Sup /m/
I wanna ask - why do you watch Kamen Rider?
I'm genuinely curious, not trying to talk shit. I used to post here back when W was airing. I was big into Kabuto, and had this plan of watching every KR series - exhaustively, like I had already done with Gundam (oh god, how it hurt). Some random ep of W broke me: I found myself asking, what the fuck is the point?
The writing isn't good.
The jokes aren't funny.
The fight choreography is terrible.
The aesthetic, at best, is fun - but mostly its just cheesy.
It occurred to me that I was watching a badly written TV show designed to sell toys to children, and not much else. There's nothing wrong with that at all, but it just isn't appealing to me.
I've since figured out my own initial draw to it. It was always about the archetypes. I've got a big Jungian dick-on for codifying characters based on their role in an established mythos. /m/ shows are really creative about that. Like the Patronus concept from Harry Potter, /m/ heroes can distinguish themselves based on associative animals, but also color palates, costumes, vehicles. Aesthetic becomes mythic until the line between the two are blurred. This shit is aesthmythic. Mythsthetic?
But I can't figure out why anybody else would watch it! It's not like all of you are weird Campbellian writer-types. Do you just like to see your favorite toys doing sick shit? Or is there some good-ass writing in other Kamen Rider shows? Is it about the formula?
I don't want to come across as disrespectful. I think the fandom around /m/ shows is pretty neat. You guys are generally more critical and honest than the creeps over at /a/, which is why I started posting here in the first place. I'm asking as a nerd, out of respect for other nerds. What do you love about the things that you love?
TL;DR: For you personally, what is the point of Kamen Rider?
(pic related because I sincerely watched every fucking episode of Gundam Seed Destiny)
>>14348773
It's been a while since I watched a Kamen Rider series--I should get back into toku sometime--but in my case I liked some of the armor designs, fucking loved the manga, and when I watched Kabuto I got a kick out of the humor, at least. "Ultimate Supreme Makeup" never fails to make me lol.
>>14348803
LOL
Kabuto was my first series. I had a pretty similar reaction, but it all broke down the moment I tried (and failed) to describe the plot to a friend of mine. It was very embarrassing. I was like "I watch Mad Men too" but no dice. The damage was already done.
Besides that, it seems like:
fabulousness (AKA mocking masculinity)
wtfness (no clue what to expect next)
rider design
Are all significant draws. But, like, the first two are undermined (for me) by prevailing macho themes (not to mention the totally wretched handling of female characters) and the aggressive reliance on formula. Rider design can be enjoyed by looking at a photograph, or watching a youtube clip. Watching a whole series for rider design makes about as much sense to me as watching a whole porno and its sequels.
>>14348828
Yeah, Kamen Rider tends to be very formulaic, but the same can be said of mecha shows proper as well. Even a lot of the good ones, like GaoGaiGar, tend to be "monster of the week" a good chunk of the time.
>>14348773
>>14348773
It really doesnt
>>14348833
Yeah, you have a point there. Maybe I'm looking for the wrong kind of storytelling. People seem to treat W like the definitive "aw yeah, this is what I love about Kamen Rider" so maybe this just isn't the franchise I want it to be. That's fine too.
But, I have no issue with MotW storytelling. X-Files, Twilight Zone... uh... Seinfeld? Those are good shows, with little-to-no serialization to the story (X-Files main plot famously peaks in season 2/3 and turns to hot garbage after that, while their MotW eps stay solid). Maybe I just haven't seen the Kamen Rider series I want yet.
Or maybe I should just smoke more weed and watch Showa instead?
>>14348773
I haven't bothered keeping up with Rider for a while, although I've been watching Amazons. It's not really wowing me, and I'm going to be disappointed if it ends up lighter than it looked.
That said, I've been rewatching Agito and the humor isn't so painful and the choreography is better than most later shows if only because it doesn't constantly cut to closeups of hands fiddling with accessories.
>>14348865
Weed and Showa probably isn't a half-bad combo.
>>14348872
Weed and Showa is really great
>>14351105
I think OP is one of those people who are ashamed of liking things, which their circle of acquaintances does not approve of.
I think the loss of humanity, forced or otherwise, is one of the main things I think of when I think of Kamen Rider.
I consistently enjoy it as long as it isnt fucking BORING like Wizard is. Sadly Ghost is halfway there.
