Ian v. Communists
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![ianceirigotti[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/uIjNED2.jpg "ianceirigotti[1].jpg")
I never really thought that he would come out as an ammosexual. It's pretty great though.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ab0zqGYO4c4
https://www.riafreedomchallenge.com/
>>30618634
Liberals want to grab your guns. Communists want to shoot capitalists with the guns they sold to them.
But yeah, with a Hillary presidency looming on the horizon even people who aren't usually political need to get vocal about 2nd Amendment rights.
Fuck yeah.
Donated.
non op bummp
>>30618634
Bump.
>>30618673
> liberals and communists are different
Nice. Tell us the communist countires that had based gun ownership?
>>30619434
>Tell us the communist countires that had based gun ownership
but familia those weren't real communists tho
>>30619434
Look at any "communist country" in history. Then ask yourself, "Were the means of production in that country controlled by the workers?".
If the answer is no, then they weren't communist.
>>30619860
if workers had the ability to control the means of production then they wouldn't be workers
>>30619434
Look up at gun per capita in Yugoslavia.
>>30619908
>the capitalist class possesses some kind of trait or ability that makes them inherently more suited to managing capital than the rest of the population, especially the labor that they have exploited to reach their position
>>30619961
>everyone is equally driven, creative, and intelligent
>>30619976
>individual excellence is necessary for democratic control of the workplace
>>30619434
UK is way more liberal than us french and we still got better gun laws
>>30619918
They just produced a shit ton of rifles for the military that were given to paramilitary forces. It didn't help the common people much when the ethnic purging started
>>30619986
>democratic control of the workplace is the most efficient and productive system
>>30620010
>capitalism locked in a constant tidal shift between under and overproduction to maximize surplus value
>locally organized workers councils cooperating to produce what is necessary for the population is somehow less efficient
>>30619434
Pinochet banned guns
Stalin banned guns
Therefore Pinochet was a stalinist
>communism has never been tried!
Like fucking clockwork
>>30619993
Burgeristan liberal =/= Eurabia liberal. In Europe liberal parties are pro-business middle to middle-right parties. They are called liberal because they are for liberal business practice. In the US, what is called liberal is what in Europe we call socialist.
>>30620088
The Paris commune was crushed.
Lenin castrated the Worker's Councils in 1921.
Mao began large scale central planning in 1951.
Communism has never been implemented.
>>30620111
Liberals in the US are entirely beholden to corporate interest. The DNC officially rejected minimum wage increases and anti-TPP as party platforms last month. Neoliberalism is just capitalism wearing a red shirt, it's not socialist by any stretch of the imagination.
Communism has only ever actually been done on a small scale because that's the only scale at which it works.
Vote libertarian candidates into power. You can have a commune in a libertarian society.
Can you please stop calling the entire left "communists" it makes us all look stupid.
>>30619434
>>30619653
>>30619961
>>30619976
>>30619986
>>30620010
>>30620027
>>30620088
>>30620161
Posting in quality thread.
>>30620161
On social matters, like marriage for faggots and women 'n nigger rights, they are like the European socialists. Anyway, the USA are not so much better than China or the USSR. They have/had only one party, and you have only two and both suck. In Europe we have dozens of parties... and 98% of all suck, too. Fuck this world!
>>30620161
Communism is impossible because Communism is so prone to corruption and power consolidations; giving total power and means of production to a centralized government/figure/organization always ends up with power-hungry people wanting more.
That's why all socialist/communist nations eventually end up with shitty dictatorships.
You're right; communism has never been implemented. However, this is so because it is impossible to be implemented.
>>30620209
Except the entire left does view communism as an eventual ideal.
>>30620285
'the entire left'
The whole 'left and right' political divide is different for every place, and time period. Its really stupid and arbitrary.
>>30620285
Completely false. Ask 90% of Democrats in the US if they think communism is viable and they'll give you the same "work's great on paper" line that everyone else does.
>>30620280
Communism isn't impossible to implement, it's just impossible for Communism to win in a head-to-head fight with capitalism. Any Communist nation would be forced into isolation and subject to international sanction and sabotage. Marx wrote about this at length, global revolution is necessary.
>>30620348
Well guess what cupcake. If your political ideology can't even handle a little agressive interference then it truly is impossible to implement period.
Stop trying to dumb down the rest of the world and admit your politics are naive. Instead of blaming more successful social models for all of your problems AGAIN.
The united states is weird.
The Republican party and Democrat party are pretty close to each other, except one wants to spend more on social programs, and the other wants to spend more on military and social programs and cutting taxes to the rich. Both don't particularly want to raise taxes, but neither wants to cut their spending, but do want to cut the spending on the programs their political rivals want.
Its why the tea party was established and why it fails. Tea partiers don't ever seem to want to cut spending for the programs they personally benefit from. Especially Social Security and medicaid. Don't ever believe for one second that the Republican party is fiscally conservative or responsible. Republicans only believe in cutting spending to the programs the dems want, and trying to create their mythical 'trickle-down' economy and paying for it with debt because they don't raise taxes or cut the programs their voters themselves use.
>>30620443
The feudal lords of Europe said the same things about the first capitalists. We'll see where history leads us :^)
>>30618634
I just donated 100 bucks!
Thanks, OP!
