He questioned the United States’ continued involvement in NATO and, on the subject of Russia’s aggression in Ukraine, charged that America’s allies are "not doing anything.
"Ukraine is a country that affects us far less than it affects other countries in NATO, and yet we’re doing all of the lifting," Trump said. "They’re not doing anything. And I say: 'Why is it that Germany’s not dealing with NATO on Ukraine? Why is it that other countries that are in the vicinity of Ukraine, why aren’t they dealing? Why are we always the one that’s leading, potentially the third world war with Russia.
Trump said that U.S. involvement in NATO may need to be significantly diminished in the coming years, breaking with nearly seven decades of consensus in Washington. "We certainly can’t afford to do this anymore," Trump said, adding later, "NATO is costing us a fortune, and yes, we’re protecting Europe with NATO, but we’re spending a lot of money.
Trump sounded a similar note in discussing the U.S. presence in the Pacific. He questioned the value of massive military investments in Asia and wondered aloud whether the United States still was capable of being an effective peacekeeping force there.
South Korea is very rich, great industrial country, and yet we’re not reimbursed fairly for what we do," Trump said. "We’re constantly sending our ships, sending our planes, doing our war games — we’re reimbursed a fraction of what this is all costing.
Asked whether the United States benefits from its involvement in the region, Trump replied, "Personally, I don’t think so." He added, "I think we were a very powerful, very wealthy country, and we are a poor country now. We’re a debtor nation.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-politics/wp/2016/03/21/donald-trump-reveals-foreign-policy-team-in-meeting-with-the-washington-post
RIP NATO & Pax America. Prepare your wallets or anuses. USA wants you to pay for protection now. Safety is not free anymore.
He doesn't understand how America benefits from its hegemony, open and safe trade routes and dominancy of dollar
He's a dumb hick with inherited money
Peasant that is going to bury the US and whole world with it
>>56691451
Maybe he is OK with idea of USA being just a militarized version of Brazil, and not a global superpower anymore.
I would prefer if the US withdrew more from Europe so this is ok with me
>>56691584
USA perceives you as "Europe" as well, little island.
>>56691564
But if that were to happen and dollar would lose its supremacy they'd be crushed by debt
He is going to make America little again
>>56691702
>But if that were to happen and dollar would lose its supremacy they'd be crushed by debt
That's true. Dollar is a global currency as long as USA is a global empire. If it ceases to be a global empire and isolates itself, it will lose influence-zones to China and Russia, and dollar will be a toilet paper
>>56691451
And you are a smart slovak with no money, we will count your vote twice when the time comes for you to vote, such a special flower you are. Maybe you should be happy that the US fought to get your country back into the european freedoms. Maybe you liked the Warsaw Pact, or are you to young to remember, special flower?
>>56691621
>USA perceives you as "Europe" as well
I know that. I always include the UK as part of Europe.
>>56691782
>I know that. I always include the UK as part of Europe.
No shit, really? ;) Many Brits would disagree
This is going to be really interesting. I'm actually hoping that this moron wins just to see what would happen if the US lets China and Russia alone. This, of course, implying that any of his "plans" would pass.
>>56691451
this
i bet the military industrial complex is now going to lobby people who want to keep NATO active
>>56690896
>The US not benefiting for having a hegemony over countries close to its rivals
>>56691759
Yes, vote for that madman out of spite to show those libruls who's the boss
You're going to suffer the most because of it
>>56691759
holy KEK this burger got triggered
>>56691810
>Many Brits would disagree
You've been meme'd
>>56691998
But you should care about dollar. EU and Asia are your biggest trade parters. If you lost them to Russia and China, dollar is dead along with your economy
>>56691998
What about east asia? You dont care about that either? You are fine with us power porjection constrained to the new world?
>>56691759
stop embarrassing us
>>56690896
He just went full retard, un-American gommie
NATO bomb innocent civilians in Serbia and must be destroyed
>>56691875
It is not to show the liberals, it is to show the established republicans, i blame them almost as much for the shit that is going on. There is a lot of blame to spread around, we can still be the policeman, just not the way we are doing it now. Just ask Putin.
Isn't it interesting that a man that is talking the most about American exceptionalisn wants to end it?
>>56692321
>Just ask Putin.
You are going to ask a dictator of nuclear gasoline station about shape of foreign policy that you want to do? Dude, you are American, have some self-esteem.
>>56690896
If Trump is an Isolationist then he's an idiot. His rule will be what is remembered as providing the catalyst for WW3.
>>56690896
Britain already has the largest/2nd largest military in Europe, so this means nothing to me. It's Germany and the East that benefits the most from this nonsense.
>>56692088
Our economy is one of the most secluded markets in the world desu. We really don't rely on exports at all. Exports currently make up around 10% of our GDP. Losing the EU and Asia as our trade partners would hurt us, but we'd survive.
>>56692541
But if USA reduces its obligations and engagement for NATO, your national security will be worsened as well.
>>56692321
Putin is playing with your feeble mind like a cat
If Americans vote for a man that will voluntarily cedes its hegemony, it will be the best argument against democracy and for the Chinese model
>>56692541
The people on 4chan think the US bases in Britain are there to protect Britain, they don't realise they're for force projection towards the East
This is payback for all the """""banter""""" you faggots have constantly thrown at us
>>56692629
Eh, we'll manage well enough. Its not as though he's talking about cutting off all intelligence co-operation, probably just wants to close some Military bases surrounding Russia. I support it desu.
>>56692599
You absolutely don't understand economy
USD is the main reserve currency and you're going to lose it
>>56692777
>some Military bases surrounding Russia.
Do they even exist?
>>56692376
Exceptionalism starts at home.
>>56692389
He was elected a bunch of times, even had medvedev, its not USSR anymore
>>56692943
And apparently it's also going to end there
You're going to off yourselves
>>56690896
I wonder what his view on alliance with Australia, Japan and South Korea is
He seems to have a real stick up his arse about China, so he probably favours keeping us around
>>56692389
The US needs an ally on the other side of the world, I would pick Russia before china.
