So, was it really all that bad? Or does /his/ just have a hate boner for all things Muslim?
Yeah dude why would we hate a religion that openly calls for an end end to our way of life you pussy faggot
No worse than any other empire.
Ottomans are fairly hated here for conquering muh dindu Byzantines.
>>268590
/his/ hates them because they were a tolerant and progressive Empire
>>268590
No, the Ottoman empire rocked.
They were also the worst Muslims ever, it was the biggest meme caliphate of all time.
Bunch of leftists on this board, of course they have a hard on for Islam.
>>268602
Edgy
>>268602
Calm your shit, I'm asking because I dont know
>>268617
This is what I assumed basically, but some are nonetheless objectively better towards their citizens than others.
>>268624
By worst Muslims ever you mean they tolerated other religions fairly well? I assumed they must have, since they held so much land with varied religions and cultures.
>>268590
Ask its subjects
>>268645
>posted from a Starbucks
Suck my dick you pansy hipster faggot
>>268602
Christianity also called for the end of all muslims and other "heretics" for hundreds of years
>>268663
not an argument
>>268662
Relevant
You are actually an edgy faggot tho
>>268617
Baseless platitude
Aside from their early military culture and advantage they were trash
>Ottoman
>Empire
This agglomeration was called and still calls itself the Ottoman Empire was neither holy, nor Ottoman, nor an empire.
>>268656
No, I mean they were just shit at being Muslims.
The amount of gay-sex, alcohol and other fun going on in the Ottoman Empire is an absolute disgrace to Islam.
>>268685
So it was actually a pretty cool place is what you're saying?
>>268688
Yeah basically.
God-tier decadence and court drama. Turned to shit in the 18th century but had a good run for centuries.
Imagine if an Aztec horde appeared and conquered a Paris way past its pride and then was bossed around by French eunuchs while being kept on lifesupport by Germany and Britain so Spain doesn't annex it. That's the Ottoman Empire.
During the early reign and the height of Ottoman power, it was common for many Europeans to come and voluntarily become slaves for the Ottomans, they got to live in the house and were free to visit home whenever they please. I think they were even able to keep their religion sometimes (Not sure on the last one).
>>268690
He also banned interest, which is pretty important for capitalist banks.
>>268590
It was certainly terrible in the Balkans. Turkish actions there have fucked up the region permanently
>>268590
>this triggers the papist
>>268590
>So, was it really all that bad? Or does /his/ just have a hate boner for all things Muslim?
Half the threads here are about Christianity. You should be able to go from there.
>>268590
It's more like, why can't we just invade them now and force them to become Christians.
That's what they did.
>>269025
Polls have confirmed that that's just a loud minority
For me it's muh Byzantines ;_;
>>269045
The rise of the Ottomans the resulting demise of the Byzantines were just the final knell of long running funeral toll. The Byzantines were on a permanent decline the instant Justinian died from the plague. From then on it was a slow painful death with occasional glimmers of hope in the form of regional conquest.
>mfw I'm Turkish and I see one of these threads
>>268684
>Holy
it didn't claim to be Holy
>Ottoman
the real name is Osmaniyye
>Empire
it is an Empire tho
>>269075
You know, I never see russians brag about the fact that they have the biggest country in the world right now. But for some reason Brits and Turks cant shut up about their crumbled empires.
>>269068
>in the form of regional conquest.
Re-conquests. They had to lose it to regain it.
>>269108
Its a we-used-to-be-an-empire thing, you wouldn't understand.
>>269124
>oi mait i may be a middle aged bacherlor, uneducated and unemployed, living in the same trailer as my ancestors, but WE WUZ EMPERORZ AND SHIET!!! AW YEAH IM BETTER THAN YOU
>>269068
You don't believe that less territory=decline do you? look at song china to change your mind
Decline came from a chain of poor rulers after basil ii(back when the empire was on its way back)and the turkish attacks and migration into asia minor
>>268590
>So, was it really all that bad?
250+ million infidels killed for allah
search for - tears of jihad
>>268590
The claims that it didn't contribute to "technological and philosophical advancement" are true, but they don't mean much. Rome was never known for its advancements either, most of what the had was just borrowed from the Greeks, just as the Turks borrowed from the Byzantines.
Their empire really wasn't worse than any other historical empire. Sure, there were atrocities, but often times their rule was more tolerant than those they conquered.
