Objectively the greatest strategist of all times?
>>60849
No. He was the poor man's Genghis Khan and Genghis was a once in a generation genius.
>>60891
Fagus Kahn would have gotten btfo by Alexander with period implements. He would have probably gotten btfo even without period implements, because after one skirmish Alexander would have implemented saddles and the like
He was a total pussy. Never personally fought in any of his battles. Ran over tiny villages and butchered unarmed peasants
>>60891
>Genghis Khan
>Conquered vast amount of shithole wastelands noone wanted anyway and a Chinese Empire suffering from internal crisis
>Napoleon
>Conquered almost entire continental Europe in the times when nationalism actually existed
If anything, that would be opposite.
>>60983
>Napoleon
>Gets wrekt by farmers after betraying an ally AND ends up freezing his army in russia at the same time
>>60891
Genghis Khan is overrated as fuck
His successors did all the heavy lifting of China, Russia, Iran, and the Abbasids
>>60849
Carl von Clausewitz
>>61014
>You are a bad leader because you were unlucky with the weather
Happens to everyone.
![220px-이순신[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/DNu8o9x.jpg "220px-이순신[1].jpg")
>>60849
Wrong
He lost the war.
Greatest tactician maybe.
Hannibal was the greatest. Even Napoleon owed a big debt to Hannibal's strategies
>>61416
Napoleons strategy depended on attacking and seizing his rivals capital-so he could negotiate from a position of strength.
Considering Hannibal never captured Rome(or any major Roman town) I fail to see the influence.
>>61112
>Russian winter
>unlucky
wat
1.alexander
2Napoleon
3.Caesar
4.Hannibal
5.Timur
6.Subutai
7.Frederick The Great
8.Prince Eugene of Savoy
9.Von Manstein
10. Patton
>>60849
He would have got wrecked by Frederick .
>>61668
I agree I think I remember reading somewhere when Napoleon advanced through Prussia he made a stop at old fritz's tomb said something along the lines of 'if this man was alive we would not have gotten this far'.
>>61584
You are not responsible for the weather conditions, that's what I've meant.
The fact that Napoleon lost his army due to harsh winter doesn't prove that he was a bad strategist.
>>61099
Carl von Clausewitz was more of a theorist. He mostly studied Napoleon and Frederick the Great and analytically dealt with them with the mindset of a modern European scholar. However, he himself did not develop anything in that regard.
Clausewitz was influential and incredibly important to military and political science, but not so much to warfare itself.
>>61738
Yes it does.
What you are thinking of is tactition.
Deciding to march through Russia at that time of year is a strategic mistake.
>>61779
He was kind of out of options, prolonging the attack on Russia would result in strengthening of Coalition.
>>60849
Sun Tzu
>>61014
Napoleon lost the majority of his amry through the Russian summer. You're believing his own propaganda.
>>61814
In the grand scheme of things he didn't really have a choice but he made blunder after blunder in the actual execution. I know, hindsight is easy and all, but still. He shot himself in the foot from the outset by taking that much cavalry and untempered troops and that's just to start with.
>>61814
you have no idea what you are talking about, but ok.
reminder that when Napoleon invaded Russia there was no coalition, and the 6th coalition was only bought together to take advantage of his weakness.
Just dropping by to point out Napoleon had already began his retreat before the first snow had fallen
Winter did not make him retreat
He's still the greatest person in history imo
>>61640
Timur, Subatai and Patton are meme generals
>>61839
The fact of the matter is that the Russian winter turned an inconclusive set of engagements in which both claimed victory into an unmitigated French disaster.
>>61849
It would have been formed, and you know it.
Napoleon and his progressive empire was a threat to every major European power, UK and Russia would attepmt destroying it again sooner or later.
>>61891
Maybe it would have been formed, I can't be bothered to argue that. But at the time both Prussia and Austria were on the French side by force, and there was no chance they could change that any time soon.
His own original plan was a multi year invasion to ensure his army was well supplied on its invasion so deep into territory which was hostile both in its winter and militarily.
