The Virgin Mary never really had a giant role in the Bible, but why and how did she become such a revered and sacred symbol in almost all branches of Christianity?
What do you mean she didn't play a big role.... She played one of the absolute biggest.
Did you know that she is the completed representation of Eve? The New Testament is supposed to be the completed half of what the Old Testament left off of and left uncompleted.
Whenever you see depictions and pictures of Eve, you'll always notice that the snake is above her on the branch above her head (this is on purpose). But in depictions of Mary and the snake. The snake is under her foot because Mary's role was to help finally trample evil and the devil once and for all so that no longer would evil be able to have a chance at trumping God's people. Anyone who wishes to be saved, can.
Mary played a HUGE role and this is only one example.
Syncretism in early Christianity combining the Virgin Mary with popular goddess cults in the late Roman world, such as those of Isis or Cybele.
>>81763
Most of the world worshiped Goddesses before Christianity showed up to paint the roses red.
She gave birth to Jesus, OP, I'm not sure what you're talking about
Also no sect or denomination of Christianity- including, Catholicism has ever worshipped or praised Mary or any one of the saints. This is a common misconception that is in no way true.
Just thought the rest of you should know :)
Why didn't Paul, John, Peter, or James talk about Mary?
Because Greco-Roman polytheists transferred their Hera-cult over to Jesus' mother.
Prove me wrong?
>>82092
Then what do you call those guys going around praying to saints?
>>82182
Well, the rationale goes. That praying to a saint is actually just referring god.
Let me explain it this way:
A saint is simply a person who has entered heaven. They're great and holy people, yada yada. When you look at any prayer set for a saint what you are actually praying for is the saint to pray for you! And reference you to god!
It's like when someone in your family has cancer... Many people asked other people to pray for them as they believe in the power of prayer. When you pray to a saint you regard the same thing. You respect a saint for their love of god, they wouldn't wish to be worshipped. If you "worship" a saint. You're following your own doctrine and misinterpretations as a Saint would never wish or admire worship. It makes no sense. (Even in Holy Mary you ask Mary to pray for you, etc etc). I hope this better explains it.
I think she only has like one speaking line in the entire bible.
>>81763
>The Virgin Mary never really had a giant role in the Bible
Giving birth to God isn't a giant role? Being God's handmaiden isn't a giant role?
> how did she become such a revered and sacred symbol
Take a look at these three verses, the first two to Mary, the third spoken by Mary:
"And she spake out with a loud voice, and said, Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb."
"And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women."
"For he hath regarded the low estate of his handmaiden: for, behold, from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed."
>but why and how did she become such a revered and sacred symbol in almost all branches of Christianity?
Because she's pretty much the closest person to being a nun at the time, and she obviously was important for being chosen to birth Christ. But I guess Protestants don't pay as much attention to her as Catholics for some reason. Probably because of their stance on immaculate conception and all that. As an Orthodude she's pretty significant for us as well.
>>82182
heretics
>>82182
Asking someone alive to pray for you is considered normal, and the saints are alive, in heaven, with God. That means they aren't sinners any more. So it's pretty reasonable to ask them to pray for you.
I thought you adoptionists died years ago.
>>81886
>Did you know that she is the completed representation of Eve? The New Testament is supposed to be the completed half of what the Old Testament left off of and left uncompleted.
Slow down Dan Brown. Where in the Bible does it say this? Nowhere
>>82488
Orthodox don't subscribe to immaculate conception either. We don't have to because we don't think original sin is an STD.
>>82515
You're asking where in the Bible is says the NT is a fulfillment of the OT (The Law)?
>>82092
But we do praise them. You're right in that we don't worship them, but to suggest that praise is not part of veneration and devotion is simply incorrect.
>>82419
>A saint is simply a person who has entered heaven
I thought a saint has to be given official recognition by the Vatican, either when they're alive or post-humus, like Joan of Ark?
>>82488
Yes, it's all true. Protestants have many reasons for not regarding Mary. And it all becomes complicated as there are MANY denominations of protestants. It all boils down to their interpretation and wishing to be different from Catholicism, I guess.
>>82527
>Orthodox don't subscribe to immaculate conception either
Well yeah I know that, but Cathodox both believe that Mary was sinless, which is a big part of her popularity, but I don't think that's true for most Protestants since they only believe Jesus was sinless (correct me if I'm wrong Protties).
>>82583
Not him but to become a saint, I believe, you have to preform a miracle after you die.
Like someone prays to you and gets cured of cancer.
They take it very seriously.
>>82583
Yes, to be a VERIFIED saint. You can't just go around professing your Aunt is a saint. It has to be determined by the Vatican and there is an extensive process and criteria. But we are all called to be saints. We are all called to be apart of heaven.
>>82640
this is true
Why do Catholics and Orthodox think Mary was sinless?
>>82683
This. She clearly cheated on her husband.
>>82683
Because God chose her to bear His Son.
>>82515
The New Testament is constantly aware and referring back to the Old Testament. Plus, the Jew's were literally waiting for their Messiah to complete the Old Testament and it's works. And Christ did that just not how they expected (aka dying for their sins and whatnot). Also, the Bible uses over 10 different literary devices to convey it's message. That's why its difficult to know when a passage is meant literally or figuratively. And why there are scholars whose life's work is figuring and understanding this shit
>>82683
Because mary somehow convinced Joseph that Yahweh fucked her and not the guy down the street.
Joseph is clearly a kek. There's no other way around it.
If you want to take it literally it's supposed to be the messiah and mary diddn do nuffin. She's just obeying God's plan.
