I don't mean Chinese history as in the history of China, but history in China.
They take history so seriously in China, however you know almost every single fact from modern day Chinese historians is in some way affected by complete fabrications and presumptions. Everything they learn has to align politically with their political agenda. Even compared to Japan and Korea, at least academicians have some basic concept of an independent, objective view of historical facts, on the other hand Chinese academics sponsored by the CCP completely come up with 100% politically-biased information, which they use to brainwash 1.3 billion people to promote the agendas of the CCP and aligning the entire region toward them.
For example, they consider the histories of non-ethnic Chinese minorities as Chinese even when Chinese history is supposed to be purely based on the Han Chinese people. They just use it to lump Tibetans, Uyghurs, Mongolians and Vietnamese as part of the Chinese.
Use your discretion and never trust Chinese historians or use Chinese sources.
>>51724554
If only there was a board to discuss history OP..
m8 tibet is china
>>51724554
Because the Chinese got fucking raped by the Manchurians.
History has always been in the realm of politics in China since the age of the Records of Grand Historian. It's a political tool for rulers to prove their legitimacy.
Because they're communist fucking pricks who are incapable of having independent thought. They're all a bunch of brainwashed imbeciles who never question Big Brother. Absolutely hilarious how modern Chinese believe that Okinawa was once a part of China.
>>51725074
How long do you plan on staying in Japan, Chang?
>>51725127
This. These people do not deeserve any pity or compassion, they're pathetically submissive and feeble, just beyond words. Mao for example, are responsible for so many deaths of their families and friends and they glorify him like he's a God. Just think about any of that shit happening in Europe, it would never fly. I lack the words for just how insane these people are. With many exceptions from what I just said of course, but the bottom line still remains.
>>51725389
what bottom line
they don't worship mao, it's not the 1970s
>>51725446
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/china/10537651/In-China-Chairman-Mao-still-bigger-than-Jesus.html
>>51724554
Commies, that's why
China never did abandon Confucianism is why.
>>51724554
>China is the only nation guilty of historical revisionism
Hahaha no. Every country reinterprets facts, of course--the extermination of the Native Americans is certainly seen in a much less positive light than it used to be. Changing the facts happens a hell of a lot too. Herodotus, the father of modern history, writes about giants and giant ants in his writings. The Persian host was greatly overstated in accounts of Thermopylae. We have trouble figuring out whether Roman Emperors such as Caligula and Nero were actually mad megalomaniacs, crazy or just people maligned by history because Roman historians basically would publish whatever smut they could find off the street about people they liked. The early christians butchered accounts on Jesus. Whether you believe in the holocaust or don't believe in it, both ways there has been some active rewriting of the facts. There will always be state, individual and academic actors seeking to alter what we had previously accepted as historical fact and how we interpret them. China is hardly the only one sitting on fanfiction and butchered history.
>>51724554
>Everything they learn has to align politically with their political agenda.
Welcome to communism, where propaganda > truth.
Only an insecure nation full of insecure cunts would do whatever China is pulling right now. If the mainland Chinese retards were genuinely secure and proud of their history they'd confront and acknowledge the bad, and celebrate the good.
I'm ethnic Chinese but not from China, and I hate the mainland gooks. They aren't even culturally complete as Chinese, imo. So much of Chinese culture got wiped out by Mao's cultural revolution and what China has left is a hollow shell of what it once was.
Communists destroyed China.
They are the worst evils.
>Communist
Top kek
>B-b-but mao killed millions
Living expectancy under the communists went from mid 40s to late 70s due to communist healthcare and ending the civil war. Some people who wanted to believe mao killed more people will assume China had world-class cutting edge healthcare equal to the US so they can pretend the difference are extra deaths under mao.
The twisting of facts in history isn't exclusive to chinese. Everyone does it.
>>51724554
>on the other hand Chinese academics sponsored by the CCP completely come up with 100% politically-biased information, which they use to brainwash 1.3 billion people
Funny that an American is mentioning this.
Maybe you are biased your self (of course you are but you are to stupid to check it).
>>51732679
You mean the communists introduced western health care? There's no such thing as 'communist healthcare'.
And the KMT would have introduced it too, but might not have starved so many by fucking up their agriculture so badly, or killed so many people to solidify their rule (though still a lot), or prevented so many intelligent people from getting a proper education.
And what you said can also be said about Korea under Japanese rule. People often like to forget that Korea's population witnessed extreme growth due to the Japanese introducing western medicine.
>>51725389
This is very unbiased and rational.
>
>>51732989
Communist healthcare, as in free state-provided healthcare. You know, the stuff you guys hate because they're so leftist and evil.
As for the KMT, you do realize they were so incompetent they lost the civil war despite being backed by both nazi germany and america? And only facing a horde of uneducated and malnourished chink peasants?
Come to think of it, the overthrow of the KMT in China could be seen as one of the greatest democratic movement in human history, considering how many chink peasants sided with the commies. I always laugh when people pretend taiwan is the "legitimate" government of china.
they kill rare animals, fuck them! :(
>>51733306
KMT also fought the Japanese army while Map stayed dogging wars and hiding like a bitch.
>>51733371
Brusim, brusim skarice :--DDD
>>51733306
>You know, the stuff you guys hate because they're so leftist and evil.
