Wtf I hate Poland now
>Working with Muslims to destroy European history
>>58759047
I understand why they kept getting partitionned by their neighbours, because they don't deserve that land.
>Mendelsohn
that is a pretty shitty thing to do considering there's no lack of industrial woodstuff even in pooland
So... what happened to all the other primeval forests?
>>58759930
polish immigrants cut them off
>>58759930
There are no forests in mainland europe
>>58760035
Yeah and now everyone wants to steal ours.
>>58760035
Why the fuck does it trigger me so much that there's so little forest left?
>>58760119
thats what happens when population growth and jews get out of control.
>>58760119
Gotta build ships gotta sail fast.
>>58760147
fugg
>>58760191
t. deforested island shits
>>58760119
Because it's not something you can get back
For europe to get forest with the level of biodiversity that anywhere in canada has it would take thousands of years
>We cut out all our primeval forests but you poland must preserve yours or else you are meanie
westard logic
>All this butthurt over the cutting down of trees.
Go outside and plant some trees you hippies.
>>58760422
Most of it was done centuries ago before people really understood what they were doing, not in the 21st century.
>>58759047
The current hysteria against Poland is just ridiculous.
>>58760643
IT'S 2016
>>58760860
no, it's "before people really understood what they were doing"
What is the case in Poland? They don't understand or are just prettending to be retards?
>>58760860
>2016
>Pooland still acting like its 200 years ago
kek
>>58760842
That's what you get for being a bad goy and not accepting le ebin syrian doctors and engineers
>>58760035
>Overpopulation isn't real
>Europe isn't densely populated
>Europe can sustain its current living standards without massive material imports
Reminder that England, France, Germany, Italy, Spain and Poland all have higher population densities than places like Egypt, Ethiopia, Mexico or the DRC.
>>58760912
>>58760643
We got to cut down our forests and enjoy the benefits but god forbid if you do so Poland.
You guys are like the people who dont want the 3rd world to industrialize because it will cause pollution. We got to industrialize and it caused a lot of pollution, we get to enjoy the benefits of industrialization. But because we did it over 100 years ago it was ok, but for others to do it now is bad.
Fucking liberals.
>>58760860
So? People and things have generally improved over time, you would think people would make better decisions now than centuries age.
>>58761039
I don't have an issue with 3rd world countries industrializing, but I do take issue with them being multinational dump sites the just fuck everything up.
>>58759047
People need jobs. The irony is tree huggers in this thread spend all day in their rooms.
>>58761039
We'll build a wall, and make Germany pay for it!
>>58761039
The dirty secret of capitalism is that not everyone can benefit from it at the same time.
>>58761113
>jobs
Logging is due to old trees destroying insect infestation
It is especially deadly against oaks, and other slow to grow but long-living trees
Minister of enviroment explained this, that logging is to stop spread of insect, but some ecologists argue that forest should not be interfered with
Cut them all down Poland.
I want to bathe in liberal/hippie tears.
>>58761039
So, it's okay to do shit because somebody else did it too?
And what about the countries that did the exact opposite and since medieval times have grown trees and forests in their country? Why imitate one and not the other?
>>58759047
Poland can cut all the trees they want, for all I care, at least they're preserving their culture
>>58761169
They wont be the same though. A nation that has industrialized in the past 30 years isnt going to be the same as the US, UK, or Germany. They will be vastly different.
But for that nation that industrialized 30 years ago it will be much better then it was 50 years ago.
>>58761226
And it's okay yo hamper our progress because you already get wealthy enough to care about nature?
>>58761039
The difference between us industrialising and China, is:
a) Knowledge of climate change and the damage we are doing to the planet,
b) The sheer scale of the population of China far exceeds the original Industrial Revolution.
Of course, this will fall of deaf ears because you deny climate change is real.
Fucking conservatives.
All of you belong to an orphanage.
>>58761226
>So, it's okay to do shit because somebody else did it too?
If it leads to a better off populace due to a middle class emerging then yes. Especially when compared to the environment.
>>58761416
How will it be better when the environment is fuck and they can't grow enough food to feed themselves? Or that they are underwater due to sea levels rising?
>>58761392
Get bent Poland, as a result of the EU you have received a net gain of development that far exceeds any other country.
