This pretty much only concerns /balk/ but savvy anons can contribute.
I've been thinking about the ottoman occupation. Why isn't Balkanlar speaking T*rk? We adopted a lot of ottoman culture, but remained distinct and true to our faith, languages, our cultures and despite all the book burnings we've preserved (with a few blanc spots) our history fairly well. I'll cut to the chase.
The way I see it there are two possibilities of why ottoman domination over these parts didn't result in a more dramatic change.
First scenario is the more controversial one
>that it was never really that bad.
I mean stuff like janissaries are pretty dark, but again - if the terror was that severe, why isn't anyone of the main nations praying to Allah either before or after the liberation? Mohammedans are a minority mind you. You can say we gave ass to t*rk dick but for that to be true there should've been a greater degree of assimilation into ottoman society, yet here we are, 500 years later, still the same old people with the same old битиe и нpaви.
>The second scenario is that it really was as bad as memes make it out to be, but we simply endured and never ceased to struggle.
The problem with that proposition though is that you can't talk about it without sounding like a "we wuz kings n shit" asshole, as if we need the greatness of the old times to compensate for the moral and geopolitical stagnation of our states in modern days. Inferiority complex as they call it.
We never talk about this in schools, but it's a question that first page google searches have no answer for. On the other hand you have many authors talking about it, but they are mostly Bulgarian (because apparently the ottoman influence was most severe in our country), which kind of devalidates them because they can be accused of being too opinionated and less objective. I'd cite non-Balkan authors, but there aren't very many of those - the reality is no one cares. So anyone up for a discussion?
>>51637407
tl;dr
>>51637407
It is because Ottomans never forced anyone to speak any language. Under millet system everyone was free to speak their community's language and keep their own religious rule as long as they kept paying their taxes and gave some of their children to devshirme system.
Ottomans were shit and incompetent but it wasn't 500 years of rape enslavement like your 19th century nationalist songs make it out to be.
>>51637407
The devsirme shit happened only a couple of times throughout the 5 centuries when there were heavy wars with Austria and they needed more men so they got local boys.
Ottomans were actually pretty tolerant of other religions because they were not even muslim themselves up until the 14th century and reigion wasn't that important to them. For them a nonmuslim population was just as good as muslim because it meant more taxes (christians paid taxes for not participating in wars because christians weren't allowed to bear arms). They did convert some people but it was not a forceful conversion as we are taught, you were paid and you were paid enough money to buy a large house in a medium sized town.
Bulgarians conserved their culture because they basically lived in isolation from the turks. They lived in mountainous villages and their only contact with the ottomans was through the chorbajii who were paying the village taxes to the Ottomans, regular folk didn't communicate with turks so there wasn't much influence.
>>51637407
that's because ottoman culture is really byzantine culture
>>51637407
Perhaps it was a mix of the two:
It wasn't as bad as the memes or authors say it was and we mostly kept to ourselves anyway and kept a low profile. I don't think many people gave a flying fuck because everyone was relatively poor and had next to no clue of the Renaissance and the outside world.
Ignorance was bliss.
I've had this conversation with my dad and his wife (wew divorse LMAO) and they were divided on this - dad said Turks never tried to assimilate us and his wifu insisted we waz resilient
I'm not informed on the subject, I'm hopeful of this thread (which I will now read).
>>51637407
>Why isn't Balkanlar speaking T*rk?
Because ottomans like byzantines like romans like AH like anyone else was an empire
Stop viewing everything through the lense of napoleonic nation states
why should a monarch give a shit which language is spoken if taxes are delivered regularly
it's not a republic no need for national unity
>>51638751
>why should a monarch give a shit which language is spoken if taxes are delivered regularly
Judea should have been razed to the ground.
>>51638751
Why do you always post this cat?
>>51638796
it was, check the Zealot Rebellion
>>51638812
it amuses me to do so
>>51638837
>it was, check the Zealot Rebellion
I mean genocide, not destroying temples
Hadrian did not go far enough.
the christians paid taxes that muslims did not. Balkans paid the majority of taxes because that's where the majority of christians were. the Ottomans liked money same as everyone, so the story that they wanted to force entire populations onto islam is false.
Generally, whenever there is a smaller nation that was a subject to a larger nation/empire, their history always tells the same story
>oh, they tried to assimilate us into becoming them, but we were too stronk and too proud to let that happen
but that's fairytales, almost always the larger nation didn't care at all.
