Numerous passages in the Bible portray Jesus clearly stating that the Second Coming would occur within the lifetime of his disciples.
>"Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled."
— Matthew 24:34
"This generation" refers to a span of 30-40 years, thus placing the date of the second coming before the deaths of the disciples. C.S. Lewis called this "the most embarrassing verse in the Bible" in The World’s Last Night and Other Essays.
Three more verses explicitly state that some of the people listening to Jesus as he preached would not die before he returned.
>"Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom."
— Matthew 16:28
>"And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power."
— Mark 9:1
>"But I tell you of a truth, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God."
— Luke 9:27
Jesus also told people that "the time is short and they should not get married, not mourn, not be happy, not buy things, and not live "in the world". This again indicates that Jesus himself believed his return to be extremely imminent. (1 Corinthians 7:29-31, 1 Peter 4:7)
The whole idea of a second coming itself is pretty much bunk. The Messiah, as prophecized in the Old Testament will be a human religious leader and a warrior king born of a young woman. He will not die and come back, he will live a mortal life within which he fulfill the prophetic expectations.
no, in the bible 'generation' doesn't refer to the same thing we call a generation i.e. a lifespan
I think Jesus would flip the fuck out if he discovered that 300 years later the Emperor himself becomes a Christian. To early Christians that would be like Hitler enrolling in a Yeshiva and becoming a rabbi.
Christianity focuses SO MUCH on the fact that's it's a religion of the marginal, the poor, the oppressed that it didn't cross their mind at all that a rich and powerful guy in charge of literal armies would join it without giving away any of his wealth and power. That's why Augustine had to retcon the ever loving fuck out of it.
>>362282
You're grossly underestimating the degree of metaphor involved in the language of the Bible.
Also a lot of confusions arise from translation.
>>362316
>I don't understand religion: The Post
>>362282
The Bible also has Jesus misquoting the OT. It's not exactly a surprise if he got something else wrong.
Tbh, coming from an atheist, you could easily interpret those passages as not meaning the second coming would not be soon
>>362326
I have literally no clue which part of my post are you referring to so I'm gonna leave it at that.
>>362358
There is no 'religion 'of' '. Unless we're talking about a specific ethnic group of people.
There is only religion.
You cannot have 'religion of the poor' and that wasn't even Christ's intention. Not saying charity isn't a primary tenet of Christianity but to say it was all about that indicates a severely low level of understanding of the NT.
>>362375
>religion of the chosen people
>nope
>>362300
If you look at the original Greek, yes it does. Which makes sense considering the urgency in the rest of Jesus's messages
Preterism or bust.
>>362375
>Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God
-Jesus
>>362483
All men are beggars in the face of death. All men are penniless before god.
>>362319
You are grossly underestimating the amount of religious legal circlejerking the early Christians did to make Christ the Jewish Moschiach. The story of his birth in Bethlehem for example is one of these.
>>362375
That's how religion worked back then. Religions like Islam, Christianity, and Buddhism being universalist is more of a quirk than the norm.
>>362282
John the Apostle is still alive since he was made immortal. The end of days will literally happen in his generation. Learn your theology.
>>362589
He wasn't made immortal though. The Disciples misinterpreted what Jesus said, and believed incorrectly that John was immortal.
>>362589
>The end of days
Not him, but define what that means.
Did it really mean the "end of the world" or the "end of an age"?
>>362483
If Jesus really wanted to be poor he wouldn't have gotten a job
>>362612
End of the world.
It is taught very clearly in section seven of the Doctrine and Covenants
>>362589
So if John's still alive then where is he today
>>362620
But every usage of "end of the world" in the NT uses the Greek word Aeon, which means 'age' or period of time. Not the physical world.
>>362621
Behind anyone who's looking for him at any given moment
You mean Paul was wrong about the second coming? I mean, he and the disciples were so determined to make this Jesus guy omnipotent and godly but actually failed in every possible way
Of course there's no second coming. It's all bullshit and there is no god
>>362621
Wandering the world along with the three immortal Nephites.
>>362633
Hows he ever gonna get a head in life then
>>362316
Jesus would be more disgusted that his followers claimed to follow him while still going about in the same manner as those he derided.
That he became the power behind men with political and monetary ambitions, that the self proclaimed vicar of Christ looks more akin to a king than Christ himself.
Jesus didn't care about what you were before you became a follower, and he spent most of his time preaching mingling with the dregs of society.
Some eastern traditions say that Jesus is a bodhisattva. He might have born again within the lifespan of his disciples, only in another body.
>>362483
This is a needle's eye. Look how the camel enters and you might have a hint of what was he talking abnoiut ;)
>>362589
Either not talking about it or in a mental institution for claiming to be the Apostle John.
>>362282
Jesus was not the only one. Several Jewish radical preachers around this time in Palestine preached the same idea, that the end of the world was nigh.
Jesus claimed that it would end in his lifetime, that another figure known as the Son of Man (from the Book of Daniel) would soon come to Earth to usher in the apocalyptic end of days and a 'New Kingdom', and that then Jesus and his 12 disciples would rule over this kingdom. Hence why he referred to himself as the King of the Jews.
>>362578
Not really - in the case of Islam and Buddhism, their founders *explicitly* said that their message was for the entire world - all tribes, nations, and peoples.
>>362296
>The Messiah, as prophecized in the Old Testament will be a human religious leader and a warrior king born of a young woman. He will not die and come back, he will live a mortal life within which he fulfill the prophetic expectations.
mfw Muhammad was the Messiah all along
>>362923
That doesn't contradict what I said. Islam and Buddhism are in the minority, most old religions are perfectly fine saying "these people can't convert, our god is only meant for X group" and Christianity was like them since it was for Jews only.
>>362316
Jesus would flip the fuck out if he saw people actually worshiping him as an actual God.
>>362934
Since when did Muhammad rebuild the destroyed cities of Zion or gather in the lost tribes?
>>362969
There are actually a lot of historians who say that our timeline and historiography of Muhammad is all wrong; that he was essentially a leader of a massive Jewish messianic movement which saw Muhammad as the Messiah, and that he (rather than Umar) 'liberated' Jerusalem from the Romans and restored it to the tribes of Israel, and that this movement only became known as Islam (a separate religion) and separated itself from traditional Judaism much later, during the early stages of the Abbasid Caliphate.
>>362934
>Muhammad was the Messiah
But that goes against the Quran itself which states in [3:45]: [And mention] when the angels said, "O Mary, indeed Allah gives you good tidings of a word from Him, whose name will be the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary - distinguished in this world and the Hereafter and among those brought near [to Allah ].
Among other direct references to him. Muhammad (pbuh) himself told of the return of Isa (Jesus) before the end of time to kill the Dajjal (Anti-christ/ false messiah/ great deceiver).
>>363043
Muhammad and Jesus are the same person.
The Quran mentions wormholes and time travel. It also talks about Jesus's crucifixion and death being a 'holographic deception'.
Look it up.
>>363058
Ok, I'll concede to you on the wormholes being possible explanations for travel through the Heavens by angels and even with the Isra and Mi'raj; but saying that either prophet were the same person is just plain retarded.
Both prophets were born at different times, to different people and had very different cultural upbringings. Muhammad (pbuh) recounts being called brother by Jesus (as) in the Night Journey, and the Quran repeatedly drives home that he is Isa ibn Maryam (Jesus son of Mary) which clearly differentiates the two.
