>>28379618

Sounds like obsessing over minutia to me. Why not have a standard semi-auto in 9mm as the default handgun and another option being a revolver in a much larger caliber.

>>28379618
Damage, magazine size, accuracy (if the system uses it).

Double Action and Single Action only refer to the length of trigger pull, a Double Action makes the trigger pull also cock the hammer while a single action must be cocked before pulling the trigger.
"Semi-Auto" in this case is an incorrect term technically, gained in the 1900s when the first magazine-fed pistols began showing up. To differentiate them from standard Revolvers people called handguns like the 1911 "Automatics"which shifted to "Semi-Automatic" later to further delineate between weapons with continuous fire.
Semi-Automatic does not refer to the type of trigger action.

>>28379746
Really I'm just worried about fire rate. Since, unless you're a cowboy, I assume that with a revolver a single action is gonna be generally slower than a double or semi-auto for revolvers.

Was wondering if the same could be said for pistols? Or if it even mattered. If they're all gonna be the same speed, more or less.

>>28379833
A single action can actually be faster than a double action if you "fan" the hammer, though that's more of a Hollywood thing than in real life.
In all honesty, the difference in fire speed between a double and single action would only be a couple seconds if even that.
Double Actions exist primarily because it's easier to just pull the trigger in a tense situation than it is to remember if your gun is cocked.

I guess I should very much simplify this question:

In the basic terms of just shooting the gun and the speed at which you can shoot the gun, is there any real big differences between the different kinds of actions?

Or should I just go "standard" and "machine pistol" since they otherwise have the same fire rates?

>>28379899
There's no discernable difference. Maybe throw in a speed bonus and accuracy penalty for characters fanning the hammer on a revolver, but otherwise there's no difference that would be relevant on a turn-by-turn basis.

>>28379947
Alright.


Next question:
Submachine gun. Aren't these just pistols designed to be fired more quickly? Basically, is there any real difference, damage, range or accuracy wise between a 9mm fully auto pistol and a mp5?

>>28379988
Most machinepistols/SMGs are going to have longer barrels than a handgun in the same caliber, so yes to better range and potentially damage, but not drastically so.
One important difference is that true Machinepistols often don't have stocks so firing them even in short bursts can make accuracy at that extended range poor

>>28379988
Longer barrels generally make things more accurate. Keeping that in mind will help you a lot with realism.

>>28379988
>Aren't these just pistols designed to be fired more quickly?
No. Historically SMGs (universally called Machinepistols or Machineguns at the time) were developed during WWI to offer portable automatic fire for trench clearing that was lighter and easier to move with than full-sized rifles

>>28380023
>>28380051
>>28380057

Ok so they're more like the mid-ground between a rifle and pistol, but using the same ammo as a pistol. More accurate, marginally more powerful, heavier than a pistol and lighter than a rifle.

Also larger magazines to help with the full or semi auto fire rate.
Now, in terms of rifles, I'm a bit confused. There seem to be lots of kinds; Assault rifles, battle rifles, hunting rifles, etc. I was thinking of breaking these up into individual sections but the major differences between them seem to be sort of interchangeable, if that makes sense? Like, a shotgun is extremely different from an AK47, but an AK47 and an AR-15 seem like they're basically the same, in a general gameplay sense.

Does it make sense to have them all in the same catagory with the big changes being the action, ammo, range and stuff like that?

>>28380183
As far as rifles go, there are 2 BIG differences:

Bolt Actions - big, long, usually wood furniture, have the big knob you have to pull every shot. These typically fire full size POWERFUL rounds with high degrees of accuracy. These are your WW1/2 service rifles and most people's hunting rifles. There are bolt actions in smaller calibres but gameplay wise those are less common. These are heavier and have a slower fire rate.

Automatics - AKs, ARs, etc. Anything you just pull a trigger with. These typically fire intermediate cartridges, bigger than a pistol but smaller than a Bolt Action (though there are rounds like .50 Beowulf designed to have similar ballistics at shorter range). These have good accuracy and damage at intermediate ranges of a couple hundred feet.
An important note about these: you never go full retard. Even three-round-burst makes your accuracy worthless so unless you're just dumping bullets to suppress an enemy they should stay on semi-automatic.