>>14348773
I like campy, cheesy shows with a lot of bad special effects.
>>14348773
>The writing isn't good.
It is if you actually know what you're watching
>The jokes aren't funny.
Well, yeah, but that's because it's japanese
>The fight choreography is terrible.
nope
>The aesthetic, at best, is fun - but mostly its just cheesy.
Yeah, it sometimes feels like it's a kiddy toy commercial.
>It occurred to me that I was watching a badly written TV show designed to sell toys to children, and not much else. There's nothing wrong with that at all, but it just isn't appealing to me.
Good, so?
> It's not like all of you are weird Campbellian writer-types.
Neither are you if you can't judge something on a different mindset than your own.
As for the point, I like ideallistic super heroes, the fights, the designs,the suits, and how the writers work around with the set toy catalog to make a show that works on its own. Also the recurring themes like how a Rider's fight is eternal, or how many of them have to sacrifice even their own humanity.
>>14351105
He's saying he thought the show undermined its own goal, you dipshit.
>>14351199
You don't respect tokusatsu. Please just kill yourself.
>>14351238
They're great fun to watch and I get to just sit back for 20 minutes or so a day and just feel happy and carefree.
I asked why Kamen Rider wasn't as good in any aspect as Samumenco, Metal Heroes, or even Ultraman of /krg/. They basically said "well it's just shit".
Therefore I propose we delete /krg/ and all Kamen Rider discussion from /m/, besides exclusively cyborg, android or robot Riders. Kamen Rider really has no place here.
>>14351258
Nope, fuck off.
>>14351264
No to what? Even the fans say the show is shit and I haven't gathered one real reason why it should be allowed on /m/ besides that the older riders were occasionally cyborgs. Toku as a whole still has a few reasons to be here, even if it's due to marginal stuff like Sentai's giant combiners or the sci-fi in Ultraman. Obviously you have a bunch of shows like GR that are proper /m/. But other Kamen Rider shows are basically a cancer. See the whole Maurice debacle that shit up the front page for weeks and weeks.
So besides muh mods word, give me a reason why Kamen Rider belongs here.
>>14351296
You're a fucking "X ISN'T /m/" troll and don't deserve the time of day.
Fuck off.
>>14348773
If I stick around for a Kamen Rider as it airs for a season, which I don't always do, it's usually because I like the cast. The story is just sorta...a contrivance to make the characters interact and also sell toys.
Let me give examples of how this has played out for me recently:
I really ended up liking Haruto from Wizard, which might have been the most mundane 50 something episode experience of my life. But I kept watching.
I loved pretty much the whole cast of Drive and enjoyed each episode no matter how stupid as fuck it got.
I watched 8 episodes of Ghost but Takeru didn't really click with me as a character and I found it hard to invest myself in the series. I've since watched up until 11 but I'm really forcing it.
But that's just me.
>>14351258
>I asked why Kamen Rider wasn't as good in any aspect as Samumenco, Metal Heroes, or even Ultraman of /krg/.
It has better fight choreography than Samumenco.
It's still on unlike Metal Heroes.
It does new shit unlike Ultraman.
>>14351296
> the sci-fi in Ultraman
That's even less mecha than Kamen Rider anon.
Also, not only the old riders are cyborgs but many of the newer ones use power armor.
/krg/ is shit though, but that has nothing to do with whether it belongs or not on /m/.
>>14351298
Except I'm not because I have a valid point. Just because some retarded troll has shit opinions on everything doesn't mean that you can throw my argument away.
>>14351317
> I have a valid point.
You really dont.
>>14351305
I actually feel like 11 onward is roughly the point at which Ghost changes from bad to good. It's a lot like Blade in that the first arc is considered really weak, but after that it starts getting more ongoing plot and just markedly improves in quality overall.
>>14351310
Yeah. Kabuto was definitely power armor. Really you could probably argue that only a minority of Riders aren't cyborgs or power armored, though I'll admit I haven't been keeping up with the latest series.
>>14351310
Perhaps, not valid, fair enough.
>>14351321
>no mechanical parts
>no sci-fi aspects
>therefore it shouldn't be on /m/
Wow that was hard, can you refute me?
>>14351337
Kamen Rider has both mechanical parts and sci-fi aspects.
>>14351346
Really? Could I see an example from the currently airing show?
