>when someone says Finno-Ugric languages are difficult to learn
>some even claim they're worse than Slav languages
When will this meme end? We don't even have grammatical genders for fuck's sake. Slavs have like... 3 or even more. They also have a shit tons of cases, irregularities, and it's impossible to pronounce anything in their infernal language that has no vowels. To me it sounds like they're speaking in tongues, tbqh.
Finno-ugric languages on the other hand are highly logical, irregularities are few, and they're phonetical too, allowing free flow of speech. You even get meme points for speaking them! On the other hand, speaking slav languages just gives you alcoholism, and a weird fondness for squatting.
>>58993268
people who can't speak agglutinative (logical) languages can't comprehend anything other than their own mother tongue and languages following the same pattern.
>>58993268
Well, being a Slav, my subjective opinion would of course be that Finno-Ugric langs are hard to learn
From a more objective perspective, I think that people are saying that because of the lack of exposure to Finno-Ugric languages. Also, on paper, Finno-Ugric langs look terrifying, 71564 noun cases, new letters, unfamiliar grammar etc.
>>58993268
Schwa is a vowel.
>>58993268
Forgot to mention
>be Hungarian
>complain about shitton of cases
Cmon now...
Menkää töihin saatana.
>>58995156
tarkalleen
>>58995156
Perkele?
>>58995206
>>58995352
Älkää kiusatko minua.
>>58995384
Älkää kiusatko minua?
>>58995384
Olen hyvin pahoillani, herra
>>58995384
Mikä on ongelma?
>>58995472
Poista kebab.
>>58995493
Ei ongelmaa Fritz :)
>>58995584
Aina ja ikuisesti, ystäväni
>>58995721
Halataanko? <3
>>58993268
>>58995089
>complain about shitton of cases
this, even though they are just prepositions pretending to be cases, it is still a fuckton of specific endings to memorise
>>58995807
Tietenkin! <3
>>58995895
Exactly. And you also need to understand when and how to use them, which is a different beast entirely.
>>58993268
>Slavs have like... 3 or even more
Masculine, feminine and neuter. What else do you want?
>They also have a shit tons of cases
8 is max. Usually we have up to 7 cases compared to your 40 cases...
>irregularities
There are some usually related to the most basic verbs like "to be" and so on. Same in your language.
>and it's impossible to pronounce anything in their infernal language that has no vowels
Vowels are for pussies, deal with it lel
>and they're phonetical too
You mean your orthography is phonetical? Serbian orthography is way better than yours in this aspect btw.
>>58995384
Kaksoispiste viiva dee dee dee
>>58996187
>What else do you want?
Animacy?
>8 is max. Usually we have up to 7 cases compared to your 40 cases...
It's not about the number of cases, but about the number of declension patterns. 40 cases are not a problem if they're always formed the same way.
>>58993268
I guess it's the vocabulary of these languages that puts a lot of people off. Grammatically wise, Hungarian is very simple.
>>58994697
Is turkish an agglutinative language
>>58996681
Originally the masculine and feminine genders were for animate and neuter was for inanimate. This got mildly fucked up during the later development but it's no where near the German tier.
>40 cases are not a problem if they're always formed the same way.
Ok, so if you take the maximum 8 cases and multiply it with the max number of declensions 3 you get 24 cases with the "same type of forming"
Less than any Finno-Ugric language anytime
>>58996866
Yes, it is
>czech'd
>>58994883
>>58993268
Not to mention that SCHWA IS THE MOST COMMON VOWEL BOTH IN ENGLISH AND IN MOST SLAVIC LANGUAGES! So the stereotypes go both ways, eh?
>>58996777
German is the same for anyone who isn't a non-Anglo Germanic speaker in that the vocabulary is completely unrelated to any familiar Latin or French roots and that most words are ungodly long and/or similar to each other bar a single letter. And yet we make do, don't we?
>>58997009
>the max number of declensions 3
You forgot about the stress patterns and the vowel dropping. Also Finno-Ugric languages make the plural forms using a single suffix, while Slavic languages use a special plural ending for every case.
>>58993268
You have way more cases though.
Also Slavic languages are phonetic as well.
>speaking slav languages just gives you alcoholism, and a weird fondness for squatting
>lmao slavs=ruskies amirite xD
rude
>>58997636
My biggest concern with Russian is и, I never know if it's pronounced "i" or a frank "yi"
I also can't pronounce ь when it's between two consonants, I just hold the sound a bit longer
Being French (a language with no stress), I also struggle with the Russian stress, and I end up pronouncing every vowel with almost the same intensity
>>58997636
>stress patterns and the vowel dropping
Now this IS the real problem people face when learning Slavic languages. I mean, it is sometimes hard for the natives too, what would you expect of foreigners?
