Why are people against European Unification?
Because Germany are in charge
>>59013869
I wouldn't say so.
Germany is the biggest country, yes, so it has a lot of influence, but the refugee crisis has shown that Germany cant lead on its own, against the wishes of other member states
>>59014095
So when are Merkel gonna withdraw her invatation to the black and brown migrants?
That would help a lot.
>>59014202
The black and brown immigration stopped mostly already, because merkel made a deal with the devil (turkey)
because it's a fucking stupid idea
>>59014571
care to elaborate, friend?
![tumblr_nnmzbksY9G1uu9lbpo1_500[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/j4WXmzu.jpg "tumblr_nnmzbksY9G1uu9lbpo1_500[1].jpg")
>>59013829
Germany has no balls and is still occupied.
soviet union is barely gone and u already wanna form a new one. lets just stay free plz what the fuck is the problem with you cucks
>>59014698
That's why we need strength and unity in Europe, to free us from American influence
>>59014778
beeing "free" is not an alternative. You are gonna be always be influenced by bigger countries. Finnland of all nations should now it the best. You can only be free if you are a powerful country yourself
>>59013829
I hate to use the chemtrail speech, but it's an imperialistic attempt at grabbing and exploiting other countries' resources for the will of the Bruxelles overlords. It's pushing the nations of the EU into an artificial superstate and depriving them of their identity and autonomy. There is literally, LITERALLY no upside or reason why any member of the EU should ever want to get into the unification meme. No offense sir, but anyone who wants unification is either a shill, a cuck or both.
I swear you this: I will not allow Croatia to become a federal satellite of the closet fascists from Bruxelles. I will fight tooth and nail. Nignogs blew up your shit? Not Croatia's problem. Arabs blew up your airports? Not Croatia's problem. Too many kebab flowing in for the great economic powerhouse to handle? Again, not our problem.
>inb4 lel croatia
Yes, I am quite aware that our politics are a turdpile and even the EUSSR governance is better than what we have, but by god, please let us finally do something ourselves even if means the end of us.
>>59014630
I'm an American that has lived in several European countries for half of my life. There is barely cultural justification for the castrated, weak EU we see now, let alone unification. Not a single place I have lived has been remotely similar, even countries that used to be united.
>>59014843
nobody supports EU integration more than the US government. This is a dumb argument.
>>59014630
Not him but let's reverse it. Name even a single good reason for Europe to unify into a single nation that isn't "Muh America" or "Muh Russia".
>>59013829
Too many shady deals being made at the expense of ppl freedom and safety.
That TRans-pacific deal for example looks alwful.
>>59013829
They're sensible and realize a federalized EU would mean that their national interests would be marginalized even more so than they are now.
>>59014571
spain stay with you britain ...brexit when?
>>59013829
because we don´t wannabe a german colony .....
>>59014936
muh China.
Seriously, if European countries don't unite, they are gonna become puppets of other world powers. I dont understand how you can simply ignore that point.
>>59015048
>Seriously, if European countries don't unite, they are gonna become puppets of other world powers
The EU already sucks American dick (see TTIP shilling). They're not going to make a 180 on their foreign relations.
>>59014915
>nobody supports EU integration more than the US government. This is a dumb argument.
It doesn't change the simple truth of divide and conquer.
Alone we are weak. United we are strong
>>59013829
A Germanic supernation including Sweden, Denmark, the Netherlands, Germany, Austria, Belgium and the UK would be nice.
Anything that involves Turkey, Greece, Romania, Bulgaria or any shithole in that area? No thanks.
>>59015048
>completely cede all of your sovereignty and cease to be independent countries or else you'll become a puppet!
literally what kind of argument is this? How is the nonexistent Russian threat or American cultural influence justification to attempt some German-controlled pan-continental Yugoslavia clone?
>>59014843
>being free is not an alternative
you're right, it is the only option. being a submissive cuck is humiliating and worse than death.
>>59014937
ONLY way to prevent TTIP is if EU acts as a whole.
If each country would make a deal with USA individially, they would have zero bargain power and would have to accept all the shitty conditions
>>59015233
The EU was literally created because "m-muh free trade, muh import tariffs". That's like expecting China to all of a sudden recognize Tibet and Taiwan.
>>59014890
>Yes, I am quite aware that our politics are a turdpile and even the EUSSR governance is better than what we have, but by god, please let us finally do something ourselves even if means the end of us.
Why do you wanna do something on your own when you say yourself your politicians are shit? At least in EU, other countries can look at your politicians and prevent them from doing too much shit
>>59015048
So you concede that other than "muh power" there is literally no reason for the nations of Europe to unite?
>>59015133
no, you are not. a "united" Europe would just collapse the moment there is a war or economic recession. You can't artificially construct a superpower, that's not how it works. Work on building up your countries, fixing depopulation, and actually having militaries. Russia is not actually that big or scary, it's just a European country that asserts itself on an international level. There is no reason why Germany or the UK would not be able to do the same thing by themselves.
>>59015132
I wouldn't be so sure about TTIP passing.
70% of Germans are against it and there is a pretty big EU wide protest activism against this trade deal.
Sure, there are a lot of TTIP shills in EU, but it is up to the people of Europe to unite and take power in their own hands, through political activism
>>59015389
Yes. If we lived in a world where China, Russia, America and other potential superpowers magically didn't exist, there would be no reason for an united Europe.
Other than preventing European wars, maybe
>>59015187
Why do you assume united Europe would be German controlled? Sure, Germany is a powerful economy with influence, but when other countries unite, they can easily counter Germany, as refugee crisis has shown
>>59015443
>70% of Germans are against it and there is a pretty big EU wide protest activism against this trade deal.
And if the EU unified, those 70% of Germans would be marginalized and passing TTIP would be even easier than before.
A union to encourage trade/reduce trade barriers is a good thing. Giving up your sovereignty because of overblown fears of China is retarded.
>>59015206
You can be either a vassal state of a foreign power like China or America, or you can be part of a bigger country in which you have a vote.
I think the latter is the better alternative
>>59015486
>Russia
>superpower
the only people that think this are the Russians.
>>59015486
I see. In that case, why not include all countries of the Mediterranean? Hell, why not throw Africa in the mix? All those people, all those births, all those resources. Surely America and Russia would never stand up to us! And hey, it also helps prevent all those African wars through peace and unity and prosperity!
>>59013829
because Germany welcomes the refugees
>>59015591
>vassal state
>>59015599
>they're not superpower
>they're weak
>so that's why we need whole USA, EU and a lot of other countries except China to fight it
Seems logical.
>>59015303
Free trade between European countries
That doesn't mean EU has aotumatically accept a trade deal with USA which lowers European standards
>>59015655
Russia is a regional power with influence over the former Soviet Bloc. It's able to wield that influence because it throws it's fat dick all over place just like the U.S. does in the Middle East or France does in West Africa.
>>59015440
Maybe Russia isn't scary, but China sure is. They are 1 billion people, and their living standard and productivity is constantly improving.
Building up Britains power, fixing depopulation, military, it all wont help you against China. If you are alone, you are gonna become economically dependant on them and they will exploit you, like you did with them in the past
>>59015443
>70% of Germans are against TTIP
Do you think our politicians give a fuck about our opinion? They will do it anyway
>>59015655
nobody is fighting you but a bunch of Ukrainian pig farmers, what are you talking about?
>>59015725
literally the only other country they influence is Belarus and perhaps to an extent Serbia. Russia barely even qualified as a regional power, as it has almost no capability of actually influencing anything outside its borders.
>>59013829
Because Europeans are too culturally and linguistically diverse to make a go of it. Multiculturalism is divisive, and resentments quickly crop up and fester.
There are only two ways to counteract that:
1. You create an authoritarian government that quickly squashes any dissent.
2. You push for cultural and linguistic homogeneity. Which might be fine if everyone behaves like Germans, but your more likely to end up with a people who have the arrogance of the French, the corruption of the Italians, the work ethics of the Greeks, and the cuisine of the English.
