>be european
>have the most beautiful churches and cathedrals in the world
>don't attend them
How does one explain this?
it's hard to prop up a ring of pedophiles on the basis that they have pretty churches
>>60721061
Going to Church is boring.
Beacuse after 1000 or whatever years of Jesus faggotry your cunt matures and stops believing in fairie tales.
*tips*
>>60721134
This. I stopped going after I started falling asleep during mass all the time and waking up to the priest staring at me
>Going to Church is boring.
But /int/ told me Italians, Poles and Spaniards are still Jesusfags in comparison to the more progressive Muslim Western Europe or did they start tipping fedoras as well?
>>60721297
Depends on the region, in the south they are much more religious, but in Catalonia the fedora tipping is getting overboard.
I try to go atleast every fortnight.
>>60721061
not enough holidays for tourism
>>60721297
Yeap.
Over here people are still jesusfags. However, people just go to church because it's a social obligation.
Maybe the church should reform and try to make mass more interesting
>>60721297
Yeah what he said >>60721960
>>60721297
Nobody in the West is Christian anymore. Christianity morphed into secular liberalism.
>>60721986
like the dancing and negro clapping thing they did in USA?
no thanks
>>60722111
Makes me cringe, man.
>the ancestors of modern day Europeans used to fight in crusades in the name of God, we're very religious, and built these beautiful buildings.
Can't make this up, holy shit, I'm dying, lol. When Europe is 100 Muslim/atheist hybrid mix, people will look at these buildings like how we look at ruins of the Aztecs. They will wonder how they're unenlightened ancestors built those bitches.
>>60721061
Something like golden priests with wooden chalices to golden chalices with wooden priests. My church is rather small but always has high yield attendances.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aah_ITLw3R8
>>60722111 (checked)
Doesn't need to go that far ofc
>>60721763
C of E or Catholic? Also whereabouts?
The church had its time in the sun. Time to grow up now lads.
>>60721986
They tried to in the 60s, and it turned into a quasi-protestant joke.
The RCC will never change the core Mass, as it is sacrosanct and their teaching cannot change. Unfortunately it's up to you to get on board, or not. The Bible doesn't change, so the morals it teaches are timeless and don't stop being right. If the Catholic Church changes core doctrine, which it has never done in 2000 years, does that mean it's been teaching the wrong stuff for the whole time prior?
>>60722053
You mean Protestantism?
>>60722704
they don't need to change what is taught, only the way it is done. Unfortunately this is near impossible to be done without corrupting the message
The old churches are all tourist places. So they are still be visited. Or are you telling me you actually believe in that stuff in the current year?
*tips*
>>60722704
honestly making yourself more "modern" doesn't get more people. The people who say they don't go because le social issue of the day still won't go after it's been resolved.
My dad went to Germany and the cathedral there was packed to the brim.
Most Euros feel isolated from God thanks to WWII. For a long time Europe was doing very well and riding high on top of the world. Then they realized that they were nothing. Same thing happens to USA right now. As countries get weak they start losing their faith. However, eventually it bounces back to a different state, nothing ever stays the same forever.
>>60722779
Churches are packed in the US though.
>>60722774
Catholicism was actually seeing rapid growth in the United States in the 40's and 50's, which levelled out just after the Second Vatican Council in 1962.
>>60722809
I don't think so, not usually. It depends on the Church. Same as in Europe and Australia. Some are very full, many are mostly empty and need to go through mergers etc.
Europeans are too rich and prosperous to need such religions with focus on supernatural beliefs.
What faith and zeal they need they find in progressivism or Marxism.
>>60722779
>As countries get weak they start losing their faith.
I'm not sure you can apply this to the USSR and those countries that were formerly part of it. Communism definitely had a hand in killing religion in Eastern europe.
I still go to church regularly.
For books.
>>60722896
True they murdered a lot of religious people. Communists hate religion because they want people to worship their "glorious leader" instead. But honestly, even though they tried hard to kill all the religious they can't kill them completely either. When Buddhist JApan tried to kill Christian there was the "Hidden Christians" who survived. Ancient pagans in Europe also survived and you can see it in the "great yule goat" in Sweden, representing Thor.
>>60722899
Maastricht looks pretty. Do you attend university?
>>60722774
This desu, it's painful watching the European state churches trying to progressivise themselves to try keep themselves relevant. If anything it will have the opposite effect
>>60722959
No.
>>60721061
they're prettier from the outside desu
>>60722958
>But honestly, even though they tried hard to kill all the religious they can't kill them completely either.
No single body can alone but time definitely does. Celtic paganism is a joke in Britain. Christianity will inevitably become a cultural artefact, for better or worse I don't know.
I think in the post-WW2 era people prefer to turn to religion in dire times. I don't think it has the role of social cohesion (arguably more-so conformity) it once had, certainly not here at least
>>60722745
Catholicism is very much based on self-sacrificial discipline. Protestantism is based on self-governance, and being in charge of your own worship, rather than a central Church body making sure you're on the right track.
It's essentially SJW "we know better than the establishment" thinking. Case in point: practicing Catholics will go to great lengths to attend Mass once a week, as they adhere to such an obligation. Even the most practicing Protestants, like my dad, have no qualms in skipping church because they're "really tired" or "too busy".
Or how Protestants claim they're contrite of sin, because they prayed once. Whereas a Catholic makes a real effort not to sin, because they don't want to face the shame and red-facedness of going into the confessional and saying aloud what they've done. I'm not saying Protestants can't really be sorry, but it's a lot easier to convince yourself you're sorry if you don't even have to do anything.
There's also this >>60722964, the Nordic state churches bend their message to appease the liberal society. It doesn't attract people, it makes people walk over them and not give a shit about religion.