>>30620477
Man, that late stage capitalism sure is coming! kek
>>30620657
It's already started. Free trade agreements means more and more jobs and more and more production moving to developing countries. As the wealth divide in countries like the US continues to grow, maintaining the welfare state without massive corporate taxation will be impossible. Since the capitalists will never consent to that, and the welfare state doesn't actually solve any problems, civil unrest will become more and more common until the system collapses under its own weight.
>>30618634
Where was the NRA when they decided to ban semi-auto rifles?
FUCK the NRA
>>30620915
in California*
>>30620915
They can't do all the job.
You keep voting LOCAL antigun politics, you'll keep losing guns rights....
>>30620111
> liberal is what in Europe we call socialist
No they are not, it is just that in the US the political spectrum is so tilted to the right that even centrists seem to be leftwing.
>>30620962
>You
>Implying any of the 20% of CA populace that owns guns (nevermind the like 3% that isn't a "muh durr riffle" fudd) voted for any of these clowns.
>Implyin there aren't counties with bro-tier local officials
>Implying that matters when all state matters are 100% dictated by SF and Sac.
>>30620657
You have not noticed?
You are probably white so heres an example to make it easy: what slogan does Trump campaign with?
Reminder that Orwell, a notable leftist himself, mocked the 'Soviet's aren't Socialists' defense in the 30's and they're still bleating on nearly 100 years later with the same tired bullshit excuse.
Things literally haven't changed.
>>30620915
This argument is supreme retardation. It's like saying "Where was the fire department when Fort McMurray burned?" The NRA doesn't have a magical legislation switch that rejects any anti-gun legislation, dumbass.
>>30620991
all those good guy local officials dont help when your state legislature is chock full of antigun commies that fastracked antigun bills straight to the governor's desk to sign in mere days.
>>30620991
California RO here. I've worked multiple ranges in both the north and south of the state. AR pattern rifles are like sixty to seventy percent of what we see on the firing line.
>>30619860
lol look at Venezuela
KILL COMMIES
>>30619961
A lot of commies where Jewish bruh.
>>30618634
Just gave 10 dollars. You should do so.
>>30619860
Did your parents drop you on your head as a baby or are you just naturally stupid?
>>30621016
>You are probably white
L O L
>>30621778
Not communist :^)
>>30621811
Yeah and a lot weren't too.
t. Mikhail "The State is a Jewish Conspiracy" Bakunin
>>30620915
>>30620928
Keeping things in line at the federal level, which is their main job. Its on you to do shit at the state level.
>>30621833
>points out that no supposedly communist country ever actually fit the definition of communism
>"lol r u dumb?"
I bet you use the words communism and socialism interchangeably.
>>30619993
French tanks go in two directions the first is reverse for when they encounter the enemy,the second is forward for the rare occasion when the enemy attacks from the behind.
>>30623000
>>30623110
Oh look, I have garbage meme images too.
>>30623000
So what you need is for one day a party to seize the means of production, and instead of using them for its own benefit and crashing the economy into the ground (as has happened every time this has been attempted) somehow magically parsel out the ownership equally to every single "worker"?
>>30623130
Violence is not a necessary function of capitalism like it is of communism. A communist society can not function without coercion.
>>30623175
>violence is not a necessary function of capitalism
Every labor movement in history would say otherwise.
>>30623130
>State does something bad
>Commies blame capitalism
Top fucking kek
>>30623156
The worker's never seized the means of production m8, instead in literally every one of these countries they were seized by an oligarchic "vanguard party" because Leninists are shit. Actual worker control would entail something like direct collective ownership of factories, farms, etc, or at least state ownership if the state had a democratic structure.
>>30623175
Actually violence is a necessary function of communism, since property relations can only be maintained with force, which is how the capitalists maintain control of the economy and therefore the political process.
>>30623223
>state does something bad
>Capitalists blame communism
Top fucking kek
>>30623206
>try to overthrow government
>surprised when met with force by government
And this has what to do with free markets?
>>30623223
The capitalist state Anon. Under Marxist theory the state and the capitalist elite aren't independent of each other, the state, being under the control of the wealthiest citizens (who are typically capitalists), acts tyrannically to support the interests of those citizens.
TLDR: The state did what it did in those situations to support the interests of the capitalists.
>>30623206
>some faggots riot and get roughed up
vs
>millions starve or lack basic amenities due to mismanagement of the means of production, thousands more are gulag'd for pissing off the party
I'm not saying capitalism is perfect, but the concept of free exchange carries no inherent violence. You can build your stupid communes in a capitalist society, but if someone wanted to run a business outside of the party's influence in a communist society, they would be killed.
>>30623230
By violence I mean violent coercion. Defending what you gained peacefully is entirely justifiable.
>>30623262
>>30623239
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lattimer_massacre
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ludlow_Massacre
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1912_Lawrence_textile_strike
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paint_Creek%E2%80%93Cabin_Creek_strike_of_1912
Please at least attempt to learn the history of the country you live in.
>>30623243
I am aware of your dialectics, commie. Guess what, free market people such as myself are against state backed private interests, too. The problem you people seem to have is in associating free and voluntary exchanges in a commercial market society as being coercive and inherently oppressive, somehow.
>>30623236
I mean when those states operated under socialistic principles of national ownership and central planning of the economy which Marx would call the dictatorship of the proletariat, are you surprised?
>>30623236
>"dictatorship of the proletariat"
>not a state
>>30623130
Oh, goody, let's compare body counts!
