I've wanted to ask this question for a while, but I find it hard to phrase in a delicate way that doesn't have everyone telling me to get back to /pol/.
Is there any credence to the recent claims that Egyptians used to be black? It seems kind of anachronistic to me to try and apply blackness to a considerably well documented ancient race.
No
The modern Egyptians are the same people for the most part as the ancient ones. There were probably some black people in Egypt, but nowhere near a majority and there were some black pharaohs, but that's it.
![2021987_1200_675[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/ta6bdVX.jpg "2021987_1200_675[1].jpg")
I'm no historian but I've never understood why people didn't thought they where black to begin with. You DO know where Egypt is located, right?
Pic related is a modern day picture from an Egyptian man.
>Ancient Egyptian 'black' thread
Guaranteed replied as well as cherry picked images. This thread will soon be a chockablock of anecdotal evidence and morons giving their own POV to the Nile civilization.
Being honest: it doesn't take a moron to see the Ancient Egyptians were by no means a populace purely or even overwhelmingly (80%+) Sub-Saharan African in terms of their DNA.
>>384684
>thinking Africa=black
North Africa has histrically been inhabited by Semitic and Berber people
>>384684
And here is a Copt, a direct descendant of the ancient Egyptians.
People often say the Egyptians of today are the same as old and while that is in fact true its important to note that the composition has in fact changed.
Egyptian populations were based originally in the Upper Nile. There is absolutely no doubting that the oldest records of human habitation and the first massive settlements and megalithic structures are in and around the border of Egypt and Sudan.
As time has gon e on different groups have swamped out other groups genetically and the Nubian/Egyptian population many times have blended into one another but generally
speaking there is a continuum from South Sudan to the Levantine genetically.
It's not an answer anyone who is an extremist likes but its the reality.
It depends on what you call black. This is basically what they looked like; https://www.google.ie/search?q=luxor+people&tbm=isch though they were/are lighter to the north (https://www.google.ie/search?q=cairo+people&tbm=isch) and darker to the south (https://www.google.ie/search?q=aswan+people&tbm=isch).
At one point Nubians (pic related) also ruled for a while.
>>384638
Egyptians were a multi-"racial" society.
>>384728
North African was never Semitic and Berbers themselves are the result of ancient mixing. Light Skin is only the result of Neolithic admixture, its new in North Africa.
>>384749
Thanks Ireland anon :3
>>384638
Either you are a /pol/tard dressing up your KANGZ thread with trappings of innocence, or a retard that has confused /pol/lacks shitting up threads with spammed screengrabs of black twitter and the very occasional radical black academic speaking outside of their field for an accepted historiological school of thought.
Either way you are a stupid cunt.
They literally drew pictures of themselves, and they have left behind colored statues of themselves. Genetic studies have proved that the people that now inhabit North Africa are historically the ones most similar to the ancients. The Phoenicians were Caucasian, the ancient Egyptians were Caucasian, the Berbers were Caucasian.
Note, Caucasian does not mean "white". While many of them have white skin it's usually pretty tan.
Copts are most genetically similar to Ancient Egyptians. There were a few Nubian dynasties, but these were the exception.
desu senpai niggers just don't really have a lot to be proud of in their history so they have to try to steal others'. I've been to Egypt several times, known many Egyptian people, and had the chance to speak to an Egyptian professor of history. Not one of them ever gave even a passing thought to the WE WUZ KINGZ theory
>>384773
As a Ethiopian who's Caucasian, that does not answer the question of race at all.
>>384791
Ethiopians are 40-60% Caucasian (West Asian) on average.
>>384773
Another note, the Egyptians in the lower part of Egypt were most likely much closer to what we would call "black." But the ones inhabiting the area near the Mediterranean would be like most Mediterranean races: Semitic and Caucasian races
>>384797
No we aren't
http://journals.plos.org/plosgenetics/article?id=10.1371/journal.pgen.1004393
>>384773
>Genetic studies have proved that the people that now inhabit North Africa are historically the ones most similar to the ancients.
I honestly wonder why are so many shocked by this. Ass huge migrations were proven to be horseshit by actual genetic research that shows most populations in the world are more or less the same since the neolithic.
>>384638
No.
Very few of what are considered "black" people were located outside of Sub saharan Africa. The one exception were the Nubian people of North Sudan and Southern Egypt area.
They did rule for a little while but they were not Egyptians. Egyptians looked not too different from what you currently find in Egypt shockingly enough.
>>384804
What am I even looking at here? You just linked a random journal to me that is loaded with textual.
Horn Africans have significant West Asian ancestry, that's why a typical Habesha look like a typical mulatta.
