Can people explain to me what is especially undemocratic about the EU?
With the whole Brexit debate you'll see people complaining about how the EU is undemocratic, but I don't see how.
In your own country you probably vote for parliament and the people that get elected decide who among them fills a number of positions.
As an EU citizen, you can vote for the European parliament. again the people who get elected decide who fills what position.
How is one democratic, but the other not?
Basically that an EU decision and regulation can conflict with a national people's decision, restricting their ability to make decisions. It's the same way that the federal government of a country restricts the provincial government, making it less "democratic".
>>61096260
How is that undemocratic though?
Who calls American Congress undemocratic?
>>61096260
That's stupid. Your vote mattering less doesn't make something less democratic.
>>61096404
>>61096436
I think the idea is that the vote counts less for nothing in return. There's pretty much no difference between American states but someone from Hungary and someone from UK have very little in common. It's more like their people aren't being represented as much, so it's less democratic. Maybe it's not exactly the right word, but it's a popular buzzword that people usually think of as positive.
>>61096140
>As an EU citizen, you can vote for the European parliament.
Except the European Parliament has no control over EU law. All of it is written and passed by unelected officials and it amounts to 60% of Britain's total laws.
tl;dr - watch Brexit the Movie.
>>61096664
So it's just a meme, basically?
>>61096436
It quite clearly does.
>>61096726
>Except the European Parliament has no control over EU law.
Except they do. Is the rest of the movie also misinformation?
>>61096726
>All of it is written and passed by unelected officials
so like in the usa
>it amounts to 60% of Britain's total laws
yes which is why belonging (i.e. having a minimal effect on the way those laws are made) is clearly better than leaving (i.e. having no say whatsoever and still having to abide with them to access the common market)
>>61096742
I wouldn't want people from Africa deciding my country's laws. I don't know what you consider a meme but people more similar to me should be deciding the laws of where I live.
>>61096841
By European Parliament I mean MEPs, who are the only people you're able to elect. MEPs have no say in anything whatsoever.
>>61096911
>>61096745
I would prefer it if all decisions were made by me and other single men between 20 and 30 too. That doesn't make women and older people having a vote less democratic.
I get the argument but it's a terrible way of wording it
>>61097107
I still live, work with, and are affected by the laws the same as women and old people. People from places thousands of kilometers away don't.
>>61096726
European Council (heads of national governments) sets the agenda
European commission (every national government selects one commissioner) drafts legislation
European Parliament (directly elected by the EU citizens) passes legislation
>>61096877
The EU will export more to Britain than vice versa. Also the EFTA should become a counterweight to the EU again.
>>61097196
Basically it was made this way because national governments wanted more power
EU would be more democratic with directly elected president and common government that would rely on confidence from European Parliament, but then it would be federation.
>>61097168
They do live with, work within and are affected by those laws. They are affected differently, but so are the old people
>>61097011
They have a vote in whether legislature passes or not
>>61097248
even if that happens, the uk still has to follow eu rules. it's basically the same thing with you. except you're geographically positioned so that goods HAVE to cross you. this doesn't happen with the uk. they have a lot to lose and very little to gain.
but i understand them, though. the world shouldn't be run on money.
>>61096404
>Who calls American Congress undemocratic?
Technically we are a republic and the're the reason why. We only directly vote on valor measures. The're a bunch of cunts who are just in it mainly for themselves but so far no one has come up with a better idea.
Most democratic at the bottom, less democratic the more you go up.
If someone's vote is worth less or more than mine, that's undemocratic, or if I'm unable to vote, undemocratic.
>>61097392
>Technically we are a republic
That's a fucking meme.
Congressmen are democratically elected and so are MEPs full stop.
>>61096877
>so like in the usa
Absolutely not. I don't much about how things work in the US, but I know that laws are written by one part of government and passed a different part. Secondly, if I'm not mistaken, the politicians are tied to certain states/counties/cities and divided Democratic/Republican in proportion to votes in the local elections of each of those regions.