Not sure about the crucifixion being a holographic deception (I don't think it was another person on the cross in place of Jesus), I think that it was closer to Jesus being made to appear in a state of death and he was raised by Allah after being taken off the cross. but I can't really say as scholars have attempted to resolve this for centuries.
>>362989
Sounds interesting, can you provide more info?
>>362282
Early Christians thought so too. See 2 Peter 3
> 3 First of all you must understand this, that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and indulging their own lusts 4 and saying, “Where is the promise of his coming? For ever since our ancestors died, all things continue as they were from the beginning of creation!” 5 They deliberately ignore this fact, that by the word of God heavens existed long ago and an earth was formed out of water and by means of water, 6 through which the world of that time was deluged with water and perished. 7 But by the same word the present heavens and earth have been reserved for fire, being kept until the day of judgment and destruction of the godless.
8 But do not ignore this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like one day. 9 The Lord is not slow about his promise, as some think of slowness, but is patient with you, not wanting any to perish, but all to come to repentance. 10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a loud noise, and the elements will be dissolved with fire, and the earth and everything that is done on it will be disclosed.
>>363136
Read "Muhammad and the Believers" by Fred Donner and "Hagarism: The Making of the Islamic World" by Patricia Crone and Michael Cook
>>363158
So when Jesus said that his return was "imminent" and "at hand" he really meant "thousands of years from now"?
Seems like ad-hoc bullshit to me.
>>363158
>2 Peter written prior to the destruction of the Jewish temple
Well, they just needed to wait a few more years.
>>363171
Jesus literally said (if the Gospels are to be taken as true) that "the apocalypse will happen before you guys die". - Luke 9:27
TOP KEK
how can a nigga be so wrong i can't even
>>362894
Explain
>>363186
The "Eye of the Needle" has been claimed to be a gate in Jerusalem, which opened after the main gate was closed at night. A camel could only pass through this smaller gate if it was stooped and had its baggage removed. This story has been put forth since at least the 15th century, and possibly as far back as the 9th century. However, there is no widely accepted evidence for the existence of such a gate. There is actually a small gate in Jerusalem called "eye of a needle". It can be found in the Russian Church, in the Old City of Jerusalem, but was built in the 16th century, and clearly has nothing to do with this passage.
Cyril of Alexandria claimed that "camel" is a Greek misprint; that kamêlos (camel) was a misprint of kamilos, meaning "rope" or "cable".
>>363175
Nah, it's pseudonymously written probably near the end of the first century or beginning of the second - the author just wants you to think Peter wrote it so that he can add apostolic authority to his personal beliefs.
>>363202
Historians can say the book of Revelation was written after 70 AD, but that doesn't necessarily make it correct.
http://freebooks.entrewave.com/freebooks/docs/a_pdfs/kgbj.pdf
>>362282
Well, the Temple was destroyed in 70AD, which was the real end of old covenant Judaism in its true historical form. Christianity rapidly spread throughout the eastern Mediterranean by the power of the word only.
As for "not being of this world". That is what all Christians are still called to do. The Kingdom of Heaven is always imminent, and judgement is a breath away because for all you know, you could be struck dead the second you walk out your door tomorrow. So as a command for one's personal spiritual discipline, it is perfectly good advice. Many things clearly didn't mean what people may have thought they meant. Jesus never expounded on the Trinity in detail, or said "oh, by the way, I'm going to respawn in three days so don't worry".
>>363244
Yeah, just like when the first temple was destroyed in 587, it ended the Covenant.
>>362483
You have to look at the deeper meaning. What he meant (as explained in other verses) was that men could not trust in their wealth for salvation rather than Jesus Christ.
>>362956
No, he knew exactly what he was doing when he forgave the woman of her sins. Only God can forgive sin.
>>363251
They never rebuilt, became scattered, and never followed the covenant again. I mean it ended in a very practical way, not metaphysically JUST because a building was destroyed. The basic historicity was severed. There are not more animal sacrifices at the temple, no more priesthood. Rabbinical Judaism is a cultural continuation, but lacks the fundamental worship practices of Judaism. It's not Judaism in practice.
It is now Christians who have THE priesthood, and THE sacrifice. The Church is the continuation of the Temple worship in the New Covenant.
>>362483
26They were even more astonished and said to Him, "Then who can be saved?" 27Looking at them, Jesus said, "With people it is impossible, but not with God; for all things are possible with God."
>all things are possible with God
>>362483
See
>>363194
As he explains, the Eye of the Needle in Jerusalem can only be passed through does said camel removes his baggage. If a man trusts in his wealth more than Jesus Christ to attain salvation, and he is not willing to part with that wealth, he will not reach the Kingdom of God. If a rich man trusts in Jesus more than his wealth, than that man can attain salvation.
>>363267
>They never rebuilt, became scattered, and never followed the covenant again.
You might want to look at Deuteronomy's 4th chapter for what constitutes following the covenant.
>The basic historicity was severed.
And it wasn't the first time?
> no more priesthood.
There still is.
>Rabbinical Judaism is a cultural continuation, but lacks the fundamental worship practices of Judaism. It's not Judaism in practice.
And you have the standing to make this judgment how?
>It is now Christians who have THE priesthood, and THE sacrifice. The Church is the continuation of the Temple worship in the New Covenant.
Well, if you can judge Judaism, I suppose I can judge Christianity. No you don't. Your sacrifice doesn't even make sense, given that it has none of the right hallmarks of a Temple sacrifice, and oh yeah, your own sources can't make up their minds whether it's a paschal sacrifice or a sin offering, which is funny, because the paschal offering had nothing to do with the remission of sin. Oh, and by the way, when you offered lambs for sins? It's a female lamb.
>The Church is the continuation of the Temple worship in the New Covenant.
Then you're violating Jeremiah 31:32 because the New Covenant is simply the Old Covenant perfectly adhered to. Doing it wrong is a lot more like that prohpet or dreamer mentioned in Deuteronomy 13.
>>363293
Rabbis aren't priests, and you know it.
>>363302
Yes, I do know that.
The Kohanim, on the other hand are. Hereditary succession.
the second coming is about any man that has been hurt for being a good person. the double cross of the cross. If jesus returns he will not be the same.
As for the other parts of revelations and things that are to unfold. Are very mysterious. Maybe influenced by an esoteric sect. The revelation to humanity about the past future experiences to come. They believed in the resurrection of the carnal flesh but not of the heavenly flesh, or true soul. Which is the original life. In a state of no awareness and contemplations. As it is named, the purgatory. But further seeking because there is no fulfillment. Until one is redeemed by Christ. Through the renewal of his light. So we live through Christ. Living is Christ.
>>363315
So we are there tied to Christ. As he has fished us. We unconsciously experience the diluted Christ effect. The reminiscence of His soul. The echoes of his soul.
>>363303
With no function other than a cultural vestige. Judaism is dead. The messiah turned out not the be the Boss Jew conquering leader they thought he's be, and it pissed them off that they didn't get to rule the world after all--that the prefiguring function of their religion was for God's purposes, and not their own elevation over others.
So now they wait for the "real" messiah, a charismatic global leader who will usher in an age of peace and universal human brotherhood on Earth--literally exactly what the Anti-Christ will be. Quite the coincidence.
>>363319
Through living we get the glimpses of he, that has lived, is living and will forever live; dead and yet alive.
>>363273
>As he explains, the Eye of the Needle in Jerusalem
Is not real, did you even read the post you linked?