You make it sound like if he didn't invade exactly when he did he would have been ruined. I'd take my chances with Napoleon fighting a defensive war against recently weak Prussia and Austria combined with a lumbering Russia commanded by the good defensively but not much offensively minded Kutusov on ground that he controlled.
He got greedy and went for strategic goals in months that he had planned to take in years, and all because he wanted to force Russia to conform to his Continental System.
>>61959
This desu senpai.
Napoleon after 1811 was kinda bad with splashes of brilliance
>>61293
This
seriously why even try and take out russia since you wont be able to do it before winter strikes
and you know what winter in russia means
>>60849
Suvorov.
>>61640
Where is Scipio m8? He shit all over Hannibal.
>>61668
He was a hack who inherited a great military from his father. He ran away at his first battle when the Austrians broke through the flank and his infantry went on to win the battle without him.
>>62320
>Suvorov
He might have been a good strategist, but he was also a war criminal son of a bitch.
Vide massacre of Praga.
>>62265
Yes but napoleon wasn't foreign to travelling through terrible conditions and still coming out victorious, he did it in the alps, much less dangerously so naturally and got lucky with the weather and in Egypt tugging around cannons in the sand. They poisoned the water and burnt the land and then he ends up getting to the russian capital and they're all gone if i'm not mistaken.
You can never not account on how stubborn and ruthless ruskies are.
>>62414
>Poles
Didn't Suvorov order them not to enter the town though?
>>60849
More modern, but one of the best. This man was behind the concept of "Blitzkrieg" in practice
Eastern Front outcome would have probably looked a bit brighter for the Nazis only if Hitler had given Manstein full control. Instead, Manstein had to adapt himself to almost impossible and strategically inept decisions to please the Führer. In 1944 he was dismissed for his ongoing disagreements with Hitler on the conduct of the war.
>Napoleon a retard because Russian winter
Is this /int/ or /his/ ?
Napoleon campaign was perfectly prepared and
strategically logical.
As usual Napoleon planned a quick and brutal campaign. He wanted to destroy Russian army in two or three battle then take Moscow and other main west Russia cities to force Alexandre I to negotiate.
But Alexandre didn't acted "logical". He broken the rule of war by refusing any fight against the Grande Armée and applied a permanent retreat and scorched earth political. Alexandre was truly determined and say something like if Napoleon wanted him, he should follow him until the Pacific ocean.
The consequence of this politic was the destruction of the Grande Armée. Napoleon expected to survive by his logistic supply but also with foods he would find in Russia so the lack of foods combined with the canicular summer followed by the terrible winter than Napoleon didn't expected to have to face don't let a single chance to men.
Now stop speaking about thing you didn't know and go back to /int/ or go read some books.
>>62491
>Didn't Suvorov order them not to enter the town
You mean the town they were currently defending?
>>62562
Hmmm that sounds strangely familiar.
>>60891
Gengis doesn't count anyway, he had the nomad superpower.
Now conquer an empire from a sedentary country, that's some fucking feat.
>>62562
>tells us we don't know what we are talking about
>doesn't realize that the invasion of Russia was planned for 1813 not 1812
The 1812 invasion was not 'perfectly prepared' go read a book.
He revolutionized the warfare at the time, he was pretty badass.
>>61293
What matters isn't the destination, it's the journey senpai.
Besides he accomplished his goal to spread the enlightenment values.
>>62653
>Swede
discarded
>>62690
butthurt Dane detected
>>60849
Like ww2 germany I would say. He was incredibly good at tactics and military level of strategy but not good enough at the diplomatic level.
>>62704
nothing to be butthurt about
>>62705
Ah yes, the famous strategist germany.
>>62705
The difference is, Imperial France had an actual military expert in charge, while in case of 3rd Reich it was populist politician.
>>62562
Most of the French casualties were actually due to disease and starvation not the cold. This meme needs to die.
>>60849
>the greatest strategist of all times
probably
>>61015
>Uniting all the warring tribes in the largely inhospitable Mongolian steppes
>Not heavy lifting
>>60927
>horse archers versus tight-knit phalanx
>>62722
:^)
>>62794
all is well that turns out well :D
>>62816
What the fuck is that.