Their empire was more or less doomed to collapse, though, just like the Austrian one. The rise of nationalism made the idea of an empire dominated several distinct nationalities and religions impossible. The Turkish reputation as being genocidal or evil stems from their collapse. The Turkish government was desperate to keep their clay, so they expelled and/or genocided many of the Greeks, Kurds, Armenians, and others from their land as a way to remove their claims on it. The idea was that if there weren't any, say, Greeks in Turkey then that land couldn't be given to Greece.
Basically, don't believe the /pol/ bullshit about "muh evil mudslime empire", they weren't any worse than European powers, but don't buy into claims that they were a tolerant and progressive society either.
>>269161
Don't forget the Fourth Crusade, the Mongols, and the Seljuks (who were just as Persian as they were Turkish, if not more)
Byzantium was dying long before the Ottomans got there. Byzantium was weak but its territories were rich, its land was coveted by Italian republics, Catholic crusader states, and others. If Mehmed hadn't conquered Constantinople, someone else would've.
>>269132
Exactly.
>>269001
t. Ariadenvs Barbarvssa
>>269240
>Rome was never known for its advancements either, most of what the had was just borrowed from the Greeks, just as the Turks borrowed from the Byzantines.
Wut?
No other (European) empire or nation state in History, except maybe the greeks, has contributed so much to streamlining and rationalizing society as the roman empire has.
So what the fuck you calling advancements? As in they didn't invent prismatic mirrors? well, no shit but they fucking took every far flung idea everyone else had and organized it to something workeable, set it lose upon europe and then every other country afterwards had such a hardon for them they just wanted to fuck them continuously.
>>269240
wow, this entire post.
>>269282
That all happened after what I was talking about(except for the turks which I was referring to anyway) and is a consequence of what I said
Seeing post justinian byzantine history as a period of decline is just plain wrong, culturally and society wise it was very good in 1025, byzantium's fate wasn't sealed after the fourth crusade either by the way, that happened after a grudging civil war much later, although by then society was indeed in decline
>>269108
Probably because 80% of Russia may as well not exist for all the use it is.
it was responsible for destroying the TRUE Roman Empire, so it is bad.
>>268684
You're overdoing your shtick, François-Marie.
>>269548
The Byzantine empire was already done by then
Those are just edgy /pol/tards
>>268744
>During the early reign and the height of Ottoman power, it was common for many Europeans to come and voluntarily become slaves for the Ottomans, they got to live in the house and were free to visit home whenever they please
Wow, Sultan Erdogans historical revisionism has really gone wild
>>269605
I wonder when /pol/ comes up with a white power version of Islam.
They should call it Aryan Submission and make it about how Muhammed was a white guy who made colored people submit to him by force
>>268590
They are great. Much more tolerant than your average muslim nowadays, greatest military of its age, stimulated cultural exchange, introduced coffee to Europe, had the world's greatest city as its capital and finally ended the Eastern "Roman" "Empire"
>>269694
I'd say /r9k/ will turn into some kind of bizarre Islamic sect long before /pol/ does.
>>269075
>iceland
>August 1625 Ottoman navy raided Sussex, Plymouth, Devon, Hartland Point and Cornwall, stealing 27 ships, sinking many others, and causing damage to the port cities
>During the american civil war, Ottoman ships attacked and enslaved americans until the sultan of Morocco intervened.
The more you know.
Anything run by Turks is bound to be shit
>>269764
Between 1450 and 1680 their country was the strongest on the planet.
Although some will argue it wasnt "their" and it wasnt ran by "turks".
>>269729
Actually...
>>269729
/r9k/ is a post-ironic, post-meme, post-sarcasm exploration of the human psyche.
Nothing there is to be taken at face value, nothing ever.
>>269768
Strong doesn't equal good
Barbarian Germans defeated Romans but their society was shit
>>269764
This, just look at the Balkans.
>>269721
>greatest military of its age
>An army comprised of non Turks
>An army that got btfo by a bunch of Montenegrin shepherds
>>269817
>nitpicking a single battle from the decline of the empire
>>269868
>>nitpicking a single battle from the decline of the empire
>the decline of the empire
This isn't a problem when Turks and Arabs flaunt their victories over the dead and beaten Eastern Roman Empire. By your logic everything after Suleiman was a decline in the Empire since Turks have a horrible military track record after him. The Ottoman Empire was a sickness, it infested the Balkans, regions of Europe that weren't infected are thriving today, just look at Croatia, which was under the habsburgs and Serbia, no, Bosnia, which actually turned muslim.