>>363324
>With no function other than a cultural vestige.
Incorrect. You might want to look up the purity laws concerning the Kohanim, or the order of precedence when it comes to reading the Torah, or how Challah is made.
>Judaism is dead.
That's funny, it still seems to be around.
>The messiah turned out not the be the Boss Jew conquering leader they thought he's be,
Jesus turned out to fulfill..... oh that's right, pretty much none of the Messianic prophecies. Good luck, try again.
While we're shooting the shit, you know what I find hilarious? Paul, in the epistles? Invariably uses the Septuagint translation to quote the Tanach, even when it makes blatant errors, like in 1 Corinthians 15:54. Why do you think that is?
>>363319
before the light we see our own shadows.
>>363344
Oh look, a Jew who doesn't like Paul. What a surprise.
>>363338
to see yet never experience it. To see it flourish around you and never feel it.
>>363267
>No, he knew exactly what he was doing when he forgave the woman of her sins. Only God can forgive sin.
There was already tradition in Palestine of the Jewish priesthood forgiving people for their sins. Jesus did not take up a Divine role but rather usurped a priestly role at that time.
>>362621
Here on 4chan shitposting
>>362550
Why though?
Judaism is an embarassing religion.
>Genesis has something called the firmament;a bowl of metal making the sky
>Noah story contradicts itself in a span of two pages
The worst has to be Ecclesiates. They author spends the entire book railing about how death consumes life and that life is all the joy you get,which directly contradicts the new testament.
>>363338
It's a nice teaching though.
>>362894
I'm sorry but this is commonly believed fabrication, proven to be false.
>>363267
>It is now Christians who have THE priesthood, and THE sacrifice. The Church is the continuation of the Temple worship in the New Covenant.
This guy gets it.
>>362282
Is it any surprise that Jesus is just a fallible man?
>>362282
>"Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled."
What I don't get is how this stuff ever made it into the Bible, since it was already proven untrue (not to have passed) when the Bible was being written down.
>>365685
The mental gymnastics of doomsday cults can never be underestimated.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Disappointment
The Millerite movement is the foundation of many Christian sects today.
The early followers of Jesus were certain doomsday was about to happen.
I can guarantee you all the suckers in the US who are certain the Rapture etc etc is about to happen aren't going to give up their faith because it doesn't.
To add to the list.
Jesus was absolutely abundantly clear he was coming back soon.
>Jesus answered, ‘If I want him to remain alive until I return, what is that to you? You must follow me.
John 21:22
Jesus warned a high priest that they would see the Second Coming.
>But Jesus kept silent and the high priest said to Him, “I adjure you by the living God, that you tell us whether you are the Christ, the Son of God.” Jesus said to him, “You have said it yourself; nevertheless I tell you, hereafter you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of power, and coming on the clouds of heaven.
Matthew 26: 63:64
>“Say what you like,” we shall be told, “the apocalyptic beliefs of the first Christians have been proved to be false. It is clear from the New Testament that they all expected the Second Coming in their own lifetime. And, worse still, they had a reason, and one which you will find very embarrassing. Their Master had told them so. He shared, and indeed created, their delusion. He said in so many words, ‘this generation shall not pass till all these things be done.’ And he was wrong. He clearly knew no more about the end of the world than anyone else.”
>It is certainly the most embarrassing verse in the Bible.
CS Lewis
http://www.audiowebman.org/bbc/books/articles/cslewis.htm
There is plenty of supporting evidence from the New Testament showing Jesus’ followers took him at his word and thought the Second Coming was going to happen in their lifetimes.
>Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son…
Hebrews 1:1-2
>Children, it is the last hour, and as you have heard that antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have come. Therefore we know that it is the last hour
1 John 2:18
>>365858
>You too, be patient and stand firm, because the Lord’s coming is near. Don’t grumble against each other, brothers, or you will be judged. The Judge is standing at the door!
James 5:8-9
But the end of all things is at hand: be ye therefore sober, and watch unto prayer.
1 Peter 4:7
>>365858
>>365863
> He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake.
1 Peter 1:20
>The revelation from Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John, who testifies to everything he saw—that is, the word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ. Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it, because the time is near.
Revelation 1:3
Here is a few more.
Hebrews 10:25, 1 Thessalonians 5:4, Romans 13:12, Philippians 4:5, John 14-3, James 5: 8-9, 1 Corinthians 15:51, Hebrews 10:37, Matthew 4:17
>>365853
You do realize that the portions in quotes are not Lewis' own opinion but that of a hypothetical critic? This is why it begins with saying "we shall be told" (i.e. Christians will be told by critics that Jesus was wrong)
>>365897
I find it fascinating that you simply come out with something like this to a clear quote.
You literally made it up in your head and decided it must be true because you didn't want to face the truth.
I notice this everytime this topic is discussed. it really is something I find so fascinating about religion, you will just perform the most zany of mental gymnastics just to keep the belief alive in your head.
>>363267
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Temple
>holy temple of all Israel, built by Solomon
>was reconstructed by the Persians under Cyrus the Great
You realize Christianity was created in order for billions of gentiles to worship a Jewish god?
>>365943
Because it's only part of the full quote.
>“Say what you like,” we shall be told, “the apocalyptic beliefs of the first Christians have been proved to be false. It is clear from the New Testament that they all expected the Second Coming in their own lifetime. And worse still, they had a reason, and one which you will find very embarrassing. Their Master had told them so. He shared, and indeed created, their delusion. He said in so many words, ‘this generation shall not pass till all these things be done.’ And he was wrong. He clearly knew no more about the end of the world than anyone else.”
It is certainly the most embarrassing verse in the Bible. Yet how teasing, also, that within fourteen words of it should come the statement “But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.” The one exhibition of error and the one confession of ignorance grow side by side. That they stood thus in the mouth of Jesus himself, and were not merely placed thus by the reporter, we surely need not doubt. Unless the reporter were perfectly honest he would never have recorded the confession of ignorance at all; he could have had no motive for doing so except a desire to tell the whole truth. And unless later copyists were equally honest they would never have preserved the (apparently) mistaken prediction about “this generation” after the passage of time had shown the (apparent) mistake. This passage (Mark 13:30-32) and the cry “Why hast thou forsaken me?” (Mark 15:34) together make up the strongest proof that the New Testament is historically reliable. The evangelists have the first great characteristic of honest witnesses: they mention facts which are, at first sight, damaging to their main contention.
>C.S. Lewis, "The World's Last Night" (1960)
>>362282
Read the first verse of the Gospel of Thomas, it's interesting in this context
Tl;dr, he's not talking about a time limit
>>365976
But the rest clearly proves me right. He comes out with the explanation that Jesus must have been ignorant because he was part man and got it wrong.
I had the rest of the quote on hand to prove it if you continued to dispute it and you posted it for me!
>>365986
He never says that Jesus "got it wrong," he says that humanity will always be ignorant of when the second coming will occur. Furthermore, the point that was originally made was that the portion in quotes within the quote are not Lewis' opinion but that of a hypothetical critic.
That you think Lewis, arguably the most popular apologist of the 20th century, is trying to say that Christianity is wrong leads me to suspect that you are a troll.
>>365965
You realize there is only one God to worship?
>>366041
>He never says that Jesus "got it wrong,"
He said
>And unless later copyists were equally honest they would never have preserved the (apparently) mistaken prediction about “this generation” after the passage of time had shown the (apparent) mistake.