Free government provided healthcare usually suffers from either low quality or long waiting-lists, as in Britain. The Bismarck healthcare model works better imo.
>As for the KMT, you do realize they were so incompetent they lost the civil war despite being backed by both nazi germany and america? And only facing a horde of uneducated and malnourished chink peasants?
That is a very oversimplified view. There were many contributing factors to why they lost, but being backed by America actually meant they were under international pressure to use humane tactics which in the end worked against them more than the American support helped them.
>Come to think of it, the overthrow of the KMT in China could be seen as one of the greatest democratic movement in human history, considering how many chink peasants sided with the commies.
Only the PRC is not democratic at all. Democracy is not beguiling uneducated peasants with false promises to place you in power, it is placing the power in the hands of the people.
How did you get into Hong Kong by the way? Surely you could find a job there that pays more than 五毛?
>>51733546
>but being backed by America actually meant they were under international pressure to use humane tactics
[citation needed]
What do they teach about the history of anime?
>>51733491
Yeah, those evil commies should've just charged the japs with 1/100x the manpower of the KMT armies right after the long march, amirite?
>>51733546
>Free government provided healthcare usually suffers from either low quality or long waiting-lists
Better than no healthcare whatsoever.
>That is a very oversimplified view.
It's also completely accurate. The KMT lost because they're absolute shit at the whole "ruling" thing, and they were extremely unpopular which is why the commies ballooned in size so quickly.
>they were under international pressure to use humane tactics
lol
>Democracy is not beguiling uneducated peasants with false promises to place you in power
lol
lol
>>51724554
Could anybody imagine being Mao Zedong?
Like here's some guy who's really good at convincing people he's a good guy. Kind of like a really good sleazy salesperson.
Then he works his way up through the communist party as his rivals either die fighting the KMT or just get passed over through internal power struggles. His snake oil ass never got hurt because he always knew to be the 3rd best so that when 1 and 2 fight he can move around them.
Then he becomes chairman of the CPC and fucking wrecks the countries economy. He ducking starts a massive famine like millions of people starve and there are no dogs left on the street. Then he destroy's thousands of years of Chinese cultural practice in one Great Leap Forward. The guy is a joke a complete joke.
Look at chinese dynasty maps on wikipedia.
Compare English articles to Chinese ones, and look at the maps.
It's hilarious, the one on the Chinese article always has china as double the size.
Don't forget that Chinese people are taught that China invaded and defeated many European nations.... because they make no distinction between the Mongolian and Chinese empires
>>51733599
Possibly, I just have this from hearsay and earlier discussions on this forum, I admit I don't have a good source.
What is well known however, is that the KMT suffered more from the war with Japan, in which it was reluctantly involved after the Xi'an incident. They also employed the forces of not always trustworthy warlords, and used conscription instead of empty promises to get their cannon fodder.
I can provide citations on these if needed, would take some time to collect them all though.
>>51733772
>Better than no healthcare whatsoever.
Better than Chinese herbal medicine, but the KMT would have introduced western medicine as well.
>The KMT lost because they're absolute shit at the whole "ruling" thing, and they were extremely unpopular which is why the commies ballooned in size so quickly.
They had to implement unpopular economic measures because they were trying to help the country out of a crisis and had to fund their war. If you want to really see if they would have made for competent rulers, just compare the wealth, education and well-being of Taiwan with that of most of mainland. inb4 shanghai universities, take the average levels of both countries and compare those. Due to Gaussian distribution it is logical that mainland should have at least some better universities.
>tfw being a Taiwanese
>being raped by Mainland China
>you don't have ability to defend
>>51734094
It's highly doubtful that the KMT had been able to manage a stable goverment. Communists were too strong to have a serious grip on the population by the KMT.
I think their rule would have lead to a partition of china and to several following conflicts in and around China.
Here in the west we learn only the worst about China just because of the Reason that they are commies. Our history here is the same way propaganda. It's just as naive as people who believe that democracy is a rule of the people.
>>51733612
they teach that british posters are subhuman and should be hanged and that anime is yet another crime Japan is guilty of
>>51725389
>disregarding that people worshipped Lenin and Stalin
Come on, man
>>51734414
I certainly don't believe the commies are purely evil, and the KMT is and was pretty damn far from perfect too. And I also understand that any political system that works or seems to work in a western society may not necessarily work as well in any non-western society.
>It's just as naive as people who believe that democracy is a rule of the people.
It is. That is democracy's definition. I just don't believe a truly functioning democracy exists or is possible in any way, but that doesn't change the meaning of democracy. And say what you want about the government, we may not be really democratic and politicians may not live up to all their promises, but you don't get screwed over by the spoiled kids of party officials here, or need some sick guanxi connections to get any decent position.
>>51734094
lol
>Better than Chinese herbal medicine, but the KMT would have introduced western medicine as well.
So apparently when the commies wipes out old traditions, it's bad. But it's okay for the KMT to do the exact same. Got it.
> If you want to really see if they would have made for competent rulers, just compare the wealth, education and well-being of Taiwan with that of most of mainland.
Oh sure, let's compare the total national gdp of China and Taiwan. Wait, maybe that's not totally fair. Hey, I got it! Let's compare which leader's survival is wholly dependent on foreigners, since modern China first started its whole modernization thing to shake off those foreign powers, that should be the red line right?