>yes which is why belonging (i.e. having a minimal effect on the way those laws are made) is clearly better than leaving (i.e. having no say whatsoever and still having to abide with them to access the common market)
>implying 60% of EU laws will still apply to Britain
If nothing else, British fisherman will be able to fish more than 5 miles out to sea instead of having to reserve those waters for Dutch and Portuguese companies to fish as is the case now. If EU law is as restrictive outside as inside then why aren't Switzerland, Norway, and Iceland begging to join?
>>61096140
Europe is not a single country, its laws shouldn't be decided as if it were one. If the EU only made laws regarding trade, then it wouldn't be so bad.
>>61097465
EU supports stronger regional governace
>>61097248
EFTA is is just EU Lite
>>61097363
You're missing the point, I don't live with people thousands of kilometers away. I shouldn't have to live under the same laws as them, who want to live in a different way than me.
Yeah, how democratic it is for poles or greeks to have a say in how you run YOUR country.
And then when your country democratically decides to not follow EU law the other 27 will very democratically tell you to eat dick and fuck off.
>>61097363
No they don't, Jean-Claude. Nigel Farage is an MEP you know.
>>61097560
I get that, but I get the impression a lot of people have no clue to what these laws actually are
>>61097591
You don't live with people dozens of kilometers away and the people on your block live in a different way.
>>61097579
Free trade, no equalisation transfers, no freedom of movement of workers (between countries with different wages, different social security, broken job markets in one country, unbroken in the other)
>>61097779
>Nigel Farage is an MEP you know
So?
He's in irrelevant meme faction, so he has no real power. Just like Ukip in Westminster with one seat.
>>61097548
Agriculture, not even fishing, in total is like 0.5% of our economy.
We are overwhelmingly an advanced, service based economy (nearly 80% of GDP is services) and as such we should have as open an economy as possible
>Switzerland, Norway, and Iceland
EFTA still follow most EU regulations, still make monetary contribution, and still allow free movement (even worse, they’re in Schengen) but have no seat at the table.
How is that any better than what we currently have? A big seat at the table of the largest single market with easy access to it yet special snowflake status (opt out of euro, Schengen, further political integration etc.).
>>61097779
>What does the Parliament do?
>The Parliament has 3 main roles:
>Legislative
>Passing EU laws, together with the Council of the EU, based on European Commission proposals
http://europa.eu/about-eu/institutions-bodies/european-parliament/index_en.htm
>>61097922
EFTA isn't EEA or the two so called bilateral treaties between the EU and Switzerland.
national parties blame the EU for the major fuck ups their own officials manage to achieve in the Council/Commission
it's funny how people believe the "EU bureacrats from outer space" meme
>>61096841
>>61097196
>>61097747
>>61097363
OK, I stand corrected, they're just unable to initiate, propose, or repeal legislation, which every other parliament in the world is able to do: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FtgDjJvDRc8
>>61097824
The difference between London and Manchester is much smaller than the difference between London and Warsaw.
>>61097824
What??
I talk to the people who live on my block, go to the same restaurants, use the same banks, go to the same sports events, go to the same church, and the same schools. We are treated by the same police, the same province, and speak the same language.
>>61098076
dude it's the fucking democratically appointed government/ministers who make european legislation
>>61098076
And a reason why it's unable to do so is because national governments of the EU want to retain their power
This way Malta (population 450,000) can veto almost anything in the European Council
>>61096140
pls post legible pic, lelgium.
>>61097548
norway and iceland literally because of their fish industry. their basically eu colonies (have to abide by all the laws but can't say anything about them). but norway and iceland LIVE for fish. they're like the top 2 fish exporters in the world or something. and i should know this because portugal is the world's 3rd biggest fish importer.
but the uk has a small fish industry and quite honestly very little to gain with having its seas back to it.
switzerland is a different case. most trading routes between italy/germany/france or ones that go between more than two countries have to pass via switzerland in most cases (whereas these routes don't have to pass through the uk at all to get to ireland for instance). also switzerland has the unique banking system that the uk lacks. it would be great if the uk had a big special thing that it would gain with independence but it doesn't
>>61097387
>except you're geographically positioned so that goods HAVE to cross you
Fucking really? It's not possible to bypass the tiny mountainous blob in pic related?