And don't forget sound changes. That nonsensical bullshit is all over our language. It is terrible. Also, irregularities. All languages have them, but this is just...
Please praise Finland.
>>58997955
Are you one of those basement dwellers who forget how to speak their own language?
>>58998154
No, but are you that guy who bases his assumptions on a post on an anonymous board and later believes that assumption to be true?
>>58993268
A good step into agglutinative languages are Turkish and Farsi. Farsi is better here because it gives you a vocabulary advantage (being an IE language, as opposed to Turkish), though it is a bit more grammatically complex than Turkish. Turkish grammar is very intuitive and harmonious and it's fairly easy.
Farsi, on the other hand, has THE alphabet...the alphabet we all dread. The catch is, the letters are highly intuitive. You can learn the alphabet in a matter of days, the language, like Turkish, is phonetic with very, very little irregularities, it's literary-wise unchanged for centuries (which makes it even more appealing). The biggest obstacle with languages like these is the SOV word order. You have to start thinking "invertly". Now, an Iranian will understand you if you use SVO, the word order is rather flexible in speech, but literary, it's SOV. Turkish is also SOV, but sounds more....rudimentary
I had a chat not long ago, with an acquaintance studying Hungarian, and the way Hungarian sentences "unfold" when translated...you have an "a-ha!" feeling about it. It's much more logical than my native language...but the pre/suffixes do cause a scare
>>58998253
Yeah, I find it hard to believe a native would have problems speaking his own language.
>>58998332
Speaking his own language CORRECTLY. That is what I meant.
Everyone everywhere is butchering their language because they are dumb. but here we also butcher it because people simply refuse to learn 50 tomes of fucking Serbian grammar. And that is a problem for the Ministry of Education, not the speakers
>>58997825
>и
>a frank "yi"
>>58998332
>Yeah, I find it hard to believe a native would have problems speaking his own language.
>he finds this hard
Ahahahahahaha
>>58997955
What are you talking about? Stress is almost always on the first vowel. If you don't know, stress the first vowel, there's a one in a million chance you'll miss
Sound changes are also intuitive because they translated to other languages as well. Even Turkish for example has the same consonant "softening" before certain vowels or a hardened/softened letter after consonant "collision". Most languages have itother languages so it's nothing strange),
>>58998517
Your mother found my dick hard.
>>58998476
>Speaking his own language CORRECTLY.
>butchering their language
Languages existed a long time before grammar books appeared, you know? If your speech differs from the codified language, it doesn't mean it's incorrect.
>>58997825
>My biggest concern with Russian is и, I never know if it's pronounced "i" or a frank "yi"
"i"
>I also can't pronounce ь when it's between two consonants, I just hold the sound a bit longer
Soften the consonant coming before the "ь", it's not pronounced separately
You can practice by reading Polish infinitives, and also see the difference between Slovene/Croatian infinitives, ending in "-ti". While we retained that "i" at the end, with a clear sound, East Slavs have "melted" it down into "ь". Poles have a mid-way pronunciation. It doesn't really sound like our "-ti" infinitive form, or the Russian "ь"
who /agglutiantive/ master race here?
>>58998517
>What are you talking about? Stress is almost always on the first vowel.
That goes only for one- or two-syllable words, like "sat", "truba", "drvo". In words with more than 2 syllables, stress is almost always on the second syllable, at least in Serbian. There are exceptions to both of these though, but you know that already
>>58998647
It is not only grammar, it is some simple shit, like not using some cases, using some cases where they are not to be used, pronouncing words however they like it, etc. I understand there are variations and dialects, but that is not what I am talking about here.
>>58998647
>Languages existed a long time before grammar books appeared, you know? If your speech differs from the codified language, it doesn't mean it's incorrect.
But then you end up with languges that can't seem to stop devolving into other languages. At first it was just latin, then italian, then french, then spanish, and only 500 years ago portugese mutated into existence, then there are those mixes like catalans who are well on they way to become a new language again. It's just terrible.
>>58998792
Languages change, there's nothing bad about it. Most of the "mistakes" aren't normally noticed by native speakers.
>>58998331
Every order works in Turkish SOV-SVO-OVS. Mostly it is OVS
>>58999048
There are much more languages dying than appearing right now btw
nahhhh.
finnish would be cool to learn 2bh but the vocabulary is just too different, no latin influence
i'm down
>>58999048
> then spanish, and only 500 years ago portuguese mutated into existence
No. Read more.
