A girl I knew told me yesterday that all men in ancient greece were bisexual. Is there any truth to the claim that all Greeks were BOYS MMM!
no true scotsman
>>361194
How is this relavant?
>>361175
Anon, she wants to have a devil's three way with you.
"sexual orientation" as we have it today is a recent idea. In Greece fucking men did not make you gay, this isn't to say that they could just do whatever you wanted with your sex life. You had a social obligation to have children.
Read Foucault
>>361203
Because of the claim.
>>361208
This might be plausible desu
>>361211
But was fucking men actually common or is it just a meme?
>>361175
Not in the way she's thinking.
Ancient Greeks sexualized roles more than genders. There was the masculine role and the feminine role. Pitcher and catcher.
Now they practiced pederastry. It was totally acceptable and even expected for adult men to fuck young boys. However once the boys got older they were expected to shed the feminine role and grow into masculinity in which they would fuck young boys themselves.
Homosexual relationships between adult men was considered taboo because it went against the image of masculinity. An adult man playing the feminine role was considered shameful while the masculine partner was seen as an alpha doing his thing. As such homosexual relationships in Ancient Greece wasn't something that was publicly accepted.
>>361252
Did Aristotle fuck Alexander?
>>361270
My dick says yes.
>>361211
>"sexual orientation" as we have it today is a recent idea
How true is this?
>>361270
Most likely.
>>361289
Very true. Today sexual orientation is a major part of your identity and people identify as Xsexual - even if it is strictly heterosexual. That was not a thing back then. Just like right now being "everyday" religious is not a thing - like everyone going to church and believing in god because, well, that is the way things are. Things change.
>>361289
Very true. It's just sjw shit.
>>361289
The notion of heterosexuality as a distinct state was first created in 1892 by Charles Gilbert Chaddock in his "Psychopathia Sexualis".
Up until then the notion of sexuality as a group you belong to and as a statement of what you are ("I am straight", "I am gay" says that you are part of the group straight and gay and this is a property of you as a person, like being male/female, or haircolor). Some men were attracted to men in addition to women. Some men were attracted to men and not attracted to women at all. This was just the way you were, and while it was considered bad, was ultimately just a facet of you, it was not a defining characteristic.
Socrates fucked tons of men. In one of the dialogues a former lover bursts onto the scene drunk and crying about how Socrates won't cuddle after sex. Socrates is embarrassed because he is busy trying to get with another man at that very moment. He also had two wives at once and had nine kids between the two of them. People got horny. People sated their needs. People bred. These are things people do. The notion of an alternative to this was alien.
Not only because sexuality as an identity is new, but also because even flaming faggots would have children. Not breeding would get you ostracized from your family and rob you of basically any economic endeavors what so ever. Not having children wasn't just something that wasn't done, it was economic suicide.
>>361338
To add onto this, the Catholic Church considered sodomy to be a sin.
However, sodomy was an action you COMMITTED. Wanting to fuck men didn't make you a sodomite any more than wanting to kill your neighbor made you a murderer*. Being a sodomite was not an identity, it was a label of something you did repeatedly.
*Wanting to do these things is of course a sin but not nearly as bad as actually doing it, and rather than getting hanged/whipped you'd just pay the priest a fee and be on your way.
>>361175
Ancient Greece, Rome and others didn't subscribe to modern degenerate and dualistic models of sexuality, so in that sense they were "bisexual". But when people say bisexual today they mean it as a pro-LGBT identity and things of that nature which the ancients did not subscribe to as they valued the family unit.
>>361338
I thought the problem was that socrates only cuddled, rather than surrendering his boipussi
>>361270
Wasn't Aristotle more of a counter culture kind of dude though?
He kind of eschewed normal greek thought, and was run out of athens late in life.
>>361309
I think you're full of shit, considering gender roles and sexual identity were one in the same back then.
I once remember reading that in Ancient Greece homosexuality was common and considered normal amongst adolescents but they were expected to grow out of it. Is that true?
