Why do people hate the European Comission?
Why are there still people that don't? They're openly antidemocratic and openly want to transfer the powers of national governments onto ... themselves.
>>61668788
>They're openly antidemocratic
They are appointed by the deomcratically elected heads of states
>and openly want to transfer the powers of national governments onto ... themselves.
And this is bad... how? A central executive can gouvern way more effectivly than a buch heads of states who are mostly corcerned with the benefits for their own country
>>61668788
This plus the commission takes too long to react to situations which makes disasters much worse than they have to be, like the economic collapse of 2008 and the refugee crisis. If we had full national sovereingity the governments of Europe could resolve crisises a lot better.
>>61668881
>They are appointed by the deomcratically elected heads of states
Remember when we made fun of the laughable democractic process in the US where they vote for people who then vote for the president? But when the EU does it it's okay?
>And this is bad... how?
Because the EU is neither experienced nor competent nor common good concerned enough to lead a populace of dozens of different cultures, ethnicities, histories and economic settings. Why shouldn't national governments act for the benefits of their own nations? That's what they've been elected for? Or do you really think anyone apart from us sissy Germans is retarded enough to elect a government that does more for other nations than it does for their own?
>>61668881
>They are appointed
Exactly.
>And this is bad... how?
Because they're appointed burecrauts.
>A central executive can gouvern way more effectivly than a buch heads of states who are mostly corcerned with the benefits for their own country
Ah, yes, why on earth would the people of a country support their countries interests? I don't care how "effectively" you can govern, I don't want your government in the first place. Get it?
>>61669019
>Remember when we made fun of the laughable democractic process in the US where they vote for people who then vote for the president? But when the EU does it it's okay?
But its the same in most EU countries. In Germany, you dont wote for Merkel, you vote for people who are gonna vote for Merkel then.
>Why shouldn't national governments act for the benefits of their own nations?
They should, thats what they were elected for. That's why we need a supernational institution that acts for the benefit of the whole Europe
Imagine if Germany didn't have a federal gouvernment, and were ruled by the head of German states instead. It would be a clusterfuck and would have no political power in Europe
>>61669139
>They are appointed
>Exactly.
So what? The gouvernment of Slovenia is also not directly elected by the people.
>I don't care how "effectively" you can govern, I don't want your government in the first place. Get it?
It is as much my government as it is yours, friend
>>61669142
Forcing the whole of Europe (or the EU for that matter) into a single governmental structure setting policies for 500 million people WILL drive Europe apart because no one will feel represented anymore. Even the cautious attempts by the EU to take over responsibilities from the national governments is already met with heavy resistance among the populace, and EU approval rates are probably lower than ever because its administrative power has grown so much for what used to be a loose trade union.
I never voted for them.
I don't. I don't even know what it is.
>>61669280
>500 million people
Why is that number so significant? USA has a single governmental structure for 340 million people, I see no reason why it cant work for 500 millions.
>what used to be a loose trade union
EU was never ment to be just a trade union. Futher integration was always the long term goal
>>61669325
you voted for your head of state, who appointed the members of the European Council.
You also voted for the European Pairlament who elected the President of European Council, Juncker
>>61669142
>But its the same in most EU countries. In Germany, you dont wote for Merkel, you vote for people who are gonna vote for Merkel then.
That's not true. Parties outline and make it clear who the head of the party is. You don't go vote for a party not knowing who they'll put forth.
>That's why we need a supernational institution that acts for the benefit of the whole Europe
Except when what you percieve "benefit of whole Europe" actually isn't the benefit of whole Europe. Furthermore I don't want you western cuckolds outvoting me and forcing some retarded self hating leftists in charge that will dictate our national policies.
No, I don't want your "refugees". Full stop. But because we're only 2 million strong we will easily be outvoted and be nothing more than a fringe group in a "European" government. So essentially we would be forced into policies dictated by foreigners.
Doesn't sound appealing to me nor does it sound like it's for the "benefit of whole Europe"
>>61669203
>So what? The gouvernment of Slovenia is also not directly elected by the people.
But that's literally wrong. Everyone can vote in the parliamentary elections for the party and candidate they like. Provided the party gets a certain % treshold they're then in the plarliament thus the government, either in a colition or opposition.
>It is as much my government as it is yours, friend
My government is the government of Slovenia, for better or for worse.
Now the worst part is that you're forcing these (retarded) changes without the approvale of the citizens.
>>61669392
>EU was never ment to be just a trade union. Futher integration was always the long term goal
Fuck off, we don't want it.
>>61669392
The US are a horrid clusterfuck of state governments that have much more power than the German states, and even then most Americans actually are glad that the American federal government mostly concerns itself with foreign politics instead of making life inside the US more miserable.
This is actually one of the strong points of the US, if your state politics don't fit your lifestyle or business you can just go to a different state and it'll be a completely different setting. If the federal government had more power the differences between the states would shrink and you'd have no options for living anymore.
>>61669439
But I didn't vote for my head of state. And Juncker is so obsessed with making the EU a power hungry kraken that he should be hung for the good of all of Europe.
>>61669454
>But that's literally wrong. Everyone can vote in the parliamentary elections for the party and candidate they like. Provided the party gets a certain % treshold they're then in the plarliament thus the government, either in a colition or opposition.
But you, as a slovenian citizen, dont get to appoint the ministers of your gouvernment. You don't even directly elect your Prime minister. So it is literally the same process as in the EU.
>Fuck off, we don't want it.
Then maybe you shouldn't have joined the EU? Slovenia has greatly profited from free movement of goods, services, capital and people, and I think it is rather egoistic of joining a club, enjoying its benefits and then blockading its futher development.
>Furthermore I don't want you western cuckolds outvoting me and forcing some retarded self hating leftists in charge that will dictate our national policies.
Could you please point out where European Comission has forced some "retarded self hating leftists shit" upon your country?
>>61669590
>But I didn't vote for my head of state.
Well, that's a problem with our democratic system, not the EUs.
But I am all for the European pairlament getting more power, so that they appoint the EU commission.
>>61669555
Nobody wants a centralized EU gouvernment. People like me want a federalized EU, where the member get as much autonomy as possible and only areas that affect the EU as whole (foreign policy, military etc) are lead by the EU gouvernment
>>61669729
How the fuck is a federalized EU supposed to work without a centralized EU government?
And how do you come to the conclusion that nobody wants a centralized EU government? The dickheads in Brussels are saying something completely different.
>>61669799
They want a federalized Europe
It would be more like Germany or USA and less like Russia or France
>>61669392
>EU was never ment to be just a trade union. Futher integration was always the long term goal
And that is exactly why the EU is cancer. If we had an EU that worked towards perserving the free movement and trade deals and looks out for the shared economic intrests of the EU members it things would be a lot better. But because of some postwar fantasy of a united Europe we now have an EU that struggles with national governments and the will of most Europeans for sovereignity and in this proces it became overtly bureaucratic and democratically questionable.
>>61668725
Juncker want openly to fill my country with third world invaders
>>61669884
>We decide on something, leave it lying around and wait and see what happens. If no one kicks up a fuss, because most people don't understand what has been decided, we continue step by step until there is no turning back.
>If it's a Yes, we will say 'on we go', and if it's a No we will say 'we continue'.
>Monetary policy is a serious issue. We should discuss this in secret [...] I am for secret, dark debates.
>There can be no democratic choice against the European treaties.
t. Juncker
If the EU Commission writes the laws then who approves them and who interprets them?
>>61669976
>And that is exactly why the EU is cancer. If we had an EU that worked towards perserving the free movement and trade deals and looks out for the shared economic intrests of the EU members it things would be a lot better.
How would it look out for the shared economic interests of the EU members if it has no real power? It would be neither able to prevent big EU countries from bullying the small ones, nor prevent foreign powers from dividing and manipulation EU countries.
>>61669593
>But you, as a slovenian citizen, dont get to appoint the ministers of your gouvernment.
No, I do not, but they're appointed from the parties that got the most votes. IE. my vote decides on the composition of both the parliament and its ministers.
