What are some good books on toxic masculinity?
Read My Twisted World.
Laugh at how /r9k/ and related sites fuck up young men's lives.
Try not to be one of them.
not a book but Neon Genesis Evangelion is one of the greatest
>>7999390
>toxic masculinity
nice spook
No More Mr Nice Guy- Robert Glover
HL Mencken - In Defense of Women
Taken into custody - Stephen Baskerville
>>7999396
Seriously, if people are reading this, however angry you may feel at the world and yourself, please protect your own mental health and avoid the following communities:
- /r9k/, /pol/
- /r/theredpill
- sluthate, lookism
"toxic" masculinity
>>7999561
Seconding. Don't give in to the bittersweet feeling of being acccepted a resonance chamber will give you, keep challenging your opinion. Evolve, be human, keep looking for the truth/a way out. /r9k/ is surrendering, tantamount to suicide.
>>7999390
"Toxic" masculinity. I hear this used to talk about men being driven to succeed in the workplace, or desiring sexual satisfaction even though they're not super hot.
Dragon Ball Z
>>7999601
Not really, it's more about males who don't want/feel like having to live like the hypertrophic male stereotype (Chad, I imagine, could be a decent portmanteau) while not wanting to. I'd argue it's something that affects many people negatively.
>>7999396
>Laugh at how /r9k/ and related sites fuck up young men's lives.
You actually think that /r9k/ is the cause and not the symptom?
And people told me /lit/ was smart.
>>7999390
The gender wars dynamic of the 2010's has luckily enough not spawned much serious academia, mainly because it is being fought by incredibly stupid people who are twitter/tumblr/reddit/4chan addicts, not academics. If you find yourself literally getting angry about the proliferation of these ideas, and are not in a college class run by a post-structuralist, I would recommend pressing the x button at the top right.
There has however been some pretty laughable third wave feminist academia on the matter, exposed here: https://twitter.com/real_peerreview
As far as I'm concerned, toxic masculinity=red neck abusers and white collar types who dont hire women for management positions, not what you are talking about.
>>7999653
You actually don't realize that it is self-perpetuating cycle where both things are part cause and part effect?
And how the fuck could you think /lit/ is smart? How long have you been here?
>>7999634
To be honest, it feels good to play sports, shoot guns, chase pussy for fun and do over-the-top shit with your friends. I think people talking shit about it just don't understand.
>>7999671
That Twitter account is a god damn goldmine of lulz.
>>7999681
Yes, it does - I just think it's hrmful when you think about this way of life as something that you shluld by anny means do, a stereotype towards which you should always confront yourself. My point is, any of us should just be able to do whatever the fuck we feel like without these cultural images we feel to need to confront with.
The poorius incident of the poo in the night time
>>7999696
What you just said makes more sense than a "toxic masculinity" label though. Even within the US, different regions have distinctly different models of what is masculine, and trying to hammer everyone into that mold isn't healthy in any case.
Like, I know guys who are just gay as hell but grew up in rural Alabama, and guys who are outcasts from their liberal Long Island Jewish families for being super into football because to them a real man is into intellectual stuff and would never upset his mother with an activity where he could get hurt.
>>7999693
Pic related
>>7999677
I think the self perpetuating cycle is the interplay between tumblr, /pol/, /r9k/, r/redpill, and the vast twitter world that unfortunately many formerly reasonable journalists are starting to tap into for page clicks.
Its creeping into real life. I actually had one of my cousins call another of my cousins (one who isnt an internet type) a "shitlord" and a "fuccboi"
None. Masculinity is not toxic.
>>7999601
Not really. It refers to the anti-social aspects of masculinity which hurt men. The unmanliness of needing help is a great example, as the need to be tough is actually killing many men.
Why do I see so many people blaming 'toxic masculinity' for today's problems when it seems that your average (western) male is less traditionally masculine than ever? Like if we were diagnosing the problems of the 1950s, citing the hyper masculine values would seem quite valid, but you're telling me a WoW-playing, basement-dwelling, virgin autist like Elliot Rodger is emblematic of some form of masculinity? I don't get it, am I misunderstanding something here?