You are talking about leaders who are so competent they lost a war against rural peasants, and are now stuck on an island constantly on edge because the former peasants threatened to take their last bit of clay. Maybe you should start over from another angle, sir.
The history I learned is KMT government officials were bribery and military they managed, had bad discipline, that is why CCP supporter amount was increasing.
>>51734523
cute crime though
>>51734606
KMT lost the civil war because they never care of labours
>they still do NOT care labours.
>old habbits die hard
>>51734606
>It is. That is democracy's definition.
Yet nobody sane would consider communism as defined as a perfect utopia in marx's book.
Frankly, the only reason China is a "threat" to the Western world today is because of the commies winning. Just like how Tsarist Russia was weak, and Soviet Union a threat, and modern Russia a shadow of its former self.
>>51734651
>So apparently when the commies wipes out old traditions, it's bad. But it's okay for the KMT to do the exact same. Got it.
Introducing modern medicine =/ destroying everything to do with actual Chinese culture. That's just the commies' view of modernization, you're trying to twist my words.
>Let's compare which leader's survival is wholly dependent on foreigners, since modern China first started its whole modernization thing to shake off those foreign powers, that should be the red line right?
Most of Taiwan's dependence of foreign powers stems from the constant threat of being invaded by the PRC. You're also not reacting in any way to my point, you're just doing some stupid rhetorical dance to avoid admitting life is better on Taiwan than it is in mainland.
>>51734606
>don't get screwed over by the spoiled kids of party officials here,
Realy?
>or need some sick guanxi connections to get any decent position.
There is someone without a serious degree.
At least here our Party-Members create senseless bureaus, only to get their children a job.
Our biggest donater of scholarships are political party organization. Just lick a little CDU-cock and the Theodor-Heuss-Stiftung will grant you one.
Ah cmon lad, you are talking like corruption is non-existend here. We just have a different view on it because media promises us to be the "good" ones.
>>51734810
>only reason China is a "threat" to the Western world today is because of the commies winning
There is no policy based on Communism in these day.
>>51724554
China is a shit-hole, news at 11
>>51734821
>Introducing modern medicine =/ destroying everything to do with actual Chinese culture.
Yes, this. Destroyed so much. Like the terracotta army, or the forbidden palace, or the great wall. All destroyed by those dastardly commie bastards. Meanwhile, there's so much Chinese history preserved in Taiwan, like the Chiang Kai-shek Memorial Hall, or all the Chinese gold they pawned off to fund their corruption.
>Most of Taiwan's dependence of foreign powers stems from the constant threat of being invaded by the PRC.
Yes, and the KMT had never depended on or owed debts to foreign powers when they were still in charge of China. What do you mean where they got all those weapons and money during the civil war??
>>51724554
>imblying politically neutral historian exist
>>51734810
>Frankly, the only reason China is a "threat" to the Western world today is because of the commies winning.
Surely it has nothing to do with the fact that the PRC has standing border disputes with nearly all her neighbors and has been increasingly willing to turn to the threat of force to resolve them in her favor.
Daily Reminder that the KMT formed a Dictatorship until the 90s in Taiwan.
>>51734769
Nobody sane actually cares that much for the lower class, because the part of your population with the highest education is actually by far the most valuable and least replaceable part of your population. Look at the massive brain drain from mainland and the damage it has caused.
>>51734810
>Yet nobody sane would consider communism as defined as a perfect utopia in marx's book.
Just like there is no real democracy on this earth, there is or has been no real communism as Marx imagined it either. It's an idealist's dream, but nothing more than a dream. Ever heard of the quote "A young man who isn’t a socialist hasn’t got a heart; an old man who is a socialist hasn’t got a head."?
>>51734860
Perhaps it is a bit different in Germany then. I know a lot of people with parents at influential positions, and they don't get a lot of stuff directly through their parents' connections. What they do have is a good background to get advice on how to address people to get what you want, and how to behave in certain circles which are still influential at some positions. Dutch society is known to be relatively plain, down to earth and direct though.
And of course corruption isn't non-existant. It just isn't big enough to prevent our countries from constantly improving, or to prevent people with actual talent to prevail over people with only a social circle. This may happen occasionally, but less than anywhere else in the world, which creates an awesome advantage.
>>51735154
KMT is being crticised about that as usual, especially the election is coming
>>51733546
>but being backed by America actually meant they were under international pressure to use humane tactics
Such as blowing up the yellow river dike and killing a million of their own peasants?
The KMT was one of those not-so-rare pro-western goverments who actually deserved to lose, all their incompetence, cruelty and corruption combined.
>>51724554
Chinese nationalists on the paradox forums are kinda funny, always going on about how China produced 5x more grain than Renaissance Europe per capita and how Chinese people enjoyed the best living standards of the world, then the nasty European arrived and ruined everything.
>>51735021
>the difference in the amount of cultural heritage between mainland and Taiwan is due to the KMT
Yeah, of course it has nothing to do with size, population, and most of all historical importance. Right.
>Yes, and the KMT had never depended on or owed debts to foreign powers when they were still in charge of China.
Just like the CPC didn't receive weapons from the Soviets, exactly.
>>51735214
Not caring of labours is the critical trigger.