In the EU case I vote for my government, then the PM (that never had a majority in the parliament, ever) appoints someone to a position and that person then once again appoints someone as the president. And then these people are supposed to represent me lmao.
Not even remotely comparable.
>Then maybe you shouldn't have joined the EU?
Aha, except nowhere said "when you sign up agree to gradually give up all your sovereignity to a 3rd paty institution"
>and then blockading its futher development.
We're not blockading its further development. Because we don't precieve it as a development. You're also pretending that this club is some higher power that has nothing to do with us or any other member. We ARE the club you speak of. If the club wants to make new rules it HAS to consult us and all the other club members and when the club members say "no go fuck yourself" you can, well, go fuck yourself.
Instead you pretend we somehow owe this club something and have to go along with it at the cost of both our nationhood and sovereignity. Fuck you, we left a shitty federation not 25 years ago.
>Could you please point out where European Comission has forced some "retarded self hating leftists shit" upon your country?
>has
>HAS
It can't because it's not my government, yet. Provided it replaces the national governments then it WILL because even the so-called right or centrist parties in the west are fucking self hating cuckolds like Merkel who invites millions of foreigners into Europe and even disregard its own rules they agreed upon.
>>61670012
Do you have a source on that claim?
>>61670076
By providing a neutral discussion space for nations to voluntarily negotiate trade deals without forcing anyone to do anything. It used to be an open forum, not a commanding room.
>>61670033
I am not really sure what you are talking about.
European treaties are voted democratically and are renegotiated if some countries disagree with them
>>61670175
Not if Juncker had his way, that backstabbing cunt. I didn't make up anything or exaggerate, those were all things he actually said.
>>61669019
That's literally what they do in America.
Friendly reminder that in Europe you vote for a party with a preselected candidate of their choice, not for a person. Merkel is literally as undemocratically elected as Juncker.
>>61668725
Probably because they are cucks. I mean apart of sanctioning countries for breaching regulations (except Germany ofc, Germany has a free pass for breaching regulations whenever they want) what else do they do? what can they do? They're powerless cucks. They literally have no leadership authority.
Look at the Brexit. The EU comission literally has no authority on making decissions and acting on it one way or the other. They'll do whateverthe EU Council decides to do. Or in practical terms, whatever Merkel and Hollande want them to do.
>>61670113
no he doesnt
>>61670105
>In the EU case I vote for my government, then the PM (that never had a majority in the parliament, ever) appoints someone to a position and that person then once again appoints someone as the president. And then these people are supposed to represent me lmao.
I am all for EU Pairlament gaining more power, so it can appoint the EU comission directly. This would shorten the way from the vote of people to the appointed comissionair.
>Aha, except nowhere said "when you sign up agree to gradually give up all your sovereignity to a 3rd paty institution"
EU was never meant as just a trade union. Especially not at the point where Slovenia joined.
>Instead you pretend we somehow owe this club something and have to go along with it at the cost of both our nationhood and sovereignity.
So you feel no gratitude towards the EU, and how it improved the standard of living in your country? How it made more wealthy countries, like Germany, invest millions into Slovenia?
>It can't because it's not my government, yet. Provided it replaces the national governments then it WILL because even the so-called right or centrist parties in the west are fucking self hating cuckolds like Merkel who invites millions of foreigners into Europe and even disregard its own rules they agreed upon.
Merkel is not an EU official. The refugee crisis was the case of a member state (Germany) forcing its will onto other states. With a stronger EU gouvernment, it wouldnt have happend
>>61670113
Yes
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3629991/Europe-reveals-plan-deal-migration-crisis-INCREASE-limits-legal-immigration-Africa.html
>>61670157
And how would this neutral discussion space protect itself from foreign manipulation?
What would prevent countries like USA or China offer benefits to certain EU states to weaken the EU as whole?
>>61670220
Posting comments out of context is intellectually dishonest
>>61670359
I don't think an UK tabloid that is activly anti-EU is a reliable source
>>61670263
>mu I'm a champagne socialist and I like diversity
Commit suicidde already, there are proof all over the internet, if you are dumb enough to not being able to find it then it only mean you suffer from severe retardation.
Here is proof
>>61670359
Here is proof
http://www.breitbart.com/london/2016/06/08/ec-invites-african-migrants-blue-card/
Here is proof
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/nri/visa-and-immigration/new-european-commission-immigration-plan-likely-to-make-eu-more-attractive-for-indians/articleshow/52654856.cms
And finally the whole shilling for welcoming the illegals is the ultimate proof.
Kill yourself dumb fuck, you are cancer then get rid of yourself
>>61670359
>le daily mail
>>61670503
>daily mail and breitbart
nice proof you got there family
>>61670076
I was thinking of stuff like installing a court of Justice for legal disputes involving EU treaties, a watchdog for economic risks in (potential) member countries, a central bank that can minimize the fallout is shit goes down anyway and a EU border control to protect the survival of free movement within the EU.
I know the EU does stuff like that but I prefer a union that doesn't see these institutions as a stepping stone to total political domination.
>>61670583
many people on /int/ would see it as a loss of sovereignty and oppose those propositions.
>>61670458
This shit was reported in french medias too...
>>61670345
>I am all for EU Pairlament gaining more power, so it can appoint the EU comission directly. This would shorten the way from the vote of people to the appointed comissionair.
Problem is then that the further centralization and erosion of national sovereignity will stop so it will never be allowed. The parliament is a necessery evil and is kept as irrelevant as possible.
>EU was never meant as just a trade union. Especially not at the point where Slovenia joined.
I don't care what some burecratus behind closed doors decided it was going to be, we don't want part of it. We can decide for oruselves.
>So you feel no gratitude towards the EU
No, why should I? You're acting like the EU allowing us to join was some act of benevolance and not self interest. Markets to export too, cheap labour to use and educated (educated with slovene tax dollars) cadres for German companies (brain drain). Not to mention the devaluation of € and consequently making german exports more competitive outside the EU.
>and how it improved the standard of living in your country? How it made more wealthy countries, like Germany, invest millions into Slovenia
Our standards of living were improving troughout the 90's and early 2000's in fact the worst period was druing the EU and the 2008 recession. Kys. And again, you're pretending "investments" are somehow "donations". If a german fuck buys a local company it doesn't do so becuase he wants to help, he does so he can make a profit and often enough that profit is syphoned out of the country.
>Merkel is not an EU official
Yet if the EU was the supreme government people like Merkel would get elected as those are the politicians the west votes for.
>With a stronger EU gouvernment, it wouldnt have happend
With a stronger EU government those French, German, etc officials would be running the EU. Not only it WOULD happen it would happen much faster and these refugees would be forcefully relocated to other EU states to "share the burdain".
>>61670725
in french tabloids, you mean?
God I'm thankful I'm not part of this shitshow
>>61670525
>>61670567
Because what they said is wrong...
>>61668725
"democracy is a kingless regime... with a thousand kings" - Benito Mussolini
>>61670769
>I don't care what some burecratus behind closed doors decided it was going to be, we don't want part of it. We can decide for oruselves.
Then why did you join the EU? It's not like the plan of futher EU integration was kept secret from you.
>No, why should I? You're acting like the EU allowing us to join was some act of benevolance and not self interest.
It will probably benefit both sides in the long term. But it the short term, it was a huge money drain for the people of Western Europe. One would think you could appreciate that some of the German tax payers money was invested in your country.
>Yet if the EU was the supreme government people like Merkel would get elected as those are the politicians the west votes for.
>Yet if the EU was the supreme government people like Merkel would get elected as those are the politicians the west votes for.
As it is right now, Germany and France pretty much rule the EU. And you dont get a chance to democratically elect our leaders. With a common EU gouvernment, people of Slovenia would have a chance to participate in the election of said gouvernment, and prevent it from going to leftists and pro refugee.
>>61670567
Click on any of the sources and it'll lead you to the websites of the European Commission and Juncker.
http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_IP-16-2041_en.htm
>The new proposal establishes a single EU-wide scheme
>It lowers the salary threshold
>additional highly skilled workers coming to the EU to take up jobs
In other words flood the EU with low wage third worlders. Gas the damn monster already.