>>58999300
Well, yes, but only like, languages nobody really cares about. Really obscure ones nobody even heard of. Can you name a language going extinct right now I'd even recognize?
I personally think that new languages create conflict and strife, thus they should be prevented from appearing in the first place. A common shared language leads to unity and harmony, cooperation between people. All it takes is for the population to stop mouthbreathing and form words properly. It's not exactly rocket science.
>>58999613
There was something about a law then in Portugal, I don't recall the exact details. But my point is, yours is a "new" language, relatively. With a bit of an effort you could still stop the growing drift between Portugese and Spanish for example.
>>58999245
Can you tell me, in layman's words, what "agglutinative language" is? What makes it agglutinative? What other language groups exist, beside agglutinative?
>Stress is almost always on the first vowel.
It's not the same in the East Slavic languages though. To decline a word, it's not enough to know which declension it follows, you also need to know how the stress changes in different cases. Most of the words belong to the four most productive categories, but it's still extra information to learn.
>>58999856
In the 13th century, there were hundreds of literary works in Portuguese, while Spanish was only beginning to be standardized.
Portuguese started being disregarded due to the existence of the Iberian Union in the 17th century, when the Portuguese Empire was challenged.
In short, Portuguese is not a "new language" at all. It's older than Spanish
>>58999921
Talo=house
Talossamme=in our house
That's agglutination
>>58998517
>What are you talking about? Stress is almost always on the first vowel. If you don't know, stress the first vowel, there's a one in a million chance you'll miss
Well, that's not actually true for Slovenian. In fact, in Slovenian you have a 50/50 chance that a word will be stressed either on the first or the second to last vowel.
Not to mention that we have two O and E sounds each that are not denoted in our alphabet, so that the speaker has to remember the stress and vowel length for every new word by heart. And they can both feature in the same word with a repeated vowel (such as pòdóba).
>>58999856
>Can you name a language going extinct right now I'd even recognize?
Hmm, Karelian?
>>59000645
Karelian is just Finnish with funny spelling
>tfw speaking natively the most beautiful language of the world
>>59000467
I appreciate your answer, but it didn't tell me anything
>>59000426
t. Alberto Barbosa
>>59000950
Slavs confirmed for idiots.
>>58999921
>Can you tell me, in layman's words, what "agglutinative language" is?
Yes, You stick stuff at the end of the word and it gives it new meaning.
nyal - lick
nyaló - somebody who licks
nyalóka - lollypop (get it? because it is being licked )
nyalókázik - somebody who's consuming lollipop, or performs oral sex. (because oral sex is a lot like eating lollipop)
nyalakodik - somebody licking/eating something enthusiastically, kissing enthustiatically (implied derision in the latter meaning)
seggnyaló - asslicker
etc.
>>59000426
I really ought to read a bit more about this. My previous data suggested the opposite.
>>59000950
agglutinative = each suffix has a meaning and only a meaning (see his example)
analytic language = individual words, no suffixes (chinese)
flexive languages (serbian, spanish...) = declensions, plurals....suffixes can give several meanings, for example
gato (cat) = "-o" means it is masculine and singular
gata (femenine cat) = "-a" means it is femenine and singular
rosae (in latin, roses) = "-ae" meant that it was a name, femenine, plural. It could also mean ablative case, femenine, plural....etc.
>>58995384
Olet homo
>>59001052
segg :DDDDDDD
>>59001109
So, in short: we "reshape" words and they kinda build them up, like Legos?
Man, I wish I weren't so shit at learning languages otherwise I'd try to learn Hungarian. It's so calming and pretty. Funny that it's related to Finland's shitty meme language.
>>59001251
sort of, yes. We also have suffixes with a lot of meanings, but they have suffixes with only one meaning, that's why their words are bigger.
here are some synonyms for the word 'walk, move' in hungarian
megy, járkál, mászkál, sétál, cselleng, kódorog, caplat, gyüszmékel, sétálgat, téblábol, lépdes, cirkál, jár, lép, halad, vonul,kering,vándorol, csoszog, lépked, kóvályog, lépeget, lézeng, araszol, totyog, tipeg, ballag, lépdel, vánszorog, baktat, gyalogol, őgyeleg, ténfereg, lődörög, bandukol, kujtorog, kullog, battyog, dzsal, csámborog, billeg-ballag, kutyagol, lépdegél, slattyog, előbattyog, kolbászol, szédeleg, jár-kel, tévelyeg, poroszkál, császkál, andalog, cammog, mendegél, megyeget
>>59001311
Am I the only one who likes finnish here? It sounds nice and funny
>>59001419
No, I also love Finnish, and Estonian too
>>59001398
So what? In spanish, the same verb:
andar, caminar, circular, recorrer, avanzar, patear, transitar, deambular, errar, marchar, remover, agitar, menear, revolver, hurgar, zarandear, batir
activar, impulsar, propulsar, acelerar, agilizar, impeler, apresurar, estimular, instigar
>>59001362
Thanks Rafa, I kind of got it now.