>>61098072
the EU is too complicated and boring, so it's easy to scapegoat
>>61098076
If it was the other way and oh so democratic you Brexiters would whine how we're effectively a federation and your national parliament is pointless when the EU one is the only one that matters.
By giving the legislative initiative to the Council and the Commission you're effectively ensuring that the interests of your national parliament are respected as well, not just the EU's.
>>61097824
>but I get the impression a lot of people have no clue to what these laws actually are
That applies to domestic politics, too.
I shouldn't have to understand something fully to form an opinion on it, that's impractical. The EU is designed from the ground up to be as complex and hard to understand as possible. At the end of the day, if I don't like the government I can vote against it every five years. If it messes up, it gets voted out.
I simply cannot do that with the EU.
>>61098291
not if they want to be contrarian and try to force the swiss into the EU's sinking ship.
>>61098322
You wouldn't understand. You were ruled by Moscow for centuries and when that collapsed you looked west for someone to dominate you.
We haven't had that.
>>61098291
it is, of course. but the alps are though and swiss gasoline is cheap. and sometimes you have to go germany->italy->france->austria and you have no way yo avoid it.
>>61098125
>go to the same restaurants, use the same banks, go to the same sports events, go to the same church, and the same schools
I bet you don't. The differences may be smaller but I find it hard to believe your neighbors all like the same sports you do and have their checking accounts in the same bank
>>61098072
>>61098294
Pretty much these. Nobody has any understanding of how the EU functions at all. Not even the very basics. The only thing people know is that "some eurocommunist cultists pass laws we all have to obey". The end result is that everyone uses it as a convenient scapegoat because people firmly believe it's some omnipotent organization completely separated from national politics.
>>61098452
At least some apply
Everyone here loves hockey, everyone here is Christian.
>>61098337
it's fucking law, not rocket science, you simply need to open a simple book that explains how the EU works and that's it
one could say the same thing for national law
>I simply cannot do that with the EU.
you're literally doing it you dumb bong
>>61098291
Have you heard about that biggest tunnel recently opened in Switzerland? Gotthard pass has always been very important choke point
Hitler didn't invade Switzerland because they had banks and the Swiss could blow up crucial tunnels and bridges, which would've been very unpleasant for Germany
>>61098399
Try to meme less and address the point next time.
>>61098561
When you have to read a scientific paper or something like this to find out why the EU is democratic then something could be wrong.
>>61098337
i could replace "eu" for "national" or "uk" or "government" or whatever and you'd sound completely retarded
>>61098337
>I simply cannot do that with the EU.
You simply fucking do it all the time. By electing your own national parliament and then the MEPs. Fucking hell.
>>61098593
>you simply need to open a simple book that explains how the EU works and that's it
No, it isn't it. The whole thing is incredibly complicated and they spend most of their time arguing over who does what. It's not transparent in the slightest.
>you're literally doing it you dumb bong
I'm voting in a referendum held by my own government, the EU didn't give me that.
>>61098650
World is a complicated place. Sorry for that.
I guess it's all just a conspiracy.
>>61097560
This, current eu is awful and needs to be abolished.
FUCK EU
>>61098727
On the other hand a few A4 sheets are enough to explain why the USA is a democracy and how checks and balances work.
>>61098561
>>61098650
It's really not that complex
Of course I live in a Kafkaesque nightmare of a country with 6 levels of government, not counting the EU
>>61098768
and yet most americans in this website (and on the internet in general and irl too) will say the USA isn't a democracy at all but just a republic (whatever that means).
things aren't simple, move on
>>61098650
They genuinely don't get it.
>>61098674
Why do you think being unable to get through the absolute mess that comprises the structure and organisation of the European Union makes people "retarded", considering the people who work for the thing have about as much clue as I do?
>>61098705
They don't get to do anything important in relation to the EU. They might have input, but that input doesn't come back and change anything for me.
People who are paid large sums of money to form judgment and provide expertise on the European Union are unable to come to any sort of consensus. What chance does anyone else have? It's purposefully complex.