>>61670771
Not even, Atlantico isn't quite a tabloid... It's more about a website shilling for Nato and EU
>>61670933
it is misleading at best and plain lying at worst
I don't understand how you can trust tabloids in your political decision making
>>61670976
How are highly skilled workers from outside the EU connected to the refugees?
>>61671027
>Being such an idiot
"
A new policy on legal migration
Keep Europe an attractive destination for migrants in a time of demographic decline, through actions such as reviewing the Blue Card scheme, re-prioritising integration policies, and making migration policy work better for countries of origin, for example by easing remittances."
This BS is found on the EU commission website
https://ec.europa.eu/priorities/migration_en
It's litterally Juncker agenda to allow more immigrants in.
>>61671058
>Juncker want openly to fill my country with third world invaders
This was the original claim. It doesn't speak of refugees, only of third worlders. Therefore the Frenchman is correct in his claim.
Also, what fucking difference does it make whether third world low wagers are refugees or not, they'll have a negative impact either way.
>>61671058
The same reasons why Merkel allowed 1 million shitskins in Germoney, it's in their ideology to allow more immigration.
>>61671132
>Reducing the incentives for irregular migration
>Saving lives and securing external borders
>A strong common asylum policy
Can you please elaborate which of those points you would consider as
>Juncker want openly to fill my country with third world invaders
>>61671242
>Reducing the incentives for irregular migration
The EU idea of reducing the incentives for irregular migration is to increase the incentives for "regular" migration.
>>61671175
And since then do we consider legal migrants "invaders"?
>Also, what fucking difference does it make whether third world low wagers are refugees or not, they'll have a negative impact either way.
The difference is that legal migrants are highly educated, contribute to GDP and pay taxes.
While refugees are a net drain to the society.
>>61671276
>>61671242
Or plainly turning former irregular migration into regular migration, changing the laws
>>61671242
For Juncker saving lives and reduicing the incentives for irregular immigration is about letting more people in and not keeping them out.
>>61668788
This 2bh
>>61666666
>>61671300
>>61671317
I am gonna need some sources to back up those claims.
>>61671297
"And since then do we consider legal migrants "invaders"?"
Since we don't want to see Europe being filled with shitskins.
>The difference is that legal migrants are highly educated, contribute to GDP and pay taxes.
No fuck given, third world immigration need to stop
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cara alive numbr one #1 in england ….fuck the germany ,..FUCKk ashol euros no good i spit in the mouth eye of ur flag and federation. cara aliv and real strong wizard kill all the euro farm aminal with model magic now we the england rule .ape of the zoo chancellor angla merkel fukc the great satan and lay egg this egg hatch and germany wa;s born. stupid baby form the eggn give bak our clay we will crush u lik a skull of pig. england greattst countrey
>>61670963
>Then why did you join the EU?
We joined and economic union, not voted to become the United states of Europe
>It's not like the plan of futher EU integration was kept secret from you
Yes, it was, as it still is.
>But it the short term, it was a huge money drain for the people of Western Europe
Your fucking problem innit? Let's just ignore the billions of tax € we're spending to educate people that leave the country to work in Germany or in western Europe in general. Meaning you get educated workers for free while we get the bill.
>One would think you could appreciate that some of the German tax payers money was invested in your country.
I won't appreciate shit lad, especially not from a country that 70 years ago invaded us, fucked up so much shit that it eventually led to communists in power which is the main reason we are economically worse of in the first place.
>As it is right now, Germany and France pretty much rule the EU. And you dont get a chance to democratically elect our leaders.
Oh, but we have the Veto. You now realize we spent a year blocking Croatian ascension over some bullshit territorial dispute on sea.
>ith a common EU gouvernment, people of Slovenia would have a chance to participate in the election of said gouvernment
And have practically ZERO impact on it. In short our participation would be worth jack shit and if every slovene in the EU decided to vote for Mr X, Mr X would not be elected (in fact Mr X wouldn't even make it in the goverment as there's not enough Slovenes to reach the potential % threshold) and we would be ran by whoever France, Germany, Italy, Spain, etc elected. And guess what, I don't want the people who elected Merkel, Holland and Berlusconi to elect the people that will in turn govern me.
But let's stop and think for a second how retarded your proposition is. You could make literally the same argument for Slovenia being annexed to Germany-that way we'll have a word in german elections innit.
>>61668725
Mostly because they don't know how it, or EU, or politics in general work, as a lot of replies ITT illustrate.
Some also hate it because it busts their cartels.
As for muh national interest, that's just childish and petty whining of ignorant hicks that were told that their "country" has "interest" that are somehow threatened by "those evil bureaucrats in Brussels" but would be hard pressed to say what exactly those interests are and how are they better served by having more tools to wage a trade war with their neighbors to benefit of everyone else.
>>61671384
That might be very well your opinion, but I don't think it is shared by a majority of your countrymen.
In fact, I think there is no major French party that wants to reduce the amount of "shitskins" in your country
>>61668725
>Foreigners lobbyist bitches appointed to rule my country
Gee, I wonder,
I rather prefer the crooks to be french and elected nationally rather than dutch, germans and all other stupid nationalities that should deal with their ass countries instead of trying to manage ours
>>61671351
why are we accepting """""syrian""""" """""refugees""""" en mass if it's """"""illegal""""""?
>>61671297
>The difference is that legal migrants are highly educated, contribute to GDP and pay taxes.
Ahahahaha, tell that to all the turkshits and other roaches that came throughout the decades, brought their entire clans with them and started collecting welfare as soon as they got unemployed. People with a migrant background make up 20% of residents in Germany (not going to call them Germans), but 35% of unemployed people, and in Berlin 50% of Turks are unemployed and 75% of them haven't graduated school.
>>61671443
>We joined and economic union, not voted to become the United states of Europe
Then you joined something EU was never supposed to be, and it clearly wasnt just a trade union any more at the point of you joining it. So I would same the blame is on you on that one.
>Your fucking problem innit? Let's just ignore the billions of tax € we're spending to educate people that leave the country to work in Germany or in western Europe in general. Meaning you get educated workers for free while we get the bill.
And do you think you would benefit more from those people beeing unemployed in Slovenia? Or mabye its better when they work in Germany, while sending money back and gaining experience so they are able to work in Slovenia eventually?
>Oh, but we have the Veto. You now realize we spent a year blocking Croatian ascension over some bullshit territorial dispute on sea.
You have a veto but it is not very hard for big countries like Germany to pressure you into doing their biddings.
>And have practically ZERO impact on it. In short our participation would be worth jack shit and if every slovene in the EU decided to vote for Mr X, Mr X would not be elected (in fact Mr X wouldn't even make it in the goverment as there's not enough Slovenes to reach the potential % threshold) and we would be ran by whoever France, Germany, Italy, Spain, etc elected.
Well isn't that only fair? There are much more Germans than there are Slovenian people, it would be not very democratic if both groups would have euqal voting power. Also, you seem to forget that there a lot of Eastern European countries that share Slovenian views on immigration and refugees.
>You could make literally the same argument for Slovenia being annexed to Germany-that way we'll have a word in german elections innit.
I could, but I think it is preferebale for Slovenians to be in a federal union where they can keep their identity and culture, rather than to be annexed by Germany
>>61670769
The EU Comission boss is already elected by the countries leaders. It wouldn't matter much in practical terms if it's elected by the Parliament instead, as the Parliament is a reflection of the political composition of EU countries. It'd be like saying "I don't want Merkel and Hollande and etc to appoint the EU Comissair, I want the PPE and the Socialist Party to have that power". Oh wow, what a great difference.
However I think the EU Comissair should be elected by the people, american style, and the EU should have more decission making and executive powers invested on it, and be accountable to the EU Parliament.
Because nowadays... I mean look at Federica Mogherini f.i, EU Foreign Affairs Commisaire, what actual power does she have in European Foreign Policy? Nothing. Absolutely nothing.