>Pinkertons, 9
>Leopold II, 8 million groids
>Shah, 60,000
>Pinochet, 3200
>Lenin, 4 million
Oosh, not looking already
>Stalin, 20 million
Well, shit.
>Mao, 45 million
Chinese aren't really people, though, right?
>Pol Pot, 7 million
Yeah, capitalism sure is evil, huh?
>>30623283
>Corporations operating with subsidies
>Backed by state
>Blames free markets
>>30623303
All they'll do is just say that literally everybody how died ever died because of capitalism.
>>30619653
>but familia those weren't real communists tho
horseshit!! that's the lamest excuse ever for bailing out on an discussion
>>30623283
>only one example has more than fifty deaths
>even that's unconfirmed
Yeah, great case against free markets, dumbass, how about finding an example that doesn't get blown out of the water by traffic accidents in 1912 when practically nobody had cars (>3000, btw).
>>30623322
Geez, if everyone dies because of capitalism, capitalism is even worse than white people! Imagine the horror of white people engaging in capitalism! I don't know how I could sleep if something like that were to ever happen.
>>30618723
What is that Boner-Condoner!?!
Central planners, pls read
https://www.google.com/url?q=http://fee.org/articles/how-to-create-starvation-in-2016/&sa=U&ved=0ahUKEwiCsOCykPTNAhUHFx4KHdW2Aa4QFggFMAA&client=internal-uds-cse&usg=AFQjCNHjO-T6yIlQ0pT99wzPHaYqwxTFaA
https://fee.org/articles/give-me-liberty/
>>30623339
All they have are no true Scotsman defenses. Their ideology is non falsifiable and completely impracticable.
>>30623289
Then how is it a logical stretch to apply blame to capitalism for atrocities committed by relevant nations?
>>30623290
Are you sure you're reading correctly?
>>30623303
The point was that shitty meme images aren't an argument. It's also been established multiple times in this thread that none of those parties were, by definition, not Communist.
>>30623342
That's not the point. The point is that Capitalism relies on violent coercion just as much as a Communist revolution would. See >>30623230
>>30623365
Central planning is bullshit, and since the only other commieposter in this thread besides me also seems to have a disdain for Marxism-Leninism I don't think those links apply to anyone.
>>30623365
Oh, also, a lot of Marx's critiques of capitalism fall apart when applied to the subjective theory of value and marginalist views of economics.
https://fee.org/search/?q=labor+theory
>>30623401
>>30623303
That none of those parties were, by definition, Communist**
Jesus I need to take a break from this shit.
>>30623401
Capitalism is an economic system whereas communism is a political system controlling the economy. Communists can declare wars, but capitalists can only fight in them.
>>30623401
>The point was that shitty meme images aren't an argument.
Neither is unfalsifiable commie bullshit.
>The point is that Capitalism relies on violent coercion just as much as a Communist revolution would.
So let's kill orders of magnitude more people to bring about the glorious workers' revolution and get worse results when it "happens". Okay.
>>30623401
Because your definition of capitalism is so nebulous as to be meaningless. When I speak of "capitalism" I mean a system of mutually beneficial voluntary exchanges. I prefer to call it a commercial market society because Smith>Marx. Capitalism to commies like you means just about whatever you don't like, it seems.
In that regard, state actions cannot be attributed to a free (or mostly) market as that would be antithetical to the system (lack thereof). Again, if you bothered to be intellectually honest, you;d be able to recognize that free marketeers don't like state action on behalf of who you call the "captialist" class either.
>>30623419
And no True Scotsman would put sugar on his porridge.
>>30623130
>commies
>innocents
pick one and only one
>>30620928
>>30620915
They are fighting it though.
>https://www.nraila.org/articles/20160701/california-governor-signs-draconian-gun-control-package-into-law
>https://www.nraila.org/articles/20160701/california-governor-brown-signs-anti-gun-bills
>>30623507
My econ professor joked that commies aren't people because they reject property rights and, thus, the ideas of ownership that make us human. Dude was based as fuck.
>>30623474
Truly free markets don't exist, though, because there's not a capitalist alive that doesn't want the power that comes from their intertwining with the state. The modern liberal-democratic nationstate exists as a product of Capitalism, it exists to serve the needs of the Capitalist class.
Also, whether or not the Capitalist class wants or does not want government intervention in their affairs is irrelevant. The real point is that capital does not exist in a vacuum, it is irrevocably tied to labor, and in the eternal quest for the production of surplus value the Capitalist class will continue to exploit labor until something forces them to stop.
>>30623528
How unfortunate that your econ professor was so uneducated that he couldn't tell the difference between private and personal property. I guess they'll let anybody into academia these days.
>>30623289
Except free markets are really only voluntary on paper, a worker and an employer don't have equal negotiating power, so the employer is in a position to dictate terms that the worker is compelled to accept. If a person was drowning, and you could save them, but told them that you would only do it if they gave you a million dollars, and they agreed, would you call that voluntary?
Furthermore capitalism always creates a disparity of wealth that not only allows the rich to increase their wealth at an exponential rate, but allows them to influence the political system for their own interests. This has occurred in literally every capitalist society, the rich have a stranglehold on the political system and effectively engineer oligarchy. True democracy can only exist under conditions of economic equality.
>>30623528
>ownership makes us human
I've heard of the ideological superstructure of the bourgeois state but this is taking it a little far. Next you're going to tell me that property rights are inherent.
>>30620749
>civil unrest will become more and more common until the system collapses under its own weight.