>>59015543
As I said, there is an EU wide activism against TTIP. Such cooperation would be impossible without the excistance of EU, since USA would make treade deals with individual EU countries
>>59015753
What the hell is China going to do? All they're interested in is extracting resources from Africa and selling us plastic crap. As an American, we literally are economically dependent on them, but they are just as economically dependent on the west. We are their market, they would never do anything to jeopardize that.
>>59015603
Because those countries are shitholes and their people are uneducated and have medieval culture.
European value is to treat all people as equal, but frankly speaking, we wouldn't benefit from a state where we treat arabs and sub saharan africans as equals.
>>59015783
They tried to install ACTA, and yet people stood up and protested against it.
It shows that politican activism works in EU
>>59015880
>Because those countries are shitholes and their people are uneducated and have medieval culture.
Unlike Eastern Europeans, right? Or those Balkan shits Brussels desperately wants to annex?
>European value is to treat all people as equal, but frankly speaking, we wouldn't benefit from a state where we treat arabs and sub saharan africans as equals.
Let me rephrase that for you: we have "European" values, but frankly it would be retarded to actually live by those values.
>>59015787
He means the North Atlantic Treaty Organization, which serves no purpose anymore since the USSR is gone
>>59015591
the eu is a foreign power what the fuck are you talking about nigger
>vassal state
>
>
>>59013829
>Hacker: Europe is a community of nations, dedicated towards one goal.
Sir Humphrey: Oh, ha ha ha.
>Hacker: May we share the joke, Humphrey?
Sir Humphrey: Oh Minister, let's look at this objectively. It is a game played for national interests, and always was. Why do you suppose we went into it?
>Hacker: To strengthen the brotherhood of free Western nations.
Sir Humphrey: Oh really. We went in to screw the French by splitting them off from the Germans.
>Hacker: So why did the French go into it, then?
Sir Humphrey: Well, to protect their inefficient farmers from commercial competition.
>Hacker: That certainly doesn't apply to the Germans.
Sir Humphrey: No, no. They went in to cleanse themselves of genocide and apply for readmission to the human race.
>Hacker: I never heard such appalling cynicism! At least the small nations didn't go into it for selfish reasons.
Sir Humphrey: Oh really? Luxembourg is in it for the perks; the capital of the EEC, all that foreign money pouring in.
>Hacker: Very sensible central location.
Sir Humphrey: With the administration in Brussels and the Parliament in Strasbourg? Minister, it's like having the House of Commons in Swindon and the Civil Service in Kettering!
>>59015864
They will force you to sign trade deals which hurt your ecnomoy.
If you refuse, they will boycot your country until you finally give in
>>59015666
>Free trade between European countries
That's not realistic, the EU exports huge amounts of goods to the U.S. and China because those are their two main markets.There's a reason Eurocrats have spent the last 20 years getting comfey with China and the U.S.
>>59015356
Good question. I guess it's because I don't want to have anyone see Croatia get dragged out of the gutter by a union of destroyers and crooks thereby giving themselves credibility, while all they did was make sure we didn't follow their ideas too closely.
What I mean is that Croatia is the proof that socialism and crony capitalism do not work and have no future. It's proof that the keynesian myth of government spending driving the economy is a blatant lie.
Also, I don't want to live in a superstate that fixes it's own problems by centralizing itself and infringing on it's citizen's rights more and more. In fact, it seems just as bad as the destiny of Croatia as it is. It may be a case of jumping out of the frying pan and into the fire.
>>59013829
You know what, as much as I love my country's own individual culture, heritage and history, I am willing to face reality and accept that in the masses it is all but dead.
I would happy with a traditionalist, conservative pan-European movement that was built upon the ashes of the marxist, pro-mass islamic immigration EU, that embodied true European values such as family, religion, fine art and excellence.
For anybody that truely wants to see a united europa, the EU is your enemy. It is corrupt to its unelected executive core and is creating more division and animosity between European countries that we have seen since the great war, all whilest erasing our beautiful individual traits and brown washing us with third world hordes.
>>59015800
Which is why Islam is being introduced, it'll uinify Europeans under one belief.
>>59015937
>Unlike Eastern Europeans, right?
Eastern European countries are shit, because of Communism, but their people are allright and can integrate well in western European countries.
>Let me rephrase that for you: we have "European" values, but frankly it would be retarded to actually live by those values.
European values are good as long as we apply them to Europe. Democracy only works with people of similar world view and productivity.
If we give same voting rights to arabs and blacks who dont work shit and want to live in a caliphat, our democracy will go to shit
>>59014308
>made a deal that every """""""""""refugee"""""""" sent back to Turkey, Europe must take one """"""refugee""""" back from Turkey
>in return for this, Europe pays Turkey billions of euros and offers tens of millions of Turks visa free travel to Europe
wow what a great deal
>>59015803
>Such cooperation would be impossible without the existence of EU
Proofs? Sounds like bullcrap since you have those exact same protests among non-EU members like the U.S. and Canada. That's more to do with the Internet than any sort of Euronationalism.
>>59016040
Both options one and two. What an excellent solution.
>>59015960
The EU is not a foreign power. You are a member of EU, you sit in EU pairlament and you have a vote there.
If USA or Russia controlls you, you wont have any voting right
>>59015880
>European value is to treat all people as equal, but frankly speaking, we wouldn't benefit from a state where we treat arabs and sub saharan africans as equals.
So basically those values are bullshit since they only apply to people you like?
>>59016029
>European values such as fine art and excellence
>>59015982
>Also, I don't want to live in a superstate that fixes it's own problems by centralizing itself and infringing on it's citizen's rights more and more.
I am curious, how exactly do you think an EU state would infringing the rights of its croatian citizens? would it forbid them to speak coratian language? or to celebrate crotian festivals?
>>59016141
the EU is run by an unelected board of commissioners who can (and regularly do) ignore the european parliament
>>59016092
>but their people are allright and can integrate well in western European countries.
>integrate
Oh?
>Democracy only works with people of similar world view and productivity.
Do you have ANY FUCKING IDEA how much world view and productivity vary from nation to nation in Europe? Hell, that's the fucking cause of this entire retarded eurozone crisis: countries with entirely different and incompatible economies sharing one currency.
You're making an entirely arbitrary distinction between Eastern Europeans and North Africans simply because you don't like brown people.
>>59015980
But as EU, beeing the biggest single market on the planet, we can use our size to negoitate a trade deal that is favoroable to us.
If each European country had to make its own trade deal with USA and China, it would have way less bargain power and the deal would be far worse
>>59016102
>made a deal that every """""""""""refugee"""""""" sent back to Turkey, Europe must take one """"""refugee""""" back from Turkey
When refugees see that they are brought back to turkey as soon as they arrive in Europe, they will stop trying to come here
>>59016141
This. Bigger ones eating smaller ones.
EU is the thing that let you opportunity not being together as a one country (which is impossible) and hold your independence. Or, at least, sort of it.
But i actually think that you created vassal system in your own system (EU) which is kinda.. Dunno. Stupid?
>>59016104
America would be negotiating different deals with different countries at different times, all those deals would be secret of course.
An EU wide cooperation of activists would be impossible, because the deals would have different conditions and would happen at different times
>>59016344
>But i actually think that you created vassal system in your own system (EU)
care to elaborate?
>>59016315
>>59016315
The vast majority of them will not be deported back to turkey, and of those who do, they will just keep trying until they either succeed or are taken to Europe via the exchange deal.
Its fucking retarded. Why can't Merkel just go "we aren't taking any more, sorry". And shut the fucking border.
Instead she would rather suck terrorist Erdogans tiny sand-cock and continue to flood.
>>59016141
>the eu is not a foreign power
>i actually got baited this far
non-finns making the decisions for finns, of course it's a foreign power. sick baiting bro
>>59016410
Maybe. We'll see.
>>59016410
Germany and France telling other countries with weaker economies what to do?