>>61671467
LOL idiot spotted
Sarkozy is saying all the time that we need to reduce african immigration...
The FN is often talking about stoping population replacement.
You are a fucking moron if you think that the people want , each time there are talks about immigration people say they want to stop immigration beacuse there are too many foreigners and by foreigners they mean the blacks and arabs they see in the streets
>>61671505
Because of your laws and because Hollande wants so.
Certanly not because EU laws
>>61671666
>You have a veto but it is not very hard for big countries like Germany to pressure you into doing their biddings.
Great way of increasing trust in the EU among smaller members of course. HEY, JOIN OUR UNION, WE WILL BULLY YOU UNTIL WE GET OUR WAY.
>>61671470
>I rather prefer the crooks to be from Lyon and elected locally rather than from Paris, Toulouse and all other stupid cities that should deal with their ass regions instead of trying to manage ours
Oh look. Simple scaling reveal that your argument is arbitrary bullshit.
>>61671506
Turkish guest workers were low qualified and ment for manual labours. They were never meant to stay and they were pressured upon us by USA in the first place.
You can't really compare them to academics from third countries
>>61671505
Let's make it a "Time for constructive discussion" episode.
What exactly would you do with, say, 1.000.000 people that have come to your country because someone failed to stop them at border (more on that later) given that you have limited amount of detention facilities, limited amount of personnel, that keeping them in detention costs you money and that you are not allowed by law to deport them if they insist that they'd be persecuted in whatever shithole they came from?
Furthermore how are you going to get those responsible for guarding the borders to limit amount of people crossing those borders given that they have virtually no incentive to do so: after all, those migrants don't want to stay near the borders.
>>61671815
>academics from third countries
>>61671815
Are those the African academics that studies have shown to be less qualified than German gymnasium graduates?
>>61668725
Gee, I don't know Merkel. Ever been among the non-elite?
>>61671735
but do they say "we need to throw out all the shitskins?" I think not. And I think your opinion is rather politically uncorrect in France
>>61671773
haha, Germany forced Slovenia to join the EU?
As far as I remember, all the eastern european countries were begging to join the Union
>>61671882
Politically incorrect doesn't make it factually incorrect. If our national governments and the EU want to worsen our life quality against all facts they have to be stopped, not supported.
>>61671763
Read my flag
I'm Switzerland
We are accepting """"syrian"""" """""refugees""""" ltierally because the EU is forcing us to, through economic leverage
>>61671823
deport them. Switzerland is small, 1 million people is 1/7 of our population. And I'll be clear, I would say deport them even if it were 1 million german teachers and surgeons and rocket scientists. You have to take into consideration the demographic shock value
>>61671882
Nope, this is the kind of shit I'm talking with my neighbours...
M8 the people know there is a problem here and they don't want third world immigrants no matter who they are, just because you are an upper class idiot with no likn whatsoever with reality doesn't mean the working class is stupid enough to buy this shit.
You want diversity ? Fuck off to Africa
>>61671918
Bullshit, half of eastern Europe would still fail the EU joining standards if it hadn't been for Merkel's east expansion obsession and subsequent ignoring of standards. If there's one thing Merkel can do, it's ignoring things to push her agenda.
>>61671982
There is a difference between saying "I dont want radical muslims and people who promote third world culture" and "brown people are yucky"
>>61671948
You see, deporting german doctors would be easy.
Where will you deport """syrian""" """refugees""" though?
Pretty sure the deal that prevents you from doing so was even signed in your country.
>EU is forcing us to
So much for sovereignty and independence.
>>61672051
Can i say both?
>>61671666
>Then you joined something EU was never supposed to be,
Top kek.
>And do you think you would benefit more from those people beeing unemployed in Slovenia?
They're not unemployed, they just get paid 3 times as much in Germany. The unemployed ones are the uneducated ones or with meme degrees. There's also no reason for them to come back as nothing is stopping them from staying in Germany and making bank.
>You have a veto but it is not very hard for big countries like Germany to pressure you into doing their biddings.
Better just straight up give it away right? Germany did pressure us and it was one of the main reasons the block was removed, however this way we reached a compromise that was suitable to all three parties and essentially got what we wanted from the start-an arbitrage in court.
The thing is, you can pressure us and even achieve what you wanted to, but you can't circumvent the slovene population that will be pissed of becuase of this pressuring and forcing the politicians to not back down as backing down means political suicide. Not only that but by such pressuring you cause resentment among the population.
>Well isn't that only fair? There are much more Germans than there are Slovenian people, it would be not very democratic if both groups would have euqal voting power.
And which is why we DO NOT WANT this bullshit. No, it would not be fair either, it's not fair that some Germans decide on Slovenian matters because they're more numerous. That's why we don't like centralization and that's why we wanted our own nation state for the past hundreds of years. Like I said, we barely left a shitty federation 25 years ago and it wasn't to jump into a new shitty federation.
>Also, you seem to forget that there a lot of Eastern European countries that share Slovenian views on immigration and refugees.
So what? They can change their minds tomorrow.
>>61672051
Not on here it's not. Welcome to /int/ where every discussion can be solved by calling eachother cucks and call it a day.
>>61671982
>just because you are an upper class idiot with no likn whatsoever with reality doesn't mean the working class is stupid enough to buy this shit.
But then why would working class have a link either? You're saying the migrants are all unemployed, so clearly then they aren't taking your jobs...
>>61671868
I don't think companies would employ third world immigrants if they are worse than the local academics
>>61671987
Evil Merkel, she made Slowenia join in 2004, one year before she even became chancellor
Why do Euros want to live with third worlders so much
I live with them and it sucks
>>61671666
>Well isn't that only fair? There are much more Germans than there are Slovenian people, it would be not very democratic if both groups would have euqal voting power.
The point is they shouldn't be in the same union in the first place because they don't have the same views on how their countries should be run. In the American context federalisation makes sense because the inhabitants of Wyoming are culturally similar (arguably identical) to those of California or New York. So even though their vote would be insignificant in comparison, they still share more or less the same interests.
If Germany wants to inundate it's already crowded space with millions of foreigners every year then all power to them, but other countries should not be forced to shoulder the same responsibility.
>>61672150
Pro-tip: we don't.
>>61672193
This German guy sure does
>>61671805
Except that Lyon never tried to invade Toulouse multiple times, unlike Germans did with us.
>>61672090
>And which is why we DO NOT WANT this bullshit. No, it would not be fair either, it's not fair that some Germans decide on Slovenian matters because they're more numerous. That's why we don't like centralization and that's why we wanted our own nation state for the past hundreds of years. Like I said, we barely left a shitty federation 25 years ago and it wasn't to jump into a new shitty federation.
Let me be clear. The way our world works, big countries will always dominate small countries.
It is just a sad reality of our world, nothing we can change about that.
For a small country like Slovenia, independance is not really a realistic option. You can either become part of a bigger country, where you get a vote and democratic represenation.
Or you can become a vassal state of a foreign power, Russia for example. In this case, you will get no democratic representation
>>61672078
>EU is forcing us to
>So much for sovereignty and independence.
We voted against this. It will take place by february 2017. Until then, we're still forced to
>You see, deporting german doctors would be easy.
Where will you deport """syrian""" """refugees""" though?
Pretty sure the deal that prevents you from doing so was even signed in your country.
And if half the world goes to war against the other half of the world and in turn we get 4 billion people knocking at our door asking for asylum, are we supposed to keep accepting everyone because the rules say so? Situations change, laws (should) change accordingly
>>61672209
Please disregard Merkel. EU hotshots don't have to suffer the cancer they enforce on all of us.
>>61669439
The Dutch ministers are unelected.
So you have unelected politicians picking unelected politicians.
>>61672078
The thing is that this deal can be easly denonced and made irrelevant... Technically nothing force a country to accept thins it don't want.
The so called refugees sould have been kept at bay before they came, now they simply need to be deported from the fuck they came, if they don't want to say from what country they come from we can simply use the israeli method aka letting them rotting in jail with shitty food and wait until they beg us to bring them back from the shithole they came.