>>82683
From the introduction of Pope Pius XI's Ineffabilis Deus:
>God Ineffable—whose ways are mercy and truth, whose will is omnipotence itself, and whose wisdom "reaches from end to end mightily, and orders all things sweetly"—having foreseen from all eternity the lamentable wretchedness of the entire human race which would result from the sin of Adam, decreed, by a plan hidden from the centuries, to complete the first work of his goodness by a mystery yet more wondrously sublime through the Incarnation of the Word. This he decreed in order that man who, contrary to the plan of Divine Mercy had been led into sin by the cunning malice of Satan, should not perish; and in order that what had been lost in the first Adam would be gloriously restored in the Second Adam. From the very beginning, and before time began, the eternal Father chose and prepared for his only-begotten Son a Mother in whom the Son of God would become incarnate and from whom, in the blessed fullness of time, he would be born into this world. Above all creatures did God so lover her that truly in her was the Father well pleased with singular delight. Therefore, far above all the angels and all the saints so wondrously did God endow her with the abundance of all heavenly gifts poured from the treasury of his divinity that this mother, ever absolutely free of all stain of sin, all fair and perfect, would possess that fullness of holy innocence and sanctity than which, under God, one cannot even imagine anything greater, and which, outside of God, no mind can succeed in comprehending fully.
http://www.ewtn.com/LIBRARY/PAPALDOC/P9INEFF.htm
>>82742
>Jesus preaching feel good liberal shit
Except that's wrong.
>>82919
There are several Jesuses in Ghastly's universe. That was drunk and bitter Jesus.
>>82980
Mainline Protestants do
>>82915
Aka, God decided to exclude her from original sin since the moment of her conception. So that she could bear his son in the future. As nothing clean and come and be birthed from something unclean. So Mary had to be saved from original sin in order to give birth to Christ.
>>82915
>Jesus is perfect so Mary is perfect
This doesn't really seem to mean anything
>>83024
>>83024
>As nothing clean and come and be birthed from something unclean.
So was her mother sinless too?
>>83031
Lol where'd you'd that mate?
>>83073
Sort of. She was a virgin, and God specially condoned and assisted Mary's conception to make it sinless. That's what the immaculate conception is about.
>>83073
No, they conceived Mary in the usual way. God in this instant chose to save Mary and divinely intervened and saved her from original sin. Though it is a common misconception that her parents were apart of the immaculate conception. But no they weren't.
>>83024
that means tat so did all her predecessors
>>83143
>>83158
Then why didn't he just do that directly to Jesus?
>>83158
Continued: That's why Jesus was born without sin(obviously). Because God had preserved and saved Mary from sin and planted God's inevitable perfect seed(lol). And here it was that two clean beings brought forth a clean being.
>>83187
this
someone answer
>>82515
>muh sola scriptura!
Fuck off. Mary is the mother of God. She has the biggest role in Salvation other than Jesus himself. Of course she gets a huge amount of veneration and is pretty much first among the saints.
>>83143
No, Anna was definitely not a virgin. The Immaculate Conception is just saying that Mary's conception did not involve Original Sin.
It's sort of like she was afforded the saving grace that comes with Baptism right at the moment of conception, before Jesus even underwent his passion, death and resurrection.
>>83187
Because we're not talking about historic fact. We're talking about real figures that ended up being deified, and people had to rationalize how their divinity coexisted with their real existence. For Jesus to be the son of God, he needed to be perfect, which meant a sinner couldn't give birth to him, which meant Mary had to be born free of sin.
None of this needs to be logical.
>>83187
Good question. Lol here is where some people get confused. I know I did. Because he couldn't be born at all with the original sin of Adam. The vessel in which he came in had to be purified, if you were tobsay to come into this world truly "pure". You see Mary, though sinless, still had the option of freewill. She was saved from sin but like Adam and Eve and the rest of humanity she had freewill. She could've chosen to sin, but didn't. God had to make a clean vessel in which to bring forth his version of God- his son on Earth. It's complicated. I get it. Theology and whatnot
>>81896
>>81924
Knew niggas would say this but kinda surprised it didn't make first post.
>>82851
When you look into history and Jewish theology it's very appearent that Jesus is no sacrifice. If you go searching for the Jewish reasons why Jesus failed as a sacrifice it's very amusing. One of the rules about sacrifice in Judaism, one of the most common ones, is that you cannot sacrifice humans. That's a sin. So it would mean that not only is Jesus invalid as a sacrifice but his willingness to go through with it would constitute a sin. Even if you ignore that, animal sacrifice could only remove unintentional sins. Intentional sins could only be forgiven by charity or good deeds. And to top it off the whole idea of an innocent being sacrificed for the guilty is forbidden in Ezekiel 18:20-23. Add in Jesus's claim that he came to "fufill the law" and you can see he set himself up for failure.
It's rather interesting to read. Sacrifice in Judaism is fairly complex. You can't just throw any a person on a cross and declare that there is no sin.
http://outreachjudaism.org/jesus-death-atone-for-sin/
>>83187
Because Jesus is both fully human and fully god.
Thus he needs a human family to be brought to life into to participate in the full context of humanity.
Christianity and Catholicism are all about community, with the family unit and married life forming the focal point regarding it. Jesus' participation in this family life is shown to sanctify and enshrine it as important in forming the human person.
>>83187
Jesus IS God. But he's also "the son of man". Mary is sort of the redeemer of women...not in a way that she redeems their sin, but Mary and Christ are the new Eve and Adam. Eve used to be the representative of women, but now Mary is. Adam used to be the representative of men, but now Jesus is.
>respect thy mother and father
>Literally jesuses mother
>>83358
>it's very appearent that Jesus is no sacrifice.
Uh no.
There are many different aspects as to why his death and resurrection were necessary, but a very consistent frame of description and imagery used with it is that of the sacrificial lamb. The sacrifice that the high priests offered in the Holy of Holies in the temple to atone for the sins of all the people. Jesus did not FAIL as a sacrifice, he was the FINAL sacrifice, the ultimate one that negated the need for any other animal sacrifice to take away sin.