>>7999671
Do you like Fight Club a lot, didn't you?
>>7999732
Do you not know how to form a sentence or know a statement, don't you when?
Can someone point me to books that talk about what it means to be a male?
It's embarrassing that I have to read about it.
>>7999733
Le irony is le killing le me
>>7999709
>o'malley
>>7999739
Poo by Pooer McPoo is good.
>>7999739what makes it more interesting is that he is a gay activist that feels that feminizing the gay movement has completely ruined a good thing
>>7999709
>I actually had one of my cousins call another of my cousins (one who isnt an internet type) a "shitlord" and a "fuccboi"
>Mfw living in spicland has kept me from these things due to language barriers.
At least for the moment--my eight year old nephew curses in English. Don't know whether to laugh or cry, honestly.
>>7999739
Knausgård has occasional reflections on modern masculinity in My Struggle.
>>7999739
I always thought Hemingway did a good job. Junger as well. Hollebecque when he isnt showing off his knowledge about some obscure work.
>>7999722
do you think that the Elliot Rodger-type makes up a large enough portion of today's society to cite it as the definition of modern masculinity?
>>7999773
>Looks good, is it good?
I think it was well done, but may not apply to NEET types, as its primary thesis is that men thrive in tribal groups, teams, military companies, competitive bodies, and begin to die off in their basement or in a closed marriage situation.
>>7999753
This book is beyond horse shit
>>7999780
No, he is an absolute outlier. Look at his bodybuilding.com posts. Its the people responding to him that are the vast majority.
And they arent all chads.
>>7999722
It's just a scapegoat for the feminist movement.
If anything there are a lot of things women can improve on by adopting """toxic""" masculinity. I fought dozens of kids as a young teen because they were bullying me over my race. Most of my best friends are people i fought in the past, and I've known them all for over almost 15 years.
When i see kids getting buttfrustrated over mundane shit like microaggressions and having panic attacks over nothing, i think a little bit of toxic masculinity would have been very productive in their upbringing.
>>7999753
>look it up
>recommended by rooshv
really?
>>7999753
And he's right. If you look at how gay men act, it's like a woman with a cock: all of the promiscuity and all of the resentment.
>>7999782
Does that thesis completely ignore craftsmanship and scholarship, y'know the things that were reserved for men for the last couple thousand years? I mean, sure military force was a big deal, but a big deal about heroism was that the man in question functioned on his own.
>>7999793
>look him up
>PUA
doesnt mean anything, and >>7999784 may be right. It didnt change my life but its def an attempt to properly describe/address "what is masculinity" (fuck the idea of toxicity in masculinity, post structuralism still hasnt had any great thinkers, just a bunch of assholes suffering from sour grapes)
>>7999807
>Does that thesis completely ignore craftsmanship and scholarship
He considers the ranking of men within tribalistic groups based on 4 key elements: courage, honor, strength, and mastery, which includes martial, artistic, and scholarly mastery
>>7999390
I can't read the shit on the read image. The person who made this needs to learn contrast, along with how not to draw like shit.
>>7999784
What makes you say that?
>>7999782
To be a NEET is completely opposite of masculinity anyway, so sounds about right. I know that much; men are suppose to be going for something.
>>7999777
>Junger
Looks interesting but is it work on war mainly? I don't think that's what masculinity is.
>Hemingway
I only read Old Man and the Sea. What books would you recommend?
>Hollebecque
Looks interesting. Thanks.
>>7999693
ha
>>7999817
left image*
>>7999818
>Looks interesting but is it work on war mainly? I don't think that's what masculinity is.
Storm of Steel is about war, but the brotherhood aspect.
Eumswil and Marble Cliffs are most certainly not. He is a very prolific author
>Hemingway
The Sun Also Rises and For Whom the Bell Tolls
>Hollebecque
The possibility of an Island and Submission are all about modern masculinity and how empty it is.
Everything Mishima has ever written
>>7999828
This, Sun and Steel esp is about finding the ultimate in masculine expression
>>7999822
>What kind of academia do you want?
