Why did the Gelgoog do so poorly against GMs?
And don't say "le badly trained pilots." Cause Amuro wasn't trained at all when he fell into the Gundam's cockpit and he did just fine against trained Zaku pilots.
And the Gelgoog was supposed to be the equal to the Gundam in terms of performance.
And I'm just meaning vs GM. It makes sense that Gelgoogs just die when the Gundam merely glances in their direction, since Amuro is OP, but GMs are bearly any better then Zakus performance wise, and they're not made out of Gundamium Alloy like the Gundam is.
So why did Gelgoogs shit the bed so badly?
>>14127862
>Cause Amuro wasn't trained at all when he fell into the Gundam's cockpit and he did just fine against trained Zaku pilots.
Because the Gundam is vastly superior to the Zaku, but the Gelgoog is just on par with the GM. Being as good as the Gundam doesn't mean anything by itself.
>>14127862
Zakus couldn't damage the Gundam in any reasonable amount of time while Amuro was still inexperienced.
The newbie Gelgoog pilots don't have that luxury against a GM's Beam Spray Gun.
>>14127862
>Cause Amuro wasn't trained at all when he fell into the Gundam's cockpit and he did just fine against trained Zaku pilots.
The Gundam was also literally impervious to their 120mm rifles. Did you forget the part where he blocked a rifle with the Gundam?
>And I'm just meaning vs GM. It makes sense that Gelgoogs just die when the Gundam merely glances in their direction, since Amuro is OP, but GMs are bearly any better then Zakus performance wise, and they're not made out of Gundamium Alloy like the Gundam is.
This is incorrect. The GM was, performance wise, superior both to the Zaku II and Rick Dom, and while inferior to the Gelgoog, the "literal children for pilots" thing is still pretty relevant, alonsgide being outnumbered by both the GMs and Ball units.
>>14127869
This too.
>>14127862
Beam spray guns, beam spray guns everywhere.
>>14127862
Is the screenshot from one of those arcade card games?
I would think that Doms and Gelgoogs have poorer usability unlike the Zaku which was much easier to pilot and that was why the Hizack was adopted.
>>14127862
It goes well beyond inexperienced pilots.
The Gelgoog was on par with the Gundam and superior to the GM. But unlike a Gundam verses a Zaku, a GM has multiple weapons that could harm a gelgoog because It was made out of a steel alloy and not luna titanium. Numbers and the fact it was a defensive battle at A Baoa Qu also played a factor since they were more than likely assigned to defend specific areas, so if a Feddie broke through them, this then caused hesitation by form of the question of if they should go to pursue, or hold their position, which leads to further complications since now they could be attacked from multiple angles as opposed to just the front.
An extremely overlooked part of the GM vs Gelgoog is that the GM had all of Amuro's data programed into them to act as a major crutch for the Feddie pilots. Now we don't know if the Zeon ever adopted and implemented similar data from their ace pilots since it was never mentioned, but we do know the Feddies did.
So here are the known factors.
>Pilot's inexperience
>Weaponry
>Numbers
>Area of battle
>Amuro's data
>>14127862
>And don't say "le badly trained pilots." Cause Amuro wasn't trained at all when he fell into the Gundam's cockpit and he did just fine against trained Zaku pilots.
The Learning Computer is very powerful
>>14127862
>And the Gelgoog was supposed to be the equal to the Gundam in terms of performance.
It's not. Its specs show that it has much slower acceleration and with the MC the Gundam has a significantly faster reaction time.
>And I'm just meaning vs GM. It makes sense that Gelgoogs just die when the Gundam merely glances in their direction, since Amuro is OP, but GMs are bearly any better then Zakus performance wise, and they're not made out of Gundamium Alloy like the Gundam is.
All the GMs had data from the Gundam's Learning Computer. The Learning Computer basically creates macros to make MS easier to pilot. The Gelgoog had a completely brand new cockpit and control scheme but all the old pilots were used to Zakus and Doms (in universe this is implicitly true because the Unified Maintenance Plan was made this standardized parts and controls, and only a select few MS are part of the plan).
>>14127862
>why did my waifu ms do badly
>I don't wanna hear the primary reason it did badly
>gelgoog did nothing wrong
REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
But did it really do poorly against GMs? Zeon's manufacturing output was a fraction of the Federation's and they used a lot of it on building mobile armors and customised variants. It's not like 100 Gelgoogs got wiped out by 100 GMs. More like 200 Gelgoogs, 378 Rick Doms, and 500 Zakus go wiped out by 1,200 GMs and 2,000 Balls with heavy ship support.