>>61098768
this
the entire US constitution is a few sheets of A4 paper
>>61096140
>that flag
>this post
>>61098650
>national governments are appointed democratically
>heads of said governments form the European Council
>ministers form the Council of the EU
>govs appoint some shitters in the Commission
gee so hard
>>61098713
>>61098713
your own government also gave you the EU
>>61098713
You just have to tell that you want. That's all what you need to leave the EU.
Just like the Warsaw Pact, amirite? xD
"Democratic" are all the things that you like and "undemocratic" are all the things that you don't like. If you especially dislike something, it's "facist". There you go, all clear now.
>>61098809
I am fairly sure most Americans would consider the United States a democracy.
>>61098812
it's not being unable to get there that makes you retarded, it's giving up on it because you don't understand it
you're literally admitting to being lazy and stupid.
that said, and because i just want to make this clear, i respect brexit supporters tremendously if not just for autonomy's sake
>>61098840
*tell them that you want leave
Why dont we just SHIT on our history, throw our flags in the toilet and kiss some kikes ass in Belgium?
What are we waiting for? Thats what EU is. It's USA 2.0, and it's SHIT.
>>61098855
you should have a go on it, then
then again most americans are retards
>>61098900
>kikes
Eurosceptic "arguments" in a nutshell
>>61098885
>it's not being unable to get there that makes you retarded, it's giving up on it because you don't understand it
The people who work as part of it don't understand it. Neither do you. No one does.
>you're literally admitting to being lazy and stupid.
I'm neither. I just don't understand why something that apparently makes so much sense and only survives through national governments has tens of thousands of pages of legislation, directive and regulation.
Why does it need that?
>>61098190
>dude it's the fucking democratically appointed government/ministers who make european legislation
If the video I posted is not mistaken, it's the European Commission that proposes and writes legislation, and their 28 members are decided by the European Council which is made up by the heads of state of each of the member states? If, so how are they "democratically appointed"? In New Zealand, each member of the NZ parliament (which can propose/initiate/repeal/pass legislation unlike EP) is either directly elected in a regional by-election or is a List MP appointed based on the number of seats won by his party. Would the way the European Commission members are elected not be akin to our Prime Minister appointing a single MP for the whole of the NZ parliament by himself?
>>61096140
The EU shills are going all out tonight, both here and oon /pol/.
Wew.
>>61098855
Most of Americans consider Finland part of Scandinavia. Does not make them any more right though.
>>61099008
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwUmgni6UrQ
Who is he? Hes never even mentioned in the fucking news you retard.
>>61098251
>but the uk has a small fish industry
Yes, because of EU law.
>>61099016
because first it has to be clear and leave no space for confusion, second each country has a lot to bring in and very little it wants to concede, and third and finally because it's quite literally the first time this has happened in history
therefore you have to have a million pages with special amendments for this and that and whatnot. it's a bureaucratic mess. like a conglomerate of two banks or something baka
>>61099150
the uk never had a strong fishing industry not did they ever spend much on it. if they wanted it so badly, they could've just not joined in the first place like iceland and norway did.
that's like blaming your psycho girlfriend for your own shitty choice of moving in with her.
>>61099120
I'm all for directly elected president of the EU (van Rompuy wouldn't stand a chance for it), but I'm also European federalist
>>61096140
People also voted for immediate delegates in the USSR, but those delegates voted for other superior delegates and so on, making the whole election system something completely arbitrary and the power unreachable for the common citizen.
The EU is basically a bureaucratic superstructure as the USSR was, but without the welfare.
>>61099016
>The people who work as part of it don't understand it. Neither do you. No one does.
>>61099031
no, the commission is basically the watchdog of the EU, they make sure the laws made by the Council are applied in each state, that's why people hate them
their members are appointed by the democratically elected governments, so it is a democratic practice, the same way government officials are appointed. It's representative democracy 101
>>61099088
I wonder if they're paid as much as Hillshills:
http://www.businessinsider.com/clinton-pac-spends-1-million-to-correct-people-online-2016-4?IR=T
>>61099284
No, you could only vote for the list of the Communist Party
You couldn't start your own party, certainly not a party whose sole purpose was abolishment of the USSR
>>61099312
>the same way government officials are appointed.