>>384791
Many Ethiopians are Caucasian. pic related
This does not mean that Ancient Egyptians were black. Ethnicity =/= race. And as I said, genetic studies have linked the Ancient Egyptians more closely to modern day Copts than to sub-Saharan blacks.
Again, this isn't to say that many of the people in the south of the Ancient Egyptian kingdoms were not very dark skinned, but they aren't generally the ones that come to mind when we think of the pharaohs.
>>384818
No we don't, read the whole study. Recent admixture events are not based on reality. No massive wave of Eurasians ever immigrated to Ethiopian, we are largely the result of an ancient back crossing of significant antiquity.
It's stupid to say otherwise given archeological evidence and this corroborating genetic research.
>>384638
A few things to consider.
Egypt has always had a very sizable population due to it being graced with the nile river system. Genetic composition of large populations change at a much slower rate than small ones, and genetic analysis of the Egyptian population compared with that of mummies which have been unearthed are pretty much the same: a large admixture of Maghreb (thats North African, so think like morroco, algeria, libya, etc) and Semitic with a small but noticeable amount of East-African ancestry. So the Egyptians of today look pretty much the same as they did during antiquity. It should be noted to that, phenotypically, there is a difference between someone who is mostly east african than someone who is west african.
Egypt's history is incredibly ancient, so a lot happened. The most common evidence I hear of a black egypt was there being black Pharaohs on the throne. This is most likely true, but there have also been greeks, turkmen (the mamluks), and ethnic groups which have been Pharaoh at some point in egyptian history, so it takes away from that argument unless you want to argue that egypt were greek which is stupid.
Also, afro-centric history is not at all taken seriously since it has almost nothing to do with actual historical fact-finding, and everything to do with historic revisionism to push an agenda. People who believe in an afro-centric egypt are stupid. .
>>384810
It tend to vary depending on the area. Settled agricultural areas like Egypt tend to stay the same, since invaders are always hugely outnumbered by natives, but sparsely settled or pastoral areas tend to change a lot more. Places like Central Asia tend to see populations change over time, so there were once whites in Xinjiang and now there are Asians in Kalmykia.
>>384822
Sub-Saharan Africans are an offshoot of East Africans, genetic drift will off course have them cluster closer together but that does not in fact mean we in East Africa are any more or less African or "Black" given that Africa is the most genetically diverse continent on earth there are many different kinds of black.
>>384830
>no we don't
Are you some Afrocentric Ethiopian? I'm Somalian myself and I hate nappy-headed jareer adoons.
You denying the West Asian ancestry of the people of the Horn is laughable. I look like an Indian.
ptolomeic dynasty and later: closely related to greeks and Anatolians and other europoid people
Most other dynasties: more closely related to the people currently living in sudan, Ethiopia and Eritrea.
West Africans acting like they're related to Egyptians are the biggest joke of all.
>>384843
It's a back crossing of people into the continent before the Neolithic revolution. There is no archeological evidence showing a massive displacement of natives by western Eurasians into Somalia and I doubt you're Somali at all.
>>384832
I am the same guy who wrote this.
And the last ting to consider is a definition of being "Black".
If we go by what people in sub-sahara africa use to describe someone as "black", then the egyptians definitely were not. If you go by the one drop rule, then by technicality, yes.
>>384850
>i doubt you're Somali at all
I never said there was a displacement of natives of the Horn by West Asians.
However, we have West Asian admixture, significantly. The genesis of this ancestry is debatable, but it exists and it is significant.
>>384878
It's not Eurasian.
All the old tests did was compare us with Yoruba + Arabs and it showed we were in the middle.
That however doesn't mean we are half Arab and half Yoruba.
We are mostly a native composition of Ethio-Somali and Ethiopic as shown in the data.
>>384773
>just don't really have a lot to be proud of in their history
Mali, Songhai, Ghana, Benin, Great Zimbabwe
It's ignorance of actual African civilizations that's the problem.
>>384638
Yes Egypt was a black nation then a roman nation now it's a Arab Muslim nation
>>384684
Most Afrocentric revisionist historians completely ignore and disregard the fact the entirety of Northern Africa has always been more culturally, racially, and linguistically grouped with Southern Europe and the Near East.
>>385787
Culturally and linguistically its African, genetically its African.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21082907
Just looking at the rock art of North Africa the figures are dark skin with Afros until relatively recently.
To be honest I think it's near impossible to tell what ancient Egyptians looked like, they might have been black but they might not have been, who really cares?
>>385832
I'm pretty certain speaking Semitic and Indo-European tongues and being colonized by Phoencians, Romans, Greeks, and Vandals as well as Berbers themselves and the existence of Egyptians in general point closer to Middle Easterners and Southern Europe then Sub-Saharan Africans.