Getting a bit too big for your boots considering you've been propped up by us and other "westards" for so long.
You're up there with Mexico for irrelevant posters who are way too cocky for what they actually are.
>>58761339
>global warming
>>58761339
Then get off your asses and create a viable carbon capture system to get rid of said carbon in atmosphere.
The whole "build green" and "green energy" is just a fantasy of the left. If you gave a damn about the environment you would be more focused on carbon capture, not solar panels.
Of course, this will fall on deaf ears because oil, coal and gas and their use are evil to liberals.
>>58760035
Eh we already had to import baltic lumber from the late middle ages onward.
>>58761491
Get fucked pommy, you barely count as european
If your island would be few meters further to west we would consider you native americans and genocide you accordingly
>spruce starts spreading all around the forest, threatening the bio-diversity
>foresters can't do shit about it because of the protection laws
eh
>he fell for the climate change meme
>>58761291
You think that's the reason people don't want you to put down one forest? To "hamper Poland's progress"?
You think too highly of your country. Some people don't. Some people think a primeval forest is worth more than what Poland can get by destroying it.
>>58761544
m8 you can't even genocide the jobbies in my toilet properly
>>58761514
>it is my countries responsibility to invent technology to stop China destroying the planet
I don't so. They shouldnt be allowed to destroy the planet for all of us, the rest is their problem.
>>58761491
at least no one in my country demands sharia law
kys yellow teethed scum
>>58760422
What >>58761516 says mostly.
Western Europe ran out of forests between 1000-1600, England started forest conservation and tree planting around 1650 (fucking treehuggers). Meanwhile it's 2016 and you still consider cutting down that last bit of *cough*Prussian*cough* forest down.
>>58761606
If you care so much about that forest, why won't you pay for it?
>>58761544
Proved my point perfectly
>poland
>>58761488
US and UK went industrialized and look at their environments.
You act as though if a country were to industrialize its environment would be destroyed. This is just false.
>>58761514
>Average conservatives intelligence
why are poles, even born in other countries such miserable, ill tempered, egotistical twats?
>>58761643
because we're forced to pay you to stop continually shitting the bed.
>>58761611
I can see brits learned how to use toilets. Now just start using toothbrush and we might consider you half-civilized
>>58761663
Have you looked at the UK recently anon ?
And the US is like 90% empty land
>>58761590
>He fell for the koch brother's shill's lies
>>58761663
Climate change and environmental damage are a global problem, they aren't limited to a single country.
>>58761614
Instead of creating technology that would benefit the entire world you would rather try to impose limits on other countries and keep them down/poor?
>>58761416
I get your point, but it's a stupid dychotomy.
>either we destroy the enviorment, or there won't be a middle class
Poland's options for growth can't be that bad that the only solution for it is taking down a primeval forest.
>>58761514
>do my science for me
what fucking pansy ass American are you?
>>58761733
Then stop selling coal to chinese, will you?
Oh I forgot, in all these years Australians never built any sustainable form of economy and you all rely on digging up holes and selling what you find to someone else.
>>58761740
isn't that what you're doing to iran and north korea?
Liberal faggots like this >>58761614 tell us we need to save the forest and keep the ocean clean but they're all using apple products made in china.
>>58761810
apple is a dead meme and Americans bought into it when it was still living.
>>58761769
>destroy
You use this word.
Did the US, UK, France, Germany, ect get destroyed when they industrialized?
>>58761841
americans buy into everything
except for decent housing.
>>58761740
Why is it our responsibility to industrialize China?
The only time we are justified to step in with their affairs is when what they are doing things that affect all of us on a planetwide scale. It can't be ignored. There is overwhelming evidence that climate change is real and China has a ridiculously big population and is industrializing. I'm not prepared to support that.
>>58761643
Because we already are paying for our own forests.
Some people just want to try and elucidate Poles on the value of a primeval forest rather the economical one.
>>58761740
Every chinese city is polluted to the point it will make you cough and be extremely hard to breathe on bad days, and Beijing is facing a massive drought because they literally can't get enough water to the city even with canals
Perhaps they should rethink their policy
>>58761863
>UK, France, Germany, ect
they kinda did
and the only reason the US is the exception is because of Teddy Roosevelt, who you would've called a libtard faggot because he didn't want to turn the Grand Canyon into a waste dumping ground.