>>269796
Oh, I get you ;-) *wink*.
It's all satirical, NSA *wink*.
>>269891
to be honest Serbia is shit today because of nato bombing and economical sanctions that lasted for a decade and crippled the economy.
having said that, ottoman rule is the lowest point of serbian history, im surprised we survived it
>>269891
I can tell that you are objective and fair, and a history enthusiast.
You are obviously not just some nationalist redneck who comes on /his/ to boast his ancestors could beat up my ancestors.
You shouldnt kill yourself.
>>268602
Which is completely irrelevant on matters of historic note.
>>270056
>the Ottoman empire wasn't the sick man of Europe and in a semi-feudal state when it was dissolved
>The Ottoman Empire wasn't on life support by the great powers
>The Ottoman Empire was a tolerant peaceful empire were everyone lived in peace and harmony and were building pyramids and exploring space
There is nothing wrong with what i said, countries that were under Ottoman rule are objectively worse economically than countries that weren't, even though those countries are separated by a river. The Ottoman Empire being the sick man of Europe and having a horrible military track record is also a fact.
>>270087
read >>269768
>1450 to 1680
Every single state has bad periods and you keep pointing out the decline, while ignoring the glory.
You are clearly doing that out of irrational hatred towards a long extinct state, I imagine fueled by right wing anti-muslim memes.
You need to check that shit at the door before you discuss history.
>>270099
I have no hatred for the Ottoman Empire, its people like you who want to whitewash its history and only focus on the "good" that i hate. The bad the Ottomans did far outweighs the "good". They left nothing behind, no achievements, no trace other than killing, bribery and corruption. Some Empires leave at least something good behind, some kind of infrastructure, education, or improvements in economy. The Ottomans drove the regions it conquered back centuries in those fields.
>>270122
>bad
>good
>used in a historical discussion
Go away.
its balkan and european nationalist butthurt. They were the last eastern empire that subjugated them.
add to that fact that turkey for all its radicalization still stands storng, it has a bigger economy / milltary / population than all of its former territories. With Egypt and Israel being the only exceptions.
So If you are a balkan boy not only you have to get over the fact of ottoman rule but also the fact that they are a stronger nation than you. I believe if turkey was weak they wouldn't hate her this much.
Just an outsider observation.
>>270122
>Some Empires leave at least something good behind, some kind of infrastructure, education, or improvements in economy.
they had all of them, its just that didn't give a fuck about anywhere except Constantinople and proper. Turks in anatolia also lacked infrastructure education etc etc almost all anatolian buildings are from seljuk or byzantine times.
Ottomans cared for one city just as they cared for one dynasty.
>>270133
>everything is relative
>history exists in my mind only
>it has no connections to real life what so ever
No you go away
>>270152
How fucking arrogant do you have to be to judge 500 years of imperial rule as "good" or "bad"?
How full of shit do you need to be to completely dismiss such an influential force as "lol it was bad"?
I cant believe people like you exist, seriously.
>>270133
Peacefully dissolving into many successful and prosperous countries = good
Ethnic cleaning and leaving behind corrupt, bankrupt shitholes = bad
Objectively speaking
>>270162
You just said the Russians are evil for invading.
>>270162
This is my first post in the thread senpai
>>270134
>Just an outsider observation.
Just a shit attempt at shitposting if we're honest. What the fuck that shit has got to do with anything? Do you honestly believe that people are just jealous that Turkey is economically well off? It was an oppressive empire that enslaved it's people, then continued with the politics of ethnic cleansing for centuries.
>>268663
You assume that the Christians living under the Ottoman empire were just as those in Europe, nice generalisation mang.
>>270235
I'm a georgian living in UK. I believe so yes. If modern balkans were more developed and kebabland less they wouldn't give a fuck.
Enslavement and ethnic cleansing signs of all empires, and the ex subject returned the favor on muslim population when they got their independence.
>>268702
Damn, right on
>>270289
to add, for example our focus is more on russia than ottoman, even though there were brief periods of subjugation.
>>270289
I fail to realise what you living in UK has to do with anything? Are you saying how you're better off than Turks so you have risen above the petty squabbles and don't give a fuck anymore? And what is a little genocide once in a while, a speedbump, is that what you're saying?
