at least in 4chan, the l chat and i suposed anonimous messageboards, i'm pretty sure that is a reflection of the thoughs of a lot of "cis lesbians" about trans women, why so much hate??
>>6284375
Cis lesbians hate EVERYONE
>>6284375
cislesgen is just transgirls tho
>>6284375
It's only a 4chan thing, honestly.
I know a good amount of cis lesbians irl and not a single one hates transwomen (why would they anyways)
The thing you see in 4chan is phenomenon where the vast majority of the lesbians posting are either actually not lesbians but gay/straight men that enjoy shitposting and don't usually interact with the real world and shut-in, NEET , with severe mental problems lesbians, that also enjoy shitposting.
All the lesbians I know IRL are cool with transgender women, but not all of them want to have sex with them. It doesn't come from a place of nonacceptance, though. It's more like they're just not into penises. I actually do have some cis lesbian friends who'd be open to sex with transgender girls if they're feminine enough. I mean, everyone has preferences, and that's okay as long as they're not cunts about it.
On the other hand, I've been to lesbian bars here with a friend who's transgender, and people have come up and shouted, "He's a man!" and been really shitty about it. I think it just depends. There are all kinds of lesbians, just like there are all kinds of other people.
As a cis lesbo irl I don't give a damn. I mean I don't wanna fuck you either but I don't give a damn to ban you from whatever or think you deserve violence. But on the internet ya'll trannies are trolls and annoying.
Like damn lesgen and legbutt started out ok with trans whatever but then every thread kept getting turned into being about trans and trans hijacked the lesgen chat. First few months of /lgbt/ was cool but it's just shittier and shittier partly because you can't get 5 posts into any other topic without it being about trans. Literally saw a thread about raising children as a homosexual couple and 2 posts in trans were making it all about how much harder they have it than that homosexual trying to talk about raising a kid. It's always a pissing contest with you on who has it worse.
Idk why it's always lesbians that trans chicks shit on here. Gay men ditched trans longer before and much harsher.
Trannies are riding on our coat tails.
go start your own struggle and stop associating with us.
>>6284375
Because the LGBT community in the end is a bunch of disease ridden fags, man-hating dykes, trendy straight people and gender-dysphoric basket cases who probably hate each other more than straight people and should have never associated with each other.
LGBT was a mistake.
>>6284432
the thing is, is not. cis feminists, lesbians especially, have been violently campaigning against trans women for decades. there are MUCH larger TERF communities on tumblr, to some extent reddit and, yes, in real life than the one cislesgen on this site.
>>6285272
Because dykes hate men and trans-women no matter what will still be men
>>6285248
You forgot to mention the bisexuals. Everyone always forgets us, you fucking whores.
I live in a high lgbt populated city. Lesbians are chill if not friendly to me. I think the whole lesbians hating trans thing is blown out of proportion from the internet, college campuses, and the assumption female TERFs are all lesbians
>>6285323
You're in with the trendy straight people
>>6285327
Straight guys don't fuck guys, you just don't want us in the fucking club, you hateful faggot.
>>6285337
If you bottom then I guess you're a thing, but if you only top you're just a trendy straight
>>6284432
>thinks that if they aren't physically attacking you or harassing you they might like you
>doesn't realize that social graces cause most people from announcing their opinions publicly and to your face
You know there's lots of people who are homophobic but won't say so to your face or assault you. There are a lot of racists that won't make their feelings known to the race they dislike. A lot of lesbians aren't comfortable with you but won't say so to yourself. They'll find another outlet like with their like minded friends and on anonymous Taiwanese interior decorating apps.
>>6285343
>now fucking men is straight.
kek, and i think is "gayer" topping than fucking, i mean.... to top you must to get hard, you must like that men, he must turn on, you must act and fucking him, etc. etc. etc.
toppin is gayer than bottoming, a "truly straight man" cna bottom, but not topping.
As someone who is very transympathetic I think it is absolutely fine for some people who are into women to not to want to sleep with transwomen. Same for FTMs. It is hard to argue that transsexuals are exactly the same as cis-gendered individuals of their new gender.