>>58761774
US spends billions on creating technology for solar panels and wind turbines.
Nothing much to show for it but a bunch of bankrupt green energy companies. We gave Solyndra 535 million dollars and what happened? They went bankrupt.
But god forbid we spend some of that money on carbon capture instead.
>>58761878
>Why is it our responsibility to industrialize China?
Who the fuck said this? All I hear is "take carbon from the atmosphere"
>>58761863
What?
Obviously THEY not. Did I say that they did?
I said your dychotomy is reductive and stupid.
There are more options for growth than destroying - NATURE -.
>>58759867
>>58759047
and where is your primeval forest?
there aren't any right?
you cut everything.
you don't deserve the land, and you will be replaced with niggers.
>>58761948
Been to the UK and France, they looked fine when I was there.
>>58762030
>Who the fuck said this? All I hear is "take carbon from the atmosphere"
You did, in a round about way:
>Instead of creating technology that would benefit the entire world you would rather try to impose limits on other countries
The bottom line is: man made climate change is real, it's getting exponentially China is causing it, China needs to stop. There is literally no alternative. Everything else comes later.
>>58761900
Several of your components in your PC is made in China. If you care about China's environment so much you'd stop buying Chinese products made by companies that harm the enivironment. You don't really care about the enironment, you only like the feeling of being morally righteous like all liberal hipsters.
>>58762113
*exponentially worse,
Damn I really need a cup of tea today.
>>58762104
>filled with brown cities and terrorism
>"fine"
found the Ahmed
>>58762119
I'm not morally righteous, I'm not a liberal hipster, and I don't quite care about China's environment
All I'm saying is they're doing industrialization wrong
>>58762119
50 cent army shill detected
>i-it's okay if I use Chinese products stupid gweilo hehehhehe
Western Europe is the most hypocrite when in comes about environment
They destroy all their forest but when others do that it's a big NO.
Same thing with the Amazon, they are the ones that most consume wood from there but at the same time are against deforestation
Best part is it's not even polish forest but german
>>58762183
and autism meds
>>58762284
see
>>58761339
We're not hypocrites at all. The game has changed.
>>58762406
The only one having a meltdown is you tbqh
>>58762200
>i get all my info from /pol/
oh yuros
>>58759047
>Tom Mendelsohn
>>58762406
I really think about what makes London, Paris, Berlin and Rome so different from the surrouding areas.
>>58761039
Hey!
My ancestors stole, raped, and killed on the British isle. Why shouldn't I be allowed to do the same just because it's 2016!?
>>58762406
I would love to know the psychological underpinnings of climate change denial.
source for pic related
>http://climate.nasa.gov/evidence/
>>58762690
>Comparing raping and killing to industrializing a country so said country can have a middle class.
>>58762432
But thats literally tumblr fat acceptance the pic?
>>58761514
Already on it.
Shell are looking into using old oilrigs in the north sea to fill CO2 back into where they got the oil and gass.
One of the bigger gas refinery's in Norway are now building a new installation for a group of scientists who looks into producing and harvesting a very specific algae by using the pollution from the refinery.
The algae are intended to be used for fish food production.
Also Norway is mainly using electricity instead of gas for heating and power in general, which the majority comes from hydro-electric plants.
>>58762816
I'm not comparing the actions, but the logic you're using.
>>58762535
fucking rain, at least the swiss have it worse
>>58762816
Imperialism created the entire middle class though.
Does this mean imperialism is acceptable?
>>58762696
Did you take the measurements that chart is based on yourself? Who are the people making that chart? Are they biased? Are you even interpreting it properly?
Media, agencies, and universities lie all the time. You probably believe in the women's wage gap too. You're just another liberal retard who takes whatever the academia and government says as gospel truth.
>>58763530
So because I don't personally know the scientists and their research, I can't believe that what they say is true? Trusting *everything* the government says isn't a good idea but never believing anything they say is just as dumb.
>>58761491
the funds are an investment, not a bribe to make us shut up. the eu will never improve if we're not allowed to criticise it. although i am personally grateful for all the help, no amount of money will change the fact that the eu is run by retards and cucks
It's just fucking trees, cut them all.
NOOOOOO!