>>7999826
>Hemingway
I think he was gay and/or had a micropenis
>>7999837
>micropenis
Average is like 4 inches erect anyways, way overblown.
>>7999837
lol retard. he wasn't gay and he had ED.
>>7999814
>based on 4 key elements: courage, honor, strength, and mastery
Interesting. I'd divide honor between stength and mastery (or rather discipline) though, if we're getting axiomatic.
That wasn't exactly my point however, but rather that men who are heroic are outside of the group, they're incomparable and unique, closer to a force of nature than a man. Does he address that kind of thing?
>>7999693
>>7999826
>the brotherhood aspect
will it teach me how to into brotherhood? I never had much of it when I was younger. I was a fuck up when I was younger.
>>7999828
>Mishima
I've been meaning to get into him more, but forgot/wasn't sure where to go after The Sailor who Fell from Grace into the Sea. Was enjoyable though, yet confusing. If you read it, does marriage really mean the death of a man? Or am I interpreting it wrong?
>>7999844
it's basically a fanfiction of the homosexual lifestyle, don't read much into it
>>7999872
Fanfiction can be interesting though.
>>7999780
He's definitely an extreme case, but I think modern men leans closer towards that extreme than they have in preceding decades. Also, blaming his actions on 'toxic masculinity' strikes me as nonsensical, since his temperament seems to me as inimical to traditional masculinity.
>>7999866
>am I interpreting it wrong
Yes. The sailor was the boys masculine dream. It was traditional, militaristic, daring. The boy loved the sailor. He loved him so much he brought the sailor to his mothers attention.
His mother made him quit being a sailor, and start working in her store selling women's clothes, WESTERN women's clothes. And when the boy was caught spying on them making love, and was not punished, he and his friends sentenced the sailor to death for being feminized, subjugated by the feminine, subjugated by western influence, and for losing the discipline of masculinity. Its as much about post-war Japan as about masculinity.
Lets remember that Mishima WAS Eliot Rodger tier nuts tho.
>>7999893
Lesson: Asian men are insane.
What in the hell is toxic masculinity?
>>7999893
>The sailor was the boys masculine dream
>boys
since it was the boys dream, is it to be discredited?
How can one go into marriage without being subjugated by the feminine?
I guess one would have the female be absorbed into their world instead. But it's a bit tragic since the sailor had no basis within land to absorb her.
Mishima was nuts because he lost what he admired in his society I suppose
>you'll never commit seppuku for ideals
Reported for misandry.
>>7999902
The most socially acceptable way to scream "RRREEEEEE NORMIES OUT" in public and academic circles.
>>7999920
I kek'd and it's true
>>7999912
I just have a hard time with everything because, as if the feminine wasn't confusing enough, I really don't know what masculinity is beyond vague actions and manners. And of course we shouldn't base ourselves in what we read, but I would like to have something to question. There isn't anything to question. Education and my upraising have me so disconnected as to what a male is.
I want out of the cycle of influence, but I don't know where to begin.
Where are all the women on /lit/ lately coming from? I'm not one of those who care in the context of this board, but the goodreads thread had like 8 female profiles, and this thread obviously has 2-3 women in it. Was the board linked somewhere?
There is a lot of straw-manning going on here.
Toxic masculinity usually refers to having to be unemotional to the point of repression, or solving problems with aggression and violence. Basically the impossibility of showing any weakness for fear of being picked on or called "gay"
It has nothing to do with traditionally manly pastimes like sport or eating a big steak or whatever.
>>7999926
Masculinity is not being a pussy. Masculinity is not fucking overthinking what masculinity is.
Lost a leg? Own your fucking wheelchair and don't let it stop you one bit from doing what you like/want/have-to-in-order-to-provide.
Blind?
Deaf?
Who gives a fuck. Disability is a feminine concept.
Fuck you,
Either live your life or kill yourself right now.
>>7999575
what's wrong with r9k. I thought it was original and shit
>>7999930
I'm far from a twink, but I'd have to argue that toxic ideas of masculinity do contribute to people eating shitty diets because "hurr durr that health food is for women and gays."