>>14128031
Area of Battle is headcanon but otherwise correct.
GMs are surprisingly even with the Gundam on performance.
>>14128169
>Headcannon
Oooo, new buzzword is being developed.
Watch MS IGLOO again before making those assumptions.
https://youtu.be/VMPoN8enFH4?t=8m11s
You seem them get shot/attacked in the back multiple times.
Zakus didnt have any beam rifles like the GM does, which made thier bullets useless to the Gundam's vastly superior armor. So a well trained GM pilot could take on a Gundam if he wanted to, same thing apply to Gelgoogs
>>14127862
Why did N1K1-J do so poorly against F4U-1?
>Amuro wasn't trained at all when he fell into the Gundam's cockpit
Amuro was a newtype and he had superior armor - 120mm Zaku MG couldn't penetrate Gundam's armor so well.
>>14128300
>Oooo, new buzzword is being developed.
For a guy who's been here as long as you, to think 'headcanon' is a new idea is just sadly naive.
>>14127862
The answer is simple. Almost every pilot worth a damn was in Chimera. Just look at those guys, Johnny was such a beast even Yazan + Ingrid had problems with him, how long could Amuro have possibly lasted if they gang banged him with Gelgoogs?
>>14127862
badly trained pilots.
>>14128461
You're replying to Black Knight anon. If you know how long he's been here you know what it means to try to reply to him.
>>14128373
GMs don't have Gundarium/Luna Titanium armor. They do have titanium alloy armor, though.
Old boxart is really great.
Magellan, Salamis, or Pegasus class?Hard mode: Columbus class
>>14128788
The old GM visors always made them look like they're perpetually terrified.
Most of these I got off of the blog Gundam Explored on Tumblr. If any of you guys know of any good Gundam/older mecha art repositories, do share.
>>14128803
You can just search for Okawara on Danbooru and the like.
>>14127862
GMs have vastly superior sensors to every Zeon mobile suit at the time. There's a very good reason there's so many sniper and artillery variants. The Gelgoogs literally didn't see what hit them.
Also, Gelgoogs were only put out at the tail end when Zeon was pushed back to space and had their back against the wall.
Also, we know they were outumbered as fuck.
>>14129063
Gelgoog has a longer sensor range than GM
>>14127869
>>14127862
Being as good as a Gundam performance wise doesn't mean shit. The Gundam was great because it had Luna Titanium, ie the main difference between the Gundam and the GM. Gelgoogs are still gonna get one shoted by a beam gun, a well placed beam saber, or vulcans like any other Zeon suit.
>>14128802
Personally I think they look like some dude just strapped a painted cardboard costume on himself.
Gelgoog was Zeon's Me-262. It came too late and was given to mostly children and a few veterans.
>>14130114
To think Hitler could have had a Air Force full of jet fighters and bombers if he had let scientists and engineers start developing jet aircraft in 1942/43
>>14130276
German jet engine development began in the 1930s. First jet powered flight was 1936 and Me 262 began development in 1939.
>>14128797
/thread
There was no way that the Gelgoogs were gonna stand up to the mighty Balls.
>>14130280
Still though, why he didn't pursue this huge technological advantage is beyond me, if I could develop and build weapons far superior to my enemies I would
>>14130338
He did. That's why stuff like the Me 262 and Maus exists.
Of course, not having any oil means they couldn't be deployed effectively.
>>14130338
the british meteor was only one month behind in deployment.
If the me262 actually became a series problem the british would have just started using the meteor more aggressively.
>>14127862
gelgoogs are superior but at the end of oyw were piloted by fuck wad recruits with no exp
>>14129106
I agree and that's why it's great.
>>14128797
Why did they not deploy upgraded balls in Zeta and later wars?
>>14130599
balls were a stopgap design, they were only ever temporary and not meant as a proper space fighting vehicle, they got phased out as soon as the EFF could afford to go with all MS forces instead.
if it makes you feel any better, crossbone invented a ball variant
>>14130613
>Monster Ball.
>>14130599
The Ball kinda lived on in spirit as the Gwigsy in Victory Gundam, but these dudes somehow jobbed worse than even your average grunt. The things couldn't even dent the Victory's armor, much less the Einerads that showed up later. Oddly, they were Zanscare/BESPA-use rather than Federation.