I wonder how long until Germany starts tratning Switzerland, Austrian and the eastern coutries with economic sanctions of they dont lift their immigration policies.
>>59016210
I would love a democratic EU, but as of right now, there is not really a communication between people of different European countries, so in my opinion it is a good thing that EU pairlament has little power.
For now, it is better when the decisions in EU are made by agreements between gouvernments of EU countries and worked out by EU technocrates
>>59016441
I think he was mean that you actually have no choice to be ABSOLUTELY independent. USA, EU or Russia influence is waiting for you in any ways.
That's the mad world we're living in, yeah.
>>59016222
>Do you have ANY FUCKING IDEA how much world view and productivity vary from nation to nation in Europe?
This has mostly to do with corruption and post-communism, not with cultural differences.
And you cant say that Eastern Europeans and Africans are the same, either in their values, their religion or their education
>>59016536
>We must have power
>Even if it means sacrificing sovereignity
You're not even sacrificing liberty for safety. You're sacrificing liberty for the ability to one-up Americans on a FUCKING ANONYMOUS IMAGE BOARD. Shut off your computer, go lie in bed and think long and hard about just how fucking pathetic you are.
>>59016526
This didn't work. Germany tried to pressure others to accept their refugee policy, other countries told Germany to fuck off.
This shows that EU works as intended and Germany cant act alone against the will of other member states
>>59016583
>This has mostly to do with corruption and post-communism, not with cultural differences.
Because historical events don't shape a culture.
>And you cant say that Eastern Europeans and Africans are the same
Nor can you say that West Europeans and East Europeans are the same. Nor can you say that East Europeans and Balkanshits are the same. Nor can you say that Balkanshits and Turks are the same.
>>59013829
I'm totally in for it, because we can't remain shitty little countries while the rest of the world is slowly surpassing us in every little aspect. That being said the current EU is a bureaucratic monster that does more harm than good, especially on a socio-economical basis. We need some big reforms to not fuck it up.
>>59016441
Finns are involved in that decision making progress though. If you were controlled by China or USA, there would be no such involvement
>>59016359
>America would be negotiating different deals with different countries at different times
As opposed to negotiating with one big power with ideologically identical leadership, which is far more removed from the average person than the national governments are.
I really don't see the point here, you might as well federalize NATO members while you're at it.
>>59013829
I'm not against European Unification.
But only on old rules, on catholic values. Not muslim, I don't want to see sharia police on streets of my city.
Also where is european army?
Where are eu border guards?
Why we don't sending ships back to their homes like australia?
>>59016440
>The vast majority of them will not be deported back to turkey, and of those who do, they will just keep trying until they either succeed or are taken to Europe via the exchange deal.
All non-syrians will be deported to Turkey. Eventually they will give up trying
>Its fucking retarded. Why can't Merkel just go "we aren't taking any more, sorry". And shut the fucking border.
How are you gonna shut the border in Lesbos? Throw refugees out in the sea?
>>59016595
sovereignity without power is impossible
the weak get dominated by the strong. such is life
>>59016693
You think a tiny state like Finland has any more say in the EU than it would with the US? What would give them the ability to bargain with their population of 5 million compared to a continent of 500 million?
Unless you're going to copy the US senatorial system, then that shits not going to work out.
I like the Union, but I think the Parliament should hold more power, not the comission.
It needs to centralize.
>>59016704
>As opposed to negotiating with one big power with ideologically identical leadership, which is far more removed from the average person than the national governments are
because this leadership negotiates with the weight of the whole EU economy behind it. It can bargain far better than any single european country could
>>59016651
There are some differences, but Easern and Western Europeans share the same religion, the same values and enjoy a similar education
>>59016879
>It can bargain far better than any single european country could
Bargain on behalf of whom is the question. Considering lots of Eurocrats are quite cozy with companies like Royal Dutch Shell and Nestle
>>59016927
>the same values
nobody has ever properly explained what this means to me. Prove to me that it's not just a vague buzzword that Europhiles throw around.
>>59016846
They can look for allies who support their position.
For example, if Germany tries to pressure other countries to do their bidding, other countries can unite to counter Germanies influence, as happend in refugees crisis.
Plus, individual Finns have the ability to get involved in EU political process and come into a position of leadership
>>59016196
Oh, I'm not worried about the language and the traditions. Of course nobody would infringe on those, since there's no money involved and you can't monetize them.
What I fear is the nanny superstate taking care about our own """""well""""being by telling us what we can or cannot buy, produce, sell, what we can or cannot pay our workers and ask from our bosses, what we can or cannot use for the sake of the environment.
It has already banned certain types of appliances because muh environment, it has a heavily regulated and disfunctional agricultural system, etc. I don't even have to imagine what will happen when self driving cars go mainstream. The EU will most likely give us a push into the future by banning the manual cars and making sure that we have to spend even more on overpriced cars than we already do and then they'll say how hi-tech we are. They'll do the same to housing by requiring complicated systems to be mandatory feature of every building.
And finally, they will condition you to say and think what they want you to, which is what they are doing already. Croatia saw all the might of the EU propaganda machine at the joining referendum. The media was full of it until the point where nobody even dared to be anti-EU for the fear of being labeled as far right redneck, like what they are doing about UKIP and FN right now.
>>59017003
>human rights
>democracy
>seperation of power
>scientific method
Those are all values that Europeans share, but which are not necessary shared by muslims or blacks
>>59016927
>but Easern and Western Europeans share the same religion
Catholics, Protestants, Orthodox and Muslims if you include Albania and other Balkanshits the EU has shown interest in.
>the same values
Ha, no. WHAT fucking values? Just look at how much of a controversy things like gay marriage, the veil and abortion are.
>enjoy a similar education
Only the most sheltered europhile could believe this.
>>59017003
These "values" are progressive beliefs that are only a few decades old, detested by about half the European Union and paraded around as if they were always part of the identities of Europe. At best, at fucking best you could maybe argue for Christianity as a common root for European cultures. Guess what? The EU doesn't want to touch Christianity with a 10 foot pole because it would offend muzzies and fedora tippers.
>>59017016
>other countries can unite to counter Germanies influence, as happened in refugees crisis
That sounds like a system ripe for bickering and conflict over the pettiest bullshit. Add political ideology to the mix and you've got a timebomb.
>Plus, individual Finns have the ability to get involved in EU political process and come into a position of leadership
Yeah, under the guise of representing the interests of the entire union, not Finland, which would once again cause a conflict of interest.
>>59017057
>What I fear is the nanny superstate taking care about our own """""well""""being by telling us what we can or cannot buy, produce, sell, what we can or cannot pay our workers and ask from our bosses, what we can or cannot use for the sake of the environment.
So you are afraid that EU state will forbid shitty wages, unhealty food and production methods that are bad for the enviroment?
>>59016734
Put them all aboard a tanker and ship them back where they came from
>>59017224
>EU state will forbid shitty wages, unhealty food and production methods that are bad for the environment?
>Governments always act benevolently on behalf of the people
Oh my sweet summer child...
>>59017136
>Catholics, Protestants, Orthodox
literally the same, with different flavour. And I am not sure about Albaina joining EU.
>Just look at how much of a controversy things like gay marriage, the veil and abortion are.
This stuff doesnt matter, this does >>59017105
>Only the most sheltered europhile could believe this.
You cant even begin to compare the education of eastern european countries with african education. Many africans cant even read. They woul have no chance to become productive members of european countries
>>59017234
that's what the deal with Turkey that Merkel made is for
>>59017105
>Human rights
In the case of France, they're 200 years old. Even that is nothing when looking at all of European history. For Eastern Europe? A few decades.
>Democracy
Again, looking at France the first instance of a true democracy (universal suffrage) was 1871 with the Third Republic. For the UK and Netherlands 1917. Even later if you include women. For Eastern Europe, once again only a few decades.
>Separation of power
Existed as part of political theory in pretty much every major civilization worth mentioning. If you're talking about the specific separation of powers mentioned by Montesquieu, the Americans implemented it before any European power.
