Is it possible to actually reform Islam into something compatible with western values?
>>51832653
Nope. Many have tried and many do still try today like Ali A. Rizvi and Maajid Nawaz
>>51832653
>reform Islam
Bigot detected
Look at Iran in the 1950s, before strategic US intervention.
>>51832653
its impossible
they DID think that western value is degenerate, and islam is the light that will show western people from the darkness of western value.
thats the most moderate and peaceful (no memes) islam for you
Does tony think he has a respectable platform for people to actually take his advice?
>>51832851
You shut your fucking mouth about based Tone.
>>51832851
why do you did this to him
>>51832653
I was browsing the islam subreddit the other day for shits and giggles and one of the most voted posts was "Why islam doesn't need a reformation".
So it looks unlikely to happen, sadly.
>>51832653
why do you even think Islam needs to be compatible with western values?
god damn hypocrites and your hubris
When an organizm or an institution face destruction it either evolves or gets destroyed. It's your job to make them face this choice.
>>51833043
Because it's our world and if you expect us to allow you savages to live in it for very much longer you better get your shit together.
>>51832851
Leave Tony alone! He just wanted to help!
>>51833148
based jewish wisdom
>>51832653
Did he ever shirtfront Putin like he promised?
>>51833043
We cant have Islam in the West if our values arent compatible.
>>51832653
fucking rayciss
>>51832653
You're 200 years to late, Modernism and Pan-Islamism are dead and Wahhabism is mainstream.
>>51833043
Ataturk was a dumbass for trying to make Turkey a modern european country.
>>51833148
wanna talk about how you cut up babies dicks by the way?
>>51832653
Christianity reformed because Christianity was introduced/forced upon an entirely different race of people than the people who founded the religion and then these people (white Europeans) eventually became the majority of Christians.
That's the only reason that Christianity reformed. Christianity was an alien presence within these white cultures and the whites reshaped Christianity to better fit with their racial temperament, but Islam was made by Arabs, it's dominated by Arabs, and non-Arab Muslims aren't even taken very seriously.
Religions are created and shaped by the dominant race that follows it, so Islam won't change unless Arabs are wiped out and non-Arabs become the face of Islam.
>>51833452
Ask your questions, celtibery tribesman.
>>51833531
Shia Islam is basically a persian Islam and it's still shit. Better than Sunni but still shit nontheless.
Turkic muslims seem to be the only ones that have their shit together, maybe because they are so Russianized.
>>51833703
t. Moortugal
>>51833703
In the Pew Forum surveys they still do say they like Sharia a lot. Azerbaijan allegedly has the most secular Muslims of any Muslim majority country
>>51833703
How is shia better than suni? Sunis are fighting to establish their theocratic goverment right now. Shias already did it 36 years ago.
Is it possible to actually reform Christianity into something compatible with western values?
>>51833983
yes it happened during the reformation. Also western values are based off christian values.
>>51833817
Because of Wahhabism.
>>51834213
How is it different from the islamic revolution?
>>51832653
The Ottoman actually did this
Butt the the perfide albion supported a radical kind of islam and heped to create the salafism we have today.
iran and afghanistan were pretty western before islamic revolutions and commies and stuff
>>51833204
He was basically the only western leader who DIDN'T.
>>51834066
Wrong on both counts.
The reformation was a period that saw religious extremists gain power and attack the rationality of the Church.
Western values are based off Enlightenment thinking, which rejects all religion.
>>51832653
Well, the British managed to destroy Christianity with their horrid Anglicanism, so I'm sure they can ruin Islam as well.
>>51833531
>forced upon an entirely different race of peopl
>white cultures
>racial temperament
>non-Arab Muslims aren't even taken very seriously.
>>51834578
all western notions of human rights are based off christian values. That is why islamic societies are fundamentally different to ours.
Christianity spawned the enlightenment. Read a book.
>>51834738
>all western notions of human rights are based off christian values
No. It's not like Christianity invented them. Humanism was adopted by Renaissance thinkers from pre-Christian Greek thinking.