It's a shame, too, because they actually have multiple "modes"; one with two legs, the front pair being used as manipulators, and the other using all four appendages to gallop.
>>14128803
tumblr resizes images. Yande.re and any other booru is preferable.
Pilot inexperience is the one part where Tomino drew clear comparison to the WW2 Japan / Germany. But in the 0079 TV it was never clearly shown, at least not as blatant as the scene in Thunderbolt ep4 which only we got just now.
Thing is, both the Feds and Zeon were short on pilots, but Zeon was much more significantly understaffed while trying to keep dominance over large range of territories both on earth and in the Sides. EFF on the other hand at least could still solve some problems by sheer numbers. Look at Operation Odessa. The part on Zeon not putting vets in instructor roles in bases but kept sending their aces back to the front to get killed is also a reference to WW2.
>>14130114
It isn't known to combust due to essential components of the turbines being made from ersatz materials, to suffer from being constantly rebuilt so that it could do everything, to suffer from a lack of fuel... Still just in terms of mechanical behaviour, the Zuhdan probably is a closer equivalent.
>>14130338
Hitler was not a reasonable man. He wasn't even American and yet he believed that Manifest Destiny applied to him and his plans, for one.
I was wondering, aside from beam weapons, was the Gelgoog necessary? I thought the Dom was good enough. In the novel version, to simply and keep the number of MS models to a minimum, there were only Zakus and Doms, with the Dom wielding a beam bazooka and low convergence rate beam saber.
>>14131518
Main difference was that TV Zeon was more like WW2 Germany where they wasted too much resources on new models.
Novel Zeon was actually winning and the war was 3 years long.
>>14131522
>TV Zeon was more like WW2 Japan, the Nazi stuff was added in the OVAs and games
The Dom is the next most recognisable Zeon MS after the Zaku. It was also built in in large quantities of 3000+. Gelgoog may have been a state of the art, but historically it did not leave a strong impression.
Likewise, the Dreissen was the mainstay of Axis and Gelgoogs never got good spotlight.
This was until Thunderbolt came along were Gelgoog were shown to be competent, and the Zaku and Doms were introduced at the same time at the beginning of the chapeter 1.
>>14131535
Who are you quoting?
Also
>hey son your whole "Zeon is the master race" thing really reminds me of this guy Adolf Hitler
>gas the colonies
etc.
>>14131591
side 3=Japan
other Colonies=Pacific islands/ other asian nations
EF=US
Zeon preaches that it want to free the colonies from Earth oppression like how japan said it wanted to free the Asian Pacific countries from western oppression, both did this while commiting atrocities against those they claimed to be helping. the war in space can be likened to the pacific front with the colonies/space fortresses representing the islands the US fought the Japanese over.
alltought i think Zeon is more supposed to be a mix of Germany and Japan
>>14131535
>the guy literally compared to adolf hilter leading a chant of "sieg zeon"
There were definitely heavy nazi elements in the TV too.
>>14131642
It's also worth pointing out the whole colony drop/pearl harbour thing.
You're right of it being a general mix of both, though.
>>14131675
I would even say, Tomino was using 0079 as a commentary / critique to WW2 Japan, with the cosmetics of WW2 Germany as a cover, all while originally being commissioned to do just another robot toy show. This to me is why he and the series became a classic.
>>14131591
>gas the colonies
more like
>turn your own people into bullets, now with more actual projectiles
>>14128710
There is some truth to this but not all good pilots were chimera corps.
Also, the anti-newtype chimera-corps were designed to battle Char and his newtype units not Amuro--Kycilia was thinking that post-OYW she would have to fight Gihren.
>>14128117
This. The gelgoog I believe outclassed a lot of the front line Freddie forces, but the problem was that there just wasn't enough to push them back. The federation threw everything at ABQ. I mean by this point, zeon was deploying zakus and test models to just try and even out the numbers. I mean that can be said pretty much for all suits produced by zeon a bit after the gouf. It wasn't so much that there was a huge difference in suit capabilities, but by the time the Rick Dom was being rolled out, the federation had built up a huge force in a short period. Zeon production could never ever ever EVER hope to keep up.