People bring up the idea of Catholic guilt, which is true, Catholic practices do exist to make people seriously consider their sins and follow the faith properly. But that pressure does work in making people think twice about sin, so it's not pointless.
So while traditional Catholic liturgy looks cold, strict and austere from the outside, it must be kept in that reverent way to prevent a casual spirit among believers.
Pic: St Patrick's, the cathedral in my city, and the largest church building in Australia.
>>60721678
Are you reatarded? You don't have to be religious to be in religion class, people do it because it's easier than ethics and there's no exams.
>>60723093
UK in general is going through some major shifts. That's why I said bounce back in a different form. I doubt Brits 100 years ago had any idea what UK now looks like. And similar we don't know what UK in another 100 years looks like. Its a common theory that Islam will rise up in Europe, however that is mostly exaggerated but I think it will be sizeable. There will always be Christians probably. Who knows maybe there will be neo-druids too, or maybe there will be another new NEW atheism movement. We'll see what the future holds together.
>>60722869
this
>>60723295
Nobody believes this whenever it gets brought up, but it's entirely possible that Christianity will come back. People seem to think that everyone was Christian, and then some time in the 1960s they started to become atheists and that's where we are now.
In reality, Christianity in Europe has gone through many phases and fluctuated. In the 1800s around the time, there was a huge movement of Deism. Then before and during WWI, a lot of families came back to Christianity, which is why the 20th century is associated with neat, Christian, church-going nuclear families. It wasn't always like that, and the current drop in religion, although major, isn't something the world hasn't seen before.
It is not inconceivable that religion will come back. Mark my words, over the next couple of decades there will be a resurgence in Christianity as Europeans identify with the cultural roots. It will start as a political act from agnostics and atheists, but if a lot of people hang around churches long enough, some of them are going to take it seriously and see the merit in it.
>>60723514
>It is not inconceivable that religion will come back.
Problem is, now there's an influx of immigration across the EU, of Muslims from the Levant, NA, and SSA. Can you honestly see them full integrating, becoming part of society, and eventually adopting Christianity?
Let's be honest, no one in the EU has any balls to tell the mudslimes to fuck off, and that's just one major obstacle with Christianity gaining a foothold again. While Deism did have a large following, it didn't entirely rule out the existence of God, which modern atheism along with Marxism, seems to do.
>>60722774
Absolutely this. Young people most of all want authenticity. If they leave the church it's because they think it's fake and has nothing to offer them, not because you put electric guitars in and treat worship like a rock concert.
The cause of church decline is general apathy towards spirituality or even doing anything social, moral relativism that tells us a mosque is just as good as a church and a belief that societal progress is the most important virtue, which the church is considered to be fighting against.
>>60723634
With any luck, the EU is on the way out. The UK is looking evermore likely to leave in ten days, and Denmark, France, and the Netherlands are all increasingly dissatisfied with the EU as well. Europe is seeing a rise in right wing politicians with backbone, but with the relevance of WWII fascism to keep them in line. There is a good case for optimism for Europe.
>>60723514
I think though that even if Christianity becomes embraced as an essential part of western identity in opposition to multiculturalism, people are too lazy and too comfortable to bother attending.
Look at Russia where the church was revived from a near non existent shell in the USSR. Hardly any Russians even attend church nowadays, although it's now considered an important part of their identity.
>>60721061
The church is the people not the building.
>>60723837
>>60723763
But would it be enough to get enough followers again? People have become too lazy to attend mass (unfortunately I fall into this category), that even though it may be revived, it'll become a cultural remnant, like >>60723781
said.
>>60723941
Who knows. I used to not attend mass, then I did once and have regularly attended since. Most people find it boring, but if people are led to the church, some will find a certain mystery to it, and enjoy going. If they really want to make a statement about standing with their culture, they might attend to be an example to others. If someone becomes a Catholic and takes it seriously, they will adhere to the obligation to partake in Mass weekly (it's actually a sin to deliberately miss Mass).
I can picture a hipster movement of young people attending really traditional churches, getting involved with all the sacraments, and wearing crosses as a vintage culture sort of thing. It's vain but it could lead some to see the beauty in the faith and take it seriously.
>>60721061
Because God is dead and no one cares. If there is a hell, i'll see you there.
>>60724157
>(it's actually a sin to deliberately miss Mass).
I know, it's a mixture of laziness and classes + family issues interfering.
I could see hipsters trying to do it, but it'll probably happen later on, when there are fewer church goers in the West, but if it does, they'll probably cause a minor reaction of people actually attending church and hopefully blossom from there.
>>60721061
byuutifulu
>>60724184
are you not scared of death?
Nietzche talked about something to replace religion right? What can replace it?
>>60724713
Nothing. The Gates of Hades may never prevail against Christ's Church. Nothing in history has united people like Christian practice, and nothing has divided people like Protestantism and Islam.
>>60721061
Because we muslim now, thanks Obama
No I went once and feel asleep woke up everyone was hymning or something freaked me out 2bh so I just got up and left.
Church never again
>tfw you cannot worship/pray in silence anymore because of the activities for tourists are loud
>middle-ages music
>>60724579
Yes, Catholic churches have been reduced to ornaments for tourists to gawk at. Modern Christians are superficial as japs.
>>60726267
At the old tourist churches where I live, they clear out all the Asians with cameras before Mass starts, so they're not roaming around and being annoying. And even between services, it's still as quiet as a library.
And it's not middle ages music, it's distinctly worship music, and people still write songs in that style today. Even in the middle ages, church hymns were their own genre, and grew separately from the development of other mainstream renaissance music. Besides, it's more substantial than shitty modern clappy alt-rock Protestant trite.
