>>13879804
It means they're posting from 2009.

>>13879804
It means they read tvtropes instead of fucking watching shows.

>>13879804
The ol' decon/recon meme.

>>13879875
Tvtropes is a fucking mess of a website. The whole thing over simplifies plots and characters to make it fit within their narrow scope of what they feel is a "trope".

>>13879804
Basically apparently giant robots shows are about some hot blooded guy with his friends beating evil monster of the weeks.

So anything that moves away from that, especially if it brings in the problems that actually piloting a giant robot would bring to a person's life, is a 'deconstruction'. Despite the fact that these sort of things are all over early giant robot shows, including Mazinger Z.

It all stems from people masturbating to Evangelion, which is a good show, but people back in the 90s in the West had no idea about the context it existed in.

>>13879804

It normally means someone liked a show and is desperate to assign it more significance than it needs.

According to tvtropes, a "genre deconstruction" is:

"The genre is basically boiled down to a set of tropes, conventions and a typical premise. All of these features are then played straight; without shying away from any unpleasant consequences and/or causes of these features. Basically, the heart of the genre is laid bare, warts and all. It is not solely done to denote how unpleasant a genre or trope is, but to break away from the clichés and stock themes said genre or trope has acquired."

Considering that Zambot is a highly unconventional and atypical super robot series that was trying to set itself apart from the rest, I'd say it's pretty much as far away from that definition as possible.

>>13879971
>to break away from the clichés and stock themes said genre or trope has acquired."

>Zambot...was trying to set itself apart from the rest

>>13879971
>according to tvtropes
And why is tvtropes authoritative on this?

>>13879980
>The genre is basically boiled down to a set of tropes, conventions and a typical premise

Zambot doesn't do that at all though so
the rest of the definition is kind of irrelevant. Daitarn is actually closer to what that's describing.

>>13879984
I thought "genre deconstruction" was a tvtropes thing in general.

>>13879992
>Zambot doesn't do this at all though
Yes it does, what are you on? It has
>A hotblooded kid pilot
>A combining robot that is the some defender of Earth
>An evil space empire that attacks humanity with a new monster every week
>An old professor guy that acts as the main character's commander
>His commands are usually ignored
You could describe nearly every 70s mecha show in this way. What makes Zambot stand out is that it takes the formula and breaks away from it by doing things with it that other shows hadn't done at the time. Daitarn doesn't bother with the formula at all

>>13880030
>some
*lone
On mobile, it happens

>>13880030
>You could describe nearly every 70s mecha show in this way
Yeah exactly, you are just listing the basic elements that make something a super robot show in the first place. Why not also say the robot punches stuff and has a theme song where its name is repeated.

Outside of generic things like the pilot being hot blooded and the robot combining, Zambot was completely different than the other 70s super robot shows. The entire point was to get away from cliches and break the mold (which Tomino would further do with Gundam), not to emphasize cliches and run with it like that definition says. Which is precisely what Daitarn does.

>>13880051
I'd argue that Ideon, not Gundam, was where Tomino tried to break away from Super Robot cliches. Ideon really broke the mold for Super Robot. Gundam set out to do something other than a Super Robot show.

>>13880051
Daitarn feels more like a Time Bokan show than anything, but far less rigid in formula. While it certainly does stand out among other 70s shows for several reasons (going in locations other than Japan (just like OG Gaiking), the title mecha itself being used as a carrier ship, an ambiguous ending that causes discussion to this day, etc), at the end of the day, it doesn't take itself seriously at all most of the time.

>>13879804
it means they don't actually watch anything

>>13879971
>"The genre is basically boiled down to a set of tropes, conventions and a typical premise. All of these features are then played straight; without shying away from any unpleasant consequences and/or causes of these features. Basically, the heart of the genre is laid bare, warts and all. It is not solely done to denote how unpleasant a genre or trope is, but to break away from the clichés and stock themes said genre or trope has acquired."
So Evangelion isn't even a ddconstruction by their own definition.

>>13880051
> Zambot was completely different than the other 70s super robot shows
Again, I don't see how. It's the same show doing a different thing. Daitarn is a different show, doing a different thing, and also has very little in terms of mecha cliches. Are you sure you're not getting these two shows mixed up? Daitarn is the one with the butler, the Transformer, and the Charlie's Angels.

> not to emphasize cliches and run with it like that definition says
And this is why TVtropes and their definitions are shit, because I got something completely different out of that definition. How I understand it is:
>Take a type of show
>show how what happens in that type of show could have different consequences than what is normally portrayed while still being believable about it.

And this is what Zambot does. It starts with the usual formula, and then strays from it. It does not stray far, however. People die, the villain gets bored of MotW and puts people into concentration camps and such, but at the end of the day, Zambot 3 still combines, fights some big monster and saves the day to the (eventual) cheering of the crowds.

