How do you go from this...
... to this
>>57445430
VETO
E
T
O
>>57445451
pretty easy
>>57445453
>all of that empty territory
Why did you let the Russians get it!
>>57445511
the pope fucked it up the first time
and later we were too busy getting invaded by Swedes during Civil war caused by ukrainian fags
>>57445505
Wow it's even shaped conspicuously similar to Africa
>>57445430
>C*tholicism
>Elective monarchy
>lack of Polonization
>not ressetling Ukrainians
>not destroying Russia in 1612
>not destabilizing HRE with France
>not annexing Prussia
>not allying with Ottomans
1) Shitty monarchy.
Unlike other European monarchies that continued to centralize, in Commonwealth the nobles (Szlachta) and magnates wielded the most power. It's almost like the situation in pre-feudal western Europe when the "King" was mostly a titular title and wielded considerably less power than his """vassals""".
2) Got gangbanged:
For a long time Poland was the most civilized nation in the area, but with emerging Swedish, Russian, and Prussian Empires, they got #REKT to the point there was no chance of recovery. Sweden probably did the most damage, and Prussia, Russia and Austria just divided the rubbles... Combined with reason number 1m there was no effective Polish gov to do anything about it.
3) Ukrainian rebellion:
While by itself it wasn't THAT disastrous, the rebels soon made an alliance with Russian Empire, so the commonwealth had to fight not only enemies outside their border, but also enemies inside. Which is sux, right?
4) Eastern Europe became increasingly irrelevant:
The Pope always liked big strong Catholic states, which Poland was one of them. Normally, he wouldn't let (Orthodox) Russia or Protestants to have a piece of Polen - but sadly after the "Thirty Years War" no one gave a fuck what the Pope thinks anymore.
Also any trade routes through the eastern Europe became obsolete 'cause new sea trade routes and colonization and shiet.
Belarus and Ukraine rightful Lietuvan clay.
>>57445661
this
>>57445625
>>57445684
take them, all yours my friend
Why Belarus exist? Belarusian people is an artificial meme thing no? Ukraine too?
>>57445630
Thanks for your answer, they don't teach anything about this part of Europe in schools here, other than Poland being invaded in WWII
>>57445661
Knyazes for decades fight with each other. Later some tribe come and conquer them all.
Never changin'
>>57445879
We were always cucked by catholicism desu.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hl7t19eXy88
>be pole
>be crusaded by Vatican and HRE, they burn your vilagges, kill your countrymen, rewrite your history and destroy your original culture
>some time later
>be attacked by teutonic order that wants to genocide you despite being christian
>some time later
>be step away from annihilating Muscovy then be cucked by pope who got letter from Ivan the terrible saying that he will convert to Catholicism if he tells poles to back off
>King dies
>Another polish-muscovite war breaks out soon after catholic zealot is elected as the new king
>He's one step away from installing his son as Russian tsar as muscovites are tired of war and boyars want privileges and golden freedom like polish nobles
>At the last second he backs it off saying that his son wont convert to orthodoxy and chance to have strong ally is destroyed for centuries as poles were seen as invaders
>rulers excommunicated and cursed left and right by Vatican for hosting jews and other heretics
>defend Catholicism at Vienna, saving Europe from Islam
>some time later
>get partitioned due to political crisis, pope bribed by Austria doesn't helps
>some time later
>almost every uprising condemned by bribed pope
>some time later
>Vatican supports nazis
>2016 Poles still suck jewish jesus dick
Anyway, I'll dump some battles to honour Polish-Lithuanian(Belarusian) friendship
>>57445837
belarusians are just special snowflake russians 2bh
>>57445990
>>57446014
Nah, they're much older. They're Ruthenians.
They also spoke their own language untill they got Russified by Russkies.
>>57446077
>>57446115
>>57446039
>>57446077
>>57446115
>>57446166
On vacation?
>>57446166
>>57446206
nah, i'm akshually that baltic german "vandalpole" shitposter, but drunk so might as well dump battles.
haven't seen swedepole in a while.
>>57446264
Poland was a mistake.