People ought to be able to look, act and present themselves however they want as long as they're not hurting anyone else, and I think it is common courtesy to treat them in the way they want to be treated, but not everyone has to be willing to date them to be acceptive. I certainly wouldn't mind but I can understand why some might.
>>6284375
>why so many "cis lesbians" hates trans women so much?
Its *not* that they hate trans women, its more a case that many of them simply do not genuinely feel that they are women.
>>6285715
tbqh hating on men for wanting to dress and look like women while embracing some aspects of femininity is not nice and contributes to the gender binary meme.
>>6285696
Not dating transsexuals IS the cotton ceiling.
>>6285721
Feelings at that base level are extremely hard to change. Even if you feel the utmost sympathy and benevolence towards them there will always be tension if you dont view them as women.
>>6285729
I'm the most liberal marxist commie hippie fuckwit imaginable but I'm just not sexually attracted to Koreans and think that they're ugly. Am I racist for not wanting to date Koreans?
>>6285744
of course. all marxist commie fuckwits are racist. that's a core tenant.
>>6285214
yeah like youve ever struggled for your politics a day in your life
>>6285745
You don't know shit about communism if you think the ideology is racist. Communism!=Stalinism. National communism is a twisted internal paradox.
>>6285744
advanced feminist thought: i dont think any individual can be a "racist" because racism is a mode of social organization rather than just a set of personal/collective ideologies
your desire is your own but it can reflect internalized notions of hierarchy - you arent directly to fault for your emotions but it is something you can process and move past if you are honestly dedicated to antiracist praxis
>>6285762
I can both see what you are saying on the one hand and feel deeply uncomfortable with it on the other. It is useful to think of attitudes in the aggregate in order to make sense of them and, say, in the sense of institutional sexism you can't be sexist to a man but on an individual level you can still be bigoted toward a man because of his gender and that's still morally wrong.
I might only think Koreans are ugly due to the standards of beauty I was taught by society - standards which favor Western white people - but it could just be an innate preference, like how some people prefer certain flavors of ice cream. I can't look at myself only through the lens of the collective.
>>6285753
lol all communism is racist. grow up, kid
>>6285777
critical theory is oftentimes uncomfortable
i dont believe essentialized notions (e.g. "this person is a racist" "i am not attracted to koreans") can be learned without being taught, you know? in a casual/conversational sense like sure it makes sense to say that this person is being racist/misogynistic/etc. but if you mean to dissect these topics its more useful to distinguish ideology from individual because ideology is more accurately described as the unit of analysis where individual behavior is just empirical evidence and a manifestation/enactment of a given ideology
but then again i typically think the individual (or Self) as you probably conceive of it exists past a certain degree of abstraction but thats a whole different story
>>6285803
Basically I think you're pushing the cursor a bit too far toward total determinism to explain what happens IRL.
Which in practice is a problem. Like, if you want to not be racist/whathever*ist by considering somebody individually, they have to be something more than a sum of learned ideology. Or, more generally, respecting somebody's decision on whatever means not invalidating it through fundamentally unfalsifiable "you're only doing it because of X social cause", that lead to stupidity. (eg activist from outside a group invalidating members of the group dissenting opinion on their action, because internalization/social determinism/"you don't really think that".)
>>6285982
For the record this is a new person who has chosen to join the conversation.
>>6285715
That's effectively the same as hate.
>>6288206
Not that person but I strongly disagree. There are some convincing arguments to be made about whether "woman" could refer to just gender and not sex. Do not mistake me for a troglodyte though, I think there is no problem with people who choose to adopt gender aspects different from their own sex. I think it is also fine to categorize them as a similar but separate group. Treating them like the sex they present is just polite.
>>6284375
Because they consider them men and hate men.
>>6288224
Trannies change many aspects of their physical sex too. Hormones, particularly taken during puberty, change a lot. Simply calling them men is retarded any way you put it. If someone's gender is female, and their sex is "half female", I don't know how you could call them not women without also calling infertile women, women with PCOS, women with chromosomal abnormalities, etc. "fake women".