>>268590
The presence of Muslim in ruling postions is an abomination
>>270320
>imperialism is good only if we do it.
>>270329
Imperialism is not good. But Islam is not compatible with any system of government that allows basic human rights
>>270307
all I'm saying is, hatred towards turks is due to modern shit conditions in Balkans. Its easy to blame turks while ignoring the fact that they are non present in balkans for about a century.
>we are in shit not because we are corrupt, irresponsible and unethical no no no no its the turksshits fault even though they are not here for about a century, and for countries even more.
turkey being stronger is a top of the cherry. and
ethnic genocide happened both ways so to claim only turks did is shit
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cham_Albanians
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Ottoman_Muslims
not saying ottoman empire rule was a bed of roses, but balkan folk should began to look into the mirror in order to answer why their countries are so shit. but scapegoating turks not only shifts the blame but also enforces nationalism, so it is here to stay.
>>268690
>understood price fixing was bad
>banned usury anyway
I'm not expecting Muhammed to have too refined economic thought but damn
>>270359
Ottoman rule was hardly sharia, you had dildomakers guild, weed cafes in Istanbul. Religious laws were not enforced.
Ottoman rule was not sharia rule but byzantinist rule.
>>269240
A lot of the genocide didn't happen until really late in the Empire/Turkey's Republican period
>>270372
>tfw you will never be the Sultan's personal dildo-maker
>tfw you will never go home and 420 blaze it with your 13 year old wives and full-time rent boy.
>>269758
>Based Morocco
>>268590
It's not about how bad or good they were, it's about how they were for a long time the literal nemesis of European civilization. Considering there's a lot of people here who has strong feelings towards stuff that happened decades or centuries ago, and that the main base of anons is composed by westeners, the hate is completely understandable and not surprizing at all.
>>269807
>le barbarian meme
>>270397
in other words muh feels.
>>270383
None of the genocide happened until the very tail end, and even then it was perpetrated almost exclusively by republican reformers.
>>270403
Exactly what I was trying to express. I think we may have repeated the same thing at each other three times actually.
>>270397
If your sources are butthurt Slavs and Hapsburgs then yeah they were the enemy.
In actual western Europe the Ottomans were the ally if anything.
>>270365
Well since I live in Serbia I can tell you my perception of why ottoman rule was bad. Present day poverty is mainly due to nato bombing and economical sanctions from the 90s and has nothing to do with ottomans whatsoever.
Why ottoman rule was so bad though is because when they conquered the place they imposed the laws and way of life that destroyed everything that was there before them. Anywhere from systematic kidnapping of little boys to be bred in the Janissary corps, oppression and forced islamisation that caused several mass exoduses of Serbs from the lands that used to be the origins of Serbian state (and now roughly form territories of Sandzak and Kosovo and Metohija).
The period after Serbia won it's independence in 19th century up until the WW1 is the greatest period in Serbian history, and if that wasnt the clean break from the Ottomans world wars definitely wiped whatever vestiges of ottoman influence for everything bad or good that is happening now, ottoman rule is considered bad for the shit that mainly happened from 1400s up to late 1700s
>>270412
They were only allied with the french and it was a massive scandal, even in France.
>Mehmed II was actually a kind, curious, and ambitious young man who really loved Europe.
>>270418
They also got a lot of help from the Brits, when the Brits got relevant enough in the Mediterranean to have any reason to bother with them. And their weirdly chummy relationship with Venice. And the fact that the Pope and Naples tried to get the Ottomans to save them from the French. The Dutch also allied with the Ottomans.
Really it was only Eastern European civilization that had anything against the Ottomans.
>>270418
They were allied with the British and the French, and that alliance only ended after Germany intervened and caused the north African wars and the Ottomans losing power there.
The joke is that this was originally meant to move France away from Britain, but it only moved them closer together, and away from the Ottomans.
>>269446
They had a hard-on because it was a huge, wealthy and mighty empire. It was advanced, of course, but it is true that it didn't contribute much to culture. Philosophy stagnated during Roman times. Art was inherited from Greeks and Etruscans, as well as arhitecture, and they didn't really change much either. Same goes for technology, it didn't really change with time. The aqueduct, for instance, the pinnacle of Roman architecture was inherited from Greeks and combined with the Etruscan arch. And that's how it stayed, pretty much unchanged until the end of the empire.
>>269446
>Roman empire
>advancing science
Fucking what? The romans didnt invent anything, ever. They conquered people and took what they found there, and brought it back to Rome.