>>7999938
The great Pepe explosion was a high point for /r9k/. Fresh Pepes, tendies stories and such every hour for a month or so. It's pretty shit right now.
>>7999935
>What is masculinity
>lost a leg
I always thought of Masculinity as being embodied by the captain and mates and harpooners on the Pequod, with all their flaws and virtues.
>>7999935
>Masculinity is not being a pussy
>Masculinity is not fucking overthinking what masculinity is.
again, that's very vague. Of course overthinking isn't helping me either, but I have no compass on how to act. I just need to question my actions more, I suppose. I know I do things wrong, I just don't know what. Although I know a base, and that's enough.
I think it's just a desire to have one concrete definition in things, since schooling has us that way.
>in-order-to-provide
I have a hard time finding any women I want to provide for.
>>7999949
>Moby-Dick
One of the books that was about masculinity, and it was beautiful. The funniest thing is that they just are, nothing more.
>>7999953
Ever heard of the theory that some ideas are infestations?
>>7999561
>lookism
Is far more common among women than men
>>7999960
>I have no compass on how to act. I just need to question my actions more,
no, [in order to be masculine] you need to make decisions and own up to whatever goes wrong as your own responsibility.
And I'd say that when this attitude grows to an unhealthy level, that's where you'd unironically start using the term 'toxic masculinity'
>>7999961
That's the premise of lookism.net, correct.
Women are awful
>>8000000
Supreme
>>8000000
>>8000000
>>8000000
BOASTING IN EPIC BREAD
>>8000000
we could have done better
>>8000000
>>8000000
WOMEN ON SUICIDE WATCH
>>8000000
(not true by the way)
>>8000000
WEW LAD
>>8000000
thanks for ruining the thread
>>8000000
>Drop the zeroes inside my perimeter.
>Yes, all of them.
>>8000024
>I want to start making the right decisions
Well that's just being a wise person, not being masculine.
A much better thing to aspire to, though, than just raw masculinity, in my opinion. Wisdom you can never get enough of, whereas masculinity you really can overdo.
>>8000031
>"toxic masculinity" in OP
>not ruined from the get go
You're just a butthurt hag.
>>8000000
>>8000000
>>8000043
kys
>>8000039
Don't you think masculinity extends beyond accepting what is reality?
How about treating others? Leading yourself?
Beliefs?
Or does this become irrelevant?
>>8000000
good digits, but I don't see how this is a /lit/ post. The shakespeare get was better.
>>8000000
>>8000000
Interestingly enough, this poster is actually 100% correct.
>>8000023
>>8000027
>>8000031
>>8000054
time to leave /lit/ you fucking plebs
>>8000054
>>8000048
>>8000031
>>8000027
>>8000023
>>8000062
Sorry for invading your safe space
>>8000067
Nice try, but I'm clearly not the one who's upset.
No pussy for you tonight.
>>7999561
THIS.
THISSSSS.
>>7999561
r/deadbedrooms
http://thisisthinprivilege.org/
most depressing places on the internet
>>8000051
Well, not necessarily accepting reality in a defeatist way, but still accepting reality as it is, in order to be able to make any real difference.
Take for example the P.C. movement -- It's the absolute opposite of masculinity, and it also seems to be the absolute opposite of accepting reality.
Treating people like a gentleman is a similar concept to masculinity, but I don't think they're completely the same.
And no, I'm not sure we could say that beliefs maybe become more and more irrelevant the farther on the spectrum you go towards pure masculinity.
That also sounds more like machiavellism, and that's a different thing.
>>8000066
you are conforming to social norms. Just someone else's social norms.
>>8000000
CHECKED
>>8000092
>who else /moderngentleman/ here
>I love distorted popcultural distortions of bourgeoisie social norms
>>8000092
Would you say masculinity boils down to logical action? - where does emotion fit in?
Do you have any books you want to recommend?
>>8000118
>Would you say masculinity boils down to logical action? - where does emotion fit in?
American humanities scholar Camille Paglia writes about the Apollonian and Dionysian in her 1990 bestseller Sexual Personae.[7] The broad outline of her concept is borrowed from Nietzsche, an admitted influence, although Paglia's ideas diverge significantly.
