>What
Boards make AI teams that play kickyball against each other in PES16
http://implyingrigged.info/wiki/FAQ
>Where
Official sHitbox, http://derpy.me/dix3h
>Who and when
http://implyingrigged.info/wiki/2016_4chan_Spring_Babby_Cup it's all there and it even converts yurotime into burgertime
>but where da pones at
Wait for Summer and Friendship Tests.
Now, the more important shit:
We have a poll going on! Voice your opinion on who you don't want on the team anymore and write some dank memes in the comment box.
>https://derpy.me/y7qhi
Statement from BGP, though he'll probably repost it anyway: >>27293663
For your convenience here are some new players and changes that have been discussed, no guarantee it's all of them
>new player It's Already Shit with a Moe blender
>Glimmer renamed from = to Make Some Friends
>some sort of demonbabby McFlurry rep maybe
>choose your own autism
>rariball
feel free to share any suggestions you have
Good job waiting for page 10 m8
>>27296359
>>27296388
>image limit reached
sorry, but no
bubbling noises intensify
>/a/ lost yesterday
>/sp/ plays today
>Together Forever
Please don't do this to me gods.
I like this NFR
Why is Lester commentating?
off by one subs
>Reposting from last thread
The time has come again to pick our favorite players on the team.
Poll:
>https://derpy.me/y7qhi
You can vote for as many players as you want, so if you like all the players we currently have, you check all their boxes in the list. If you don't like or care for a particular player, you simply don't check their box. It's that simple. The poll will run until the end of Sunday's Babby cup games.
We run this poll so we can see which players have the least support from the board. These players are effectively put "on notice". They're not immediately off the team, but they will have to defend their spot against newly suggested players.
The current schedule is:
>This weekend: popularity poll 1
>Next weekend: popularity poll 2 (repeat poll for people who missed it the first time)
>Final weekend of the Spring Babby cup: Focus on gathering new player/team suggestions
The Friendship Tests 2 are planned for the last weekend of June (25th/26th).
During this weekend, six MLP themed football teams will compete in a special league in order to decide the formation we will use for the Summer Cup.
During this weekend, we will run another two polls. One poll to decide which of the players on the list of new suggestions are worthy of being on the /mlp/ team. In the final poll on the final day, these new suggestions will be pitted against the least popular players from the popularity polls where they get a last chance to defend their spot on the team.
If you have any meme suggestions for the player roster or the team, post them in this and any future cup threads. We will collect them and add them to a list. During the final weekend, I will post the list to see if we missed any.
We do have a couple of rules regarding new player suggestions, though:
1. The suggestions must be specific to /mlp/.
2. No real, horsefamous people.
3. No memes limited to a particular general or circlejerk.
Enjoy the games, and don't forget to vote!
>https://derpy.me/y7qhi
>>27296471
dont forget to remove sunshit fellow anons
>>27296489
inb4 "thats just the model"
>>27296471
Since Faust isn't on the poll I'm assuming she is out by default?
>>27296516
he forgot to put her in at the start
>>27296500
Well, like... it pretty much is...
>>27296443
It's going to take some exceptional terribleness on /sp/'s part to lose to the likes of /v/.
>>27296516
Faust is still in, >BGP just forgot to add her. The second round will have her, hopefully.
also holy shit that laugh
>>27296523
So she's out. Good, she's not relevant anymore.
>>27296500
...but it is.
>>27296527
Except they're playing /u/ from Winter.
>>27296500
>>27296525
>No Hooves gets removed
>Christian Sunset gets in
>mfw
>>27296527
It's the cancer bowl, anything can happen
>>27296554
They specifically said they will not accept suggestions that only refer to a General. So no.
>>27296561
is christian sunset a general now? last i paid attention to it it was shitposts everywhere
>>27296572
Specific generals or circlejerks. It's only one stupid thread and is not referenced anywhere else.
You know, we should definitely make a player for the monthly Landscape Art threadand I'm not saying this cause I'm the anon who does that...
>>27296561
>Why is Echo not on the 4chan football team
The /mlp/ division who is responsible for the management of the team is both so mindbogglingly incompetent, poorly organized and incapable of handling their responsibilities that they have a hard time implementing any new player/meme at all that was not in the 4 year old foundation build
>>27296572
Wasn't it like a greentext meme that had one main thread with some off-branch shitposting threads every now and then?