>>60726221
Get the printed out booklet with the hymns and readings in it, listen to what they say, and sing along with the hymns. If you aren't actually paying attention and observing the things they do, then of course it's not going to be interesting. But if you get involved and take notice, it can be more engaging.
>>60721986
There need to be better feasts and public celebrations to draw people in, like they had in medieval times. Or like the semana santa processions in southern spain.
>>60726487
there are, but people are not interested.
>>60726374
Not even religious but Protestants are pure cancer. Especially the evangelical kind you find in the US. They're always the ones trying to be hip and cool while doing the most pants on head retarded cringy shit like speaking in tongues.
I am an atheist, but I yearn that with the fall of religion, so also falls many of our traditions. I wish there were some way of maintaining the holidays and community that religion forms, without actually having dogma or supernatural beings.
>>60726546
The holidays won't go anywhere. They're still all celebrated in Europe I'm sure. Atleast Christmas and shit like church for weddings.
>>60722809
Not right ones. Mostly heathen evangelical and non-Episcopal churches
>>60726580
Definitely, to some extent. Though the community and friendliness of the people that often came with religion is being swept away.
Maybe the solution would be if everyone started being as nice as possible, regardless of whether or not people are of their race or religion.
>>60721061
Superior intellect. Not as easy to manipulate.
>be the catholic church
>tax 10% of the wealth of europe every year for 2 millenia
>kill people and generally be a shitter to force people to go to church with their own money
>build nice churches to flaunt the money they stole
>wonder why nobody goes to church when the state doesn't back you up anymore
>>60726623
There are unironically these places called atheist churches where people basically go to church without all the superstition shit. I think they are getting more popular. May look into it.
>>60726523
Plus, the more traditional Protestants in Europe bend to public belief so much that nobody respects them anymore. Their theological laxity has made people throw it all out, because Protestants believe that peoples' worship should be left to them, rather than the church teaching core doctrine, and guiding them to ensure they're on the right track. Catholicism upholds strict principles for adherence, so when people practice Catholicism, they're actually held to account.
>>60726417
>But if you get involved and take notice, it can be more engaging
The only interesting part of the mass is when the priest is doing pseudo small talk called homily. If I wanted to hear interesting stories and experiences, I would just talk to people. I would hear more besides one sided speech and stories I'm not interested in. At times, you would even get something tangible out of it.
>>60722053
Boy you're so wrong. Everyone above 30 here is religious as fuck.
>>60721986
I don't see how it could possibly work. Mass is boring because the only damn part that ever changes is the sermon. You'd need to ditch an hour's worth of rituals and I'm not sure the church would approve of the new 10 minute mass.
>>60726798
Just the south Italians though right?
>>60726707
>People will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, proud, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, without love, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not lovers of the good, treacherous, rash, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God— having a form of godliness but denying its power. Have nothing to do with such people.
>They are the kind who worm their way into homes and gain control over gullible women, who are loaded down with sins and are swayed by all kinds of evil desires, always learning but never able to come to a knowledge of the truth. Just as Jannes and Jambres opposed Moses, so also these teachers oppose the truth. They are men of depraved minds, who, as far as the faith is concerned, are rejected.
– 2 Timothy 3
We know that people will be attracted to the religion's outward form, but deny the core principles of God. The NT tells us this, so that doesn't surprise me. The idea of attending church appeals to them, but actual adherence and rule-following is too hard, i.e. Protestants.
What would an atheist church even talk about? I can't think of anything more pointless. The point of church is to keep your faith strong and commemorate Christ.
>"Morning everyone. Just a weekly reminder that God's not real, in case you were starting to think otherwise. Go in peace to love and serve yourselves."
>>60726723
The priest draws from scripture and is an educated man of God, so it's different from talking to "just some guy." Think of it like a TED talk, he offers his view on how the Gospel reading from that day can be applied to our lives.
>>60726856
The idea is that people want the community aspect of the church. Why do you think a person devoid of religion automatically only thinks about serving themselves?
>>60726856
>unironically quoting scripture
Is this bait?
>>60726837
Central Italians too. And it's not like northerners are fedoras like the French or Germans, they're still pretty religious as well.
>>60726972
If you want a community, join a book club or sports team. I thought atheists liked having no obligations for their religious views.
If atheist churches exist, then their "OR LACK THEREOF" claim goes out the window, atheism is officially a religion which people identify with, study, adhere to, and even make No True Scotsman claims about other atheists.
>>60726974
Yes, I quoted scripture, and am indeed a practicing Catholic. Does it threaten you knowing people like me exist everywhere, think differently to you, and frequent this site?
>>60721061
>attending because the building looks purdy
Lmao USA-North everyone
>>60727135
I wouldn't know because I've never been to church, but I imagine it would be very different from a club. I was under the impression that people in churches take helping eachother and even outsiders seriously. Can't an atheist wish to preserve the beneficial non-religious things about churches?
I go to a Catholic church which used to be Anglican until the locals stopped going there and it was due to be shut down in the mid-70s. Then we (the Polish) took it over.
I go to Latin mass at 8am every Sunday.
It's happening all over the country.
>>60721061
Because Europeans are the most educated people in that planet hence the least religious along with Japanese and so.
>>60721061
What is the point of going inside? They look best from the outside
>>60721061
I don't really want to attend them, I just want to visit them as historical landmarks, much like going to natural landmarks like the Grand Canyon or Niagara Falls.
>>60722704
But the interpretations of bible are changing. It was used to justify crusades, burning the heretics and apostates, slavery and now people try to close eyes on uncomfortable verses of bible and cherrypick only good ones. It's the same to Qur'an actually. The only reasons why do westerners don't have Christian terrorism is that they are too rich and stable.
>>60727230
>I go to a Catholic church which used to be Anglican
Ironic. At least it is still a Christian church and has not been turned into a mosque, nightclub or other dens of sin.