>>13880328
tvtropes lists Evangelion, Gundam, Patlabor, Bokurano, and Nadesico as deconstructions of the mecha genre. If you were curious:
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/GenreDeconstruction/AnimeAndManga

By their definition I would say Patlabor actually does fit that bill pretty well. Not sure about Nadesico as that's basically an outright parody. Gundam is tricky because like the other guy said that was moreso trying to do something new entirely.

memes

>>13879804

they mean they're idiots

Evangelion ripped the mecha genre apart and then Gaogaigar fixed it. That's why he carries around a screwdriver and a hammer.

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>>13880445


>YFW Daiguard is really a deconstruction
>YFW it doesn't it all without a shred of cynicism, without making fun of the genre and it's fans
>YFW it shows that humans are generally good and capable of doing the right thing and truly want to help out in times of crisis

>>13880888
deep

>>13880030
>breaks away from it by doing things with it that other shows hadn't done at the time
Mazinger manga trilogy already did what Zambot did.

>>13880910
And that's not even bringing Getter into consideration either

>>13880910
Really? I only read the original Mazinger Z manga but it didn't do anything Zambot did outside of the basic motw template. It didn't really do anything at all other than setup the premise then the TV show took over, which also doesn't tread into Zambot territory.

>>13880930
What exactly did Zambot do different?

>>13880941
Make the protagonists suffer and be hated by the public, kill nearly all of them, destroy the robot, very grim and depressing atmosphere in general, explain how the pilots are able to use the mecha so well, have a complex combiner in general (although Getter Robo gets some credit there of course, but that's something unique to Mazinger), question whether or not humanity deserves to exist or not (edgy, but the first mecha series to explore this concept), use realistic weaponry, show the horror of the alien attack on a wide scale and not just center on the lab/base, not milk it for 50-100 episodes with no real direction or plot advancement, humanize the characters and show the potential weakness of the mecha instead of portraying them as invincible in the face of any threat.

So, outside the initial formula, literally everything.

>>13879804
I've always been under the impression that a 'deconstruction' of a genre simply takes the conceits, assumptions and traditions of said genre to their logical(and often unpleasant) conclusions. A reconstruction is then a show that plays those deconstructed concepts completely straight in such a way that demonstrates why they became popular enough to become an entire genre in the first place.

>>13880974
>Make the protagonists suffer
Duke Fleed. Space disease.

>hated by the public
Devilman.

>very grim and depressing atmosphere
Zambot is hardly grim and depressing.

>have a complex combiner
Combattler.

>use realistic weaponry
Are you serious?

>show the horror of the alien attack on a wide scale
Pretty much any Go Nagai series.

>not milk it for 50-100 episodes with no real direction or plot advancement
All 70s mecha shows have plot advancement. Zambot didn't have much more than them.

>humanize the characters
????

>show the potential weakness of the mecha instead of portraying them as invincible in the face of any threat.
Mazinger. Jeeg. What weakness did Zambot have? I don't remember any.

>So, outside the initial formula, literally everything.
Not really.

Tomino is late to the game.

>>13880974
>question whether or not humanity deserves to exist or not (edgy, but the first mecha series to explore this concept)
Earlier stuff like Astro Boy and Getter Robo did this. Probably Tetsujin, too. It's also pretty much run of the mill for Ishinomori manga.

>destroy the robot
This wasn't new either

>>13881003
>>13881006
My post was about Mazinger and Zambot. Not Jeeg, Getter Robo, Combattler, or anything else.

>>13881003
>What weakness did Zambot have? I don't remember any.
Considering that by the end of the series it is completely destroyed and 2/3 of the pilots are dead, I don't think I need to point out any particular weakness.

>>13881027
>2/3 of the pilots are dead
Which had little to do with Zambot itself.

>by the end of the series it is completely destroyed
Ever watched Mazinger Z vs The Great General of Darkness?

Sure, people died in Zambot 3, but people also died in Mazinger, Great Mazinger and Grendizer. I'm not going to believe that Zambot 3 is somehow special because it has people dying. That's ridiculous.

You're trying to paint Tomino as this wonderful writer who deconstructed the genre. Yet, Nagai and Ishinomori were already writing hard hitting stories even before Tomino. Heck, all Tomino was doing at the time was working with Mushi and making cheap anime for Tezuka.

Tomino's real contribution to the genre is not kill em all (He's been surpassed by Nagai way before). It's his introduction of the military's bigger involvement in the mecha genre.

>believing deconstructions or reconstructions exist instead of over reactions to coincidences

>>13881043
>Which had little to do with Zambot itself
How about the part about Zambot being completely destroyed? I'm questioning whether or not you watched the series with this comment.

>You're trying to paint Tomino as this wonderful writer who deconstructed the genre
This shows that you haven't been paying attention to anything I've been saying, as from the start of this thread my point is that Zambot is not a deconstruction at all.

Also comparing the death toll of Zambot to Mazinger series is pretty silly, only dispensable characters and villains die in Mazinger. Zambot not only has central characters dying but basically all of them outside the main one. Yes Getter Robo killed Musashi (one character) but again I'm still talking about how Mazinger supposedly did everything Zambot did.