>>56693015
Elections in Russia are farse. Just like their authoritarian version of "democracy" where journalists and opposition-leaders are killed on monthly basis.
>>56692657
>hegemony
No, we will always be leaders, we are USA!
>>56693133
You know what? Maybe they're doing it right
You can't trust average people to make the best decision
>>56692812
To what, the ruble??/ if anything it will make the dollar more efficient
>>56691749
The dollar's value is determined by how safe our bonds are, and how we still control the Bretton Woods institutions.
I think your "toilet paper" analogy is pretty bad.
>>56693224
You won't be able to afford that super-expensive military (and a lot of other things with it) anymore if you do what Trump says
China is going to fuck you raw in the ass
>>56693082
Honestly, i think his alliances will be stronger than just military, and I think this will benefit all the countries involved. Some people talk, Trump is action.
>>56693363
I think you read too much about what the media wants you to hear, with Trump as President and Melania as First Lady, we are unifying the continents, we need equal partnerships, not drones and wars
I think trump will just bully them into better trade deals instead of pulling out
>>56693517
This will be hilarious
Like a communist president in America during the Cold War
>>56690896
>"Ukraine is a country that affects us far less than it affects other countries in NATO, and yet we’re doing all of the lifting," Trump said. "They’re not doing anything. And I say: 'Why is it that Germany’s not dealing with NATO on Ukraine? Why is it that other countries that are in the vicinity of Ukraine, why aren’t they dealing? Why are we always the one that’s leading, potentially the third world war with Russia.
The Netherlands and Germany heavily trade and invest in Russia. The sanctions directly hit us. While the USA doesn't even get affected by it. He should shut the fuck up desu.
>>56693678
Well, we'll see about that :^)
Elect him, I'm sure it's going to be a lot of fun
>>56690896
I'm totally okay with this.
It's true and the US needs to stop being the world police and let other countries do their own jobs defending themselves
The USA shouldn't even fucking be in NATO. Mark my words, WW3 will start when some country attacks Europe and suddenly because of NATO it will be the USA's war. Fuck off and fight your own battles
>>56693698
You didn't lose so much, stop crying.
So, he is gonna force West-Europe to build a military? About time.
>>56693761
If you refuse to play a role of global policeman, you will have to say goodbye to your status of global empire as well. We will welcome here China and Russia as new protectors of status quo
>>56693783
Export isn't everything. We import more. And invest even more.
We get Russian oil and gas out of the ground, refine it and bring it to Europe.
Gazprom has all it's sub-divisons in the Netherlands. And Shell is very active in Russia.
>>56693894
Maybe you should find new suppliers?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XYqtAWe14P0
>>56693858
>We will welcome here China and Russia as new protectors of status quo
Why do we need external "protectors"? That's stupid. We don't.
NATO was necessary back when it was formed when Europe was rubble after WW2. Nowadays it's not that necessary. Russia, China and anyone else pose NO threat to Europe if we exert minimal effort.
Look at this table. % of GDP column. Look at the minimal effort needed to vastly outspend any enemy.
Compare JUST the UK and Russia.
>>56691451
And why would that end if we were less involved in Europe and East Asia?
Nowhere has Trump indicated our withdraw or our exiting of NATO, as this Pole has always claimed.
>>56693932
>giving the Russian market to competition
No wonder you're poor.
west balkans confirmed for Serbia??
>9 million population
>heavy industry
>mines in the mountains
>large and active army, half of population with military experience
>russian hardware support
vs
>no population
>no army
>tourism industry
>no nato support
ayy lmao
Bullshit, we get a lot of value out of our global military presence for what we spend. We just need to stop spending billions (trillions, maybe) of dollars on the fancy toys that are the result of the $400-per-bolt bullshit arms and defense industry. Lockheed Martin and their "amazing" F-35s can go suck a big dick.
>>56691838
Can you show me these benefits for my life?
All I know is that I lost a grandfather in Vietnam and a brother in Iraq. We are $3 trillion in debt from the War on Terror. American household income is lower than it was in 1996.
Where are these benefits to me, the voter?
Europe and East Asia DO NOT spend enough on their own defense.
>>56694111
Can you help re-establish the Austro-Hungarian Empire instead?
>>56694107
We are poor because we were under Russian occupation for 123 + 45 years. Buying oil for price lower than Russians can offer is a good business. Just like removing Russian monopoly from Europe. We buy oil from Russia as well, but now they signed with us much better contracts, because they are afraid of our alternative suppliers that could take over their share in market. I suppose that our country has much less Russian agents in government than yours.
>>56692389
Russia as an ally would be far better for America than Eastern Europe.
>>56694216
Not sure if you realize it but Russia can't even get most of it's oil out of the ground without us. You're basically talking about capital destruction.
>>56694257
Ally in what exactly? They are too weak to contain China.
>>56693612
Trump is far from communist my neighbor, some slovenians who emigrated many years ago know what that was like, and i am sure it was not better for your fathers and grandfathers, if you want a communist american president, look where Obama is today, in Havana, visiting uncle Fidel
>>56693983
You can buy a 2000$ apple facebook machine and it would be shittier than a pc I could put together with >1000$.
Not even to mention only combat able people in the entire UK hang out in sharia zones and would actually fight against you when the time comes, and no amount of tv licence budgets and plastic knife bans would keep you safe.
>>56694318
I don't care about your businesses with Russia to be honest. I care about low prices of energy in Poland and energetical security for my nation.
>>56692812
Lmao nice source you got there.
Only having 20 bases and 40,000 troops in Europe instead of 30 and 60,000 isn't going to crash the dollar.
We already dropped our overseas forces from 60 bases and 150,000 in 1992.
Why didn't it crash the dollar?
>>56693698
So let him swallow up chunks of europe till he gets to your door, eh netherlands, to bad you werent in that plane!
>>56694349
No, I meant that it would be like Americans voting in president from the enemy supported party and losing the Cold War as a result
>>56693133
Who are these journalists and "opposition-leaders" that are killed on a monthly basis?
You're telling me Putin isn't popular in Russia?
Ask the Russians on 4chan, who are the most liberal and pro-West in Russia, who they voted for.