BTW the Gundams performance is pretty overstated imo. It wasn't much better than a GM, but Amuro was just an absolute monster of a pilot and since the Gundam far outperformed a zaku, it was a good crutch until Amuro started tapping into his potential. (as in the most damage done to the Gundam was Amuro ripping the suit apart because it couldn't keep up with his capabilities)
>>14131926
Pretty much. Kinda like the Panther or Tiger tanks during WW2. Good tanks and a fair match for anything they were up against but just not enough of them to matter.
>>14129066
this.
>>14131522
Novel zeon actually wins the war
>>14131825
>Kycilia was thinking that post-OYW she would have to fight Gihren.
Wait, I thought it was that she was thinking that she would have to fight a newtype rebellion post-oyw led by Char?
>>14128461
You're still using it extremely haphazardly and incorrectly, plus for all the years of canon discussion, I've only seen that term more recently.
>>14131825
Now this is something I never heard of, something from that new Johnny Ridden manga?
>>14131518
The Gelgoog was an all around better unit than the Rick Dom in almost every known aspect on paper. The only thing the Rick Dom has over the Gelgoog is thicker armor (It was able to shrug off vulcan rounds that tore through Zakus) and the scattering beam cannon.
Zakus had machineguns and GMs had beams
>>14131642
>Literally a battle of Solomon to mirror the solomon islands
The more I read up on WWII the more surprised I am at the nearly countless similarities between the pacific theater and the entire OYW. The Japanese also ran rampant over the US Navy early on and it was nothing but defeat after defeat for the US. Japan's main hope for victory was a campaign of shock in order to force a favorable treaty to end hostilities. They knew they couldn't survive a protracted war. Just like with Zeon and the Federation, as the war dragged on their resources were severely strained and all the ground they had gained was lost until the enemy was essentially at the gates. Going further, just like in the later UC there remained holdouts of the japanese army for years in remote locations. People who refused to believe the war had been lost or to surrender. The parallels are practically endless.
>>14130345
eh...
>>14134551
Well, that is rather a large point of the entire series. "Influence" is too small a word.
>>14130280
They could have had jets earlier than the Me 262, if they figured out the problem with the HeS-08 and pressed the He 280 into service.
They probably wouldn't have needed jets, if they just massproduced the He 100 instead of the Bf 109.
>>14133936
At least he could spell the fucking word right you blind mongoloid.
'headcannon' is not a thing in gendum unless you're talking ZZ, that one Tieren variant, or being extremely generous when talking about vulcans.
>>14127862
I always wanted to fuck a Gelgoog
>>14134615
Even more promising would be the prospect of the war continuing on the backs of HeS.08 and BMW-003 powered interceptors until the HeS.011 that nearly EVERY SINGLE late war design depended on and required to work comes out because everyone wanted to have the new front line fighter contract that would make use of the latest and greatest meme engine. And then Heinkel goes 'fuck that' and throws a -003 atop a plywood deathrap and it goes retard fast.
>>14134665
If all you can do is quibble over a extra n, I'll assume my main point is valid.
>>14127862
1) Inexperienced pilots
2) Weaker armor materials
3) Beam weaponry used by the opposition
>>14137146
I'm the anon who first said Area of Battle was headcanon (quick check of the archives notes that it's been in use for at least six years, meaning "something you made up but you'll pretend actually happened in the story").
IGLOO doesn't show crap about the area itself having a major impact on the battle. It looks like a normal space battle where one side is outnumbered. Since MS are fast, this happens a lot.
>the fact it was a defensive battle at A Baoa Qu also played a factor since they were more than likely assigned to defend specific areas, so if a Feddie broke through them, this then caused hesitation by form of the question of if they should go to pursue, or hold their position, which leads to further complications since now they could be attacked from multiple angles as opposed to just the front.
>they were more than likely
AKA I have no sources to defend anything after these words
Military theory states the defense has a 3:1 force multiplication advantage so Gelgoogs should actually have the upper hand in the "area of battle" standpoint. Yes, the location you're defending can be surrounded but you are still able to fight off about three times the normal enemy power. Which means it comes down to pure numbers, not area.
>>14127862
the gelgoog was literally used in the last week of the war or something like that
also the federation attacked the final zeon fortress with a lot of experience pilots and a shit load of gms and warships like the magellan and salamis
even if zeon won the final battle they had no resources for anything else and would have surrendered or been invaded by the federation
>>14127862
>>14133936
>>14131825
>Now this is something I never heard of, something from that new Johnny Ridden manga?
>Also, the anti-newtype chimera-corps were designed to battle Char and his newtype units not Amuro--Kycilia was thinking that post-OYW she would have to fight Gihren.