After all we are dealing with criminal trying to break our laws.
>>61672051
It's not I don't want radical muslims, it's more like I don't want muslims. There is a slight difference m8, people are fed up with diversity.
You really think any normal personn would stay in a full arab neighbourghood ?
When I say that people say they don't want more foreigners to come( aka more africans) they mean it, and they mean it litterally.
>>61672180
America has also different cultures (yankees and dixies), they even fought a civil war over it.
And imagine if America would have been split into two different countries. They would never have the same amount of influence like they do now
>>61672150
Because some of us, bless their souls, think they can make first worlders out of them if they take them out of the third world, and are not at all concerned that they might turn our first world into third world, either directly through populating it, or indirectly by having our social fabric torn by new tensions and making our society revert to third world standards.
>>61672275
well then i guess its up to Netherlands to fix it, isn't it?
>>61672279
Then you are a nazi. Fair enough, but i doubt most Frenchmen agree with your political views
>>61671948
>We are accepting """"syrian"""" """""refugees""""" ltierally because the EU is forcing us to, through economic leverage
Source? I thought Swiss took in refugees by order of its own government, and took all their valuable possessions to make them pay for their stay.
>>61672238
Riiiiight. All the current regions of France have always been unified and have never waged war against each other. Because the Dark Ages through the Renaissance never really happened.
>>61672328
Exactly. That's why Wilders who wants a nexit is leading in the polls.
>>61672328
>Then you are a nazi.
Well done, Jens.
>>61672317
>think they can make first worlders out of them if they take them out of the third world
For what reason, why dont you just give money to third world countries then
So you wouldn't mind a north american federation with mexicand and canadians having a say on your laws ?
>>61672285
Europe fought a bloody war for 3 decades on how to believe in god, and this faggot thinks we can all hold hands and be one big family. Fuck off EU shill.
>>61672328
You can't fight the political elite, unless you're some other political elite. That's how it works nowadays. As a zealous EU propagandist you should be aware of that.
>>61672391
i dont see how its an insult to call somebody who dislikes brown people on principle a nazi.
>>61672121
Simple, each time my parents go to fill papers in administrations they see a shitload of niggers waiting for benefits...
Also each time one of them get a job it's at the expense of a true french worker. The number of jobs right now is the same as fucking 10 years ago, meanwhile the working population grew thank to immigration and at the same time the joblessness rate got up...
The working class see your beloved gimmegrants all the fucking day, it's not like they have a token nigger friend from they social group while living in an all upper class area with non foreigners.
>>61672428
>You can't fight the political elite, unless you're some other political elite.
Political elite wanted ACTA and yet peoples protest prevented it
Political elite wants TTIP and it looks like peoples protest will prevent it.
You can fight political elite alright if you get your ass up
European Union have to be imperialistic and conquer the world to make Europe great again (just kidding)
>>61672417
I"ll take "WHAT IS NAFTA" for 500, Alex!
>2017
>Wilders gets elected
>nexit happens
>europe is kill
ayyy
>>61672259
>And if half the world goes to war against the other half of the world and in turn we get 4 billion people knocking at our door asking for asylum, are we supposed to keep accepting everyone because the rules say so? Situations change, laws (should) change accordingly
>>61672279
>The thing is that this deal can be easly denonced and made irrelevant... Technically nothing force a country to accept thins it don't want.
Now this is an interesting idea. And probably one that will come to pass if the things continue to deteriorate.
The question is, what the new arrangement will be, and whether we'll like the consequences of it. Whether by attempt to deal with one problem a new one, possibly much worse, won't be created.
I'd like to see the criminal scum like the moroccan/afghan/syrian/whatever rapists dealt with accordingly, but I'm not thrilled about where kneejerk hysteria of the football hooligans could take things.
>>61672150
I think it's mainly a noisy minority pushing for it, however they dominate mainstream and social media because all the major internet corporations are actively censoring anti migrant rhetoric.
I think the large majority of people just want to continue living in peace and are fed up with being called racist because of this.
This is why so-called Far Right parties are rising all across Europe, because they are the only parties willing to discuss the issues of mass migration.
Take the recent Austrian elections, it was almost a 50/50 split between a far left Greens candidate and a far right anti immigration candidate, the mainstream parties were nowhere to be seen. This can be seen in almost all major European countries at the moment.
This shows people's views are polarising further and further apart to the extreme ends of the spectrum, and social alienation is increasing. Which to anyone who studied 20th century European history should sound unsettlingly familiar.
>>61672251
The sad reality is that YOU are the small country and that YOU are dominated by the US and that YOU need US in order to be a "big" country.
And no, we don't need to be a part of a big country, we don't need your "democracy" and you wont scare us with the big bad russians-save that for the Poles, Czechs, Balts etc.
>>61672446
>>61672328
Then I'm a nazi, no fuck given about it, at the same time you proved to be a spinless idiot with no fucking brain.
And you are right, most frenchmen don't agree with, ALL frenchmen with a brain agree with me, only immigrants and stupid bourgeois fuck like you will ever disagree with me.
You know what leftist scum ? Even in Germany people like you are despised by the common folk.
Please die
>>61672525
You're pretending that the people's wishes will be honored, which is a big fucking joke. You'd know that if Juncker didn't obscure your vision by teabagging you 24/7.
>>61672604
>The sad reality is that YOU are the small country and that YOU are dominated by the US and that YOU need US in order to be a "big" country.
Yes, and that's why European countries need to stick together and federalize, or else we will become puppet states for USA, China or other rising world powers.
>And no, we don't need to be a part of a big country, we don't need your "democracy" and you wont scare us with the big bad russians-save that for the Poles, Czechs, Balts etc.
What do you think would happen to Slovenia if you left the EU?
>>61672549
Except that NAFTA doesn't get involved with your amendments unlike Brussels try tondo here.
>>61668725
Because:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N14U5ZE-N2w
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PSPTGTpzbiI
>>61672549
Except that NAFTA isn't trying to merge USA and Canada into one and only country.
>>61672611
politically speaking, you will be always a minority in your country. You will neve see your political goals achieved.
>>61672670
I'd rather be an American puppet state than be ruled by the Belgian and German cucks.
>>61672723
HAHAHA!
>>61672670
Europe won't be ready to federalise for at least another couple hundred years m8. The current EU administration is trying to speed things up by undermining the individual nation states and ethnicities/cultures with mass immigration to create a new Pan-European identity, but it's just going to lead to civil wars if they aren't stopped.
The EU is a failed experiment and needs to be terminated so that a new functional union can take it's place.
>>61672670
>Yes, and that's why European countries need to stick together and federalize,
No, we don't, all we get out of this is a German/French/whatever overload instead of an American/Russian/whatever (according to you). To us its all the same. Do you think I give a fuck if the poeple calling the shots are """"""""""fellow Europeans""""""""?
No, YOU will become (already are) a puppet of the the US, what you want is us to become your puppets so that you may stop being the puppet of others. Pure hypocrisy.
>What do you think would happen to Slovenia if you left the EU?
We'd probably all die in a fire kind of like Switzerland, Iceland or Norway right?
>>61672723
This kind of arrogance sparked a world war. Let that sink in.
>>61672790
The European nations have been under attack by the EU for many decades now.
>>61668725
what is the european comission?
>>61672723
Politically speaking YOU are the minority in YOUR fucking own country, as for my goals they will be achieved the day people like you will hang on a rope.
Do you know why the red suburb arrond Paris is now looking like Africa ? It's simple to explain, at first it was filled with working class communists but then people from africa came and french people started to get the fuck outta here, now there isn't any french people living there.
The thing is people don't want your niggerish friends to come to Europe and if you are too stupid to even understand that it mean you should worry about your low intelligence.
Get fucked, I hope that your women relatives will be raped in front of you by your diverse friends, then you will get the justice you deserve for being an idiot.