>>60727230
fix my toilet piotr
>>60721061
My local cathedral is indeed beautiful, but every time I go, I just get incredibly pissed off at seeing the tourist shop inside the church.
>>60727182
That's what charities are for. If you're non-religious, don't waste time making rituals for yourself. If I wasn't religious, the last thing I'd be doing is attending mass.
A lot of people have tried to "take the good parts" out of Christ's message, and forget the supernatural miracle afterlife stuff. C.S. Lewis posed a "Trilemma" argument, whereby if you accept Christ's existence and good message, but not his divinity, you therefore believe he was either mentally ill or evil.
>>60727230
Whereabouts in the UK are you? Are there many TLM churches around?
I live in Melbourne, and there's a TLM church in Caulfield North which I visited on Easter Sunday this year. It was full of traditionalist, serious Catholics, unlike the casual Christmas and Easter Catholics you get at modern post-VII churches in the suburbs here.
>>60727249
>implying christianity isn't still big in switzerland, italy, ireland, and eastern europe
Education has little to do with it. U.S. states with high education rankings, like Massachusetts and New York, are also among the most Catholic. It's about upbringing and lifestyle. If the government normalises anti-religious stuff, then people will grow accustomed to doing them and get pissed off at religion for telling them it's wrong. If they are born into an economically prosperous country where everything they need to live comfortably is at hand, materialism satisfies their every desire and they see no need for religion. Plus, a lot of Europe was affected by the Protestant Reformation, which introduced Pushover Christianity™ to millions, and made religion easy to ignore.
>>60727367
>here the state owns every pre-1905 church
>he can do whatever he wants with these churches
>keeps them for money
sad desu
>>60727436
What would you prefer they do with it?
>>60727436
When did religion stop being banned in France?
>>60727456
Give them to religious organisations so they can use them as places of worship?
>>60723634
Why do they have to adopt Christianity? Muslims matter nothing in a case of restoring the religion in Europe. In Russia we have been living together for the last 500 years not talking about MENA Christians living in MENA for ages or tons of countries in Acrica which have 50/50 muslim/christian population both being religious.
god doesnt deserve such beautiful building to praise him in.
Being an atheist means to scrap the very idea of religion. Non-religious along with some silly ideas like anti-religious """"discussions"""", atheist """"churches"""" holy shit it just doesn't count. You're blatantly saying that you still have some attachment to your past religious beliefs by doing these.
>>60727396
Shut up limey fuck, it's better Catholic Poles than getting your churches converted to mosques for mudskins.
>>60727396
My grandfather came to the UK during WW2 tbqh (fought as part of the Polish II Corps in Italy), I'm third generation though my wife (also Polish) came here in 2011.
>>60727430
>Whereabouts in the UK are you? Are there many TLM churches around?
There's one Tridentine mass every Sunday at our parish and we have a little Una Voce affiliated group going, does that count as "TLM"?
I'm in Bedfordshire.
>>60727396
At least he's arrived and improved the UK in some way, by restoring old buildings for a decent purpose. Better a Catholic Church than an Anglican one anyway.
>>60721135
>this guy
>"matures past" Paradise Lost and Handel's Messiah
>advances to internet memes
>>60723837
But I hate people... Seriously, if I were basing my faith on the "Christians" in my church, I would be atheist long ago.
>>60727396
your toilet of an island that rumors itself as a "great empire" is beyond fixing.
Muhammad
>>60727557
muh heritage
>>60727430
Again, it's (probably) about the direct connection you get with the people attending this "church" with you, it's not like a charity where you donate into it from a distance or you volunteer directly, there's no middle ground there where you just get to know normal people from your community. I would never waste my time with this personally, I'm just trying to rationalize it.
Also, it has nothing to with taking the good parts out of Christianity, it's about the church system itself. Many other religions have their own churches.
>>60727430
>take the good parts
That's all the modern Christianity is about, and it is the same to moderate or liberal Islam. People ingnore obsolete, violent and retarded verses despite all the text is seen as the message from God. It's the best proof that all religions are false: people always interpret them according to culture and society they live, and when people try to follow texts literally we have Islamists, Uganda Christian radicals burning witches and so.
>>60727352
The bible is a very varied and discontinuous entity with multiple known and unknown authors. This naturally leads to multiple interpretations and is reflected in how many different kinds of churches there are. Meanwhile the quaran is the complete opposite. It was written by one man and it covers all points of discussion and questions someone might have while at the same time being very consistent. This is reflected by the fact that there are only 2 major denominations in islam and their biggest point of difference was entirely political, not faith related.
Also there are no christian terrorists because of the whole pacifism thing that is a pretty big deal. Also because christianity has by definition co-existed with secular political powers instead of supplanting them unlike in islam, so there's no direct incentive for anyone to want to change the political landscape through violence to move more towards a christian society.
Of course if you want to nitpick you can always start banging out examples of crazy americana baptists bombing or shooting up abortion clinics but then you're defining christianity through american baptist denominations which is pretty much the most cuckish thing I can imagine. Might as well define the roman legacy of europe through the feces of a gallian slave.
>>60727669
nothing wrong with burning witches
>>60721061
I haven't been baptised, that's why. I sometimes read prayer books at home, though. And I enjoy photos of churches.
>>60727699
protestants did
>>60727712
>I haven't been baptised
fucking degenerate
>>60727557
"TLM" basically just means a mass in Latin, where the priest faces away from the people. Do you do mass in English as well?
Bedfordshire, that's near Cambridgeshire, isn't it? I've heard that Peterborough is an area with a lot of recent Polish expats.
>>60727655
If you want to get involved with the community, then go to a real church.
