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You are currently reading a thread in /k/ - Weapons
What went wrong?
>>29433681
Nothing?
>>29433681
It was TOO good
nothing
>>29433681
>m4a1 with a 4x32
Literally nothing at all?
>>29433681
Caliber
>>29433681
It's good enough we'll be using it to the heat death of the universe. Nothing.
It's "modular" (read: unreliable) and will jam harder than a fucking rockstar when even the slightest dirt comes in.
In other words >america's finest
>>29433681
Front sight gas block and M203 cut barrels are detrimental for performance if you don't have one mounted.
>>29433749
Except that's provably wrong. AR > AK
>>29433749
The ar platform unreliability meme is unfounded. The only problem was with the original m16 because
>no chrome lining
>no cleaning kits
>wrong powder type
>inb4 "ar fanboy"
>>29433767
>cleaning kit
>literally
>"dirt won't jam it because here's a kit to clean out any dirt from it!"
Nigga in any AK you could pretty much pour concrete through the chamber and still reliably use it.
>>29433784
Please prove it i have had a yugo ak made by zastava brand new jam after being submerged in a creek and left to dry with the bolt open and it failed to cycle not saying ak's arnt reliable or that ar's are more reliable but it does happen
>>29433767
fucking this
>brand new platform
>in the fucking jungle
>getting shot at day in day out
>no time to clean
>used by grunts that spent the week prior flipping burgers
>>29433865
Why would you do that to your rifle?
>>29433876
I did it for the lulz
Great gun, wish my cunt did something to make a variant of it like the germans (aka : Hk416)
>>29433865
That's your fault then.
Any gun can fail at anytime
>>29433865
>5.56
there's your problem
>>29433920
Saying that an ak can run thru concrete better than a bath in the creek with no anomalies inside the receiver or chamber and left to dry is purely nonsense i mean seriously
Youtube FPSrussia
AA12 review and cooking with an AK
The AA is incredible fully submerged and then 20 rounds pumped through it firing with 1 hand to show how little recoil it has
The AK ....erry one knows AKs are made to fire under any conditions and can be field stripped by a child soldier
>>29433931
Point is? It was on the highest gas setting and using federal 55gr and still wouldnt cycle after the second round
>>29433955
Point is that you're firing a shitty caliber designed for a shitty rifle
>>29433948
Of course but my point is that any gun no matter the maker can fail or break at any time
>>29433964
If you say so
>>29433681
Here's your (You).
>>29433974
Agreed that is the most valid point
some fail more than others
i guess next point to argue would be cost of production
>>29433681
>What went wrong?
my parents decided to keep me
>chode-like barrel limits accuracy beyond 300m
>didn't have a fully-automatic function, and had to be redesigned into a different variant for the sole purpose of leeching more money from the government
>you have to be extremely autistic about cleaning fucking everything or else it jams
>fires little popcorn kernels as ammunition with barely any kind of power behind it
>fits all sorts of gizmos and other faggot shit that arms manufacturers can con the DoD with
>was a replacement that didn't improve on anything compared to its predecessor
it's not a horrible gun but seriously what the fuck
>>29434042
Commercial manufacturers doing what they do best. So this technically makes the M4 a meme gun then?
>>29434042
woah woah woah there buddy, you sure are certain of things.
1. I can hit a stationary man in the chest at 500m with the thing. You can too if your marksmanship is decent.
2. K but who cares
3. You don't have to fucking be autistic about cleaning it to keep it from fucking jamming, get the fuck out of here with your "I heard so" turds.
4. Those little kernels travel at a high enough velocity from a 14.5 to drop you with a single shot. If you got shot with it you would fucking drop. That's reality man
5. .........I'm pretty sure you aren't well versed with combat or even pretending to be in it
6. What the hell man I can see why you'd say that, but I can also see why you'd know for just as much of a fact that you are wrong.
I don't want to get into a point-counter-point with you but most of us are aware that much of what you said just isn't so.