That is, he says Jesus makes a mistake
>>366048
Do you know what word "apparent" means, Mr. Ruseman?
>>366041
>He never says that Jesus "got it wrong,"
He literally uses the honest admission of an error by Jesus as evidence the New Testament is accurate because it means, in his opinion, the reporters of it must have been honest in their retelling.
I am fascinated about the way you must be jumbling up the words in your head to avoid reading them properly.
>That you think Lewis, arguably the most popular apologist of the 20th century, is trying to say that Christianity is wrong leads me to suspect that you are a troll.
No one is saying that. I am saying that CS Lewis, the foremost Christian apologist of the 20th Century admitted Jesus fucked up and came up with the zany piece of mental gymnastics that Jesus was part god, part man, which is what the passage explicitly says.
>>362282
He came, he saw, he noped the fuck out.
But seriously, I wonder sometimes about the possibility that he already came through, perhaps multiple times, and was told to fuck off because nobody believed he was who he claimed to be.
>>366063
>>366082
You what?
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/apparent
>readily seen; exposed to sight; open to view; visible: The crack in the wall was readily apparent.
>capable of being easily perceived or understood; plain or clear; obvious:
And just in case you wanted to try and use definitione 3. instead may I just remind you again (I'm going to spread the sentences out so you may easily digest them...
>The one exhibition of error and the one confession of ignorance grow side by side.
>That they stood thus in the mouth of Jesus himself, and were not merely placed thus by the reporter, we surely need not doubt.
>Unless the reporter were perfectly honest he would never have recorded the confession of ignorance at all;
Just to point out again (in case your minds deliberately wandered over it)...
>exhibition of error
>exhibition of error
>exhibition of error
And just in case you think it is out of context just look how he then tries to use it as evidence that the NT is accurate.
It just consistently amazes me how you can't even read plain and simple words.
>>365954
No shit. They never rebuilt the SECOND one
>>366125
It's a pretty difficult pill to swallow. Admitting Jesus is fallible pretty much destroys all or Christianity
>>366227
You would have thought so wouldn't you but the mentaly gymnastics these people can pull in their own minds never stops.
Here is William Craig Lane, one of top Christian apologists of the present day coming up with the solution that we can’t understand the context of things that were said 2000 years ago, strange that a Christian scholar would say that we can’t understand the bible.
http://www.reasonablefaith.org/was-jesus-a-failed-eschatological-prophet
Obviously, the quotes below are cherry-picked by me, but they are still entirely accurate.
>here Jesus, at face value, seems to be saying that some of the people who were his contemporaries would live to see the coming of the Son of Man in power.
>Of course, that didn’t happen. True, Jerusalem was destroyed in AD 70, as Jesus predicted. But the Son of Man didn’t return. So one is faced with this problem: why was the parousia -- the coming of Christ -- delayed? Why didn’t it happen when one would have thought it would based on this saying of Jesus?
>>366227
>>366246
And then there is Preterism. Christian scholars have been so upset by the utter failure of Jesus to turn up again, as prophesised, that they have come up with theories that he did it quietly, without anyone noticing, even though this is completely at odds with everything the bible has to say about the Second Coming.
Literally the end of the world happened and no one noticed!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preterism
>>366246
>You would have thought so wouldn't you but the mentaly gymnastics these people can pull in their own minds never stops.
I know so. It DOES destroy Christianity, it proves that Jesus is infallible and not divine. Of course that doesn't mean people will stop being Christian. Just like a young earth creationist doesn't stop believing in Genesis after taking a course in evolution and being shown the staggering amount of evidence that proves creationism wrong.
>>366278
>infallible
*fallible
>>366125
That's very nice Mr. Ruseman, but there is a difference between calling something an "error" and an "apparent error."
What Lewis is getting at is that Christ's words are often enigmatic and simply because something is "apparent" does not mean that it is the reality; an illusion is something that "appears" to be real but is not.
If anything, Lewis is saying that the "apparent error" is a result of our human limitations in understanding Christ's words and not that Christ was wrong.
Now of our two interpretations of Lewis' words; mine being that humanity is in error and yours being that Christ is in error, I will leave it up to the lurkers to decide who is closer to his actual intent.
>>366278
The fact that you think CS LEWIS was arguing for a position that you correctly identify as undermining the basis of Christianity is further proof that you are either a fool or a troll.
>>366315
And you have failed to explain how he openly admitted that it was an error then explained it with Jesus being part man part god and then had the balls to claim it was proof the NT was correct, none of which remotely correspond with your claim to how he was using the word 'apparent' in this context.
You also seem to be forgetting that CS Lewis was just a very minor side citation.
See......
>>362282
>>363158
>>365840
>>365847
>>365858
>>365863
>>365870
>>366246
>>366256
>>366348
Mr. Ruseman, why do you refuse to acknowledge the difference between how something appears and what it actually is? Could it be that you are unable to see beyond superficial appearances? If Lewis wanted to say that Christ was wrong, why did he stay a Christian?
Please help me Mr. Ruseman, I want to understand.
>>366322
It's simple, Lewis (like creationists) have mental dissonance
>>366409
I imagine you diagnose everyone who disagrees with you as suffering from dissonance.
>>366393
If you read what Lewis wrote he interprets Jesus's fallibility as more proof Christianity is correct, he was an idiot
>>366393
The discussion is about the Delay of Parousia, my slow witted friend, no one said that Lewis stopped being a Christian, it was precisely the fact he made such an open and honest admission that Jesus fucked up and was indeed such a leading Christian apologist that made the quote worthwhile in itself.
I could dump some Bertram Russell quotes on the issue. The reason William Lane Craig and CS Lewis were quoted were precisely because they were Christian apologists.
Much like this learned theologian...
http://www.biblicalstudies.org.uk/pdf/ifes/4-2_moore.pdf
>>366420
Again, he is not saying Christ is fallible. He is saying that humanity is fallible in understanding Christ and this results in things which APPEAR to be errors but in fact are not.
>>362282
You're right. This is hell.
>>366424
Now you're just insulting me and changing subject. I should call you Mr. Rusebergblattstein.
>>366424
>Jesus fucked up
Hey man we ask for God to forgive us, He doesn't need out approval or forgiveness
>>366450
>Now you're just insulting me and changing subject. I should call you Mr. Rusebergblattstein.
I will leave judgement of that to anyone lurking.
Could Jesus have been any clearer?
>Behold, I have told you in advance. So if they say to you, ‘Behold, He is in the wilderness,’ do not go out, or, ‘Behold, He is in the inner rooms,’ do not believe them. For just as the lightning comes from the east and flashes even to the west, so will the coming of the Son of Man be. Wherever the corpse is, there the vultures will gather.
>But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.
>Now learn the parable from the fig tree: when its branch has already become tender and puts forth its leaves, you know that summer is near; so, you too, when you see all these things, recognize that He is near, right at the door. Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.
> TRULY I SAY TO YOU, THIS GENERATION WILL NOT PASS AWAY UNTIL ALL THESE THINGS TAKE PLACE.
Matthew 24: 25-34
>>366472
Things are not always as they appear.
Shalom.
Considering the "old testament", that forms the foundation for both Christianity and Islam, is pants on head retarded, and filled with so many contradictions that clearly disprove the entire concept of "god", it doesn't really matter what "Jesus" supposedly said to his "followers", as it's ALL bullshit anyway.
Genesis.......
God creates everything, because he's a bad ass, decides to create man but doesn't realize man will get lonely, because God is actually a dumb fuck, so God fixes this mistake on his part by creating a woman.