>more than 50%
Even I couldn't make sure I would stand by Republic of China for suffering low quality life
>>51735345
It is actually true, though.
The Qianlong-era during QIng-Dynasty did produce more grain and had superb living standards compared to the West.
And this was exactly their downfall, as the population grew while agricultural reclaimation was already maxed out.
>>51735282
I'm not saying they deserved to win, but the CPC definitely didn't deserve to either.
>>51735429
Source:
Peter Zarrow: China in War and Revolution 1895-1949
>>51735214
>big enough to prevent our countries from constantly improving
What the hell is this?
Where do we improving?
>and they don't get a lot of stuff directly through their parents' connections
Or are born into this and get payed by actually working people. (Your royalty)
I don't even know on what facts you form your presumptions. They are like completly imagined and without any background like something somebody told you and you simply believe.
How about having a more critical view on our place and position.
>>51735432
Well, CPC successfully mobilized the people. One always forgets that the peasants actually voluntarily fought for the CPC right from the bat, as they were fed up by the corruption of the KMT.
>>51735429
His point stands that this downfall was more due to intrinsic shortcomings of China than due to involvement of western powers.
China was just too sluggish a power to industrialize in time, and "lost" to smaller, more mobile, and more competitive powers.
>>51735432
The CPC formed a stable country that is fast improving and can go its own way.
I don't see much bad about this.
>>51735117
>Surely it has nothing to do with the fact that the PRC has standing border disputes with nearly all her neighbors
Yes, China has so many border disputes with:
Burma? Oh, settled in 1961.
Nepal? Oh, settled in 1963.
North Korea? Oh, settled in 1964.
Mongolia? Oh, settled in 1964.
Pakistan? Oh, settled in 1965.
Afghanistan? Oh, settled in 1965.
Laos? Oh, settled in 1993.
Vietnam? Land borders settled in 1999.
Kazakhstan? Settled in 2002.
Tajikistan? Settled in 2002.
Kyrgyzstan? Settled in 2004.
Russia? Oh, completely settled in 2004.
Of the 23 active disputes when the commies took over in 1949, China settled 17. The remaining disputes are with Bhutan, India over land borders, and the island claims.
American education, ladyboys and gentlebeards.
>>51735429
Some economic history book in English that I read mentioned that the cloth production per capita of coastal China and India around 1790s were higher than West Europe as well, until the Brits invented Spinning Jenny or some sort of machine that lowered their costs, eventually destroyed the Chinese and Indian industry in 1820s and forced the factory workers back to farming. And that's why China and India were seen as agricultural society when most Europeans arrived in the late 19th century.
>>51735550
Actually, the CPC was originally an urban based party consisting primarily of students and intellectuals, while the KMT had a larger widespread appeal, especially among local elites.
It's really Mao in Hunan who actively attempts to organize the peasants, but part of that move was due to the fact that the urban Communists were purged by Chiang Kaishek.
>>51735552
The internal decline would have merely resulted into a new inter-dynastic phase of unrest, until a new dynasty came to power.
But the involvement of the Imperialist powers of the West complicated and retarded that phase extensively, prolonging the suffering of the people and the destruction of the country.
The KMT regime, for once, was a death-birth exactly because she had no power over her own territories due to all the Western concessions, as well as Japanese occupied Manchuria, as well as their supported warlords.
One also shouldnt forget that radical groups like the CPC were a reaction to the desperation of the time. A pushback against foreign domination and humiliation. Mao and his ideologic forebearers from the late Qing and Republican era wouldnt want to destroy the 'traditional values' they identified as reasons for China's weakness, if China wasnt so beaten down by foreign powers at that time.
The european powers are very much responsible for creating China as it is today.
>>51735505
>What the hell is this?
>Where do we improving?
Mate, we are constantly improving, just not enough to keep up with society's ever growing standards.
>Or are born into this and get payed by actually working people. (Your royalty)
This is just one example. Our royalty doesn't have any notable power, and even though they live well and receive a lot of money, they offer their privacy and can't live like they want just so they can be the figureheads of my country. Plus they pay out their investment.
>I don't even know on what facts you form your presumptions. They are like completly imagined and without any background like something somebody told you and you simply believe.
>How about having a more critical view on our place and position.
Do you really have to resort to such fallacies now? Let's keep it at a normal discussion, shall we?
>>51735214
>Nobody sane actually cares that much for the lower class,
Well, maybe the KMT shouldn't have taken your advice to heart. Maybe they could've won if they didn't listen to your idiocy.
>Look at the massive brain drain from mainland and the damage it has caused.
Yes, the massive brain drain which resulted in massive amounts of FDI from offshore Chinese directly into the Chinese economy when these Chinese send money home. Also the massive established base for domestic spying across the entire planet just by contacting the right Chinatown.
>>51735731
Yes, there was that split between the urban commies (Chen Duxiu etc) and rural commies around Mao. After the Shanghai Massacre by the KMT in 1927, the urban commies and the representatives of the Coommunist Internationale were basically dead. This was actually one of the main reasons why the CPC, despite getting supported by the USSR, never was really loyal to the Russians. Mao was more a nationalist than a communist, and he sought to establish China as a independent communist power. He's basically like Tito, not like Stalin.