>>51638864
well he did dispersed the Jews all around the world
>>51638887
>Generally, whenever there is a smaller nation that was a subject to a larger nation/empire,
>as he speaks English on an English-language site
ironically, the USA/Britain doesn't care (especially us, since we don't annex anyone or even demand tribute), yet this is still happening
English is a parasite
>>51638964
>we don't annex anyone
>or even demand tribute
m8
Because paying taxes and sending food was more important than assimilation, and natives tend to react very poorly when the conqueror tries to assimilate them.
>>51638994
>implying the USA doesn't spend millions of dollars defending people it really doesn't need to defend
we're practically giving money away
>>51639042
you benefit from every dollar invested
>>51639042
>he really thinks the us spends all those trillions to "defend" other people
ayyyyyymericans
>>51639070
but is it tribute? no
the USA benefits from keeping the seas safe (trade jews) and gains more money during peacetime than war
if Europe's GDP is destroyed by Russia, the US economy would tank.
>>51639011
Yea, it either happens naturally, doesn't happen or it happens forcefully.
1 didn't happen, 3 would have been dangerous and pointless from the view of the sultan so 2 ended up happening.
>>51638964
that's a two way street, the way the world is going america will taste what it's been spreading, as the brits have long ago
>>51639100
you openly bully smaller countries until they adhere to your will
how is that not a tribute
>>51639117
>that's a two way street, the way the world is going america will taste what it's been spreading, as the brits have long ago
Red countries on map are countries that Britain either invaded or warred against.
Are you saying the USA has done this shit?
>>51638964
>ironically
Except that's not ironically, thats LITERALLY what i said in the first place. 10 000 spoons are more ironical
>>51639152
>you openly bully smaller countries until they adhere to your will
yes, we truly bullied your continent with the Marshall Plan and wasting countless dollars ensuring capitalism's survival in Europe
or do you really want to return to the USSR?
>>51639201
Poland never received any Marshall monies
your argument kinda falls short
>>51639162
>greece
fake
>>51639162
I'm not talking about war, I'm talking about culture.
America exports tons of culture, but as the world becomes anglospeaking america will be flooded with english based culture that isn't their own.
Brits already experienced this from americans.
>>51637407
Partially because Ottomans didn't force anyone, but also because Christians lived outside the cities. Most of the Balkans, as you may know, is pretty mountainous, so Christian villages were out of the way and not easy to reach. Add to it that the roads were poor and Christians lived in a state of isolation-lite, coming in contact with Ottomans only when taxes had to be collected.
>>51639222
which is why I said "your continent"
not to mention the countries that DID accept Marshal Plan money acted as a giant wall against communism further spreading into Europe, which meant that the iron and coal of France/Germany and the oil of Norway would have fallen into their hands.
Which would have meant Poland would have quite possibly been gommie well into 2015. Resources matter, and the Marshall Plan in fact did benefit you by preventing the USSR from having more resources to prop its failing economy (by the 1980s)
>>51639266
You realize it was the Brits who started your fucking civil war, right?
>>51639277
Fair enough point. Although I'm not worried about some Bulgarian giving me Bulgar culture in English. I'm more worried about a Mexican who, despite sharing North America with two English-speaking countries, is too dumb to even be able to learn the language.
>>51639336
rebuilding Western Europe just ensured that you had a trading partner in the following years, that's why America strived in the 60s
>>51639336
>You realize it was the Brits who started your fucking civil war, right?
neither an invasion or a war against us, they were requested by the government
>>51639373
>neither an invasion or a war against us, they were requested by the government
I'm talking about them shooting 30 Greek civilians, which sparked it.
Not the support the Brits gave to the government. Considering the Brits were still killing Greeks (albeit gommie Greeks), Greeks are Greeks.
That's like saying the USA never killed any Vietnamese because "lol we're allied with South Vietnam"
>>51639423
I guess if you really stretch it
makes sense that most the map is red now
>>51639487
if Brits arrive on your shores with guns, it's always a reason to be concerned
>>51639358
>Turkey worse than Greece
Failed again
>>51639512
unless you have guns yourself, in which case you're perfectly fine.