>>62816
We'll just send all of them to Halland and Skåne.
>>62760
>Most of the French casualties were actually due to disease and starvation not the cold.
That's exactly I said.
>the lack of foods combined with the canicular summer followed by the terrible winter
>>62760
True, but actually they got sick due to cold so I could say it's the same thing but I get your point
>>60927
>Knowing literally nothing about Genghis or the Mongols.
>>62833
It's not a personal attack on yourself, I'm just fed up with this meme regurgitation going on.
>>62828
Some kids quiz show
average swede kid is participating in it
>>62832
right right
>>62816
Fucking lost it at the black girl. I new it was coming but it still got me.
>>62833
>The campaign was perfectly prepared
>lack of foods caused most deaths
do you know how preparing a campaign works?
>>60849
according to the big man himself
Gustavus Adolphus, Turenne, Frederick the Great, Alexander, Hannibal and Caesar
>>62816
SWEDEN YES
W
E
D
E
N
Y
E
S
>>62845
Not particularly. They largely got sick because there were insufficient provisions and had to resort to the consumption of expired food or stale water(particularly in the rearguard units).
Genghis did personally fight in battles. His youth was a series of battles against rival tribes and traitors, and he's alleged to have died from a arrow wound he recieved while fighting the Jin.
Cromwell built the finest army in Europe used it to great effect and this army has become the basis for almost every modern army in the world.
>>60849
He was good, but not the best desu. Alexander the Great is my personal number one.
>>62951
men för helvete
>>62816
Sweden is fucking lost
![John-R-Boyd-2S[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/ZlESx4L.jpg "John-R-Boyd-2S[1].jpg")
>>61099
Clausewitz has no strategic accomplishments worth speaking of.
His great contribution to military thought, the Center of Gravity, has been abandoned by western military thought (and was never picked up outside the west).
His theories ssssorta worked for their era, but didn't stand the test of time.
I could point to John Boyd and be closer to the truth. You don't even know who the fuck that is.
Poor Pyrrhus is always forgotten.
>frederick the great
He wasn't a very good general, his brother Henry was a lot better. Frederick was a great warlord.
>>62705
Don't know if he could have done much better in diplomatics.
He could have made any concessions he wanted. He would never had gotten UK/Russia/Austria or Prussia on his side. They were ideological enemies like the USA and the soviet Union.
He should have avoided the mess in Iberia, and putting his brother on the spanish throne. Instead he should have kept his other brother in the netherlands instead of annexing. He admitted in his memoirs These Things as his biggest mistakes.
Maybe he should have created some allies, like an Italian Nation or a big Poland, like he tried.
Anyway even if many Things turned out to be the wrong decision, he clearly wasn't a Retard.
Another important reason why he wasn't as superior after 1811 was that his enemies had learned and actually stopped to put their aristrocratic Cousins in Charge of enourmous armies instead of a competent pleb guy
who deserved it
>>62816
cringed laughed cringed
>>62956
the new model army was quite nice I admit, but I've been told by English Civil War re-enactors who I go to uni with that a lot of that tactical doctrines and organisation was inspired by the Dutch and the Swedish who were much more organised in fighting modern land wars than the English at that period.
>>63028
This.
Plus he continuously recycled his Oblique order meme tactic. What did he think would've happened?
What do you think would happen if Naopleon actually conquered Russia?
Would he recreate the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth? Would the Empire endure? How would European history change?
Don't mind me just posting the single greatest naval commander of all time. Special mention for Collingwood.
>>62951
>Allahu ackbar
Holy shit, I cannot actually comprehend that Sweden is this keked. What happened to the Sweden of Carolus Rex?
>>63186
>the single greatest naval commander of all time.
and an absolute lad as well.