>>361364
Socrates was a top
>>361211
>Read Foucault
>>361211
>fucking men did not make you gay
I somehow thought it's the other way around, being gay making you fuck men.
>>361489
I'm not an expert but as far as I was aware Greeks and Romans had no problem against the 'giver' but the 'taker' was seen as less of a man and not truly masculine. It was normal for Greeks and Romans to have some adolescent boy slave to fuck in the ass but it wasn't seen as the done thing, among decent upstanding male citizens, to be the adolescent boy that got fucked in the ass.
>>361556
Misconception by a porno from the late 70's
Greeks had literally no problem with the taker either and he wasn't seen as less 'manly' because of it
>>361252
What about the Sacred Band of Thebes?
>>361587
Actually it must have been me taking the idea from Roman society and projecting it onto the Greeks.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality_in_ancient_Rome
>>361249
Sex between younger and older men was somewhat common as a type of bonding. Full blown homo was far less common and lesbianism wasn't really accepted.
>>361289
Read Focalust, the idea that you can point at someone and say 'gay' or 'straight' is new. No such vocabulary existed in the past and who you spent your time fucking really didn't matter. Even the idea that having an affair is something bad is a new idea. It was looked down upon in the past but it wasn't 'evil'.
As focaulst did it, what you did sexually was not something hung onto you. The act and the person doing the act were separate. Just like eating ice cream once or twice did not make you 'piggish' having sex with a man did not make you gay and having an affair did not make you an adulter.
This idea actually came about with a few Roman thinkers and their ideas were later copied (almost word for word in some cases) into Christian writers who spread the ideas once they got political power.
The idea that 'people have always thought this way about sex and gender' is bullshit.
>>361175
Depends on the time period. However what is commonly accepted is that open homosexuality was looked down upon. They had rules for it, and the whole concept of manliness that restricted who you could fuck. Being exclusively homosexual was also considered unmoral because you where supposed to have wife and children after a certain age.
Oh the other hand some of Heracles myths where used by homosexual couples to swear love on each other. We don't really have concrete evidence of the standing of homosexuality on Greece.
The ones who didn't give a fuck where the Romans. Ironically the Romans where also extremely quick to call out and kill degenerates.
>>361211
>>361289
This is true. Sexual orientation is a very Christian thing.
Another example of sexuality being defined by gender roles is the norse. The norse would shame and expel you if you where known to be a bottom. It made you "unmanly" and therefore a unworthy as receiving dicks was seen as a girl thing (to the point getting raped as considered a big deal), however nobody gave a fuck if you where the person doing the butt fucking.
>>361249
Among the nobility, yes. But it was very regulated and you could get put on trial for trespassing boundaries. We have no idea what the common peasant though of homosexuality however.
>>361252
This, up to a point. irrc Heracles and Achilles had their share of adult-on-adult gay.
>>361270
That's late Greek period, I think pederasty went out of fashion by then. plus Alexander wasn't culturally Greek (or wasn't seen as a Greek by the Greeks themselves) and Aristotle wasn't a noble.
>>361175
They weren't bisexual in the modern sense, they were expected to marry and reproduce, and fucked little boys on the side, which was the only socially approved form of extramarital sex.
Plato was probably the first full-blown fag, as he never married, which makes it more than likely that he only ever had sex with boys.
>>361338
>1892
I think we can trace the bitrh of sexual orientation as a concept bck to the days of Christian Rome, or at least the middle ages.
>>361754
>Wasnt seen as Greek
Didn't Alexander take part in the olympics?
>>361822
the Macedonian were essentially Greek, and did take part in the Olympics, but they were still frequently considered to not be Greeks (mainly for political reasons though).
>>362016
Participation in the Olympics was a right reserved only for free Greek men.
Saying Macedonians were allowed to take part makes me question just how ungreek the rest considered them but still that's not the point.