>>60727669
The Catholic Church has have had the same doctrine since the very start. Their role is basically to compile the Bible and Christ's teachings into a doctrine which is always evolving, and can answer for every aspect of ones' life. It basically packages Christ's message into straight up guidelines on how to live your life, and what you should or shouldn't do.
The Orthodox Churches fulfil a similar role, except their doctrine is less rigidly defined than that of the Catholic Church, so you don't get as many straight answers.
But if you call all that "just taking the good parts", then I'm please to tell you that every aspect of Christianity is a "good part".
Protestants are the ones who actually pick and choose. They disregarded seven books of scripture that they thought were too "out there", claimed that the rest of scripture is infallible, but still continue to pick and choose what they like and don't like. That's not Christianity, it's agnostic humanism. Appreciating the outward form of religion, without adhering to its core principles.
They also have a history of burning witches, throwing Catholics out of windows, outlawing interracial marriage for no reason despite claiming it's what God wants, and besieging a German town and killing anyone who wasn't them.
>>60727712
Were you raised with any religious affiliation? You can attend church without having been baptised, just don't take the bread and wine.
>>60727805
>Bulgarian evangelising
>>60727873
i'm a catholic
>>60727685
>It was written by one man
It was not. It was composed by Usman 20 years after Mohamed.
>covers all points of discussion and questions someone might have while at the same time being very consistent
Not really. Hadithes cover a lot, but the Qur'an itself covers only basic concepts. And it's totally not consistent. You have contradicting verses (i.e. "No forcibility in religion" and "You have your religion and I have mine" are combined with war time verses Islamists are backing on), for many of them it's unclear are they universal or linked to the special situation and place and so.
>only 2 major denominations in islam
Kek. It's like sayin there are only 3 major denomination in Christianity. One of the main problems with MENA is sectarian violence which is rooted in a big number of sects in Islam.
>biggest point of difference was entirely political, not faith related.
At first, but now they are completely different. Shias don't recognize Sunnah
>Also there are no christian terrorists because of the whole pacifism thing that is a pretty big deal
It's only because stability and wealth. You can not call Christianity pacifist until 19th centuries I guess.
>christianity has by definition co-existed with secular political powers
Not really. Pope power was seen as predominant by Catholics over secular power as well as in Islam caliph power was seen as in theory predominant over sultan power and as time passed by caliph and pope came to meaning nothing and all the power concentrated in secular hands.
>>60727960
what
>>60721061
>>60727960
Only joking famalam.
Are there many Catholics in Bulgaria or is it primarily Orthodox?
>>60728016
>1960s - present church design
Just end it now
>>60727873
It's false. Catholic church called for crusades at one point, banned books and burned heretics at one point, justified slavery at another point, and now we have nice people like Francisco. It all has been changing over the course of history as well as orthodoxy (well, orthodoxy is really more rigid, but still). People ignore verses like "No peace, but a sword" and "Anyone outside the Christ is an enemy to the Christ" or "I came to divide you" or interpret them peaceful way. And I am not even talking about Old Testament: in 19th century Ham story justified racism and slavery and now it does not.
>>60728051
new churches here are built in the same style. it's terrible
>>60728051
Lol. Our churches design is weird. They all look like mosques without the minarets (well, it's actually opposite, because Orthodoxy and Islam interacted a lot and borrowed many thing from each other, and the mosque architecture was borrowed in a much grade from orthodox churches.)
>>60727991
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rakovski_%28town%29#Religion
>>60728051
there's only like 2 towns that are all catholic, everything else is Orthodox
>>60727873
The Poles tend to call "TLM" either the Tridentine mass or extraordinary form. The parish* in question caters to the local Polish community so the Novus Ordo masses are in Polish, though I attend church there mostly because There's another Catholic church closer to where I live but there's no Latin mass there and attendance and community in general is poor.
*Technically, that is to say canonically, it's not a parish but a branch of the Polish Catholic Mission subject to the Polish episcopate via an agreement with the English hierarchy. The fact that Polish Catholics operate separately from local Catholics is a bit of a contentious issue in the community lately.
>>60728141
God bless, brother
They are pretty to look at, can't that be enough?
>>60721061
I've been to church ceremony only once, it was the Protestant church in Old Jerusalem but it was beautiful, I'd visit every Sunday if I could.
>>60727805
fucking tatar
>>60727873
No, I was raised into an agnostic family. Well, my mom's agnostic (collects religious books and items, says she believes in higher powers) and my dad's an atheist (the Church hating kind).
>>60728076
The Church has done a lot of questionable things, and there have been corrupt popes over the centuries as well, one even straight up said that Christianity is a scam. But the core doctrine has never changed, i.e. what's a sin and what isn't.
That's actually quite remarkable, that in 2000 years, no pope has come in and said "I want to bang a prostitute, I declare premarital sex not a sin anymore". Or "I declare that it's okay to rape kids, and absolve all paedophile priests of their sins." It's a testament to the Church itself, which is still the largest religious institution in the world. In Matthew, Jesus says to Peter that the Gates of Hades shall not overcome it.
The Crusades were believed to be willed by God, in other words the Pope discerned that God was issuing an exemption of "Thou shall not kill" to protect his Church's existence.
>>60728144
So is it in communion with Rome?
>>60728141
>>60728150
Yeah, God bless and best of luck mate.
>>60728301
>So is it in communion with Rome?
Yes.
But it's subject to the Catholic church hierarchy back in Poland instead of the local English & Welsh Catholic church hierarchy.
christianity is a foreign religion
>>60728301
>what's a sin and what isn't.
Lol. Why was not it sin to enslave black people and it has became sin later? Why was not it sin to forcibly baptise people and now it's sin? I can go and go on m80.
>I declare that it's okay to rape kids
And the age of coming to the age was changing all the history.