Hold up, let me go out there and go mushroom hunting before you wreck that shit.
I like how everybody is complaining about Poland when in reality the fact hat Poland has the oldest primeval forest means that they were the most careful about their heritage and land.
>>58763753
Scientists verify and reproduce the work of other scientists.
You don't have the tools and the brain to verify what they're saying is true. You just take it at face value because you're a moron.
>>58760035
The UK at least is continually planting trees, albeit slowly. Needs to speed up. But yeah trees are pretty great.
>>58760035
>UK
JUST
>Białowieża Forest (Belarusian: Бeлaвeжcкaя пyшчa, Biełaviežskaja Pušča; Polish: Puszcza Białowieska Polish pronunciation: [ˈpuʂt͡ʂa ˌbʲawɔˈvʲɛska] ( listen); Russian: Бeлoвeжcкaя пyщa, Belovezhskaya Pushcha) is one of the last and largest remaining parts of the immense primeval forest that once stretched across the European Plain. The forest is home to 800 European bison, Europe's heaviest land animal.
rip in pieces last bit of mainland european nature but got to get those ikea desks to china asap
>>58766466
Considering the UK was the first industrialised country and its empire was built on ships galore, I'm surprised we have as much trees and countryside left as we do.
>>58766548
We should have made our ships out of pakis desu, we have an endless supply of them.
>>58766533
Spain has more forest than you
If you guys like primeval forests so much then maybe you shouldn't chop down yours.
>>58763530
I'm actually believe the pay gap, and feminism in general, is bullshit.
At the same time, I believe in man made climate change.
I do my own research and come to my own conclusions, I don't brashly wave something off as "false" because the government said it.
This isn't me btw >>58763753.
There is overwhelming evidence that climate change is a real thing. Feminism on the other hand is a tool used to leverage social power because women have a vested interest in it. Scientists do not have a vested interest in climate change. To believe in a big conspiracy where they are being paid off in whatever means is ridiculous.
Пиepдoлeн кypвa мaть! He тpoжьтe Бeлoвeжy!
>>58766631
>>58760035
>>58766740
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_forest_area
We need more lumber!
>>58760035
tbf most the land used in Flanders is for farming because we don't live in a frozen shithole
>>58760035
hnnngh, granted 95% of the forest is heavily managed.
>>58766701
why are you feeding a babby tier strawman from an idiot
>>58766375
>I suffer from dunning-kruger
we know, anon :)
Didn't you know that the Black Forest is just Norway Spruce and imported firs brought there in the XIX century. The original primeval forest is long gone.
Isn't there one in Bosnia?
>>58759047
Isnt there one in Serbia too?
Isn't there one in Antarctica?
>>58759047
people in charge of the forest want to log out some of the trees because of wide outspread of bark beetles or something.
Green sons of bitches are outraged because muh primeval forset will magicly deal with them by itself.
I think that people who actualy work there care about the forest the most and have more knowledge about it than some fucking eco morons who do shit about planet except leeching money from corporations and calling it "public consultations"
>>58763530
>universities lie all the time.
>You're just another liberal retard who takes whatever the academia and government says as gospel truth.
Arguing against the academia happens somewhere else than on 4chan. And by arguing against science, you need to prove things, instead of digging up some mental theories out of your own arse and reducing your cognitive dissonance by any means possible (like finding an online group who agrees with you).
I don't consider myself to be very "liberal" myself, but the sheer stupidity of some parts of the general populace in the developed countries sometimes just astonishes me to my core.
>>58760035
Based Slovenia desu
>>58759047
>westard sensationalism strikes again
There's a debate up about whether we should or shouldn't cut down a number of trees due to borer plague. Some claim it will save the forest in the long run, others claim it's bullshit and we should leave it be.
But nobody straight up said that "lol let's cut down our forest for wood monies xDD". Even if that is the actual reason behind the logging and the whole saving thing is just a cover up, they can't just openly log the fuck out of Białowieża.
>>58762696
scary
I think personally I consume less CO2 than a 1950 person. I use quite a lot of electricity yes but that comes from nuclear power so it doesn't make any co2. I will never buy a new petrol car in my life. Have one now sure but I bet it spit less co2 than a 1950 car. I do recycle my trash. I mean, what the fuck is going on ?