>You can't just throw any a person on a cross and declare that there is no sin
This is not "any person" THIS IS LITERALLY THE SON OF GOD offered up in humanity's place.
>>83361
As right as your statements are about the church and how it views community and whatnot. This didnt answer the question.
>>83366
Thanks this was helpful
>>83409
>THIS IS LITERALLY THE SON OF GOD offered up in humanity's place.
>LITERALLY THE SON OF GOD
that's just your opinion, man.
>>83338
Even made up shit is ideally logical or comical.
>>83366
Why not just make holy twins, if that was the goal? They could rez each other all day.
>>83348
So Jesus had no free will. He was a robot.
>>83366
Correct. John's gospel in particular echoes a lot of the poetic imagery and symbolism regarding the creation narratives in Genesis. Especially in the first chapter leading up to the Wedding of Cana. The description of the passing of days, and the conversations that take place at the wedding are meant to reflect the passage of time as God created the universe originally, and both stories end with God attending and blessing a wedding (Adam and Eve being consecrated to each other in Genesis, and the wedding of Cana that Jesus performs his first public miracle at to start his ministry on Earth). In that sense, John is trying to show the re-creation of the world with his gospel narrative.
>>83443
>Why not just make holy twins, if that was the goal? They could rez each other all day.
Because there is no God the Daughter.
>>83358
In addition, to that other guy's response on this. Christ broke rules and grounds regarding Judaism. He literally did not give a fuck and came to speak God's word alone. There were many places where Judaism was wrong in the eyes of Christ. So it wouldn't have mattered if they believed it to be a sin or not.
Kinda like how you couldn't address a woman or speak to her in public? Or else major shit would go down? Yeah he didn't give a fuck. He talked to them regardless and everyone flipped a shit.
Or how touching the dead was the equivalent of cursing yourself? Yet Jesus touched a whole lot of sick AND dead people.
>>83425
How not?
>>83433
Just trying to explain things from the Christian perspective. Of course if you don't believe that Jesus is the Son of God after all, then that conclusion does not follow.
>>83443
>So Jesus had no free will. He was a robot.
What part of "FULLY HUMAN AND FULLY GOD" do you not understand? Go back and read the Agony in the Garden again. Jesus could've turned it down, he could've chosen to use his divine power to stay his execution. But he didn't He accepted his role in the drama of salvation.
As theologians much, much better at this than I am have stated, he was like us in everything except sin.
That also means he faced temptation.
>>83024
So Mary did not have Free Will since free will is contingent on original sin?
>>83535
I personally think Syncretism is a load of speculative horseshit, but there are always carryovers in imagery and some cultural traditions between different societies that interact with each other.
>>83510
And my question was, if both sexes needed a redeemer, why not?
>>83476
Yaas finally people are getting it yo
>>83361
How can he be fully human if he doesn't have original sin or free will since according to the bible those are the major component of being a human?
>>83545
>hat is also why the Resurrection falls on Sunday, the first day.
And also because of how the description of the process of entombing and anointing his dead body is laid out in the gospels, we know that he would've had to have died on a Friday (since they had no time to actually properly treat the body according to custom before the Jewish Sabbath started).
>>83542
Free will is not contingent on original sin.
Seeing as, y'know, Adam and Eve CHOSE to sin before that even existed in the Garden of Eden.
>>83535
Weeb here. Praise the sun.
>>83594
I'm trying to argue that he does up here
>>83534
>>83603
>>83409
So humanity no longer suffers and dies?
If they do, what is the point of sacrificing someone in their place if they still suffer and die?
>>83542
NOoo she DID. She had free will just as Adam and Eve and the rest of humanity has free will. God created man with free will as one of his greatest points and greatest gifts upon us. Adam and Eve had freewill even before they sinned. How do you think they sinned in the first place?
>>81763
I don't understand why so many people emphasize the Seven Sorrows
>>83556
Because God the Sun wasn't created to redeem the sexes, he always existed. He's Logos.
>>83626
>So humanity no longer suffers and dies?
Dies, yes.
But now death is no longer the suffering condemnation that it was before, now that the opportunity to be saved and to be fully reconciled with God exists. That is Jesus' ultimate purpose. He is often described as the mediator between God the Father and us humans, standing on our behalf before God and allowing us the opportunity to repent of sin, be made fully clean again, and able to stand in God's presence in heaven.
A big part of Christianity is also accepting suffering and bearing it gladly, because in doing so we share in Christ's ultimate suffering on our behalf, and it helps us draw closer to him.
>>83603
>Adam and Eve CHOSE to sin before that even existed in the Garden of Eden.
No, they couldn't logically make that choice because they had no knowledge of good and evil.
>>83626
Christians don't die.
>>83683
The fact still remains they knew the consequences, knew that God had specifically told them "HEY GUYS, DON'T DO THIS" , and CHOSE to do it anyways.
That is totally free will.
>>83683
They knew eating it would kill them.
>>83674
*Son
>>83680
>death is no longer the suffering
>accepting suffering and bearing it gladly
Rainbow ruse detected
>>83700
You can't sin without free will, even with outside influence. That's why animals can't sin. In Orthodoxy they still have souls, though.
>>83747
Everyone has a narrative to frame their life to justify suffering and pain in this world. What's yours?
>>83775
Aquinas argued that they have souls as well, just not immortal souls like us. But that definition of "soul" is more like "awareness and response to stimuli that acts upon the world around it".
>>83728
No they didn't, they thought it would make them more helpful to the god they loved instead of being his pet.
>they knew the consequences
No, they clearly believe the snake's deception because they weren't equipped to understand deception in a garden that never changed and had no consequences for untold millennia at that point because they were not given knowledge of truth/lie.