You have to be retarded to be religious in 2016. And if people outside the West have excuse (poor education and poverty) there are no excuses for western believers.
>>60728356
Tell me about paganism.
>>60728296
Well, there are plenty of Catholic churches around. I would say to visit one and chat with the priest if you're interested in getting more involved.
The Catholic Church has a thing called RCIA for adults who enter the church and want to be baptised, where they just teach you about the beliefs and
>>60728333
Oh I see, so it's governed by a Polish diocese, rather than a British diocese?
>>60728359
When was it okay to enslave blacks? Empires did a lot of things regardless of what the church said. Next you'll tell me that the Church supported the Nazis.
The Catholic doctrine is like a river, over time it gets deeper and wider, but it never switches direction. The doctrine evolves when the need arises, i.e. when a particular issue that couldn't have already been accounted for comes up.
Why do I need an excuse to be religious? Mind your own business. As if someone raised on Russian education would understand anything about theology and spirituality anyway.
>>60721061
>be Saudi
>have the most beautiful mosques and Muslim heritage sites
>demolish them
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Destruction_of_early_Islamic_heritage_sites_in_Saudi_Arabia
>>60728579
I don't get it, do Muslims not care about their heritage or historically significant buildings?
They seem to love destroying shit.
>>60728680
Saudis are just kikes
>>60728489
I may do that at some point.
>>60728489
>Oh I see, so it's governed by a Polish diocese, rather than a British diocese?
It (along with most Polish "parishes" in England and Wales) is governed by a vicar delegate appointed by the Polish Bishop's Conference. Kind of like in an apostolic vicarate, which is a weird arrangement though it dates back to the 19th century.
Black church communities are fun and full of life. It would be better if we had it like that, instead of feeling like we were going to a funeral every sunday.
>implying my country has cathedrals
idk my family hasn't been religious for generations, would be weird to just pick up catholicism like this no ?
besides if i converted to something i'd probably become a jew t b h
>>60728943
Yeah niggas keep it real. Scandinavians are stale faggots. Nobody invites you to parties.
*tips fedora*
>>60728987
If it has episcopal polity (which Lutheranism, Catholicism and Orthodoxy all have), then it has dioceses, and therefore has a cathedral for each one.
Christinaty brought civil wars and foreign opression to my people.
Not even edgy neopagan, it's just historicaly true.
>>60721986
That's not a church.
>>60729160
>get sucked in by protestant lies
>literally throw catholics out a high window
>start the thirty years war
>"Christianity brought civil wars and foreign oppression to my people"
>>60721061
idk it doesnt sound safe to go to public events anymore you never know who´s got an AK
>>60721061
But we do, we go, take some pictures, attend to guides, learn something... You know, tourism, dont you have that in your country?
>>60729160
>good goy religion is bad adopt homosexuality instead
>>60728680
Saudis are sectarians. Google about wahhabit or salafi sect. They are real barbarians.
>>60729221
Who the fuck would bring an AK-47 to a Finnish church?
>>60729225
"Attend" means to be in regular attendance as a parishioner.
>>60724713
Believe in the state did, thats what fascism and communism were in effect.
>>60729221
Just carry one yourself.
pinkpistol.org
Most beautiful church/cathedral we have imo
Runners up are Bristol and St Pauls.
>tfw Henry VIII destroyed all our Abbeys
>>60729353
He was a wanker.
>>60729365
I'll say
>>60729353
Lichfield Cathedral is nice. I knew a guy in high school who was from Lichfield.
>>60729279
And when that failed, nothing remained.
From promised afterlife to promised heaven on earth to "well at least have fun before we die".
>>60729205
The many schisms and the resulting bickering are a feature of christinity. It cannot stay united unless apowerful state enforces it.
Before protestantism, you had valentiantians and other gnistics, arianists, nestorians, miaphysites and many more.
No other religion has so many branches.
>>60729461
In other words,
>god worship
>state worship
>self worship
>>60729484
A lotof the smaller branches had nice ideas, a shame they had to go.
>>60729365
Makes me sad desu
>>60729452
I've never heard of this place, but that cathedral is v.nice
>>60729496
Exactly.
Sad, isn't it?
>>60729227
Czechs killed because of christinity: tens of thousands
Czechs killed by homosexuality: 0
I actually think Shlomo is right.
>>60721135
>country matures past Christianity
>into Islam
>>60726267
>He cant appreciate medieval sacred music
Fuck off holy shit.
>>60729601
you're in a church not in a medieval fair reenactment
>>60728680
Don't question why all arabs hate saudis, don't question why the sauds are the west #1 ally, remember, all muslims are shitskins that want you dead and rape your women.
>>60728150
Are you actually Catholic, or are you Catholic in the way most French people I know are, where they attend Mass on holidays, get ash on their forehead, and act like they get to be guiltier than everyone because they haven't confessed in 15 years?
>>60729272
or to murican gay club :^) or to paris :^) you´re not gonna get a first warning for allahu akhbars
>>60729708
I am actually Catholic.
why
>>60721986
>brussels city hall
>a church
nice try at baiting, SA-nigger
>>60729708
That's pretty much all Catholics aside from their old women.
>>60729514
Which ones?
Hope you don't mention gnostics a.k.a. late antique church of scientology
>>60729627
It's tradition and something that's been done for hundreds of years. What do you expect them to play, the garbage that Protestant churches play?
For a country with such deep history in sacred music (Machaut and the entire Notre Dame school of polyphony) you sure don't know how to appreciate it.
>>60729755
where did I say it was sacred music ? I never said that.
>>60729484
The overwhelming majority were Catholic and united under the church. Protestantism opened the floodgates for any old shit to come out and call itself a church.
>>60729527
I'm pretty sure Lichfield is somewhere close to Birmingham.