It's dead now so it doesn't really matter anyway
>>27296610
it was spammed everywhere for a couple of months, to the point the mods started banning anons for posting it.
>Business, business
>Numbers, numbers
>>27296609
You missed a part of that meme
>tfw the original poster was serious
>>27296622
yeah most of it I just hid or had filtered
>>27296609
supreme pasta
>>27296596
while I like the thread, that's like asking for a draw thread or [pony] thread player.
>>27296639is it working?
>>27296646
>wanting to let /pol/ on the team
might as well replace Best Pony with Ziggers
>>27296646
I just want her on in case we play /pol/ again.
>>27296639
Will /biz/ actually win a game for the first time?
>>27296646
Didn't want to post the whole thing because I did that during the fetus
>>27296666
>6666
I do not actually advocate this! I have the best pony jersey, I love our captain! IGNORE THESE QUADS!
>>27296676
It's a meme, anon, you can't post half of it
What if people started posting "what the fuck did you just" instead of the whole thing?
>>27296666
>>27296666
>The get is a random post in a general
http://www.strawpoll.me/10154987
>>27296666
I look forward to seeing the new Zigger model.
>>27296690
You're right, but I had my chance and I fucked up. Next time I might get it right
Pretty even match, both of them suck.
>>27296667
Why would you care about the approval of the one board that's even more hated than we are?
>>27296795
History has always hated those who were right.
>>27296795
Because /pols/sters are furfags 2.0 and always try to steer the discussion towards their topics, so ignore that.
In this game: two teams that are allergic to scoring
DUDE
>>27296826
>>27296813
Political disscussion will happen sometimes, don't be a fag about it and scream "I want /pol/ to get out!!1!"
>>27296826
/g/ fell apart after summer
GEE GEE GEE GEE GEE GEE GEE
>>27296847
Great, very interesting.
Now, back to divegrass, cause we have a goal.
>>27296859
>both teams have scored
IT'S A DAMN MIRACLE
LOADSAPONIES!
>70 minute long kickoff
/biz/ WINS 1-1!
70 minutes to break the slurp
right into a 1 all finale
what the fuck did i just watch?
>>27296883
>Oi You!! Shut your mouth and Look at my plush! LOADSAPONY!!! This is a Journey into Pony... Loads of Pony
>My name, My name, My name Is Loadsaponyy L-O-D-S OF E-P-O-N-E What does that spell? LOADSAPONY
>Prob'ly...
>>27296939
The most perfect simulation of a real divegrass game we've seen so far this cup
>>27296828
>>27296954
>Right girls, plots out for the bronies! LOADSA', LOADSA', LOADSA'... PONY, PONY, PONY! LOADSA', LOADSA', LOADSA'... PONY, PONY, PONY! Right, whop it out Wella loadsapony Whop it out! (echo)
>Whaaa loadsapony Whaaa loadsapony
Time for the match before /sp/ vs /v/
http://www.strawpoll.me/10155296
>>27297047
forgot the pic.
Again.
I need to sleep but /sp/ vs /v/ hasn't happened yet
Hurry up sou
>5 bongs and a half to play 6 matches
>>27297155
>2.5 hours behind schedule
>>27297155
>eliminate MegaBabby
>matchdays still take as long as a MegaBabby
>>27297106
It's alright we're only two and a half hours late
It's not like I'm going to bed before 2 AM anyway
>>27297106
Fuck, same here
>>27297177
That's what happens when you let a retarded high school drop out stoner beaner run the stream.
>>27297106
>>27297185
I've been up since 2am, I've gotta go to the gym, shower and then go out for lunch for fucking mothers day...
Sou is gonna make me late for my mums mothers day lunch...I don't actually blame him, I just need a name for the blame.
>>27297155
55 minutes per match.
Meaning it will end in...1 hr and 40 mins at least.
2:05 here we go
>>27297217
*2:15
>>27297217
>pure gameplay is 10 minutes
>45 minutes of goalhorns, rigging and bullshit
>>27297261
20, not 10
Two halves of 10 mins
>>27297261
I wish I was drunk right now
>>27296489
>being this triggered by the blender
The name is an integral part of the board history, you stupid nigger.
I don't like EQG either but the blender alone is a stupid reason for wanting to remove that player.