>Christianity spawned the enlightenment.
Rejecting Christianity spawned the enlightenment.
>>51835174
I tip my fedora to you, esteemed gentlement.
>>51832653
If you can find some rich people that would benefit from it, sure. Right now, they don't.
>>51835174
>It's not like Christianity invented them
Yes but they're the ones we adopted. Are you actually trying to say that all Western countries would be where they were today without christianity? With the renaissance, enlightenment etc. and wars? Christianity reformed to the point where we have separation of church and state but retained Christian societal values and holidays. We still have hang ups about gay marriage etc. which is retained from the church.
The original point of the thread was "to actually reform Islam into something compatible with western values?" and no it's not, because our societies were formed completely differently. Islam has not gone through a similar "reformation" or process to ours, except in areas where it has mixed with different religions i.e. Buddhism in south east asia.
>Christianity spawned the enlightenment.
>Rejecting Christianity spawned the enlightenment.
that was the point I was making
It can't happen from without; it must be an internal reformation. There is a tiny minority of actual moderates who want to reform Islam from the ground up along the lines of Western Liberalism, but the opposition to them from the mainstream (the people who are only called "moderate" because they don't want to kill you) is intense. I don't see it happening in my lifetime, but it's not impossible.
>>51835829
>Are you actually trying to say that all Western countries would be where they were today without christianity?
That's more than I'm trying to say. I'm saying that Christianity is not directly responsible for secular values.
>retained Christian societal values
Can you be specific? We haven't really retained any values unique to Christendom.
>>51832817
So, a modernized capital with cultural Muslims who didn't actually practice their religion and 90% of the country resembling the Middle Ages with burkas and honor killings.
we must enforce mutliculturalism and agnosticism among muslims if we're to live beside them
simple as that, why the fuck do you think jews promoted the same thing among protestants
>>51835829
>Christianity reformed to the point where we have separation of church and state but retained Christian societal values and holidays. We still have hang ups about gay marriage etc. which is retained from the church
It's not that the Christian religion "reformed", it's more that it's inherently more compatible with democracy and secularism because a core Christian doctrine is the existence of free will - man may freely accept or reject salvation. Islam has no such concept; it literally means "submission" and its core doctrine is basically "Do whatever the Koran says or we'll kill you."
>>51833531
In that case europeans should purge all foreign ideas and influence and return to tribal hunter-gatherer system of living in the forest since christianity being introduced to the continent was just a byproduct of roman influence.
>>51835174
>Rejecting Christianity spawned the enlightenment
There were fedoras and communists who came along during the Enlightenment, but they mostly lost to more moderate views. In fact, the Reign of Terror in France produced a major backlash against these ideologies - eventually Napoleon was saying that religion was good stuff for keeping the people quiet (after having been an edgy fedora during the Revolution).
In fact the 19th century as a whole brought about a resurgence of religion in Europe due to revulsion at the excesses of the French Revolution.
It's called ijtihad
I'll let you take a guess at:
>which country is strictly against it
>which type of people are extremely against it
>which sect of Islam these people follow
>>51833531
>That's the only reason that Christianity reformed. Christianity was an alien presence within these white cultures and the whites reshaped Christianity to better fit with their racial temperament, but Islam was made by Arabs, it's dominated by Arabs, and non-Arab Muslims aren't even taken very seriously
I would dispute that because you also have the Maghreb countries (not Arab), Afghanistan, Pakistan (not Arab), Turkey (not Arab) and Indonesia none of which are what anyone would consider first world democracies.
>>51833531
>That's the only reason that Christianity reformed. Christianity was an alien presence within these white cultures and the whites reshaped Christianity to better fit with their racial temperament, but Islam was made by Arabs, it's dominated by Arabs, and non-Arab Muslims aren't even taken very seriously.
The way that Christianity spread was completely unlike how Islam spread. It started as a minority cult among some of the lower classes in the Roman Empire and spread from there. Christian doctrines were very hazy and undefined at this time and there was widespread dispute over them. Classical Greek/Roman doctrines had a large part in shaping Christian beliefs since that's simply what every educated person in the Roman Empire was familiar with. So to make it short, the Church was sort of ad-libbing and making up doctrine as they went along.