>rock relief art
That can be a depiction of a sub-Saharan Africans that culture interacted with. You know, like how the Persians at Parsagrade and Persepolis have relief art of Nubians paying tribute.
>>385863
That was a blip in time, we also know through Greek and Roman sources of Blacks in and around the coast as well as inland. The Arabs referred to both black and formerly black groups and we can see now with genetics that the oldest root in all of North Africa comes from sub sahara Africa.
All the art of the period is of these people and no one else. It's not merely a depiction others.
>>384638
there is no more credence to saying egyptians used to be black than there is to saying they used to be white.
It is a.) most likely untrue, and b.) beside the point
>>385787
>Afrocentric revisionist historians
I keep hearing about them on /his/ but never mentioned by name.
>>385832
>implying only subsaharan Africans have afros
>>384728
>>thinking Africa=black
this
this is what normalfags actually believe desu
>>385898
http://www.realhistoryww.com/
>>385917
Not that anon, but this is the site the pic is from
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tassili_n%27Ajjer
>The range is also noted for its prehistoric rock art and other ancient archaeological sites, dating from the Neolithic era when the local climate was less dry, savannah rather than desert.
>>384832
This. I heard somewhere that some unearthed pharaohs were genetically traced back to Europe according to haplotype, and a genetic reconstruction showed that Ramses had red hair. Again, this is just speculation from a board that I don't remember.
>>385917
Clearly with the evidence of sub-saharan L mtdna being the oldest marker in the whole of North Africa along with both self made images for near three thousands years being dark skin and afroed that there is in fact a fundamental black presence in North Africa. A different kind of black maybe, but still black.
>>385925
As an Ethiopian I have to say that for much of the Ancient World being Aethiop and being African were one in the same.
Regardless though, Africa has always been inhabited by a myriad of people who would like Somali and Habesha be considered black.
It's fact, genetics is proving that quite clearly.
>>385934
Yep 9k bp to about 6kbp
t. Alberto Barbosa
>>385942
There is only one European originated Y marker and its I1. He was not that and secondly the embalming process chemically alters hair color.
>>385928
>historian
note the word
it does not mean
>schizophrenic ramblings of a lunatic fringe
>>385975
>It's like those people who believe Nordics did everything from Greece to South America and no other group did anything except be their slaves.
So retards on the fringe that aren't taken seriously at all.
is it only /pol/tards that legitimise their brand of shitposting by referencing nutters like this
>>385928 ?
I don't see Nordicists conflated with any sort of contemporary academic norm.
>>386033
Negrocentrics believe the Forest Negro is the wellspring of all civilization, even though that term was created by racists long ago.
Nordicists like Negrocentrics have no academic pull, Afrocentricism is a school of thought that is less WE WUZ KANGZ and more Africans were the ones who built the empires of Africa. Not denying cultural exchange, but not using that to downplay native Africans in all their variety.
Why do ya evil whiteys keep denying our superior culture ? lemme tell ya, even based genghis khan wuz black too
>>386079
See, this iaban example of Negrocentricism.
An Afrocentric academic would talk about the dynamics of trade and contact between Africans and Chinese.
>>384638
The Ptolemys certainly weren't. They were just Macedonians.
>>386052
So correct me if I'm wrong: Afrocentrism is just like anti-Eurocentrism in that anti-Eurocentrism is just about thinking about world systems and comparisons between European and other contemporary empires, but the black kekoldry obsessives from /pol/ make up their own definition about rewriting history to favour non-Europeans as a vehicle to shit up historiography threads. Similarly Afrocentrism, basically just history that focuses on African cultures, is conflated with Negrocentrism, which has no purchase outside of hip-hop and twitter and certainly isn't considered seriously in academia, for the purposes of endlessly spamming WE WAZ KANGZ and KEK like the martians from Sesame Street.
>>386203
Correct.
Though even on twitter they are made fun of actively.
>>386079
Holy shit a WE WUZ KHANS N SHEET moment
>>384638
In egypt there were what they called nubians.
There were some nubian pharoahs.
But not all of them either.
>>384638
Well if the woman on the left is supposed to be Cleopatra, that's certainly bullshit. She was part of the Ptolemaic dynasty, a family of Greeks installed after Alexander the Great conquered Egypt. She was Greek.
That doesn't mean there weren't black rulers and subjects over the 3000 years of the Egyptian Empires existence, though.
here is an greek vase showing hercules on one side, and an egyptian priest on the other. both black men, with hercules being a lighter skinned black.