In between these you may have "Scout Rifles" which are typically semi-autos that fire full size rounds, but they're sketchy at best even as an irl concept.

>>28380263
There are also Lever Action Rifles that fire effectively huge pistol rounds though unless you're in a Western setting those aren't super common and can basically be considered "lite" Bolt Actions

>>28380183
A Shotgun is not typically a rifle (there are rifled shotguns but they're still mechanically different)
A Shotgun fires a shell containing a primer and a "payload" of whatever you want in it. Usually a handful of BBs (referred to as 'shot'- birdshot, buckshot, etc) or a Slug which is effectively a fatass bullets.
Shotguns firing shot have a cone of fire as the shot spreads out so it inflicts a grouping of wounds on an enemy. Contrary to what videogames tell you, Shotguns can be accurate at ranges in the hundreds of yards, especially with slugs.
Also, shotguns are so mechanically simple that you can fire a shotshell containing anything and be just about alright- nails, glass, one anon shot napalm out of a shotgun on here and burned down a forest.
Shotgun actions can basically be grouped to Break action (open up the barrel and remove the shells after firing, usually 1 or 2 shots) Pump Action and Semi-Auto.

>>28379899
There shouldn't be any base bonuses of maluses, but a character proficient with an SA but not a DA should get a penalty until they get some time to practice. In fact, since guns have all sorts of little differences that can seriously affect effectiveness with them proficiency should be in specific models or configurations rather than "Weapons Proficiency - Rifles."

>>28379988
>>28380183
No, they aren't a mid-ground between anything. It's just a regular old pistol that offers automatic fire as well in case you might want it for some incredibly situational reason. They should be treated as pistols and have a large accuracy penalty when fired in automatic, perhaps equivalent to a lack of proficiency in a submachinegun, and treated as a submachinegun when they are fitted with a stock. The longer barrel thing is true but unless you're going to get so autistic as to calculate muzzle energy and velocity for every weapon+ammunition combination and have that impact the game meaninglessly then it really makes no difference, especially at the range pistols are usually used.

First off, an AK47 is an assault rifle and an AR-15 is not. An assault rifle is a select-fire intermediate-cartridge rifle. That is, it doesn't fire a full-sized round like .308/7.62x51 or 7.62x54r, but rather a smaller round like .223/5.56x45 or 7.62x39. A battle rifle is a selective fire or semiautomatic service rifle that fires a full-sized rifle round. "Hunting rifle" just means any rifle for hunting. I'm assuming you mean a bolt-action rifle. They tend to shoot the same rounds as battle rifles, but are also often more accurate at longer ranges, though a battle rifle can be made to perform as well too.

Do you have a specific question? There are too many differences to just list off what should be different about them in game terms.

>>28380358
>t's just a regular old pistol that offers automatic fire as well in case you might want it for some incredibly situational reason.
That's factually incorrect. A longer barrel and stock go a long way to improving accuracy and overall ballistics. Machinepistols/SMGs were invented at a time when service pistols were borderline nonexistant and automatic fire was not man-portable.

>>28380382
A stock does, a longer barrel does not at normal pistol combat range. As I said, with a stock it should be treated as an SMG, without it as just a pistol with an automatic option. Maybe a slight accuracy and rage increase as well, as automatic versions do, as you say, tend to be better-constructed and provided with higher-performance parts than their semi-automatic versions. But functionally, they're still sidearms and will be used in much the same way as a regular pistol except in specific situations, and even then an actual submachinegun is almost always better option.

I'm saying this as both a PnP player and a game master. The differences in construction will not make a significant difference in effectiveness in the vast majority of situations players are likely to encounter.

>>28380462
Thing is, straight machinepistols/PDWs aren't all that common anymore. I doubt a player is specifically gonna grab a Tek-9 Glock FoFowty Mac9/11 Problem Solver© so differentiating between the twois nearly meaningless. That said, OP hasn't talked much about the setting.

That said, it's also worth differentiating SMGs and Semi-Auto Rifles on the basis that they can recieve more tacticool mall ninja shit than others due to their construction, rails and whatnot.