>>6288274
I actually agree that just calling them men is inaccurate. They're somewhere in between. The thing is that our society is very unkind to those who do not fit in the gender binary which I think is very unjust and forces us to make a false choice between "woman" and "man". I don't think of them as "fake women" but I don't think of them as standard women either. Different, though not in a bad way.
>>6284375
4chan isn't really representative of real life on anything. On this board, every letter of the acronym hates every other one. L hates T, T hates L back, T and L both hate G and all three hate B, and if you fall under the Q or the + then just forget about it.
>>6288300
>Different, though not in a bad way
Yeah, but it leads to discrimination, which was my original point. Don't sleep with me, whatever, I hate penises too. But when a girl learns about my trans status the way she treats me almost always changes and it hurts.
>tfw friendless forever
>>6284375
Bi MtF here. They can hate me all they want and unless they try to fuck with my healthcare or rights I honestly don't care how much time they spend obsessing about my "feminine penis." I prefer straight guys and bi girls anyway. Less chance of militant 70s-era SCUM manifesto ridiculousness and less lesbier than thou nonsense.
>>6288328
I would have to be an idiot to deny that a lot of people don't mistreat you upon finding out you're a transwoman. That sucks. I was just making a point about how, in some few limited contexts, treating you differently makes sense. I hope I haven't offended you and I wish you luck.
>>6288356
>That accidental double negative
wew turns out I'm an idiot anyhow. Who knew.
>>6284535
>lesgen and legbutt started out ok with trans
>First few months of /lgbt/ was cool but it's just shittier and shittier
lol no, lesgen has always had literally autistic retards like kek who will jump at any mention of trannies and fill a whole thread with shitposting.
All it takes for any troll to ruin lesgen is bottom-tier "y wont u dumb bitches suck my big girl cock?!" bait. Then when the autists take the opportunity to shitpost about how ALL trannies are gross ugly pervert aggressive violent crazy fake-women with big smelly dicks the trolls link it in the tranny threads for them to defend themselves.
Even if no trannies posted in lesgen the trolls still would and instead of just ignoring tranny posts or asking them to please post about tranny stuff in a more appropriate thread the autists will always take the opportunity to shitpost and hate on those they perceive as beneath them.
There was even a troll thread a bit ago that went from one topic to the next and in the midst of it all three separate posters agreed how they love to shitpost about trannies and try to hurt their feelings at every opportunity whenever they see them in lesgen or elsewhere because it's just so funny how pathetic and vulnerable they are.
>>6288365
Gotta say that I'm kind of relieved at seeing how awful they are. I had began to buy into the narrative that men on the internet are uniquely awful and that thread partially restored my faith in egalitarianism.
>>6288356
>I was just making a point about how, in some few limited contexts, treating you differently makes sense.
Not really if it's something benign that's essentially harmless. People typically hate being treated differently from others. I remember when a friend of mine had a bunch of mutual friends find out about her childhood abuse, and they all treated her differently for it. It sucked because she was the same person, but people saw her as a totally different person. Her otherwise healthy life became the subject of armchair psychology and pity. Eventually her friends drifted away because they "felt weird." My other friend has a huge scar from a fire on his back. He got it when he fell in a fire pit when he was a kid. When people see it they treat him differently. All of the joking around stops, all of the happy conversation stops, and everyone treats as if he's some kind of science experiment gone awry. Another friend lost all of her female friends in high school when she came out as a lesbian in a casual conversation at lunch. Half of them stood up and moved to a different table. The other half kept giving her crazy looks and eventually stopped hanging out with her altogether because she was suddenly "weird."
Just because it's knee-jerk human nature to treat someone differently because of an unexpected and otherwise unknowable revelation about them, it doesn't make it automatically right and it doesn't exonerate the person or people from the responsibility for their actions or emotions.
>>6284535
>Idk why it's always lesbians that trans chicks shit on here. Gay men ditched trans longer before and much harsher.
Are you delusional?