Any day now. I thought we'd have been heading to a communist revolution before the 1990s, but here we are.
>>30621016
>what slogan does Trump campaign with?
Shitskins git out
>>30623574
>Next you're going to tell me that property rights are inherent.
They are, though. If you commie turdstains would like to upend natural rights completely, you're going to have to try a hell of a lot harder than bitching about how that """revolution""" is coming, ANY DAY NOW, on a Malaysian hummel figurine enthusiasts messageboard.
>>30623559
>If a person was drowning, and you could save them, but told them that you would only do it if they gave you a million dollars, and they agreed, would you call that voluntary?
You liken employment to drowning?
>>30623614
No rights are natural m8, 400 years ago the divine right of kings was considered "natural" and "self evident" by every respected scholar.
>>30623621
The point I'm trying to make is that somebody looking for employment in most situations will need the employer more than the employer needs them, which means that the employer will be in a better condition to dictate terms to the employee. It's not really voluntary if you have no other choice.
>>30623551
>Surplus value
Opinion discarded
Read this. Labor theory of value has been thoroughly trounced by men more clever than you or I, and surplus value along with it.
https://fee.org/articles/the-fallacy-of-intrinsic-value/
And on my econ professor, you don't give him enough credit. There are many Marxists on the faculty and he has engaged with them frequently, never satisfied with the personal vs private property explanation. As if you can have one and not the other, anyways.
>>30623559
How is the worker compelled to accept the terms? Do corporate commandos force him at gunpoint to sign a contract? If you say "he has to work to eat and as such it isn't voluntary" I say the hell it isn't. He'd rather work and not starve than work and starve. Regardless, if you think that some output of effort in order to maintain a certain level of existence is either coercive, oppressive, or inherent only to capitalism I'd ask you to go live in the woods for a month and tell me about it.
In your example with the drowning man, clearly it is as he accepted the offered terms of a million dollars and that he clearly values his own survival over the money he chooses to give me. He lives, I get money, we're both better off.
Whoever said I cared about democracy? Economic and civil freedoms are preferable to political freedom especially since, if the ebil gabitalists have no political power, they cannot influence the state. But here I am expecting a commie to understand economics.
>>30623654
I meant to say not work and starve. I am expecting one of you to say "the mask slips" or something in response to my typo.
>>30623649
Classic nirvana fallacy, for one. He has choices, they just aren't necessarily all good ones. It is voluntary because, even if that is the only employer available to him he can still choose to not be employed. Again, we're talking about cost benefit analysis here.
>>30623559
>>30623551
how old are you two cause if you're 20+ you should have grown out of the rebellious "i'm a communist dad" phase by now
People are different in capability this cannot be denied or obfuscated.
Trying to enforce equality of outcomes when people naturally do not have equality of capability is impossible. Even less so when you give someone/someones the power the "try" and make people equal.
>>30623654
>How is the worker compelled to accept the terms?
Because they are faced with either acceptance or death/abject poverty, that isn't voluntary m8. It would be the same as using coercion themselves to compel the worker's compliance, except they are simply taking advantage of the conditions of life in a capitalist society.
>Economic and civil freedoms are preferable to political freedom
Wew lad, so now you're actually going against the entire grain of libertarian thought. Political freedom, that is the freedom to participate in the exercising of power, is the only freedom that matters, since it is the means by which society is managed. Without political freedom there is no freedom, since the state simply dictates to the population.
>>30620010
The problem with being obsessed with the "efficiency" of the economy is it leads to there only being Deodorant brand deodorant, Toothpaste brand toothpaste, and Food brand food. After all, what do you need choices for, comrade?
>>30623589
Disparity in wealth is higher now than it has ever been. Workplace automation and job outsourcing continue to increase, and free trade agreements like the TPP and TTIP will only exaggerate this. As capitalists constantly seek to lower production cost and maximize profits, workers will be unable to purchase their products and the system has a crisis. That's the nature of capitalism.
>>30623654
You should read Stirner.
>>30623696
Of course he could chose to be unemployed. However you know just as well as I that choosing not to work excludes you from society. Without money you can't pay your mortgage or rent, you can't pay for utilities, you can't travel to find new work, you can't even eat.
>>30623706
All humans have roughly the same capabilities and this has been widely accepted since Hobbes first wrote about this in the 17th century. Sure not everybody can be a doctor or a scientist but for the most part every human shares an equality of ability.
>>30623696
Except the practice is still completely exploitative and coercive, the capitalist is just in the convenient position of not being the one who created the conditions that force the worker to comply. Furthermore it also completely undermines the idea that wealth can be earned simply through hard work and determination. If you look at such a system and honestly believe that it maximizes personal freedom then you are deluded.
The point isn't to have decisions be voluntary on paper, the point is to maximize personal freedom. Socialism is far more in line with libertarian principles than capitalism.
>>30623649
>The point I'm trying to make is that somebody looking for employment in most situations will need the employer more than the employer needs them, which means that the employer will be in a better condition to dictate terms to the employee. It's not really voluntary if you have no other choice.
false dichotomy, The person can employ himself, nearly every person can perform a service that someone else want's to buy.
This is even more true in a society that doesn't constrict the individual buy seizing his wealth under threat of violence.
>>30623758
>The person can employ himself
I wasn't aware that everybody in the world had the resources and knowledge to become self employed.
>nearly every person can perform a service that someone else want's to buy.