It's not a horrible gun, and it's not stellar for ranged combat. But that's not its role or function in the military. It's a weapon system with a specific function, which can be used to operate way outside of that specific function, which makes it near perfect for a modern force.
>>29434252
>which can be used to operate way outside of that specific function, which makes it near perfect for a modern force.
Until it jams, which is does way more often than for example an AK. (plus it would have been cheaper to just import those from Russia)
>>29434268
>Can't hit shit with an AK
>At least it doesn't jam (untrue)
>>29434310
A guy that fought in Iraq told me he found one carried by an IED faggot that accidentally set his own explosive off. The thing was full of shit and literally torn in half but it still fired. Now you prove me the M4 doesn't jam as often as it did for me.
>protip: you can't
>>29434336
Was your rifle new, out of the box?
Was the previous owner ever instructed by his SNCO to clean their rifle until it shined?
Did you ever close the dust cover?
Do you like eating dicks?
>>29434336
>A guy that fought in Iraq told me he found one carried by an IED faggot that accidentally set his own explosive off. The thing was full of shit and literally torn in half but it still fired.
My dad works for nintendo
AK mud test
https://youtu.be/DX73uXs3xGU
AR mud test
https://youtu.be/YAneTFiz5WU
Quit perpetuating myth
>>29434357
>your rifle has to be new to not jam
>your rifle has to be in pristine condition to not jam
>your dust cover has to be closed to not jam even though it opens on the first shot
>you have to be gay for your rifle to not jam
>>29434388
>m-muh mud test by e-celeb renders 70 years of tests and actual use in conflicts obsolete!!
>they pour shit into the AK's gas ports, but only gently cake the AR's receiver
>>29434421
>
>>29434421
But it never jams, you can literally pour concrete into the action, amerifat.
>>29433681
literally putting lipstick on a pig
>>29433756
How is an A frame gas block detrimental for performance?
>>29434421
>>they pour shit into the AK's gas ports, but only gently cake the AR's receiver
that's because the AK's gas ports are open baka senpai.
>>29433784
Are you for real? Have you not seen there influx of videos in which people literally pour mud and dirt in the actions of rifles? AR out performed the AK every single time.
>>29433749
I've never fired an AR, the post
>>29434783
Its also mixed in with sour grapes as the anon is probably a yuropoor who cant own anything like an AR, and gets really pissed off over how many murricans own ARs instead his raifu.
1. Non-free floating handgaurds fucking with your POI.
2. Too thin of a barrel that begins stringing too quickly.
3. Barrel change requires unique tools compared to more modular designs like FN's SCAR or Sig's MCX.
2 would cost more money and weight. 3 wasn't something Stoner was probably worried about back in the 50s.
>>29434884
>unique tools
A barrel wrench and a vice. That's literally it. How often are you changing barrels where have a wrench is a specialized tool?
>>29434900
I need a torque wrench to change barrels on my SCAR
>>29433681
>what went wrong?
Your parents conceived you.
post yfw you realize America has the best service rifle in the world
>>29434900
>>29434915
I was under the mistaken impression that the SCAR did not require the vise and torque wrench as well.
>>29434972
>>29433784
https://youtu.be/YAneTFiz5WU
When will this meme die?
AK for reference
https://youtu.be/DX73uXs3xGU
>>29434973
No vise, just a torque wrench that is issued as part of the weapon. It is preset to 62 inch pounds.
>>29434972
it's so good that it has gotten thousands of guys killed senpai
>>29435078
How does that work without a vice then? Some chuck device similar to a drill press?
>>29433681
I can't believe nobody said this yet:
THREE
ROUND
FUCKING
BURST
It doesn't reset if you cut the burst short, it's less accurate than full auto, and it makes the trigger worse than on semi-full versions.
Why did the xm16e1 have all these problems but not a single complaint from the air force with their standard m16's? Did they know the secret of cleaning a weapon?
>>29433681
When it stopped being an M16.
>>29433767
>>29433872
It was worse than that.