>>83747
Paradox is a fundamental aspect of Christianity, dude.
>For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.
>>83706
So why are there still dead people
Christians: 0
Enlightened men: 1
>>83825
Their bodies are dead only until the second coming when the full, bodily resurrection of the faithful occurs. Those who are saved get to live in the new, perfected creation (the Kingdom of God on Earth, not as disembodied spirits, but as perfected physical, human persons), and those who are not saved get their bodies as well, but instead get thrown into the pit of fire with the Beast and Satan and all of his cronies.
>>83807
They don't have souls in Catholic doctrine.
In some Orthodox theology, humans have three elements: body, soul and spirit. The spirit is a non-corporeal form, like angels have. Humans are the only beings with all three. Angels have a spirit and a soul, but no body. Animals have a body and an immortal soul, but no spirit (they get their bodies back after death on judgement day).
>>83626
I hope I'm understanding this question. I'm not person you replied to BTW.
Jesus died for us , as stated before, so that no other suffering on Earth would be necessary or in vain. His scarification was an atonement to US (mankind). It was him, finally, coming down and giving his hand in the most humble way possible: by living out our lives and our struggles. Stating "there you no longer have to sacrifice yourselves or anything else in vain, for I have done it for you", anyone who wishes to be saved, forever can because he conquered all evil by doing this. And before this there was no for sure way people knew who to reach God.
The Jew's hadn't been saved yet. It was an outcry for centuries "How long will you have us wait Lord?" They were waiting for a Messiah to lead them to salvation. That's what it was all about.. completing that chapter
>>83825
>enlightened men: 1
wew lad better get a whole of that fedora there
>>83825
The Christian body dies until judgement day, but their spirit doesn't. People who aren't saved die in both body and spirit.
>>83777
It is just a random part of the emergent phenomena of life and individual self preservation because the universe wasn't consciously made by a benevolent all powerful being that just causes suffering to fuck with the great great grand children of people who didn't understanding the premise of the trick they were never taught until they fell for it the hard way.
>>83872
>They don't have souls in Catholic doctrine.
I was trying to point out that a lot of theologians drew a distinction between different kinds of souls, bro. I know the Catholic church doesn't teach that they have immortal souls that can participate in sin and salvation like we can.
>>83822
Shouldn't that be your first clue it is bullshit?
>>81763
On top of being central to the story, and therefor central to EVERYTHING, Mary played a huge post-biblical role.
>>83913
I dunno, I like the idea that there's a purpose and order ordained to shit that happens in the universe more.
It makes for a more entertaining story.
>>83872
Actually, that's also in all Catholic and even some protestant theology- though scarce. Catholics believe that same thing.
>>83927
Better just write off the whole human condition then, brother, because we are just walking bundles of contradictions and paradoxes, and shit that doesn't make sense according to our limited, mortal perspectives.
>I don't understand it, therefore it must be bullshit!
See the fallacy in that claim?
>>83877
>by living out our lives and our struggles
Yes, the way all of us struggle to perform thousands of impossible miracles, raise ourselves from the dead, come and go from reality as please, and eventually float off into the sky to meet up with pa and come up with a strategy for destroying the world again.
>>83948
No, it is way more depressing to think this is how a divine plan turned out than to think this is all the result of monkeys rising out of shit goo to terraform an entire planet to their collective liking.
>>83985
Did you miss literally every single one of his teachings in between those? The miracles are meant to show his authority as the Son of God AND to illustrate larger truths about the nature of God and his relation to us.
Jesus could raise himself from the dead, because, again, Son of God, but we are offered that same chance at resurrection as well through the grace that Jesus offers us.
>yfw keked by God himself
>>83985
Lol I mean he IS god, after all set out with an incredible task. But what I said still reigns true my friend.
>>83977
Paradox doesn't mean something that is hard to understand, dipshit, you are just confusing yourself with semantics, you are not a paradox or a contradiction.
>>83714
Where did they get knowledge of the consequences?
>>83674
You don't seem to get this "answer" concept, so I'm going to assume you don't know.
>>83927
No, at least not from an Orthodox perspective. God isn't found through reasoning, but through spiritual experience. And once you have that experience in paradox, it is beautiful. The central example being Christ as 100% human and 100% God, even though those are mutually exclusive.
>>83872
>>83952
No two of you people agree on anything.
>>84077
>And once you have that experience in paradox
>The central example being Christ as 100% human and 100% God
Now you claiming to be Christ?
>>84029
I know how it feels on 4chan sometime, and how a lot of people come here because their life is shit and they have nothing better to do with their time other than stew in their anti-social moodiness and bitch about inconsequential matters anonymously.
That is not was humans are called to do. That is not what our lives are intended to be oriented towards. It's not about giving up hope because everything's out of control, it's about seeing ourselves in a context larger than ourselves, in that the universe is not oriented towards humanity suffering, but towards teaching us how to develop in conjunction with it, embracing it and incorporating it into that worldview, rather than rejecting it all as meaningless.
Everything is a part of that story. You, me, this shitty imageboard, all the other anons in this thread, everything. You are exactly where you need to be right now. I can't tell you why though, that's between you and God to figure it out.
>>84070
>Where did they get knowledge of the consequences?
God literally told them "DON'T EAT THE FRUIT FROM THIS TREE OR YOU WILL DIE"
Go read Genesis again.
Welp, I'm going to bed. It was nice discussing such matters and explaining and what not. But ima sleep. Peace
http://strawpoll.me/5908001
should the mods enable ids?
>>84125
So... God wants me to fuck around on the internet intermittently masturbating?
Wait, I'm not supposed to masturbate. But that's part of the plan.
God wants me to masturbate so he can punish me for it.
That's pretty kinky actually.