True, and because of this worker's and employees are expendable. The supply far outstrips demand.
>>30623729
>Sure not everybody can be a doctor or a scientist but for the most part every human shares an equality of ability.
cognitive dissonance: the reply
>>30623717
Again, dude, that's the nirvana fallacy. He does face the choice and that doesn't change just because one of them is death or abject poverty.
>>30623729
I am aware of what not working does. Your statement of simple fact does not change the fact that our theoretical worker will choose the option that is most valuable to him and if he chooses not to work he accepts the implications of what his unemployment will bring.
>>30623746
>Conditions that force the worker to comply
As if that is somehow a function of a captialistic system exclusively and not nature? The reality of needing to exert effort to maintain a certain level of existence is universal. Also, the fact that the average person today is wealthier than 40 years ago demonstrates that your assertion is wrong.
Also socialism is inherently authoritarian. I don't care what Chomsky has to say about it.
>>30623706
Equality is the only logical basis for a society, since there is no objective way to determine who is more deserving of reward without relying on random abstractions.
>>30623809
Clearly we should strive for a society consisting entirely of identical clones
>>30623809
A possible solution to your quandary is what is called a free market, in which people's choices determine who will receive a reward the goods and services voluntarily provided and consumed. Unless of course you think choice is a random abstraction.
>>30623803
>As if that is somehow a function of a captialistic system exclusively and not nature?
It's a function that is made far worse by a system that is inherently exploitative, seeking maximum gain for minimum returns.
>Also, the fact that the average person today is wealthier than 40 years ago demonstrates that your assertion is wrong.
That's simply a function of industrialization and technological advance. Rising standards of living have coincided with the ability to produce goods faster and cheaper due to advancements in industrialization.
>Also socialism is inherently authoritarian.
How so?
>>30623833
Except free markets don't create a society where choice alone determines the outcome. Rather they lead to mass polarization of wealth unless kept in check by state or other power.
>>30623784
>I wasn't aware that everybody in the world had the resources and knowledge to become self employed.
If you you don't have a IQ in the 70s you should be able to do something that people will pay money for. The real question in the modern era is can you afford the state sanctioned license to perform that service
>True, and because of this worker's and employees are expendable. The supply far outstrips demand.
wrong again, competent employees are not expendable and are in high demand, hiring someone is always an investment and a risk.
>captcha select store fronts
petite bourgeoisie reeeee
>>30623788
http://www.bartleby.com/34/5/13.html
>>30623803
>socialism is inherently not what it's definition and the founders of its theoretical basis say it is
Come on, dude.
>>30623833
A free market will never exist because social capital is based on political power and capitalists will always seek political power to preserve their system.
>>30623809
>Equality is the only logical basis for a society
Equality of rights is the basis for a society i.e all people will be treated equally in the eyes of the law. If you expect equality of outcomes you are doomed to failure.
>>30618634
Everyone stop fucking arguing about communism and get in the fight. Leftists are currently pushing more bullshit. Fuck them. Fuck them all.
>>30623649
I'll tell you what I'd do if I found somebody drowning: I'd ask them if they were a communist/socialist/anarcho-commie. If they said yes, I'd let go.
>>30623729
Oh look, of course it's the Stirner fag. Why don't you go 'spook' up something worth wasting your time on?
>Sure not everybody can be a doctor or a scientist but for the most part every human shares an equality of ability.
Talk about mental gymnastics.
>>30623893
>>30623879
Read. Hobbes.
>>30623879
>Come on, dude.
I think he's saying that the ideology and its real world implications are completely different, which would be true.
The fact that these scumsuckers keep trying over and over again can only be attributed to insanity.
>>30623843
>It's a function that is made far worse by a system that is inherently exploitative, seeking maximum gain for minimum returns.
I don't know where you get off saying that a system of mutually beneficial voluntary exchanges is inherently exploitative. I've already mentioned how Marx's critiques of capitalism fall flat when in we think about them in terms of marginalism and subjective theory of value.
>That's simply a function of industrialization and technological advance. Rising standards of living have coincided with the ability to produce goods faster and cheaper due to advancements in industrialization.
As if that didn't come about as a result of the profit motive and markets in the western world generally being more free than elsewhere?
>How so?
Hayek makes some pretty good points about it in any one of his writings, but it is authoritarian because, depending on context, the state forces compliance with the plan it carries out. Basically, you are going to have competing and conflicting interests regardless of what sort of economic system (or lack thereof) you have. If the state goes with a particular plan in the case of a polity with state owned resources and means of production, it will have to force compliance and, if it is democratic, leave the actual planning to bureaucracies dedicated to that. I'm not nearly eloquent enough to explain it well, but that is a very rough gist of it.
>>30623915
I prefer Locke. Hobbes had a bunch of faggy ideas about human interaction which were patently untrue even in his own time.
>>30623859
>>30623879
And a market anarchist would say "that's why no one will have political power as there would be no state."
A free market statist would say "the government's powers will be limited and kept in check in order to prevent economic interests of select parties gaining the support of the state."
try harder
https://fee.org/
>>30618634
There is a very big distinction between the NRA and the NRA-ILA.
The NRA is a corrupt, selfish, diseased, self-consuming paper tiger of a garbage organization held afloat solely by advertising-motivated donations made by incredibly stupid, short-sighted fudds.