Islam was spread via war and conquest, there was very little of any theological debate or discussion because it just preached that the Koran was the unvarnished truth and Muhammed was its messenger.
>>51834395
>>51833817
Shiism is no better than Wahabism except in the sense that its smaller number of followers gives it less potential reach.
>>51836153
>Humans are able to construct morality out of nothing. Ethics and morality are completely obvious and self evident.
Concepts of morality have changed hugely across time. Even if you’re not a judo-christian believer you live in the west in the wake of the tradition.
>We haven't really retained any values unique to Christendom.
Sanctity of life.
>>51832653
>reformation
Um no, when Luther tried that he only made Christianity worse.
>>51836819
So your saying that Christianity never spread by means of violence and intimidation? Well, guess history was wrong again it seems.
>>51836551
The problem with Indonesia is not islam
It would be possible if the West would stop buying oil from those goddamn Saudis and selling them weapons
You can't fight ISIS then make the Saudis stronger kek
>>51837010
please tell me what the problem is with indonesia then, I'm dying to know
>>51837001
In some cases, such as Charlemagne's conversion of the Saxons, yes however most of the time pagans converted for economic and political motivation; the Roman Empire and Christianity were associated with civilization and culture.
For example, the Grand Duke Vladimir in the 10th century was almost tempted to adopt Islam, but went with Christianity since it did not forbid alcohol (and what is a Russian without hooch?). Also the idea of trade and political ties with Constantinople was too good to pass up.
>>51836551
Agree, i learnt the history of Islamic spread in Indonesia and it was nice and peaceful, those who brought Islam here were usually merchants, so no siege or war involving dakwah at all.
>>51837309
IIRC Java and Sumatra were Buddhist-dominated prior to Islam.
>>51837308
Well I'm just happy the shit religion is as good as dead here now, life was shitty and backwards enough under its wing.
>>51837309
The conversion of the Turks was also pretty much nonviolent. Originally during the Arab conquests, they reached Transoxiana and attempted to convert the locals by the sword, however were told to bug off. Later on, Persian missionaries converted them peacefully. Also factoring in that Turks had much closer cultural ties to Persia than the completely alien Arabs.
>>51832653
What western values are incompatible with Islam, exactly?
I'm not talking about african/middleeastern muslims, I'm talking about Islam.
>>51837569
Secularism and if you say secularism is Islamic then practically all Islamic nations on the earth have it wrong.
>>51837617
>secularism
Either secularism is incompatible with christianity or it's not.
If it is (and that's 100% true in the case of catholicism), then we'd have the same problem with a european islam as with a european christianity.
If it's not, I don't see how it is also incompatible with all forms of Islam.
I think the issue is with the people (as in the nations, the races, the whatever you want to call them), not with the religion.
>>51837617
Also, while I can conceive that europe might be de facto secular towards traditional religions it's A) not de iure in several countries (state chruches and all of that) and B) still actually not against modern religious beliefs like progressivism.
>>51832653
islam is constantly reforming itself so it constantly stays the same
>>51832653
I have a great idea
What if we reform the west to be compatible with Islam values
>>51836296
This is false on several points.
First of all, free will isn't a doctrine of all christian branches, calvinism doesn't include it for example. And the idea of secularism or freedom to err doesn't exist in catholicism either and just roam around catholic forums to see how much they're in favor of democracy.
As a second points, plenty of islamic societies were far more gentle towards christian/jewish inhabitants than the opposite. See the federal religious system of the ottoman empire for example.
>>51837753
May be but if so Christians have adopted and muslim countries haven't, I don't know one majority muslim country which is truly secular. Even Turkey went to shit in this regard.
Maybe they'll change, but holy shit man I'd rather not be a testing ground on which that transition happens they can experiment in their sandpit not here.