The Generals (except Based LeMay of course) hated the M16 and they wanted it to fail so they would get their precious M-14's back after McNamara stopped production.
So they did everything in their power to botch the introduction of the new rifle.
>Didn't train soldiers to use the new rifle
>Didn't issue cleaning kits
>Didn't issue instruction manuals
>Switched out the ammunition powder without telling COLT
The only real fault in the original M16 was the lack of chrome. Everything else was because of malicious treatment of the weapon by Army leadership.
>>29435141
Isn't that being fixed now, though?
>>29435197
No, burst is stupid and unusable unless you're busting into a kill room or something. Even then, if you pull twice too quick..., I'd rather have a binary trigger.
>>29435197
Yeah, the Army is switching to the M4A1. Doesn't change the years and years of inferior 3rnd burst.
You'd think that full auto would be deemed the better solution for a professional army much sooner.
>>29435219
No, I mean, aren't the M4's being changed to be safe-semi-full instead of safe-semi-burst? I agree that burst is dumb.
>>29435228
>You'd think that full auto would be deemed the better solution for a professional army much sooner.
There are times that the idea is good, but the implementation is bad. The burst fire for the M16 is a case where both the idea and the implementation were bad.
>>29433681
Buffertube
>>29433749
I dropped my poorfag M&P15 in a nasty mix of sand and gravel and it still fired fine. The charging handle was a bit crunchy but it worked. AR-15's are pretty damn reliable.
>>29435239
You mean the M4A4 (I think)? Yeah...but only SpecOps (Includes Aircraft units) or higher get those, no grunts or mass ground units do.
>>29435188
>only fault is lack of chrome
>not that it needs an accelerator button because the bolt might or might not close
>>29435239
>M4
safe-semi-burst
>M4A1
safe-semi-auto
![8de[1].png](https://i.imgur.com/vwPy5dJ.png "8de[1].png")
>everyone in this thread
>>29433955
>NO TRUE SCOTSMAN
Fucking everytime with the AK apologists, there's always a reason it wasn't a legit ak and it boils down to: a true AK wouldn't jam
>>29434336
>my dad works at Nintendo!
>>29433865
>Century AK
>in 5.56
>using mags it wasn't designed for
>then left for a week
Wow, I wonder why it had issues
>>29433681
nothing its an excellent firearm
anyone that thinks other wise is an idiot
Chopped off too much barrel... Should have been 18" with a mid length gas and go back to 193...
>>29435141
three round burst works just fine.
>>29433681
The M4 is a great firearm that could be better with some simple additions.
>Battlelink minimalist stock
>remove the front sight, rails make it redundant
>get a free-floating 13 inch handguard
>remove burst and go for full-auto
>>29433681
I'll tell you what went right, it pisses off Yurotrash and Slavshits like none other.
>>29437277
I feel like that thing could be a real snag hazard in actual field operations
>>29435095
>i-i-it's g-gotten THOUSANDS of American troops k-killed before!!
>f-fucking ARs!!
AR-bashers have reached new heights of insanity
>>29437476
The stock I mean
>>29433948
Fuck off nofuns
>>29433681
According to Jim Sullivan, one of its designers, the flaws of the original AR-15 system were:
- too little spring room
- cartridge rim too thin
- buffer too light
- no chrome plating
- no gas adjustment
But none of these caused so much trouble as the Army's decision to use ball powder as opposed to IMR powder for which the AR-15 system was designed. This cost many GI's lives in Vietnam. The problem with ball powder is that it has a higher gas port pressure making the bolt move faster than it should which leads to failures to extract and faster erosion, specifically at the gas port and the locking lugs. This has been worked around by using a heavier buffer and adding a rubber plug inside the extractor spring. But of course a workaround is just a workaround, a dirty fix instead of a clean solution.