See:
>In New Zealand, each member of the NZ parliament (which can propose/initiate/repeal/pass legislation unlike EP) is either directly elected in a regional by-election or is a List MP appointed based on the number of seats won by his party
> Would the way the European Commission members are elected not be akin to our Prime Minister appointing a single MP for the whole of the NZ parliament by himself?
>>61099347
I'm paid fuck all. My autism just forces me to reply to clueless retards.
>>61099366
It is completely Irrelevant who you vote for, and if it is a single or multi-party system. The structure will remain unaltered.
What we have in the EU is the ilusion of choice when voting, instead of the certainty of a single-party system
>>61099366
>No, you could only vote for the list of the Communist Party
>You couldn't start your own party
Where did he say otherwise? Don't "immediate delegates" = "list of Communist the Party"?
>>61099512
communist detected
>Yuropoors will defend the elegant simplicity of pic related
>>61099421
Are your ministers also directly elected? Because that's what european commissioners basically are.
>>61099252
Yeah and EU needs to change or its fucking finished.
It's not my job, it's their job. Currently it's awful and fucking shit.
>>61099196
I suppose the difference is that I don't pay taxes to prop up bank mergers.
>>61099527
Kek ok if you say so.
>>61099539
IT'S SIMPLE BECAUSE YOU DON'T GET IT AND BECAUSE NATIONS LIKE SLOVAKIA AND PORTUGAL UNDERSTAND IT COMPLETELY DUE TO THEIR GREAT HISTORY OF DEMOCRACY THAT MEANS YOU'RE STUPID BECAUSE YOU DON'T WANT TO READ 140 PAGES OF LEGAL WAFFLE TO UNDERSTAND WINDOW PANE LEGISLATION
>>61099527
>Be anti-EU on the basis it's like the USSR
>GOMMUNIST DEDEGTED!
>>61099460
Yeah, and you're not even bringing anything except calling people retards you fucking retard.
Why is EU so great then huh?
>>61099512
>democracy is a sham!
fuck off to north korea then
>>61099421
modern democracy 101: people vote for the parliament, the parliament approves the government and the government does shit. If people don't like shit the parliament SHOULD remove the confidence and a new government gets formed or new elections follow.
The EU has a democratic base, it's surely wonky but that's kinda obvious why
>>61099539
>NATO
>Council of Europe
>OSCE
Absolutely nothing to do with the EU
>>61099555
if the problem for you is taxation, then don't think it'll get any easier once you leave. i'm not trying to go like "GUYS UR RETARDED IF U LEAF" because i think it has a bit more to it than just money, though, just to be clear.
>>61099587
>defends single party system
>implies USSR is better than EU
>not a gommie
dude what do you expect, seriously
>>61099620
but it's not like the USSR at all, like the slovakian guy said. and when he was confronted with this, he just sperged out and said a single party system is more efficient than the EU (for what reason i do not know)
>>61099643
East europeans in general are so pissed off with the Russians and the Communists (Something completely comprehensible) that they would cope with anything that doesn't smell as Russian, whatever poison it is. And they will defend it as something positive.
>>61098216
malta only gets 3 points out of 345 in the council
>>61099539
no one said it was simple, kiwi. like you still having a queen and not owning a bunch of pacific islands that still belong to the uk
What are the immediate positive effects that Brits believe Brexit will bring them?
Your economy will fall as the market becomes uncertain because no one knows how the renegotiation will go.
Your migrant problem won't be entirely fixed you won't be able to deport the migrants already there and you still get a lot of non EU immigrants which is entirely on your own government to blame.
If you wish to continue trading with European countries (and I assume you do because it's a big part of your economy) your companies will still have to adhere to the stupid EU beuracratic rules if they wish to place their products on your market.
So what have you gained?
>>61099647
Oh now i know why its so great!!!!
For your shithole.
>>61099807
autonomy and self-assurance. this means a lot more than you think.
>>61099758
Learn to read. I have never defended a single party system. Neither have I defended the USSR, allthough I do defend welfare.