>>14351352
The current one doesnt, but the previous one had power armor, a transforming car and was about fighting AIs.
>>14351331
>Really you could probably argue that only a minority of Riders aren't cyborgs or power armored
Incorrect. I went through and did a list of each Rider's power source one time and only 1/3 of them ended up being power armor/cyborgs/general tech.
>>14351371
Really? What was the methodology? You accounted for Showa riders too, I assume.
>>14351367
So the last one can be discussed, this one shouldn't be. It can go to /tv/ or /jp/ or something.
>>14351381
>It can go to /tv/ or /jp/ or something.
How about YOU go to /tv/ or /jp/ or something shitface.
Toku is /m/. Deal with it.
>>14351371
Kuuga has no power armor Riders
Agito has 1/3 in the form of G3
Ryuki has none
Faiz has 3/3
Blade has 3/4, Chalice is kind of different
Hibiki has none
Kabuto has 7/7
Den-O has 2/2, at least sort of - the belts seem technological but they're fueled by a kind of magic
Kiva has 1/4
Decade has 2/3 counting Kivala
W has 0/2
OOO has 1/2
Fourze has 2/2
Wizard has none
Gaim has 10/10
Drive has 3/3
Ghost has 3/3 after the reveal that Eyecons are nanomachines
>>14351393
>OOO has 1/2
Wouldn't that be 2/3, or are you counting Proto-Birth and Birth as the same thing?
>>14351387
So, you have nothing. That's my opinion and plenty of others share it. If you had your way /m/ would be ten times the containment board it already is.
>>14351402
I was, yeah, otherwise it's 2/3.
>>14351393
>Ryuki has none
All Ryuki riders wear power armor.
>W has 0/2
I don't even.
>>14351381
Splitting a franchise into different boards because of what content it has or doesn't sounds like a tricky thing to do, and some some might argue too much effort (or don't give a shit) to do and send it back to /m/ regardless.
>>14351381
>This specific instance isnt so the entire franchise shouldnt be discussed.
Ok, we shouldnt have GBF threads since gunpla arent actual mechs.
>>14348773
I like superheroes.
Generally speaking Kamen Rider is a very optimistic idea, the original premise of a man becoming a monster but deciding to fight for good strikes a chord with people. There are so many variations of and deviations from that, but it still manages to work and provide that fix of costumed heroes fighting for justice, sometimes with pretty likable supporting casts too.
>>14348865
W killed me too. I watched every KR upto Decade and after that I guess I got burnt out on all the unmanly pussyboi heroes and noplot nohumor
>>14348773
>The fight choreography is terrible.
Compared to what, exactly?
I mean, it's not the Raid, but what on TV is?
Compared to the fights on say... Arrow? I'll take a fight on Rider any day
>>14351393
>Gaim has 10/10
TV show has 14 riders, 12 if you want to join the Zangetsu and Ryugens since you arent accounting for different rider denominations.
Also, W riders use technology so they count.
>>14351402
He's joining similar rider suits, if not there's a lot of mistakes there.
>>14351477
>unmanly
There's more than one way to be manly anon.
>>14351477
how the hell did w break you instead of kiva if pussybois and nonplot are your problems
>>14351409
see
>>14351393
>>14351425
Like I said, shithead. Deal with it.
>>14351409
>plenty of others share it.
Are there really that many retards on /m/ that don't know how to hide threads?
>I don't like a thing, so no one else can post about it
Just lol
>>14348773
I only watch old shit, and only because I have nostalgia (lots of toku aired where I grew up). Rewatching them makes me feel good and forget about adulthood problems
I can't watch newer shit without cringe though
>>14348773
Why do you watch Gundam?
Because you like the good ones and you foolishly hold out hope for a return to form. Gundampoofs and Riderpoofs alike are beaten housewives, myself included.
>Some random ep of W broke me:
An episode of the best Rider show in the high-toyetic era broke you? Shit taste m8. Was it the Heaven's Tornado one? I'll admit that was kind of shit. But it was a turd in a pile of diamonds.
>>14351211
>>The fight choreography is terrible.
>nope
Is this 'nope' a blanket statement? Because you can't cherrypick in this instance. The overall state of Kamen Rider fight choreography is what is in question here, not the peak of it. Still say thee nay?