The problem with the M4 is that the shorter barrel necessitates moving the gas port further back which, again, leads to higher pressure and all the problems associated with it. This is in part accounted for by a smaller gas port. But the higher pressure leads to faster erosion making the original problem occur faster. Additionally, the shortening of the stock tube leaves less room for the buffer which had to be shortened to keep the stroke length of the bolt the same as in the M16. As a consequence the lower weight of the shorter buffer moving faster leads to the same extraction problems as before. So it's lost much of the potential of the workaround that was necessary in Vietnam. It's not as bad as back then but it's far away from being up to what a properly designed system could be in terms of reliability.
>>29437564
I kind feel like going to 14.5 inches was too far. The 5.56 needs good muzzle velocity to maintain lethality. I think it would have been best to keep the rifle-length gas system and go down to an 18-inch barrel.
I'm pretty sure when it comes to actual stoppage numbers because of malfunction, the AR is leagues worse than the AK.
Say what you want about dumping mud into receivers, I want a rifle that will fire each time I pull nthe trigger, reliably.
>>29433737
>Enviroment
>>29438241
>I want a rifle that will fire each time I pull the trigger, reliably.
The AR doesn't have any problem with that, though.
>>29433695
/thread
First post best post.
>>29438325
>>29438241
No rifle does that.
So guess what. Rack it and it works again. Magic.
>>29438429
>not knowing how burst fire works
>still getting paid to test weapons
Just fuck my tax dollars right up, Gov.
>>29433681
sexy as fuck, nothing at all wrong
>>29437682
Well, I was only talking about reliability issues since reliability is the most important aspect of a personal firearm.
As for lethality as a function of muzzle velocity as you seem to imply: that's a bit misleading. Long range shooting is largely an accuracy problem. But you can't train every guy to be a sniper or outfit him with a rifle that's suited for engagement ranges up to 800m without other serious impediments. The fragmentation effect of various 5.56mm rounds, which is so very important to their wound ballistics characteristics, ceases far earlier than 800m. So even longer barrels won't help much with that.
>>29438429
>Put an old beat-up M4 against brand new rifles
>It still does so well that the study concludes the different is statistically irrelevant.
>>29433784
/ARG/ plz this is just sad
>>29438679
What modern battlefield predominantly has infantry engaging at 800m?
>>29438770
Many "battlefields" in Afghanistan.
>>29437564
Jim Sullivan's improved AR is a crazy piece of kit:
>Open bolt full auto
>Ultimax style constant recoil
You can fire that thing one handed in full auto
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gOUKXIrDE0I
>>29438770
not him but that is more than regular.
>Afghanistan
>Modern
And weren't those units issued a number of battle rifles?
I think given the technology available when the m4 socom block 1/m4 mws, it's a damn good cost effective weapon. However, I am very excited for the m4a1+
>free float DD rail 12inch
>better barrel, trigger, flash hider
>ambi saftey.
Basically a block 2 with even more improvement
>>29433749
Flat untrue
>>29433756
The barrel cut and government profile is REALLY gay. I'll give you that.
>>29433749
>when even the slightest dirt comes in.
So like any other gun?
The AR is reliable because it is built to tight tolerances. That prevents dirt from getting into the rifle in the first place.
>>29438429
Isn't that still only a 1.47% stoppage rate?
>>29438770
In Afghanistan Taliban set up many ambushes by deliberately choosing engagement distances at which their old AKs and Enfields would be somewhat more effective than the standard 5.56mm weapons of ISAF (or so the guys on the receiving end felt). This lead to quite a discussion in the military about our weapons and doctrine. In particular one paper entitled something like "taking back the infantry half-kilometer" gained widespread attention, as our past procurement decisions following our doctrine were based on the assumption that something like 90% of all engagements would take place at less than 200m when in Afghanistan 50% took place at 500m or more.
The supposed lack of lethality together with the real lack of penetration against mud compounds also spawned the insufferable caliber discussion of the last decade or so. But as I said long range shooting is largely an accuracy problem, mostly due to wind drift. And while it's true that larger calibers are less susceptible to it, the impediments of a larger caliber aren't worth it and you can't train all average guys to have above average markmanship skills.