The NRA-ILA has a genuine ability to do good. Will they get machine guns back? No. Will they get non-sporting rifles back? No. Will they get free interstate firearm commerce back? No. Will they successfully oppose a federal assault weapon ban? No. But they can and do help with other things. Right to concealed carry. Concealed carry reciprocity. Handguns, magazine limits, safe/lock requirements, ammo availability, micro-stamping, and on and on.
The NRA will take your money and send you stupid Chinese gifts and literal inches of pointless literature begging you for even more money.
The NRA-ILA will not.
Make sure you're sending your money to the right place. They do not share.
>>30623130
The Shah did nothing wrong.
>>30623879
>http://www.bartleby.com/34/5/13.html
starts off with very poor premise by supposing that if you don't have strength you have wits, a person can have both or neither. The natural selection proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that there will be winners and losers, on a timescale of millions of years and dictated purely by chance (mutations if you didn't get the implication).
>>30620991
>#NotAllCalifornians
>>30623859
>unless kept in check by state or other power.
wealth buys power the stronger a government is the more power you can buy, and a government with the power to make individual outcomes equal has a hell of a lot of power.
>>30620032
Pinochet was a fucking socialist too. Hitler was a socialist. Stalin was a socialist. They all believed in an enormous all powerful government that controlled everyones lives and was based on constantly finding new scapegoats to purge from society.
Now if the particular group you decide to purge next happens to be armed, it would be alot more difficult to lead them off to the mass graves. Being pro-socialist is to devalue human life. There are accounts of Russians talking about having their family members taken away by the police for execution, and how they cowered in fear while the doomed party was lead away compliantly.
Now you might start up with your "that's not real communism" bullshit, but the absolute fact of the matter is that communism is not possible unless it is done at a point of a gun, and ankle deep in a huge puddle of blood. That is the only way it can be implemented, and that is the way it has been implemented in EVERY case in human history. So go fuck yourself with your poorly thought out anti-freedom views. If you're an American you should get the fuck out, you are unworthy of freedom.
>>30624121
The best part is that so-called socialists are "pro-gun" only until the revolution is over. After that, everything is peachy so nobody would ever need a gun!
Then, gulags.
>______________¶___
>|religion of peace ||l “”|””\__,_
>|______________|||__|__|__|]
>(@)@)*********(@)(@)**(@)
>>30624121
That's pretty much the point Hayek makes in "The Road to Serfdom." That, at the end of the day, the collectivist and authoritarian ideologies that sell themselves as different and perfect are, ultimately, different sides of the same despotic coin.
>>30620915
Busy winning the fucking federal government with god emperor Trump.
Once they win the whole country, NRA is going to buttfuck California's gay laws out of existence with FEDERAL SUPREMACY and passing literally any laws they need to win the lawsuits they already have.
Not to mention stacking literally all the courts with progunners.
California just reached for the sun, and soon they'll be paying for going too far legally.
where are all the dumbass commies now i need to btfo them some more.
Can we just praise almighty Ian-sama
>>30618723
All those lovely muscles, and all I can do is desperately hope she isn't a trap or a tranny.
Damn you /k/. You've officially ruined amazons for me.
>>30620214
Please kill yourself
>>30624290
but the benis only makes it better anon.
>>30624290
Shhh don't be like that anon there's always 2D
>>30623724
choice = value
that was all implying anyhow.
i hope to meet communists on the field of battle one day, sadly they don't seem to be able to field much of an army these days, just a great deal of yipping.
who knows what the future holds though, maybe we'll get to kill some space commies someday.
>>30624419
That's because aside from a few enclaves of legit state communism, most commies are just college kids whose professors told them that communism means the government pays for their iPhone. Shooting them would just be too easy.
>>30618634
If guns got banned in America, the history and culture of guns would vanish. Kind of sad.
>>30624290
Non trap/tranny amazons exist, anon...
>>30621848
Marx was financed by jews, you retard. Communism is literally a ploy to centralize power in the banking system without any government or regular individuals to stop it.
>>30624360
Lies
>>30624372
2D is nice and all, but you can't romance them.
They aren't real, Anon.
>>30624547
I'm well aware of that, but the facts don't mean much of anything in the face of overwhelming, borderline psychotic paranoia.
>>30623130
>Everything loosely connected by "Capitalism"
Chile and Cambodia had very similar populations and GDP when Pol Pot and Pinochet came to power. Pol pot killed way more people than Pinochet, so there is the possibility that Pinochet may have saved more lives by killing the commies before they could seize power and kill even more people.
>>30619653
>>30619860
In other words, communism is doomed to failure. Get bent, Marx.
>>30624513
Are you fucking crazy? The gun owners sure as hell wouldn't fade quietly into the dark. If you paid attention on here, you'd see that there are plenty of people willing to fight and die if it comes to that.
>Come and take them, bootlicker.
>>30624726
ok i lied a little, amazon girls are great with head crushing legs but tiny slim hairless benis girls are great too.
>>30619653
>>30619860
>never heard of the dictatorship of the proletariat.
getaloadofthisguy.jpg
>>30618634
Pretty weak argument as 99% of the time any WW2 and earlier firearm has mo restrictions because they usually only have internal magazines, semi-automatic or bolt action, plus are more expensive than you garden variety "baby killer".
>>30618673
It takes 66% of congress and the states to amend the constitution. Considering support for background checks is around 80-90% and that hasn't even passed one house in congress I think you can sleep safe knowing nothing will happen regardless of who is president.