>>56691451
He has one pipeline to voters: the new US reactionary populism.
And he knows exactly how to open the valve.
>>56694380
Because you've had no competition
This will accelarate transition to multipolar world
>>56694354
what's wrong with a $2000 apple facebook machine
>>56693698
He's talking about military help for Ukraine. Almost the entire "fast action NATO force" we deployed in Poland is American/Brit/Pole.
Do you not understand what NATO is?
>>56694486
>Who are these journalists and "opposition-leaders" that are killed on a monthly basis?
Mr Nemtsov was a prominent leader of Russian opposition and he was killed a year ago.
And here you have a list of journalists killed in Russia:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_journalists_killed_in_Russia
>>56694354
Good post Serbia
Trump is literally just a traitorous fifth column putinshill scum
>>56694378
Our businesses are the ones providing the energy security for Europe. Or do you think those oil pipelines and refineries build themselves. Companies like Vitol do that.
>>56690896
>They keep believing the random shitposts of a pollack
>>56694176
>we get a lot of value
The $3 trillion war on terror debt and $100 billion annual overseas budget isn't exactly helping that value.
Trump is simply saying we should pull more forces out. Not pull them all out or end NATO or any crazy shit. He isn't allowed to pull out of treaty obligations anyways.
>>56694216
Poland was poor before Russia lmao
Poles blame Russians for their problems like the Germans blamed the Jews.
>>56694707
You are right
Shift to multipolar world is bound to happen sooner or later (in a few decades probably)
This will only make it much more faster
>>56694332
And Europe is?
>>56694460
You have too little faith in our political system and too much faith in the words Trump says.
Stop shilling.
>>56694536
Jesus christ
How did it feel having to mortgage your house for this laptop?
>>56694486
>Ask the Russians on 4chan, who are the most liberal and pro-West in Russia, who they voted for.
No matter Russians vote, Putin will win.
It's confirmed that 2012 year Presidential elections were done with massive falsifications
The Netherlands should just leave the EU and join the USA desu. I think that would make a much more worthwhile alliance.
>>56694536
I'm a european liberal but every true conservative should hate it.
You buy it with $$$ and it does all the work for you in the background, as long as you pay even more for the newer models. Hiding it behind a shiny GUI.
If you know the UNIX ecosystem then yes, it's a UNIX machine too sure. But no-one is encouraged to use it in this manner apart from the "nomenklatura" of developers (and oh how smarmy and polite their documentation is, you actually do feel like a "dear valued ecosystem contributor" when reading it. I'm sure this is engineered to be so.)
Linux/BSD is true capitalism - take the resources and exploit them for your own ends, with your own hands. Provide internet-based services that scale, like an industrialist-era factory owner.
>>56694845
It's not a good system if a single aberration, one election, can shatter the whole post-WWII consensus
>>56694890
What would we stand to gain from it?
>>56694635
We have our own oil refineries and our own companies building them, thank you.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3tUJ0SWFFms
on behalf of norway i think we'd be happy to do more of the heavy lifting
we're been building down our military in recent years which i think is wrong
i hope he understands that the alternative is a europe with a stronger military, not a europe that pays the us for protection
>>56694560
The founder of a party with no seats is an "opposition leader"?
Impressive how much changed between your initial claim and this post's claim.
Wow do you want a list of the one's killed in America?
Criticize Putin for the proper reasons (economic fuck up, isolating himself, brutal) not for bullshit you hear on the news.
>>56694460
Obama is the enemy, and he is uS. He has taken more freedoms away from the US and introduced more overseas espionage and killings with his broomstick riding Hillary than any communist leader could , this is why trump is going to win, because Putin has more support within the US than the current administration. Do not believe everything the media " translates" to your ears, the uS is fed up with both the republicans and democrats, this could get bloody here.The political "establishment" is upset and this pleases the US people.
>>56694707
The war on terror isn't really relevant to most of our presence that he's talking about, we've had active presence in the pacific and around the world way before 9/11. If we stopped fucking around in the middle east the overseas budget would be nowhere near that. Any stats pre-9/11?
>>56694778
>Poles blame Russians for their problems like the Germans blamed the Jews.
Countries occupy and partion other countries not because they want to improve lives of their citizens, but because they want to exploit them.
Poland was richer than both: Germany and Russia yet in XVI/XVII century. XVIII century was a time of partitions, when Poland lost its status forever. 45 years of communism was probably the most devastating period in our history. In 1990 we were earn 15x less than the Western Europe, today we earn only 3x less. So progress is huge.
>>56694836
And the only ones who will lose out are those who do the least to maintain the system.
America will be fine. We switched partners before. We can do it again.
Maybe if Europe and East would actually spend on their OWN defense, we wouldn't have so many Americans supporting Trump.
>>56694935
Second agricultural exporter of the world. Biggest gas field of Europe. Biggest private oil company in the world. Biggest energy trading company in the world. Biggest port of Europe (we export as much as a third of the USA). Biggest investor in the world (more than the USA).
You'd basically get a bit smaller New York in Europe.
>>56694862
You got some "proofs"?
Even Western Analysts concluded that Putin won. Did he also not win the 2004 election?
It was his party in congress that didn't.
>>56690896
He's probanly just lobbying for the military-industrial complex so that they get big sales around the world and he gets some credit points in his attempt to Presidency.
It obviously won't work at all, the rethoric itself alienates USA further from friends and allies and obviously in the end it's just another retarded Trump bluff, because there's no way the US diplomatic/intelligence establishment would accept a withdrawal from NATO and a scale down of its political-military presence around the world, partícularly in Asia-Pacific, or the US militarily accepting the loss of a fuckton of military bases and access to ports and airfields around the world, specially in the Med and Europe, significantly damaging US force projection capabilities just because Trumps big mouth.
He'd have his ass coup d'etat/get shot in a second if he even tried.
>>56694933
>post world-war consensus
The world is changing.
These news are too good to be true. Next thing you are going to tell me is that the Greeks got the Constantinople, muslim countries around Serbia are a fair game again, and that degenerate American unculture and decay is finally done in Europe..