Trannies and gay guys shit on each other and post in each other's threads all the time. You dykes are just the only ones with enough of an oversensitive victim complex to think it's all about you and some coordinated malevolent agenda to shit on lesbians specifically.
>>6288477
I get why you feel that way and I'd probably feel the same if I made all of the effort to transition and some people still didn't treat me like a ciswoman. At the same time I can't fault someone for not wanting to date a certain sex. Biology is a lizardbrain thing, you know?
>>6285272
>cis feminists, lesbians especially
LOL, you mean political "lesbians" that only do it as a statement of their hatred of men, the ones who support laws to fuck over actual gay people and trannies.
>>6285323
You're not welcome in lesgen either you disgusting disease-ridden bi-slut!
>>6285323
Bisexuals are the master race tbqh. Objectively the most options. Options are power.
>>6284375
Well there are a lot of people in general that hate trans women. Youtube comments, and news article comments are great places to look if you want to feel sad about how people seem to tragically lack kindness and empathy.
>>6288502
>I get why you feel that way and I'd probably feel the same if I made all of the effort to transition and some people still didn't treat me like a ciswoman.
So you've never been treated differently and/or unfairly for an arbitrary trait in your entire lifetime? You've never had someone deny a base part of who you are because they felt like they could? Is this really a concept that's completely alien to you?
>At the same time I can't fault someone for not wanting to date a certain sex.
It's not so much actively placing fault or pressuring anyone to do anything as it is an examination of a collective belief system. Once upon a time feminists didn't even consider lesbians or minority women on the same level as "normal" women. They considered them lesser, another category. Not "real women" like they were. This pattern persists throughout all of society for all different romanticized paradigms of human variation.
>Biology is a lizardbrain thing, you know?
But we're not lizards, anon. We're human beings with the capacity to know better. Plus, is "biology" really the driving factor when a person's "huge difference" can only be communicated verbally or through official government documentation?
>>6288576
>So you've never been treated differently and/or unfairly for an arbitrary trait in your entire lifetime? You've never had someone deny a base part of who you are because they felt like they could? Is this really a concept that's completely alien to you?
Not at all. I've suffered from racism in the past. At the same time I wouldn't fault a girl for not being attracted to me because she is just not attracted to Russians.
>It's not so much actively placing fault or pressuring anyone to do anything as it is an examination of a collective belief system. Once upon a time feminists didn't even consider lesbians or minority women on the same level as "normal" women. They considered them lesser, another category. Not "real women" like they were. This pattern persists throughout all of society for all different romanticized paradigms of human variation.
Transwomen are definitely not treated right by the majority of people and it is important to consciously consider the reasoning behind our actions. I get the fear that recognizing any difference at all will be exploited by those of ill intent. Hell, that's not just a fear but a reality. It is still not right to deny the truth though. We should be working to change the attitudes of the crowds rather than the facts.
>But we're not lizards, anon. We're human beings with the capacity to know better. Plus, is "biology" really the driving factor when a person's "huge difference" can only be communicated verbally or through official government documentation?
Humans are still animals with base, animalistic urges driving much of their basic emotions. You can strive to act in a certain way and it is even possible to change you attitude about many things but I don't think attraction's one of them. Else things like conversion therapy would be possible.
I don't think it is a "huge difference". It is a rather minuet difference, really. But small things can be really important for some people as far as attraction goes.
>>6288537
I used to be a huge SJW who legit got really sad when I read those angry comments about how transwomen should die or how they aren't really women. I was 100% on board for transwomen rights and for our current society, giving them some special protection because how people in general tend to be violent towards them.
Then I got addicted to 4chan and saw how mtfs act in real time and I lost my sympathy for them. I actually agree with commenters who say mtfs aren't really women. I still think they should be allowed hormones and bodily autonomy, but it's hard to defend them when the only rights they respect refers only to themselves. When it comes to dating or intimate relationships, they can't seem to understand "no means no" and who ever they're courting aren't allowed the same freedom to do with their body ie. refusing to sleep with a trans person seems to be a crime to transwomen.
What makes it even dumber is that there are plenty of queer women/men and bisexual men/women who are more than okay with dating transwomen, but the focus is always on lesbians and straight men.
