![[Lunamaria] Mobile Suit Gundam SEED Destiny HD Remaster - 42 [BD][720p-AAC][DDED5F06].mkv_snapshot_22.18_[2016.05.04_22.50.25].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/c2FnCIL.jpg "[Lunamaria] Mobile Suit Gundam SEED Destiny HD Remaster - 42 [BD][720p-AAC][DDED5F06].mkv_snapshot_22.18_[2016.05.04_22.50.25].jpg")
How was he the bad guy?
What did he do wrong?
>muh space communism
>muh death star
>>14212596
> First episode
> Char's VA
> Shifty as fuck eyes
> Cagalli talks about how he's breaking treaties and making weapons that violate them using Orb personnel and so on
> Sends a hit squad to kill Lacus
> Trains Shinn as his attack dog
> Makes his friend's clone in to one too
> Turns an innocent girl in to a piece of propaganda to further his agenda
> DESTINY PLAN!
> Points a gun at the world
And so on.
> he creates the evil council
> he has evil eyes
> hes got an evil friend from the past
> he mades an evil clone of his friend
> he creates destiny plan, and destiny plan was evil
> he creates an evil death star
> he trains evil attack dogs as shin
an so on
Bernie plz
>>14212602
>>14212672
>> Sends a hit squad to kill Lacus
How is this evil?
>> he has evil eyes
>> Shifty as fuck eyes
His eyes are nice. I'd like to have them.
>> DESTINY PLAN!
>> he creates destiny plan, and destiny plan was evil
Not if you're a Utilitarian
>> Points a gun at the world
>> he creates an evil death star
So? We've had nukes for a long time. They aren't inherently evil to possess
>> he creates the evil council
>> Cagalli talks about how he's breaking treaties and making weapons that violate them using Orb personnel and so on
Diplomacy tbqh
>> Turns an innocent girl in to a piece of propaganda to further his agenda
Ok, that might be a little bad.
>> hes got an evil friend from the past
So? He is not his friend.
>> he mades an evil clone of his friend
>> Makes his friend's clone in to one too
That's just kinda gay. Is being gay evil?
>> First episode
Yeah, I mean I don't think Garrod was evil because the first episode of X aired.
>> Char's VA
Zeon did nothing wrong though.
>> Trains Shinn as his attack dog
>> he trains evil attack dogs as shin
Stupidity isn't evil is it? Shinn wasn't evil either.
Why do people fear what they don't understand.
>>14212703
He deserved worse tbh
>>14212596
he didn't suck jesus dick
>>14212596
>fakes celebrity promo videos endorsing him
>by surgically altering a wannabe to mimic a famous singer
>attempts to have real singer killed, TWICE
>attempts to initiate micro-managed totalitarian rule over the entire human race
gee, i dunno.
seems like a swell guy
>>14212596
>How was he the bad guy?
Because Jesus Yamato doesn't like him
>What did he do wrong?
Literally nothing
>>14212602
>> Sends a hit squad to kill Lacus
No conclusive evidence.
>>14212839
> no conclusive evidence
You're right. If only they had used something that linked them to ZAFT, like some kind of weapons or something.
> nooooo, but that doesn't count, cause anyone could have sent those suits
Yea, it's not like they were new, and as yet undeployed suits that the EA couldn't have got their hands on.
> but you don't know it was him, someone could have sent them as a false flag
Well let's see: who else has a motive, or cares about Lacus' existence at all? Oh right. No-one.
> Well the show didn't say it was him, so maybe it was someone else.
The same people who say this probably love talking about how Lacus is really a dictator and the true evil.
>>14212602
Don't forget having data on the Destroy Gundam that he conveniently chose NOT to pass along to his troops, allowing the machine to run a full rampage so he would have the people fully in his pocket when he decided to pull back the curtain on LOGOS.
>>14212703
>They aren't inherently evil to possess
The nukes are also, for better or worse, legal. Especially since they are owned by enough sides that their very presence is a deterrent against their use.
Not really the case for Neo-GENESIS. Besides the fact it's a pretty big treaty breaker (yeah, everyone's wiping their ass with the treaties, but 'everybody does it' has never really been a good excuse for questionable behavior) the fact is the only thing even close to being able to match it was Requiem.
Which - guess what? - is now also under ZAFT control.
Throw in the fact that Gilbert was getting Neo-Genesis ready to glass an entire nation for daring to rise up against him, and it becomes much shakier to really justify.
In the nuke scenario, this would be akin to something like Russia deciding to reduce Chechnya to a radioactive crater for daring to give them shit.
The very act of possession isn't inherently wrong, but the context makes it rather damning.
>>14212703
>Yeah, I mean I don't think Garrod was evil because the first episode of X aired.
That's kind of a disingenuous analogy, isn't it?
Garrod was presented as the protagonist from the first episode - a happy go lucky kid just trying to make his way in a post-apocalyptic world whose only real misstep is accidentally turning on a weapon he had no idea was going to unleash horrific destruction and death.
Not exactly the same thing as introducing a political leader from a faction with a prior track record to the viewers of being an antagonist who is being called out on scooping up weapons designers and technology from other countries to build up his forces, who spends almost all of his screentime with a suspiciously knowing smile, is revealed to have been developing Gundams in secret, and who is voiced by Shuichi Ikeda - famous for voicing Gundam's single most popular antagonists.
In terms of how each is presented, both within story context and just general demeanor, one can see how the latter would look much more suspicious than the former.
Not a smoking gun, but the story cues definitely want you to be suspicious about Gilbert.
>>14212596
>What did he do wrong?
He lost.
The fact that he lost proves the strength of his justice was insufficient, and that Kira's justice was stronger.
This is the only result when two justices collide. The stronger destroys the weaker. Gilbert's was the weaker.
>>14212596
>How was he the bad guy?
>What did he do wrong?
>Durandel did nothing wrong
You had one job, OP.
>>14212862
>If only they had used something that linked them to ZAFT, like some kind of weapons or something.
Inconclusive. Kira is proof alone that anyone can get a mobile suit.
>>14212862
>how Lacus is really a dictator and the true evil.
Her mary sue brainwashing got you too.
>>14212862
You forgot the other damning piece of evidence for Gilbert - timing.
In the aftermath of the hit is when Meer's message starts to change gears. It's no longer 'I know everyone's angry right now, but let's not jump into violence needlessly' to 'Well, we can trust the Chairman if he says this evil needs to be routed! Go ZAFT!' - a decidedly uncharacteristic message for Lacus, but now that (as far as Gil would be concerned) the real deal is gone, who's gonna stop him?
and let's face it, having Gilbert ask Athrun about the whereabouts of Lacus and Kira prior to those episodes was a pretty telling narrative breadcrumb.
The show fails to stick the landing, but it presents enough clues in Gilbert's direction that it's honestly stretching to try and argue it would be anyone else by this point.
It's not even like there's an Astray story that offers a counterpoint here.
>>14212899
Yes, which was why I made the rest of the post and talked about motives among other things.
>>14212921
Motives aren't proof.
Question out of genuine curiosity - if something like the SEED D hit happened to a character that wasn't as widely disliked as Lacus, but had the similar level of evidence, would there still be /m/en stumping this hard for the idea that it proves nothing despite Occam's Razor suggesting Gilbert's one guilty son of a bitch?
Cause honestly, it feels like the only reason people push as hard for any reasonable doubt here is simply because they don't want Lacus to have any sort of justification for her actions.
It's shitty writing. There's no argument there, but poor writing only goes just so far in arguing against what the script, however poorly, wants to suggest is the case.
>>14212927
They qualify for legal proof when combined with good circumstantial evidence.
>>14212927
There's a reason one of the first questions anyone asks when trying to determine suspects in a crime is 'Who benefits?'
>>14212927
Yes they are. People are regularly imprisoned on motive alone.
Sometimes wrongfully, sure. But no one ever said proof had to be true.
>>14212916
>It's not even like there's an Astray story that offers a counterpoint here.