>>386809
>Right side
>Black
>>384638
the 22nd dynasty (I think) was founded by Kushite invaders from the south, they were pretty much black african
>>386816
crackas don't have big round afros like that senpai
>>386831
>>386837
do these men look white to you? egyptian on the left.
it does not matter
it has no effect on our knowledge about their culture and history
why would you want to discuss if they were pink or green or black?
they were probably not pale as they lived in a desert along with nubians and various other ethnic groups
>>386848
This desu.
If they were caucasian, that doesn't change a thing for contemporary caucasians. If they were black, that doesn't change a thing for contemporary blacks.
>>386964
Who I am and where I came from has fuck all to do with ancient egypt, for literally everyone on the planet, including actual egyptians. My identity will be largely shaped by events of the last 200 years, anything before that is interesting precisely because it is alien.
>>386984
Well that's you, for some people the past 400 years although shaping them hasn't fed their understanding of self. Even then though, we traveled far in Africa and influenced one another. I don't get salty when some Peul or African American wants to learn about Ethiopian culture its understandable just as I can understanbaly want to know about Nilo Saharan and Nilotic influences that are in me beyond the days of Afro-Asiatic expansion.
>>384638
no, its bullshit, the term does not mean what it would actualy mean, its not a applicable term, no one was 'black' even nubians, who were definitely dark skinned and distinctly african, werent realy 'black' cauze 'black' is a american term describing a population of former slaves still living on the continent, and these originating mostly from south-west subsaharan africa, places like benin/siera leone, having nothing whatsoever ever to do with the nile region
considering egipt, or wathever it was called, lasted 4000 years or more, that there were many other cultures around it all this time, that it got conquered several times and conquered its soroundings many times in turn, and that its a culture placed in nortern fucking africa, to argue about the level of melanin in the average member of the population over thousands of years is retarded as all fuck
>>384638
>>387005
Look, there are no influences from ancient egypt 'in' anyone, or aleast nothayone would know of. Trying to give your existence meaning trough anciet history is like writing a fanfic origin story for yourself, it just betrays weakness and insecurity.
>>387029
Aethiop is a term, it meant burnt face or black. The use of color terminology to denote race is quite old so saying black is a term only used in The Americas is quite stupid.
>>387053
There are direct connections of Egypt and Nubia found in my nation, its undeniable. The notion of nationstate is illusionary but culture and cultural exchange is very real.
>>386964
>muh heritage
i came from the steppes and i couldnt care less if we were black as coffee or pale as snow
>>387055
>Argument from etymology
Seriously?
>>387060
>There are direct connections of Egypt and Nubia found in my nation
I'm guessing you're sudanese, what kind of connections are we talking about? Have any egytian traditions or cultural practices survived? That would actually be amazing.
What do you consider black? A lot of people have ruled Egypt.
>>387065
Well good for you, some of us have cultures that care greatly about the origins of our culture and wish to maintain as much accuracy as possible.
What do you know we live in a world in which we place importance on different things
>>387079
I'm an Ethiopian Jew, Lake Tana is a stone throw away from Sudan.
>>387065
Sure, sure, because steppe people destroyed everyone. Us "inferior" folks need rankings.
>>387090
>I'm an Ethiopian Jew, Lake Tana is a stone throw away from Sudan
Wait, are you the same guy that posted his hanuka candle in another thread?
Also, again, what is the exact connection to ancient egypt? Also, don't you already have an incredibly old foundation for your identity in judaism?
>>387091
dem hips
imagine slammin dat boipucci
>>387099
Our Judaism comes from Egypt/Nubia.
The Jews of Elephantine, read about them.
>>387101
>Being a fag
>Ever
>>387108
Sounds like fun tbqh
>>387107
Ok, but that doesn't make the colour of their skin revelevant, does it? If you look at jewish minorities around the world they seem to have a strong tendency to look almost exactly like the surrounding majority, because they have intermarried with the locals for thousands of years. So the thing that really does survive are not some ethnic/racial traits, but rather the cultural and religious traditions, that judaism is btter at preserving than any other faith or culture, for some reason.
>>387126
Cant fool me Sweden
>Egyptians.
>Blacks.
Sheeeit mongs, because ONE dinasty of Nubians it doesn't mean they blanda up with them, Egypt had 31 dynasties (32 if you count the Ptolomeyans) ranging from natives to Persians or Greeks and later ruled be Romans and Arabs. If you want to look at ancient Egyptians look at the Fayum portraits style for example. Some of them are mixed with Greeks but they were mostly native egyptians.