>>27297269
Two halves of 5 minutes.
What happened to the super lewd banjo goalhorn /jp/ had?
JUST ONE GEAR
>>27297357
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qSggtXbusdE
They decided not to use it, I guess. What a shame.
>>27297269
The rules state 10 minutes, the game itself tells you that said 10 minutes are from kickoff to final whistle, and I just measured a game in PES and halftime occurred around 5:05 from kekoff.
So, that's how /a/ won the inaugual cup...
>>27297404
I'm disappointed in you italianbro, considering how long you're here I thought you knew of the managerless original sixteen.
>>27297398
Uhm, but...
>"Matches are twenty minutes long, ten minutes each half"
(source: https://implyingrigged.info/wiki/FAQ#Tell_me_more_about_the_matches.)
>>27297440
I can only speak for the cups I've seen. So I kinda still remember the bracket scandal from SC12 and people wanting to fire Derpy after /mlp/-/tv/ in ABC12, but beyond that...
>kick off at 00:35
>30 minutes later the game is not over yet
>>27297546
So tired
>/jp/ winning with a literally impossible hacked goal at the last minute
Kill...me...
>>27297357
>>27297398
Oh jesus, there it is...
>>27297456
Nah mate. It's 10 only.
37 minutes for a match, lads and lads.
>weeb boards
>in charge of goalhorns that aren't blatant CPshit
Can't we just fucking force these faggots to stop including content that could get the channel banned?
Ok, now we can finally watch a match that ACTUALLY matters.
>>27297617
Then I can finally go to fucking sleep
>>27297613
There are many things that I don't like about weeb boards but the goalhorns are mostly not one of them
>>27297603
PES shows the match time per half for some reason. It's 20 minutes. 2 x 10 Minute halves.
Let's go /v/!
PLEASE don't be as bad as previous years.
Don't let the fact that Gaben was sacrificed go to waste...
And now, lads and lads.
The moment you've been all waiting for.
IT'S TIME FOR /sp/ - /v/!
http://www.strawpoll.me/10155750
>>27297666
If you seriously think /v/ can win then you're gonna be pretty Messi'd up after this match.
>>27297662
I told you, under these written settings one half of no activity takes only slightly over 5 minutes and that's only due to that extra +0 minute. Try it out yourself.
>>27297673
Lifelong /v/ supporter, I don't think anything anymore, but I'm not abandoning the support.
Besides, /sp/ aren't exactly amazing either, so it's not out of the question.
>>27297670
It's the match I didn't fall asleep for, so it better be hyp as fuck
>>27297683
>Besides, /sp/ aren't exactly amazing either
Go espee
>>27297695
Denial much?
Wait, let's put a nail into it
BGP, Emulpee, Darkbow, we know you're here. How many minutes is a half supposed to last? 5 or 10?
Hoo boy time for 0-0 thriller
Is the /sp/ anthem the best anthem of all time?
1.Yes
2.Yes
3.Yes?
>>27297765
No, since it isn't "I vow to thee my country"
>>27297752
It's not even up to debate, you can measure it yourself. A minute of ingame time takes just under 7 seconds. 90 minutes is roughly 630 seconds, and that's, whoop-de-doo, 10 minutes and 30 seconds.
>wait all day for this match
>0-0
SLUUUUUUUURP
HOLY FUCKING SHIT THIS IS SUPER INTENSE SHIT!
>>27297217
Why is he playing the full goal replays? It doubles the length of the replays practically and takes way longer.
>espee
>"""""HENRY"""""
/sp/ is really depressing and naive if they think they can beat /u/
Suck a dick, /sp/!
>>27297847
Because he's retarded, and it also gives him more time to smoke.
>>27297695
>Besides, /sp/ aren't exactly amazing either
>Upset
I don't have an image smug enough, honestly.
>this is the main feature of the day
YOU
GOTTA
BE
FUCKING
KIDDING
>>27297867
Oh I'm sorry but did /sp/ lose already?
>>27297886
STAHP POSTING ABRIDGED MEMES!
It's the whole thing or nothing!
>>27297886
Never said they lost, or would.
Said that they're shit.
This game is proving it.
>>27297898
If /sp/ loses then it's only because it's /a/'s fault.
>>27297905
And I'll never stop enjoying that thought.