Honestly Astray just damns him more, by revealing that he wanted Lacus and Kira dead long before Destiny even started by showing he was the one who suggested Canard go after Kira.
It also implies he deliberately set up the Armory One theft by being unusually careless with a test demonstration that let EA get wind of them and then suddenly told the crews to only transfer Impulse to Minerva but leave the other 3 in a regular hangar for the moment and Abyss's original pilot is wondering just why he's delaying and leaving them out for no reason when Sting and co come blazing in.
>>14213584
It's been ages since I last read the Astray manga. The Armory One theft was left ambiguous at best, there was nothing pointing to Durandal being its mastermind. There was another group at play, and it was that group (or was it a person) that sent the info out into the world and shit hit the fan.
>>14213584
You don't even need Astray for that, considering they break in using ZAFT uniforms and have the actual keys and codes for the base, along with the exact location of the new suits, while Impulse just happens to be stored elsewhere.
Durandal's scheming and manipulating was the most entertaining part of Destiny desu. I always had a grin during his scenes
Destiny Plan = Puppet Plan
You want to become doctor?
>while throwing your 4.9 university degree in garbage can.
Lol nope, your DNA say you will be better as Janitor.
>>14214865
Sounding kinda spurdo there, Darth lacus
>Gilbert wants to use people's DNA to bring peace to humanity, but at the cost of their freedom
>Jesus says he wants people stay free and make their own choices, but only if those choices don't lead to anything against him or Lacus otherwise he'll shoot them with the Strike Freedom
And they say Kira is the 'same type of character as Amuro'
>>14214871
Gil actually won too. He forced Lacus and Kira to give up on their dreams of living in seclusion to end up becoming a dictatrix and top enforcer of all mankind, as their DNA demanded.
He also got to die in the arms of his old flame. Meanwhile Kira and Lacus are going to have to carry that weight. They can't walk away any more.
>>14215034
>Alternate ending
>Lacus is about to give first speech as PLANT Chairwoman
>"I'd like to begin by saying... fuck this job. Kira-kun and I are going back to what's left of the orphanage."
>Coordinators drop their genetically enhanced jaws
>"Have fuuuuuuuun, assholes. See if you dickwads can find a replacement requiring less surgery this time!"
>"But then who will be in charge?"
>"Uhhh..." *points at Shinn* "Him"
The SEED movie then writes itself.
You know, I like Durandal as a character and there is a lot of ambiguity to exactly what he was responsible for. People like to think that he was secretly behind almost every event. That's not true but the hit on Lacus is definitely something he was responsible for. Unlike the other events (such as the attack on the factory or the colony drop) nothing is said about Durandal's possible involvement whereas several characters think that Durandal was behind the hit on Lacus and it's never actuall denied.
>>14214870
BRINSESS :DDDDD
>>14215198
> attack on the factory
What was that now?
>>14215258
Armory 1 incident, aka Episode 1. It's possible that Durandal himself leaked the presence of their own set of X-series mobile suits in the factory colony to get his Destiny Plan moving.
>>14215258
Armory One incident from the first two episodes, where Stella/Sting/Auel stole the three prototype Gundams they use for most of their appearances.
>>14215268
>>14215271
I kind of figured it had to be that, but didn't want to assume. Mostly because arguing he wasn't responsible for it and there's nothing said about it seems so stupid. The name (factory) didn't seem appropriate regardless though.
That said, the three Phantom Pain members are literally escorted on to the base by ZAFT personnel, and have the keycard to get in to the hanger on them. They also have information on just the three Gundams in the hanger, but none on Impulse - which just happens to be stored else where. Meanwhile, Durandal doesn't act the least bit surprised by the whole thing and the Minerva and Impulse are both ready for action when they attack. He's the only one with the information, motive and access necessary in the whole show. Why would you not pin it on him?
>>14212703
>Zeon did nothing wrong
Opinion discharged.
true evil
>>14215034
Old flame and a person who's pretty much like a child to him.
He died with his family, basically.
>>14215268
I don't think he leaked anything. As a character, I think he makes more sense if you assume that he was originally wronged, but took his solution too far, especially since he's not the only character who did this (shinn).
>>14219925
>>Zeon did nothing wrong
Fuck You. Wars of aggression are always wrong.
>>14219980
As a show, he's the only one who has a motive as well as access though. There's no-one else likely, and a good bit of evidence pointing to him on top of the motive. His character working better without it is besides the point, especially in a show filled with bad writing.
>art is garbage
>animation is garbage
>story is retarded exceptionalism shit
>designs are shitty anorexic nu-mecha
What compels you to watch this shit?
Will you literally watch everything if it has a v-fin?
Do you also watch IBO?
You guys make me sick.
>>14219996
If it fits his character better, how is your misinterpretation of the themes any more valid? You're basing your entire argument on the premise that the EA couldn't have known about Armory One, even though Phantom Pain has shown that it has decent information networks and access to illegal weaponry like mirage colloid systems (Stargazer).
>>14219990
It was preemptive strike to stop what would have been imminent aggression against them.
>>14214865
You could be a janitor at a hospital, so you can't say your dream didn't come true because you still get to work in a hospital.
Granted the only way the Destiny Plan would be successful is if every occupation is given equal amount of respect, so the surgeon is just as good as the janitor. Will that work? Human nature would never allow it. On the flip side, a genetic hierarchy is a lot harder to argue with. Gotta love SCIENCE!
>>14220030
Zeon was so shitty at politics that they had to kill 1/2 or 1/3 of the rest of humanity because they couldn't work it out any other way. Not only that, but even a sneak attack of that magnitude ended in their loss. On top of everything, they fought to try to force themselves under an even shittier government than the one they wanted to leave.
Zeon did everything wrong, from the negotiation to the politics to military strategy to post-war unification to their "ideal". They were wrong about Newtypes and were, in fact, the ones bound by Earth's gravity. They could have escaped from the solar system or lived around Jupiter but spent their time harassing Earth. Above all they were hypocrites.
>>14220015
Actually I'm basing it on more than that: like them only knowing about the 3 suits they stole and not Impulse, Impulse being ready and elsewhere at the time, them having a base escorting ZAFT personnel, them having the hanger keys, Durandal showing no surprise and there being no other suspect in the show with that level of information and access as well as motive.
>>14220057
>Zeon was so shitty at politics that they had to kill 1/2 or 1/3 of the rest of humanity because they couldn't work it out any other way. Not only that, but even a sneak attack of that magnitude ended in their loss. On top of everything, they fought to try to force themselves under an even shittier government than the one they wanted to leave.
Are you retarded? Killing half of the human population - well mostly Earthnoids and other spacenoids, Side 3 was untouched - was part of their depopulation plan.
>>14220030
> Will that work?
No, because the surgeon has no motivation to study and acquire skill since he's guaranteed a job, no motivation to perform well since he's guaranteed pay and no motivation to advance, since he can't.
>>14214871
A lot of people say Kira had no character arc in Destiny, I disagree. Destiny was Kira becoming more and more radicalized as time went on, to the point that, once you look underneath all his nice-sounding words, he's no better than the guys he's fought against. Any UNDERSTANDING from him is "follow what Lacus and I say, or I will shoot." Now he has ZAFT at his disposal, and he's fully willing to take out anyone who disrupts the "peace."
He's going to make a lot of enemies doing this, and one day may have to pull out a doomsday weapon of his own to tell them to back off. This would be a great thing to discuss in a third series and could see some redemption for the character. But that would never fly with his fanbase, so they would make everyone else worse than Hitler to make him look good.
>>14215034
The thing is, Lacus was involved behind the scenes leading up to Destiny. At least, according to various supplementary materials. She created Terminal, spied on various factions, leaked information to their leaders and stole MS tech (including stuff banned by treaty. The Strike Freedom is a war crime by real world standards) for her own use. She wasn't just taking care of orphans.
Hell, could it be possible she arranged the hit on herself? Kira was talking about joining Durandal but then, all of a sudden, someone tried to kill his girlfriend. Maybe Durandal was one of her lackys, someone who could wipe out those who could oppose her and then turn evil, so she could wipe out LOGOS and keep her hands clean. Not to mention be celebrated for saving the world.