>>84125
I guess you will have to see if you feel the same way after the universe has caused you meaningless suffering and rejected you.
>>83948
Don't think we don't appreciate all the tits and explosions, either.
>>84113
I claim to be created in His Image, and Icon of Christ. I am worse creature, the only one that sins, but also the best creature.
Another great paradox: Christ is both our Lord and God (John 20: 28) yet also our servant (Luke 22: 27). Is that not a beautiful paradox?
>have to get up for work at 6am
>still need to get a shower and pack shit for work
>mfw I realize that now 4chan has an entire board dedicated to topics that include religious discussion so I'm going to be arguing Soteriology every night now when I need to be sleeping
FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUCK
>>84134
>DIE
They know what this means, how?
>>84198
There you go with that >meaningless
again
>>84187
No, my point was that through this experience you learn something that you can take with you to become a better person. You have to want to make that change of heart, penance or "metanoia" in the first place though. I can't do that for you. Not even God can do that part for you. But if you're suffering where you are, then maybe you need to take a second look at your life and figure out what you're supposed to be learning from the experience, and where God wants you to be.
>>84161
You said you have experienced paradox personally and gave being Christ as the central example.
>>84266
It is the result of you logic where there isn't suppose to even be suffering anymore so any suffering experience must be meaningless since Jesus dies to stop suffering.
>>84231
No, you claimed to have experienced the paradox of being christ as you spiritual awakening.
>>84276
I wasn't that guy, but participating in the paradox that comprises the central tenets of Christian theology is not the same as BEING God.
Although, hey another paradox here, the Church is both the betrothed bride of Christ, and described as the Body of Christ. It is another play on the matrimonial covenant established between Adam and Eve with the "two becoming one flesh". It is through participation in the Church, in our religious life, and in receiving the sacraments that we enter into that paradox with our own lives and are able to live it out. Resolving the two sides of the equation, if you will.
>>84077
Sounds like a category error. You need debugging.
>>84313
>since Jesus dies to stop suffering.
He did not die to stop suffering.
He died to allow us an avenue to return back to God and reconcile ourselves to Him once more.
That does not preclude suffering. If anything, it involves MORE suffering, because living up to that awesome sacrifice and living it out ourselves involves a lot of suffering on our part. Indeed, Jesus himself said that we cannot follow where he goes unless we are willing to take up our OWN crosses after him.
>>84366
>beep boop this does not conform to my hardline materialistic rationalism view of the universe
>therefore it must be wrong
>beep
Any one have any good books on Christian theology (other then the Bible itself)? I haven't realised what a fascinating topic this is
>>84134
But they didn't die. So God lied to them. What a dick.
>>84392
If everyone can follow his example why are him and Lazarus the only ones to raise back to life after days of being dead since then?
>>84161
It means they equally lack credibility, at least.
>>83948
>>84029
We're getting into existentialist territory
Kierkegaard argued with the "teleological suspension of the ethical"; in that, faith is absurd, and that is what makes faith such an unreachable goal that many reach for. He's a vehemently religious author, so his existentialist standpoint almost always start off with God and the absurdity of life and faith.
Did we come with a purpose? Maybe, we did, maybe we did not. When I was young and still actually going to Sunday school I was always taught along the lines of "God has a unique plan for you and because he wants you to spread his grace". As I grow up, I know I have not completely shaken off this influence because I am still a little bit religious but not as fanatic as a 10 year old me would be. I still believe that God has a plan for all of us, it's just that since it's unable to be perceived or understood by us we can only follow what we believe. However, you have no way of knowing what is divine and what is not, which in essence is a warped version of Kierkegaard's argument.
There's a reason why the word "faith" is almost always attached with the adjective "blind"; faith is an absurd concept, but that is why a faithful man is at the same time wise and foolish.
>>84440
Yo pick up some St. Augustine.
Confessions is required reading.
I also like Thomas Merton's writings, as he comes at things from a very Eastern spirituality direction, but some of the stuff he writes is a little controversial, theologically speaking. He still has wonderful imagery though, I recommend "The Seven Storey Mountain" which is sort of an autobiography.
>>84490
Then by that logic as a 100% man, Jesus and Lazarus couldn't have ever actually came back.
>>84232
Like you didn't do that with comics anyway.
![article-g01_400_538[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/6UGbD98.jpg "article-g01_400_538[1].jpg")
>>84510
What could possibly be God's plan for this poor soul that probably never even got the chance to be baptized?
>>83878
wew
>>84510
>However, you have no way of knowing what is divine and what is not, which in essence is a warped version of Kierkegaard's argument.
God created everything in the universe, therefore nothing happens without him ordaining it.
To imply that something happens outside of his control is to imply that God is not omnipotent.
>:There's a reason why the word "faith" is almost always attached with the adjective "blind"; faith is an absurd concept, but that is why a faithful man is at the same time wise and foolish.
I grew up in a very heavily Catholic family, went to Catholic school, and fell out of it a bit in college because I didn't have the passion for it anymore. You know what got me back into attending church and taking the sacraments seriously? Taking Religious Studies courses at the (public, state-funded) University, where I was known as "the Catholic" and was called on to defend myself in class. Started having to read up on what the Church teaches, why the Saints are important, and so on.
If someone asks me now, why I'm religious, I just give the same answer as Peter in the gospels
>"Lord, to whom else can we go?"
>>84424
Are you gonna criticize the computational metaphor for consciousness, or are you going to make silly noises?
catholic hispanic family values
they pray to Mary because if she says something in heaven they believe Jesus will more likely listen to her because she's mom from what I've been told
>>84440
City of God is pretty much required reading for understanding the middle ages - both politically and ecclesiastically. Added bonus of being written by Augustine who is always a pleasure to read.
If you want hard-analytic theology then Aquinas Summa is your place to go. Fantastic text - with City of God it still holds currency even today.
