agree that he was genuine in his beliefs. But muh contrarian 4chan edgelord shitposter doesn't, picture me surprised.
>You do, you get buttflastered anytime someone say anything against Islam, and you are using weak arguments for the sake of making Islam a true religion which isn't. It is just another cult.
t. 4chan irrational shitposter
I don't see myself going to atheist forums to shitpost about it, you're mentally ill my friend.
>>55395038
Why do you have a flag? You're not a country.
>>55388590
>Free speech comes from the age of enlightenment
>age of enlightenment comes from christianity
>christianity comes from the true word of God, through Jesus
>Allah is a demon
>Muammad is a false prophet
>mudslims are worshipping a demon god revealed by a fraud. They are therefore unable to see the true light and attain the age of enlightenment.
inb4, hurr durr christfag, I'm gnostic