>>51735766
Very well, you make a good point. Nevertheless, it was due to China's own innate rigidity and sluggishness that the imperialist powers were able to screw the country over so badly.
>>51735784
>normal discussion
You just told me again that we are improving.
Well nice to hear that. And where exactly is the improvement. Any details?
German statistic actually shows a slow decline in wealth since the 90s.
At least here in Germany we are clearly "deproving". It should be the same in the Netherlands actually. Your GDP-growth is under 2% = deprovement that can't go with inflation.
>>51735645
Forgot to mention cis-fluid transflower ponies.
Reported.
>>51735796
>Well, maybe the KMT shouldn't have taken your advice to heart. Maybe they could've won if they didn't listen to your idiocy.
They should and did take my advice on heart. They just should've done a better job pretending to care for the lower classes.
>>51735796
>Yes, the massive brain drain which resulted in massive amounts of FDI from offshore Chinese directly into the Chinese economy when these Chinese send money home. Also the massive established base for domestic spying across the entire planet just by contacting the right Chinatown.
Which still does not provide the same value as these people could have provided had they not been driven away. I have several friends of Chinese descent, and none of them feels any loyalty towards the country their parents or grandparents fled from.
>>51735900
Of course, Imperial China's arrogance was one of the main reasons for their fall. Completely ignoring the technological advancement for the sake of harmony and stability proved to be fatal. Though it wasnt always like this, as one can see from the Song-Dynasty 700 years earlier, where signs of industrialization and technological advancement was already visible, until the Mongols fucked them over and set China back for 1000 years.
But similiar circumstances didnt prevent Japan from modernizing quickly after experiencing their first beatdown at the hands of the West.
China also attempted a Meiji-restauration styled modernization, but failed in the process, not just because of conservativism at the top (the last ditch reforms of 1899 were initiated by none other than Cixi herself, who has retarded modernization for so long) but also because the country itself was already in anarchy and chaos at that time, due to the christian Taiping Rebellion killing 30 million people and requiring extensive foreign support to beat down.
>>51735796
>Hurr durr china strong
Every second generation chink here hates the chinese government. You upper vlass and capital are fleeing a sinking ship. Enjoy
>>51735909
We might not be proving enough relative to the rest of the world to keep our advantage to them growing, but we are improving enough to keep the rest of the world from catching up.
Plus you were talking about how our society is corrupt, but my point still stands that this corruption takes a far larger toll on the development of the non-western world than it does on the western world in general.
>>51736034
>They should and did take my advice on heart.
Yes, and that is why they are stuck on an island today. How competent of them.
>Which still does not provide the same value as these people could have provided had they not been driven away.
Right, and you know this because what? A little bird whispered in your ear?
Oh, your anecdotal experiences. I see. What an impressive ironclad argument your "friends" are.
>>51736034
>I have several friends of Chinese descent,
I have several friends of German decent and the y actually don't feel any loyalty to the country they live in.
You talk like your stuff is in any way worth something.
Why don't we start a serious discussion, what are you afraid of? Do you think we don't know already that you know only a very few about our position and China?
>>51736206
*improving
>>51736174
Damn, you have a lot of knowledge. Where did you learn all this?
>>51736194
They hate the chinese government so much that tens of thousands wave chinese flags every time the newest commie leader visits your irrelevant little countries.
See: the recent UK visit.
And the Chinese economy has been predicted to sink eventually every year since 1949, my friend. Sinking into the clouds, I suppose.
>>51736206
Corruption is a cultural problem, not a political one.
India, being a democracy, is suffering under corruption a lot more than China, where there are at least basic established govermental systems around that keeps the country afloat and see to it that orders are carried out (or else, you wouldnt be able to build megalomanic infrastructure).
I would dare to say, even if China someday turns into a more liberal political system, corruption wont be weeded out unless they begin to implement a Singapore-styled legalist autocracy. This would ruin the fun for everyone, but at least corruption can be suppressed.
I have the feeling that Xi Jinping is currently trying to do that, though. My contacts in China (who are officials) are scared to death atm.
>>51736257
t.sinologist phd
>>51736347
Rising expectations little man, as was behind so many revolutions. Growth will slow, the boom will be over and people will no longer willing to tolerate an authoritarian regime with no material pay off
>>51736206
In Germany Bavaria is the by far most curropt country. It is also after Baden-Würtemberg the richest one. Also Bavarian economy is booming atm.
Bavaria is led by the exact same party since the 50s.
All those evil stuff makes actually the best place inside Germany.
But you throw again judgement and presumption at me.
You don't mention on what your oppinion is based. You just throw out "it is like this".
This is simply a sign of poor knowledge.
Try to argument more with reasons. Our lives will go worth not better. It is in all ways impossible that out stabdards will improve in the future. We all will have less. This doesn't sound like a improvement at all.
Why will we have less?
Our population is very old, most of our money will go to support the old. Our economy is stagnating. And of course we get some "Enrichment of high skilled people" that will surely improve Europe.
>>51732679
Terveisin, 50 Cent Army.
>>51736425
>I would dare to say, even if China someday turns into a more liberal political system, corruption wont be weeded out
No if, it IS true in Taiwan.
>>51736214
>Yes, and that is why they are stuck on an island today. How competent of them.