>>270445
>Really it was only Eastern European civilization that had anything against the Ottomans.
No shit! Being in war or subjugated tends to do that you know.
>>270489
I know, my point was that the Ottomans weren't the nemesis of western civilization contrary to what anon claimed.
>>270445
Yeah, no. Everyone in the mediterranean was scared as fuck of them and that's because the Holy League was formed to crush the ottoman power on that sea. The relationship with Vencie was simply the venetians trying to survive, using diplomacy when they could and war when not.
The british only used the ottomans when they needed them when they started to become a world power away form any kind of ideology conerning anyone who wasn't Brit, in times where the Ottoman Empire was already the sick man of Europe and not the threat that everyone feared. The brits had sympathy towards, for example, the greeks and the only reason to help the Ottoman Empire was to hijack russian efforts of balkan hegemony.
Unti it became a decadent parody of it's former self, the Ottoman Empire was always seen as a threat and an intruder. Only those far enough from the turkish threat had any kind of tolerant approach, and always characterized by hate towards the Habsburg monarchy and realpolitik rather than sympathy towards the Ottomans. Those who had no reason to be sympathetic towards the Habsburgs but were close enough to the Ottomans fered or absolutely despised the turks.
>>270505
>and that's why the Holy League
>>270489
Russia and Poland were the aggressor in these wars. And they were never subjugated by the turks.
>>270505
I think the Ottomans are getting the problem here of being viewed as an intrusive other from the beginning when this is not the case.
The Ottomans for much of their history functioned diplomatically like every other European power, trying to defend themselves, and fuck whoever they could given the opportunity through a constantly changing string of alliances to their mutual benefit.
As my point was, the only ones hell bent on the total annihilation of the Ottomans were Russia and the Hapsburgs. Besides that the rest of the European powers were more or less content to leave them to it and occasionally ally with them to keep their mutual enemies down, kind of like all the European powers were doing with each other already.
>Holy League
The Holy League is basically just a brand name for alliances endorsed by the pope or the Holy Roman Emperor. Some incarnations of the Holy League just attacked other Christian powers.
>>270522
I don't know of the reasons behind those wars, but considering ottoman advances to Europe I would suggest pre-emptive strike as a possible reason.
But even if it was full on aggression, my point still stands. Eastern Europeans had far more contact with the ottomans and that's where the animosity stems from. Western Europeans didn't have a negative (or positive) opinion about the ottomans simply because they were too far away and basically, other peoples' problem, not theirs.
>>270553
>Russia and the Hapsburgs
And Poland. And the pope, the venetians and most of the italians when they sensed it was possible without being crushed. Aka literally every European with the turks on their borders. The turks were intrusive, even for the french, they just happened to be useful for them. The "Liever Turks dan Paaps" motto of the dutch didn't mean that they liked the turks, on the contrary, it literally means they saw them as a lesser evil. Considering the ottomans were no menace at all for the dutch, this negative opinion it says a lot.
And I clearly meant the Holy League that defeated the turks in Lepanto. Yes, the one where ottoman greatest ally (according to you) Venice actively participated.
As a Hungarian I don't really mind them and think it was a pretty nice empire, I just hate the fact Hungary became a quasi battleground for 150 years and that effectively nullified most of our medieval heritage not to mention the demographic losses, but its irrevelant that this due to Ottoman occupation as any kind of series of wars stretching that long would had the same effect.
>>270573
>And Poland
Not really to the same extent as Russia or the Hapsburgs. Sure they didn't like the Ottomans, but total annihilation of them and hegemony over the Balkans wasn't particularly high on their goals.
>didn't mean that they liked the turks, on the contrary, it literally means they saw them as a lesser evil.
This is exactly what I'm saying, no countries at this time liked each other - countries don't have friends, they have assets and that was the name of the game for diplomacy. The Ottomans were hugely beneficial to western powers because the prime enemy for western Europe at this point was the Hapsburgs and the Ottomans were the only things standing between total Hapsburg domination prior to the war of Spanish succession. And the French were very keen to exploit this as much as possible.
All in all I can think of very few countries at the time that were consistent allies.
>Yes, the one where ottoman greatest ally (according to you) Venice actively participated.
I understood you meant that one, but my point is that Holy Leagues aren't a united front against an Asiatic invader. It's just a Papist themed coalition against whoever the Holy See deigns to dislike.