>>59000867
I don't know about beauty, but it sounds funny as hell. I sometimes watch the news in Hungarian to get a few laughs.
>>59001499
>his language only has half as much synonyms for the same word as hungarian
>>59001572
It has more in fact, but I didn't feel like writing them
trasladar, desplazar, mudar, correr, apartar, quitar, empujar,remover, agitar, menear, revolver, hurgar, zarandear, batir, trotar, cabalgar, pindonguear
>>59001499
>activar
>instigar
>estimular
I dont know if those have the same meaning than the portuguese equivalents but if they do you're memeing too hard, it's time to stop.
>>59001550
No problem
>>59001721
he asked about synonyms of "move, walk" and those are very precise synonyms of "to move", at least in spanish.
>>59001683
>i-it has more synonyms I s-swear
>he-here are some words that are in my p-previous post and some new ones hehheh...
>>59001251
Yep. Kinda. In my opinion it makes a lot more sense to build magnificent castles out of legos that fit perfectly together creating unity and harmony, rather than carving them out independently, inperfectly, then separating them for blues and pink or maybe even green, because who knows, and imposing strange arbitrary rules that constrict the language.
English to Hungarians for example feels incredibly simplistic and bland. Reading literature in this language is awful compared to ours. English lacks the nuances and tiniest details we can express in our language.
>>59001135
Want me to teach you how to swear? :^) I can be exceptionally nasty. You'd have the mouth of a sailor.
>>59001311
Look at the very first post. it is easy.
>>59001683
ARRRIBA
MUALAVA SE LA, SI CORAZORA DE MAIJA VUELTA DANSA KUDORO
>>58993268
>tfw both parents are Komi but i was born in Moscow and don't know a single word in Komi language
For the name of my ancestors tomorrow i'll start to learn it.
>>59001770
Oh, I didn't realize. Then hungarian has more, fo course. But it's not as rare as you think, I guess. I liked "billeg-ballag" though.
>>58997011
Czech'd yourself
>>59001884
>both parents are commies
I'm feel so sorry for you, anon
:^)
>>59001311
>Man, I wish I weren't so shit at learning languages
No such thing as being good at languages or being bad at them. Make time, sit and learn. Not gonna be easy, but nothing that has any worth is easy.
>>59001851
I see. Well, maybe Slavic languages are harder then. I need more data and more thinking to do. Agreed on English and literature though
>>59002083
Slavic languages are harder because they have declension, genders and weird as fuck vocabulary (obviously, this depends on the person's language).
English is easy because it is a flexive language (like serbian) but it's so simplified that it's leaning towards analytic languages like chinese. In fact, perhaps in 100 years it will be considered analytic.
>>59001884
You should
one word
vowel harmony
*drops microphone*
/thread
>>59002817
tos oli kyl kaks sanaa vitun tampio :DDD
>>59001884
>tfw all Finno-Ugric languages in Russia have Slavic-like phonetics
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nveXhaz7Og4
>>59001884
Good luck anon.
>>59002083
They definitely are harder imo. They could do with a language reform. That's when they artificially renew a language to imrove it in general. Hungarian had one, back in 1800's because we had used so many latin words, because the official language was latin for centuries.
Our best and brightest writers and authors worked hard to create new words,shorten overly long ones, got rid of the latin ones and created new words from old finno ugric ones. Like the example above I posted, you can see we can create new words very easily. Also in general they just tried to make sense of the language. Győzedelem became--->győz. It means victory. The -delem added no meaning to it, so they culled it.
In my opinion a lot of languages could do with a MAJOR language reform (especially fucking French) But it is not my place to decide.
It's just, people think that languages are some sacred things that cannot ever be touched and improved upon, but it is not so. Sometimes they need a bit of pruning and help. Turkish did the same thing btw, back when Atatürk or whatshisname ruled.