>Scientific method
You have to be fucking kidding me. This isn't a value, Heinrich al-Mualim.
>Germans shilling for the EU
How the proud have fallen
>>59017188
>That sounds like a system ripe for bickering and conflict over the pettiest bullshit.
It worked so far. It is no perfect, but so far, we managed to navigate through greece debt crisis and through refugee crisis
>>59017234
the countries where they came from are not obliged to accept them. thats why you need to make shitty deals with shitty countries like turkey
>>59017337
It's a shitty fucking deal
>>59017267
I know it is hard for an American to believe, but Europeans do have many regulations in place that protect its people
>>59017374
>>59017374
>Thinking any German ever listened to Bismarck
Nobody did after Germany's unification, and that's why everything went wrong. Germany is like one of those incredibly rare clusterfucks. The kind that causes an entire airport to be so horribly mismanaged that all of its airplanes crash together at a single point and kill hundreds of thousands because one guy forgot to wash his hands after using the toilet. It should theoretically be impossible, yet it happened.
>>59017435
Why do we need to give a fuck about the opinion of those shitholes ?
>>59017379
Precisely because you didn't have the EU throwing it's dick around and allowing countries like Greece and Hungary to deal with it themselves.
>>59017515
what are you gonna do? invide them and make them take refugees by force?
>>59017105
>Those are all values that Europeans share
No, they aren't. Considering the vast difference of opinion on refugees, the fact that most of the continent were either full-on or quasi dictatorships (and some still are) within our parents and grandparents lifetimes, and that Europe was at its height of power under monarchies, the fact that you even mentioned human rights and democracy is laughable. These are progressive ideas barely older than color television that are experiencing a decline as we speak.
Also, funnily enough, America has all of those values too. When are we going to get EU candidate status?
Shitskins ITT
>>59017521
I case of Greece, pertty much whole EU acted uinted and told Greece to get its shit together.
In case of refugee crisis, some countries like Hungary and Austria started to act on their own, closing borderds, and Merkel made a deal with Turkey, in order not to turn Greece into a refugee hell
>>59017547
Put the """"refugees"""" back where they started, threaten the local government with sanctions if need be
>>59017515
nice understanding of diplomacy you have there
>>59013829
>>59014095
Because the EU is supposed to be a Union of Equals, and it's anything but that.
Germany stuck to the rules and made the PIIGS pay for their debts (as they should).
Germany broke the rules when they wanted to by saying all Syrians could come to Europe, then they realised they fucked up and tried to shift the pressure to everyone else for their fuck up.
Their neighbours don't want anything to do with it, so what does Germany do? It decides it will rewrite the Dublin regulations to either force countries to take these migrants or pay €250,000 so Germany will keep them.
That's not solidarity, that's extortion.
So long as Europe decides to put the wants of unelected cunts over the desires of the citizens and Member States, they can fuck off and keep their unification on paper.
>>59017568
pretty much all Europeans are negative towards refugees by now and people from ex-dicatatorships are not found of those.
>Also, funnily enough, America has all of those values too. When are we going to get EU candidate status?
America is roughly as big as whole EU combined. If it were to join the EU, it would dominate it entierly.
>>59017636
Why should the entire EU bow down to a shithole like Turkey or Libya ?
>>59017625
local gouvernments have time. They can endure sanctions for a year or two.
You cant endure the refugee influx for so long
>>59014843
>That's why we need strength and unity in Europe, to free us from American influence
Why would we want to replace the Americans with the Germans?
Getting rid of the Americans is in -your- interest. It is not in ours. I'd take the Americans over you kraut bastards any day of the week, at least the Americans don't fuck around with our laws.
>>59017491
>Seriously believing regulations are always for your benefit and not to act as protectionist measures.
>Actually thinking that it's governments and not businesses that drive regulatory policy.
Case and point: Volkswagen got caught fudging emissions because it's competitors pushed for an investigation and filed a Federal lawsuit.
It's the fact that you think giving all that power to a power-base that controls a vast swath of land, each region with it's own local economy, with no checks to it's power, that makes you seem extremely ignorant.
>>59017688
>Because the EU is supposed to be a Union of Equals, and it's anything but that.
How do you mean it? That every person in EU should be equal?
Or that Germany and Ireland should have the same influence in EU?
>Germany broke the rules when they wanted to by saying all Syrians could come to Europe, then they realised they fucked up and tried to shift the pressure to everyone else for their fuck up.
And other countries told Gemany to fuck off. It shows that EU works as it should and that Germany cant bully other countries in unpopular decisions
>>59017743
We can easily endure the migrant influx by simply patrolling the borders and not allowing them in
>>59017224
Yes, among others, and I don't think you understand the implications of such actions.
Banning shitty wages does not mean "making sure everyone gets a decent wage", it means banning the lower-wage earners from working and gathering experience. In fact, I once ran upon an article that showed a correlation between the height of the minimum wage and youth unemployment in countries of the world, including EU ones.
Likewise, banning shitty or unhealthy food, leaving only high quality expensive produce on the market means making sure that the poorer families who would have spent on shittier food, now have to use up more of their budget on food just because someone said so.
No government official, clerk or bureaucrat will ever be able to tailor a law or regulation on wages, food, cars or anything else that fits the needs, wishes and priorities of individuals he has never met, thereby depriving many people of what they actually want and need, which is the actual criteria for a person's own living standard. This is why centralized economy simply does not work, as seen in the USSR, Yugoslavia, North Korea and such.
>>59017808
so what are you gonna do when you catch a refugee boat next to greece? Keep in mind, no country will accept them
>>59017807
>Or that Germany and Ireland should have the same influence in EU?
That Germany shouldn't be able to dictate laws to Ireland just because you have a larger population.
German laws for Germany, Irish laws for Ireland. Not German laws for both.
>And other countries told Gemany to fuck off. It shows that EU works as it should and that Germany cant bully other countries in unpopular decisions
Except you're literally rewriting the Dublin Regulations as we speak to force those countries to take them or pay you to keep them.
>>59017855
>no country will accept them
So why do we have to ?
>>59017792
sure, some regulations act as a protectionist measure, but they are also in place to help the enviroment and the people
>>59017855
Send them to the nearest Muslim country. If these "refugees" we really refugees they would've gone to the nearest safe country
>>59017710
Because it's 2016 :^)
>>59017941
*were
>>59017844
>Likewise, banning shitty or unhealthy food, leaving only high quality expensive produce on the market means making sure that the poorer families who would have spent on shittier food, now have to use up more of their budget on food just because someone said so.
It is still cheaper to spend money on healthy food than to spend money for medicine, to treat the effects of unhealthy food.
>In fact, I once ran upon an article that showed a correlation between the height of the minimum wage and youth unemployment in countries of the world, including EU ones.
Whats the point of beeing employed if your wage cant substain you? That is exploitation, and shouldnt be allowed.
>No government official, clerk or bureaucrat will ever be able to tailor a law or regulation on wages, food, cars or anything else that fits the needs, wishes and priorities of individuals he has never met, thereby depriving many people of what they actually want and need, which is the actual criteria for a person's own living standard. This is why centralized economy simply does not work, as seen in the USSR, Yugoslavia, North Korea and such.
Nobody wants a fully centralized EU. Member states would still retain a lot of law making competence, as is case in USA,for example
>>59013829
The moment EU laws were put over national laws was the moment everyone realized it wouldn't work
>>59017941
>Send them to the nearest Muslim country.
But most of them are already going to Germany.
>>59017941
The nearest muslim refugee country will say "no thank you, we dont want them"
What do you do now?
>>59017926
We don't have an alternative really. If they reach our border, what are you gonna do? shoot them?
>>59018150
>>59018130
>the moment everyone realized it wouldn't work
That was known from about 600BC
>>59017907
>That Germany shouldn't be able to dictate laws to Ireland just because you have a larger population.
>German laws for Germany, Irish laws for Ireland. Not German laws for both.