Moreover the Venetians weren't the greatest ally of the Ottomans, clearly that was France.
>>270555
I hope you grow to realize that you have the conclusion, and are building links to connect facts to it.
What you should do instead is analyze the facts to come to a conclusion. You will find the ottomans were not "bad" nor "evil".
>>270573
Oh, and before feeling threatened by the Habsburgs, France had and active participation on campaigns to try to supress the ottoman presence on Europe like the crusades of Nicopolis.
>>270608
I already posted the reasons why the Ottoman rule was considered "bad", earlier. Namely oppression of the christian lands they subjugated though enslavement, rape, and ethnic cleansing.
>>269075
>they annexed fucking iceland
I learned something new today, and my sides were ejected.
>>269075
did the ottomans really conquer iceland?
>>270607
>Not really to the same extent as Russia or the Hapsburgs.
The war against the turk was always the priority for the poles, when the nation was not defending itself from another enemy. In fact, I can not think of a significant war where the poles were aggressors where the enemy was not the Ottoman Empire.
And countries in Europe at the time totally liked each other. Despite being at war constantly, Charles V and François I had a very good personal relation, for example. European erudites exchanged correspondence and traveled between countries that were traditional enemies. The turks didn't participate from this, they could receive the visit of Europeans and send their own embassies to share knowledge with Europe like the persians or the indians did, but they were outsiders who belonged to a different ethos. Interested political alliances do not change this.
>>270647
You posted things that have always been done everywhere, and continue being done.
Might as well say that everything ever always was and always will be bad.
>>270647
Honestly, being a Christian in Rumelia was a trip to Disneyland compared to being a Catholic in the UK.
Balkan Slavs need to stop blaming their failures on the Turks 2bh.
>>270651
The map includes parts where random pirates from north africa more or less under ottoman suzerainity raided.
poles aint so butthurt about turks, hell they even respect them for being honourable enemies
serbs on the other hand are eternally assblasted
>>270652
No, a Dutch pirate on the payroll of the Ottomans once raided it.
It's a meme map.
>>270657
>In fact, I can not think of a significant war where the poles were aggressors where the enemy was not the Ottoman Empire.
Except all those failed attempts at conquering the East Slavs.
>And countries in Europe at the time totally liked each other.
Correction, nobles liked each other. Because they were all fucking each other behind the scenes anyway. But the foreign relations of a country aren't the same as the personal relations of a monarch.
Additionally the Ottomans did receive diplomats and open embassies.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_relations_of_the_Ottoman_Empire#Structure
>>270651
It's a meme map, retard.
>>270686
google ottoman pirates/iceland abductions
we stole some cutes from iceland
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Ottoman_conquests,_sieges_and_landings
1627 to be exact
>>270698
fuck off, go spam your shitty maymays elsewhere, Mehmet
>>270708
haha mad
>>270712
find a new shtick m8, this one ins't funny anymore if it ever was
>>268590
They were seriously fucking backwards. It forced all regions it controlled to remain stuck in 15th century, so whenever someone got independent from them they had to play catch-up with Western Europe. Thanks to Ottomans Balkans missed Renaissance, Enlightenment and Industrial revolution.
>>270698
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Ottoman_conquests,_sieges_and_landings
Being an Ottoman pirate sure would be a great job.
>Job description is basically waifu collector and distributor
>>270715
I dont even know what you are talking about. Yes its a meme map, but we still touched iceland. I just think its funny we abducted iceland cuties.
>>270722
OK.
>>270718
>al buttmad
>>270663
They used the Ottoman flag, pretty much declaring loyalty. I think they planted it on some island near Bristol, so technically the Ottomans had land in Britain.
>>270659
Wut? Are you saying those things aren't bad because they happen today?
>>268590
>So, was it really all that bad?
No. It was basically the same as any european empire just with a different religion and culture.
>Or does /his/ just have a hate boner for all things Muslim?
It's mostly just buttblased balkanites and our resident "catholic" memeposters. /his/ is probably the most objective board when it comes to Ottomans. Though this being 4chan, that's not a hard to hit.
>>270744
I am saying these things happen always, everywhere.
You dont get to say X is bad because they do Y, when everybody always done Y.
>>270730
Well those are pretty good reasons to be buttmad
>>270754
There is no good reason to be buttmad considering the Ottoman empire hasn't existed for almost a century now. If you can't do anything about it forget about it.