>>61672611
vichy scum
collaborateurs like you were hung 70 years ago
>>61672820
>We'd probably all die in a fire kind of like Switzerland, Iceland or Norway right?
no, you will become russian vassald like in the good old days
>>61672847
Only now is it becoming obvious to the average European though, mainly because of how clumsily they've been executing their plans as well as the way they've dealt with the various crises the continent has been confronted with over the place 10 years or so. The system has been exposed as anti democratic and the people running it as incompetent frauds. Brexit is the living proof, and it'll almost certainly trigger a chain reaction of Exit/independence referendums that will spell the end of the EU within 10 years.
>>61672600
https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=fr&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=https%3A%2F%2Ffr.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FInitiative_populaire_%25C2%25AB_Pour_le_renvoi_des_%25C3%25A9trangers_criminels_%25C2%25BB&edit-text=&act=url
>>61672974
We were never a Russian vassal you uneducated retard.
>ctrl + f "Lisbon"
>0 results
The council lost most of its power to the EU parliament you retards. The German may use ad hominems too liberally, but he's right on this one.
Explain to me how the EU is undemocratic, smart-asses.
>>61673014
The EU "parliament" is a fucking charade, it can only approve, reject or propose amends to a legislative proposal before it's taken to the Council, who is not even legally obliged to take account of Parliament's opinion.
http://www.europarl.europa.eu/aboutparliament/en/20150201PVL00004/Legislative-powers
Watch the and tell how you can not hate the EU.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N14U5ZE-N2w
he is the EU Vice-President
>>61673014
You mean that treaty that The Netherlands and France rejected with a no?
>>61673175
Video*
>>61672907
You're still here with your lack of knowledge ?
De Gaulle himself said he didn't gave a fuck about collaborators...
Beside my grand father was a communist, and he used to beat bourgeois scum like you until their bones broke, you upper class faggot are nothing more than weak pussies waiting to be stuffed by a real man.
But hell, a leftard piece of crap is now talking about how the average joe is thinking.
One day you will be hanging on a floor lamp
>>61672396
Because money in third world tends to gravitate up top
>>61673184
the treaty that was the renegotiated and accepted
>>61673014
Well, the commission still has legislative initiative.
It's not really un-democratic, since democratic bodies, council and parliament participate in the process, but it's pretty low-democratic.
>>61673228
haha
are you a nazi or a bolshewik now?
>>61673251
It's minimum requirement democratic, just enough to scrape by.
I don't hate them. They are bloated, yes but they are also incredibly useful. To make a free market with 27 countries with vastly different legislation work you need a central body which manages the day to day business. Cumulative seen the EU is the biggest/wealthiest market in the world and has way more power than 27 countries on their own.
Yes the rapefugee crisis is tragic but preceding to that we had 25 years of prosperity.
Yes you do not vote directly the comission but you vote the persons that elect it. With a average voter turnout of 42% in Europe and most people not even knowing what the comission does this probably is even the good thing. Considering the uneducated proletarian majority is easily manipulated into voting for some populist agenda.
>>61668725
Because poorfags stay poor, and middle class fags are turning into poorfags.
Also because we're surrounded by furries sick fucks
>>61673228
You realise communists are on the Left too?
>>61672144
>I don't think companies would employ third world immigrants if they are worse than the local academics
Then why make migration easier? If they were highly skilled they would already be able to migrate. This is literally a scheme to flood Europe with third worlders to dump wages.
>>61673245
You know what happens when you want to change the constitution in the Netherlands?
2/3rd of the parties need to agree. And once they do you get reelections. After those elections the parties need to agree again.
Now the treaty of Lisbon was far more impactful than that. So we got a referendum instead.
We voted no. Then they removed the symbolics that made it appear like a constitution and pretended it wasn't and let it pass.
Our politicians don't even have the mandate to renegotiate such a thing.
>>61673387
treaty of lisbon didnt change eu constitution
>>61669392
European countries actually have a definable culture. It's easy to rule over 340 million grey blobs, it's not as easy to rule over 500 million red, blue, green and yellow blobs.
>BUT AMERICAN STATES ARE PRETTY MUCH THE SAME AS EUROPEAN COUNTRIES
Even Americans don't believe this.
Regardless, I think some things are better done centrally, such as foreign policy and trade deals, because you really have a lot more leverage that way.
>>61673245
The treaty that was hastily pushed through by our national government long between elections and without a referendum. Same with the Euro.
>>61673014
>>61673161
Well?
>>61673307
Why not both ? Nazis used to put people like you in oven while bolshewiks used to let you starve to death in Siberia, I'm fine with both methods, you upper class niggers need to be taught a lesson about reality.
You are scum and unworthy of live, you leftist piece of shit are nothing more than human garbage. Stalin was right when he said the leftism is a mental defect comming from communism.
>>61673420
>the Treaty of Lisbon was created to replace the Constitutional Treaty. This contained many of the changes that were originally placed in the Constitutional Treaty but was formulated as amendments to the existing treaties.
The EU is a neoliberal dictatorship Group, which is steered by democratically illegitimate coterie rounds as the European Round Table of Industrialists, and in the lobbies of its laws write mostly themselves - centrally for the whole of Europe. Since World War II, there what probably no more phase in Which the Europeans had examined in the wool as. Since the so-called Euro-bailout policy due to the Euro debacle in Germany is incitement against the "bankrupt Greeks", in Greece the German Nazi exhumed in the tabloids again - while the country which Transformed into a protectorate of the EU's and IMF's grace, in fact without its own decision option.
>>61673365
No fuck given, commies used to kill leftist scum in the USSR, trotskists were considered worse than traitors by Stain.
>>61673332
>voting for some populist agenda
Yeah, instead the enlightened bureacrats decide what's good for the market. Much better.
EU's failure is due to member states dumping their politicians like China is dumping steel.
>>61673307
nothing wrong with being a nazi. i hate all non-white people. so, what?
>>61673332
There it is again, the "the majority of voters would be wrong anyway" meme. You're a disgrace for democracy.
>>61673541
Nah, the reason the EU fails is because countries didn't trust the EU when they created it.
That's the reason why you can't vote for foreign politicians. Why the EP can't propose laws.
Why the EC gets picked by presidents and prime ministers.
Why national ministers decide about the finances. etc
The EU is a puppet of 28 countries. That's why it sucks so much.
>>61673420
Treaty of Lisbon IS the EU constitution.
Except the old proposed constitution also had reference to Christian roots of Europe, but nation states didn't like that.
To be fair, they're still both pretty monstrous documents, but at the end of the day, Lisbon treaty is not the cause for EU's problems: it's a symptom of cancerous national politics that treat integration as a cheap source of domestic political points: take credit for all the good things like open borders and open markets, and offload all unpopular things like regulations and unfavourable court decisions.
Also, it's also national politics that perverted the common currency project into the dysfunctional mess it is now.
>>61673603
That's what I mean, no country wants to commit to the EU so they keep sending shit politicians.
>>61673646
Yeah. Plus they actively keep critical journalists away.
>>61673636
The national economic systems were too incompatible for a single currency in the first place.
>>61673307
>>61672723
>>61672446
>>61672328
>>61672051
>>61671882
>>61671467
>>61671297
>>61671175
>>61671058
>>61670567
>>61670113
Where is this idiot again ? Where is he hidding? This nigger loving bourgeois garbage wouldn't even dare to talk that way IRL, the very moment he call a working class personn a nazi then he loose all his teeth and end up crying like the little bitch he is.
>>61673161
>The ordinary legislative procedure gives the same weight to the European Parliament and the Council of the European Union on a wide range of areas (for example, economic governance, immigration, energy, transport, the environment and consumer protection). The vast majority of European laws are adopted jointly by the European Parliament and the Council.
Sorry for the late reply, was having dinner. In practice the parliament has a say in anything and is hardly overcrossed.
>>61673251
As many as argued before, you can certainly call it low-democratic. Then again, if the EU didn't exist and your ministers of your countries decided to negotiate a common economic policy on one thing or the other, it would have the exact same effect.
It was also compared previously in this thread with the US' way of legislation, which might be ridiculously low-democratic as well, but at least works somewhat efficiently.