The Apollonian and Dionysian concepts comprise a dichotomy that serves as the basis of Paglia's theory of art and culture. For Paglia, the Apollonian is light and structured while the Dionysian is dark and chthonic (she prefers Chthonic to Dionysian throughout the book, arguing that the latter concept has become all but synonymous with hedonism and is inadequate for her purposes, declaring that "the Dionysian is no picnic."). The Chthonic is associated with females, wild/chaotic nature, and unconstrained sex/procreation. In contrast, the Apollonian is associated with males, clarity, celibacy and/or homosexuality, rationality/reason, and solidity, along with the goal of oriented progress: "Everything great in western civilization comes from struggle against our origins."[8]
She argues that there is a biological basis to the Apollonian/Dionysian dichotomy, writing: "The quarrel between Apollo and Dionysus is the quarrel between the higher cortex and the older limbic and reptilian brains."[9] Moreover, Paglia attributes all the progress of human civilization to masculinity revolting against the Chthonic forces of nature, and turning instead to the Apollonian trait of ordered creation. The Dionysian is a force of chaos and destruction, which is the overpowering and alluring chaotic state of wild nature. Rejection of – or combat with – Chthonianism by socially constructed Apollonian virtues accounts for the historical dominance of men (including asexual and homosexual men; and childless and/or lesbian-leaning women) in science, literature, arts, technology and politics. As an example, Paglia states: "The male orientation of classical Athens was inseparable from its genius. Athens became great not despite but because of its misogyny."[10]
>>8000000
AAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAA
>>8000118
Sex and Character argues that all people are composed of a mixture of male and the female substance, and attempts to support his view scientifically. The male aspect is active, productive, conscious and moral/logical, while the female aspect is passive, unproductive, unconscious and amoral/alogical.[4] Weininger argues that emancipation is only possible for the "masculine woman", e.g. some lesbians, and that the female life is consumed with the sexual function: both with the act, as a prostitute, and the product, as a mother.[5] Woman is a "matchmaker". By contrast, the duty of the male, or the masculine aspect of personality, is to strive to become a genius, and to forgo sexuality for an abstract love of the absolute, God, which he finds within himself.[6]
A significant part of his book is about the nature of genius. Weininger argues that there is no such thing as a person who has a genius for, say, mathematics, or music, but there is only the universal genius, in whom everything exists and makes sense. He reasons that such genius is probably present in all people to some degree.[7]
>>8000000
Kekd n checkd
>>8000121
Bretty good bro
>>8000118
It definitely boils down to logical action.
I don't know for sure to tell you where emotions fit in, but they're definitely not to be surpressed -- that shit leads to nervous breakdowns you'll never recover from, and also unhealthier emotions in general.
Also, I don't really have any books, I'm pretty much talking about what I personally do, and what I've picked up when watching people I considered masculine.
But it's really REALLY something to be balanced out with femininity (maybe that's where emotions fit in) if you want to survive in the long run . Otherwise it can really become toxic masculinity.
>all these liberal faggots
Kill yourselves.
>>8000000
MEME MAGIC CONFIRMED
KEK WILLS IT
>>8000000
>>8000141
Strongly recommend this for a view in human gender interaction in a totally alien culture
>>8000075
Ehh I do to, but honestly it should clear up in late May when all the unifags finish their finals.
Just give it two weeks or so and everything will return to normal.
>>8000147
fuckin liberals
>>8000000
>8000000
>>8000126
>to strive to become a genius, and to forgo sexuality for an abstract love of the absolute, God, which he finds within himself
What of making a family, and finding love within women? True masculinity lies in leaving that, instead of wishing for it. For as soon you wish, you revoke your masculinity. That makes sense.
Thanks for the information. I forgot about the Apollo vs Dionysian contrast when I read Narcissus and Goldmund and I think that's a core problem, but it makes sense to still side toward Apollo. Thanks.