>>14220073
> The Strike Freedom is a war crime by real world standards
How?
![1444949484481[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/TsON5PG.jpg "1444949484481[1].jpg")
>>14220073
>Hell, could it be possible she arranged the hit on herself?
>>14220078
Not him but the SF and IJ use the n hammers which were supposedly outlawed in the treaty after the war in the 1st SEED series.
This is why impulse, destiny, savior and legend use something called deuterion which is a type of rechargable battery.
Although Destiny and Legend's are slightly more advanced and allow for recharging of energy automatically when not in use.
>>14220123
> Not him but the SF and IJ use the n hammers which were supposedly outlawed in the treaty after the war in the 1st SEED series
That doesn't make it a war crime, which has some pretty specific requirements.
>>14220078
In our world, using weapons banned by treaty or convention is a war crime. The treaty signed at the end of SEED banned the military usage of nuclear technologies. So N-Jammers and N-Jammer cancellers are supposed to be off limits, hence why many of the MS in Destiny still run on batteries instead of their own powerplant.
The usage of the Freedom, Strike Freedom, Destiny and Legend by real world standards would be illegal. However, there is also something called Victor's Justice where the winning side doesn't face repercussions (and instead, is the one bringing up the charges) simply because they won.
>>14220098
what game is that?
>>14220078
>>14220123
The Alliance used nukes on colonies, ZAFT shot N-Jammers at them to disable all nukes. Unfortunately that also shut down reactors so now they have a terrestrial energy crisis. It's war crimes on both sides but at least it removed nukes from the picture.
ZAFT then comes up with the N-Jammer canceller so it can use nuclear reactors again, and Rau makes sure the data gets to Azrael (and Blue Cosmos/LOGOS through him) so that nuclear war is back on. End of the war they ban nuclear reactors and nuclear weapons. Both sides promptly skirted the ban in their own ways, and outright broke it in the second war.
But if Terminal was supposed to be doing what was right and good and lawful, why do they get to violate the treaty too?
>>14220153
You could spin it in saying that the Jesus Yamato faction never signed onto the treaty so they aren't beholdened to follow it. (Similar to how Israel hasn't signed any nuclear weapon treaties.)
>>14220157
I'd disagree that ZAFT deploying N-jammers was a war crime since the objective was to neutralize to Alliances Nuclear weapon capabilities. The fact the Earth was mainly nuclear powered at the time and the Alliance couldn't handle the following crisis was more on them.
>>14220168
>You could spin it in saying that the Jesus Yamato faction never signed onto the treaty so they aren't beholdened to follow it. (Similar to how Israel hasn't signed any nuclear weapon treaties.)
Except for 2 factors.
1) Their usage would still be condemned by the rest of the world. During Destiny, Kira and the Archangel are terrorists.
2) Orb did sign that treaty. Hell, from the first episode it's made clear the treaty applies to Orb, who not only fund Terminal according to supplementary materials (I'm guessing Cagalli embezzles funds), but also integrated the Archangel into the Orb fleet and made the guy in the illegal machine a freaking admiral. Cagalli made the terrorist who piloted machines that violate the peace treaty she was harping on in the first place the guy in charge of her fleet.
>>14220153
> In our world, using weapons banned by treaty or convention is a war crime
No, it isn't. It might be a crime against peace, but it isn't a war crime.
>>14220189
I don't recall Orb being there during the treaty signing scene. Kira and Lacus were there, but they had ZAFT uniforms on so they wouldn't be representing Orb.
>>14220168
>I'd disagree that ZAFT deploying N-jammers was a war crime since the objective was to neutralize to Alliances Nuclear weapon capabilities. The fact the Earth was mainly nuclear powered at the time and the Alliance couldn't handle the following crisis was more on them.
Well the problem is that they placed N-jammers on Earth. That's the part that constitutes controversy, since they had to know it would fuck over the Earth's power grids and lead to millions of deaths from starvation, cold, and a couple other indirect causes.
If it was purely meant to be self-defense, then deploying N-jammers around the PLANTs or in earth orbit would be more than enough to prevent nuclear warheads from being used against PLANT. Placing N-jammers on Earth is an attack on enemy logistics and supply rather than self-defense.
>>14220216
>I don't recall Orb being there during the treaty signing scene. Kira and Lacus were there, but they had ZAFT uniforms on so they wouldn't be representing Orb.
Okay, I'm talking about the Junius treaty from the end of SEED. Said treaty placed restrictions specifically on Orb, namely banning them from offering assistance in the form of technology or personnel. That's why Cagalli went to see Durandal in the first episode, since hiring former Orb citizens to make MS violated the treaty.
It wouldn't make sense for Orb to have not signed the treaty. Hell, the Foreign Minister of the Kingdom of Scandinavia (itself a neutral country) put limits on the amount of ships, MS and mobile armors each country could own.
>>14220239
Do you have a source for this? I simply don't recall Orb ever signing the treaty. In fact, Durandal brushes off Cagalli's request easily and even offers to give them a tour of the ship that apparently incorporates Orb knowhow because he isn't required in any way to submit to her request.
The old Gundamofficial (defunct but not obsolete) definitions for the Junius 7 treaty and Nairobi peace conference really only refer to it as negotiation and compromise between EA and PLANT. They use language like "both sides" or "two sides".
http://web.archive.org/web/20120530081333/http://www.gundamofficial.com/worlds/ce/background/glossary_misc.html#nairobi
http://web.archive.org/web/20120530081333/http://www.gundamofficial.com/worlds/ce/background/glossary_misc.html#lindemann
http://web.archive.org/web/20120530081333/http://www.gundamofficial.com/worlds/ce/background/glossary_misc.html#juniustreaty
The only time that Orb is mentioned is "For example, the Orb Union is prohibited by treaty from providing direct military assistance to the PLANTs, but it is unclear as to whether this restriction is imposed by the Junius Treaty itself or by a separate agreement."
>>14220269
Ask yourself this, why would someone from the Kingdom of Scandinavia, a neutral nation, be involved in the peace treaty between ZAFT and the EA?
You people are thinking too far. Fukuda thought GSD is Combattler, so people are good because they're good, and people are bad because they're bad.
>>14220317
Same reason any neutral nation gets involved in peace treaties.Neutrality is a lie
>>14220329
I know. He even said on Twitter that all that mattered to him and Morosawa was what the official websites said, not how it's coming off to various viewers. Kira's supposed to be good, Durandal evil, and they even went so far as to insert scenes in later editions to make Durandal look more obviously evil and Kira better.
But if that's the case it just show how greatly Fukuda failed. And the lore of the Cosmic Era, which Fukuda seems almost eager to ignore, paints only makes Kira look worse. Maybe they shouldn't have accepted Morosawa's scripts at the first draft?
>>14220317
Because the EA and PLANT need a peace mediator, they have a bad history of poor negotiations, terrorism, and shit hitting the fan in the past. Also because part of the war ending conferences have to do with resetting political boundaries and national borders back to what it was before the war, as the EA bullied and annexed other Earth nations into assisting or joining the EA.
I know that EA invaded Orb in the show, but I'm not sure if they occupied Orb afterward or not. If they were occupied, then all the more reason for Orb to be involved in the post-war reclamation of EA territory.
>>14214865
>assuming that being a doctor is more fulfilling than being a janitor
>assuming that janitors are worth less than doctors
The irony of your implication that the Destiny Plan overrides free will is that your alternative also ignores individual preference.
The fact remains that people go into particular jobs because they like them, they're suited for them, or they have to do them. A lot of people don't know what they're good at and follow the commonly defined paths of society because they don't know any better.
What the Destiny Plan does is flat-out tell you what you're predisposed for. Rather than struggling blindly against your inclinations and ignoring your strengths, you are immediately shown where your strengths lie and where you can be most productive.