Germany doesn't dictate Irish law. But in a free trade area, some laws must apply to all member states, and those laws should be made by Germany and Ireland and all other countries invloved together.
>Except you're literally rewriting the Dublin Regulations as we speak to force those countries to take them or pay you to keep them.
I would be very suprized if this would actually pass
>>59018150
Kek but seriously. Less than a quarter of these people are from Syria and the ones that are, are leaving because of Assad and Russia. They like the moderate beheaders
>>59017931
>but they are also in place to help the environment and the people
That's just how they rationalize it so it makes it sound universally beneficial. Tell people that it's "for their benefit" instead of more practical reasons.
Another example from German history, BIsmarck passed the Socialized Healthcare act under the guise of protecting the health of German workers, when in reality it was because he didn't want Socialists to become more popular so as to keep reform under the thumb of the state.
>>59017688
Also the fact that migrants are going to Germany so when they arrive, Germany is just picking the best and educated people and sending the shit ones to neighboring countries.
>>59018175
Put them back on their boat to do whatever the fuck they want in the middle of the sea, except come here
Bully the muslim countries into accepting them
Worst comes to worst, yes, shoot them because they are literally invading us
>>59014630
It's a noble idea, but in practice will never work. Sort of like gommunism
>>59018175
They are obligated by international treaties. Germany is not
>>59018266
you are a pretty cynical person, arent you?
>Another example from German history, BIsmarck passed the Socialized Healthcare act under the guise of protecting the health of German workers, when in reality it was because he didn't want Socialists to become more popular so as to keep reform under the thumb of the state.
And yet it did benefit German workers a lot, their quality of life increased
>>59018175
>What do you do now?
Sanction their leaders' bank accounts. Embargo trade with them.
They'll crack before we do.
>Germany doesn't dictate Irish law. But in a free trade area, some laws must apply to all member states, and those laws should be made by Germany and Ireland and all other countries invloved together.
I have no problem with common laws on the trade area, but Bruxelles should not have the right to overrule our Constitution or our Legislature.
>>59018306
are you ready for all the pictures and videos of European soldiers executing unarmed women and children?
What do you think, how will European people react to this. What will it do to our reputation in the world, to our economic relations?
>>59016846
>Unless you're going to copy the US senatorial system, then that shits not going to work out.
That was one of the things that struck me when I moved here and learned about how EU legislation works.
In the US we have two legislative bodies, in one of which (the Senate) every state, no matter whether it has a population of 50 million or a couple hundred thousand, has an equal number of representatives (two). It baffles me that such a system is in place in the US to give cultural and political protection to places as relatively similar (in comparison to the rest of the world) as say, California and Florida, but not independent European nation states with a thousand years of different culture and history.
>>59018318
the immigrants have no papers with them. There is no way to prove which country they come from, nobody is obliged to take them
>>59018500
Nice, good job ignoring the other 2 lines I wrote
>>59018405
They can endure years of embargo
we cant endure years of refugee influx
>I have no problem with common laws on the trade area
So what are the laws you have a problem with? Care to name any example?
>>59018552
sending them back to sea, to die, isnt really much better than shooting
Do you still remember which effect pic related had.
No imagine crying woman and children, beeing set into boat and driven out in the sea to drown/die of hunger thirst
>>59018500
>how will European people react to this. What will it do to our reputation in the world, to our economic relations?
The kikes have no problem with it, though
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lU_8LJ5_kW0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EfF07HSsfGc
>>59018667
Good job, but there's one more line
And no, "they'll crack before we do" isn't a defense
>>59018399
It's just the truth, power plays is what politics is all about.
>And yet it did benefit German workers a lot, their quality of life increased
But not for the reasons stated, which is the point. Now think of a case where that very same rationalization is used for shit like Temperance movements and to ban drugs. It's extremely dangerous to give a centralized body that much power and people are rightfully skeptical regarding it. Look how the Federal government is scrutinized in the US despite the countless programs it provides its citizens.
>>59013829
I am for a germanic union though.
>>59018599
>>59018599
>They can endure years of embargo
The Saudis are in the middle of a huge deficit because of low oil, you think they're going to last longer if we say "fuck off we're not buying any of your shit"?
>we cant endure years of refugee influx
Yes we can. Put up a big fucking fence, any refugees that come to Europe on boats are found at sea and returned to where they came from and only left with enough fuel to go back. If they keep trying to cross, we stick them on a little island somewhere and fucking leave them there until the Saudis crack.
You think people are still going to come when they realise they're not being let in? I don't.
>So what are the laws you have a problem with? Care to name any example?
This migrant nonsense, for one. The European Defence Agency for two. Forcing us to revote on the Lisbon Treaty until it's something you liked for three.
>>59018667
>No imagine crying woman and children, beeing set into boat and driven out in the sea to drown/die of hunger thirst
Stop trying to guilt trip people.
>>59018723
But the brief history of EU shows that political activism is able to stop regulations that would be bad for people, see ACTA.
Sure, it is not gonna be easy and we will have to fight tooth and nails to keep or rights, but in my opinion, a strong european state is our only chance to stay independant in a world with superpowers like China or USA
>>59018700
>The kikes have no problem with it, though
Because kikes aren't fucking moron. One sandnigger kid on the beaches of TURKEY (read: outside of the warzone) had a greater effect on the peoples of Europe than literally dozens of corpses in Bataclan. Compare Israel, which fucking celebrates revenge bombings on their enemies in Gaza. It's because kikes aren't world citizens, it's "us" and "the enemy".
>>59016734
>How are you gonna shut the border in Lesbos? Throw refugees out in the sea?
Fucking hell, if you just let us every eastern European would gladly throw shitskin newborns into the sea.
>>59018547
Its very obvisious they had to pass through countries that would've had to have taken them. I don't know why you keep making these shitty excuses
>Continent controlled the world for hundreds of years
>Same continent is now controlled by subhumans
Top kek!
>>59018892
>>59018788
>Yes we can. Put up a big fucking fence, any refugees that come to Europe on boats are found at sea and returned to where they came from and only left with enough fuel to go back.
How do you know where they come from, they throw away their passports.
>If they keep trying to cross, we stick them on a little island somewhere and fucking leave them there until the Saudis crack.
And then you will have reporters going to that island, and report about the horrible things that happen there, greatly damaging EU reputation in the world.
>Stop trying to guilt trip people.
You cant tell me you dont care at all about refugees dying in the sea. Not so long ago, your own country was struck by a terrible famine, and back then, the ancestors of the very same people were sending you food supplies.
>>59018814
>is able to stop regulations that would be bad for people, see ACTA.
Again, that's because the EU is decentralized enough that it allowed for dissenting voices to be heard. Enough people complained and it allowed them to decide to block its passage.
That's the dangers of giving the EU more power than it already has opens up a Pandora's box of shit that can go wrong.
>>59018848
You guys would simply shut the border and let Greece deal with the problem, and they would have no choice but to accept the refugees, because you cant build a border around sea.
>>59019086
I would agree with that, but of course, Boiko won't because he's Merkel's bitch.
>>59018868
Yeah but through which country? Marokko? Tunesia? Lybia? Turkey? How are you gonna proof which country it was? All of those countries can simply deny it was them
>>59013829
Many reasons.
1. They don't trust their representative enough to allow them greater distance from the electorate
2. They believe in tribalism
3. They prefer soviet unification
4. They want to keep Europe weak and fragmented
5. They don't believe present day political elites would carry unification out successfully and only fuck things up worse than they have been before
6. They believe that protectionism and rivalry between bureaucracies is more beneficial than sharing bureaucracy and competing in other areas
7. They believe that European countries are too different to work together under a single banner
Some of them are retarded, some of them have some merit, some are outright malicious.
>>59019063
EU will never become a centralized entity.
It will be like USA or Germany, where a lot of law giving competence will stay within its member states
>>59018814
ACTA passed in every EU country except Germany, Estonia, and Slovakia. Had the EU been unified, it would have passed everywhere.