>>57446307
not really a PLC but still funny.
looting HRE scum
>>57446350
>>57446396
>>57445430
Well at least now Poland is monoethnic and monocultural. This means we don't want any Orthodox faggots except Belarussians and we don't want western degenerates except indifferent to everything northern people. You heard me right - we don't want degenerates from both East and West here
>>57446440
>>57446444
Okay, but the question was actually about Lithuania, see >>57445451
>>57446486
>>57445430
How do you go from this...
>>57445430
>>57446716
...to this?
>>57446716
>>57446769
wrong, they went to this.
russia is 3rd rome
>>57446798
fuck yeah
http://varlamov.ru/1635553.html
>>57446769
We in glass houses...
>>57446798
orthodox OUT
>>57446716
>>57446769
>>57446798
>someone asks a serious question
>"oh wait, he's shitalian, i must ignore his question and fill his thread with unrelated shit xddddd italians arent romans they shit at war xDDDDDD"
>>57446716
How do you go from this...
>>57446915
to this
>>57446939
kek
>>57445661
Belarus and Ukraine is rightful Kievan Rus' clay
>>57446915
high score m8
>>57446798
wrong again, finland is the true heir to rome
>>57446995
Princess of the Kievan Rus is rightful Polish clay.
t.
>>57446995
It ceased to exist with the Golden Horde.
>>57446904
Was this game accurate to your people's history?
>>57447064
>playing videogames
>>57445990
>He's one step away from installing his son as Russian tsar as muscovites are tired of war and boyars want privileges and golden freedom like polish nobles
Nice memed, nobody wanted dirty Poles to rule our country. That's why the rebellion begun and Poles were wiped out from Russia
>>57446915
>a fucking leaf
>>57447113
At first boyars wanted the same rights and cutoms like Poles had.
>>57447187
What's why one of the boyars leaded the rebellion?
>>57447113
>Nice memed, nobody wanted dirty Poles to rule our country.
50% of your boyars did at first, later voting ensued and the 45% voting for Polish civilised life lost as they were in a minority.
>That's why the rebellion begun and Poles were wiped out from Russia
Except Poles "weren't wiped out".
>>57447240
Because they changed their mind.
>>57446486
>>57447395
rude
>>57447395
HURRI PERKELE NOTTA SIE MIU PALKKOJA ALA MAKSELEMAA NII MIÄ KUULE LYÄ SINNUU TÄL PUUKOL SAATANA
>>57446486
WTF i hate sweden now
>>57447492
>>57447789
So that's why you try to be so altruistic towards muslims?
>>57447926
Nah...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bonnier_Group
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bonnier_family
^
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KxTeQLL2p2c
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dCDMGu-xi30
>>57445630
>polish-ottoman alliance
This. We really had no reason to fight each other, other than religion for both sides I suppose but alliances between Christians and Muslims happened before(as with Ottoman-France alliance)
>>57448503
>We really had no reason to fight each other
...
>>57448591
tell me one. Poland and Ottomans had minimum coveted lands. And religion is mostly a meme reason to fight.
Hell, PLC and Ottomans had friendly relations during some periods in history. And even after PLC was partitioned.
>>57448503
>>57448789
Yeah.
Fight was mostly pushed first by Habsburgs begging for help in early 16th century. Cossacks breaking truce and raiding Ottoman Empire and Moldovian region.
Other than that, there was no need to fight.
>>57449015
Eternal Habsurg is the reason for all suffering in this world.
>>57446939
>place of origin
>united kingdom
>>57448789
>>57449015
you had some history of duking it out during some of the later crusades. (see varna)
Also not only did habsburg push for it after they got hungary, but the crimean tartars who where allies/vassals of Ottomans probably pushed for Ottoman incursions against polish interests in the same way as Habsburgs did.
Then there was also the Cossacks raiding all over the place, that probably messed up the relations as well.
>>57449174
>that probably messed up the relations as well.
And not only, Islam was the biggest factor there.
>>57449268
Geopolitics was the biggest factor, not religion din dummer.
>>57449174
>>57449268
>>57449174
"""""Crusade"""" of Varna was mostly because Pope outkiked stupid young king.
Pic related are regions Poland would rule over if Władysław III didn't listen to the popecuck and didn't kill himself against Ottomans.
Cossack raids were the biggest reason for hostile relations.
Tatars? Maybe, but it was fixable.
>>57449333
Geopolitics started being pain in the ass after Russia got stronger than us because of too many wars we were in.