Too good to ever be true.
>>56694635
>energy security
you are a joke, you dont even know what the word means, you only have saudi arabia and russia around the corner and you assholes charge 5 times what the cost is for petrol, the only security you provide is to your royal family
>>56695087
Poor Americans who support Trump are going to lose the most
No medicare, medicaid, foodstamps, nothing. America won't be able to afford it
They'll pay a very real price for their own stupidity
>>56694948
A Europe that pays us nothing for protection*
ftfy
>>56695217
Shell and Vitol are bigger than anything the USA can offer.
>>56694560
Nemtsov was murdered by the Chechnyans. Everyone knows this.
>>56695154
I don't have proofs, I have my mother who were forced to cheat in elections under the threat of job firing
>>56695207
He wants to ruin your long-term strategy and you're clapping him because it sounds right or whatever
>>56695312
>Nemtsov was murdered by the Chechnyans
Chechen killers act accordingly to will of Kadirov who is a friend of Putin
>>56695016
It's compounded by the $100 billion we spend on overseas deployment.
Remember back when America used to run a budget surplus and grew 4% per year?
Yeah that's before the War on Terror.
>>56695106
We already have the largest patch of arable land on the planet, and fracking is making us independent from the global energy market. Can your country really compare to the capital and resources of the US? You'd end up just being a satellite state t b h
>>56695081
You mean you earn a fifth as much as Germany/Netherlands/Denmark.
It's been 25 years. The cries of "it was the Russians" are getting old.
>>56695106
>Biggest investor in the world
This is a joke though. 3/4 of American investments in Poland are made through you being used as proxy. It is not your investments, they belong to the USA, but they make it "through you"
>>56695295
And you still cant be more efficient than the US, shame shame shame, and how does it feel now that the price of oil has dropped 400% and your damn gas stations drop the price to consumers by 10 eurocents, got a hell of an economy for the little guy there , i thought russia was the bad guy
>>56695443
You know the Dutch government also owns a third in the largest uranium enrichment business in the world, Urenco.
You know Shell is now building 400 hydrogen pumps for cars in Germany. We can just go drive on water thanks to Shell.
You know we have the biggest gas field in Europe. We don't even need foreign energy.
>>56695492
> You mean you earn a fifth as much as Germany/Netherlands/Denmark.
Nope. Average salary in Poland is 1/3 of average salary in Germany currently. We made here a great progress and are satisfied with our lives, hence we don't want it all to be destroyed by Russia again. I think that it is quite logical, isn't it?
>>56695179
He didn't say anything you just said.
Nice shilling though.
Also, NATO is a treaty obligation the President has to honor. Even if we got a madman (woman) in office, they would be impeached if they broke the treaty.
>>56695395
Kadirov is not a friend of anyone I think.
Kadirov is like Raiden from Metal Gear Solid except the world is not a video game and people actually go quite mad from being exposed to war from an early age.
He's one of the few world leaders that actually scare me just by virtue of being himself. It's like seeing a person mutilated and think "that could happen to me".
>>56695517
Our oil prices are just based on taxes. Tax money has to come from somewhere, so they take it from the working man. What does that even prove?
>>56695363
dont worry slovakia, germany has your back, hahaha
>>56695549
Here is your energy security.
http://www.forecourttrader.co.uk/news/archivestory.php/aid/10625/Shell_commits_to_400_hydrogen_filling_stations_in_Germany.html
>>56695240
The $100 billion we save will definitely make up for it.
Or was the last 25 years of us pulling back from Europe and East Asia wrong?
Our deployed forces have fallen from 150k to 60k and the bases from 60 to 30.
You are someone who would have agreed with Clinton's "genius" in the late 90's but if it was Trump in that position you would cry about us letting go of the consensus.
Fucking defend yourselves.
>>56695616
You should worry about America if you're capable of doing something this irrational
>>56695549
We aren't very involved in Nuclear energy anymore. The American public has a bad image of it. We are more interested in natural gas now.
Hydrogen powered cars are a joke t b h, the future is in electric cars.
We don't really need your gas, because it won't feed the demands of the US. We have our own oil and gas reserves along with Canada's.
>>56695314
How come so many Russians on 4chan, who are the most pro-Western Russians, say they voted for Putin?
The word of one, and I've seen you shilling here the whole last week, is meaningless. Welcome to democracy.
>>56695649
>Fucking defend yourselves.
No problem. But we will have to cancel all contracts with American military companies and establish new contracts with Russian military companies. I think that buying an overpriced weapon from USA in case if USA doesn't want to protect us is pointless ;)
>>56695549
>We can just go drive on water thanks to Shell.
Not quite, nice try, your emissions may be water, but your costs to extract are actually much higher
>>56695363
>your
No. Your's.
>>56695555
>question the involvement in NATO
>question the involvement in Asia-Pacific
Yeah. He meant to imply everything I said. It's funny how he systematically jeopardises US interest by using agressive rethoric with implied "or else" bluffs he can be easily called for only for hisown (and business mates) personal benefit.
And you hicks love him for that.
>>56695649
We aren't in the 90s. It's not Pax Americana anymore. World has changed and you're reacting in the exact opposite way than it would make sense
Btw, why do you think it's called Pax Americana?
Every country in NATO should be paying us at least 5% of their budget every year in protection money
>>56695724
The benefit of hydrogen is that you can just fill it up. Which is not possible with conventional electric cars, who (still) need to charge for eternity and need their batteries replaced from time to time.
>>56691564
But we are militarized as fuck senpai.
>>56695851
Or maybe we should simply pay the same to Russia and get 5x more weapon for the same money? ;)
Your stuff is heavily overpriced desu and not necessairly better than Russian one
>>56695443
>making us independent of the global market
Not how that works.
>>56695553
Successful, but don't bullshit me.
Germany is $48k versus Polands $12.6k.
>>56695613
>Our oil prices are just based on taxes
Here in the US , gas prices are based on cost, not some arbitrary number that a government agency schemes up, so that the avergae working man has a chance to make something better for themselves, not to just be a sheep in the field, but then all your companies are just really government entities with a corporate flagged draped over them for show and tell, like grade school children.