>>59013829
Because I want Sweden to be a sovereign country that's not ruled by some continental button-pressers in Brussels.
>>59019027
>How do you know where they come from, they throw away their passports.
Bring along a couple Arabic speakers, they'll be able to place the dialect, and I'm quite sure if you find a boat in the Central Mediterranean you can guess it's from Libya instead of Turkey.
>And then you will have reporters going to that island, and report about the horrible things that happen there, greatly damaging EU reputation in the world.
So don't let the reporters come.
>You cant tell me you dont care at all about refugees dying in the sea. Not so long ago, your own country was struck by a terrible famine, and back then, the ancestors of the very same people were sending you food supplies.
It's not people like me making them die at sea. It's people like you telling them they should come. The blood is on your hands, not mine.
I think we should set up safe zones in Syria or Lebanon, I think we should send food and water to them in the camps. I do not think we should invite every fucking one of them to Europe because it will only strain Europe's infrastructure to the point of breaking and make it worse for everyone.
For every ONE migrant we bring to Europe we can instead help FIFTEEN in the camps.
So take your moral superiority and fuck off, their blood is on your hands for telling them to come.
>>59019324
>I think we should set up safe zones in Syria or Lebanon, I think we should send food and water to them in the camps.
Well, if you wanna set up safe zones in Syria or Lebanon, you have to come to an agreement with those countries, and you have to come to an agreement now, not after two years of sanctions.
>So don't let the reporters come.
So you are willing to throw away our rights and turn Europe into a bunch of authoritarian states? Because I am not
>>59013829
Because I don't like
Mario Draghi,Jean Claude Juncker,Angela Merkel,
Francois Hollande
>>59019207
An United EU wouldn't be as centralized that you could pass such treaties while ignoring the wishes of member states
>>59019131
The countries in trouble are libya, Syria and Iraq. All of those are surrounded by safe countries. There is no excuse for these people
>>59019432
>Well, if you wanna set up safe zones in Syria or Lebanon, you have to come to an agreement with those countries, and you have to come to an agreement now, not after two years of sanctions.
Then we request UN support to create safe zones, or we pick a fucking side already and help them win, not this half-assed bullshit.
>So you are willing to throw away our rights and turn Europe into a bunch of authoritarian states? Because I am not
And yet you seem to have no problem throwing away our rights to walk through our streets unmolested by Africans or Arabs. You seem to have no problem ignoring the wishes of the majority (who don't want to take migrants in) because it makes you feel good about yourself.
>>59019479
What about Donald Tusk?
>>59019568
>And yet you seem to have no problem throwing away our rights to walk through our streets unmolested by Africans or Arabs. You seem to have no problem ignoring the wishes of the majority (who don't want to take migrants in) because it makes you feel good about yourself.
Believe me, I dont want economic migrants in Europe. Thats why I think we need to make a deal with the devil, like Merkel did, and let Turkey take the migrants that come to Europe
>>59017688
There are earlier cases of Germany breaking rules, including the maastricht ones. They are not relevant to topic at hand, but it's odd you would point out the refugee case where it's not so clear cut.
Dublin system was, is and will in the foreseeable future be immoral and unworkable garbage. It was tolerated until today because the pressure was much lower so countries that shat on it, like Italy or Greece, could get away with it and Germany and Sweden could deal with the influx of random brown people - or so they thought.
It's well past time they be rewritten, although obviously specifics are up to debate.
>that's not solidarity, that's extortion
I'm as mad at Germans and other western countries for their hypocrisy in criticising "inhumane" treatment of the human wave that's forcing itself into Europe while simultaneously whining about "burden sharing", but these are the facts:
1. The migrants are coming
2. No single country can deal with them without breaking international conventions (including elementary human rights conventions unrelated to EU)
EU needs common policy, and the Commission has mandate under Lisbon treaty to institute one - obviously it need to go through the entire legislative process, which it would have no chance of doing regardless of its content if there was no crisis going because it's so politically sensitive.
EU needs to
1. protect its borders
2. have ability to deal with people who arrive at them
And since it's literally impossible to deport everyone, this will have to include migrant allocation and/or ways of otherwise supporting system that deals with this problem.
>>59019567
Its not about the excuses of those people, or who is right or wrong.
It is about the fact that our capabilties to limit the movement of those people is limited, unless we strike a deal with one of the border countries, like Merkel did
>>59019568
Safe zones sound pretty good and I'm pretty sure the EU is sending aid for the camps in Turkey.
Picking a side in the war wouldn't be so easy however, after a very costly war with IS we would still be left with Assad vs the rebels. Picking either side would piss of Russia or the US.
>>59019567
That's why EU has negotiated the deal with Turkey.
I'm not exactly thrilled about the way it develops, even if so far Turks seem to be honouring their side of the bargain, at least where migrant flux is concerned.
And EU is already attacked by UN about it.
You realize Germans can't just airdrop the unwanted migrants over random desert countries. And if these people can't be deported, someone has to take care of them in Europe.
>>59019702
this is a fair summing up of the state of EU
>>59019725
No you buffoon Germany didn't have to take any. But s it stands now you've taken in more refugees in one year then the u.s had taken in since the 60s
>>59019786
>Assad vs the rebels
Have you been living under a rock these months?
The day russia "retreated" from syria some time ago was the same day Assad got into talks with the rebels.
There are rebels and then there are "rebels", with the first ones assad is already negotiating, with the latter ones, everyone should be bombing them.
USA is the one in the "wrong" side because they keep financing rebels and want assad to leave (thus destroying any chance at stability). When the right choice is to back assad up, get rid of the terrorists, make him negotiate with the actual rebels, and then leave it to the syrian people to decide if he goes or stays or whatever
>>59017926
Because its the right thing to do. If you were fleeing a war you would want someone to take you in.
>>59020060
Nice wordplay, fatso. Enjoy your Mexican "workforce"
>>59013829
Because they think that EU leaders are worse than their leaders, when in actuality all politicians and non-elected a-holes are the same everywhere.
>>59014571
please leave already
one world-wide nation when?
because you dont want to unify anything
its not the european version of the US where the poor shithole gets its share
you want it for yourself and your friends, the rest can be slaves
you showed us perfectly how do you imagine this "unification"
>inviting brown ppl to someone elses house
>>59020072
The guy was talking about picking a side in the war, so I commented on that. I'm all for a diplomatic solution.
>>59020173
The thing is, local politicians are held accountable for their actions when they fuck up. Nobody elections the Commissioners, and the Parliament is a fucking joke.
>>59013829
Some people have been swindled into believing that unification is an enemy and not simply a scapegoat presented by those who want some power
>>59020468
Finally, one other person sharing my argument. A directive is not a quota, the EU isn't forcing anyone to follow it to the letter.
>>59020405
The side you should pick then is helping Assad and stop half assing stuff. Don't let yourself be intimidated by the amerifats.
Soon everything will be fine
>>59020407
Parliament cannot be bypassed in legislative process. It doesn't have initiative under current treaties, but it can block anything commission puts forward and it can recall entire commission.
It's only "a joke" because ignorant electorate treats it that way.
And commissioners are appointed by member governments.
In contrast, accountability of national politicians is also limited to their results in next elections and sometimes not even that. The difference is smaller than you think.
>>59020645
But Assad is a scumbag. As a Lithuanian I wouldn't support a dictatorship.
>>59013869
Basically this. Merkel killed any hope for European federation for the next 100 years.
>>59020767
If the Brits leave, Danes and Czechs will probably follow them.
Greeks might decide to shit the bed and leave too.
>>59013829
I'm not European, but if I were id be concerned that my culture/sovereignty would be at risk.
>>59019786
>Picking a side in the war wouldn't be so easy however, after a very costly war with IS we would still be left with Assad vs the rebels. Picking either side would piss of Russia or the US.
So we side with the Yanks. Drop a couple cruise missiles on Assad and his commanders, drop another couple on every Islamist in Syria.