If you would have been most effective as a doctor, the Destiny Plan will keep you there. If you would have been better off as something else, the Destiny Plan will keep you from wondering why you're unsatisfied with being a doctor who doesn't really fit the job.
It actually is freedom - freedom from uncertainty. You know what you're capable of and if you choose to go against it, at least you will be making an informed decision.
>>14220832
Except you don't have the freedom to go against it, informed or not. Your genes determine your life and that's it. There's no certainty that genes define interests, so if you're genes say you're a doctor and you don't like it: tough.
>>14220859
The Coordinators are literally a race of tailor-made supermen designed to exacting specifications by consumer-level genetic engineering. I'd trust them to know about what genetic predispositions are.
>>14220057
You make it sound like you're up against a force that's so large, there isn't even a proper calculation for the difference, you aren't going to do everything possible to try to secure victory early on. (Keep in mind, even towards the end of the war, after they neutralized the enemy allied Sides and did the colony drop, Zeon still had only a 30ths of the resources of the Federation had.) Or based on the fact that conflict continue to occur throughout the Federation's regime, can you consider it a worst form of government than what Zeon had? We don't know since we don't get a 'what if' Timeline of Zeon not signing the armistice and prevailing over the Federation. Also it was as much the Federation's fault the war broke out since right after Side 3 Declares independence, they put an embargo on them and then start a massive military build up. How are you going to be able to negotiate in good faith with a group that wants to cripple you economically and are preparing for war as a starting point?
>>14220066
Which is why I mentioned human nature right after. With how humans are currently programed, you wouldn't be able to do it.
There is the argument that you are getting freedom from uncertainty, but that doesn't take into account people who are ambitious to do things they aren't pre disposed to, but at the same time the field is large enough that they could enter it. (it's why the dream of playing a pro sport dies early.)
>>14220066
Hence the common description of it being space communism. If any job has more importance, then all it does is create a hierarchy of work. And if that's the case, well-off people will opt to make their children into Coordinators and thus the system gives the rich a means to be above the poor. And if that's the case, the people suited to lower-jobs won't be as happy as they should be which would only create strife (thus defeating the purpose).
It would have to be something like the society in The Giver for it to work, and who really wants that?
>>14220969
>It would have to be something like the society in The Giver for it to work, and who really wants that?
It would at least force those Mexican house wives to actually contribute to society after the third kid instead of just sitting around and pumping twenty of them out. But you'd need to drill it into everyone's head that everyone's job is valuable even if they aren't at the top and to make sure that the people with the top jobs can't manipulate the system to their benefit.
>>14212596
He wasn't black.
As someone who never watched SEED or Destiny, what makes Lacus and Kira so awful? Is it just because she's an idol and idolshit is for macrossfags?
>>14221307
No, that's not the problem. The problem is that no matter how much Lacus and Kira talk about "peace" and how wrong it is to fight, they're complete hypocrites about it. The fact is, fighting is the only way they ever achieve anything. And they don't give a flying fuck as to why anyone else is fighting, but will attack anyone who gets in the way of what they want. They'll just show up and start shooting at people to protect what's precious to them, but if anyone else is fighting for something they're wrong and misguided.
And all this is supposedly them being "above" the war. In the end, they resolve to police the world themselves and will fight anyone who opposes them. The show blissfully ignores that going around the way they do people would naturally have problems with them, and it's seen as a happy ending. In any other narrative, they would be seen as the villains but not in Destiny.
>>14221307
Because he is a gratingly self righteous hypocrite that attacks people for the crime of being attacked, all while lecturing them about why they shouldn't fight, launches multiple attacks on both sides of a war, further muddying and confusing the situation and is treated by the story as being perfectly moral, reasonable and in the right.
And she broke the treaty she helped create by saving and restoring an extremely illegal nuclear mobile weapon for a rainy day, as well as running a spy ring that constantly steals schematics and information from all sides in order to set up a private army with which she eventually swoops in after all sides are weakened, effectively gaining control of eh earth shpere. She gives nonsensical waffling speeches about why war is bad, and it gets lapped up by the masses, who inexplicably obey her slavishly despite her being a pretty pink teenage pop princess.
>>14221436
Let's put it like this. Destiny supposedly has the message of "question your leaders, don't just blindly follow." Despite this, we are supposed to follow Kira and Lacus without question and members of her faction are some of the biggest zealots around ("You'd have to be pretty messed up to disagree with Lacus-sama").
>>14220334
Shut up, Branigann.
>>14221460
>Destiny supposedly has the message of "question your leaders, don't just blindly follow."
Does it though
The whole Orb civil conflict wasn't about questioning your leaders, it was about what happens when the monarchy is weak and the barons run amok
It's less "question your leaders" and more "you have a correct leader and a false one, make sure the correct leader is strong enough to fulfill rajadharma or else shit gets fucked and the land cries"
>>14212703
>So? He is not his friend.
Don't worry, no charge for them.
>>14221401
>>14221436
I feel like it was bungled put the point was they went right to busting up fights and we're gonna wait until both sides were at the brink of Armegeddon so they could perfectly justify it this time.
Which is a fair point. I mean Kira would also look like a dick if he were just sitting around twiddling his thumbs watching EA and Zaft kill each other until enough doomsday weapons are out that he can start shooting everyone up while claiming the moral high ground or just trying to save everyone.
But then Durandal's endgame turned out to be something else.
>>14221940
Eh? He's not talking about Orb you fool.
The whole show is constantly trying to go "Ooh, look at Durandal, even though he acts reasonable he's really shifty! Better keep an eye on him!" Except when you consider their own actions, Lacus and Kira are just as shifty and insincere, but them we're supposed to back wholeheartedly.
>>14222821
>we're gonna wait until both sides were at the brink of Armegeddon
That happens immediately though, the second war picks up where the first left off.
And it's not about EA or Zaft. Kira and co. largely get involved because of Orb and do some interesting mental gymnastics to try and justify themselves as anything but a bunch of terrorists with a stolen nuclear weapon haphazardly attacking absolutely everyone.
>>14222963
Kira and Lacus are portrayed as more good than Durandal, only if slightly. If they were just like Durandal they'd have their own version of Genesis/Requiem (SF and IJ don't really count despite their nuclear power. They're mobile suits not death rays built for blowing up colonies) and they'd have Shinn tossed in jail or killed because he might possibly be a threat to them again at some point.
>>14223893
>Kira and Lacus are portrayed as more good than Durandal, only if slightly
Kira and Lacus are portrayed as entirely in the right, and anyone that doubts them is either humbled, killed, or brought round to their way of thinking in the end. I wasn't trying to say that Durandal was good, only that you were obviously supposed to be suspicious of him, whereas you're not supposed to doubt Kira and Lacus at all, even though their actions are highly questionable.
>>14212862
>You're right. If only they had used something that linked them to ZAFT, like some kind of weapons or something.
With all the elaborate machinations he had going on it's hard to believe that he'd not plan for that by using non-ZAFT suits or something. That they show itself never touches on this is just bad writing.
>>14223984
The real issue with that scene (besides the extremely incriminating mobile suits that on-one in their right mind would use instead of deniable ones) is that the Kira contingent's leap of logic (that is conceivable but inconclusive) that Durandal must have been behind it is made, but the show never actually bothers to clarify that he was responsible, which suggests that their questionable logic is supposed to be good enough for the audience.
>>14223984
>>14224001
They were under orders to kill all witnesses and leave no trace of their presence. They weren't worried about deniability.
Not to mention the fact that these brand new prototypes were the only MS that could do the job of sneaking in outside Orb waters without being detected. All other underwater MS's were short range and operated poorly on land. Aside from Abyss but that wasn't really an option there.
>>14224032
>They were under orders to kill all witnesses and leave no trace of their presence
Yeah, see, in real life no-one does this because there's always the possibility that things will go wrong and there's no reason to implicate yourself. On the contrary, it's more common to use someone else's equipment to implicate them, a false flag operation.
Also,
>no trace of their presence
Then they wouldn't have been using mobile suits, the most conspicuous weapon system imaginable. What, people were going to come round next day, look at all the giant footprints and wonder "What could possibly have done this?".