>>30624229
Problem is the 10th Amendment. So long as citizens can still own arms and so long as state legislation is within case law from the Federal Court system there is not that much to limit what states do, except for what the residents allow them to do.
>>30624513
Doubt it. Even in places with strict gun laws demilled guns are still common in museums and contrary to Ian's claim there are a very large number of knowledgeable gun historians around the world no matter where you go. Just because you don't get a source with detailed operation and cleaning details doesn't mean the history of it goes away.
>>30620348
Oh, come on, communists took over Russia, and within months, the leaders had declared themselves to be worthy of dictating to the peasants.
Communism is a utopia, a non-existent paradise that, by your standards, is killed from within before it ever can actually be born, with its skin worn by the dictators who proceed to call themselves communists and promote that ideology with violence.
"No true communist" indeed.
>>30625320
>Problem is the 10th Amendment. So long as citizens can still own arms and so long as state legislation is within case law from the Federal Court system there is not that much to limit what states do, except for what the residents allow them to do.
Not really, hence why states like Illinois and DC lost their court cases because they infringed on federal limitations like the 2nd amendment. But I see what you mean about case law.
However the supreme court hasn't made too many gun control rulings (except for the clause in Heller about some restrictions). So if the NRA controlled congress passed pro-gun rights legislation (and yes there is progun federal laws out there like the online ammo protection and no registries etc.) then those states are then caught infringing and that pretty much dooms every lawsuit they already have regarding their gun control.
Its the same way the South got buttfucked by civil rights. But potentially applied to liberals getting screwed now instead, and leading to people selling machine guns and grenade launchers in like time square or in front of feinstein's grave in like 20 years.
>>30620749
You seem to be under the impression that we are currently operating under free-market capitalism.
That was mortally wounded 80 years ago, and socialists/communists (who in practice rule as feudal lords) have been tearing pieces of its flesh away ever since.
The robber-barons of the 19th century had nothing on the feudal princes in government "service" today.
>>30623559
And how do you propose to make everyone economically "equal"? By assigning goods and services to them "each according to his needs"?
How do you determine the value of an apple to one person, vs. the equivalent value of a cup of apple cider to a different person? A free market provides a mechanism (price) by which these values may be aggregated and spread out among everyone participating in the market. Communism generally requires a person to make that determination... a person with power. And power corrupts...
Communism as you define it in child-like terms will only ever work *after* the "emergence of the New Soviet Man", a mutant, brainwashed, idealized person who will almost certainly never, ever actually exist.
Meanwhile, free markets worked pretty darn well under nothing more than basic, generic Judeo-Christian values. There were always those who would violate those values for wealth and power, but the US Constitution limited their ability to wield government against others, and a largely Protestant society that valued the individual tended to limit their ability to wield other powers against others.
Even the robber barons at the height of their power faced limitations, as the worst of their excesses were transmitted via the news to the public at large, who held weapons such as the boycott that could ruin even the greatest, most avaricious of them.
>>30623130
Your image is wrong. The point of the first i age was that EVERYtime communism has been attempted, it ended up horrific and hyperviolent, where as capitalism is usually successful, at least relative to everything else.
>>30623717
So, go try settling a piece of land and living solely on that. See if mother nature cares about the coercion you feel in being forced to work yourself to the bone just for a *chance* at surviving until next year's harvest.
That's the choice most workers faced during the Industrial Revolution. And millions of them voted with their feet, taking their chances with the robber barons over their chances with mother nature, which can be far crueler at times than any Stalin or Pol Pot.
>>30625726
>i age
*image
>>30623729
Are you saying that you have the same ability as a NBA forward?
Prove it.
People are not born equal in talent, or ambition. The only equality is that recognized by the religious--their equality in Judgement before the Divine.
>>30625320
That "support" tends to vanish quickly once you remove the meaningless gibberish from the bland polling questions and start asking people their opinions on specific measures.
80-90% is about as truthful as "95% of all scientists believe in global warming".
>>30625320
Demilled guns and museums aren't a rich culture of enthusiasts with hands-on experience and knowledge.
That's like saying because Call Of Duty exists, we'll always have military historians.
>>30623419
But they all claimed to be communist which is all that matters.
Communism was attempted and failed more than its fair share of times. Its a shit ideaology and can never possibly work because the human condition of greed will not allow absolute equals across the board. Maybe if you pulled your head out of your ass or worked in a factory once in your life that the people wants more than his neighbor, not to be equal but to surpass him is the human way.
>>30624898
>>30626369
I'd expect nothing less from the sons and daughters of fucking convicts. Americans will not go so easily.
>>30623551
IMO Ian hit the nail right on the fucking head in that video.
alright you fuckers lets donate.
Going to give 20.
Your turn you fucks, donated 25.
bump
man, I am glad I missed all the class cuckoldry in this thread by having A Real Life
let's restore some good feelings in the room, who is shooting something NFA this weekend?
I restored a cast iron pan tonight :-)
>>30628412
Really, the good parts are the start and the end of the thread.
So my good friend came down to californa from washington today to go shooting. we went to a indoor gun range, only to find out it was closed for police training, which was shitty. we just got burgers and beer instead. Hopefully go monday.
>>30628610
I fingered my woman on her parent's couch like we were teenagers again, so I know tfw blue balls
>mouth tastes like pussy still, even after brushing teeth
going TO california to shoot??