What's Russia going to do, get in a tussle with us? The Turks shot down their fucking pilots and the response was "no more russian tourists for you:DDD"
>>59020809
I told you before, getting rid of him would only create a Libya 2.0, you can't just create a power vaccum like that.
>I wouldn't support a dictatorship
You don't have to support it, once the war is over leave it to the syrian people to re elect him or dump him or whatever. He is a necessary evil by now.
>>59018239
>I would be very suprized if this would actually pass
It's too late. Merkel circumvented Dublin a year ago. It's people like her that make me want to see the structure of the EU crash and burn.
The EU shouldn't force other countries to take in thousands of Muslims just because Germany has some deep-seated issues about its past.
>>59020939
>Czechs will probably follow them.
kek
No. Only country we'd follow out would be Germany.
>>59020791
>In contrast, accountability of national politicians is also limited to their results in next elections and sometimes not even that.
But they are still accountable. If Fine Gael does something the people don't like, they'll vote for someone else next time around.
But if the EU does something we don't agree with, what are we going to do? There's nothing we can do.
Say we're in a full Union and we don't want to take niggers. Germany decides we have to. What exactly can Irish voters do to change it?Nothing. We're stuck with their decisions.
National sovereignty should come before the European Union.
>>59021120
Didn't the Government say they'd hold a referendum if Brits left? Czechia is like the most anti-EU country in Europe.
>>59013829
Because stupid guys broke a necessary evil, Soviet Union.
We were more or less returned to pre-WWI era.
>>59021120
Saw that you guys changed your name. Can we call you Bohemia again?
EU was never supposed to be a federation but a continuity of EEC and it's clear the current member states didn't sign up for it. The schengen arrangement was nice but since it's been made clear that a) the border control in countries like grease is a complete joke and b) germans are insane and want muslims to run europe over it's better to start implementing national border controls and effectively dismantle the schengen area. Also the power of the commission should be checked. They should not have the authority to instate fines for ignoring forced quotas of refugees, the ones merkel invited into germany.
Personally not against the EU or european cooperation, but the captain of the ship has no idea what they're doing and the currently trying to build the EU into a federal force is not what people signed up for. People signed up for creating an economic trade zone and passportless travel.
>>59015048
>muh China.
You can turn off the proxy Soros. Literally no-one argues that a trade union between Euro cunts is a bad thing if done right. Even some basic measures to protect that market might be acceptable.
But Euro 'unification' is impossible short of genocide and totalitarianism. Let it go Hans, make Germany great again.
Why the whining? We've come really goddamn far considering we were at constant war with each other for like 1800 years.
>>59019486
>while ignoring the wishes of member states
Except it aleady does ignore the wishes of member States on a regular basis, or at least punishes those who disagree.
More centralized power is never the answer. It only makes it harder for there to be recourse and will attract the worst kinds of people trying to influence that centralized power.
As an example, ever since the EU started becoming more centralized, the lobbyist industry in Brussels has grown to the largest in the world outside of ours in Washington. I can tell you from experience that that is a very bad sign.
>>59021601
Which is why the EU parliament exists.
>>59021642
The EU parliament is quite impotent. Even during TTIP's negotiation, an MEP is not allowed to see the documents or make proper notes - yet it expected to vote on its implementation.
>>59021735
No shit, why would they bother with the TTIP? Their primary function is internal affairs, voicing the people's opinions on laws made by the commission and council.
>>59021195
>But they are still accountable. If Fine Gael does something the people don't like, they'll vote for someone else next time around.
You can do the same thing in EU, and when you do this in your national election this also carries forward to EU because of their participation in council and in appointing commissioners.
>But if the EU does something we don't agree with, what are we going to do? There's nothing we can do.
You can complain to your MEP. IIRC that's at least partly how ACTA got stopped.
>Say we're in a full Union and we don't want to take niggers. Germany decides we have to. What exactly can Irish voters do to change it? Nothing. We're stuck with their decisions.
You time and again overstate german influence. They are a big country but they're not the only one. There's France, UK, Italy, Spain, Poland etc.
Additionally, you'd be stuck with their decisions regardless. If Germany closed its borders and stopped accepting niggers, they'd simply find some other place to live in. Even if your position as island nation would help protect you (would it though? Look at Greece), you'd still suffer knockoff effects of hamstrung trade between european countries.
>Didn't the Government say they'd hold a referendum if Brits left? Czechia is like the most anti-EU country in Europe.
Nope. Only party in our government that want to even consider referendum to that effect is a literal meme party that used to consist of like 13 people led by a half-japanese and fell apart because they couldn't agree how to split state political campaign support funds.
One another anti-eu party in our parliament actually shares faction with british tories and are reformists. Even our communists don't claim to want to leave EU (they'd prefer to destroy it from within).
>>59021214
as far as I can tell, both Czechia and Czech Republic are official. Bohemia refers to the biggest region and people might feel inclined to point that out, but nobody should be mad if you do this.
>>59021642
And you honestly think that it represents the best interests of Europeans or EU States? The EU President is not elected by Democratic means, most of the bureaucracy is not subject to effective oversight.
If you want to see how this plays out, look at our Congress. It has consistently had an approval rating of ~20%, yet has a re-election rate of ~80%. Yes, the burger public is shit at politics, but it's far more difficult to hold legislatures accountable than it is Executives like the President.
>>59021795
>voicing the people's opinions on laws made by the commission
>people are concerned with TTIP
>not allowed see it
>not impotent at all
>>59021718
If based Geert is at the top we'll be ok
>>59021735
European parliament passed a resolution with mandate for negotiators.
The deal itself is still being negotiated.
Nobody will be voting on TTIP before the agreement is finalized.
If you're suggesting that governments literally can't know what they're voting for then that's tinfoil hat level of bullshit.
>>59021836
It doesn't concern us. That's like asking the people to vote on military tactics. Stop being america's bitch.
>>59021807
>And you honestly think that it represents the best interests of Europeans or EU States?
Yes. We are unofficially in a trade war after all.
>>59021969
>EU
>One of the biggest trading partners of the US and vice versa
>Multiple bilateral trade and diplomatic agreements
>In a trade war
M8, if you want to limit influence, why are you turning to the one organization that's closest to the US?
>>59021969
>Yes. We are unofficially in a trade war after all.
Riddle me a lullaby on EU tariffs and then tell me if giving up as many freedomz as you are is worth it for the sake of a trade war.
>>59021969
>It doesn't concern us
Of course it fucking concerns us, you dirty little cuckold. This is what will affect Ireland and the Irish people.
Sure, to you, it might only be one extra cock to the many already up your ass, but to me it's an encroachment upon the integrity of the Nation.
>That's like asking the people to vote on military tactics.
Could you have picked a less applicable metaphor?
>>59013829
Czechia has very bad experience with decisions made by foreigners without Czech involvement and against the best Czech interests (Austrian Empire, French ""allies"", Nazis, Soviets etc.). Retarded bureaucratic decision or recent approach to refugee crisis ("you explicitly stated you are against mandatory quotas.... so we decided we try to push through mandatory quotas with fines for states who disagree) don't help either.
>>59015969
kek, every time, daily reminder Yes, (Prime)Minister is the best British series.
>>59021195
many people are pissed by EU but currently ruling parties (and main opposition party) want to stay in EU.
>>59021214
>Bohemia
triggered
>>59021969
Since TTIP concerns non-tariff barriers, you can bet your ass it will concern you on a personal level.
I'm myself looking forward to seeing what the negotiators will have cooked up.
There has been a lot of baseless hysteria surrounding the treaty though, some of it coming from Russia-aligned sources.
>>59022123
There's literally nothing wrong with having choice between contributing with migrant quotas or money desu.
That's assuming all possible effort has been made to restrict the total amount of incoming migrants and nobody will be seen as letting more of them in through the back doors.
>>59022319
>There's literally nothing wrong with having choice between contributing with migrant quotas or money desu.