>>61096140
>Belgium
of -fucking- course
You guys literally fucking said that if a nation doesn't elect a leader you like you will embargo them, how do you consider that "democratic"?
>>61099807
>which is entirely on your own government to blame
this is the first step, if we don't leave then we've fallen at the first hurdle
>>61099613
>I can't read the 2 pages worth of information it takes to get a decent understanding of how the EU works.
ok
>>61099839
Bruxelles can't just enforce laws you don't want to implement.
See for example how V4 countries just outright refused to accept refugees.
>>61099845
i'm sorry
>>61099943
I forgive you Iberian brother.
>>61099807
>Your economy will fall as the market becomes uncertain because no one knows how the renegotiation will go.
Why is that a certainty? We had a recession inside the EU. The Southern and Eastern EU nations are economic disasters. Economic struggles can happen in and out, we'll just avoid having to bailout incompetent countries in the future.
>Your migrant problem won't be entirely fixed you won't be able to deport the migrants already there and you still get a lot of non EU immigrants which is entirely on your own government to blame.
It removes us from the EU and its "human rights" declarations, which are only becoming more and more damaging to the natives of nation states. The EU, headed by Germany, is determined to have more Muslims and Africans. Millions more. They will have passports in five years and will then be free to go wherever they want in the EU.
>If you wish to continue trading with European countries (and I assume you do because it's a big part of your economy) your companies will still have to adhere to the stupid EU beuracratic rules if they wish to place their products on your market.
We met those requirements anywhere with our own industrial standards. Despite what people would have you believe, we weren't using lead paint and asbestos underwear before your joining your rabble.
>>61099798
>European council
>345 points
I didn't know there were 345 countries in Yurop
>>61099931
link?
>>61099922
Which party has talked about the fucking Pakis and other muds who form rape gangs around your towns?
Why hasn't Farage made posters about the brown people instead of just screaming about the Poles.
>>61099936
Because it had little to do with the EU at first, it was a German project.
>>61099978
each member state has a weighted number of votes
>>61099936
they still have to abide with tons of other conditions. even if just for simple trade benefits. if the uk leaves, they can just start from scratch, they get a clean pass for everything. sure it'll cost a bunch (they'll go poor as shit for sure), but they regain the ability to do things completely their own way.
>>61099613
uk why? ;_; i was trying to defend you while defending myself as well
>>61099931
Link it then.
>decent understanding
Considering no one who works for the EU on a daily basis can even provide that, I don't see how a few pages of text will do it.
>>61099988
what?
>>61099968
>It removes us from "human rights" declarations
you're not even trying anymore
>>61099988
you're right about the pakis but he did talk about the refugees tho
>>61100033
The EU will demand free movement of workers if they want full access to the market like they did in the EU.
If they have to still accept the free movement of workers deal it already defeats one of the main arguments for leaving.
It'd be foolish to be lenient.
If Britain gets a substantially better deal than it has now then it's a signal to many other unsatisfied members that leaving could enable them to renegotiate a better deal.
IMO Brits should just lobby for restrictions on the free movement from within the EU by putting caps and quotas.
why did David Cameron have to negotiate laws that affect the British people from the leaders of other European countries?
>>61099988
Because you have to be political correct to some degree if you actually want people to vote for your party.
The National Front in France is the example. They actually got rid ot the founding holocaust-denier to create an appearance of correctness.
You can't expect people in serious countries to vote you in office if you make the display of power, racism and violence Golden Dawn makes in Greece.
>>61099981
This is pretty good
http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/europpblog/2016/06/21/is-the-eu-really-run-by-unelected-bureaucrats/
>>61100073
Those are Syrians, not Pakis.
It's foolish to point out "look at what's coming" and not talk about "look at what we already have".
Britain has taken very little of the wave it's obvious that it's just used for political points while avoiding some much more sensitive topics.
>>61100184
the EU would rather have the UK leave
>>61100184
>if they want full access to the market
that's what i'm saying, they'll probably say no and have to renegotiate this from start as well. it'll cost a fucking huge ton (not even counting the actual negotiations but just the huge worker loss), and the deal probably won't be as good as right now. but it'll be their own, which can mean a lot depending on what will happen in the far future.
it is foolish as fuck economically speaking, but it's a very british thing though. they were always reticent. let them have what they want. they'll bring it upon themselves, but they're grown up.