AHAHAHAHA!!!
SUCK IT /sp/!!!
2GETHER4EVER
T O G E T H E R F O R E V E R
>tfw I still remember SC13
>the upset on /sp/ when they lost in RO16, which costed Loli his 'job'
>If only they had known
>if only they had known
>victory anthem is the entire half A press video
It's finally over, I can fap then go to sleep.
A brief moment of silence for the last competitive performance /sp/ managed to crap out.
3 years and 2 months ago
>>27297998
>those stats
Damn /toy/ got PES'd.
>/v/ fought and succeeded in getting out of the fetus cup
>Beats /sp/ in first match of babby
It's an absolute longshot, I know, but... Repeat of /out/?!
>>27298010
Nah, Loli did just a very good job
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iWxPYGic_Kc
>>27297968
well fuck now I have to finish watching it, it's kinda fascinating really
>>27297980
and then this
Can we borrow one of your managers?
>>27298048
Aww, you don't want one of our managers. You're aware that they're horsefuckers, right?
That's everyones problem, isn't it? No team wants horsefucker managers?
>>27298064
But everyone knows that the cup is run by horsefuckers.
>>27298064
Better than a leaf and a full time plumber tbf
>/sp/
>After /mlp/ won SBC13
>IF ONLY THEY HAD FUCKING KNOWN
>>27298048
I never actually managed but I watch the cup for a few years and tinkered with PES myself, I also follow hockey and am a lifelong Leicester fan since last week
most importantly I'm a fullblown horsefucker so I'm in touch with the Conspiracy and could probably strike a deal that will get you to at least elite semis again
>>27298087
True.
>>27298091
Also true.
Sadly, pretty sure our managers are already occupied with our own team.
You'll just have to tough out another 2 seasons to see if someone on /sp/ is man enough to git gud.
[GOAT DRAMA INTENSIFIES]
>>>/sp/67423893
>>27298195
>Linking the horsefuckers to our despair
>>27298206
Relax, is not horsefuckers you should worry about, atm.
Animu smugfaces posters, instead...
>>27298217
They're already there in full force, not looking forward to that rainbow haired cunt getting spammed again.
>>27298232
Ew, EQG.
>>27298206
Your situation is pretty sad. It will be even worse when you eventually sack DM and Twain and push for another Decision filled with memetactics. I can't even laugh at that anymore, I actually want /sp/ to be great again.
>>27298232
It's dangerous to post alone.
Here, take this
>>27298242
Friendship Tests > the Decision
>>27298312
Certainly. FT is memes, some production value, but mostly fun that doesn't matter that much, it's just public testing. Thed Ecision is memes, some production value, but mostly suffering and despair as you witness a board sinking deeper and deeper.
>pass out
>miss the /sp/ match
At least I didn't have to witness the suffering
>the most enthusiastic candidate for successor after the inevitable sacking uses Trump rhetoric and his PES experience comes from playing an 8 year old game
oh yes this will go swimmingly, better stock up on popcorn
So after the divegrass, I had to go out for lunch for Mothers day. Just sitting at the pub, and they have ACTUAL divehrass on the TV...
I'm just looking at it and I finding it such a piss poor sport. I mean how and why do they let some of these wankers dive so much like pussies, and ignore how perfectly fine they are seconds after?
Plus these fucking players are so boring to look at. They really need boxes for heads... Or enormous dicks... Or Sanic... Or mechs... Or Pones...
Kicking around Flufflepuff...
God real divegrass sucks compared to virtual divegrass.
>>27298969
So say we all.
>>27296396
Why is Boris Screaming?
>>27300458
Because he only knows how to half-A press and not press A completely to Let go
>>27300458
He needs to wake up inside, but no one's saving him from the nothing he's become
Alrighty, I'm new to this, but aren't we in the elite cup, not the babby cup?
>>27301215
Yeah, but /mlp/ is one of the few boards allowed to have cup threads, and the /vg/ thread is known for being full of drama. So even when /mlp/ isn't playing we still have threads cause it's comfy and fun
>>27301267
also /mlp/ proxy teams :^)
>>27298138
>four days later, /sp/ lost a star
REKT
>>27301272
Yeah, we can all root for /co- Oh, wait...
/co/ will be in winter 2016. Cap it faggots.
>>27301427
Aaaaand capped.