No, MSV-R Johnny Ridden manga just tells us that Chimera corps had artificial NTs. I'm pretty sure both Chimera and Char's unit were both under Kycilia's thumb. Ghiren didn't raise any special forces units himself, he was too concerned with the overall war situation and command of the Zeon military as a whole to groom small elite units.
>>14134602
I'm not saying Hitler was clever or smart (shit like the Maus which he approved just isn't practical and is similar to Zeon wasting time and resources on ineffective weirdass mobile armors), but jet technology was in development. It's just a bit silly that the guy thinks the Luftwaffe could have gone fully jet engine-equipped if they started in 1942. That and there are way more issues the Me 262 and jet tech in general had to overcome instead of just "Hitler fucked it up".
Hitler didn't exactly have absolute control over everything he approved and disapproved. The STG-44, world's first assault rifle? Hitler tried to stop development for it twice but development continued anyway.
>>14127862
Gelgoog looks like a really docile animal in that pic...
Ten Gelgoogs with cadets.
Six Gelgoogs with regular troops.
>>14141150
>Thinking a battle field where you can be instantly attacked from 360 angles can be applied to modern warfare.
With AMBAC, modern aerial combat can't even be used as a proper comparison because those battles are done in passes while in mobile suits can turn 180 on dime, Macross Zero style. This is what makes defense a lot harder since once of a wave of enemy units pass you, they can immediately turn around and attack your backside. You also aren't taking into account Minovsky Particle interference.
>Military theory states the defense has a 3:1 force multiplication advantage.
Going to show me the chart on what and how you get specific force multiplication advantage? Considering you aren't taking into account all the other possible variables I find your claim dubious at best.
Plus the fact you see units being attack from behind multiple times in the battle. You're looking at field of battle 2 dimensionlly thinking it only applies to terrain. Which is where you're wrong and the the video backs on my side.
>>14144905
I should note that while it is a guideline at best, it is generally accepted as a rough estimation.
>https://books.google.com/books?id=nveiS7HeqQUC&pg=PA78&lpg=PA78&dq=military+defending+advantage+3:1+rule&source=bl&ots=GpLnFAo15u&sig=wOnusMBMDWm5eI5RNTUZ98d06b4&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiPiP2Tq6PMAhVJeSYKHZn0AxEQ6AEIUTAH
>Indeed, an often quoted rule of thumb suggests that the defender can hold at an engaged force ratio of 3:1 in favor of the offense. This would be consistent with a 3:1 exchange rate.
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Force_concentration
>Traditionally it is accepted that a defending force has a 3:1 advantage over an attacker. In other words, a defending force can hold off three times its own number of attackers.
http://faculty.nps.edu/mkress/docs/A_new_look.pdf
>it can be seen that the 3:1 rule is valid for battle conditions that may be quite realistic in actual combat.
http://www.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc?AD=ADA566701
>the 3:1 rule
http://www.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc?AD=ADA302819
>The famous 3:1 rule
etc.
If you want to try to completely and accurately quantify A Baoa Qu's battle conditions to prove me wrong then be my guest but in general 3:1 is a fair guideline to assume.
>>14144905
I never said anything about aerial combat. If anything, MS combat is closest to infantry combat, which means Minovsky interference is negligible.
>Plus the fact you see units being attack from behind multiple times in the battle.
>>a battle field where you can be instantly attacked from 360 angles
In your own words, retard. Either of them can be attacked from any angle, the Gelgoogs in your video (nor any statistically relevant population of Gelgoogs at A Baoa Qu) is at no disadvantage in terms of "area of battle" that the GM is not. The Gelgoogs are surrounded not because they are at a territorial disadvantage, but because they are outnumbered.
Looking back on your first post, I just noticed you mentioned weaponry in there. I'd like to hear why the Gelgoog is at a disadvantage when it has a beam rifle and a beam naginata while the GM has a beam spray gun and a beam saber (and useless vulcans). It clearly has superior weaponry.
>>14147651
You must be new here.
It's completely pointless to debate with Black_Knight. He's the most correct person to ever be completely correct about absolutely everything, ever (just ask him). You will never see him concede a single point, you're wasting your time trying to convince him of anything.
Or, as Seijuro Hiko said:
It is foolish to listen to one who will not listen to you.
>>14147756I just like his retarded arguments to be archived