>All these people not knowing fucking anything

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>>28380183
>>28380263
battle rifles are automatics that fire the same rounds as bolt actions but are heavier and have more recoil (making full auto practically impossible), but offer longer range than an intermediate cartridge.

there's also machineguns designed for continous full auto fire for both 'full size' and 'intermediet' cartridges, and both weigh a lot more than regular rifles in both calibers but this weight also gives better accuracy, but should only be fired when you have something to steady the gun on (wall, bipod, sandbags, etc)

Go on wikipedia and compare the weight and caliber for M9, MP5, M16, M249 and M240 to get a better understand of the differences.

Here's an image so you can compare the different calibers they fire.

>>28380546
>one anon asking questions and people answering with very simplified responses for the purposes of having fun in a fantasy videogame
Is your autism overtaking you son?

>>28380507
Yeah, that's why I'd suggest just a single set of SMG rules to apply to all of them, and also to apply to stocked machinepistols, since they are unlikely to appear in the game much.

>That said, it's also worth differentiating SMGs and Semi-Auto Rifles on the basis that they can recieve more tacticool mall ninja shit than others due to their construction, rails and whatnot.
It depends on the rifle and setting though. If it's a more contemporary setting then they'll have scary black rifles covered in rails just as often as they'll have grandpappy's old Model 8. And there are plenty of aftermarket parts and kits to make older service rifles tacticool and shit. If OP's going that far with customization then I'd expect those options to be available to any player who asks and has the means to acquire them.

>>28380579
>And there are plenty of aftermarket parts and kits to make older service rifles tacticool and shit
Yeah but unless gunsmiths are a serious thing in this setting I doubt the PCs are gonna head out to Trout Artisan Shoppe and get their Nugget tapped and mounted for a stock. Point of SMGs/scary black Rifles being that you can just pop new accessories on pretty much at will.

>>28380600
>for a stock
Durr *scope

>>28380600
And here we reach somewhat of an impasse.

What the fuck is the setting, OP?

>>28380549
>but this weight also gives better accuracy
i meant they are easier to control (keep on target) because there is less felt recoil thanks to the weight.

and i forgot a battle rifle example: G3 or FAL

Single action: you have to have the hammer cocked. In a revolver you do this manually. In a semiautomatic this is handled by chambering a round, and you don't have to cock the hammer manually unless you are a retard who lowered the hammer on a loaded chamber.

Double action: nothing different. You pull trigger, it pulls hammer back and releases. Most double action guns can be fired in single action mode if desired, but not all. This reduces the weight of the trigger pull significantly.

>>28380629
1980's modern fantasy.

So I care more about the feel of shooting than any really hard number crunch or anything.

>>28380962
>1980s
In that case machinepistols would actually be quite common as gangbanger driveby weapons

>>28380962
Mac-10
Uzi
Tec-9
Maybe a Jamatic
Good places to start for the looks, anyway.

>>28380962
Mkay. Well, since a lot of the discussion so far has been on smgs and machine pistols, maybe use long rifle range/accuracy for an SMG that has a stock and is shouldered (mp5, for example). Something like a skorpion or mac-10 should have pistol-like accuracy and range if it doesn't have a stock. So it keeps things simple, two-handed rifle/shotgun proficiency and one-handed capable pistol proficiency. Smgs fall into both categories and players can fire a stocked SMG one-handed while running or stop and take more accurate shots as if using a long rifle. If the system has the two action turn, maybe pistols and other one-handed weapons can be fired at a disadvantage even when using standard action to run, while rifles are too bulky to do so.

>>28381375
pistol calibers wont even be close to the range of a rifle caliber because they have much less powder.

>>28381375
One thing here is I'm generating guns via roll tables, so my curiousities are related more to stuff like

"Could I get the variety of rifles by just interchanging stuff like bolt action and auto action, barrel length, stock style, ammo used, etc"

and

"What do I have to change or add from pistol gen to get a reasonable SMG?"