>>51837936
>And the idea of secularism or freedom to err doesn't exist in catholicism either and just roam around catholic forums to see how much they're in favor of democracy
Catholic countries are mostly Third World shitholes though - in fact Japan is the only developed First World country I can think of that isn't majority Protestant (I don't count France since they've been anti-clerical Freemasons since 1789).
>>51832653
the only way to reform Islam is with nukes
>>51837999
Tunisia
Azerbaijan
England
>>51832653
islam need to be reformed in to ashes
>>51837999
>but holy shit man I'd rather not be a testing ground on which that transition happens they can experiment in their sandpit not here.
I want foreign muslims in europe as much as I want shit on my pasta.
I was only talking about a theoretical european muslim population (who are not turkish rapebabies).
>>51837936
>As a second points, plenty of islamic societies were far more gentle towards christian/jewish inhabitants than the opposite. See the federal religious system of the ottoman empire for example.
The Ottomans in fact didn't allow Jews in their territory, other than that their religious policy was fairly enlightened for the time and much more so than many European countries.
>>51832653
Yes but it likely requires Saudi Arabia to be destroyed. They practice that extreme Wahhabi Islam and they send clerics out to the other more moderate countries or countries in strife (Syria, Afghanistan) to influence and convert the young people. They pull the strings from the shadows while pretending to be an ally of the west. Their oil money helps that along.
Destroying Saudi Arabia may not even be enough now, it depends on how well extreme Islam has proliferated other countries. If it has taken hold in many nations an attack on Saudi Arabia will only serve to further enrage Muslims and drive them further into their religious extremes. We're fucked. Should have just attack Saudi Arabia right after 9/11 and gotten it over with.
>>51838048
>in fact Japan is the only developed First World country I can think of that isn't majority Protestan
hey!
Even setting that aside there's still the issue of calvinism and that the ottoman empire was pretty chill with having orthodox people in it who followed mostly their own rules.
>>51838062
>England
Oh really? With its police tolerating all those Sharia zones and courts? Get real.
>>51838118
>The Ottomans in fact didn't allow Jews in their territor
I was referring to al-andalus in that bit.
If European Muslims branch off and create their own thing, maybe
>>51832653
It already had a reformation in the last 200 years, but a backwards one mind you
>>51838189
Italy has mega-corruption problems and ofc everything south of Rome is nigger-tier. While not Third World by any stretch, it's not run nearly as well or efficiently as the Netherlands or Finland.
>>51838048
>in fact Japan is the only developed First World country I can think of that isn't majority Protestant
Austria and Belgium are Catholic. Other than them, most Catholic countries are pretty shitty.
>>51838141
>Yes but it likely requires Saudi Arabia to be destroyed.
Ditto Iran.
>>51837807
>islam is constantly reforming itself so it constantly stays the same
Ah, I see how that works now.
>>51838310
>Italy has mega-corruption problems
Not really. The stats you have are about perception of corruption, not corruption itself. When it comes to efficiency, you're right.
>>51838368
Actually all the good parts of Germany are Catholic while the Protestant areas are nigger-level.
>>51838458
>endemic mafia
>not mega-corruption
>>51838433
but it realy is that way
each few decades there is a new movement that declares it is about reforming all of islam, ecah time the ''reform'' they advocate is a more radical return to ''real islam'' its been going on that way for centuries, almost every larger political or military movement in the muslim world after the first expansions, was about muslims deciding to teach other muslims what islam realy is, and purging all the wrong muslims to make way for the real muslims and so on and on
check out the history of any muslim nation its almost universal, most muslim countries were actualy founded that way etc...
yep
tatar muslims are completely meek because russians pretty much forced them to reform.
>>51838590
It's the other way around, actually. Lutheran efficiency my nigger. Get closer to God by working your craft, etc. Part of why the Nordics are so rich and prosperous.
>>51838414
>Ditto Iran.
Actually no, strangely. Iran is kind of the oddball out in the middle east, with its large population of Shia Muslims. It has largely resisted influence from Saudi Arabia and if we weren't still tense about deposing of Reza Shah and the embassy thing they might almost be considered a friend. ISIS and other extremist groups aren't too active in Iran to my knowledge and the general anti-western sentiment over there is starting to relax.