God identifies the tree of knowledge as a potential problem in the garden of eden, as the fruit from this tree will corrupt his creation.
God develops a few plans, because he's god:
1) Just remove that fucking tree so they can't get to it. 2) Build a wall around that fucking tree and tie guard dogs to it, so they can't get to it... 3.) Build a big fucking moat around that tree and fill it with crocodiles, so they can't get to it... 4.) Use almighty god powers to make that tree invisible to Adam and Eve so they can't get to it... 5.) Just tell the fuckers not to eat the fruit
God assesses each plan, and decides to implement the following: 5.) Just tell the fuckers not to eat the fruit.
God FAILS. Again.
God is essentially one huge fuck up in the old testament, as he's is constantly getting BTFO by humans, and constantly making shitty decisions that he has to rectify with other shitty decisions. It took the motherfucker like TEN FUCKING TRIES before he FINALLY managed to convince Pharaoh to release "his" people from Egypt. Some fucking "god" that is...
How any sane adult can fall for such blatant childish bullshit today is beyond me. I can understand uneducated peasants in the third world falling for this shit, but not in the west.
>>366491
>reads mistranslated old testament
>clearly hasnt read into gnosticism
Anyone find it weird the name YHWH shows up in Genesis, yet God doesn't actually reveal His name as YHWH until Exodus?
Anyone else thing YHWH isn't the true god either because this is why Jesus might have been hated to much by the people who were expecting Him to be the Messiah
>>366487
Why aren't they? Just so that your religion can be right when it clearly isn't? Do you actually have any reason to believe things are otherwise? Tell us what they are and how things actually are. Or are you just trolling?
>>366472
I-It's a p-parable guys I swear :DDDDD
>>362282
Jesus was referring to several things, not just one:
http://christianthinktank.com/qaim.html
>>366506
You have to understand a bit about the evolution of yahweh. Genesis was revised to be monotheistic much later after it was originally written. From wiki:
>In the oldest biblical literature, Yahweh is a typical ancient Near Eastern "divine warrior" who leads the heavenly army against Israel's enemies;[6] he later became the main god of the Kingdom of Israel (Samaria) and of Judah,[7] and over time the royal court and temple promoted Yahweh as the god of the entire cosmos, possessing all the positive qualities previously attributed to the other gods and goddesses.[8][9] By the end of the Babylonian exile (6th century BCE), the very existence of foreign gods was denied, and Yahweh was proclaimed as the creator of the cosmos and the true god of all the world.[9]
>>366527
Christian here.
That's the worst source I have seen in my entire life.
>>366515
>why are things not always as they appear?
now THAT'S what I call a troll question.
>>366561
That's funny, because it is clearly one of the best and most thoughtful ones on the tubes.
>>366584
Yes, WHY is a very good question. If things aren't as they appear then that means things are some other way and there is a reason for that. So what is the reason? And how are things actually?
>>366530
Yeah i don't really believe calling the true God YHWH and I know many Archons also tried to be the "one God" but it isnt Yahweh or Yalta or Lucifer they all failed already making the material world and God is originally Holy Spirit and we can know Him within our selves and by our surroundings
>>366506
>reads mistranslated old testament
You mean the same bullshit used by Jews and Christianity for thousands of years to justify their belief in a magic being that's portrayed as a complete fuck up in all their texts?
>>366590
I hope you are joking. It's people like you that destroy apologetics.
>>366599
Read the link.
>>366611
This is 4chan, summarize or paraphrase please.
>>366605
Yes, because I believe that you have actually read that entire site, let alone the single page I linked.
>>366600
No I mean civilizations with religions started in Mesopotamia (Sumerian and Babylonian Legends going into Old Testament) and also Indus River Valley (Vedas in Hinduism)
The Annunaki (old world gods) tried to be like God by exalting themselves after they fell away from Him.
God in Hinduism is about understand the Science of the Spirit with Yoga and Devotion (Bhagavad Gita) and when one reads the Bhagavad Gita they will understand what Jesus means by "The Father" or God in Holy Spirit.
Because they were expecting Jesus to be the Messiah, but when He came back and was baptized and preached a different message than what the Jews and Essenes wanted, He was killed, because He actually talks a lot about understanding the science of the Spirit rather than worship a false god and whatever the Jews believed at the time had obvious conflict with the simple message Jesus taught
>>366620
I quote:
"These passages form the various endings to a teaching session by Jesus known as the Olivet Discourse or Judgment Discourse. As Jesus is leaving the Temple, his disciples draw his attention to the grandeur of the building complex. Jesus prophesies of the coming destruction of the Temple (and the city) and then, later, this teaching session begins with questions (in various forms) from the disciples (three in Matthew, two in Mark and Luke.):
"when will these things be?" (Mt)
"what will be the sign of your coming?" (Mt)
"what will be the sign of the closing/end of the age?" (Mt)
"when will these things be?" (Mr)
"what will be the sign when these things are all about to be completed?" (Mr)
"when will these things be?" (Lk)
"what will be the sign when these things are about to take place?" (Lk)
It should be noticed almost immediately that this is more than three questions! What we have here is a summary of probably many questions, and the ones we do have recorded are multifaceted. Notice, for example, that in Mark the 2nd question is when 'all these things are to be COMPLETED" whereas in Luke it is when do "these things ALMOST START". The questions are interwoven about the destruction of the Temple, the return of Christ, and the end of the Age. In the disciples' minds (as in the wide spectrum of Jewish eschatology of the day-see Messianic Expectation in the Times of Jesus), there were probably no clear distinctions between these events (they were having trouble understanding the messianic prophecies of death/resurrection, remember?)."
>>366622
Oh for fuck sake dude, you linked an email exchange.
We can do a bit better than that I hope.
>>366643
It isn't an email exchange. He answered *an email* because that's what he often does, takes up questions from readers of his.
>>366629
Okay, so he was answering other questions besides the second coming. But it is very clear that when he says "this generation will not pass away until all these things take place." that "all these things" are exactly what he described immediately beforehand, i.e. "the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky"
>So I says to him "....alright....alright....let me get this straight. YOU created everything, including people, and yet they're constantly pissing you off and being "sinners", which means you have to judge them harshly when they die, right? So instead of just judging them for being the shitbags they are, or simply forgiving them for being the shitbags that YOU made them to be in the first fucking place, you decided to impregnate a virgin....my mother.....allow me to be raised and wander around long enough to gain a small gathering of followers, at which point you will have the fucking Jews turn me in to the Romans, who will then promptly torture and crucify me, which will lead to my death.....and THEN after a few days, when fucking NOBODY is looking, mind you, you plan on resurrecting me from the dead, only to take me to heaven a few days later after only a limited number of people have seen any evidence of my resurrection, right......JUST so that my followers can tell people that if they believe I died for their sins, you'll forgive them of theirs when they die? Did I get that right? Do you know how fucking stupid that plan is "Dad", or "God", or whatever the fuck you want to be called? You supposedly created the universe, but you have the planning ability of a retarded 8 year old child. Here's a fucking concept for you Mr. "God", why don't you just use your magic "god" powers to make those little fuckers behave in the first place, or how about just forgiving them, and leave me the fuck out of all this bullshit. You're not my dad anymore...
The long dead and very disappointed author of Corinthians told his contemporaries to stop having sex with their wives or to not get married at all because Jesus would be here any minute...