Neither of those are light reading so if you're looking for something more beginner maybe Mere Christianity by C.S. Lewis or watch some videos from Word on Fire - pretty good at making complex philosophy and theology easy to understand.
>>84510
I'm wise and foolish. A faithful man is just pathetic.
>>84620
>they pray to Mary because if she says something in heaven they believe Jesus will more likely listen to her because she's mom from what I've been told
This has precedent outside of Hispanic tradition too. When Catholic scholars point out the important of Mary as Mediatrix, they point to the Wedding of Cana where she talks Jesus into performing his first miracle.
We pray to all the saints for intercession on our behalf, but Mary, being the mother of God, has a special command of his ear for us.
>>84647
>Neither of those are light reading so if you're looking for something more beginner maybe Mere Christianity by C.S. Lewis or watch some videos from Word on Fire - pretty good at making complex philosophy and theology easy to understand.
Bishop Robert Barron (I'll never get used to that title) is a fantastic guy for explaining important theological matters using understandable examples and phrasing, I second this recommendation.
C.S Lewis (despite being an Anglican, I won't hold that against him) also has very good writings on the subject. Mere Christianity and The Screwtape Letters are his most well know, but he's written many others on various theological subjects, in addition to his Space trilogy which looks at the interesting hypothetical about how alien races would fit into God's creation and divine plan.
>>84650
>A faithful man is just pathetic
>>84586
>To imply that something happens outside of his control is to imply that God is not omnipotent.
This is a deterministic school of thought though; it's toeing the line very close to saying that free will does not exist, which I'm pretty sure is not what God has intended. If God has determined everything, then why bother with free will?
I could quote some Nietzsche about this but I'm pretty sure I'm reading him wrong completely so I will avoid going down that road (and also because most religious people I met consider him a Devil incarnate).
>>84620
>Jesus will more likely listen to her because she's mom
why did I find this so funny
>>84545
Well on /co/ at least we only got good religious discussion threads once every few weeks.
>>84650
r-rude
>>84650
>I'm wise
>ignores basic logic that something cannot come from nothing when the universe exists implies an all-powerful creator
>>84721
They must be sneaky or in cartoon threads, because I haven't seen one in like a year.
>>84567
Thought that was tomatoes on his eyes lol
>>84706
>If God has determined everything, then why bother with free will?
Best explanation I've heard for it is that since God exists outside of our perspective of time, he knows what choice we will make before we make it, and can see our lives in the sum totality of each choice we make.
>and also because most religious people I met consider him a Devil incarnate
Completely wrong, yes, introducing dangerous ideas that have led to the mass ritualized suicide of the basis of Western society's moral base, yes. But he was just a man. A very, very, very misguided man.
>>84753
There's been a few, but Jack Chick threads have a habit of getting nuked by the mods now, which has put a damper on things. Mostly they come out of Prince of Egypt threads now.
>>84763
That explanation of the divine utility of free will didn't even reference free will. How are we making a choice if we have already made every choice?
>>84350
I claim experiencing Christ, yeah. What is communion?
>>84740
They have scientifically verified that something and nothing are identical at absolute zero.
>>84753
why, boner
>>84965
This literally does not make sense in the context of the argument at all
>>84965
source?
even if it were true still doesn't explain the initial heat and momentum
>>84753
>Jesus pulls little girl's pants down
Have catholics always been pedophiles?
>>84914
Then why did you get so defensive the first time I questioned your experience of being christ?
>>85051
>pedophile
that girl is obviously of age
>>85051
Everyone was a pedophile until prohibition.
>>85164
Pedophilia =/= Ephebophilia
People being attracted exclusively or almost so to prepubescent children have almost been pariahs at best, but being attracted to pubescent individuals has generally been quite acceptable.
>>85056
That was me, different anon. Sorry, this is why it's difficult talking theology, because other anon is right, we are literally taking Jesus' body and blood in the sacrament of Eucharist, and the ther sacraments are experiences with Christ's grace as well. I thought you were coming at it in an egocentric "I am GOD" apotheosis sense.
>>85293
What about hebephilia, hmmm?
>>84801
Because you, right now, as a mortal person experiencing time from this side of eternity, are making the choice RIGHT NOW and only after you pass the point of that choice can observe its outcome from the other side looking back. God is not bound to that single fixed viewpoint in time, and in fact exists at all times in the universe, seeing that choice before we have made it, as we are making it, and after we have moved on and can look back on it.
>>85359
Yes, but by that logic you are not making the choice though, you are just sensing one iteration in predetermined outcomes and circumstances that don't matter because you basically just think all the possibilities converge and you become god after you die anyway.
>>85056
I didn't, that was someone else.
>>85371
Did you know that "person" in the English language comes from the latin "persona" which refers to the masks first used in Greek plays and adopted by thr Romans? The masks were distinct, defining specific roles for the actor. During the early Church within the Roman Empire they adopted the term to refer to the "persons" of the Trinity, Father Son and Holy Spirit. Now, this is not to say that ther is one god that simply swaps out masks depending on what he's doing at the time (that the Sabellianist heresy), but rather the persons are themselves the masks, that each person is defined by their own unique, distinctive role in the Triune Godhead.
In the same way Christians are to put on the persona of Christ, to bear that role out in the world for others to see and experience. We cannot do that on our own power, we need the grace and blessings that come from the sacraments, such as Eucharist, to have the strength, wisdom, pridence, and other fruits to commit to this mission.
So in recieveing the sacraments we become mor Christ-like, but that doesn't mean giving up our humanity. Rather, himanity was CREATED to live in union with God, to walk alongside him, in his presence, in the garden. Being called to live as Christ did is not contradictory to human nature, rather it is its FULFILLMENT.