The problem with their assertions is that none of them hold up completely under scrutiny.
>The assassins were coordinators?
There are lots of coordinators, and Lacus Clyne was both the daughter of Siegel Clyne, a political moderate, and in charge of the Three Ship Alliance, the group responsible for the destruction of Genesis. Given how bonkers people are in SEED it's far from inconceivable that hardliners could have a grudge against her.
>They were military
It's entirely likely said hardliners could be military. But most silly of all:
>They had bleeding edge mobile suits that hadn't even been deployed yet.
Yeah, because no-on else managed to get a hold of those, huh? HUH?
>>14222821
Except Kira wasn't going around busting up fights because they were trying to prevent the conflict from escalating. For the most part, Kira is going around busting up fights in order to protect the Orb soldiers for Cagalli. Their priority is to prevent the Orb soldiers from being killed, and instead of disabling one side before a battle happens they only act during battles.
They make things more chaotic for their own goals. They aggro everyone, but it's seen as a bad thing if people go after them for their actions. SRW Z called them out on this, saying that while they had good intentions they were going about things the wrong way.
there is an image showing that durandal was directly involved in Junius Seven incident
episode 39 or 40 maybe?
>>14223984
> bad writing
Ding, ding, ding. We have a winner. Congratulations, you found some bad writing in a show rife with it. The fact that Durandal was dumb doesn't make it not true. Again, there's no one else with motive or access besides him. Which is good enough for criminal courts, so why would it not be good enough in this case.
>>14224074
>Yeah, see, in real life no-one does this because there's always the possibility that things will go wrong and there's no reason to implicate yourself. On the contrary, it's more common to use someone else's equipment to implicate them, a false flag operation.
yfw the shitty Gundam Senki Missing Link PS3 game LITERALLY does this, where a federation hit squad uses Zeon weapons to kill a federation officer
>>14224074
you're assuming destiny has a modicum of logic when all signs point to evil durandal just because
>>14224188
He wasn't evil just because. He was evil because he couldn't have a kid with Talia and wanted the entire world to feel the same.
>>14224074
>Then they wouldn't have been using mobile suits, the most conspicuous weapon system imaginable. What, people were going to come round next day, look at all the giant footprints and wonder "What could possibly have done this?".
By the time they actually used the MS's as anything more than secret underwater transportation they'd long since given up that part of the plan and the leader was basically freaking out and telling them to use the MSs to level the place because they couldn't leave Lacus alive.
But the original plan was just to sneak in and shoot everyone, then presumably start a freak house fire or something.
>Given how bonkers people are in SEED it's far from inconceivable that hardliners could have a grudge against her.
This is true. It could be likely other rogue Zaft elements might want her. Except, there aren't any shown. After the Junius Seven drop those guys never show again, with the implication they've all been killed. Claiming its some secretive group that never shows up in show is behind a critical event in story is absurd.
>On the contrary, it's more common to use someone else's equipment to implicate them, a false flag operation.
Yes yes yes we've all been over how EA false flagging them would have been a more interesting plot than Durandal just being evil.
But just because something could have been better written doesn't mean it was. Djbril is never remotely interested in the AA or Lacus or cares about them in the least. He clearly didn't do it.
It was handled terribly, but it was still clearly Durandal.
>>14224416
i ain't saying he was evil just because, but that durandal was implied to be behind it
>>14224418
I fucking know it was Durandal, the point I'm arguing is that the handling of the event was so bungled that what was supposed to be an obvious hint that he was a villain ended up being questionable by its sheer suspicious nature. And the show never has the good grace to take a few seconds to have him recall the attempt in one of his many flashbacks or something, they just leave it at team Kira's leap of logic as if it were absolutely binding and conclusive.
>>14224430
I always find complaints like this weird. People complain That Destiny, IBO or what have you aren't subtle, and then when something vaguely subtle comes up (in this case Durandal's implicitly in a thing) people say it's not blunt enough.
>>14224416
What? No, he couldn't have a kid and *didn't* want the entire world to feel the same. He was evil because he was an uncompromising control freak with a warped worldview that lead him to a moronic solution.
Durandal isn't the sort of "Everyone must suffer for my fee fees" sort of villain like Rau, he seemed intended to be a direct contrast, the sort of grand visionary who honestly wants to save the world, but whose personal flaws lead to a skewed approach that makes him a villain.
>>14224458
The problem is that it was an attempt at subtle that fails because it was handled so unbelievably stupidly.
Like, the writers went so all out in trying to make it look like Durandal did it that it as to be cartoonish to the point where anyone who can pick up on subtlety might start to wonder if it's a stitch up (it's just that Destiny wasn't smart enough for that, and you don't realise this until later).
I would have liked Destiny more if it focused on a Natural perspective who wasn't a Newtype, a Super Soldier on Super Drugs or a Seed Mode User because those aren't normal humans. Why do the writers just hate Naturals and the EA in general? The Coordinators and ZAFT, especially involving Mobile Pilots, had so much screen time in Seed, so why would I want more of them in Destiny?
EA and Naturals were portrayed as total chumps in Destiny, and it just further provides evidence that Naturals can't coexist with Coordinators, because Coordinators are simply superior to them and will drive them out of existence. How the hell is peace possible when one faction is literally designed to replace the other? The writers did a poor job of portraying Naturals, despite being Naturals themselves, because the EA were acting like inhuman cartoon villains than actual people.
>>14224458
execution is a pain in the ass
>>14224476
Not to mention, it seems out of character for someone who was plotting everything so meticulously to handle it so poorly.
... Unless he planned it to go poorly, and his ultimate end-goal was really putting Lacus and Kira in charge of the world. But that is contradicted by Astray, which says he was planning to kill them since before the series.
>>14224506
Durandal for all his plotting, consistantly underestimated Kira and Lacus' ability to survive.
Once Freedom went down he's totally conviced Kira is dead and Lacus can't really threaten him anymore, double so when Athrun is supposedly killed too, and then is completely shocked when they return at Orb with new Gundams.
>>14224559
To be as fair to the man as I think I'm willing to get, just about everyone else carried out their parts in his plans exactly as he expected them to - stands to reason he'd figure his plans to kill them would take, however overconfident that would turn out to be.
>>14224465
Durandal's flaw seemed to be that he assumed everyone in the world felt like himself or Rau, when they were in fact quite the minority when it came to being let down by their "destiny" so much they didn't think there was a point in getting your hopes up for anything.
>>14224566
Well, yeah, I should think that was fairly self evident from what the series showed.
Durandal's outlook was viewed through the lens of two main experiences: having to give up the woman he loved so she could be happy because of a flaw of his he had no control over, and having Rau Le Crueset as his only friend and confidant.
From what's presented Rau tried to indoctrinate him to his nihilistic view, that the earth sphere was fucked and needed to be put down, but Durandal was too hopeful for it to completely take. So he did come to believe that the natural/coordinator situation had the world on a crash course to destruction (which, to be perfectly fair, actually does seem to be the case). It's just that unlike Rau he's determined to find a solution that will put an end to the mutual hatred that sparks these apocalyptic wars, rather than causing a mercy killing. His limited experience with people led him to base his plan for this off his own atypical life experience.
The irony of course being that if he'd had anyone to talk to that wasn't a subordinate or a voice in his head, they could have pointed out all the flaws in his plan in like five minutes and maybe he could have done some actual good.
>>14221307
>Idolshit
Lacus doesn't even acts like idols on Idolm@ster or Love Live. She's just Ms.Perfect 101.
>>14224640
>having to give up the woman he loved so she could be happy because of a flaw of his he had no control over
Consider how Talia was basically forced to marry someone else just so she could give birth and she was willing to "accompany Gil to the afterlife" + tell Kira/Athrun to relay her message to Murrue I wouldn't consider she was happy either
If the Destiny Plan involved giving everyone cutie marks related to their positions in life, would that make it more or less evil?