>>61100284
Personally, I would be happier if you were outside, just to stop hearing your EU-bitching every second Tuesday.
No offense intended.
>>61100188
probably they were against some principles or law or some shit like that
>>61100284
The EU has no control over that, it's up to your own people to decide.
You won't be getting a better trade deal though. I'm pretty sure they'd rather cut their losses with you and not allow you access than to give you a better deal than you have now.
This thread and nearly literally every discussion about the EU should be used as evidence as to why education on what the EU does should be compulsory education in EU countries.
Just like it should be compulsory education to learn how your own government + political system works in every country.
>>61100412
i agree tbqh. i'm impressed how it isn't a thing yet. i think it is a thing in belgium due to how complex things are over there
>>61100412
We have it
>>61099613
>>61099811
>ad hominems
What a great democratic tradition you have. Those quality debates really taught you how to argument.
>>61100336
I honestly believe the majority of the Brexiters problems and disatisfaction lies majorly in the hands of their elected MPs.
I think their politicians mostly used it as a scapegoat to shift blame and disatisfaction. It's definitely biting the tories in the ass now although imagine the chaos if the anger and lack of faith was turned on their own government.
>>61100544
well cameron always said the uk should be firmer but he never said they should leave. i guess everything went worse than what he expected, his popularity is low af rn. idk why, i think he's an ok chap for a politician
>>61100412
We have that in schools, it's called Knowledge about Society.
Too bad it's one of those subjects nobody gives a flying fuck about, the teacher and the principal included.
>>61100412
You don't have that?
>>61096260
the difference is that in EU a country can get an exemption from EU directives (there's difference between EU directive and EU law, the latter does not allow for exemptions)
>>61099460
>to reply to clueless retards because I know SHIT and you don't!
t. zealous wikipedia reader
>>61100660
I am surprised you do. I literally had to pass through University to learn something about it all.
In secondary, kids get these yearly panflets telling them about how marvellous the EU is with no critics or understanding about how it actually functions.
The people in poor EU countries benefit from free movement of workers when they become immigrants in a rich country. The ground rentiers and companies in the rich country also benefit. But the citizens of this country don't benefit, for them free movement means more competition on job and housing markets, more overcrowded cities.
The equalisation transfers are also a reason for someone in a poor country to like the EU.
>>61100752
>not being a zealous online encyclopedia and informative forums reader
holy shit m8 what are you even doing with your life
>>61100797
Whereas poor countries get the brain drain, a large fraction of the workforce leaves which endangers our social system
Local indigenous companies can't compete with the West
>>61100261
His argument falls down when he tries to compare the EU commission president and commission to the UK parliament and Cabinet
In the UK we elect 650 MPs and the leader of the largest party is asked to form a government. Then from these MPs the prime minister decides the cabinet. In the EU the leader of the Commission is not an elected MEP who had to win the public vote. Neither is the commission which is also made up of people who are not elected representatives that had to win public support
>>61100775
In history class you learn the branches of government and then the basics of how that translates to how our government works.
Later when the curriculum gets past the world wars you learn about some of the basic treaties that made the EU and again the basics of how it functions
>>61101054
but you're (you are) country's history is all about the government, though
>>61101111
We're taught a LOT of regional history before Belgium became a state (Salian Franks, HRE and French history that affects Flanders, being part of the Habsburg empire, 80-years war etc) and of course big international events and ancient civilizations.
There's about a dozen periods dedicated to that government stuff in the 6 years off secondary school
>>61101336
>>61101356
>We're taught a LOT of regional history before Belgium became a state
well yeah every euro country has this. i even learned about charlemagne despite him being completely irrelevant for the history of my country. but the smaller part about your country as it came to be has all to do with government, so it makes sense
it also makes sense the eu headquarters are there too
>>61101336
EU isn't a federation though, but a confederation
>>61101422
Sure, but was your history class so busy it couldn't fit those couple of hours in?