>>60729529
I think so. The last two are both equally depressing.
>>60729627
>current year
Why is old music any worse than modern shit?
>>60729714
At least you would die a martyr if you got shot in a house of God. There were people in the middle ages who deliberately tried to become martyrs. One guy, I forget his name, was persecuted by some soldiers by a river, who then decided to let him go. He begged them to kill him so he could die for a noble cause, so I think they threw him in the river. IIRC
>>60729748
Nestorians and Arians, butnthats from a sort of design standpoint.
What jesus nature is doesnt change how valid his teachings are.
I came to Europe not quite understanding the point of cathedrals. I got that it was basically built big to honor God, etc. but it's one thing to read and another to experience. Even small town cathedrals are truly awe-inspiring structures in scale and complexity, even without considering the tools they were built with. They're divinely inspired pinnacles of human architectural achievement. Even if the size or whatever doesn't give some divine feeling, just knowing the amount of toil put into these in the name of God couldn't help but make me feel something. Some of them took generations to build, people living and dying working on something they would never see completed in the name of the Lord. The best cathedrals are the sums of hundreds of lives in devotion to one thing.
>>60729720
Just curious. I don't think I ever met an actual devoted French catholic the entire year I lived there.
I went on a tour of Cathedral of Our Lady of Strasbourg and the guide was talking about the asses of the saints and martyrs carved in the facade.
Religion is for faggots. Plus, soon there's gonna be only only Muslim's churches. So, whatever.
>>60729869
Just FYI, a cathedral is just the head church of a diocese. They are usually big, but literally any sized church could be designated a cathedral. All the other churches in a diocese are called parishes.
But I agree with you. I feel the same way about chants/hymns, and the mass, they are all extravagant and beautiful efforts to show God how far we will go for Him.
>>60729931
guides are people, so, they can be christian or not.
>>60729965
>Religion is for faggots
You must love religion then
>>60727263
God is inside
>>60729990
Well, yes. That was more of just an anecdote than saying "see, look, here's the only French person I spoke to the entire year!" I'm thinking more of my classmates at Paris III and other people I met.
>>60729977
Sorry, my Baptist upbringing is showing.
>>60730260
Are Baptists supporters of the Puritan idea of not doing anything past what is required of us?
My dad is a born again pentecostal evangelical, and he thinks that Catholic tradition is a form of idolatry.
>>60730440
In a way, yes. We were big on charity and such, but in services it was just music and sermon. Catholics were viewed as something bordering on pagan for all of their "weird rituals." Some people even earnestly believed Catholicism is almost form of polytheism of idea of saints.
Any tips on getting more into Catholicism by the way, I'm interested but don't really know where to start. I'm a relative dunce when it comes to properly understanding the theology etc.
Here's a native art style altar at my old cathedral in Victoria, BC, made by Indians.
Whom do the Orthodox dislike less, the Catholics or the Protestants?
>>60729272
>parishioner
What a shitty way to see a church.
>>60730624
How so?
>>60730560
Left panel is Pentecost or Baptism of Christ? Right panel is Feeding of 5,000?
>>60730622
Catholics
>>60721061
> I need a Semitic religion or else I will act immoral
>>60721678
*tips barretina*
>>60730698
Why? They have no beef with Protestants.
>>60730511
/r/Catholicism on Reddit can be helpful, although they are quite strict and conservative so newcomers are often frightened. You can search for a past "Introduction to Catholicism" thread, or make a new one asking any questions/how to get started.
CatholicAnswers.com have a lot of pages that explain Catholic beliefs and practices, particularly for Protestants who have misconceptions about them.
Otherwise I can try to answer any questions you have now. If you want a basic overview of what Catholics believe, read the Apostle's Creed. It is a statement of belief which we recite during Mass.
>>60730624
>What a shitty way to see a church.
Weekly, in reverence, worshipping God amongst a whole lot of other committed believers? That's the best way to see a church, mate.
>>60730708
>I deny religion so I can act immoral
>>60730783
My point is that you don't need a foreign religion to act moral.
>>60730863
Religion isn't just about behaving ourselves. It gives life purpose, and gives people a sense of reassurance; someone on their side who cares about them and helps them.
>>60730725
he's wrong, they hate Catholics where applicable, otherwise other Orthodox
Some people today still don't know this:
>However, in the Renaissance there was a brilliant, uncanny reawakening of the classical ideal, of the noble method of valuing everything: Rome itself woke up, as though from suspended animation, under the pressure of the new, Judaic Rome built over it, which looked like an ecumenical synagogue and was called 'Church': but Judea triumphed again at once, thanks to that basically proletarian (German and English) ressentiment-movement which people called the reformation, including its inevitable consequence, the restoration of the church, - as well as the restoration of the ancient, tomb-like silence of classical Rome. In an even more decisive and profound sense than then, Judea once again triumphed over the classical ideal with the French Revolution: the last political nobility in Europe, that of the French seventeenth and eighteenth centuries, collapsed under the ressentiment-instincts of the rabble, - the world had never heard greater rejoicing and more uproarious enthusiasm!
>True, the most dreadful and unexpected thing happened in the middle: the ancient ideal itself appeared bodily and with unheard-of splendour before the eye and conscience of mankind, and once again, stronger, simpler and more penetrating than ever, in answer to the old, mendacious ressentiment slogan of priority for the majority, of man's will to baseness, abasement, levelling, decline and decay, there rang out the terrible and enchanting counter-slogan: priority for the few. Like a last signpost to the other path, Napoleon appeared as a man more unique and late-born for his times than ever a man had been before, and in him, the problem of the noble ideal itself was made flesh - just think what a problem that is: Napoleon, this synthesis of Unmensch (brute) and Ubermensch (overman) ...