>>58769648
>Green sons of bitches are outraged because muh primeval forset will magicly deal with them by itself.
It somehow did since forever
>I think that people who actualy work there care about the forest the most and have more knowledge about it than some fucking eco morons who do shit about planet except leeching money from corporations and calling it "public consultations"
ok tell me this - this wood that is so decimated by insects, it won't be sold to idea to make chairs. Right? Riiiight....?
>>58761590
>he literally shills for billionaire industrialists FOR FREE
>he gets all of the detriments of environmental harm and none of the benefits
>again he does it for absolutely no compensation
You are more of a cuck than the janitards
>>58766375
>"education = ELITISM" conservitard detected
Hows that GED working out of you Cletus? You get over that distrust of book learnin' yet?
>>58770954
>ok tell me this - this wood that is so decimated by insects, it won't be sold to idea to make chairs. Right? Riiiight....?
they are forbiden by law to sell wood from białowieża
>It somehow did since forever
białowieża was modertated first by kings gamekeepers then by state ones for few hundred years.
>>58766438
>>58762696
>>58762420
>>58762183
>>58762113
>>58761678
I didn't even know europe had any ancient forests still hangin around. We hardly have any in the US
>>58763530
see >>58770363
People are suspicious of what they do not understand.
If you were even remotely knowledgeable about science you would know that science isn't based on listening to what people say. It's not a fucking church, where the priest talks and everyone listens and takes it unquestioningly, and that's the end of it.
Science is based on facts. Everything that is claimed must be verified, sometimes hundreds of times, before it can be taken as fact. Climate change has been verified in tens of thousands of independent experiments. For tens of thousands of scientists all over the world to perpetuate a conspiracy is so improbable as to be, for all intents and purposes, impossible.
But if you stubbornly believe that anthropogenic climate change is a lie, then the onus is on you to prove it. And I mean actual make a hypothesis and test it via experimentation, not post JPEGs from /pol/ or Fox News or Facebook or wherever retards get their """knowledge""" from nowadays.
But you won't do that, you CAN'T do that, because that would require actually thinking independently and doing original research. Something that you presumably are incapable of doing. It would also require an education in science, something I'm certain that you can't do either.
The worst part is you don't benefit from your ignorance. Air pollution, water pollution, ecological disruption, diminishing ozone layers... all of these take years off your life. The only people who benefit are the industrialists who don't give two shits about you or your health. It makes me sad, thinking of you supporting their bullshit while you do all the suffering and they do all the getting rich
>>58763530
Take your medication Alex Jones.
>>58771460
see >>58771022
>>58771502
We have tons. Millions of acres of pristine, thousands of year old trees.
>>58767415
That's a picture of Loch Garry!
>>58761514
But building green is about carbon sequestration nowadays. Green roofs for example are a very neat thing. Also, please take political leanings out of this. Science is objective, it has no political party you either accept science or choose to deny it, that it that. Environmental engineers are about sustainable materials and any kind of mitigations that can be used to reduce pollution as much as possible. Climate and environment exists as a whole entity globally but there are different scales. Local scale is where you start and work up from there. There are many ideas out there right now regarding mitigation of CO2, biogeochemists, environmental engineers, and economists are only now beginning to collaborate more and more to find viable solutions. Sure the ocean takes up most CO2, the problem with that is ocean acidification. Obviously planting trees leads to more sequestration but it's still not enough. I can tell you we are working on it, and we'll find a solution sometime soon. I'm a chemical engineer but I worked with a lot of environmental engineers and I've seen the vision they have. Speaking with ecologists they're very fond of carbon markets, which is just an offset, but going to conferences and speaking to people I would never dream of speaking with in other fields is helping to stimulate ideas, I'm confident there's a solution
I just get bummed out that people to this day still cling to the idea that the only people who care about the world they live in and their own environment are "hippie lefties" who worship mother earth. Everyone should care about their environment. Do people take the advice of medical professionals if they say something can cause cancer? You bet they do. For some reason a gap hasn't been bridged with environment though, this is a health issue for everyone
>>58770901
There are 3 times as many people. Also electricity and cars are enjoyed by even more of a percentage of the world's population than in 1950. So three times as many people, and way more % of the total have things that contribute to global warming.