>>14351425
I actually forgot the Memories did that. As for Ryuki, I've never watched it so I erred on the side of it not being power armor. That makes only two seasons that didn't have any power armor, then, Hibiki and Wizard.
>>14348773
Because I think it's a genuinly fantastic series.
It's kinda going through a lump right now with drive and ghost. (Which I thought were kinda mediocre.) But it had shows that left strong impressions on me.
I fucking loved Blade, Ryuki and Den-O. They really got me emotionally invested in the shows despite shit cgi here and there and some weak story. The characters just did so much.Blades ending literally made me cry for a fucking hour.
Anyways to answer some of your questions;
Yeah I like seeing the designs they come up with for the monsters and toys and whatnot, even if I don't like the design itself I always enjoy anticipating it. I'd say phase 1 Heisei has the best writing out of the series but Phase 2 is also pretty fun. (Kiva, Wizard Ghost and maybe Drive would be exceptions to this though, they range from shit to meh.)
The rider formula is good but it can get tiring sometimes.
I'd say the main focus of kamen rider outside of BUY THE TOYS is character development and attachment. You watch a season to see characters grow and change, not for the over-arching story although they can be decent too.
either way it's fantastic shit.
>>14351830
>As for Ryuki, I've never watched it so I erred on the side of it not being power armor.
You were correct, Ryuki's riders are pure 'magic I ain't gotta explain shit'.
>>14351310
>It does new shit unlike Ultraman.
If by new shit, you just mean trying every dumb motif under the sun so that now it's basically unrecognizable.
>>14351425
This clearly shows their dodies themselves have been significantly altered. Accel has a tire inside him. How the hell can you consider this power armour? It literally transforms them into robots.
>>14351847
>power armor/cyborgs/general tech
>>14351840
>m-muh legacy!!
>>14351820
Is as much as an argument as "the fight choreography is terrible"
>>14352488
>m-muh legacy
Whatever.
>>14348865
>>14348872
>>14348949
>smoking weed
Faggots.
>>14351797
>poofs
Are you British and/or old? Those seem to be the two types of people have heard who tend to use that.
>>14351797
The Puppeteer Dopant episodes were pretty shit too, to be honest.
OP needs some Cool Guy in his life
>>14353196
>not smoking weed
>the only legal intoxicant fucks up motor coordination
yea no.
>>14353286
>intoxicating yourself
Yeah no
>>14353287
>"I must be in control at all times"
pfft
>>14353287
>being this invested in what other people do
Isn't there some Christian brain-washing event you should be attending?
>>14348773
>I'm genuinely curious, not trying to talk shit.
mate
As someone who watched a shitload of Toku in a past few years, I say that Tokusatsu as genre in whole is worth watching for the characters.
Toku with great characters easily overshadow all problems which OP listed.
I still remember the last episodes of Kamen Rider Ryuki (not my favourite one) and (holy shit) Asakura's final duel with Zolda ended with one of the most emotional finales for the characters I've ever seen.
Damn, that stuff was good.
Anyway, Toku is good when characters are good and plot is at least decent.
And almost every time this isn't a case, the respective series is pretty much insufferable.
That's why character-heavy Gaim felt like a second coming after bunch of boring, soulless toy-commercials.
Of course, when fighting choreography is above average for Toku, it's a nice bonus, but it can hardly save a boring show.
>>14353384
>people who don't intoxicate themselves are brainwashed christians
*tips fedora*
Now, kill yourself, pothead
Wait, you're already doing that by consuming your precious drugs
Still, you should choose a faster method, like shooting yourself or something
>>14354094
>brainwashed xtian detected
Quick, call your congressman and tell him/her that the devil's lettuce is ruining our country and you want to make america great again, praise jesus!
>>14348773
I like how absolutely bizarre it is. How can you not fall in love with a show about a wannabe-noir-detective and his crossdressing magic librarian buddy who fuse together into a scarf-wearing karate bug person to beat the shit out of dudes who plug USBs into their necks and turn into rubber dinosaurs? It's fucking art.
>>14354425
I think the most bizarre thing about Double (and a majority of Rider) is how everything has to tie to the specific type of plot device regardless of how unfitting it looks. The series only had like two things that weren't completely powered by Gaia Memories, and one of them was only revealed to be that way later on. It's definitely nothing compared to say, '66 Ultraman where some episodes come across as nonsensical even in the context of the show.