>>51832817
It was fine up until the Iranian revolution in the 70s.
>>51838595
The mafia has become more like the yakuza, in the civilized parts of the state it doesn't corrupt as much as straight up buys stuff.
Also, you're never going to see corruption unless you live in Naples or you're a high ranking official. It's not like the soviet union where you had to give money to do shit that would otherwise requires endless burocratic processing.
>>51838654
>>51838590
That's an unfair comparison because most of the Protestant regions in Germany were ruined by communism and back before 1945, they encompassed the Prussian heartland which is where all the stereotypes of Germans being humorless martial-minded robots came from. Catholic Germans used to be seen as just jolly beer-swilling guys in liederhosen.
>>51837936
>islamic societies were far more gentle towards christian/jewish inhabitants than the opposite. See the federal religious system of the ottoman empire for example.
Does that include the invasion, murder of civilians and burning down of cities and christian churches? Balkans were particularly hard hit. Also the Ottomans committed 3 genocides against Christians in the 20th century they won't admit to.
>>51838771
>Does that include the invasion, murder of civilians and burning down of cities and christian churches?
Yes, it's included.
>Also the Ottomans committed 3 genocides against Christians in the 20th century they won't admit to.
The ottomans can't admit to much anymore.
A roof over your head, a decent job and money in your pocket beats every religion including islam.
t. Arbeit macht wirklich frei Achmed
Retard protestants think they are relevant lel. Reminder that Swedes were living in mudhuts until the middle of the 20th century.
>>51838808
Well, then fuck Iran too I guess. I'll leave that decision to someone more informed than me.
>>51838829
the islamic republic of turkey then
>>51838654
Yes, the nordics. Famous for raping and pillaging Catholic societies in the UK. That is their cultural claim to fame. Congratulations.
>>51838808
Forgot >>51836213
Iran really wasn't a civilized or Westernized country <1979 at all except in a few urban areas. The Shah had to use his police force (the Savak) to keep the lid on the durka-durkas.
>>51836213
>t. Levi Goldstein
>>51838048
ireland you fucking retard
>>51838975
t. Saeed Ali
Why don't you go back to Iran?
>>51838946
Are you drunk? That was over a thousand years ago, long before the modern nordics were formed.
>>51838226
>sharia courts
kek they are just independent civil courts run by imams, they are non-legally binding and are there to sort out family disputes between pakis
>sharia zones
meme, guy in pic related is in jail for it
>>51839021
While your apparent master race were living in mudhuts, raping and pillaging everything in sight., We, the pure Catholic Celtic people of old, were spreading civilisation.
>>51832653
>
>
>
>
Tone actually said that.Cripes he earned my respect.
>>51832653
They would literally need a brand new prophet to replace the old one.
Sure. I mean Christianity was once ridiculously backwards, at least as bad as Islam. What brought Europe out of that was economic prosperity which breeds rationalism and secularism. One problem with comparing contemporary Christianity and Islam is that Islam is centered disproportionately in developing countries, and you don't have to be a genius to know that religious fanaticsm and lack of education goes hand in hand. Lack of education is also a direct result of poverty. Basically the poorer a country is the more religious nut jobs it will have. Just look at the wealthier countries with high Muslim populations like Singapore or Bosnia. They clearly don't have the same problems as Pakistan or Iraq.
>>51839165
The Gulf States are some of the richest in the world.
>>51838982
Ireland was a theocratic shithole for most of the 20th century. They became a livable country after joining the EU and younger people turned into raging fedoras.
Eamon De Valera basically condemned the place to decades of living in the Middle Ages by letting the RCC control everything that wasn't nailed down.
>>51839077
>"we"
Nothing like british people existed back then, why are you memeing so hard dumbass?
Also, nordics ended up spreading civilization also, look at finland.