>>56695912
>Successful, but don't bullshit me.
Oh you.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_European_countries_by_average_wage
>>56695829
I've always thought why some billionaire doesn't run for the POTUS and fuck up their whole system
It's a dream come true
>>56695943
Your government is just a few corporations with a big brother flag wrapped around them, like in the USSR.
>>56695989
Wondered would fit better here
>>56695749
Fat chance of that happening.
Tell that to your government.
>>56695829
Thanks for the ad hominem.
I'm actually Nisei in Cali. I'm the one who lost a brother in Iraq.
Your original post was inaccurate and I called you out on it.
>>56695841
>World has changed and you're reacting in the exact opposite way than it would make sense
The US has always indulged in isolationism when it could. It's because they can afford to. Like China and select few other countries, the US is a continent-sized country. They can be self-sufficient if they want.
You only understand this properly if you read some US history.
What's happened is that living standards for the average American have stagnated or even got worse over the last few decades. So the public don't care about projecting power any more. They only care about improving their quality of life - reaction against globalisation.
>>56695957
Okay. Different stats mean different things.
GDP per capita is as I said though.
>>56690896
Polish cucks would litterally sell their asses even to aliens just to have warmonger "protection" Polacks as you and the balts are nothing but butthurt idiots.
>>56695841
"The world has changed" is essentially Trump argument for why we should pull back more from Europe and East Asia.
I tend to agree with him. Europe and East Asia isn't weak and powerless anymore.
>>56695997
Yes, I think thats what we are trying to fix, my dutch friend.
>>56696130
Germany's nominal GDP per capita is 41,267
Poland's 12,662
So Germany's GDP per capita is 3,2x bigger than ours. Just like salaries.
>>56696145
We are not as poor as Bulgaria, we have a lot to lose.
>>56696083
Yeah, but is it really going to improve their living standards? It doesn't seem like it, the way current global economy is interconnected
Globalisation was significantly reversed with WWI, so I guess something similarly radical would be needed
>>56695866
Very true, but storing hydrogen is very tricky. It wants nothing more than to leak out of everything.
There has been quite a bit of research the past few years in new battery tech. I can foresee achieving a suitable replacement to current batteries before we work out the storage and transportation problem with hydrogen.
>>56695912
I said the global energy market. We don't really rely on oil from the middle east anymore. Aside from California, the rest of the country gets its oil from within our own borders and Canada.
>>56696042
Sorry to hear that, but I don't think that has anything to do with this.
Also, how was my post inaccurate?
Why is it bad that Trump wants to preserve peace ?
He won't bring all American troops back and disband the NATO, he is not Ron Paul.
It's pretty stupid that even in our economic crisis we meet the NATO criteria for military spending while countries like germany and france don't.
>>56695997
This is the US ...
In 2010 there were 27.9 million small
businesses, and 18,500 firms with 500
employees or more.
Small businesses comprise what share of
the U.S. economy?
Small businesses make up:
99.7 percent of U.S. employer firms,
64 percent of net new private-sector
jobs,
49.2 percent of private-sector
employment,
42.9 percent of private-sector payroll,
46 percent of private-sector output,
43 percent of high-tech employment,
98 percent of firms exporting goods,
and
33 percent of exporting value.
Source: U.S. Census Bureau, SUSB, CPS;
International Trade Administration; Bureau
of Labor Statistics, BED; Advocacy-funded
research,
Small Business GDP: Update 2002-
2010,
www.sba.gov/advocacy/7540/42371
>>56696386
>Why is it bad that Trump wants to preserve peace ?
His actions will have completely different effect though. There is a chance that you would be attack by Turkey if he was US president.
>>56692513
>>56696295
>Yeah, but is it really going to improve their living standards?
Protectionism might result in better times for some but overall I suppose it will weaken them. But they may be happy to pay that price for less involvement overseas.
Remember that the US is already quite a protectionist country. Don't believe all their propaganda about being a bastion of free trade. A classic example is the high import tariffs on sugar to protect US "corn" farmers from competition
>>56696295
This isolationism looks like an old instinct
Thy weren't really isolated since WWI
>>56696242
Okay. I then agree.
>>56696435
Not really, like I said Greece abides by NATO's laws, and it's not like the rest of Europe would want Turkey having a deeper involvement in the Mediterranean.
It's quite obvious that Trump wants to save military costs by forcing Europe to improve its defences against Russia. This doesn't mean that in case of an offensive by Russia the USA wouldn't provide support.
The important question here is whether America's excessive military spending and protection of its allies is good for its economy, the dollar, trade deals, etc.
Trump is a businessman. I don't think he would do something against America's economic interest.
>>56696475
>This isolationism looks like an old instinct
It's always been there and has never fully went away. There was also a strong element in the interwar period. Taft hated the idea of going to war in Europe to help fight the Nazis.
Isolationism + a simmering hatred of the establishment are the two constants in the US, if you know about those then much else makes sense
>>56696367
You said this
>diplomatic/intelligence establishment would accept a withdrawal from NATO
Which is complete bullshit and Trump never said or implied.
You are letting your hate for Trump cloud the FACTS.
>these butthurt 15 year old slavs don't want to make America great again
>>56696416
Guess what share of the profit they make.
It's close to that first number.
>>56696634
We don't want Germany to be "great again" because it always ends with tragedy for humanity ;)
And Trump seems to promote idea of remilitarisation of Germany that can be potentially very dangerous for little Poland ;)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dl9iPH2Mc5E
>>56696386
>It's pretty stupid that even in our economic crisis we meet the NATO criteria for military spending while countries like germany and france don't.
Pretty stupid indeed.
But in your case it's not because meeting le NATO obligations and participating in NATO deployments (which you really don't) but because your military still holds notable :-DDDDDDDD 'influence' over the Greek state and because your long standing friendly banter with Turkey.
Still, pretty retarded indeed.
>>56696435
Then America and NATO would fuck up Turkey.
NATO is a treaty obligation. If the president ignores it, the president gets impeached and replaced.