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>>28380962
Then you won't have any rails and shit to deal with. Single-action revolvers have become obsolete but double-action revolvers are still incredibly popular and those cool 9mm pistols are finally catching on outside the military. All kinds of cold war shit and WWII surplus is floating around for cheap and you can outfit a small army with relatively modest funds if you know the right people. Modern weapons are still relatively uncommon for civilians and wood-covered long guns are still the norm, but those fancy plastic guns are starting to make themselves known, and the market is saturated with space guns and top-of-the-line hardware like the M16A2 and AK-74, as well as cheap knockoffs. If the setting is in America or an America analogue civilians can still legally acquire new automatic weapons with relative ease and at low prices, so they shouldn't be incredibly uncommon.

Attachments won't be a huge deal. You'll have optical scopes, flashlights, the occasional sci-fi-looking night vision equipment, etc but none of the electronics that the modern operator has access to. If your players ask about modern conveniences like laser pointers and holographic sights tell them shit hasn't been invented yet and the weapon has to be used as-is.

As for rifles, there really isn't any way to balance them. An assault rifle is the ultimate multipurpose weapon. It will be only slightly more unwieldy in short-range encounters than a SMG (of which there are plenty in your setting, since this is the 80s and they were kind of a fad then) and they are actually capable of reasonable accuracy at several hundred yards which an SMG or pistol is not. They only lose to battle rifles and bolt-action rifles at range, though battle rifles are passable in close quarters as well. If your characters are riflemen the rules should naturally push them towards assault and battle rifles depending on their role.

>>28380662
>G3 or FAL
>no M14
Hey, don't eschew materiel. Europe pain sometimes.

>>28381375
>fire while running
wont hit anything

>>28381552
>Could I get the variety of rifles by just interchanging stuff like bolt action and auto action, barrel length, stock style, ammo used, etc
not sure i understand.

but changing those things would change the characteristics (accuracy, damage, range etc) a lot in some cases.

>"What do I have to change or add from pistol gen to get a reasonable SMG?"
changing any gun from semi to full would need an auto sear.

>>28381592
i chose to post guns with good service lives.

>>28381592
I think the only solution for balance is to go full video game and say:

Pistol (semi): Quickdraw, easy to use, medium RoF, low damage, low range, small mag

SMG (full auto): Very high RoF, low damage, low range, small-med mag

Assault Rifle (full auto): Med-high RoF, medium damage, medium range, medium mag

Battle Rifle (full auto): Med RoF, med-high damage, med-long range, medium mag

Sniper Rifle (semi): Hard to use, low RoF, very high damage, very long range, small mag

MG (full auto): Hard to use, med-high RoF, high damage, med-long range, huge mag

Pretend that assault rifles and battle rifles can't into anything other than automatic and you're set. Good luck finding a use for sniper rifles though.

>>28381552
>"Could I get the variety of rifles by just interchanging stuff like bolt action and auto action, barrel length, stock style, ammo used, etc"
You technically can, but certain combinations will not exist. Bolt-action rifles are almost all long-range weapons with long barrels and semiautomatic and select-fire rifles can be found in pretty much any role. Most bolt-actions also use full-sized rounds, though there are many exceptions, but with semiautomatics and select fire you can find them in pretty much any rifle round.

Be careful to differentiate between weapons that chamber pistol rounds and rifle rounds. SMGs and pistols cannot be used at long ranges with any expectation of effectiveness, and so their accuracy should drop off sharply at the longest distance you consider a short-range encounter in game terms. There are rifles that chamber pistol rounds but they're mostly leverguns and specialty shit so unless your players ask about it there's no need to have rifles that don't shoot rifle rounds.

>"What do I have to change or add from pistol gen to get a reasonable SMG?"
They have longer barrels and and so are more accurate at longer ranges, and should have insurmountable (though maybe partially mitigable with feats) penalties to one-handed wielding, unlike pistols which should get no penalty for one-handing, and perhaps a bonus to accuracy and rate of fire when two-handed. SMGs also will have much larger magazines and of course a higher rate of fire than a pistol. An SMG cannot also be easily concealed of course, so if the player wants to inconspicuously carry an automatic weapon they'll have to shell out the cash for a machinepistol. They have different roles. A pistol is a sidearm that can be used effectively at short ranges, and an SMG is a full-featured service weapon specialized for close-range encounters. They should be balanced as such.

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>>28381801
>Battle Rifle: med-high damage
>Sniper Rifle: very high damage

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>>28381836
longer barrel = more damage bro
And everybody knows snipers fire .50 california rounds which tear spacetime around the target, killing them instantly

Unless you have a better way to balance it. I'm saying a video game-like system might work.