>>57449268
Nah, we were tolerant as fuck.
>>57446486
SWEDE'D
>>57449520
perfidious sweden
>>57447041
It fits!
>>57445451
That's what it looked like before they were cucked in clay stealing commonwealth.
>>57450697
They conquered lands before they entered any unions lol.
>>57445625
Afriuania BTFO
>>57450792
I forgot to add "originally".
>>57446716
How do you go from this...
>>57446716
to THIS
>>57445630
>Hates Catholicism and worships the Ottomans
ok so I know exactly which fucking retarded butthurt Pole this is
Catholicism and not having an Ottoman alliance had nothing to fucking do with your fall. If you were a Calvinist (more likely than others because some of your nobles adopted this in order to assert autonomy like the French ones, although I might be misremembering how many did it) and had an alliance with the Ottomans you still would have gotten partitioned. You maybe would have lasted another 10-20 years because of the strong alliance partner but the Ottomans wouldn't be able to stop the partition fully, as they were weaker than the 3 partitioners.
Poland's main mistakes were the shitty veto, not annexing Prussia, and Sigismund III(not sure if I got this number right) being a huge dickhead.
>>57445990
>This retarded copy paste
Everyone got kicked in the dick by their religion many times, Poland is no exclusive case of getting fucked. Going protestant would have changed absolutely nothing to your ultimate fate, it would just change your retarded copy paste.
>>57451488
>letmetellyouaboutyourcountry
There would be no partitions if Prussia, Russia didn't exist. No one would stand in our way, no one.
>>57451560
>annex russia
>give russian boyars same power as polish nobles, what could go wrong?
>get fucking dumpstered back into the fucking stoneage because government is incapable of keeping all the nobles happy, AGAIN.
things wouldnt be so different, except maybe a smaller russia once the union breaks.
>>57446939
>>57449333
Yes, dictated by Islam for the Ottoman Empire.
>>57449381
>Nah, we were tolerant as fuck.
What does that have to do with the Ottomans invading, expanding Islan?
>>57451560
note I put that under "main mistakes", fucking read
Also I got most of this from what my Polish (from Poland) grandfather, polish immigrant friend, and understanding of polish history, so I am practically regurgitating what others have told me about their country.
>>57449381
The pope didn't tell your dumbfuck king to kill himself, he did that on his own by retardedly charging for no fucking reason almost by himself. Someone that reckless would have died regardless
>>57446939
lmao
>>57454681
>What does that have to do with the Ottomans invading, expanding Islam?
realpolitik
>>57455156
You do realise that the reason why the Ottoman Empire invaded Europe was to conquer and spread Islam, right?
>>57455207
that just the justification for their muslim clerics and populations and, the ottoman empire allied with many christian powers even during their early days. they married and allied with a byzantine princess against the crusader once, there was also the franco-ottoman alliance. religions wasnt the sole reason for people to wage war.
>>57455207
if they only wanted to spread islam then why did they have christians fighting in their armies as well? why didn't they forcefully convert populations like the europeans did?
ottomans were for conquering shit, they didn't care about islam that much
>>57455410
>the ottoman empire allied with many christian powers even during their early days
So? To get a better negotiating position.
>they married and allied with a byzantine princess against the crusader once,
Tell me, what happened to Constantinople?
>religions wasnt the sole reason for people to wage war.
Sure, but it was the major reason.
>>57455413
>if they only wanted to spread islam then why did they have christians fighting in their armies as well?
You mean they took Christian kids as slaves? And the Janissaries were indoctrinated into Islam btw.
>why didn't they forcefully convert populations like the europeans did?
Have you been to Albania, Kosovo or Bosnia?
>ottomans were for conquering shit
Yes, for Islam.