>>56696621
Yes, it makes sense
Isolationism didn't win out though because getting involved was good for business
Both world wars incredibly weakened Europe and strengthened the US
>>56696416
We have more businesses per capita than the USA, with 1.5 million companies on 17 million people (we actually reached 17 million people today).
http://www.dutchdailynews.com/more-and-more-small-businesses-in-the-netherlands/
But I guess that's a fairly useless statistic, besides reminding you the USA is not an unique snowflake.
>>56696435
Uncle Putin would love to help his orthodox friends, and if Turkey enters the EU then Russia should join too. Now we got a party , thats a schengen zone I could love.
>>56696814
> Russia in EU
>>56696872
Don't redpill him to much, it could be dangerous for his mind health
>>56696628
Read again, I said "there's no way the diplomatic/intelligence etc.."
Trump is bluffing on 'you fags buy my mates on the military-industrial complex stuff or else [le disertation on unfair and excessive involvement of USA in NATO and Asia-Pacific that needs to be corrected if you don't gib moneys to my mates].
Yes. That's exactly his (stupid) game and that's exactly one thing the US military and the US intelligence/diplomatic establishment would never let him do.
>>56696666
If the rest of the world encouraged or allowed or produced as much as our small businesses the world would be a better place
>>56696814
Fucking hell...
>>56696754
It was more than that I think. The Americans realised that if a single power controlled the European continent, or a large part of East Asia, they're utterly fucked. If you look at the situation today, although it makes sense from an objective view to continue hegemony, it's much much harder for the US élite to make a convincing case to the public. The events of today (terrorism, messy forever wars) play to the nativists and protectionists
>>56697131
That's why they try to keep the UK in the EU (and preferably Turkey as well). And the Netherlands who will probably follow the UK's example. So they can keep tabs on the EU.
The USA fears an EU that's just run by Germany and France.
>>56696042
>Fat chance of that happening.
Why? If you go away from Europe, Russia will be the strongest player on the continent in natural way. So we will be forced to buy weapon from Russia along with guarantees of safety if we want to live in peace, because Russia will be the one deciding about peace in Europe.
>>56696768
>fairly useless statistic
I applaud the efforts of small businessmen worldwide, this is how the world will grow ... why so melancholy regarding this ?
>>56697243
A German-French Europe could easily sway to Russia instead of the USA, which would be their worst nightmare.
>>56697243
Well regarding the EU, the UK's fear is exactly the same as the USA's - the continent controlled by a single entity. But Hitler and Napoleon were a much bigger worry than the Eurozone. The Eurozone is so dysfunctional it's painful to watch. Even better it's not dominated by a single country. People who think Germany's in charge are wrong, Germany is becoming isolated and they're starting to decline any way
France and Germany have such different ideas about the EU that the idea of that merging into a single state is for the fairies
>>56697292
>Russia will be the strongest player in Europe
Lmao
>>56697422
>Germany isn't in charge
>Germany is in decline
Lmao
>>56697057
Keep your friends close and your enemies closer ...
so the EU would rather have the invading muslim hordes into the EU with no visas, but not their slav brothers the russians .... mindblown
>>56697422
>The Eurozone is so dysfunctional it's painful to watch. Even better it's not dominated by a single country. People who think Germany's in charge are wrong,
They are not wrong. Eurozone is a Geman project used to boost its export. Whole economy of Germany is based on export. They need a weak currency to make it more competetive on global market. That's why they created eurozone and included to it many problematic countries (f.e. Greece with massive debts), to reduce its value. If they were using their own Deutsche Mark, it would be stronger than British pound and it could kill their export
>>56697524
>slav brothers
>>56697457
Yep, you should try reading the news. Care to tell me how many EU countries ended up taking their suggested refugee quotas? Or what happened when Germany asked Schengen countries not to close their borders?
In recent weeks you had Austria - AUSTRIA - blatantly do the exact opposite of Germany's suggested policy. It's a shambles and you're ignorant as hell.
>>56697528
No offence but boiling this whole thing down to Germany exports is stupid. Also the weakness of German growth is amazing when you consider they're an export economy with artificially low currency and super cheap oil
>>56697635
>Also the weakness of German growth is amazing
They are prospering perfectly. They have the biggest trade surplus and biggest budget surplus in whole Europe.
>>56697635
>reading the news
Lmao
>>56697524
We are ebil commies, not slav bros
>>56697422
Dude, Germany can dictate what happens in all Germanic countries.
And France in the Romance countries.
The Netherlands is integrating it's military into the German one. And the Czech republic is preparing to do the same.
>>56697701
>And France in the Romance countries.
I am afraid that Germany can dictate a lot to France as well :D
>>56697701
>Germany can dictate what happens in all Germanic countries.
>And France in the Romance countries.
Lmao
Someone tell me about his foreign policy team. I don't recognize the names apart from Walid.
>>56691759
Think before you type, holy shit...
>>56697778
>I don't recognize the names apart from Walid
Lmao
Fuck. Europe can burn, it made its own bed. But i really think we need to keep a presence in asia to keep china in line.
>>56697678
You don't think prosperity has anything to do with economic growth? Only the surplus matters? Explain this logic to me, I don't get it.
>>56697701
>Dude, Germany can dictate what happens in all Germanic countries.
You're an ignorant fool.
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-europe-migrants-austria-germany-idUSKCN0VZ1RT
>This week the tensions reached a new peak as Austria, in a defiant move, hosted a conference to coordinate new border restrictions with a handful of Balkan countries to its southeast.
>It was the latest in a series of decisions by Vienna - including two awkwardly timed announcements of numerical caps on refugees entering the country - that have undermined Merkel and infuriated her allies in Berlin, who accuse their smaller neighbor of betrayal.
>German Interior Minister Thomas de Maiziere ominously warned Vienna this week of "consequences".
And that warning of "consequences"? Did absolutely nothing. The borders closed anyway. You people on this site have this mental image of Germany and the EU like a sort of 4th Reich, you're so detached from reality it's cringeworthy to see
>>56697131
The funny thing is that the things you mentioned (terrorism,messy forever wars) are directly by-products of american global hegemonic policy being utterly mismanaged (or in the case of Irak, retardedly mismanaged as well) after the Cold War.