>>28381801
If you're going the "base weapons are the same and differences are cosmetic or modify their base values" route, then shit gets even more unbalanced. The problem with games that have guns is that they try to balance them at all. Weapons are not about balance. They're about having the right tool for the job.

A battle rifle, "sniper rifle," (what does this mean?) and a machine gun should all have the same class of damage and range since they all have long barrels and shoot the same rounds. Why the fuck would one be significantly better than the other?

>>28381884
Games that try to balance weapons suck ass. A tool is made to do a particular thing or set of things. In doing that thing it should win against something made to do something else in every realistic situation.

>>28381801
>battle rifles can't into anything other than automatic
not gonna hit shit with full auto battle rifle

>>28381901
>>28381924
OP is running a game and I'm telling him a way he can balance it like a game. Unless you want his PCs to get capped left and right or end up all equipped with the same weapon that they figured out works in 99% of situations. I'm forgoing a lot of realism for fun.

Sniper rifle means whatever GM's friends use in Call of Duty to quickscope. Not the designated marksman's scoped battle rifle. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sniper_rifle

>>28381998
There's a reason people get laughed at for playing a gunslinger. Adding guns is a significant departure from the traditional fantasy setting, so it should play differently too. If you're clearing out a den of goblins with your 14th C. band of adventurers you'll get into a formation with the tanks at the front and your archers and casters in the back, your rogue sneaking around after having infiltrated and scoped the place out earlier to look for weaknesses in the enemy's defenses.

Now if you're clearing out a goblin crack house perhaps your rogue will still go first to scout out the building and find weaknesses in their defenses, but will also look for cover for your other characters to use. Then your ranger will blow open the door and your wizard will cast the glitterdust that he's been holding while your ranger, cleric, and rogue rush in with their MP5s and M1 carbines as the tank lays down some suppressive fire with his RPK on the dazzled goblins. As the glitterdust clears the room is cleared out by the party and everybody lays low behind cover in case more goblins rush out of the hallway. Then your faggy finesse character with his high CHA and special snowflake gun that nobody else has ammo for steps out and the wizard casts charm person, mass while the cleric is healing the wounded. The CHA whore pursuades the charmed to tell the party the positions of the stragglers who the spell failed on so the rogue can sneak into position to pick them off while the whore tries to convince them to give up. If negotiations break down the rogue initiates a sneak attack and one-shots everybody in a single round because he's a best-3-of-4d6 shitter with weighted dice who managed to roll an 18 on DEX and STR and has used the human racial bonus to push both up to 20.

See? Having deadlier weapons only forces the party to think diffferently and the DM to design more creative encounters than "you come across a hundred cultists in the cornfield."

>>28381815
>but certain combinations will not exist
Thats ok. Some bizarre lemons are fine. Generating this stuff Diablo like so they'll just discard that bolt action smg

>>28382245

Your description has created a desire for a SBR-and-sorcery door kickers board game that I never knew I had.

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>>28381592
Oh, so laser pointers weren't around in the 1980's eh? Alright, taking that off the generator.

>>28382245
Fair enough. Whatever idea you have sounds pretty neat.

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>>28382774
Nope, no laser pointers. Small laser diodes didn't come to market until the early 90s. In the 80s it was large gas lasers or solid-state lasers. Check out this ad.

>>28382390
Welcome to the Sixth world, chummer.

>>28382390
I'll add this to my list of "games I should make"

>>28379618

Don't try to be too precise with firearms in RPGs. There are literally thousands of different types of armaments and you're on a hiding to nowhere trying to write rules for them all.

Just have generic category profiles - Pistol, Assault Rifle, Sniper Rifle etc. Use Quality modifiers to personalise them - e.g. a Poor Assault Rifle can be the rusty AK of some cokehead Liberian rebel, a Common Pistol is can be the same-old Glock 19 used b over half of American police, while a Good Sniper Rifle can be the player's highly-personalised scratchbuilt weapon with everything sculpted to his grip.

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>>28384319
Thats pretty neat

It will go well with using cassette tapes and boomboxes to cast spells.