You were literally too lazy to read that second sentence, weren't you?
>Right, and you know this because what? A little bird whispered in your ear?
Just do a search on Pubmed or Ovid and look at all the publications that lead to American patents, with citizens with Chinese names that pay American tax dollars, and remember that Chinese hospitals pay good money to American companies to be able to view these publications and use the patented technology/medicine.
>Oh, your anecdotal experiences. I see. What an impressive ironclad argument your "friends" are.
>>51736216
>I have several friends of German decent and the y actually don't feel any loyalty to the country they live in.
Right. If even your German friends don't feel loyal to Germany, you really think Chinese diaspora would send money and intelligence to a country they only know from the terrible stories their family who fled that country for a reason told them?
>You talk like your stuff is in any way worth something.
>Why don't we start a serious discussion, what are you afraid of? Do you think we don't know already that you know only a very few about our position and China?
I'm not the one desperately resorting to lowly personal attacks all the time. I'll discuss seriously whenever you provide any normal point to discuss.
>>51735900
>>51736174
"The Empire of China is an old, crazy, first-rate Man of War, which a fortunate succession of able and vigilant officers have contrived to keep afloat for these hundred and fifty years past, and to overawe their neighbours merely by her bulk and appearance. But whenever an insufficient man happens to have the command on deck, adieu to the discipline and safety of the ship. She may, perhaps, not sink outright; she may drift some time as a wreck, and will then be dashed to pieces on the shore; but she can never be rebuilt on the old bottom"
-Macartney, British 18th century ambassador to China
>>51735282
>The KMT was one of those not-so-rare pro-western goverments
>KMT
>pro-Western
You clearly don't know enough about KMT ideology. Chiang Kai-Shek was not at all a friend of the US and Britain except insofar as he could sponge money off of us.
>>51736425
>I have the feeling that Xi Jinping is currently trying to do that, though. My contacts in China (who are officials) are scared to death atm.
Xi is only out to suppress corruption done by political rivals. Of course he won't do jack about corruption by his people.
>>51736573
Well... Asian societies tend to be quite corrupt in general. Even the 'cleanest' of them, like Japan, have lots of hidden corruption or at least nepotism and favoritism. Just they dont talk about it, because appearance is everything in these societies.
I think the Chinese societies have at least the advantage that they at least consider corruption to be something bad, driving corrupt people into the underground and making them hide their ill-gotten wealth. Unlike other countries (wink wink), where corruption is basically legalized and people boast about their 'bonuses'.
Only Singapore is relatively clean. But I dare to say that Singapore is a shithole in terms of having fun and living a 'free life'.
>>51736461
Yes, rising expectations my little shitposter.
Like the rising expectations when the PRC took over the KMT's seat at the UN.
Like the rising expectations when Nixon went to China.
Like the rising expectations when China begun to liberalize its economy massively under Deng Xiaoping.
Like the rising expectations during 1989 worker riots and student protests.
Like the rising expectations when China joined the WTO and the IMF.
Like the rising expectations today when the Chinese RMB became the 5th SDR currency in the last couple of weeks.
Any day now.
>>51736552
Stop talking, Indonesia.
>>51736600
Yeah, it was oversimplification to get the point across. CKS was an open admirer of fascism and the KMT itself is a party with a leninist organization.
Still, he didnt say no to US money and weapons.
first conquer
next purge their loyals
>>51736793
On V-E Day, CKS made a radio broadcast announcing "Now with Germany defeated, the whole weight of the civilized world comes crashing down on Japan."
This of course comes off as almost comical given his pro-German sympathies and referring to a quasi-medieval shithole like China as part of the civilized world.
>>51736732
At this stage, it already went beyond political purge. Read some Chinese language sources and you will see that he's already doing huge reforms in every sector. He's currently even purging his own men (General Liu Yuan, for example) and reforming the entire PLA's command structure (7 MRs down to 5 MRs).
My collegues all share your distrust, because western opinion about a communist system that is attempting to clean itself is always about "hurr purge" and "hurr useless", totally ignoring the institutional and systematic changes that has been completed.
Xi Jinping is kinda like Putin during his early reign, removing the filth from the bureaucracy that has been accumulated during Yeltzin's era and the 'Wild 90's', with KGB methods.
Now, Xi slowly has gathered enough power and influence to actually change things. And he does.
>>51736780
China is still really poor on a per capita basis and with a third world sized agrarian sector, so there is obviously a lot of room for growth until the eventual stagnation kicks in.
>>51736501
>In Germany Bavaria is the by far most curropt country. It is also after Baden-Würtemberg the richest one. Also Bavarian economy is booming atm.
>Bavaria is led by the exact same party since the 50s.
>All those evil stuff makes actually the best place inside Germany.
What makes you think Bavaria's success is based on its corruption?
>But you throw again judgement and presumption at me.
I don't.
>You don't mention on what your oppinion is based. You just throw out "it is like this".
And your opinions are all backed by factual evidence? If we wrote all 4chan posts like I write articles, this thread would 404 before I finished my posts.
Your stunted English phrases also sound distinctly Asian by the way. Just an observation, this doesn't in any way change the way I view your arguments.
>>51736593
Pretty nice quote.
>>51736425
>t.sinologist phd
Your posts are clear and informative. Your knowledge on the subject shows. Even though we may not agree on everything, at least with you I could have a normal discussion.