>>85455
Then why can't you answer and why did everyone who tried to answer for you get so defensive?
>>85483
>We cannot do that on our own power
What makes you people so much more intellectually cowardly than people who suffer without needing to pretend they are wearing a Christ mask or are you saying Sacramental Christians are the only people whose suffering means anything?
>>85571
It's cowardly to admit that human beings fuck up and need help to better themselves? Really?
One way to look at the Old Testament is as a giant lesson in how you CANNOT bootstrap your way out of fallen human nature and be saved ONLY by following the law and doing good things. God lays out simple rules for the Israelites to follow and they fuck it up every. single. time. Without fail. Which is why it was nevessary for Jesus to suffer and die on our behalf.
>>85553
No, in >>85309, you distanced yourself from the previous claim of having a personal spiritual awakening through the direct experience of being christ through the sacraments and in >>85483 you kept distancing yourself going full metaphor and claiming you were just wearing a mask in hope of experiencing god in the future.
>>85644
No, anon, that's the thing with Catholic theology. The figurative metaphor is also the literal reality.
As above, so below.
>>85640
No, its cowardly to say you can't suffer without sacraments when there are billions of people out there who suffer and don't take your weirdly specific sacraments that are intriguingly profitable to a small nation state and their bankers.
What about Johan, Noah, or Job?
Are you saying every single christian church since then hasn't fucked something up and failed to be split into countless fractured systems?
>>85680
As below so above and beyond I imagine
Drawn outside the lines of reason
Push the envelope
Watch it bend
>>85680
So then you do literally believe you are Christ through metaphorical figurative reasoning?
>>85707
>What about Johan, Noah, or Job?
Harrowing of Hell
>Are you saying every single christian church since then hasn't fucked something up and failed to be split into countless fractured systems?
"For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you"
1 Corinthians 11:19
>>85707
I never said that. What I am trying to say is that now through Jesus we have an avenue of reconciliation with God that involves suffering. That wasn't open to the OT people before Jesus came and literally kicked the doors of hell off their hinges, but it's open to all of us now. And I also said that suffering plays a part in that path. But suffering happens regardless of how you choose how to cope with it.
>>85736
I believe that I am sincerely trying to get there. That is all I can claim.
>>85745
Is that is the exact theological term for old testament characters who did bootstrap their way out of fallen human nature and were retroactively saved ONLY by following the law and doing good things and specific examples of times when Israelites didn't fuck up?
How did Jesus die for our sins if he can't even prevent his modern church from lying and sinning?
>>85819
They were saved because Christ went to hell and saved them.
>>85819
He made the path available, people still have the free will to fuck it up regardless.
>>85804
The paths are all already set, there is no trying, you just have to follow the good autopilot course, since any hesitation or need for thought is obviously not divinely inspired by definition.
>>85825
>Not whom you were responding to, I'm
Shut the fuck up with this, you already decided to answer for someone else to a question that was never addressed to any of your post, so just fucking answer with your shitty logic and I can sort it out if I want or they will answer later and I will sort out their stupid bullshit.
>>85835
Did he also bring all the murderers and bad people with them?
If not, then they must have played a part in their salvation.
>>85845
Wrestling with doubt is part of that journey as well. If it was easy to do then everyone would be doing it. Like I said, all I can do is try and have faith I'll end up where God needs me to be.
>>85881
I'm deeply sorry if I offended or upset you in any way. It wasn't my intention to irritate or antagonize you.
>>85881
Anon it kind of sounds like you've already made up your mind that you're not going to believe any explanation we try to give you.
(also not the same anon you responded to there, I'm Roman Catholic, not Orthodox)
>>85836
Yes, but just because you have it doesn't mean you need to use it and the best course to heaven must be to never trust your own will and only trust intuitive divine will that should never be contemplated or questioned.
>>85902
Well, of course their faith did.
Subconscious want to fuck/marry her.
>>85934
Sounds a lot like bootstrapping their way out of their fallen human nature to me, also the harrowing doesn't even apply to Elijah since he descended from heaven to speak to Jesus before he was sacrificed we know some OT characters made it to heaven on their own accord.
>>85941
you'd better stop porn then.
>>85930
>only trust intuitive divine will that should never be contemplated or questioned.
AnonI just said that's not the case. There was a period of about six years in between graduating high school and only recently where I fell away from the church entirely. It was only last year that I came back because I decided I was fucking miserable and needed help getting my shit together. And I found it there. I don't know what else to tell you, I'm not trying to devalue other people and the shit they go through, I'm just trying to say that the Church is where I at least found some peace and a purpose. That's all I can give is my own testimony, if that's not doing it for you, then I'm sorry I don't have the answers you're looking for.
>>86003
Its because you don't try very hard and you only take the path of least resistance.
Also you are still miserable, quit lying.
>>85978
>Sounds a lot like bootstrapping their way out of their fallen human nature to me,
Well, no, or else they wouldn't have gone to hell to begin with (Hades in Orthodoxy)
> Elijah since he descended from heaven
Ah, no. Someone's spirit can be permitted to speak on earth with God's permission (the rich man who didn't pity Lazarus asks for this and is denied) from Hades or even hell, and that was the case here.
There is a similar precedent in Catholic theology. It was invoked by Shakepseare in Hamlet, where Hamlet's father suffers in Purgatory (which is a thing in Orthodoxy) during the day, but he can appear as a ghost at night.
>>86034
Okay now you're just projecting.
>>86052
Yes I am projecting the hypocritical two-faced nature of every Christian apologist onto you.
>>86051
*isn't a thing in Orthodoxy
Purgatory, I mean. Because the Orthodox Church does not believe you can pay-off sins as a debt.
>>86051
Then they wouldn't have really fallen now would they.
> Someone's spirit
Elijah's actions allowed him to enter heaven body and all.