I thought in order for a macedonian to participate they would have to prove their ancestry as being Greek. Alexander did that and thus was allowed to participate. So saying he wasn't Greek isnt exactly accurate I don't think
>>361556
I am an expert and first of all, anal penetration rarely took place. It was done in between the thighs. Second, the practise of pederasty, while not seen as abominable as was adult to adult homosexuality, was still the butt of many jokes.
Neither things were accepted. Pederasty was just swept under the rug as something which happened, in a specific timeframe in the history of either culture. And both were very different with respect to being either Grecian or Roman.
Actual homosexuality between two adults was universally condemned. Not to mention the fact that these two adults were rarely ever exclusive.
If anything, the ancient world was doubly more conservative about sexuality and gender roles than we are today. Anybody who looks back into that time period as a sort of confirmation of their ideology in this regard is a moron, simply put.
>>362295
>Actual homosexuality between two adults was universally condemned
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sacred_Band_of_Thebes
>>361252
>Homosexual relationships between adult men was considered taboo because it went against the image of masculinity.
Who were The Companions?
Wait, so some of you are saying fucking boys was common, some of you say it wasn't, and some of you say it wasn't really homosexuality.
WHICH IS IT??!
>>362295
>butt of many jokes.
That aside, what exactly was the specific differences between the Romans and the Greek when it came to homolust and kiddy fiddling? It's kind of hard to get an actual account nowadays with all the LGBTWTFBBQ historical revisionism going on. The non-exclusivity thing with homosexuality kind of reminds me of how in Japan, lesbianism is seen as something juvenile that you either get out of your system in high school or you settle down with a man and have kids regardless.
>>362343
It was common, but it wasn't really homosexuality as you were still expected to marry and have children.
I know that the concept of what was manly was rather different back then.
For example crying was seen as a very manly thing do to, leaders would cry during their speeches.
>>361717
> Ironically the Romans where also extremely quick to call out and kill degenerates.
Can you tell me moer about this
>>362343
You can't really say it was homosexuality as it's a very modern concept.
There was no sexuality in Classical Greece, only sexual acts.
There are a lot of one-sided speeches, notably because the writings scholars worked on these past decades weren't that numerous but things probably were way more complex, a handful of writers can't possibly represent the Greek society as whole.
The Greek society was spread on hundreds of city-states, maybe about 800 for the archaic and classical periods.
All didn't have the exact same customs, laws, etc. and they perpetually evolved through time.
You can find everything and its opposite, repressed homosexal acts, erômenos with a beard, display of affection being accepted or condamned, so it really is difficult to say that pederasty solely was didactic, if homosexal acts were despised, etc..
I don't think there's a simple answer.
What we can be certain of is that Ancient Greeks had a very different scale of values and that it was a highly phallocentric society where women had almost no place.
>>361252
Hang on, if men fucking other men was frowned upon, what were Greek attitudes towards Zeus? Or does the king of the gods get a pass?
>>361514
Same. Foucault died young, but not young enough.
>>361270
The son of a king? Probably not, since Alexander was aggressive and had a temper linked with his pride. He wouldn't accept the feminine role. That's my gut
>>361607
Tough to say. Some say they were homo fuccbois. Some say they weren't.
The conflicting accounts means if they were, they weren't exactly open about it.
>>361289
It's true. Even today in countries like Afghanistan men don't see themselves as homosexual even if they fuck other dudes. Sexual orientation is a foreign concept to them.
>>362295
>between the thighs
That's a euthamism for anus.
>>362777
>they weren't exactly open about it
Weaponized faggotry was pretty much what they were known for.
>>361175
Homosexuality now is different than it was then.
Short answer yes, long answer no.
>>364128
>Even today in countries like Afghanistan men don't see themselves as homosexual even if they fuck other dudes.
*Children. Homosexuality is punished by death in most islamic countries.
>>361175
Bullshit. Read Foucault, ignore the memers who haven't read Foucault but dislike him because they dislike other people who also haven't read Foucault but mention him anyways to legitimize their daddy issues projections.