>>14348773
KR's usually about good people fighting the good fight in a world full of (keyword:) people gone bad. It feels far more personal than sentai which I like. I enjoy a lot of the recurring themes as well like taking the powers of evil and turning them into a force of good (sometimes at a cost to the protagonist). Lastly, I appreciated the heart that went into each series such that there felt like there was a lot under the toy shilling for older fans to enjoy as well. (Sadly thats certainly not the case with Ghost and it really shows.)
>>14354356
just let me toke up a mind-altering substance because life is too hard to live in my right mind and I'm too pathetic to do anything constructive!! fuck off xtians go call trump and tell him to build wall for devil!! lol
>>14348773
I grew up on tv. I was basically raised by it. Essentially, I love my fucking tv. I'll literally watch anything. Mostly I think I love it for the special effects and fight choreography. I love Bruce Lee and Jackie Chan. Most of my favourite movies are special effects extravaganzas; Jurassic Park, LOTR, Little Shop of Horrors, Sorcerer.I didn't get into toku until recently, but basically what sort of happened was my friends and I were getting together for bad movie nights. I bought the original Ultraman dvds and ended up wathcing them by myself, mostly as a background thing, then for irony, then to see hilarious shit happen, then for the special effects. It sort of evolved over time into an appreciation for the love and effort that goes into these projects. It's one of those 'so bad it's good' kind of things for me, but I genuinely love Kamen Rider now. I love the justice. I love the characters. I love the sweat and blood that goes into the stunts, writing, special effects and costumes.
It's fun. That's all there is to it. There's nothing deep about it other than my appreciation for the work that gets put in.
>>14351329
Pretty much this. They spent the first 10 eps cranking out monster of the weeks for the next power up toy to fight them. Once the story gets going I thought it was super enjoyable. A lot more so than a bunch of the other heisei stuff we've gotten.
>>14355162
"Heart" is, i think, a cool thing about toku in general, including ghost.
I always feel they're trying to do their best to do a good show, aside from how it turns out to be.
>>14348773
I enjoy it for the suits, the fights, the stories(Even if they are hit or miss), and especially the characters and their actors. Yes, you occasionally come across a Wizard, Ghost, Kiva, or Ninninger but it's few and far between and for the most part you get some really fun shows to watch. Even then those series I listed all have their own good moments as well, they're just not as good as the usual fare.
Fights are always a joy and even if you have to deal with the dated CG the physical aspects are still very impressive and to this day I still have to do a double take and remind myself that things like giant and mech fights are just two normal people and they didn't actually rent out an area for giants in the remote wilderness of Japan to film, it's so convincing.
The jokes can be hit or miss but occasionally you have some good ones like Koyomi's rice ordeal in Wizard, you have Otoya being a goof at nearly every turn during the entire show, you have Shinji, Ren, and Kitaoka's wacky adventures, and so on.
The best are the actors though, especially ones who love(d) their time on the set despite whatever hardships they had on it. They always have fun little pictures to show people and their stories are great to listen to.
Yeah, they occasionally have some groany-worthy moments and the CG is more often than not pretty terrible, but the shows end up being an enjoyable thing to watch even if they have shortcomings or not.
>>14353905
I agree with you for the most part, but I don't think Fourze is souless at all.
Alright look, I'm gonna put it down straight for you friend. God only knows I;m gonna flak for saying this.
The Kamen Rider shows, Sentai, and most other tokusatsu share a significant amount of similarities with something we here in the States found enjoyable. The costumes, cheesy acting, cheesier writing, choreographed fights, the gimmicks... its a lot like pro-wrestling.
Just think about it: The big build-up to introducing new characters, the fan pandering bringing back old ones, weak characters suddenly becoming stronger, strong characters getting jobbed by new guys to build up the new guy's appeal, I could go on.
That's the way I view it, that's the way I justify why I keep watching. Its just a nice way to turn my brain off to my otherwise dim life and a bleak world. What better way than to bombard it with explosions, pretty lights, colorful costumes, and evil being vanquished by unrealistic and illogical means.
The toys? Back then, the toys were prevalent sure, gotta sell that merch. But they became more and more the focal points for each show, because well,"Ishinimori's dead now! Time to milk the cow." -Toei
But what really turned me onto the franchise as a whole was the music. I dunno, something about kicking ass with awesome tunes in the background is enough to hook me to anything.