In democracy it's always a trade-off between correct representation and efficiency. We simply can't afford a classic Athens style of democracy.
>>61673511
Yes?
The average prole is only concerned with the next day. What he will eat and what holiday he will go on. And that's fine. It really becomes laughable though when he thinks he is more educated on the subject matter of international trade and intercountry relationships.
Of course every country in the EU wants the best things for them. The privileges without the duties. How do you think this balancing act can be achieved without a central institution. I am genuinely curious.
>>61673832
Except that the EU is both low-democratic and unefficient. Unless it's legislation that's controversial or harmful to the populace, in which case they're extremely quick to pass it.
>>61673850
The average prole spite on your face
>>61673893
That is a complete non-argument, unless you can show that a different legislative procedure applies to legislation harmful to EU citizens.
I know I'm taking you too seriously but you've got to stop spouting stupid one-liners like that.
>>61673564
No the disgrace is that only an average of 42% even care about voting. Clearly we are tired of democracy or just too wealthy/lazy to even give a shit.
>>61668725
Because it's incredibly hard to understand its actions.
I blame the EU itself for being this complicated only people well-versed on the subject understand it.
>The EU is just missunderstood and wants a hug
>>61673965
That doesn't even make any sense. But thanks for confirming me.
>>61673980
Not gonna.
>>61673997
That doesn't legitimize undemocratic institutions.
>>61673850
What is up with this new European left that hates the working man
The same thing happened in England
>>61674160
Culture of university brainwashing.
>>61674101
By your definition the bundespräsident (our head of state) is elected undemocratically because we cannot vote for him directly
>>61674160
They've lost their connection. Most politicians have lost their connection to the people, although my country is still pretty all right.
Labour has become too intellectual and is kept too much by its ideology to adopt populist bait stances.
>>61674218
And I support the resolution of his office. His law signing and veto duties can just as well be assumed by the court of justice, they check the laws in the end anyway.
>>61674160
The educated always laughed about "the working class" but until the internet most proletarians didn't notice. Ever read 1984?
>>61674160
You don't understand. It actually loves the working man, it just believes that it knows better than him what's good for him.
And given its education, it's probably often right. But even so, it's condescending about it and doesn't know how to communicate with him, allowing him to keep his dignity. And in most alarming cases, it seeks or expresses desire to deprive him of representation for his own good.
Churchill was right about democracy desu.
It's least bad form of government found so far, and best argument against it is brief conversation with average voter.
>>61674308
>reading
What, are you an intellectual elitist, too?
>>61674308
That is true but they never said that the working man is ''dumb and racist and dont know whats better for themselves'' on tv while holding socialists flags like they were doing in England
Real comunist would kill themselves if they saw this new left
>>61674411
This post so much.
You can't deny that that quote is exactly what's the problem though.
>>61674308
I only joke about labourers with my rightist friends tbqh
>>61674411
>And given its education, it's probably often right.
Nobody knows what's best for a mature person except for that person him- or herself. That's the entire principle of maturity. No adult person is too stupid to make their own decisions. If you disregard maturity, you disregard democracy.
>>61673175
>Europe must accept Diversity or face War
He's right. Accepting diversity doesn't mean renouncing your own culture.
>>61673175
What a gigantic load of shit. The third world can be diverse in the third world. We have our own mouths to feed.
>>61674624
Fuck off, nobody want your diversity leftard piece of crap
>>61674591
Animals also mature, that doesn't give them the automatic and intrinsic power to make the best decision.
People are no different.
There are many people who can not even manage their own expenses, how can they be expected to know anything about the economy of a state?
People who have never left their village, never seen the inside of an economy book, never studied history beyond the little that was force-fed to them in high school, people who know nothing of geopolitics.
How can they be expected to know what's best for their country?
its a german again with the same shitty old arguments every single fucking day
fuck off and die
>>61674790
>this is the new left
Epic its even worse than the old one
>>61668725
>Why do people hate the European Comission?
I hate freemasonry, and freemasons rule the EU
>>61674824
I'm not a leftist you idiot.
I don't pretend to want to represent the people.
I want to provide them equal opportunities for education, but if they are incapable of education they can stew in their own juices.
Democracy has become a meme, and it is time to move on.
>>61674411
This basically.
If you think about the life of a 50-60-year-old working class man in a British industrial city or mining community, his life hasn't really improved in the last 30 years or so. Employment prospects have been bad, since automation and chinks are cheaper option for industry and Thatcher stopped artificial respiration on coal mines. If there are no employment prospects, young people flock out of town, in case there are jobs they are on the service industry with shitty wages. On top of that you start seeing increasing number of foreigners around and the only visible improvement they might bring to your life is an ethnic restaurant. Add an electoral system where votes are meaningless if you didn't pick the sole winner because he is cunt, it's no wonder that life seems shit.
>>61674449
Yup. But every socialist party in Europe is in a big conundrum. On one side the majority of their votes come from working class citizen. A lot of these (or at least a very audible minority) are xenophobic screaming "dey took our jerbs". Obviously the socialist parties would jump onto that. However being xenophobic is quite the opposite of being social it's being egoistic.
That's also the major reason why hardline socialism/communism/marxism will never work. On one hand you have the inherent egomaniac nature of humans themselves and on the other side you have the socialist expectation that people are solidary towards you. Capitalism as cruel as it is at least just accepts it and rides along with it.
>>61668725
I rather want a Reichstag than an European Comission. It will just be more obvious.
>>61674824
If anything that's a mostly right-wing view, as he's stating that only people that know something about how to run a country should have a say.
because it's undemocractic and against European interests anon
>>61675055
>I don't pretend to want to represent the people.
Oh ok, at least you say it, because those leftists in England who call themselves socialists were saying the exact same thing you said
>>61675155
So you agree that you dont really care about what the working man wants, and just want them to vote on what YOU want, thats why the new left is a joke
>>61675201
When you bend far enough to the left and the right you form a circle.
>>61675055
>>61674824
Education is a meme.
I already went trough this a week or so ago. The party with the higest % of highly educated voters here is ZL (United Left) and one of their pre-election programs were "abandonment of capitalism". Every retard can get a degree, especially in social sciences. Having an education doesn't make you a better voter in any way. It can give you a false sense of self-importance and superiority above the "uneducated masses" and the belief you know better than they do however.
There's even a nifty saying. Not every person with an education is educated nor does every educated person have an education.
>>61675335
>Our party's ideology is what will make you vote for us
sad thing is that parties that don't do this really just don't get elected.
>>61675415
This, sometimes those retards on college thinks they know whats better for everybody when they are just as bad
>>61675415
The problem is that even the most joke of degrees consist of people significantly more intelligent than the average http://www.randalolson.com/wp-content/uploads/iq-by-college-major-gender.png
>>61675415
>>61675502
oh shit it's another 'if you don't get an education you're smarter than someone with an education!' episode.
It's astounding how many people actually buy into this.
>>61675115
So what do you want to say? The chinks stole his jobs his sons/daughters realized how shit their fathers job was. They became educated and went into industry jobs which are better payed and more demanding. They became engineers and now build turbines at rolls royce. Thanks Mr. Chinaman from having to go into the coalmines?
>>61675415
As a social science student I have to say that if every damn university's social science programs would refuse to pass students who completed at least two rigorous courses on statistical analysis we wouldn't have this issue.
I had a mandatory course on quantitative methods, which was about entry level shit like understanding what validity and reliability mean, the only thing you had to calculate was arithmetic mean. 53% of the participants failed the first exam.
>>61675583
I dont, but i do think that the high class socialists dont really know anything about what they are talking about and should have no right to say about what the working man wants
Keep in mind that i hate comunism but the hipocrisy of those people make me even madder
>>61675632
People don't realize that the lower class jobs are all gonna go with mechanization whether they like it or not. A couple of chinks working there will amount less to the job availability than overall tech progress. Might as well just reduce birthrates even more to keep jobs available.
>>61675736
You were supposed to be educated Finland. Arithmetic mean is taken out of elementary school.