Is it a Catholic thing to build those little structures by roads? I don't know the English term for them and I don't think I have any pics.
>>60722111
Trips of truth
>>60730655
>>60730727
You cannot enjoy her beauty with some random guy talking and telling people to sit, stand or whatever.
>>60730725
Protestants don't have apostellistic succession (few exceptions possibly). Orthodox even recognize the Pope as a legitimate bishop, they just disagree with papal supremacy.
>>60731094
Small shrines do you mean?
>>60731094
Roadside Marian shrines? You see those in the SW and Mexico.
>>60731204
>>60731256
Yeah, that's it. I looked it up and Wikipedia calls them chapel shrines. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wayside_shrine#Chapel-shrines
>>60731179
You enjoy it even more when you worship in it.
Perhaps you should try it.
>>60731179
They don't tell you shit, if you were brought up right you'd know how to behave.
Or just do what the adults do.
>>60731256
Weird, I've never seen one here and this country is 25% Catholic (the biggest religion here). I think I've only seen one on Father Ted, at the front gate of their house.
http://americamagazine.org/content/all-things/tridentine-mass-why-i-couldnt-go-back
>In my mind I could not but think back to the Second Vatican Council, and all that the Council and subsequent documents tried to bring about – active participation, emphasis on the important things, vernacular, elimination of accretions and repetitions, etc. It was sad and disheartening. What happened? Why would the Catholic faithful seek out and attend this older form of the Mass? Is the Tridentine Mass an aberration? What does it say about the reforms of Vatican II?
>Peter Schineller, S.J.
>S.J.
Censeo Societatem Iesu esse delendam.
>>60731645
Mexicans are big into Mary worshipping. I mean, she's important here too, but not to the extent I've heard she's important in Mexico.
Also, the Virgin Mary is the biggest reason my mother and I are believing agnostics. I've got a story if anyone wants to hear. I've written about it in a thread in /x/ before but nobody had any comments.
>>60731759
>it was strange and foreign
It does take getting used to. But he's an idiot for not having a more open mind.
>>60732092
Wasn't there a famous sighting of Mary in Mexico somewhere? I'm not really sure, I don't focus on Mary as much as some people do.
I'm interested to hear your story.
>>60732242
Mary has been sighted all over; among other in Portugal and Bosnia.
Anyway, the story began about 25 years ago. I don't know exactly when, but at one point my family acquired a wooden statue of Mary that's about a metre tall. One day 25 years ago, Mary's right hand fell off and my mother of course put it back on. Soon after, my father's mother passed away. The hand fell off again, as well. Nobody really thought about it until about a decade later, when my mother again decided to fix the statue. You see, the statue's hands were put in place by nails - it's how we got the statue in the first place. Again, the hand fell off; this time, my mother's father passed away soon after. It was from this point onward that we don't meddle with the statue. The cat seems to like sleeping next to it, though.
I feel like fedora atheists are people who've never had something significant in their lives that makes them sit down and think about things and stop being so narrow minded.
>>60732558
I pretty much agree. If they were raised religious, they mustn't have taken it seriously and fully immersed themselves in it. I know it sounds like the whole capitalist "just work harder" thing, but it's true – if you really search and commit yourself, you will meet God.
Church should involve more pyrotechnics desu, I'd consider it then.
>>60732759
You can blow on the candles from a distance and they flicker
>>60721061
>be 18yo who looks 15
>go to Urop hoping to see cool churches
>go into Notre Dame in Paris
>literally get approached by a 80yo looking old man in a black cloak
>he goes on to talk about how OPEN MINDED young people are and how his flat is just around the corner
Up until that moment I thought that western degeneracy was just a meme. Also, when I went to US, I was approached by homogays twice in one week (I was in LA and SF to be fair). Jesus Christ what is wrong with you people
>>60733116
How is that relevant
>>60733336
Uropean churches look nice, but they're really just full of degeneracy. Don't go there.
>>60733560
Yeah, okay, if you say so.
>>60733560
>presents one of the most popular tourist destinations on the planet
>thinks it is representative of the rest of the European church
>>60733560
>your country's churches don't magically vaporise child molesters upon entry
>>60721061
>2016
>believing in god
Because religion is cancer.
>>60733800
>inb4 hat pictures
>>60733800
>at least eighteen years of age
>still has never sat down and seriously considered why we're here, why the universe is the way it is and what happens when we die
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=si_21P1wxqc
>>60733886
How so?
How does this image make you feel?
>>60721061
I go to a lot of churches just for fun. My favourite ones are the random norman style ones in the countryside with no one in them in the middle of nowhere
>>60721061
this architecture style is grotesque. couldn't be worse.
here is some proper architecture, although it was never realised
>>60734075
That's all well and good for your roach terrarium, but we're talking about churches here.
>>60734075
What do you think of Orthodox/Eastern Catholic Church architecture?
>>60734035
With those churches in the countryside of England, do they even have clergy assigned to them? Are they only used sometimes in the year, like at Easter or Christmas? Are they still owned by the C of E or are they completely abandoned?
>want to go to church
>too ashamed of what my family would say if they found out
something is very wrong here
>>60734620
Do you live with family?
Just go. If they say something tell them it's a personal decision and none of their business.
My mum is Catholic (her dad was a Catholic Northern Irish expat) and raised me as such; I was baptised and confirmed. Our family used to go to church regularly, but by the time I was a teenager we had stopped. When I was sixteen I decided to go on my own, and from there I just kept going every week. I was always religious, but before then I never took it too seriously. At first my mum asked why, and thought it was weird that I was there on my own and making personal decisions for myself. I think she still finds it weird imagining me in the few standing up, sitting down, singing the hymns and everything, but I just asked her what she finds so weird about it, and she shut up.