And now to laugh at you because Winter 2016 was 2 months ago. No /co/
>>27301507
>implying we aren't entering winter right now.Southern Hemisphere MasterRace
>>27301609
Don't worry, I agree with that.Im already getting cold down here...
Fell asleep...fuck you /sp/ i wanted weeb tears ;_;
>>27298969
Yeah IRL football can get really fucking boring unless it's top tier or you're interested in one of the teams. Nothing better than watching 90 minutes of a 1-0 slurpfest. The diving ballerinas are the worst shit.
>>27301626
/sp/ got kind of shafted, to be honest. They played better, but all their shots went wide. Penaldo a shit.
>>27302462
I fa /a/ get shafted today its fo/a/tu/sp/ time
Who's ready for /sdb/ to win the Friendship Tests?
Chat shit get banged Blunderbolts :^)
GET OUT OF MY SPORTS HORSEFUCKERS REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
>>27302679
>implying you won't get exposed hard this time
Schedule for today:
Group A
/vp/ vs /b/
/x/ vs /p/
Group B
/vr/ vs /r9k/
/c/ vs /adv/
Group C
/cm/ vs /lit/
/o/ vs /his/
Group D
/a/ vs /int/
/w/ vs /trv/
We might even be able to get through all these games in under 6 hours this time>:sou
Bors is playing Kerbal over on hitbox with the Japanese opening theme playing in the background
>>27302747
>/o/ vs /his/
worried.jpg
>/histeam/ doesn't even have show routines
how pathetic can you get
>>27302731
>wondercuck
>talking about "exposing"
Ah the irony
>>27303256
They're the prettiest birdhorses and they're not ashamed of it.
>>27303272
When your team leader is best known for her sexy photos you know that something's not right
>>27303300
That's just proper marketing, not like you and your literally who team would know what that is.
>>27303272
>birdhorses
I believe the word you're looking for is "horseflies."
>pegasus team shitters
mfw
>>27303327
lmao look who came crawling back like they're still relevant
I thought that after Dash humiliated you in yesterday's episode you would stick to your mud and fields
>She puts the 'fire' into football
>It has been a terrible year for Wonderbolts FC. Again. After losing with pretty much everybody in the league, twice, the team is now facing a small economical crisis. Except for one department: the marketing team, in fact, has observed a net increase in sales of saucy pics of their Team Leader Spitfire
>"It's amazing" said marketing chief Spitfire "No matter how bad we do, people always seems eager to buy pics of Spitfire"
>The young team leader seemed unfazed by this
>"Ponies like the way we play, not my body. Ok, maybe a bit. OK, maybe a bit too much. OK, PONIES CLOP TO MY PICS, HAPPY NOW!?"
WEAR THE BOLT, WEAR THE BLUE
Speaking of The Summer Friendship Tests, a new mystery team has stepped up to challenge Too Many Pinkie Pies, Cloudsdale Factory, The Wonderbolts, Equestria Girls, and leading champions The Shadowbolts.
Stay tuned!
>Wdb FC once faced Griffons Utd in the league cup final
>They lost 2-0
>After the match, was heard screaming
>In the opposing team locker room
>>27303454
>power ponies
L I F E L O N G
>>27303454
A Mystery
>>27303454
Oh shit a new team to the games, I wonder if the /wdb/ will lose to them.
>>27303487
The questions is not whether they lose or not. The question is if Spitfire will get pregnant, this time.
>>27303359
Dash humiliated herself, you mean.
>>27303487
>>27303506
She just showed what everyone thinks of mudhorses. Bunch of hicks, shit friends and dumbasses chasing their sugar high.
>>27303487
Of course not, because this is our time, our year!WOOOOOOOO
>>27303543
>/wdb/ is the /o/ of the friendship league
...I'm ok with this
>>27303553
So would /eqg/ be the /mlp/ of the friendship game for everyone hate them but they bring entertaining games.
MUGEN INC
>>27303553
Except /wdb/ doesn't have a perma-butthurt shit manager
>>27303568
no because >no fans
>>27303568
No, that would be /sdb/: a team everybody hates, constantly accused of rigging, which somehow manages to turn the odds in its favour
Hey, remember when/wdb/ was good?Yeah, me neither
Are the tests streamed?