>>51637407
>stuff like janisseries are pretty dark
öff :-d
>>51639921
>>51639960
quality posts
>>51639938
didn't do the indians much good
>>51638706
This
Empires were entirely different structures. There were various timeframes that Ottomans were majority Orthodox and there hadn't been any revolt or something.
also
While Albania, Bosnia etc adopted Islam (and with it a "Turkish" identity, but kept their languages, in other countries, like Greece Turkish settlers and local converts were removed/massacred, not just in 1922-3 but also in earlier waves of revolution/civil war.
I think the highest rate of Islamisation/Turkification in SE Europe after Bosnia and Albania was in Crete, at around 40% of the population, but they were all expelled in the late 19th c
Furthermore, Christianity and trade/cultural links with the West gave subject Christian populations in the Balkans greater access to written education in their own language than most Turks/Muslims had, allowing them to preserve and even strengthen their pre-conquest cultural identities.
You can see a similar process with the Christians in Lebanon vs Sunnis and Shias after the 1860s, despite their common Arabic language.
>>51639266
They blockaded you twice at least
>>51637407
it's a combination of all
for bulgaria, we're talking about 500 years of being annexed
the first years when they were invading it was prob most brutal. then the ottomans politically allied our free christian neighbors (romania, austria-hungary, etc) and had political relations with the occupied balkans (taking greek princesses into their harems, deals with the chorbajii, etc)
there were some revolts too, i think most of them were in serbia, and they were throughout the annexation, until liberation.
what people say about taxes and ottomans not caring has to at least largely true as well, but that was in the later stages.
surely the ottmans massacred people when they wanted to make an example and raped etc
also
https://bg.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A7%D0%B5%D1%80%D0%BA%D0%B5%D0%B7%D0%B8
>Bиcoкaтa пopтa взимa peшeниe зa кoнцeнтpиpaнe нa чepкeзкитe бeжaнци в хpиcтиятнcкитe пpoвинции нa импepиятa и ocнoвнo: Бългapия, Maкeдoния, днeшнитe чacти нa Moлдoвa, Pyмъния, Cъpбия /paйoнa нa Цapибpoд, Hиш и Лecкoвaц/, Кocoвo и чacт oт Ceвepнa Гъpция. B paйoнитe нa paзceлвaнe нa чepкeзитe, мecтнoтo хpиcтиянcкo нaceлeниe e билo зaдължeнo дa им изгpaди жилищa. Цeлтa e тeзи peгиoни дa ce зaceлят c кoмпaктнa мaca мюcюлмaнcкo нaceлeниe, кoeтo в бъдeщe дa пapиpa вceки oпит зa бopбa cpeщy cyлтaнcкaтa влacт. Oпитът пo-къcнo пoкaзвa, чe чepкeзитe ycпeшнo ce изпoлзвaт в кaчecтвoтo им нa милиции, ocoбeнo пo вpeмe нa Aпpилcкoтo въcтaниe пpeз 1876 г.
>>51645310
we preserved out language and writing mostly because of the church. and the ottomans (although "regulated") did let us keep the churches. even istoria slavianobulgarska was written by a monk, and we had the kiliini uchilishta.
today our gypsies call themselves turks, but that's probably more recent actions of the republic of turkey than ottomans.
not all of our muslims are pomaci as we like to think, there are some legit turks. for example in the north, supposedly ottomans sent them there when a disease killed the natives, but it was fertile land so they gave it to muslims. if what people say about wanting to tax fertile land is true they'd have put christians there. so it just goes to show you can't just paint 500 years with one explanation.
and lastly pic related, our revival process during monarchy and communism made turks / muslims change their names and give up their religion (as well as destroying mosques, etc). infact the muslim population in kosovo and rest of the balkans spiked only after we got "democracy"
overall i say who cares, really. it was a mix. mostly bad as we missed the enlightenment. but we can't just blame the turks / ottomans for that. they were heavily supported by the UK and france, and the republic of turkey was born out of defeating the ottomans.
plus, since "democracy" many people don't even feel "brotherly" to russia or other slavs. many are not grateful for the liberation anyway, and in fact some prefer turkey today, as a moderate muslin nation, in NATO, which trades with us, guards our boarder from refugees, is a "shield" against russia etc.
tl;dr: everyone's right. no one's right. not like it matters anyway
>>51637610
/thread