>Do not seek a wife. This is what I mean, brothers: the appointed time has grown very short. From now on, let those who have wives live as though they had none, and those who mourn as though they were not mourning, and those who rejoice as though they were not rejoicing, and those who buy as though they had no goods, and those who deal with the world as though they had no dealings with it. For the present form of this world is passing away.
Corinthians 7:27,29-31
>>366592
ask your rabbi
>>366686
>dat pic
>dat quote
Christians are the ultimate cvcks
>>366676
That's figurative language which is most likely a reference to Daniel 7 and Daniel 9, and isn't meant to be taken literally, but it most likely applies to the destruction of the temple and Jerusalem, which He did get correct btw, and which happened in 70 AD.
>>366751
>it most likely applies to the destruction of the temple and Jerusalem
Jesus had already mentioned what the temple destruction would be like
>Then Jesus went out and departed from the temple, and His disciples came up to show Him the buildings of the temple. And Jesus said to them, “Do you not see all these things? Assuredly, I say to you, not one stone shall be left here upon another, that shall not be thrown down.”
He is obviously talking about something completely different here: "they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other." This can't possibly be construed to mean the destruction of a temple, when Jesus has already described such destruction as "not one stone shall be left here upon another, that shall not be thrown down"
>>366624
>No I mean civilizations with religions started in Mesopotamia (Sumerian and Babylonian Legends going into Old Testament) and also Indus River Valley (Vedas in Hinduism)
That's a bit short sighted, don't you think?
Every group of people known to man has created some kind of "god" or "gods" and tied them into a religious doctrine of some sort. That's one of the clear pieces of evidence that demonstrates they're all just a bunch of bullshit fabricated by men.
Some, like Christians and Muslims, were just more forceful about indoctrinating others into their particular line of bullshit.
>>366677
>I know the will of God
>>>/job38/
Know your place, mortal.
Also as to the discussion about "in your generation" and Jesus being wrong: The Scrips say not even the Son knows.
>>366835
>the true spiritual hierarchy called "awliya er-Rahman (God)
>opposite to awilya esh-Shaytan (Satan)
Little word play for you guys:
>Rahman is another name for Allah
>Rama is another name for Krsna
Rahman - Rama
Also "Brahman" (impersonal, creating) as another aspect of God in Hinduism. The other two are Paramatman (Great Spirit) and Bhagavan (Personality)
>b-R-A-H-M-A-N and R a h m a n
Since the Bhagavan (Personality) is Krsna, Jesus is also the Bhagavan (Personality).
Jesus, who is the Christ, is also called Christos.
Christos in Sanskrit would translate to Krsna.
When Christians say Christ, they call on GOD. When Hindus say Krsna, they mean GOD.
Just like Krsna can mean all attractive, dark, but also
> "krsh" meaning "truth"
>" na" meaning "bliss.
Also
>Srimad Bhagavatam (3:23)
>in the nineteenth and twentieth incarnations, the Lord advented Himself as Lord Balarama and Lord Krsna in the family of Vrsni (the Yadu dynasty) and by doing so He removed the burden of the world.
Removed the burden of the world.
Interesting. Sounds kind of like what Jesus does.
>>367005
>Also as to the discussion about "in your generation" and Jesus being wrong: The Scrips say not even the Son knows.
Yes, Jesus says that he doesn't know the exact day and hour, just that it will happen within the current generation.
>>367018
Couldn't He be referring to the generation the apocalypse takes place in? Read the preceding verses. He keeps referencing the end times, also, He says the His word needs to be preached to the entire world before the end times come. That wasn't even close to happening in His generation.
>>362300
>'generation'
What does it refer to then
>>367005
>>I know the will of God
So you're satisfied with the fact that god is portrayed as a complete fuck up, and moron, in the religious texts? Damn near every single course of action attributed to him FAILS, and completely defies any semblance of common sense.
Hell, look at the entire concept of the "prophet", as an example. This is the course of action god chooses to speak with his people? There isn't a more ineffective or inefficient form of communicating with masses of people than selecting just ONE asshole to speak for you, in ONE region of ONE continent on the planet. That's retarded. If you tell a child to give a message to his classmates, that child will have the common sense to tell them all to gather around so he can talk to them ALL at the same time. That child wouldn't pick just ONE other kid to talk to, and yet this is the course of action that god supposedly selects in all his infinite wisdom? A child is smarter than god? That's just stupid, anon, and you're stupid to believe it. If god wanted to pass a message to us, he could make his face appear in the clouds and talk to the whole world at once, in our own respective languages....but he doesn't, because he doesn't exist.
The actions, and fuck ups, attributed to god in religious texts are far more closely associated with human behavior than they could ever possibly be associated with some kind of divine omnipotent, all powerful entity. The attributes assigned to god in religious texts are completely contradicted by the ridiculous actions attributed to god in those same religious texts, which is clearly evidence of human fabrication.
>>367123
>Couldn't He be referring to the generation the apocalypse takes place in?
Only if you interpret "this generation" to mean something besides the current generation. Though this is definitely not the case, as there is overwhelming evidence throughout the Bible that Jesus meant the second coming was very soon.
See......
>>362282
>>363158
>>365840
>>365847
>>365858
>>365863
>>365870
>>366246
>>366256
>>367151
You can't put God to the test, anon.
>you're stupid to believe it
:^)
>because he doesnt exist
Nice blanket assertion, I'm sure you know better than I do on that.
I never understood atheists. Why not choose agnosticism? It is actually defensible and reasonable and doesn't make you into a total cock.
Also, actions and fuck ups? Explain.
>>367151
Not that anon but here is my perspective:
The old testament is a book with other stories mixed in and mistranslated for a conspiracy cause
>fuck off anon
My thing is that what seperates us from regular material objects is a life force. This table is just a table, but I am also a body... but I am a witness to life, which implies a body mixed in with life force or spirit. Spirit seperate from the body is pure.
>why respect a God and all that stuff
I don't think people are honestly going to figure it out for themselves sometimes, like I won't read that much of OT because I think the angry god of OT is not God and it is very hard to find out which one is the real one, but Jesus helps us understand God in Spirit
>>367162
"Hereafter you will see....at the right hand of God" doesnt necessarily mean within your lifetime. He's saying at some point it will happen and He means your immortal soul will see it when you are judged. Not necessarily physically on earth.
Also, I know this probably isn't a satisfactory answer, but all the pieces of Scripture saying "the time is near" is a general caution for all generations until the final one, as, comparatively, the end of days certainly is nearer than the beginning of the universe and everything. To God, time is nothing, so it certainly is near, as He sees the whole timeline. It's nearer than you think, it's nearer than it was yesterday, do the work of God now. That sort of thing.
>>367174
>You can't put God to the test, anon.
I'm not.
I'm putting the attributes and actions assigned to him to the test, and they just don't add up to anything other than human fabrication.
God is supposed to be on a completely different level than man, and yet his actions are little different than the actions of any given naive bratty teenager.
>Why not choose agnosticism?
Because the evidence clearly demonstrates that the entire concept of god, and gods, is little more than human fabrication designed to explain the unexplained.
>>367223
Until u experience it bro u gotta commit
>>367178
The OT is the very foundation of Christianity, anon, and if that fails, then Christianity fails with it, as does Islam and Judaism.
It's all junk, anon.
>>367231
Not really you have to look at it from the angel that the faith isn't the same as the religious texts.
Mohammed tried to convert his tribe so obviously he ripped from the bible a bit.