>>59002817
>vowel harmony
Now wtf is that
Layman words again, please
>>59003037
Easier pronunciation.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vowel_harmony
![94f03e8e72647373f93d5271ee594cfb[1].png](https://i.imgur.com/yhGD38i.png "94f03e8e72647373f93d5271ee594cfb[1].png")
I can't believe Europeans actually took a hodor tier language for trading.
>>59002941
True, Serbian needs a rework, not a major one, but some key elements need to be changed, some even thrown out. Now that I think about it, there is some really, REALLY old shit that needs to be dealt with
>(especially fucking French)
Agreed. Reading it is as painful as it gets
>>59003037
We have high and low vowels. There are two words that help you remember them, but if you'd speak the language you'd do it automatically.
Uborka - (cucumber) those there are the low vowels---- > u ú o a á.
Teniszütő - (tennis thing you whack the ball with) these are the high vowels ----->e é, i í, ü ű, ö ő
So if you want to agglutinate a word, like, ház. That is a low vowel there. You want to say, in the house. +ban and +ben are the suffixes you need to use. They both mean - in.
Then you say, ház+ban. házban. Házben is incorrect because E is a high vowel. Get it?
Ház+ban=házban (inside the house)
hely+ben=helyben (in this place, here)
Eb+ben=ebben (in this)
Ab+ban=abban (in that)
It creates harmony. Personally I don't see it the point. Maybe it makes the language less hideous maybe.
There are a few exceptions of course, but generally it works like this.
>>59003915
Thanks Nagy, I really appreciate the explanation. I would guess the reason for this is >>59003265
>>59003915
Bridge = Híd
on the bridge --> 'hídon' instead of 'híden'
to the bridge --> 'hídra' instead of 'híden'
argument discarded
>>59004194
>to the bridge --> 'hídra' instead of 'hídre'
whoops typo but you get my point
>>59004194
>Bridge = Híd
Mostovi - Hidak is probably the most boring show on Slovene national television.
>>59003915
same here, only difference it is "thick/thin vowels" for us. Although, we have two different vowel harmonies. The second one is "straight/circular" distinction.
O, Ö, U, Ü are circular vowels, while A, E, I and İ are straight vowels. The second group can only be followed by a sound from the same group. The first group must be followed by either A/E or U/Ü.
I tried learning spurdoish once, never fucking again.
>>59004108
Gladly. Though now I'm really worried. All this explaining is making me question whether I have autism, like Aspergers. I literally can't stop talking.
>>59004194
But think about how our language would sound if every word-harmony was the same! It'd be disgusting. Do you want every single word to be like töpörödött törpördögök? Just no.
Also, I actually use hídre :D Felmentem a hídre. Probably tájszólás.
>>59004481
Fascinating! Another Finno-Ugric trait Türkish has. I'm fairly convinced our language families are related somehow. No grammatical gender, vowel harmony, agglutinative techniques. It's just all too suspicious is all I'm saying. It can be no coincidence.
>>59004896
How far did you get with it?
>>59005508
>But think about how our language would sound if every word-harmony was the same! It'd be disgusting.
>harmony is bad
chaotic fag pls menj innen
>>59005775
Then conjugate Hungarian however you desire then.
Nem remeteg kecske ette rettenetesen e nemes eledelt kehelyben, mert remete. Rendelkeznem kellene ellened de nem lehet. Eme rettenet mente kegyedet.
Wow so butifel
much hungarian
10/10 would speak like that forever
>>59006332
>Nem remeteg kecske ette rettenetesen e nemes eledelt kehelyben, mert remete. Rendelkeznem kellene ellened de nem lehet. Eme rettenet mente kegyedet.
For those who speak only English, this was entirely correct grammatically btw, and even made sense to us.
>>59006332
now you just went full mekk elek
wtf i hate hungary now
>>59006405
S lett rettenet. Kegyed kezdte. Fenyegethet, de nem kertelek: nem engedek.
You asked for it. Is this balanced enough now? Or should I write an entire book like this?
>>59006715
Actually - we do have an uralic word for fire. Tűz.
Also I think you guys ask almost the same thing we do if you don't understand something
Mi - mitä?
>>59006995
>Mi - mitä?
more like
>Mivan - mitä?
>>59007311
Nah, it's Mit.
>>59006813
>you will never have a qt sztyeppe grill who you can shoot arrows with sitting backwards on a horse to kill dogfaced tatárs while solving a rubiks cube
>>58995206
>Arbeit
This pleases the german
>>59006995
Tüz? Nice, in finnic languages it's tuli
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R8WZnLSDThg
>>59015910
>that dildo-knife