>>61101584
you have no idea how much of this "we wuz sea empire n shit" bullcrap they forcefeed on us
i remember i had a whole month on the wars against the netherlands, only to realize years later that we had actually fought the people currently living in flanders (the spanish netherlands)
>>61101667
The Spanish Netherlands also included the Netherlands at first.
You can cut down on the 80 years war for starters
>>61101807
yes but it wasn't the united provinces that started the war iirc (though they did occupy brazil).
we could cut down on a bunch of stuff, like the "we wuz so influential shit". the part when they finish and they start talking about how stuff is now and what the future holds is so lazily written. "we wuz decolonization we wuz european union we wuz so influential 7th spoken language!! portugal stronk!! (nevermind brazil)" you can tell this was written by a humanities teacher, not an actual historian
>>61098322
>you Brexiters would whine
M8, it won't matter anymore, we won't be whining because we won't be part of it.
>>61099512
>315. All throughout Europe fringe parties rise on the backs of extremists and gain themselves exposure. The closer they get to power the more they have to tone down their extremism if they desire to acquire more power, and by the time they get to power they are moderate. Everything that must be done to reach that goal is done: ministers are fired, previously-held positions are discarded and even denied, unholy alliances are forged, and so on and so forth, until at last the party's program is rewritten to be entirely unrecognizable. This is also why the right and the left, though they start out as fiercely opposed, eventually become essentially indistinguishable. This is not proof of corruption of the right or of the left, but of the democratic process working as intended. For those who say that democracy is not working are plainly wrong: democracy is working just fine, the difference being that its work is not beneficial but pernicious. The simple fact is that the mediocre (which is what the moderates are: the middle can never be extremist, for it and only it DEFINES what is moderate) will never elect anything other than mediocrity. This proves that democratic parties are shaped by the electorate, and not the other way around. But this is decadent. This is the opposite of leadership. For leadership is supposed to be that function which shapes those who are being led, not the other way around. Otherwise what are the "leaders" leading? Whoever heard of the sheep dictating the behavior of the shepherd? of workers their employer's? of children that of their parents? In a democracy, it is the shepherd who is being herded, and the embezzlement dimension endemic in the political class is not proof of its decadence BUT THE LAST REMAINING VESTIGES OF SELF-RESPECT AND HEALTH.
>>61102003
>we won't be part of it.
I'm sorry to tell you but you aint gonna win. Not because your Brexit is "wrong" or whatever the fuck but because your country's media is on full shill and the fucking murder aint gonna help. Honestly Im really against Brexit and I think you guys are subhuman cunts, but seeing all the fucking merchants licking their fingers and orgasming at the idea of a not successful referendum makes me fucking uneasy. Maybe you guys are onto something...
>>61099781
I really don't give a fuck about Russia and I'm not anti-communist
I'm opposed to the state socialist dictatorship that we've had before 1989
>>61102521
slovakia is a beautiful country, i want to visit someday
>>61097510
>its a meme
no its not, you can only properly explain our system in the context of a Constitutional Republic with heavy democratic aspects.
>>61096140
my problem with the EU is that its basically a big bloated Yugoslavia that is already more unstable and destined for failure. Its just turning into a cancerous organization that is becoming as annoying as the UN
>>61102336
>because your country's media is on full shill
The Sun, The Daily Express, The Daily Telegraph, Daily Mail, The Sunday Times, The Spectator
They all support Brexit
>>61102542
Thanks, that's very nice, but I should get to sleep.
>>61102743
Yeah but the legit media and not the yellow press are on the remain side:
The Observer
The Guardian
The Financial Times
Daily Mirror
The Times
The Mail on Sunday
Obviously on paper it looks like xenophobe retards are the ones that want to leave. But I hate unilateral attacks on a certain group just cause their ideas are popular. I really do believe that we have to reevaluate what the fuck is going on, but the brits are being fucking cunts about it nonetheless.
>>61102915
Look up their readership numbers. It's insignificant compared to tabloids.
Brexiters are very loud and obnoxious. I can see why those with more moderate views are afraid to speak up,