>>30626303
North Korea claims democracy as well, is democracy failed because of them?
>>30623887
"In its majestic equality, the law forbids rich and poor alike to sleep under bridges, beg in the streets and steal loaves of bread."
>>30624099
>>30625666
Devil trips confirm communism a fucking joke of a religion. Also why hasn't this piece of shit thread been deported to /Pol/?
>>30628880
....yes
>>30623574
Well, they kind of are. The concept of ownership is just something that our brains do and always have. It's to the point that we've isolated a chemical that inhibits that part of the brain from functioning and those dosed with it no longer recognize ownership of their own body. Their can be no more natural a right than that of ownership. All other rights, in fact, spring from it and when you remove it, you can make all the protestations about being anarcho-syndicalist this or libertarian-socialist (HAH!) that, but you cannot change the fact that you've cut the roots from the tree of liberty.
>>30629258
Where is this from? Guess why it's wrong.
>>30625666
Honestly I'm sick of people thinking that the only alterinative proposed by leftist ideology to capitalism is centralized state socialism. The issue isn't free markets vs a planned economy, it's a question of ownership of the means of production.
The constitution and liberal mechanisms of limiting power haven't done jack shit, the U.S. is not a democracy, it's an oligarchy. Studies show that whenever public opinion conflicts with the interests of the top 10% of the population the rich always get what they want, democracy only exists when the interests of the richest Americans aren't threatened. Furthermore corporations have grown to the point that they have GDPs higher than medium sized countries, they have used free trade deals to strip countries of their sovereignty and remove any obstacle to the accumulation of further wealth. They have undermined democracy through lobbying and campaign campaign contributions. Have free markets worked? Of course, but this isn't a question of evil capitalism, it's a question of what works better, and a system that equally distributes economic and political power (and I'm not an advocate of central planning so don't even bother bringing it up) will be more conducive of democracy and freedom. You talk about "robber barons at the height of their power" but the irony is that they were only reigned in through people using the state to control them.
>>30629282
What the fuck does he know? I doubt he's even rich, I doubt Margaritaville royalties give him that much cash
>>30624148
Still talking shit then, cunt.
>>30632906
>In 2008 he was ranked by Forbes as the richest person in the world with an estimated net worth of approximately US$62 billion.[126] In 2009, after donating billions of dollars to charity, Buffett was ranked as the second richest man in the United States with a net worth of US$37 billion[127][128] with only Bill Gates ranked higher than Buffett. His net worth had risen to $58.5 billion as of September 2013
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warren_Buffett
>>30625666
LOL holy shit defending the rich
look criticize communism but this is like when robber barons would fucking publish opeds about how there is a contradiction between labor and The Boss -- and there is! -- and how it was unfair
look, that's fine, the labor extracting class faces significant contention but the issue at hand is that it's a way better /deal/ to be at the top
it boils down the the louis cuck king joke about how it's aweome to be white, and to be a man. this is what the SJWs, everyone sane is reluctant to admit, get right: people face challenges even with a penis and light skin and don't have to apologize for those things, but would rather not give upi having them
fuck! and you guys think im some sort of wack job far leftist. i just fucking troll all of you the way i troll the tumblr assclowns who starting calling me a stalinist for not being as irrational as them and subscribing to feels over reals, being an irish citizen, ane resenting the _legitimately_ wealthy (not suburban home "owners" i.e. mortgage holders" like me)
>>30629282
>>30632906
He is literally the embodiment of the super wealthy capitalist.
>>30624121
>all statists are socialists, conservative politics never goes wrong!
And people say libruls are a bunch of stupid children.
>>30623110
>>30623130
>not posting the actual image because muh stupid political bullshit
You both suck
>>30623706
>Trying to enforce equality of outcomes when people naturally do not have equality of capability is impossible.
Thinking that it's not about equality of opportunity is the most retarded thing people ever do when it comes to this shit.
It's why we have public schools instead of some vouchers and some insane private-only school system, where only the rich would inevitably be able to afford quality education (ya know, exactly like it is now... except it would be intentional).
Equality of opportunity would mean that having inherited wealth wouldn't automatically grant you a million more opportunities in life than someone who doesn't.
I've no illusions as to a world where wealth doesn't grand privilege, but it doesn't need to be blatant or 'the way things are supposed to be'.
So fuck you and 'brave' stance against equality and the people demanding it. When a D student can get his daddy to buy his way into an ivy league school just by throwing enough money at them, that's pissing in the face of all that fair market competition and personal responsibility that conservatives like to talk so big about in these discussions.
>>30625743
>And millions of them voted with their feet, taking their chances with the robber barons over their chances with mother nature, which can be far crueler at times than any Stalin or Pol Pot.
Yes let's ignore all the times that people tried to organize for better treatment and conditions, and said robber barons hired thugs to beat them down and even murder them.
This shit happened right up into the 20's and 30's.
>>30635832
holy fuck what is that image even referencing?
like at this stage im legitimately trying to learn, because either I'm totally retarded or you are
>and I cannot tell which
but I am fairly certain it's not the most robust defence of finance capital
>>30623528
>My econ professor joked that commies aren't people because they reject property rights and, thus, the ideas of ownership that make us human.
Based econ professor.
>>30636119
ownership makes us human, tell it to like ... 19 out of 20 persons who ever lived
lmao
>>30624121
>Pinochet was a fucking socialist too. Hitler was a socialist.
jesus christ