>>51839165
Saudi Arabia has a lot of oil money and practices some of the strictest and most radical forms of Islam though. And they use their money to convert people in poorer countries.
![1442393855060[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/fExZ1eX.jpg "1442393855060[1].jpg")
>>51839126
>"All of those things that Islam has never had — a Reformation, an Enlightenment, a well-developed concept of the separation of church and state — that needs to happen.
>"But we can't do it; Muslims have got to do this for themselves. But we should work with those who are pushing in that direction.
>"All cultures are not equal and, frankly, a culture that believes in decency and tolerance is much to be preferred to one which thinks that you can kill in the name of God, and we've got to be prepared to say that."
RIP in peace
>>51839252
I am a genetic descendant of Saint Columba. My genes are 100% Celtic for thousands of years mate.
>>51832982
What are their arguments?
We need to practice it differently, or just ebil westerners?
>>51833043
Because you either are adapt if you wnat to live in our world or fuck off.
>>51833341
No he was right and that is why turkey is a strong country, but Erdogan fucks it up.
>>51839253
The Saudi royal family are basically just cultural Muslims and don't practice the rules meant for the little people, but they do export terrorism to get it off their own soil (UAR and Qatar are also guilty of this).
>>51832817
Or the western parts of Turkey before Erdogan
>>51839253
>>51839208
Their governments might be, but their people generally aren't. Saudi Arabia also uses religion to control its people, that's just a result of their authoritarian nature. Also Dubai is full of scantily clad white women so it's a good example of my point.
>>51839293
I laughed out loud. Good job being a muh heritage faggot. I'm sure your rich heritage makes up for the fact that you're a neet loser who spends his days on a nepalese basketweaving forum.
>>51839279
>All of those things that Islam has never had — a Reformation, an Enlightenment, a well-developed concept of the separation of church and state — that needs to happen
I kind of liken it to Russia, which although a Christian nation, didn't have the Renaissance or Reformation so they never really left the Middle Ages.
>>51839208
But what happens when the oil runs out?
Hmm?
>>51839464
Communism toned down religion in Russia.
It's kind of funny how in the age of technology Islam still manages to have a lot of influence and rope in the followers. It is arguably the most successful of the three major fertile crescent religions.
Look at Christianity now, young people give no shits, most of the people you see are older and if there are any kids there their parents dragged them. No kid wants to go to church when they could be playing xbox or PS4. Many people only go to Church for Easter and Christmas and while many people will say they are Christians a lot aren't very devout. Christianity is losing its grip.
Judaism holds a grip on the Jewish community but isn't really raking in new followers. Judaism may be on the decline too but slower than Christianity.
Islam seems to be picking up pace, it's raking in new followers and spreading. The younger generation is eating it up in spite of all the distractions these days that should be keeping them out of Mosque. Why is it so successful where the others weren't?
>>51839444
Keep laughing. I hope you realise that the reason that laughter is so loud is not because your are a loud laugher, but because my god and I are laughing at you.
I know my heritage well. I have traced by family name back to time times of St. Columba.
You have made a grave mistake by crossing someone with the devout belief in the holy trinity running through their blood. Repent or face the wrath of my god.
>>51832653
Fethullah Gülen preaches a modernization of islam, as well as the compatibility of islam with a secular state.
Not saying his ideas are perfect but they're at least a start
>>51839564
>most of the people you see
in church
>are older
I should really proofread before I post.
>>51839584
He gets shit on by Erdogan heavily though.
>>51839564
There's a reason for that - Islam hasn't whored itself to SJW/multicult garbage. The reason you see churches with nothing but elderly people in the pews - most of the time it's because they promote leftist ideologies rather than spirituality.
Baptist fundie churches, Mormon, and Muslim religion services are all young people for the most part. The mainline Proddy churches, all ultra-left SJW, are empty except for a couple of 80 year olds.
>>51839703
Erdogan is a pretty fundamentalist muslim
>>51839721
That doesn't make any sense. Young people are generally more liberal and sjw-y than older people. Wouldn't that mean that more liberal churches would attract more young people?