How can the establishment reconcile the fighting for freedom and democracy nicey narrative sold to their public opinion for generations with the more actual, down to earth and on occasions dirty deeds of national interest and hegemonic policy, especially when it comes with by-products like terrorism Guantánamo, Irak, and so on?
It's complicated indeed.
Trump is smart and capitalises on that natural reaction of seeing isolationism as the fantastic solution to the problems someone else, be it the guys in Washington, Putin, the terrorists or whoever have created. It obviously won't but le smart populism is strong in the Tramp
>>56697422
Is this not where Russia could provide some balance, or does the UK and the Continent just fear that russia would just strongarm the whole zone, hell their GDP is equal to that of Italy, thats what the EU is scared of ??? Churchill would be sad ...
>>56697864
I don't claim that Germany rules EU in authoritarian way, but Germany is most important and most powerful country in this organisation that has the biggest ability to shape it.
>>56697864
We had been pushing Germany and Austria to get border controls. Our government wanted to disband Schengen entirely. And wanted to create a new one without South and East Europe. But Germany wouldn't agree to it. :^)
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-europe-migrants-netherlands-idUSKCN0T81J720151119
>>56691621
The UK really isn't in any danger of a Russian invasion to be honest
>>56697972
Fuck you, Netherlands
>>56697693
You havent been ebil commies since the wall and reagan, at least you guys did not sneak attack us like the japanese, and look how we helped them, even after we nuked their asses
>>56698081
Sure. Poland probably ain't either. But it is always better to have more safety than less safety.
>>56697972
That really does not help in integrating and promoting regional trade, something all the countires should be encouraging, all though, it seems most of the trade does seem to be coming from germany to other countries, but with the schengen the germans have opened many plants throughout eastern euorpe exploiting the cheap labor in eastern countries, but any job is better than no job, right greece
>>56697940
Russia is far too weak to pose a real threat to the Continent. What the Russians can do is threaten the ex-USSR countries, some energy blackmail (but that's getting harder every month as Europeans seek new supplies) and that's about it. Only the Baltics would be difficult to save for the European powers, but they'd also be difficult to save for the US. To secure them properly you need some permanent serious military hardware there.
But yeah you need stronger European militaries so the Russians aren't tempted, and also so the Europeans can project power
>>56697964
>but Germany is most important and most powerful country in this organisation that has the biggest ability to shape it.
Sure. What does that ACTUALLY mean for the EU though? Have you ever put Germany in the context the real EU? You must do that before speaking about German power. So here it is
80 million population out of 500 million EU population. That means Germany is a minority in the European Parliament and every single voting institution of the EU and the Eurozone. THAT means that Germany can't do anything without other countries helping them.
The German economy, in Euros, €3 billion out of the EU's €14.625 billion. Which is 20% of the EU economy.
In other words 80% of EU economic activity is NOT from Germany.
Contributions to the EU budget? They pay the most but again they're a minority.
I know these basic facts, so I'm not surprised when I read in the news that Germany tries to do something and everyone else ignores them. I AM surprised that so many people on here don't realise how weak an isolated Germany is.
Then you have Germany's long term population decline, despite the refugee influx. That means Germany's influence in the Parliament and everywhere else will get weaker over time, they are mainly losing that influence to France and the UK who have growing populations
>>56698380
Our biggest trading partners are our neighboring countries. So from our perspective it made sense. We keep our trade, get rid of southern competition and we get a buffer from leeches and criminals.
>>56690896
>USA literally can't handle this endless military growth and invasion after invasion just to keep the whole thing rolling
>LOL OMG WUT A DUM RACIST vote Hillary and bomb Moscow
>>56698475
>€3 billion out of the EU's €14.625 billion
This is meant to be trillion not billion
>>56698496
As a slovenian, i kind of resent that. Are you implying that amsterdam has no leeches and criminals ?
>>56697972
Germoney is wise-guy. If f.e. Poland was removed from Schengen zone, it would radically increase cost of transport of goods because trucks would be checked on borders and queues would be much longer. It would generate billions of losses a year. Hunderds of thousands of Polish companies are subcontractors for German companies, moreover Germans installed here a lot of their factories. They would be losing heavy money if your idea came true.
>>56698475
This is why I say integrate them into the system, it kind of throws a wrench into the old alliances and forces belligerents to act nice, it could be a win win for the EU and for Putin/Russia, just imagine the infrastructure projects and China all of a sudden being a EU neighbor.
>>56699338
Median wage in Russia now is 23.000 rubles (300 euro) compared to average wage 30.000 rubles (380 euro).
If EU gave Russians right to live and work here without visa or any permission, EU would be flooded with 20-30 million people in best scenario. It would fuck up the system completely.
Russia can't be a member of EU. It is too big and too poor
>>56699461
Wouldnt the EU rather have russians rather than syrians and afghanies and iranians immigrunts??? And many eu companies would make companies just like they did in poland and romania and etc. besides, the EU needs some new blood, and russian infrastructure jobs connecting the systems with rail and highways would be beneficial for all in the EU, even poles would benefit with hte transit of german products to mother russia
>Poles honestly thinking Russia will invade them when NATO spending gets reduced
>>56699338
Problem with that is all existing members have to agree to take the new member in. They will never let Russia in because it's a terrible idea.
Russia has 140 million people, think Germany + France combined as one. They would have a lot of influence in the new EU.
Furthermore, Russian institutions are weak, there's endemic corruption, there's not the same respect for democratic institutions. Its sheer size and lack of wealth means that Russia would qualify for an insane amount of EU projects. It would be Poland on super-steroids.
Russia would have simultaneously a lot more influence than any other country AND they'd have most of the EU budget going directly into Russia, a huge subsidy.
Then you have the immigration, which would be fucking insane. Poland was a shock and Russia is much larger in population
So yeah, you're asking the EU member states to bend over a barrel and spread super wide.
The current EU is quite nicely balanced.