>>61675539
Then why do they have such retarded opinions? Exactly, because "intelligent" people are just as easy to manipulate as dumb people as long as you tell them that only smart people fall for your manipulation. They don't care about being manipulated, they just want to reinforce the self image that they're smarter than others.
>>61675880
Or maybe it's just you trying to deny their intelligence on the basis of disagreement with you.
>>61675539
It doesn't though, the social sciences are all around the average.
There's (at least) two problems with your graph.
1.It's from the US where education is paid for
2.The "shitty degrees" are right smack on average.
>inb4 100 is the average
Yeah, but that average includes people's that have below average IQ's to start with. White americans are at (iirc) 106 average IQ. Besides that, a few points of difference does not really make a difference and IQ is shady as is.
>>61675583
Oh shit it's a "I put words into people's mouths" episode.
>>61675959
If they are so intelligent why are they destroying their college campuses
Pic is the best college in latin america
>inb4 hur latin america
>>61675789
Communism is an ideology for people smart enough to understand why it could work, but not smart enough to see that there are way too many pitfalls to ever succeed.
I guess that communism resonates even more in a country going from one disaster to the other. People desire change, they care little about the form.
>>61675997
I'm assuming the research isn't done on white people only.
Also the average IQ for Americans is 98 as of 2016.
>>61675959
What intelligence?
>>61675155
>being social mean not being egoistic
Kek the champagne socialists are really dumb... The funny thing is that joke come from a german, and in Germany the social system was created by Bismarck...
Actually France had it's stritest anti immigration laws in the 1930's when it was ruled by a coalition of socialists and communists...
Champagne socialist are real idiots
>>61675415
I agree. Education is a "meme".
I majored in CS and plenty of my colleagues I would rate as politically inept and they wouldn't even feel offended if I had told them that.
Education can not make you understand politics. It's the ability to care, to be empathetic, to feel responsible and an everlasting thirst for more. These values are what separates the small from the big minded. You could complete a thousand studies and still wouldn't be any "smarter".
>>61675632
What I'm trying to say that they aren't even promising to improve their life in any shape or form, but still act like they represent the working class. I know there are no solutions that don't include something like moving away, getting more education or accepting somehow undesirable working conditions.
>>61675841
>Arithmetic mean is taken out of elementary school.
It's taught here too and as far as I recall only one question involved calculation in any form. I just couldn't fathom how people were so incapable of understanding relatively simple concepts like the representativity of a sample, while having generally no issues with passing an exam that required you to (at least partially) memorize two 200-400 page course books.
>>61675959
>>61675539
>leftist
>Intelligent
Yeah sure... We saw that lately in France
>>61675583
>muh degrees
My grand pa went from being an electrician to a weaponnary enginer, and he did it without spending a single minute in an university.
>>61675997
Wrong, a square represents 10 IQ points. 100 is the average and the very bottom. Even social work appears to be around 103 in IQ. Degrees also contain various races too so I don't get why we should only consider white american average or whether 106 claim is true. I don't also understand the point of bringing the fact that average contains cases of both ends of the bell curve.
To be honest I don't value IQ too highly, but many of those people shitting on educated people also shit on different minorities for having lower IQ.
>>61676085
>latin america
Never really heard of any problems like those here. Maybe revolution is just the way.
>>61676117
Well, would've been better said that you deny their qualifications and ability not to be manipulated on the basis of disagreeing with your opinion.
>>61668725
Because 90% have no idea what the EU is and how it works.
>>61675841
The birthrates are self adjusting. People don't realize but birthrates are parallel to technological progress. The more advanced a country is the less there is need for manual labor.
>>61676291
Wow, he was born with the knowledge to become a weaponry engineer? Truly amazing.
>>61676311
>Never really heard of any problems like those here.
Shit like that is happening even in Harvard
>>61676360
>People don't realize but birthrates are parallel to technological progress.
To an extend maybe. Eastern Europe has shit birthrates even though they are argueably more technologically backwards than western European countries.
>>61676366
He was designing the electronic parts of missiles
>>61676115
>I'm assuming the research isn't done on white people only.
The vast majority of them are white, even with affirmative action white's are still twice to three times more likely to go to colledge.
At the same time you neatly skimmed over the fact that it's from the US where education is not free like it's here. Poverty is associated with low intelligence and poor people can't afford colledg thus you already have a portion of the low IQ population drop off.
>>61676311
>Wrong, a square represents 10 IQ points. 100 is the average and the very bottom. Even social work appears to be around 103 in IQ.
So, below the average for white Americans? How am I "wrong". The vast majority of the people on your graph are fucking avearge. Even if I let off and say, okay, they're a point or two above average what does that change?
>Degrees also contain various races too so I don't get why we should only consider white american average
Becuase they're the vast majority of them. In other words, the average IQ for colledge goears will always be higher than that of the general population simply because colledge goears are whites in much higer % than in the general population.
> I don't also understand the point of bringing the fact that average contains cases of both ends of the bell curve.
Because it's very relevant when the average is being dragged down by a certain population group that is underrepresented in colledge.
>To be honest I don't value IQ too highly, but many of those people shitting on educated people also shit on different minorities for having lower IQ.
Ofc you don't value it too highly, that would make you a racist, right? But its still good enough to be used to "prove" certain things when the occasion arises.
>>61676669
In-state college is comparable to dutch uni costs, and a lot of community colleges are free.
Where's your 'whites have an IQ of 106' research?
>>61676669
>How am I "wrong".
Probably because 103 is pretty significantly above average and that's the shittiest degree. As you go to non joke degrees the average skyrockets. I don't really have any statistics about % of minorities in college degrees. But I imagine there could be enough of them on easier degrees. I still don't have any source on white Americans averaging 106.
I found http://www.rense.com/general79/dut.htm but here it states 103, which would still put the shittiest degrees above it and those surely contain more minorities with shitty IQ than 0%. Unless it's Asians fault.
>Because it's very relevant when the average is being dragged down by a certain population group that is underrepresented in colledge.
And? Those below average groups still vote and apparently in disagreement with college goers.
>>61668725
Lack of sound knowledge about EC among said groups. People often fear or hate things they know little.
>>61677119
This. And everyone needs a scapegoat. Not saying EC is perfect, it's far from it. But it's a low hanging fruit for resident politicians to divert from their own shortcomings.
The most important parts of inner state politics, stuff that affects average joe the most like budgetary planing, military, education, taxing (aside from vat) is not even controlled by the EU.
>>61677433
Exactly.
>>61676923
>>61676959
>Probably because 103 is pretty significantly above average
That's not true at all. Even if the white IQ was 100 calling 103 "significantly above average" is not only stupid but also disinigninous. Not only is the average dragged down by certain population groups based on race or ethnicity but also by other population groups such as the mentally retarded which will never see colledge to begin with.
>As you go to non joke degrees the average skyrockets.
The % of people gaining them drops off equally.
>I found http://www.rense.com/general79/dut.htm but here it states 103, which would still put the shittiest degrees above it and those surely contain more minorities with shitty IQ than 0%. Unless it's Asians fault.
1. Asians and Jews are over represented and blacks and hispanics are underepresented. If anything it would tip the scale the other way.
>And? Those below average groups still vote and apparently in disagreement with college goers.
Based on what? You just pull that out of your ass? For example, the Brexit is alleged that the majority of people with high education voted to remain but at the same time foregoes that the fact the least educated parts of society, immigrant blacks, pakistanis, indians, etc voted for remain as well. "fortunately" they weren't numerous enough to drag down the "high educated" part into the "least educated" part of the population. It was the same with Obama in the US where the "most educated states" voted for Obama and the "least educated states" voted for Romney while foregoing that the least educated parts of US society (Blacks and Latinos) voted overwhelmingly for Obama.
Trough all this we're going with the assumption that in fact IQ = intelligence and that education = smart. Not only that but also assuming that education itself somehow impacts on your voting preference when in fact there's no real evidence to support this or the "evidence" is nothing but a statistical fallacy.