>>86122
>Then they wouldn't have really fallen now would they.
They did fall, that's why they're in hell.
>Elijah's actions allowed him to enter heaven body and all.
In Orthodoxy, that has to do with God having plans for Elijah down the road, not Elijah getting up by his bootstraps.
Catholics are horny bastards and knocking up virgins is the kind of thing they want to hear/read about.
>>86190
I have to go, but before I do I'll add that the Orthodox Church believes Elijah will come back down and be put to death down the road.
>>86190
So its only an execution of free will when they are punished for doing bad, when they do good, its beyond their control its just God manipulating them because he has future plans?
>>86190
So, out of curiosity, how does Orthodox Christianity explain Enoch?
>>86266
>Prophet Elijah is taken to heaven alive, but the church teaching says to us, that when in the last times the violation of the law will increase and the love of many will fade, so that the manifestation of people’s zeal about God will exhaust, then will appear the two witnesses, the two olives, two candlesticks (Rev. 11:3-4), which will testify to the divine truth among weakly-believing mankind, putting fresh heart into the minor flock of those, who stayed faithful up to the end, embarrassing and exposing many in number, impudently triumphing enemies of God. On the Divine permission they — these two candlesticks — will be killed by Antichrist and resurrect on the third day. The church teaching says that these two candlesticks-witnesses will be saints Enoch and Elijah, those righteous men of the Old Testament, who did not face death, precisely to fulfill the act of God at the end of ages, when human forces will be exhausted.
>>86288
Okay, so same deal, got it.
>be me
>meet a qt girl, says she's a virgin
>few months later
>notice she's got a big belly
>she's pregnant
>I didn't fuck her
>shamfur_dispray.jpg
>still kinda like her
>tell everyone she's still a virgin and was impregnated by god
>2000 years later
>people still believe this
>mfw
>>86288
So Enoch and Elijah are the only two OT characters who you think earned their way to heaven before Jesus could harrow them from hell?
>>86113
Purgation is a thing in Orthodoxy
>>86373
They didn't earn it, they are there because they have to be back before Judgement Day in physical form and then be martyrs. The reason they are in heaven is because it wouldn't be practical to have them live on earth all the way up until that point.
>>86773
Okay, but Noah earned it. He "found grace in the eyes of the LORD" right?
>>86497
Not remotely the way it is in Catholicism. It's not about tit-for-tat. Fasting is the main method of physical purgation, prayer is the main part of spiritual purgation, and both are only efficacious when combined with living the Gospel, but these are about cleaning your glasses, so to speak, as opposed to enduring suffering. Suffering can be part of God's way of giving you purgation, but where it is, it has nothing to do with "paying off" sins, it has to do with healing you.
>>86785
>grace
>earned
U wot m8?
>>86773
So there was no specific reason he rewarded them, he just picked some random assholes with a decent memory?
It was practical to promise Simeon he would live to see the messiah, why all of a sudden is it not practical and why is god suddenly limited by practicalities?
>>86890
He picked them for a reason, but we don't know the logic behind God's plan here necessarily. He chose Paul to play a major role in his ministry, and it clearly wasn't as some sort of "reward" for Paul's prior deed.
>It was practical to promise Simeon he would live to see the messiah, why all of a sudden is it not practical and why is god suddenly limited by practicalities?
He's not, but humans are, and living that long, someone would be withered to the point they couldn't move at all.
>>87005
So, Elijah and Enoch are not human or are you saying they will return unable to move because god is gestating literal thousand year old decaying zombies to release to the antichrist, unless they could just be preserved, so why couldn't they just be preserved in some random cave with running water and edible fungus in some shithole country for thousands of years?
>>87089
Because that's what God decided to do. Are you going to tell him that he's wrong?
>>81763
Because four sided God.
Also you need a feminine aspect.
>>89535
Nobody was talking about god making decisions thus requiring free will, it was passed off as the only practical solution when there are giant underground lakes that can be preserved as is for over a billion years.
If Mary and Jesus's brothers [spoiler]yes he had brothers[/spoiler] were such saints, why were they embarrassed of Jesus's sermons and wanted him to shut up?
Literally zero mention of the fact the Romans co-opted pagan things including virgin goddess worship. See Diana, Vesta etc. Greeks and Romans were always obsessed with virgin goddesses
because she is the - queen of heaven - like she always was is and will be, christianity or no christianity, she just changes her outfit
>>81763
She did. The Church Fathers such as Irenaeus referred to her as the "New Eve" paralleling from the OT. With the typological method of interpretation used by the Early Church, the major role of Mary becomes apparent and clear. This is why Marian devotion already emerged during the early stages of Christianity. The Odes of Solomon and Protoevangelium are two documents that show that the Early Christians revere Mary. This is the primitive version of the current Marian Devotion we see in Catholicism and Orthodoxy today.
>>81763
south american here and once my teacher touched this topic and stated that many cultures such as the ones in Mexico and Peru began
mixing the catholic teaching of saints with their
own female goddesses
Because this seemed to make conversion
better the Spanish adopted these as virgins etc
i am just repeating what he said though i may be totally wrong
>>90233
https://youtu.be/J9n3vbSTu3Q
>>81896
/thread
It was just marketing for pagans
>>81763
Does anyone have that one comic where God uses hymen-repairing eye lasers to make Mary a virgin?
>>84134
They had no way to understand what he meant by that until they got the knowledge from the fruit.
>>81763
She represents all the good and kindness a mother can provide, rather than the stern judgements of a father. Mexicans like me are drawn to that shit, as we're still very much a patriarchal society, that ironically elevates the status of motherhood to near holiness.
It's fucking weird dog.
>>92847
Virginity isn't defined by your hymen in Christian theology. If you get raped, for instance, it doesn't deprive you of your virginity.