DE 80m - declining
FR 65m - increasing
UK 64m - increasing
IT 60m - stagnating
ES 47m - stagnating
PL 38m - declining
... etc
>>56699461
And chinese products transiting through russia on the new trans siberian railway to europe would open many opportunities
>>56691759
Reads like a comment on a porn video.
>>56699781
>PL 38m - declining
Rather stagnating thanks to massive influx.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_population_growth_rate
http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php/File:Total_number_of_first_residence_permits_issued_by_reason,_in_2014_V1.png
>>56699993
Apologies I forgot about the effect of Ukraine of Poland. It makes sense, I can imagine they're all going there.
>>56700054
There is also second reason: character of job-migration. It is mostly rotational.
Here you have numbers f.e. for 2013
http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php/File:Immigration_by_citizenship,_2013_YB15.png
131.000 Poles came back from West to Poland with earned money and at the same time around 150.000 emigrated to West for money.
So our "emigrants" are usually not permanent, but rotational
Ladies and gentlemen, let me present to you
>>56699781
The EU system needs to get tamed as far as how subsidies are allocated and immigration policies need to be updated, that has already been proven with current events, BUT the EU gains customers, super steroids projects, the ability to trade directly with China and the oil and natural resources of the largest country in the WORLD!
>>56700275
The 45th President of the United States of America
>>56700263
Yes I knew about that. I'm in London, I know Poles who've gone back to Poland although many do end up staying here to start a family or career, many go back home. Same applies to other EU immigrants.
However you have a low birth rate combined with this net emigration of Poles, so I would expect a slow decline if not for high immigration
>>56700342
http://i.4cdn.org/wsg/1458608098017.webm
Mrs. Hillary Diane Rodham Clinton
>>56700386
You were not far away from truth. It is a stagnation that has features of decline. The government is going to pay now 120 euro of benefit for a child to persuade Poles to procreate, but i don't think that it will work. I think that immigration from Ukraine is our main remedy for population decline.
>>56699781
And yet the EU wants to let Turkey in, amazing, but i can understand, the EU feels they can "control" them
>>56700331
>The EU system needs to get tamed as far as how subsidies are allocated
This would also slow the development of the existing poorer parts of the EU. Remember this isn't charity, it's to achieve a single market of relatively wealthy countries where consumers can afford to buy shit from the richer countries
>BUT the EU gains customers, super steroids projects, the ability to trade directly with China and the oil and natural resources of the largest country in the WORLD!
We can already trade with China. We gain resources, ok, but the price we'd be paying is huge. The whole character of the EU would change too. A common thing in the current EU is that all the countries are relatively keen on western liberal democracy.
No one's short of resources. If we can't buy from Russia we can buy from another supplier. Most of Europe doesn't even need Russian energy, only some of the eastern countries.
>>56700444
>And yet the EU wants to let Turkey in
Nope, Turkey will never be let in. The membership talks are all theatre.
You now Greece and Cyprus are in the EU right? That should make it obvious to you it will never ever happen.
Furthermore, it should be obvious that the big European powers will never accept another large country in the EU, as it dilutes their power in a big way
>>56692376
>>56691875
>>56691702
>>56691451
>>56692657
>>56692812
>>56692812
>>56693054
>>56693255
>>56693363
>>56693612
>>56693730
>>56694531
>>56694933
>>56695240
>>56695363
>>56695693
>>56695841
>this pro nato slovakian cuck again
How is he still posting here ?
>>56693133
>letting traitors alive
You need to be mentally unstable to do such a moronic thing
I don't agree with disbanding NATO or anything like that.
But I would like to set a penalty/tax/payment giving to NATO by countries who do not adhere to the 2% of GDP contribution.
>>56690896
North America is already crumbling from the inside. The states are not even really a superpower anymore as they are no longerrors taken seriously. I mean cmon who is scared of some nigger born in Kenya or Hillary Clinton. At least trump won't be bowing to chinks or sucking off pedophile Muslim skeiks. We may have elected that faggot trudeau but I'm not sure America could survive 4 more years of the Benghazi liar.
>>56703995
North American Federation when?
Fuck everyone south of Mexico tho
>Yanks unironically want to reduce the DOminance they have over the west through NATO
weeeeeeeeew.
>>56692812
there is no point Slovakia.
>>56694997
>killing enemys is bad
fuck off.
>>56695647
is Hydrogen highly explosive in a country now full of millions MENA refugees....
>>56695749
not to mention our millitary makes huge advances in many areas of science that could never hope of receiving funding otherwise.
>>56696435
>Attacking on american soil
LOL. We are armed to the teeth here that even civilians could fuck up any body.
>all the europoors ITT getting butthurt they might have to take out some money from those comfy social programs and put it into military instead
fuck you guys, take care of yourselves.
now you can't bitch about us being the world's police anymore
>>56705412
are you retarded? hes clearly talking about turkey attacking greece.
>>56705741
then we lose a shit ton of global sway and influence, billions of dollars worth of security contracting will lost. Almost everything the U.S millitray uses is manufactured in the united states.
>>56691759
Under-rated comment desu.
>>56693224
Jesus Christ I bet you started chanting USA! USA ! USA! after you finished typing this
>>56690896
hes not wrong.
Do people actually think the US pulling out of NATO will hurt the US in regards to it being a global super power? There is no alternative nation on the planet that can fill in the role the US currently has. If the US chooses to become isolationist, China's economy would collapse, all former eastern block countries would be fucked by russia, all the wellfare states would have their economy collapse because they would need to pay for their own defense and the US may have a small downturn in the economy but it wont be a big deal because the government has essentially guaranteed that we would never face famine.
I actually want to see it happen. I would be very happy if I could read the news and read about starving Europeans and chinese
>>56704178
>South of Mexico
How about no. Bring in everybody except Mexico
>>56690896
thank you based trump, now we punish traitors and infidels
>>56699461
but the warsaw principality can be a member of russia - it is small and qt
>>56691451
Sounds good to me.
>>56709158
How bad would it be if we just split the world three ways, Russia gets Europe, US gets America, China gets Asia