Christianity, as a gnostic, is different than Judeo Christianity which is mixing two things that don't exactly go together.
Judaism believes that Genesis was not in any way mistranslated which is likely to be a lie.
God was always Spirit before He was perceived as material. Again, Old Testament has rips off of Sumerian Legends and Islam has rips off of Judep Christianity and it is up to each individual to find God someway, and by the very essence of the living entity is material body and spiritual souls which makes us distinct from plain old inanimate material
>>362282
Preterism (which is what most believed for a good while)
/thread
>>367251
Yes, really, anon.
The god of the OT is clearly a man made fabrication, which means that the entire concept of Jesus is a fabrication due to the fact that said god didn't exist to impregnate any supposedly virgin bride with his supposed son.
There is absolutely no contemporary evidence to support the existence of Jesus. All mention of him comes from writings that were made more than a century after his supposed death.
>>367304
James can date from 50 (earliest) to 70 Paul also dates from 50 and the gospels around 70AD. This is at most 40 years later.
Also Nero was persecuting Christians before 68 Ad when He died.
Again, YHWH (in Gnosticism) isn't the true God because the falling away of angels is when the world was "made" and man was "made" and this first mythology we have comes from Sumeria.
This says "gods" made people to have us harvest gold, procreate, and also work for them and worship them. They set their throne above God to be worshipped like God. These are the Archons, the Demiurge, and it is stated that they fell away from God in the REAL beginning.
There is so much more reading YOU have to look for otherwise your only stance of "it doesn't exist because I said so" is invalid
>>367336
>your only stance of "it doesn't exist because I said so" is invalid
It's not because "I said so", it's because the evidence that exists in religious texts, the fossil record, the geological record, in the sciences of astronomy, biology, genetics, and human psychology, all clearly point to religion being little more than a by-product of stupid humans inventing god and gods to explain things they couldn't understand.
Every group of humans has invented their own religion, and every group of humans has insisted that THEIR religion is the right one. It's not. None of them are.
>>367190
Maybe, but you ignore all the other verses about things happening "before you taste death" and "before this generation passes".
>>367258
Preterism is not compatible with 2 Peter 3-10
>>367659
Their all right. Again, you are not just a material body, something gives you the perception of life, breath, and existence. This seperates us from mere objects like food and furniture, we are alive.
Have you seen any of these fossil records? Did you see the fossils? Have you carbondated any of them? What makes a religious book any more radical than all the science you believe in?
You put faith in all these documents blindy accepting they are true, but are you a scientist or a geologist? Have you proved any sceintific finding yourself?
>>368153
>being anti-science
This kills the Christianity
>>368528
I'm not anti science I am just saying your giving Christians shit for believing in something they read just like you do.
You aren't the scientist who seen all the fossil documents and carbondating dinosaur bones are you?
>nope dinosaurs dont exists there not enough evidence for my fedora to get off of my computer and at least try it out instead of being a total dickwad all day
>>368548
So what miracles have you tried lately, communion?
>>368583
I don't go to church.
>>368548
It is reasonable to trust the claims of experts, whom we have good evidential reasons to believe have applied one of the more accurate methods (like direct scientific investigation) to a problem and reached a well-founded conclusion from them, if those experts meet certain tests of reliability. These tests include, but are not limited to, possessing genuine qualifications suited to investigating the proposition at issue, corroboration by many other experts, and proof that the expert’s biases are regularly controlled by strict adherence to one or more of the other methods delineated above. The more such criteria an expert source meets in each particular case, the more trustworthy are her claims on relevant matters. Yet even the most trusted expert testimony is not as certain as the more widely confirmed and more evidentially-supported results of logic, ma th or science, or our own direct investigation of the relevant facts, or the direct results of historical research. For there are countless ways an expert can be in error, which can only be checked by other, more direct means.
Moreover, logic and science precede expertise, and insofar as any expert claims something is true contrary to logic or science, his expertise alone counts for nothing—in fact, he throws into suspicion anything else he might claim on his authority. The same holds when an expert attempts to assert something that contradicts our own personal experience or sound historical investigation. Worse, in fields like theology we find very little agreement among qualified experts, and a vast influence of ideological bias that is rarely placed under any objective control.
Thus, when we examine expert claims, we must account for whether they really are expert in the matter at hand, and whether their claims meet the criteria of trustworthy expert testimony.
>>368636
I am not reading all that. Don't use a hundred words when you can use ten.
>>368661
>Christian intellectualism
>>368711
In a way. I know it is going to be a cyclical conversation.
Just saying, what seperate you from your keyboard is the fact that you are alive and a conscious entity with feelings and a soul. If you want to think God is only in the Bible then you can lose out.
I strongly recommend you take this "I am not the body, I am not the mind" and meditate in this, repeat it. The body is impermanent and so is the mind, which is not perfect.
When you don't associate with body and mind you associate with the soul that you have.
Read this book
>>368661
That's not even a long post.
>>368800
>blah blah blah science
>blah blah blah they have degrees in stuff
>blah blah blah physical evidence
You guys have any idea how easy it is to access the soul?
>>368153
>Again, you are not just a material body, something gives you the perception of life, breath, and existence. This seperates us from mere objects like food and furniture, we are alive.
And? So is bacteria. That doesn't mean we need to invent a god to justify our existence, anon, especially when ALL the evidence points to the fact that god, and gods alike, are little more than fabrications made by humans without the technology and accumulated knowledge we have today.
>Have you seen any of these fossil records? Did you see the fossils? Have you carbondated any of them? What makes a religious book any more radical than all the science you believe in?
Actually, yes, I have seen some of the fossils I referenced. I've also seen some of the geological evidence, and have read articles about biology and genetics. The difference between scientific method and your religious books is the fact that scientists don't take anything on faith, but try to disprove claims, and demand evidence to support any given claim. Your religious books, on the other hand, are supposed to be believed on faith, with absolutely ZERO evidence supporting any of their claims, even if those claims defy the laws of physics and biology as we understand them.
>You put faith in all these documents blindy accepting they are true, but are you a scientist or a geologist? Have you proved any sceintific finding yourself?
No, not "faith", and certain not blindly, anon, but in accordance with evidence that ANYBODY can research. Without evidence scientific method is little more than another useless faith, like every other religion.
>>368849
Yeah I took mushrooms one time
>>362589
>20 Peter turned and saw that the disciple whom Jesus loved was following them. (This was the one who had leaned back against Jesus at the supper and had said, “Lord, who is going to betray you?”) 21 When Peter saw him, he asked, “Lord, what about him?”
> 22 Jesus answered, “If I want him to remain alive until I return, what is that to you? You must follow me.” 23 Because of this, the rumor spread among the believers that this disciple would not die. But Jesus did not say that he would not die; he only said, “If I want him to remain alive until I return, what is that to you?”
>24 This is the disciple who testifies to these things and who wrote them down. We know that his testimony is true.
Oh shit, it's true.
>>368959
>Because of this, the rumor spread among the believers that this disciple would not die. But Jesus did not say that he would not die
Uhh... Define 'true'
>>368963
>Get your LDS bs out of here.
As if that shit is any different from Islam, Judaism, Christianity, or scientology...
>>368967
It's different in at least one way and that's that we know the personal history of Joseph Smith and how he's a fraud and scam artist. It's certainly a sillier religion to believe in although arguably just as likely to be true.
>>368977
>the personal history of Joseph Smith and how he's a fraud and scam artist.