>>51835829
Nigga! Alfonso X started translating classic texts from greece and rome and other muslim works as the reconquista moved south in spain. Muslims preserved works to be discovered in europe during the renaissance and enlightenment, that they had been implementing for centuries keeping their people well ahead of dark age europe. Ie you owe your christian europe's success to muslims. You fucking idiot.
What the fuck I keep reading Tony Abbott being the most based politician in existance in news and when I hear australians speak about him they shit on him like he was some wimp who can't do anything right
EXPLAIN
>>51839721
That doesn't really make sense though.
First of all, aren't older people, generally speaking, more conservative, and younger people more liberal.
And, wouldn't Churches that appeal to left-wing ideals be more popular as the leftist moving is gaining momentum? If Churches exist to preach ultra-SJW ideals they should be packed with young SJWs and hipsters that'd be eating that shit up. They aren't.
I think the issues is they ARE preaching spirituality and nobody cares. Right-wing fundie churches may be more popular because they preach politics instead of spirituality.
>>51839959
Is it possible to be based and incompetent at the same time...?
>>51839838
You have a little misunderstanding of how things work. Religious extremism (in fact extreme ideologies of any stripe) generally is the provenance of angsty youths who are still trying to "find" themselves and looking for something to believe in or belong to. Most of the durka-durka radical Muslims are young while the older generation is more moderate. The Iranian Revolution in 79, that was all spearheaded by edgy kids who thought living in the Middle Ages would be cool and badass.
Liberal churches are nothing but old people because they're past caring what the guy in the pew is saying. Church attendance is mostly just something they do to get out of the house.
>>51839838
>Young people are generally more liberal and sjw-y than older people
My grandparents are in their 80s and if you had to ask who has their mouth on Obama's nuts more, them or me, I can guarantee you it sure isn't me.
>>51832653
Of course not.
Democracy is the epithome of relativism, the denial of everything absolute. Democracy does not know Truth, she lets the majority decide on what is Truth.
Those who believe in Truth, do not deliver her to the quantitative majority of a vote. Democracy has a worldly character, and is inherently hostile towards any sacral community.
Truth has a sacral character, to the muslim, Islam is Truth.
Given that Islam is both a religion and a political system, represented as the Truth, it is completely incompatible in every essence with democratic principles. Truth (for a muslim: Islam) cannot be reformed.
I've cited Nikolaj Berdyaev's analysis of democracy here, but he is right.
>>51838671
>It was fine
No it wasn't.
>>51840223
And off the record, they do attend an Evangelical Lutheran Church that's nothing but hard-left SJW bullshit and most of the congregation there are closer to their age than mine.
>>51840029
>Liberal churches are nothing but old people because they're past caring what the guy in the pew is saying.
Guy in the pulpit is saying.
>>51840238
As I said, Christianity teaches as a core doctrine that man has the freedom to accept or reject salvation. Islam says "Obey us or else" and "The Koran is the perfect, 100% true word of Allah. Not up for questioning or debate."
>>51840343
Define "hard-left SJW bullshit" for me because I have a really hard time believing that a church would literally preach tumblr tier content.
If you think a priest/pastor telling the people something like "be kind to your neighbor," "everyone has a place in God's kingdom," or something to that effect is SJW bullshit you need to seriously think about the quality of your morals and values.
>>51832653
Convert them to Christianity
>>51840608
>Define "hard-left SJW bullshit" for me because I have a really hard time believing that a church would literally preach tumblr tier content.
You clearly haven't gotten out enough.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ordination_of_LGBT_Christian_clergy
Look here, it's almost mainline Protestant churches doing this shit.
Also my uncle is a Lutheran "minister" who on his FB page openly calls people who believe in God stupid and he's swallowed so much Obama jizz that I'm surprised he hasn't choked on it.
>>51840608
Well, that church Obama attended for 20 years with a minister who spent every sermon attacking white people was United Church of Christ which if you dug into it, is a Marxist organization posing as a church.