>>14224719
It seemed that the situation was that Talia was one of those women who feel a desperate need to have a child to be fulfilled, and that that was worth more to her than her relationship. I honestly forget the dialogue, but it seemed like he was swallowing his sadness, giving her his blessing and walking away because he knew this and put her happiness above his own.
Her death was absolutely ridiculous and one of the low points of Destiny's writing, this woman who is established to have split up with her lover just to have a child and who is shown to be motivated by said child to suddenly turn around and let herself die for no reason, leaving her only son an orphan in the care of complete strangers. I mean what the actual fuck.
>>14224832
I'm going to get hell for this, but fuck it, the two aren't quite the same. Marks indicate a talent, and it's up to the individual how to apply it.
Actually, now that seems like a slightly more moderate Destiny Plan.
>>14220890
You mean the guys who'se genetic engineering tech was made by naturals? The guys with reproductive problems and gene modding so poor
they couldent guarantee exact anything because people still sometimes came out without the correct eye/hair colour etc?
Those supermen? Because i don't think i'd trust those clowns to butter my bread nvm genetics.
>>14224719
>Talia was basically forced to marry someone else just so she could give birth
Wait...
so they have master-grade genetic engineering but not in vitro???
How is it that the concept of harvested eggs and sperm combined in a lab was only applied to the iron womb?
>>14224993
They don't have master grade genetic anything hence the plunging birth rates and Ulen's iron womb was a huge failure he had
hundreds of test embryo's and only 1 came out as intended before that fucker got caught.
>>14212871
>In the nuke scenario, this would be akin to something like Russia deciding to reduce Chechnya to a radioactive crater for daring to give them shit.
So, perfectly justified?
>>14225019
While the Chechen rebels were pure evil i don't think nuking them is justified.
>>14222963
>Eh? He's not talking about Orb you fool.
I know, but Orb is the one that introduces that whole theme in the first place
Orb's conflict, between the princess by birthright and the upstart Seirans, mirrors the conflict between Kira, the "ultimate coordinator", and Dillendal, master of memes
It's because Fukuda sucks the monarchy's dick and would see an end to all republics everywhere, which is to say, an end to freedom
He is an evil man
>>14225095
I sometimes have to wonder how did the "Ultimate/Super Coordinator" ended up being a beam spamming, death defying, SORE DEMO spouting machine when the term only meant for the embryo to come out without any changes
>>14225095
Not very bright are you the Seiran were part of ORB's nobility what you had wasn't some republican coup but them taking advantage of Cagali's collossal weakness as a leader to usurp the throne.
>>14225124
Between SEED and DESTINY they forgot that bit.
>>14225129
Yes, exactly
Fukuda believes that Cagalli = Orb, hence "Cagalli is crying" as an incredibly clumsy metonymy for Orb bleeding
He literally associates nations with the rightful ruler
The very belief that there is such a thing as a "rightful ruler" is anti-republic at its core
>>14225124
I thought that was mostly the SEED factor, which he shares with Cagalli.
Cagalli's SEED factor is so potent it lets her shoot down five grunts at A Baoa Qu. FIVE.
Truly as weapon to surpass GENESIS.
>>14225138
>The very belief that there is such a thing as a "rightful ruler" is anti-republic at its core
Well yeah, but I think that comes third behind being really dumb and a throwback to the stupid ages.
>>14225138
We know Orb has an elected legislature from materials, but the show seems to indicate that all the real power of the nation lies with the royal families. It's more of a Union of Principalities, rather than Japan's version of a constitutional monarchy. Which makes sense, considering the Japanese name it the United Emirates (a type of Islamic principality) of Orb.
But this is Fukuda's ideal Japan, shouldn't the people have more power?
>>14212596
>How was he the bad guy?
He was a coordinator
>>14225141
>5 grunts in a series notorious for stationary mooks.
Wow super impressive too bad she never learned how to run a country.
>>14225174
SEED mode only helps you kill people, anon. Just like Newtypism.
Neither are the future. They're just tools of murder.Also the Astray girls have more onscreen kills than her and they're just normal humans
>>14225180
>Just like Newtypism.
>>14224843
HA HA YOU DIDN'T GET HELL FOR IT
>>14225156
>But this is Fukuda's ideal Japan, shouldn't the people have more power?
His ideal Japan seems to be a society inclusive to foreign immigrants as long as they align with the moral and ideological positions of ORB, thus strengthening ORB without diluting its spirit, a spirit governed over by a strong monarch, like the lion king.
It's some kind of weird turbobenevolent idealistic monarchy deal where the people definitely constitute the strength, but the monarch constitutes the nation.
>>14220060
How do you know they didn't know about the Impulse? They sent three pilots on purpose; to steal three mobile suits. The Impulse was anything but ready. They already stole the three Gundams and blew up most of Armory One before Shinn even arrived (and failed to stop them entirely). Does Durandal ever show emotion? Would you be happier if he started screaming bakana and nani? He's the chairman, not some mook. Furthermore, the Impulse isn't even comparable to the other second stage ZAFT Gundams.
Durandal had no reason to leak information. The weaponization of Logos proved that EA was gearing up for war. That's sort of the point, which was very obviously contrasted when Cagalli asked about why he's building more weapons in the first place if they're supposedly at peace.
Think about how stupid this story sounds; Durandal false flags a war into existence to force people to accept predestination. How could he even delude himself into the Destiny plan if everything was his doing? The inevitability of war was a major theme of Destiny. Durandal was willing to do anything to stop the violence, but Kira literally pulled a Jesus and told everyone to forgive and live more meaningful lives, not to sacrifice their humanity for some false sense of peace. Shinn forgives himself and becomes a better person, we can always plant the flowers again, cue ED, etc.
>>14225345
>The Impulse was anything but ready.
What do you mean? Shinn was able to fight the extended fairly well with it.
>>14224843
This actually sounds like a much more realistic version of the Destiny plan
>fucking My Little Pony has better writing than Gundam Seed Destiny
>>14225356
Took too long to respond and was not properly equipped to deal with the problem at hand. The presence of the Impulse doesn't even make sense in regards to a Durandal conspiracy. If he wanted the Gundams stolen, why would he keep the Impulse around to prolong the violence? EA already made the first move. If they didn't succeed, there would be no basis for continued warfare.
>>14225357
There have been inconsistencies with Cutie Marks though, and they are tied to a ponies destiny as evidenced by a number of episodes.
>>14225345
I know they don't know because one of them (Sting, I think) literally says "What's that? We have no information on another suit" or something to that effect when The Impulse turns up. And while Shinn might have been late, the Impulse itself was ready and waiting for him when he did arrive and had been so all along by the looks of it.
The reason he might set Shinn on them is fairly simple, it doesn't matter whether or not Phantom Pain steals the suits, their existence and the theft attempt is all he needs to paint the EA as combatative and deflect attention away from himself. He has what he wants regardless of whether they succeed or not. If Shinn dies then he can find a new lapdog, if Shinn kills them all then he gets to keep his three suits.
He meets them to fight so he can day The Destiny Plan is a necessary and better alternative for them. Also, I've mo idea why you'd think The Impulse isn't comparable to the stolen suits, because it plainly is. Better even probably, it even uses them as the basis for new silhouettes in MSVs. It's the Strike to their GAT series and comparable in performance at the least, while being less specialised and more modular.
As for Durandal, I don't need him to run around screaming like your strawman suggestion, but a moment of surprise at least would indicate perhaps he's not in on it. Whether it be a 'nani', a raised eyebrow, shocked expression, whatever.
>>14224834
>leaving her only son an orphan in the care of complete strangers
I suddenly want a Kill Bill take to Gundam.
>Kill Kira: Lacus Strikes Back
Can I just say that I absolutely love Durandal and Rau's interactions in that one recap episode? The scene at the end showing Rau literally and figuratively checkmating Durandal was great.
>>14225293
>His ideal Japan seems to be a society inclusive to foreign immigrants as long as they align with the moral and ideological positions of ORB, thus strengthening ORB without diluting its spirit
That sad thing is that's actually not a bad ideal to strive for.