Citation needed
>>368886
All life that is alive is life. If it is inanimate without life then there is no life.
This empty can is not alive but I am, and this is energy in my body that is my soul, beyond the mind. When I exit this body I am not dead, I am just a pure soul outside the physical perception, and so are you.
>>368982
>>368981
His arrest record detailing him using an extremely similar "seer stone" scam to dupe people out of money. He was tried for fraud numerous times. The biggest example being the Book of Abraham which showed definitively that he could not read Egyptian as he claimed.
>>368999
>His arrest record detailing him using an extremely similar "seer stone" scam to dupe people out of money. He was tried for fraud numerous times
Citation needed
>>369002
Here you go.
http://www.utlm.org/onlinebooks/changech4.htm
>>368977
And Mohammad is any different with his bullshit story about being visited by an angel in a cave? Funny there were no witnesses to this visitation.
Then you have Jesus. A dude that supposedly existed, and yet there is NO evidence of his existence except from documentation written about him long after his death. He's a dude that supposedly got killed, and then came back to life, and yet, where are all the accounts of this supposed resurrection? Surely that event would have been impressive to more than just a small group of sycophants, and I'd argue that even the Romans would have been impressed, and recorded the event, if not made mention of it to Rome itself.
I think there's enough fraud and bullshit to go around to every religion.
>>368982
>I am just a pure soul outside the physical perception, and so are you.
Nah.
That's just more human bullshit to compensate for the natural fear of death.
We don't need "souls" any more than an E. coli cell needs a "soul".
>>369034
It's the level of detail that makes the difference. Mohammed we know a few things about, enough in my opinion to write him off as unlikely to be a prophet. But it's still vague enough to where with heavy agenda you could make him out to be somewhat noble. Jesus even more so since our only account of him is from the gospels.
Joseph smith on the other hand is such an obvious huckster and con that it's plainly ridiculous. That's what I mean by sillier.
>>369057
Fair enough.
>>368990
>>369046
>>363267
>No, he knew exactly what he was doing when he forgave the woman of her sins. Only God can forgive sin.
Dude, even I can forgive your sin.
Now then either I'm God or everyone can forgive sins.
>>362282
>God said when the end would happen!
It's the prophecy of the destruction of the temple, which did happen. The talk itself BEGINS with discussing the temple and how it will be leveled.
>There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom
This happened at his resurrection.
>1 Corinthians 7:29-31, 1 Peter
It was a common belief at this time that Jesus could return at any time and it is still taught by Christians to expect the end times whenever. However, you're exaggerating what the texts are saying.
>>362347
The OT was not written down in its final format until after the destruction of the Temple in 66AD. Until then, there were many more books and scrolls, many variant traditions, all now lost.
>>363179
The destruction of the Temple and the expulsion of the Jews from Judea did happen in their lifetimes....
>>363949
>Why though?
Fulfilling prophecy. Much of the numerological indications of the NT are to fulfill symbolic meanings the nature of which is lost, such as the recurrence of the number seven in Revelations.
>>366424
>Christian apologist
...cries the... what? Atheist? Jew? Muslim?
>>363105
> Isa ibn Maryam
Is it usually bin or ibn for most folk?
>>362300
It's symbolic, just like everything else which was ultimately failed to be true in a literal sense.
>>363261
It's easier to look for an alternative meaning when it's incredibly ambiguous.
>>370671
>>371308
Okay, now post the one with the scientific advancement somehow measured and everything plummeting in the "Christian Dark Ages". I'm sure its on your facebook wall somewhere.
>>371349
What a completely incoherent and irrelevant point.
>>371349
>Christian Dark Ages is fake
>therefore all criticisms of Christianity that mention science are fake
Great logic
>>370128
>grasping at straws this hard
>>362282
This is actually one of the main reasons that Bertrand Russell says he is not a Christian
>>369009
Thank you
>>368661
>being this illiterate
>>362282
What are the implications of Jesus being wrong?
>>372317
That Christianity is wrong
>>372317
Apart from the obvious implication he wasn't a divine prophet yet alone some sort of a manifestation of the creator of the entire Universe I am not sure what you want.
>>362300
The word Γενεὰ is used and comes from γίγνομαι, "being born, coming into being" --- the γίγ- prefix moves onto γέν- as in γένεθλον (race, descent), cognate with γένος, extremely well-known term: the different clans of the πόλις.
Now, γένος and γενεά do both come from γίγνομαι, and both tend to point to the reality of a clan, of a nation, of a race, --- and this is what the Bible is talking about: your translation is as flawed as your understanding of the original Greek term. What is mentioned here is the "race", the "herd"; before the Low Middle Ages, redemption was considered as a common reality, shared amongst the Christian community in general. This is what we see here; before Christianity passes, the Second Coming shall be unto you.
>>372521
>implying ancient people had any concept of race
Nice shitpost
Any Christians here and to explain how you can still be Christian after knowing Jesus is fallible?
>>372953
By ignoring it and praying harder
>>363158
This is the second-most damning quote in the Bible then
>>369230
Only Santa can reward you with presents
>>362282
This makes me question my faith.....
What do /his/?
>>374821
Enlighten me?
>>374789
Keep questioning
>>370690
it's not incredibly ambiguous though, you're just retarded
wealth corrupts, it's a given that most wealthy people succumb to more vices than the average lowly peasant - therefore it is harder for those who are wealthy to enter heaven
>>377295
But but muh gate! Christianity isn't a slave religion!
>>377006
*crickets*
>>362442
Doesn't explain the excuses made in the Bible for it not happening (muh 1000 years!)
>>372436
What? It's wrong? Color me surprised
>>366044
Zeus
>>362319
>metaphor
Wat. There are literally passages in the Bible where people are making excuses for why the end times haven't happened yet
>>372953
I started having doubts when they wanted to forgive me for something I didn't do.
>>362282
>ctrl + f Pentacost
>0 results
>literally the spirit of god dwelling on/in humans
step it up, /his/torians
also the resurrection is a vision of the kingdom of god.
>>362282
Read VALIS it explains what happened, for the most part anyway.
>>367174
agnostic here.
christianism and any sort of human made personal god is batshit stupid and makes absolutely no sense.
They're based on absolutely pahtetic, laughable and literally childish beliefs.
Wasn't the resurrection the Second Coming?
>lives and preaches (1st coming)
>dies on the cross
>resurrects and comes back to life on the 3rd day (2nd coming)
>returns to heaven and leaves forever
Is this not a valid opinion? He already came twice, why come again?
>>386045
>anon has only cum twice in his life
anon pls
>>362282
He could very well have just been referring to his resurrection, which is basically the proof that all the things Jesus said were right and that he is "coming in his kingdom."
Why are you reading into this apocalyptically?
>>386045
What about the apocalypse
>>386075
Have you even read the bible? I suggest reading Revelation for a help description of what is supposed to happen when Jesus comes back.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation+1
>>386147
Not every Christian accepts the book of Revelation as part of the Christian canon.
>>385476
And why should we believe you and not them?
>>386305
It is also mentioned in the Book of Acts. Belief in the Second Coming is widely accepted by Christians. I would even go as far as to argue that it is an integral part of the faith.
>>362282
assuming souls in Christianity retain their same consciousness into heaven and hell, wouldn't that not be wrong in a way?
He can be referring to Death as in the total absence of life and the soul.
because if you're still you even after you die, then really what's going on is a DBZ death