And the penetration problem with mud compounds can't be solved by 7.62mm. Not even by 12.7mm.
The M855A1 EPR is, for once, really a good answer by the procurement as it correctly identified many a grunt's complaints as myths or misattributions. And so it rectified only those problems which it could within the confines of the caliber and which were real problems. But this doesn't help against either mud compounds or engagements at 500m or more. All it does is improve so called barrier-blind properties, meaning being less influences by minor obstacles like car windshields, and being more consistent with regards to fragmentation.
>>29433955
more like stupid fags like you not knowing why the huge taper on the x39 round is beneficial you cum guzzling faggot as well as the oversized gas system
>>29438825
I know that video. And while I think it's an impressive feat of engineering, I don't think it's that much of a boon for increasing the number of hits in a combat environment, at least when going so far as he did with the Ultimax 100, which is sacrificing ROF for controllability. I wouldn't do that. But still, his patented system could be used to improve controllability without this sacrifice. This would still be an important controllability improvement, just not as big. But then again my thinking comes from German infantry doctrine, so I value ROF much higher.
More important than the controllability improvement in my opinion is the fact that this constant recoil system lowers the stresses which the weapon undegoes which allows for machine guns with considerably lower weight. And this makes it really interesting and valuable. So don't get me wrong. I don't want to take anything away from Sullivan's achievement. I just want to point out that its benefits are probably in another department than what people think.
>>29433681
Well, the umbilical got caught around OP's neck at birth.
>>29439285
Had a case like that once, it's a fucking nightmare
t. EMT
Nothing
You are just gay, OP
>>29439101
I'm just saying: why potentially make it a bigger issue by going towards a much shorter barrel? I'm not bashing the M4. The M4 is good. I just think it could be better with a longer barrel.
>>29439341
Sure, I agree. I stated the issues myself by pointing to Sullivan. But, again, these are reliability issues, not lethality issues. A longer barrel gives you a couple of dozen more feet at which fragmentation occurs. It's debatable if it's worth it as lethality is completely dominated by shot placement and penetration depth. The whole wound ballistics issue serves more to distract from what makes up weapons effectiveness than actually improving it because it's being constantly overemphasized.
>>29439101
>distances at which their old AKs and Enfields would be somewhat more effective than the standard 5.56mm weapons
But x39 shits the bucket WAY before 5.56, whoever wrote that information you're quoting is retarded, and you're retarded for posting it.
If you're the originator, you're double retarded.
Carbine gas
Listen, M4-skins will argue anything to say the AR is perfect, but any 5.56 with a barrel length under 20 in is bound to be substantially underpowered.
5.56 ball relies on fragmentation to kill, this becomes unreliable around 2700fps. Below that it's hit or miss. This velocity is achieved very quickly in a carbine, between 50m and 250m. This is no good when you're engaging a bad guy beyond that range.
For police, where you're not only engaging targets <100m but also using partial expansion or hollow points, this isn't a problem, but in military applications this is a bad combo.
>>29434421
>lying on the internet
For what purpose?
>>29437277
>>remove the front sight, rails make it redundant
die
>>29439743
>any 5.56 with a barrel length under 20 in is bound to be substantially underpowered.
I would agree, except that the Russians are using 5.45 in a 16.3 in barrel. So its the same thing all around.
>>29439743
>5.56 ball relies on fragmentation to kill
Debatable, but what if I am a normal person who isn't limited to FMJ rounds? Opens up possibilities for what I can use effectively, right?
>>29433865
Why you would intentionally do that to a rifle, for reasons other than to "test" it, I'll never know.
No shit, any weapon will rust the fuck up.
>>29435288
The Forward assist was a dumb feature the generals insisted on after they finally accepted that the M16 was here to stay. It really should be removed from the gun.
>>29440036
>t., someone who has only ever shot in a clean range environment
>>29439271
>But then again my thinking comes from German infantry doctrine, so I value ROF much higher.