>>51840832
http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/5862/united-church-of-christ
"Educational and Christian institutions such as the United Church of Christ, entertain Marxist Ideologies, "Apartheid Week" programs, boycott, divestment and sanctions proposals and Islamic student advocacy organizations as "investments in free speech" rather than as a chapter in a deadly drama of fraud."
>>51833531
>Christianity reformed
No it didn't. The protestant revolt is the source of all christian insanity.
>>51840976
I don't know any fundie Baptists that cut off women's clitorises or fly airplanes into buildings. If you can name any such examples, I'd like to know of them.
>>51837308
True, also most Germanic tribes except the Franks and the Anglo-Saxons already adopted Arian Christianity a century before the fall of the Western Roman Empire.
>>51833166
underrated post
>>51841018
Catholics did plenty of nasty shit back in the days, don't even start kiddo
>>51839914
Muslims never reached England and France in the dark ages, what about there advancements?
>>51841143
Why do you think Sweden divorced Rome in 1527? :^)
>>51840976
> protestant
> bad
Pick one and only one.
>>51836819
>the Church was sort of ad-libbing and making up doctrine as they went along
Absolutely not.
>there was very little of any theological debate or discussion because it just preached that the Koran was the unvarnished truth
Are you trolling or really fucking uneducated? There's massive debate over which verses abrogate which other verses, which haddith are true and which are false, who succeeds Muhammad (sunni v shia), etc. Muhammadanism is one huge contradictory mess.
>>51841209
>>51832653
Islam is a load of bollox, what's there to reform other than throwing it out?
>>51841261
Baby steps towards conversion bud ;^)
>>51841261
>>51840608 wanted evidence of churches shilling SJW ideologies. There you go. :^)
>>51839293
hi columba sounds dumb, he is colm cille
grma
>>51841209
>protestants not ruining everything
>>51841452
As I said, it is the mainline Protestant churches that do things like ordain transgender ministers and have "Hug a Muslim" week.
>>51841452
>Protestants having the largest empire the world.
The hate on protestants is ridiculous.
>>51839021
You did the same here, targetting monasteries. We were already civilized for half a millenium when your filthy lot came to rape, murder and loot our advanced, catholic Celto-Germanic society.
>>51841811
>Protestants enslaving and ransacking the world.
Yep
>>51841898
>literally catholic dindunuffin
Nigga please. PLEASE. You're an embarrassment.
Hey, I did say that most all First World countries other than Japan are majority Protestant.
>>51840029
Pretty much. If you have some fundie preacher saying that gays are all heading to Hell, the edgy 20-something /pol/ crowd is all going to be like "Wow cool. Death to fags!"
>>51841145
Aside from the magna carta y'all mother fuckers didn't accomplish shit until social contract theory. Which is only adjacently related. But, those texts translates in spain moved throughout europe. Odds are with out those texts coming out of spain you anglos wouldn't have come up with those developments.
>>51841898
That empire made your country a possibility you mong.
>>51842711
That was actually French disdain for your empire that made 'Murica possible. You would have won the revolutionary war otherwise.
>>51842676
The Magna Carta was nothing special either, just a re-affirmation of the traditional European belief in a king having limited power and having to consult with the nobles before doing anything. This goes all the back to ancient Greece and Rome.
>>51842796
Don't forget the Poles. And incompetent German mercenaries helped on Britannia's side.
>>51842814
...and to the Germanic tribes that did not have a king. Or two kings at the same time like the Belgic Eburones. All measures to counter absolute power of monarchs.
>>51842321
Catholics never did no nothing wrongs
>>51838048
France is catholic.
Austria is.
Germany is 50/50
Italy is
Spain is
>just american't things
>mah japanz
Why are weebs mentally ill?
>>51844620
>Spain
>50% unemployment
>First World
>>51841209
>Protestant
>Heretic
>Satanist
>Islamist
>Not a christian
Pick all of them.
>>51846076
>America
>More crime than spain
>Not a war thorn hell hole
>>51832653
>"Western Values"
We're the ones who need a reformation, to do away with all this baggage from the enlightenment