>>384638
It's kind of like saying Churchill was asian
Whatever they looked like, they didn't look like African Americans. Even if all Egyptians were Nubians, there is this small desert called Sahara separating Western Africa from that Region.
Might as well have Indians saying "WE WUZ NINJAS AND SHIT" because they are Asian.
>>387315
>lets look at 5th century AD portraits for how people from 2000BC looked
>>387338
>Might as well have /pol/tards and other bandwagoning memesters shitting up threads by pretending to be Indians saying "WE WUZ NINJAS AND SHIT" because the people they are pretending to be are Asian
ftfy
>>387348
/pol/ never shitposts. It's just bluepillers like you fucking false flagging.
>>387362
poltards are retarded
mentally challanged
no knowledge
no logic
no sources
nothing apart from memes and 4chin infographs
>>386845
The guy to the right? Actually....
>>387362
yeah totes f a m
something I wonder about though, even if Egyptians were black, how in heavens name would that make them in any significant way genetically or culturally related to the west africans that were used as slaves in the new world?
I heard that (at least some of the earliest) Egyptians were a now-lost race that had red-clayish skin colour. Been a long while since I read it somewhere, and I do not think it's true, but what do other people think?
>>387362
>/pol/ never shitposts.
Whenever someone post something that belongs on /pol/ outside of /pol/, they're shitposting. And this happens very often.
The kind of people that identify themselves as "/Pol/" are basically furfags and should yiff in hell.
>>387434
Something I wonder about though, even if there was the odd genuine Negrocentrist on 4chan, how in heavens name would that make them in any way less damaging to discourse than the hordes of kekold obsessed false flaggers and memesters that swoop in to shit up every African history thread?
>>387434
It doesn't. But people are retarded, so ''black'' now means everything that isn't WASP, and they were always brothers, always shared everything, and never sold each other into slavery to the Muslims or Europeans, that's a white guilt lie. Africa has always been one country with one brotherhood and perfect civilization until whitey showed up
>>387097
Ayy Yoy evil whiteys did it again, i swear ya that niggurgh
>>387347
Do you really think they changed that much? People don't just hop on planes and whip out google translate in 300 AD. It's a lot of fucking effort to move in the ancient world. And were not talking the upper crust of the monarchy which do honestly change radically some times.
The only major invasions I can think of that might have seriously changed the Egpytians from the Middle Kingdom until the time of the Fayum portraits would be the hyksos or maybe the Romans. Otherwise there's no reason to believe there might have been a mass movement from one area into Egypt that I can think of. And the fact that these are for mummies shows that the people were pretty Egyptian in culture.
>>387472
To me Black Americans seem retarded (Yuropoor), like when they convert to Islam even tough the majority of Blacks were sold be Muslims or the chimp outs when some tugh is killed. Dude they just killed one than made your entire ethnos look bad, being a retard and put things on fire and loot only makes all your people to look worse.
>>386809
Yeah.... no...
Most of the vase ornamentations were black and white/the base colour.... Were they depcting a black person they wouldn't have white hair.
Light skinned black? Yeah no.... the clay like it is.
>>387436
>anything that differs from mainstream liberal opinions is /pol/!!
maybe you shouldve stayed on reddit if you want a safe space
>>384957
But that's nothing to be proud of
These shitholes were irrelevant as fuck
WUZ WE KANGS AND SHIEET??!
>>387647
you're saying just because one of these people has light hair that they aren't black?
>>384957
Those were largely just trade empires that, while wealthy, had little in the way of cultural or technological advancement. Case in point, Mansa Musa was likely the richest person to ever live, and yet with all his and his empire's wealth, the "mosques" he built looked like this, at a time when the dirt-poor Europeans were making gothic cathedrals.
Fucking hell so much interesting stuff to discuss about concerning ancient egyptians but we only get these threads
bravo /his/
>>388506
Considering the degree in which /pol/ leaks into this board, it's hardly surprising that it would devolve into race-baiting. If I knew anything about ancient Egypt to any great detail I'd probably make an actually compelling thread myself.
>>384638
>Britannic Celts called invading Romans 'black skinned' because they were comparatively dark skinned
WE WUZ ROMANS
>>384638
I think that the more interesting thing than the truth is: why do people want this to be the truth?
It's funny because as a white person, I don't feel like it makes any difference to me what ancient white people did. They're not me.
I think black people sometimes respond to racism wrong. When a white racist says "black empires were shitty", the correct response isn't "no they weren't", the correct answer is "so?"
>>384767
Fuck off, he's just asking a question
>>384638
Even if, and this is a biiiiiiiiiig if, the Egyptians were Black African, they would be Afro-Semitic, or East African, not trash-tier coastal west African that most dindus in the US come from.