>I have the feeling that Xi Jinping is currently trying to do that, though. My contacts in China (who are officials) are scared to death atm.
Or he might be removing his political enemies on the pretence of battling corruption. We'll see how it turns out.
>>51736581
>You were literally too lazy to read that second sentence, weren't you?
Why did you assume I didn't? You think that would change my answer?
>patents
lol
>you really think Chinese diaspora would send money and intelligence to a country they only know from the terrible stories their family...
Unlike you, I don't have to resort to assumptions and anecdotes.
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1049007803000988
>>51736793
Anti-imperialism was a major plank of the KMT going back to Sun Yat-Sen, in fact them and the CCP would both maintain that they were the true heirs to his ideology.
Today's China ironically represents Chiang's vision for the country more than it does Mao's, a patriarchal, nationalistic autocracy but not having the utopian communal society that the latter envisioned.
But what is history taught like in Taiwan?
Taiwan seems closer to Japan so I imagine instead of rewriting history completely they just ignore history they don't like and don't cover it or deny it.
>>51736979
>Xi Jinping is kinda like Putin during his early reign, removing the filth from the bureaucracy that has been accumulated during Yeltzin's era and the 'Wild 90's', with KGB methods
Uh huh. And same. Putin removed the 90s oligarchs to replace them with his own friends, mainly old KGB buddies from back in the day. Meet the new boss same as the old boss.
>>51736941
FDR apparently thought quite highly of Chiang Kaishek, and had wanted him to be a major part of the postwar international order. Most of the other American foreign officials didn't particularly trust him though.
>>51736742
Chinese society tends to rely on relationship.
>>51737041
Yes, and that "eventual stagnation" isn't anywhere in sight. China's % growth may drop these days, but since the chink economy is much larger today it's still growing faster than before.
>>51737106
Yeah, especially the Jiang Zeming era was clearly like the KMT-envisioned China.
But now, with Xi and the New Left faction gaining traction, socialist ideals are slowly getting promoted again. One shouldnt forget that, despite being a huge dirtbag, Bo Xilai (the previous head of the New Left faction), actually promoted a different modernity for China, with his end-goal of creating a "Chinese Sweden" in terms of living standards and social welfare. Xi Jinping isnt that much different, even if Bo was his rival. Both of them are leftists at the core.
>>51737179
FDR was not a very saavy or informed guy on foreign affairs, he especially was clueless about Stalin's less-than savory plans for Eastern Europe.
>>51737081
>http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1049007803000988
>Foreign Direct Investment
You did not read this correctly, if you read beyond the abstract at all. The researchers basically proved that countries with more ethnically Chinese invest more in Chinese businesses. This does not equal just sending money to China, they do this to make a profit. It also naturally doesn't mention Chinese spying on the countries they live in.
>Why did you assume I didn't? You think that would change my answer?
I assumed you didn't because you completely ignored and still ignore it. The KMT should have done a better job at pretending to care for the common man.
>lol
You say this a lot. It's like you have nothing better to say.
>>51737412
don't feed the fenqing
>>51737165
Even if corruption isnt purged outright, one can see that Russia is now capable of gaining the initiative in lots of foreign-politics related things, which speaks of an unified command structure with Putin at the top. Also their military modernization turning the corrupted and inefficient Russian army into a modern interventionalist force, also speaks of his successes in streamlining the chain of command and purging military procurement.
Compare that with Jiang's era PLA, where warships were used by local commanders to smuggle drugs and weapons out and inside China, and how local de-facto 'warlords' had more to say than the central goverment, one can see why Xi actually admires Putin, who cleaned his house and centralized all power into his own hands.
If you think that dictatorship is bad, fractured dictatorship is worse: Instead of being oppressed by one central authority who at least acts according to laws (occassionally), you will be exploited and oppressed by every little district mayor and local party official, in addition to the Mafia and other criminals who are on the payroll with the political elites. Xi and Putin are both no democrats, but at least they want to strengthen central authority again and end the banana-republic-tier fragmentation of power.
>>51737412
>The researchers basically proved that countries with more ethnically Chinese invest more in Chinese businesses. This does not equal just sending money to China, they do this to make a profit.
I'm not sure where you're disagreeing with me here. The ethnic overseas chinks sends money to China, more ethnic chinks the more tendency to send money to china.
So you are wrong, again. As for Chinese spying, I'm pretty sure you can find whichever flavour you like just googling it.
>The KMT should have done a better job at pretending to care for the common man
You claimed the KMT took your advice, which in full was "the peasantry doesn't matter but they should pretend to care". Well, they believed the peasantry doesn't matter, and they are now stuck in Taiwan.
I say lol because you go off topic a lot, and that doesn't warrant a proper answer because I don't give a shit about your personal opinion on irrelevant things.
>>51737473
Kek, I'll stop. I feel like the discussion is becoming a bit pointless. I'm not here to have a heated discussion with no end, I just hope we have stimulated each other to both learn more about history. Don't mind if I continue reading the sinologist's posts while doing my Anki reps for today though.
>>51736425
Thank you. I think I learnt more from your posts than from the retarded history syllabus in HK. I'm not the other HK guy btw I'm just passing through.