>>13880974
>Make the protagonists suffer and be hated by the public
That happens in Toeizinger a few times, although it's always just isolated episodic incidents rather than a continuous plotline.

>destroy the robot
That happens in Mazinger though. Ir's the classic finale. I guess in the manga it's technically considered part of Great Mazinger though.

>explain how the pilots are able to use the mecha so well

In the tv show it takes almost 10 episodes before Kouji actually starts piloting the Mazinger decently. In the beginning he just mashes buttons and clearly doesn't know what the hell he was doing.

Sayaka is a trained pilot in all versions of the story, her robot just sucks in comparison and she isn't as talented.

>show the horror of the alien attack on a wide scale and not just center on the lab/base
In the tv show the city takes damage many times. There's also at least one episode I can remember right now where Dr.Hell places people inside the Mecha Beasts just to use them as human shields.

>not milk it for 50-100 episodes with no real direction or plot advancement

The 2nd half of the tv show had arcs fairly often, it's just the first half that's mainly episodic aside from the Scrander arc.

>and show the potential weakness of the mecha instead of portraying them as invincible in the face of any threat.

The Mazinger often had problems though. Heck, it's almost running out of energy during combat even around episode 6. In later episodes it's damaged fairly often too.

>>13881078
Now, on the other hand, it's true that Zambot actually was much less conservative with its cast, and darker in general. Mazinger does kill a recurring "good" character professor Mori Mori, but outside of that all deaths are either of villains or one shot characters.

Some of those one shot characters do get basically the entire episode focused on them though.

>>13881043
It's Gundamfag Syndrome. He saw that Tomino was involved and is assuming he was some great genius blazing a new trail for Super Robots.

>>13881093
I like Tomino but I've not painted him as a genius that blazed the trail for super robot series. If anything it is clear he did not like the genre as he went on to revolutionize the whole thing with Gundam. His super robot stuff is pretty much trivial.

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>>13881043
I'll take a crack at it.

What Zambot 3 did differently (at the time of it's creation) isn't so much the robot or the major characters; it's that it added in the results of what happens after a battle and what the civilians go through during the Gaizock invasion and how they might view a giant robot fighting aliens

Only a handful of people see Zambot 3 as a hero, everyone else thinks the invasion is their fault, and lament how many of their fights destroy the surrounding area (in one such episode, Zambot 3 is depicted as the ruiner of a city trying to destroy a mechaboost). You might find an episode or two in a series like Getter or Mazinger where someone blames the protagonist for X problem, but that's never a reoccurring theme in the series. In one of the earlier episodes Kappei Jin and his dad are attacked by an entire village and that animosity only grows as the series goes on.

In this series, it's not so much that "We're the only ones that can do it, guys!" it's more so that "We're alone in our mission and anyone who cares can't help us, and everyone else hates us."

The flamboyant Killer the Butcher aside, the Gaizock are around for one reason; to kill everyone. So they don't have to use Mechaboosts to do it, and attack humanity in ways that the protagonists can't overcome. They're helpless to watch as one acquaintance turns victim to the Gaizock's plot.

At the end of the series, the antagonists question the heroes. "Did anyone actually care about your useless struggle? Was your fight actually worth the trouble? Will anyone acknowledge you? Do you think humanity can actually be saved?"
Kappei is the only survivor of the battle, but at the end of the series he's FINALLY acknowledged as a hero.

I wouldn't so much as call it a deconstruction, but just as a different way to write the genre
Personally, I would call something like Dai-Guard a deconstruction, where fighting with a foe from 20 years ago isn't as important as developing the characters

>>13881111
He didn't revolutionize shit, as far as the parts of the industry he seemed to hate. Hell, he did them a favor, since the franchise he started has probably been Bandai/Sunrise's greatest cash cow ever.

>>13881118
>He didn't revolutionize shit
Which was the series before Gundam that created the real robot stuff then?

>>13881254
>implying 'real' robots aren't made-up bullshit for vidya

>>13881345
It's just an easy way to differentiate between the two major styles of mecha series. Has nothing to do with video games.

>>13881388
The term comes from Super Robot Wars games I believe.

>>13881394
Even if that was the case you (proof would be interesting) you think there's no difference between Mazinger/Getter Robo and Gundam/Votoms series?

>>13881422
Of course there's a difference.
There's also distinct differences between Gundam and Votoms. And Mazinger and Getter.

>>13881388
[citation needed]

>>13881254
Tetsujin 28.
Mass produced machine made for war (it is the 28th, after all) put to use for the mundane task of fighting everyday criminals. Special abilities involve punching, and also punching. Follows the commands of whoever has the control box.

>>13881394
"Real Robot series" was originally a marketing term used by Sunrise in the 80s for its other Gundam-like shows.

>deconstruction

I really want this sophomoric shit to go away.
Granted, it's a lot less rampant than say even a year ago, but sheesh.

>>13881448
>Tetsujin 28
Yeah, literally the first mecha series ever totally revolutionized the genre. Good point.

>>13881459

It will never go away, and you know it.