>>57455720
>So? To get a better negotiating position.
to get allies, like everybody else. they allied with a lot of powers in europe, including byzantine empire
>Tell me, what happened to Constantinople?
out of the 50k ottoman army that besieged the city, 7-8k were christians. they also had other minority religions in them as well
constantinople was a mess when the ottomans took over, they brought the city to another golden age
>Sure, but it was the major reason.
no, the predecessors of the ottomans were conquering shit without islam. tying their lust for conquest to islam is foolish
>You mean they took Christian kids as slaves, right? And the Janissaries were indoctrinated into Islam btw.
no i mean christian volunteers and vassals. jannissaries could also come from muslims but with a lower frequency
jannisarries were also of the bektashi order of islam, which is very unorthodox and even heresy level compared to other islamic groups
also devsirme system is more like force recruitment than slavery, it also caused a lot of problems with ullema
>Have you been to Albania, Kosovo or Bosnia?
none of these groups were forcefully converted, they all switched to islam on their own will.
have you ever been to all the other countries ottomans had conquered? why aren't they muslims if ottomans were force converting people?
hell ottomans even had separate laws for their orthodox/jews/armenians/catholics
>Yes, for Islam.
yes for power
don't mix turkish religion with arabic ones, wahhabism was banned in the ottoman empire
it seems that you are a subverted individual that knows not of history save for memes and propaganda, kinda like the ottoboos we have in turkey but in reverse. here have a bektashi joke;
>A Bektashi was a passenger in a rowing boat travelling from Eminönü to Üsküdar in Istanbul. When a storm blew up, the boatman tried to reassure him by saying "Fear not—God is great!" the Bektashi replied, "Yes, God is great, but the boat is small."
>>57456014
Christian volunteers were either poor volunteers, mercenaries or hated other Christians more than muslims.
Those troops you said, were vassal obligation troops, they didn't want to come because they liked the Ottofags.
Ottomans didn't forcefully convert, because they knew that would spur rebellions, crusades and whatnot, but instead, they had a very expensive jizya, seperated the Christians from the Muslims in the cities, made Christians usually second class citizens (unless they were talented administrators/generals/diplomats), stole Christian children from Christian families to castrate them and make them muslim, had many Christian slaves, genocided multiple Christians and had absolute control of ecclesiastical hierarchy, murdering many clerics who went against the Sultan's words.
You guys managed to be worse than the fucking Rashidun Caliphate...
>>57456188
>Christian volunteers were either poor volunteers, mercenaries or hated other Christians more than muslims.
citation needed
>Those troops you said, were vassal obligation troops, they didn't want to come because they liked the Ottofags.
>Furthermore, the Ottoman army contained several contingents of their Christian vassals, situated on the left flank of the army where the Rumili askeri, "the Balkan soldiers", stood. These Christians fought well: at the Battle of Ankara , the Serbian contingent under the Serbian Knez, Stefan Lazarević (1374–1427) , fought longer than most of the Muslim soldiers, who either changed sides or fled.
this is during the battle of ankara against timur where a large group of ottoman muslims switched side
>Ottomans didn't forcefully convert, because they knew that would spur rebellions, crusades and whatnot, but instead, they had a very expensive jizya
jizya tax was lower than what most christians had to pay before coming under ottoman rule. non-muslims were rich in the ottoman empire because they worked as traders, and were supported by the state in this endeavor. jews had this role for a long time but greeks took over in the later periods.
>Separated the Christians from the Muslims in the cities, made Christians usually second class citizens (unless they were talented administrators/generals/diplomats)
this isn't only under ottomans, cities were quartered literally everywhere in the world during this time. towns and villages had no such distinction however, not even under the events of the later eras
>stole Christian children from Christian families to castrate them and make them muslim
castration part is wrong, that was only done for harem agas, who were mostly black
its also more of a forceful recruitment than slavery. children could visit their parents and what not, it was also abolished in the 1600s
its not a muslim tradition, ottomans adopted this from the byzantine empire, devsirme was actually banned under islamic laws
>entered into a person union under a country smaller than them
>fought against the glorious Teutonic Order
cucks deserved it
>>57456188
>had many Christian slaves
sure, the europeans had many non-christians slaves
what is your point?
>genocided multiple Christians
lol its always the genocide meme
30 million dead armenians friend
>had absolute control of ecclesiastical hierarchy
that is false, ottomans were not european
the sultan had absolute power, he went against the ullema quite a lot actually
>murdering many clerics who went against the Sultan's words
citation needed
also orthodox church that was reinstated after the conquest of constantinople was very anti-catholic due to its leader
the orthodox church in turkey is still active today
>>57447041
Asians are better at math, finland being right is the only logical answer!
>>57445430
Crimea rejoined Russia in 2014.
>>57446716
roman = italian ?
Pls stop the bully