>>8000141
>they're definitely not to be suppressed
They're supposed to be dealt with through investment of activities. Often you hear music making as 'an emotional outlet' and it makes sense. I'm just having a hard time becoming emotionally invested in my goals that I set. Any thoughts? Do you have trouble investing as well?
>>8000153
This is something I'll check. It seems we've revoked balance for progress in domestic affairs, if I were ever to deal with women again. It's better for them to come to you, but to really put them in the back burner.
I guess this promotion of women I've been giving was through Romantic influences, or not investing emotionally enough in goals, which I still don't know why.
Does anyone have a hard time deriving satisfaction from things that they do achievement wise?
Maybe I haven't achieved much yet. That makes sense.
>one of the biggest spooks in history
Why is masculinity toxic?
I thought historians made it clear there was no such thing as a utopic matriarchy for most of human existence?
>>8000191
haha dick is a spook, I can literally get FUCKED IN THE ASS, and i'm still not a faggot haha, social construct haha
>>8000141
I don't think masculinity boils down to logical thinking at all. Take guys like Russell Brand and (albeit fictional) Hank Moody. They tend to talk utter shit and they are both rather masculine. At least masculine enough to be desired a lot by women
>>8000195
Masculinity is toxic in the case of Montressor or Ahab, where honor and aggression shatter social norms and drive the man towards perdition.
In the modern sense, masculinity is toxic when masculine urge drives men to dominate the feminine, or rather, when the feminine fears masculine strength and calls it toxic because it is an oppressive factor (see the hand-wringing over the non-existent rape culture and epidemic)
>>8000201
*logical action
>>8000180
>Do you have trouble investing as well?
I have a completely opposite problem, though I'm not sure that it has to do with my self-perceived masculinity
>>8000201
>talk utter shit
>TALK
> T A L K
>therefore it means they don't make logical actions
like literally you're overdue for your pedicure manlet
>>8000203
On the contrary, I'd say that masculinity is toxic when the masculine fears the feminine's fragility
>>8000212
>talking isn't action
Their talking is 90% of what their action is around women you muppet
>>8000226
I would say that is a total loss of masculinity, that is, subjugating oneself to the feminine
>>8000000
Absolutely perfect
>>8000000
My cock is hard
>>8000200
But it is a social construct. Gender is all a state of mind, a "spook", if you will. One can BE female but still have male organs. What is on the inside is what counts.
I sure hope you are joking, but even then, this is not something to joke about. I also ask you to refrain from using terms Like F**ked in the a*s." you are creating an atmosphere of toxic masculinity.
>>8000000
REMOVE THIS YOU MISOGYNISTIC PIECE OF TRASH
>>7999390
https://play.google.com/store/books/details?id=d-EWCgAAQBAJ&source=productsearch&utm_source=HA_Desktop_US&utm_medium=SEM&utm_campaign=PLA&pcampaignid=MKTAD0930BO1&gl=US&gclid=CIPM9rPVwcwCFVQ5Mgodn_oLJg&gclsrc=ds
Try"Does God Make the Man." It gives a really crisp analysis of systematic oppression and patriarchal toxicity. It also exposes some of the toxicity in major religions. It is one of my favorite reads.
>>8000258
>what is on the inside is what counts
yeah, like estrogen and test, eggs and sperm
>>8000000
>>8000263
>replying to reddit-tier bait
>>8000263
Stop trying to oppress me with this. Psychology tells us that someone can have a brain more similar to the opposite gender. Even so, the soul still matters more and the soul can be any gender.
>>8000000
Beautiful.
>>8000000
>>8000000
>>8000000
Absolutely superlative
>>8000000
Witnessed
>>8000000
>>8000027
Piss of Scaruffi
thread is autosaging, lol
>>7999390
What the fuck are you talking about?
>>8000000
res here
>>8000000
AYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY
>>8000000
>>8000000
brekek kekek kekek
>>8000000
Faggot
>7999999
>>8000000
chekekek'd
>>8000000
checked
>>8000000
Agreed.
>>8000000
Nice
>>8000000
nice
>>8000000
Just wanted to get in my reply
>>8000000
saving epic bread
>>8000000
this is poetry