>>14225382
Shinn was basically his Raiden to Kira's Solid Snake. He said he wanted to mold Minerva into his own AA and one way to do that would be to give Shinn one of the new prototypes and then have the enemy take the rest, since Kira developed his skills piloting the Strike against the other stolen GAT-X series.
>>14225382
>Took too long to respond and was not properly equipped to deal with the problem at hand.
There was no better equipment to use than the sword kit. The blast equipment was unwieldy and the last thing they need to be doing is shooting up the colony more. The force equipment isn't as effective in close quarters battle which is kind of required for capturing enemies.
>The presence of the Impulse doesn't even make sense in regards to a Durandal conspiracy. If he wanted the Gundams stolen, why would he keep the Impulse around to prolong the violence? EA already made the first move. If they didn't succeed, there would be no basis for continued warfare.
What if Durandal already accounted for the Impulse? It's been implied that Shinn was specifically picked by Durandal and assigned to the Minerva because he's been keeping tabs on his abilities and knows what he is capable of. It'd be a bit suspect to personally order only the Minerva to leave port for no apparent reason than to not be present during the Armory one raid. And if it was so important that the Girty Lue get away, why allow the Minerva (and -only- the Minerva itself) to pursue them and engage in further battle after they already successfully left PLANT airspace?
The armory one raid isn't even that important in the grand scheme of things. Everyone forgot about it early on and it wasn't even the actual reason why tensions escalated and another war started. The junius 7 fragment falling to earth and highly circumstantial "evidence" showing Ginns setting rocket motors on the junius 7 fragment is what caused the real escalation. The EA proceeds to confront PLANT as if it were responsible with a list of outrageous demands, knowing that PLANT will never accept as it also prepares a fleet with nuclear warheads to strike at the same time.
>>14224493
I think the idea is, through interbreeding Naturals and Coordinators will eventually become one superior humanity to the old. Kind of like how in 00 everyone was eventually supposed to be Innovators.
The problem is the Coordinators lorded their superiority to naturals, while the naturals got jealous and resented them and this lead to war. The ideal is that the naturals will have to accept they can't be the best but their decendents will be, while Coodinators need to get over their superiority and not look down on the naturals despite being better.
Basically it only works if the world takes on the ideal Japanese mindset or putting the good of your kids and the community over yourself.
>>14226649
...won't breeding with naturals just disseminate the genetic infertility that the coordinators already have to the rest of humanity? or is my science fucked up?
>>14226679
No. Breeding with naturals will apparantly fix that problem, as its' only with Coordinators breeding with other Coordinators that eventually 3 generations down the line the genes cause problems.
Or at least that's what they heavily imply.
>>14226704
Ofc then you diliute all the improvements that were the whole point of coordinators in the first place.
>>14226649
Please don't bring up 00's terrible understanding of evolution. Shit's already bad enough in SEED
>>14226584
I enjoyed it as well.
>>14227993
It wouldn't dilute for the same reason any other evolutionary trait with an adaptational advantage to its environment doesn't bleed away - because competition for resources will grant it's bearer an advantage enabling it a higher percentage of breeding chance over deep time. That counts on whatever issue is plaguing coordinators to dissappear through interbreeding mind, but there's enough time and generations to find another solution if need be.
>>14228162
Yet it's those defective modded genes which are causing problems for coordinators in the first place.
>>14228271
And mixing will apparently heal them, so its no longer an issue then. Coordination stand the healed genes will still disseminate over time and not dilute.
>>14228304
that's not how it works, genes don't get healed, rather it's a bad combination of genes and small gene pool that leads coordinators to be infertile
how the fuck do you mix a certain set of genes into a larger population and not have it dilute?
>>14228328
Genes also don't degenerate, and yet in SEED they do. Also, mixing a certain set of genes in to a larger population and having them survive is practically the definition of evolution. They'd survive through competition, same as any other bit of evolution. If they provide an advantage they'll survive and prosper, if they don't, they won't.
>>14228328
He's doesn't know how that shit works Anon.
At least he isn't calling 00's pixiespray mutant power evolution or praising Doctor Phlox for his contradictory evolotionary theory induced genocide.
>>14228377
An ironic point for a post about how genes can degenerate and stop working. If you think that's real then you too have no idea how evolution works. Then again, you're approving a post saying genes in a large population can't survive and must dilute, a fear that the population used to have about two hundred years ago till Malthus came along and Darwin saw how his theory of population competition could be the engine of evolution.
>>14228403
No im approving of the point that just because a gene is better does not guarante it is dominant especialy when it comes to modified genes.
For all you know they could all be recessive as a fail safe considering Glen was a prototype and could have easily passed defective genes to others it's not an
unreasonable assumption that the scientists who made him may have actually thought things through alittle.
Also coordinators reapply the modding tech used to create first gens when they have children to minimise natural deviation maybe it's not
the genes but the constant reaplication of this tech thats causing the problem. It could be that too but SEED's far too vague
on the subject.
Problem is for a show with genetic modification as such a key piece of it's setting SEED/DESTINY doesn't go into it beyond social consquences.
>>14228375
I thought third generation coordinators were just infertile just because, where did it say it was due to damaged genes?
>>14221436
I need a translation for this image badly.
>>14228474
There's, uh, one at the bottom of the picture.
>>14228509
Shhhhhhhhhh.
>>14228464
How else do you explain the genes working for three generations (or whatever) and then no longer working for the fourth and becoming infertile like a liger or something? The genes have by definition degenerated.
>>14228559
No they had some problems at gen 2 hence the whole issue with Talia ditching Gil to make a baby but as the first few 3rd gen
coordinators started to have kids they ended up having even bigger issues.
>>14228670
Some coordinators had kids, like Nicol, Athrun or Yzak's parents. So some coordinators of their generation were able to have kids and then all of a sudden no coordinators of the following generation could have kids.
>>14228670
Which designer babies like Kira would have fixed.
>>14228675
Ugh they don't just stop having kids ffs but the birth rate started dropping with the 2nd gen coordinators and got worse with the 3rd.
>>14228685
No, Nope and double no. Kira is no different from other coordinators except that tiny random chance that ment a child may not
come out with the exact eye/hair colour was eliminated by his father at the cost of hundreds of dead embryo's most of which appear to
have been aquired ilegally but then Ulen's entire project was ilegal from the start.
Kira is a first gen coordinator the whole 'ultimate' thing was Rau blowing it out of perportion
to fit with his ideology and dumbass seeing it as an excuse to powerwank in bad fanfictions.
>>14220098
What machine is she in, there? I need to know for reasons.
>>14228763
Okay, so the pregnancy rate was dropping over successive generations due to a genetic problem and fewer and fewer people could have kids each generetion. Again, how is that anything but some kind of degeneration of the genes by what SEED says? Impossible as it may be in reality.
>>14220154
Gundam Musou / Dynasty Warriors Gundam 2
>>14228893
Infinite Justice
>>14228900
I never said it wasn't.
Best guess is either unexpecteddefects in the modded gene sequences or the tech they used itself being flawed and causing damage when used would be the most likely cuprits but
the Coordinators appear damn near clueless as to it's cause.
>>14228893
>>14228984
Playable Lacus starts off in the IJ. AI Lacus occasionally uses the SF too.
Since neither her Gunner Zaku or the Impulse exist in DWG2, Luna starts with the Destiny and Char's Zaku, despite having ranged-focused stats.
>>14228763
>at the cost of hundreds of dead embryo's
I'm surprised Kira haters never picked up on that.
>Jesus Yamato? HUNDREDS OF BABIES LITERALLY DIED just so he could be born. More liek Antichrist Yamato, am I right?
>>14228991
Well someone certainly asked where it's said it was due to damaged genes (>>14228464).
>>14226599
On its own, that's fine. Donald Trump wouldn't be needed if immigrants actually did this in real life, though.