>>27303631
>being a fair weather fan
I bet after /wdb/ wins the Tests you'll be the first to spout how you were a lifelong fan
also holy shit that MUGEN what the fuck is going on
>>27303637
the friendship tests will be streamed.
>>27303654
>/wdb/
>Winning
>>27303568
Yes. They're the most hated team, which is an easy stand in for /mlp/ itself.
>oh look an Equestria Girl
>your day is ruined
/tfh/ team when?
>>27303685
The design is awful the stories don't make sense and the money put into this could've given us much more actual ponies
Only good thing about EqG are the songs and that's why the second one was the best one because it was mostly just songs
>>27303637
The Summer Friendship Tests will be streamed during the last weekend of June by PMB on his twitch channel.
>>27303654
>/wdb/ winning
>>27303711
And we all know who will win
( original unedited pic: https://derpicdn.net/img/view/2016/2/8/1082971.jpeg )
>>27303761
that compression and contrasting colors are hurting my eyes 1/10 apply yourself
Step aside pleb teams. This is /sdb/'s year and always will be their year.
>>27303761
From your lips to Celestia's ears.
>>27303843
If /sdb/ are so good, why did they poach an Equestria Girl for one of their medals? Shitter Bolts chat a lot of shit, gonna get banged.
>>27303820
Point taken, but I can't do anything about the compression since the original pic is already like this
>>27303843
your last run was a fluke mate stop deluding yourselves
>>27303843
>bunch of edgelords think they're hot shit because they PES'd their way to victory
Witnessing you crash and burn will only be much sweeter
>>27303857
>/cdf/
Literally who?
>/pnk/
No class, no excitement. Boring games. Yet they still say they're the most fun team. Laal.
>/wdb/
Choke all the time and are experts at blowing leads.
>/eqg/
So bad they have to copy other teams' tactics, yet they still fail
>Whatever the new team is
Top kek. They're going to get raped by the big boys, and no I'm not talking about the teams above. They will be out of their league.
Let's face it. /sdb/ are constant perfection. They play perfect exciting footie while everyone else is playing with their wangs. All I see chatting shit are asspained /pnk/ and /wdb/ fans. Face it m80s, /sdb/ won before and they're going to win again, like every competition they're ever in.
>>27303937
This is looking very much like /mu/-denial shit.
>>27303937
/wdb/ are experts at blowing dicks, you mean.
>>27303937
>No class, no excitement. Boring games
Whow, that's a new level of denial
>>27303965
>not having a patrician taste
REEEEEEEE
>mfw a Wondercuck was slutty near me
All these old memes, looks like my time machine worked
>>27304164
Feels like 2007 again, it's great
>>27304164
Spikefag, pls
>>27304024
>>27303871
Love these. It would be nice to see them for the other teams, too. The FT are becoming a full immersion event.
>>27304177
>Twi got rekt
>>27304128
>take a bath
>suddenly no cutiemark
Spitfire confirmed Starlight.
>>27304224
Needed to be 20% cooler
>>27304214
>implying other teams fans have the same creativity as /pnk/ fans
Please...
Sdb fans would crap out edgy, black posters with "WE WIN" written onto, Wdb lewd pictures of Spitfire ("There was something we wanted to advert but we forgot about it: just look at the plot"); Eqg would be just pics of Sunshit ("you already hate her when she plays in the national team, you can hate her more, in the summer friendship tests") and Cdf would probably be something pathetic like "g-guize, could you r-root for us? We're g-good, we promise!"
>>27304304
>clover
lmao
>>27304244
>teams other than /pnk/ have fans
Just a reminder that May is the best Pokegirl protagonist.
>>27304407
THE BEST THE BEST THE BEST THE BEST THE BEST THE BEST THE BEST THE BEST THE BEST
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FdcPheS9IiU
Who /lefunnybanana/ here
Newfag here. Did trash not make it to the baby cup this year?
Fug
Carded goal.
>>27304469
fooken rigged
>>27304472
there's plenty of trash in the baby cup friend
>>27304472
Yeah, they're currently going under the name of
>/sp/
>>27304452
Never stop.
>>27304472
Lurk more
IKUZE
Go /vp/!
>>27304480
>>27304407
I want to root for /vp/ but only if we start posting better girl
>>27304513
>Better
... I won't get into this argument, but I will at least settle for posting them together...