Why the fuck should the Irish tax payer have to subsidise Germany's idiocy?
How about we do what the Germans did for us back in 2010, in the name of solidarity, and offer you a loan of €250,000 per person at 6% interest?
Don't worry, you can choose what services to cut and where to raise taxes in order to pay us back - we are brothers in Europe after all.
All I'm fucking advocating is a common foreign policy and an Army. That's fucking all and I will be dying from happiness if that happens. Otherwise, Europe will become the dying cucks, home for the elderly, all while China and USA fucks us in every hole.
I have already understood the neccesity of war and support every decision made by Angela.
>>59022394
>Why the fuck should the Irish tax payer have to subsidise Germany's idiocy?
Migrant crisis is not result of german idiocy. Their "invitation" might have caused an increase in amount of people who decided to come, but you'd be hard pressed to give an accurate estimate. If you want to blame someone for migrant crisis, blame people who fucked up the countries of origin - the natives and whoever played their games there (USA, Russia, France, Brits...)
And Irish taxpayer wouldn't be subsidizing that but dealing with the fallout. And rest assured that he will suffer even if whatever you think would be a good idea gets implemented.
>How about we do what the Germans did for us back in 2010, in the name of solidarity, and offer you a loan of €250,000 per person at 6% interest?
I'd like to see some sort of evidence that bailout funds had actually interest this high.
Not to mention that it's fault of your "accountable" politicians that you were in this shit in first place.
>>59022319
You might or might not be right but I don't like "if you disagree for the first time we try it for the second or third or until you accept" approach
>>59022672
>Migrant crisis is not result of german idiocy. Their "invitation" might have caused an increase in amount of people who decided to come, but you'd be hard pressed to give an accurate estimate.
And it wasn't the pre-German fuck up level flow that put Europe into crisis, was it?
>And Irish taxpayer wouldn't be subsidizing that but dealing with the fallout
And -why- should we deal with it? Give me one good reason why we should subsidise Germany's mistake?
>Not to mention that it's fault of your "accountable" politicians that you were in this shit in first place.
And the politicians who got us into that mess got massacred in the elections in 2011 - they're still not in power and we've just had an election.
And blaming it solely on our politicians - when most of the investment that overheated the economy came from German or British banks is deliberate disingenuity.
>>59022954
I don't like the idea of having to care for migrants that don't even want to be here any more than you do, but right now I'm not seeing any viable alternatives, and our politicians don't present any either.
I agree with what our official with EU says that money would be better spent in refugee camps in Jordan, Turkey etc, but that does nothing to resolve issue of migrants that are already here.
It also sounds like there's more to the commission proposal than just the quotas, but these are the only thing that gets repeated in media. It ought to be more comprehensive than that.
>>59022648
Spread them cheeks boy
>>59023064
What in the world would you do with literally millions of sandpeople landing at your beaches? Push them back to sea? European nations are really retarded in that they won't accept to share the burden, while everybody wants to share the profits. The refugees have to be accomodated somehow, but the real problem is that Middle East has to be stabilized. If Europe had a cohesive foreign policy that was not 'do what USA tells you to do', we actually could've some say on it. Right now we can just deal with the consequences of US' and Russia's action. I agree that most of the migrants will have to be sent back home, but only after it won't be a warzone.
Also, if EU becomes centralized, power of Germany will diminish greatly. Now they benefit from being the biggest nation. If EU becomes a confederation, they'll just be a small fraction of the entire Union. I still really believe that most powers should be left in the hands of constituing nations, but we HAVE TO become a single entity if we still want to matter on an international stage.
>>59013829
Because I don't want foreigners running my country.
>>59015174
This would be so much better than what we have now. No need to pour billions into medieval tier countries anymore, no more huge budget deficits to throw money at and a lot more similar culturally. Just put Merkel, Verhofstadt and Juncker in front of a firing squad and we're good to go.
>>59023298
>What in the world would you do with literally millions of sandpeople landing at your beaches? Push them back to sea?
Yep. If that's what it takes to stop them coming.
>but we HAVE TO become a single entity if we still want to matter on an international stage.
Ireland is never going to matter on the world stage, and we don't want to. I would much rather be a nice, small, wealthy and irrelevant country over being a poor, nigger-infested shithole part of a large and relevant country.
Take your dreams of the EU being a superpower and fuck off.
>>59023389
Then you literally want just to dabble in your own shit and lick other's cum, because in this world you have to sell yourself to the best bidder. It's better to have some influence in EU then to have no influence under Chinese/Russian/Indian/American/Xenomorph protectorate. And if you literally want to drown people trying to escape from warzone, I just wish your ancestros died in Gorta Mór
>>59023064
>And it wasn't the pre-German fuck up level flow that put Europe into crisis, was it?
Have you been paying attention to the migrant crisis at all? People were coming by thousands long before Germany announced it will be taking them in.
>And -why- should we deal with it? Give me one good reason why we should subsidise Germany's mistake?
You will deal with it because you're part of Europe and you're integrated into european economy. You will deal with these problems either directly by participating in mechanisms designed to sanitize them, or you will suffer indirectly from damage it will do to your trading partners. Even if you decide to go autarky, you will suffer for it. And again, while germany is not without blame, their role was only minor.
>And the politicians who got us into that mess got massacred in the elections in 2011 - they're still not in power and we've just had an election.
Good for you. That didn't stop the damage from being done though.
>And blaming it solely on our politicians - when most of the investment that overheated the economy came from German or British banks is deliberate disingenuity.
Oh wow. So you're saying that evil foreign investors destroyed your economy by showering it with money you invited with your policies?
Your politicians are responsible for your institutional environment, nobody else.
>>59013869>>59013869
>15% of EU population
>20% of EU GDP
>"Because Germany are in charge"
>>59023389
>Yep. If that's what it takes to stop them coming.
Well, in that case you're out of luck because for now only a tiny minority would genuinely advocate this sort of approach, no matter if on national or european level.
Perhaps history will repeat itself and violent thugs will get their way. We will see.
In any case, good night to you.
>>59023534
>People were coming by thousands long before Germany announced it will be taking them in.
And now they come in the millions.
>You will deal with it because you're part of Europe and you're integrated into european economy. You will deal with these problems either directly by participating in mechanisms designed to sanitize them, or you will suffer indirectly from damage it will do to your trading partners. Even if you decide to go autarky, you will suffer for it. And again, while germany is not without blame, their role was only minor.
You are aware there's more to the world than the EU, right? Our two largest partners are the UK and the US, other European countries are relatively small.
If we were truly suffering from EU's market environment then we'd be stagnating like the rest of you, not having grown at almost 8% of GDP last year.
>Good for you. That didn't stop the damage from being done though.
No, but they were held accountable for their actions. How exactly are Irish people going to vote against damage caused by Germany? We can't.
>Oh wow. So you're saying that evil foreign investors destroyed your economy by showering it with money you invited with your policies?
No, I'm saying you attributing a problem SOLELY to us and then saying "migrants isn't germany's fault they only minor roles good boys dindu nuffin;_;" is fucking retarded.
>>59023516
>It's better to have some influence in EU then to have no influence under Chinese/Russian/Indian/American/Xenomorph protectorate.
No, it isn't. The EU has done more to interfere in my life than the Americans, Russians or Chinese have.
America isn't the one dictating laws to us. Europe is.
You might be afraid of Russia, but we were being attacked by Loyalists and rogue British military forces for over three decades. We're not afraid, we don't need a federal Europe to protect us because we're not pussies, you filthy little slavscum coward.
>>59016210
commission just proposes stuff, its the council and parliament that jointly (for the most part) pass stuff, both of which we're fairly represented in
also I think Cameron decides the commissioner, so yea the commissioner is indirectly elected
>>59023516
The only ones who could possibly be interpreted as escaping from a warzone into Europe are the Libyans, and even then they're clearly choosing to make the extra effort to "escape" to a more profitable destination. The "refugees" are almost exclusively economic migrants "escaping" safe countries.