>>14231102
Yeah, but Gil's a bit old to be a third generation Coordinator. He died at the age of 32 in CE 74, where the first Coordinators after George Glenn revealed himself to the world were only secretly made around CE 16 by wealthy families. The main boom didn't happen until CE 30. He's 32, and Coordinators have only been a thing for 58 years. That means he was born (and a third generation Coordinator) when Coordinators had only been around for 26 years.
So, unless both previous generations had extremely young teenage pregnancies, it doesn't add up.
Also, Kira is a first Gen but Lacus is a second gen. What does that mean for their children?
>>14228763
Doesn't the second series take the whole "pointlessness" of the Ultimate Coordinator and play it up anyway?
>>14226599
I don't think it's a bad ideal either
Based monarchies
>>14228474
You blind motherfucker.
>>14235088
Destiny runs with the idea of the Ultimate Coordinator being this crazy superman that the fandom, and spinoffs had since been assuming.
Durandal spends like 5 minutes gushing about the superiority of Kira's genes and how if only he was raised to be a stone cold killer from a young age instead of the reluctant warrior he was, then nobody would ever be able to defeat him.
>>14235824
The one thing I wish they had done was use one of Loran's next lines. He states that Kira doesn't understand the weight of spilled blood.
![[Lunamaria] Mobile Suit Gundam SEED Destiny HD Remaster - 27 [BD][720p-AAC][8DCB16D7].mkv_snapshot_19.39_[2016.05.15_22.55.41].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/E1g8Y9P.jpg "[Lunamaria] Mobile Suit Gundam SEED Destiny HD Remaster - 27 [BD][720p-AAC][8DCB16D7].mkv_snapshot_19.39_[2016.05.15_22.55.41].jpg")
Since this is the only Destiny thread up at the moment, let me ask this here.
Why doesn't Cagalli just go back to Orb and work on backing out of the Alliance, instead of just intervening in their battles?
>>14237580
Because she, like everyone else, is a moron in Destiny.
>>14212703
You are my sempai
>>14237580
She has many opportunities to do so, but constantly lets herself be undermined by the Seirans attempts to damage her self esteem by second guessing her.
Which is something the self assured, headstrong (admittedly kinda stupid) Cagallli from SEED wouldn't have cared about.
>>14237580
>Watching the Remaster
>>14237921
No, Cagalli was always the sort of person to run away from any sort of real responsiblity and prefers to fight rather than anything else. Her father calls her out on this back in SEED when she ran to the desert. Add that with the psychological effects the war had on everyone (Kira spens like half the series given those 1000 yard stares), is it really a surprise that she's pushover?
>>14237580
Because if she did that, then bad blood between the Archangel and the Minerva wouldn't develop. The show would need other reasons to justify it's "Shinn V. Kira Dawn of Bullshit" angle. Plus, it's Fukuda who cares less about morals and themes and more about the show entertaining the audience.
>>14212596
Ignoring the destiny plan he literally does nothing wrong. It's so stupid seeing Kira and friends fighting him for the whole series with no justification.
>>14212703
>Zeon did nothing wrong
this is my favourite meme, you actually have to be retarded/delusion to think they did nothing wrong.
>>14238546
I said this before and I'll say it again: the "Destiny Plan" was a bullshit cop-out that Fukuda and Morosawa came up with at the last minute in order to have Durandal be actually villainous at the end.
Most of Destiny's plot had to be improvised as the episodes piled on. Apart from giving priority to Kira and Athrun in lieu of the newer cast, it's clear that nobody had any idea where the story was going, so they had to make shit up. This explains the constant recap episodes and sequences, and the reused footage.
>>14212596
>Ignoring him pointing a giant laser at Orb
>Ignoring mass-genocide
>Ignoring plans for said mass-genocide
>>14238721
It's pretty clear even just watching the first episode that Durandal was always going I be a villain. Putting aside his VA and shifty eyes, he's implied to be behind the robbery of the ZAFT Gundams even in that one episode and audiences worldwide were calling him out as both the ultimate cause of that robbery and a villain from literally episode one.
Morasawa might have made the Destiny Plan at the last minute to give him a goal that's evil enough, but unless you're blind as well as deaf he was obviously a villain from the get go.
>>14238778
>Ignoring mass-genocide
Which actually did not happen. In fact, it was the Earth Alliance who were committing mass murder on a regular basis.
>>14237580
Because it wouldn't have worked. Seiran's had everyone in their pocket by fear mongering about EA attacking them and nobody wanted to listen to Cagalli.
That's not to say intervering in the battles would work either but there was nothing she really could have done without lots of Orb people dying anyway.
The only reason she took back control was because Zaft invaded and everyone that opposed her convieniently died in the attack.
>>14239684
>Because it wouldn't have worked.
>nobody wanted to listen to Cagalli.
False. First of all, we have the dipshit Seirans marrying Cagalli out of political reasons. If she was irrelevant, then why the marriage?
Second, Colonel Todaka, (alongside a number of Orb's military, were fully loyal to Cagalli. If she had ordered them to rebel against the Seirans during, say, Crete, they would've done so. Instead, she just stood there in the Rouge, doing nothing except with a pathetic appeal to "Orb's values".
>>14240103
> If she was irrelevant, then why the marriage?
I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with your overall point, since I've not seen most of Destiny to hold an opinion, but he was presumably marrying her for legitimacy. Even if Cagalli wasn't respected or obeyed her father was, and anyone who marries her gains legitimacy in the eyes of the population through his name.
>>14240126
I recall a scene where the Seirans are badgering her into making certain decisions by questioning her judgement, which kind of implies that said decisions ultimately lie with her.
>>14240153
Well she is the queen (representative)
And her soldiers, at least, are legitimately torn up at the question of opening fire on her
>>14220098
>slaughter millions of mobile suits for my Queen of the Universe Lacus
>teases me with these words
Being Kira would be amazing, fuck me.
>>14237580
I was so glad Athrun didn't buy into their bullshit in this scene and hoped maybe Cagalli would get it together. But they continue to do the same thing over and over until it "works" and Athrun's character becomes even more nuts, he literally can't live if he's not sucking on Kira's dick
>>14240153
They do, until she agrees to marry Yuna, at which point he pretty much gets control of Orb until he relinguishes it back to her.
However the Seirans basically force her hand by setting things up while she was away so that she basically has to agree with her.
They set up the alliance with EA on the basis of giving aid to countries harmed in the J7 drop. Cagalli could have refused but then she'd make Orb look terrible in the eyes of the nations of the earth by refusing to help them after Yuna promised them aid.
Likewise the marriage was set up and planned and scheduled entirely by Yuna while she was up in space, and only told about it when it was too late to back out without causing a massive political scandal.
Cagalli could have just told everyone and the world to fuck off, and control would have remained with her, but it would make her and Orb look even worse.
So really the end of the story is she never should have gone on that trip to plant at the beginning of Destiny.
>>14240890
Why would they need the alliance to give aid.
Why not just say "No alliance, but I'll give you some aid anyway"
>>14240911
I admit that makes little sense. But that's how it was set up. I guess EA set it up to force nations to join them if they wanted to help.
>>14240890
>>14240911
>>14240967
I still don't understand why it was so difficult for Cagalli to just tell the Seirans to go fuck themselves. Throughout all those early episodes, she was utterly devoid of any spine: Cagalli said something, Yuna retorted with some bullshit and Cagalli just limited herself to mumble (eh...? but...? however...?).
>>14243487
Throughout Destiny, it's clear that the Seirans do not have any legitimacy for their actions in an on themselves. Everything they did depended on Cagalli giving her (tacit) approval, hence the arranged marriage.
Even when she did her stunt in Crete, the only thing Yuna could say was that "it's not the real Cagalli!" .
>>14240890
>So really the end of the story is she never should have gone on that trip to plant at the beginning of Destiny.
On top of that:
>Athrun never gets urge to rejoin ZAFT.
>Athrun helps Cagalli grow a spine, most of the Seiran shit is averted.
>With no Athrun on the ship to lust after, Luna starts her relationship with Shinn much earlier.
>Shinn never meets Stella.
>No fucks are given when Shinn destroys the, er, Destroy.