Yeah, you should stop there then.
>>29440046
If your chamber is dirty, the last think you want to do is force a round in. That's a fast way to turn a minor, easy-to-fix problem into a major, hard-to-fix problem.
>>29440090
There are many other situations besides a dirty chamber where the bolt doesn't close all the way, jackass.
>>29440090
>this bullshit
Because the only way a round could fail to feed fully is a dirty chamber. I've had to use the FA on both of my ARs, mostly on bare steel case ammo, but sometimes with brass.
>>29436254
Except 5.56 aks are known as the least reliable of them.
>>29435166
>xm16e1
Didn't have those problems because they were using the correct powder for the ammo. You can thank McNamara for insisting they use ball powder instead of the stick powder it was designed for as it was cheaper to manufacture ball.
Ball powder had the following problems with the AR:
1. 1960's ball powder contained calcium carbonate which would clog gas tubes. This is how DI's bad reputation started when the guns would turn single shot
2. It had a much higher pressure curve at the gas port, leading to stuck cases due to extraction happening too soon, thus the "AR's jam" legacy
>>29440909
>You can thank McNamara for insisting they use ball powder instead of the stick powder it was designed for as it was cheaper to manufacture ball.
McNamara had nothing to do with that, it was the Army that decided to use their stores of WWII-surplus .30 powder for 5.56.
>>29440931
What In WIDE WIDE WORLD OF SPORTS are you two arguing about?
Stick powder is not IMR, stick powder IS something they tried, stick powder was far worse than even ball was.
WTF.
>>29439618
Just because it drops ridiculously after 250m does not mean you cant sight it in for 800.
>>29440965
IMR is an extruded powder, also known as stick powder.
>>29440965
>What In WIDE WIDE WORLD OF SPORTS are you two arguing about?
Historical fact?
http://www.smallarmsreview.com/display.article.cfm?idarticles=1735
>>29439743
> 5.56 ball relies on fragmentation to kill
Is this hyperbole? It puts a whole in your body and you bleed to death. By this reasoning, a 7.62 fmj that did not fragment (M80) wouldn't be very good either, yet all the old 'nam vets bitched about switching. Did M80 cause catastrophic bleeding?
>>29439743
>This is no good when you're engaging a bad guy beyond that range.
This theory is very easy to confirm. Stand at 300m and ask you shoot you with 5.56.
BTW AK-47 fragmentation range is literally zero (M43 ball).
>>29441083
You can sight in 5.56 weapons for 800m too. What is your point?
>>29441083
How's the side to side variation at that range?
>>29439743
>what is m855a1
>what is mk262 mod 0
>>29442101
Doesn't mater much in a prepared ambush where it can be accounted for.
>>29442154
Fucking what?
>>29437456
Yeah especially when they're forced to use it after raiding American equipment. Or you're a poor dirt farmer and the CIA just gave you a finicky piece of shit A2 without training on maintenance.
All in all its fine for a one way range but not a two way range. Ice picking malnourished sand niggers who are hopped up on Amphetamines makes for bad day because "two to the chest and one to the head" quickly becomes " oh shit alot to the everywhere and right fucking now!"
pic related: the answer.
>>29442944
Not subtle enough.
D-
>>29442944
>The M-16 is hard for your enemies to use if they steal it
That sounds like a bonus M80.
>>29439618
Way to take a quote out of context and suffer from selective perception on top of that.
>>29440089
The NIH syndrome is the pestilence of all AR threads...
>>29442441
You heard me.
>>29438905
>when even the slightest dirt comes in.
>So like any other gun?
What fucking shit rifles do you use? My RK was laying in sand while it rained for 9 hours, worked totally fine afterwards even though literally everything was covered in wet sand
>>29438905
read >>29434336
>>29434336
So the AK fired even though it was torn in half?
Prove it. Rip an AK in half and then fire it on video for us.
>>29446587
I'm not the fucking hulk, you do it.