>>63207
>What happened to the Sweden of Carolus Rex?
can we stop pretending that we don't know
>>63136
well Napoleon might have been able to defeat the Russians in western Russia, but that's quite a lot of ground to hold controlling all that territory would have been a logistical nightmare and the odds that Russian guerrillas would make holding the countryside and roads a bit of a problem. Finding the men to do it as well would be a bit of a problem as a good chunk of Napoleon's forces were not even French some being poles or Prussians or other Germans and so with the hostilities with Russia concluded odds are there'd very much like to go home back to their families.
>>63225
>Nelson told him that he was sure to die, and begged him to pass his possessions to Emma. With Nelson at this point were the chaplain Alexander Scott, the purser Walter Burke, Nelson's steward, Chevalier, and Beatty. Nelson, fearing that a gale was blowing up, instructed Hardy to be sure to anchor. After reminding him to "take care of poor Lady Hamilton", Nelson said "Kiss me, Hardy". Beatty recorded that Hardy knelt and kissed Nelson on the cheek. He then stood for a minute or two before kissing him on the forehead. Nelson asked, "Who is that?", and on hearing that it was Hardy, he replied "God bless you, Hardy." By now very weak, Nelson continued to murmur instructions to Burke and Scott, "fan, fan … rub, rub … drink, drink." Beatty heard Nelson murmur, "Thank God I have done my duty", and when he returned, Nelson's voice had faded and his pulse was very weak. He looked up as Beatty took his pulse, then closed his eyes. Scott, who remained by Nelson as he died, recorded his last words as "God and my country"
;__;
>no one has mentioned Sun Tzu yet
>>63210
Except that that didn't work and there was no backup.
Even if the plan worked in theory, the very fac that it went to shit means it really wasnt a 'perfectly' planned endeavor.
>but if everything had happened as Napoleon expected it to it would have worked!
this doesn't make it a good plan.
>>63289
>Sun Tzu never won a war
>>63237
How would history have changed if the Swedish Empire never collapsed? Would it be the New Pakistan it is today?
>>63606
What is the point of making such questions?
The closest thing to stopping what is happening today is clear. But I dare not to tell.
>>61839
You're an uneducated fag
He started his invasion in summer but the Russian army kept retreating while destroying their own city instead of fighting him
When they arrived near Moscow, the Russians finally decided to fight but got rekt and burned Moscow before retreating even further
Napoleon knew he couldn't chase them forever so he settled in Moscow for a few months hoping the Russians would surrender, but they didn't
Threatened by starvation, Napoleon was forced to start living Russia at the beginning of winter, but he had waited a bit too long and winter combined with starvation decimated his army on the way back
>>63033
Well, at one point he did get Russia, at that time ruled by Pavel I, at his side.
Too bad Pavel I shortly got assasinated.
>>64598
>the Russians finally decided to fight but got rekt
um
Borodino is widely regarded as one of Napoleons least decisive victories...
>>64687
Still resulted in the Russians losing the field and running away giving up Moscow
It's what happened the months after Borodino that made it undecisive, not the battle itself
>>64722
Uhh no.
If an army is still strong enough to make an organised retreat and remain a threat to the other army, it wasn't decisively defeated.
The Russians were defeated, and maybe if the Guard had been committed it could have been decisive, but they certainly didn't get 'rekt'
>>60849
sun tzu?
he sure did write a book that pretty much every successful strategist read afterwards.
>>62760
The important things is that these were non-combar death and that Russians behaved like fags
It doesnt matters what the meme is as long as the Russians arent attributed any glory
>>61867
Subutai conquered like 40 nations dude! When he died the big mongol conquests stopped.
>>60849
No otherwise he would never had lost.
Napoleon is without a doubt the most impressive loser in history however.
>>61738
The Mongols managed to conquer russia in winter and 600 years before napoleon? Why couldn't napoleon do the same?
![380323[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/KtSM5ni.jpg "380323[1].jpg")
>crtl+f
>Helmuth
>Moltke
>no results in both cases
Come on guys.
>>60849
Horatio Nelson best naval strategist. Won numerous victories and tactical victories until his death at the battle of Trafalgar, the greatest BTFO the seas have ever seen.