>>51737879
It is pretty shit, our history syllabus.
Any attempt to change it though would be met with a huge backlash by our fifth columnist friends at the pan-democracy camp.
>>51737879
I'm still expecting an e-mail from a certain HK poster. Don't know if he's in this thread or still on this board though ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
>>51737670
>Also their military modernization turning the corrupted and inefficient Russian army into a modern interventionalist force, also speaks of his successes in streamlining the chain of command and purging military procurement.
The fuck. They're struggling to bomb a couple of sand niggers in Syria. Russia really has very limited ability to project power outside their borders and they're almost totally dependent on fragile oil prices (which are now sinking).
>>51737941
I hated Chinese History. All it did was teach us how worthless China was in the Qing Dynasty and how shitty the KMT and commies both were. Absolutely nothing said on the current situation except a half-assed explanation of Deng's opening up policies.
I dislike both camps though. Commie camp does nothing to improve our lives and most are retarded, while pan-democrats do nothing but whine and fling shit.
>>51737978
What's the email about? On a side note are you the netherlands dude I always see in threads related to China?
>>51738256
>What's the email about?
Don't ask me
>On a side note are you the netherlands dude I always see in threads related to China?
There are actually two of those, and I haven't been very active here for the last couple of weeks. I used to be active however in the East Asia threads that I found very informative and fun, though they eventually failed to garner a large enough population.
>>51738369
>east asia threads
>fun
usually they are just people flame each other...
i really miss that well-informed pinoy expert
>>51741630
>usually they are just people flame each other...
Goes for the whole board. I just felt like there were enough constructive posters that I actually learned a lot from those threads.
>>51738121
Actually, considering all the difficulties, they are doing kinda well. And I wont judge their military performance, since this is another topic. You know, "amateurs talk about tactics, professionals about logistics" etc... And latter is something the Russians are currently doing very well and has to be commended. Their capability to mobilize troops to fight so many hybrid-wars/interventions and outright invasions in such short amount of time speaks volume of their organizational capability and the political power Putin wields over them, to drive them around as if it was his private army. Take note that this is not a given! You cant compare a military of a more authoritarian country to that of a western democracy. Militaries in these political systems are usually highly fractionized and controled by different interest groups and even local military commanders - not like in a western country, where the military has been de-politicized and responds to the orders of the state (who, in turn is -at least theoretically- subject of the parliament and the people).
Putin's ability to mobilize an army of an authoritarian state is commendable and stands in harsh contrast to the PLA in China, that is still in the mids of factional struggle, leading to cases where XI Jinping couldnt even authorize effective border protection when Burma violated and bombed Chinese border (and even killed Chinese people) earlier this year.
The discourse of tactics and winning engagements and wars is another matter, which is less dependent on the political factor but more the military factor.
>>51742084
How important the political/logistical factor for the military performance at large can be best seen in the two instances of the Jiawu War (First Sino-Japanese War 1895) and the Korean War.
The Jiawu War was basically lost because of logistical and political reasons: Chinese ironclads and pre-dreadnaugh warships were actually superior to that of the Japanese, as China has imported the newest class of warships from Germany - but this didnt help them getting rekt by the Japanese because internal corruption bad coordination, leading to a lack of training and faulty maintenance fucked them up so bad (at one point, the Chinese gunpowder was made of sawdust because corrupt Mandarins embezzles the naval funding into their own pockets and cheated the inspectors). No amount of individual skill of the Chinese commanders (and some were actually quite good and Qing naval gunnery skills werent bad at all) could save the outcome of the war. Logistics and the political factor won over tactics and equipment again.
During Korean War, the Chinese army was a lot worse equipped compared to the US and UN forces relatively speaking, but they performed very well, because Mao wielded 100% politcal control over the army, making them push on despite suffering horrendeous losses and pushing the Western powers out of North Korea with nothing but peasant armies. Compared to how the KMT performed with marginally better equipped peasant forces during WWII agaisnt the Japanese, the PLA's performance stands in a stark contrast. It really helps if none of your commanders is selling away their weapons to warlords and run away at the first sight of the Japanese, abandoning their posts and leaving their men to be slaughtered. Organizational ability and discipline is something that can only be instilled, if your supreme commander, the state and their national leader, can wield total control over the military without influence of internal factionalization.
>>51738121
>>51742084
Add to that that projecting power outside your borders is more impressive when you have borders as large as those of Russia or China.
>>51742610
Continental powers always have to harder than island nations to project power, as they are always spending their entire military energies while on the defensive, and hardly have anything to spare for offensives.
The entire history of China, for example, were border wars with nomadic invaders and other kingdoms (Vietnamese Kingdoms, Tibetan Empire, Japan etc.). New territories were only gained after the respective peripheral kingdom was weakened through a war of attrition with China, and subsequently conquered. But at some points, even 'weak' empires like the Tibetans managed to conquer large swaths of China (FYI, the Tibetans pretty much invaded and destroyed the Tang-Dynasty - so much for the 'peaceful monks' myth).
>>51743097
>Tibetan ''''''Buddhism'''''
their religion is actually bronze-age tier. their rituals requires a lot of human sacrifice but monks (i.e. landowner clergy) dont give a fk about lives of slaves.
Japanese and Chinese Buddhism is so much better.