And we tell India and China and Africa to go green, but they don't see why they should. We got to be a dirty as we pleased on our road to an industrial, developed nation... why shouldn't they enjoy the same privilege? And it IS hypocritical of us to ask for sacrifices from them that our countries did not have to make. Ultimately, we're probably going to end up subsidizing or paying for their green revolution. White man's burden, I suppose...
On another note, I think a global two child policy is the best way to fight global warming. The enemy is growth, of which CO2 levels and global warming are merely a symptom. Why do we always have to be growing? Why can't we just... stay the same size?
>>58772174
Imo decreasing the population is essential But considering how poor countries have those HUGE birth rates and medical assistance from the first world, it's not going to happen.
>>58771502
Where do you live, Wyoming? Even PA, one of the most populated states, is full of hundreds and hundreds of acres of undisturbed wilderness.
>>58771942
But the UKs environment was destroyed in their industrial revolution...
>>58760332
thousands of years eh
>>58760035
how are the UK and the netherlands still even alive at this point?
>>58767104
work work
zog zog
>>58775679
Farmland is more useful then forest, just ask Brazil.
>>58761039
We're talking about Poland here, not Indonesia
They can enjoy all spoils of civilisation without cutting down that forest
>>58775743
This particular forest is much more valuable than some fucking field
Poland would lose one of the last sanctuaries of European bison and a precious remnant of wilderness
That's stupid
>>58761589
It's really bad when foreign countries fund mass land evictions and "garden of eden" type if conservation.
Both being cancerous as fuck.
>>58761733
Yet the poor countries suffer it 10x more then the developed world and you guys + India and China fuck up environment talks every single time or break promises.
>>58763296
It's not but under the table yeah.
>>58780691
Bialowiez forest isn't anything like that
>>58781077
Just saying in otger countries.
Like in central Africa we basically fund pretty fucked up shit to conserve forests.
>>58759047
>Europe's last
But that's bullshit.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_old-growth_forests#Eurasia
>>58769219
It's in Bosnia.
>>58781997
>Bosnia
>Europe
>>58782122
Just check the list you shitter, there's one in your country too.
>>58761039
This
>>58783162
POLAND WON'T GAIN ANYTHING BY CUTTING DOWN THAT FOREST
THEY WILL ONLY LOSE SOURCE OF INCOME FROM TOURISM
>>58761039
This>>58761339
>a) Knowledge of climate change and the damage we are doing to the planet,
We knew perfectly well what damage we were doing to the forests and environment in the 1500's.
>b) The sheer scale of the population of China far exceeds the original Industrial Revolution.
And yet China since reliable world estimates began in 1970, has yet to catch up to America and Europe's CO2 production.
A country 5 times larger than America has produced less pollution than America.
A country needs to pollute to develop. Unless your country wants to provide the funding for green energy??
Oh wow. Look at that. It doesn't. The developed world wants its cake and to eat it.
>>58761614
Considering your country benefited from destroying China, yeah.
China over the last decade added 60% of global renewable energy.
China also produces almost all the pollution-intensive heavy industrial products that the developed world buys.
About 30% of China's CO2 production is from exports to foreign countries.
http://www.economist.com/blogs/graphicdetail/2015/12/climate-change
>>58759047
Am I on Reddit?
You people are reacting to a headline and only a headline
>>58771822
>people are suspicious
I'm suspicious of any science that actively uses fear tactics for mass funding purposes
I'm suspicious of any science like that
The fact is climate science is one of the MOST complex sciences out there with a fuckton amount of variables and very complicated partial differential equations
Dunderheads like to simplify it to something like
>put CO2 in get bad out
>>58784100
Cont*
http://www.economist.com/node/21679288
>>58784143
Retards are getting triggered
>>58770363
Not him but you do know how wrong you can be right?
I'll give you an example
Psychology recently had a HUGE reproducibility study
You know what they found?
Their numbers were disgustingly low in terms of what could be reliably reproduced
The lowest ever found for a science to date
I don't believe environmental sciences (especially the climate side) have had such a huge study done on them yet but I'd be very interested in seeing their results
Science does not get verified as much as you would think
Most of it is: "Well this looks right. Here you're published."
Because no one is going to sit their and reproduce the findings of every single one of your papers
Shit like that happens all the time on the academic level.