>>6288274
>If someone's gender is female, and their sex is "half female", I don't know how you could call them not women without also calling infertile women, women with PCOS, women with chromosomal abnormalities, etc. "fake women".
That's the thing, I've never seen any terf or tranny-hater come up with a definition of what a woman is to exclude trans people without also excluding people that they otherwise consider reel womyn.
The closest they can come is being raised as a women with some appeal to a vague "essential female experience" that they can't get specific about and can still exclude infertile women and others. If you look into the history of feminism a major point of contention is the middle-class white experience being considered the only valid one to the alienation and exclusion of women with other experiences.
>>6288837
>>6288837
Mate *everyone* here are jerks of immense proportions. I'm one of the people arguing that it is okay to not to want to sleep with a transwoman all thread long but a lot of the stuff you say is kind of extreme especially if it really does come from you judging the group as a whole based on the behavior of a handful NEETs posting on a Tibetian hieroglyph-sharing website.
As seen in the last few posts ITT one of the big reasons transwomen push against not being classified in exactly the same way is that people immediately use this to label them as "fake women" when in reality they are closer to "different women".
>>6288851
>what is a woman?
they were born with a vagina
>>6288890
you fool what have you done we had a high level discussion and you ruined it now you'll get drowned in 50 pages of information about various forms of hermaphrodites and why this classification makes no sense all is lost
>>6288890
And some cis women simply don't have them. It was a news story several months back when vagina transplant surgery was successfully done for the first time, and those receiving the surgery were women.
>>6288851
you know your argument rests on a real shaky feminist theoretical foundation when you have to invoke essential notions to positively define a category of people
lol, just straight up lol
>>6288942
she had a vulva, a clitoris, a slightly small uterus, and ovaries
>>6288942
>hermaphrodites are intersex folks. They can go either way.
If you accept that folks with some intersex facets are not women then you're in conflict with what that guy wrote since his whole point was that TERFs typically include such people as women because they largely look and function exactly like women.
>>6288952
nigga, that's a cis girl. When I say vagina, I mean the whole shebang. Of course you're going to have the odd girls who have weirdly formed vaginas or odd guys who have weirdly formed dicks, but they still have the genitals.
>>6288979
It is not trivial to place the line between cis women and intersex women e.g. some women just don't have ovaries.
>>6288962
>If you accept that folks with some intersex facets are not women then you're in conflict with what that guy wrote since his whole point was that TERFs typically include such people as women because they largely look and function exactly like women.
not sure who you're talking about, but transwomen who are visibly trans and keep their dicks, i don't consider them to be women. That's just my opinion.
Here's the thing though, we can have endless debate on "transwomen real women?" and such but it really depends on the individual. A lot of transwomen themselves will have very different opinions such as "tru trans" or something like that. For cis people, they'll have their own definitions and classification system to categorize trans people.
At the end of the day, I just want transwomen to respect the cis women who have no interest in them and I would also like cis women to not act so vicious towards them.
Transwomen who constantly pop up going "but muh girltinkler, but muh female brain scans" make me cringe as much as the rabid dog cis women who go "TRAnNNIES REEEEEEEE" ( I hesitate to call them terfs, because they're not feminists at all)
Both of these types of individuals don't help the situation at all.
>>6289035
I think that so long as being a "real" woman is seen as better than being a transwoman and the gender binary keeps pushing people into picking "male" or "female" rather than being acceptive of every point on the spectrum people will keep being defensive about this. As I said before I think it is legitimate to not want to be with someone due to their original sex. The problem is that even admitting that there's a difference is largely untenable in the current climate because the only pro-trans narrative available is one of "actually a woman inside". Admitting this is seen as tantamount to admitting their whole gender is illegitimate.
I think the proper way to approach this is to change society so that there is no implied value judgement to being a man, a woman, or anything in between.
>>6289098
I actually agree with you there.
I'm also surprised how civil this turned out to be.
>>6288979
do you not know what a vagina is
>>6289271
what are you doing
there was a good ending
we were happy