>>268663
Christianity didn't become a religion by killing everyone that said they were wrong.
>>268684
Voltaire stick to making fun of Germans
>>268590
My bulgarian colleagues want all Turks dead and celebrate the day they freed themselves of their tyranny.
>>270759
I'm sure people would forget about it but Turks keep posting their "WE WUZ CALIPHS" meme here.
>>268688
So cool the balkan people hate it and hate them to this day.
>>270750
I was explaining the reasons why the ottoman rule is considered.
And I can say that, every rule based on Y, (and bear in mind we're talking about enslavement and ethnic cleansing, not some abstract mathematical abbrevation) is a bad rule, regardless of who is behind it.
>>270759
all those regions had to catch up 4 centuries worth of development, like the anon said. perfectly good reason to be buttmad. i'd rather not have to catch up
>>270683
>Additionally the Ottomans did receive diplomats and open embassies
Didn't deny that
>Correction, nobles liked each other. Because they were all fucking each other behind the scenes anyway. But the foreign relations of a country aren't the same as the personal relations of a monarch.
Of course it was mostly the nobles, who were the ones who had an actual relationship with other peoples across Europe. And interpersonal relations is precisely what forges how a people is seen, not foreign relations mostly based on political interests that show little or nothing about if the turk was liked or not.
>>268590
>So, was it really all that bad?
Yes. Europeans who were under the Roman Empire still think fondly back on it to this day. Europeans who were under the Ottoman Empire such as Greeks, Serbs, Croats, Bulgarians, Romanians, Hungarians etc. fucking hate muslims and islam and think turks are the same as cockroaches. That's how shit it was.
>>269758
>Morocco
Is there any good documentaries about Morocco? Especially ones about their relationship with USA.
I always hear about them sticking up for America. But why would they do that?
>>270782
So the Roman Empire was bad.
The Hellenic League was bad.
British Empire was bad.
USA was bad.
Egyptian kingdom as bad.
>>270795
barbarians despised rome, even romans admit it go read tacitus agricola
"they create a desert and call it peace"
or talk to goths and vandals about how they feel about roman invasions of justinian.
its looked fondly because of romanticism, if only ottoman works survive in about 2000 years later. people will trace back themselves to them too.
>>270783
>Of course it was mostly the nobles, who were the ones who had an actual relationship with other peoples across Europe. And interpersonal relations is precisely what forges how a people is seen, not foreign relations mostly based on political interests that show little or nothing about if the turk was liked or not.
That's faulty logic I think.
The fact that King George and Kaiser Wilhelm were cousins and buddies didn't stop the British people calling for German blood because ultimately the monarch's friends have little impact on the actual perception of foreign nations.
If France and the Hapsburgs really liked each other so much it would be very hard to fight a war given the pure lack of morale in the armies, they need propaganda to properly keep it up.
>>270818
>Russia
>true defenders of the West, then like now.
All of my keks
>>270811
Not happening since muslims shits have already been rejected. Slavs are proud of their history of slaughtering you and reject any turk shit. Whereas the Roman empire has not been rejected, since it allowed people to keep their customs graciously - unlike shitslam.
>>270831
Putin is the only sane person on this continent.
>>270800
Morocco was the first non-european state to recognize the USA as a sovereign state.
Also they worked together with USA to stop the berber pirate ships from raiding USA.
And during the American Civil War they arrested confederate diplomats and refused to accept or trade with confederate ships.
After that, when France and England were looking at North Africa and to steal as much as possible from the Ottomans, USA stood behind Morocco and defended their sovereignty.
This honey moon ended when during WWI Morocco joined the Ottomans as an Axis country, and was invaded by Britain and France.
Today I think Morocco is basically an american base of operations in the area, full of american soldiers and dependent on american manufacturers for their airforce and arms.
>>270818
>I think the people you oppressed have the biggest say in how "great" your empire was.
Okay, I'd ask someone who actually lived in the Ottoman Empire if they weren't long dead.
>Shut up turk rat and take your blame like a civilized person.
I'm a Britbong, I just like reminding assmad Slavs that the Ottoman conspiracy isn't the reason their lives are shit.
assblasted euros and slavs always make my day
>>270835
>stirring shit with Ukraine knowing the sanctions would buttfuck his country's economy
Sure.
>>270838
I knew the first 2 parts but not the rest. Thanks
>>270818
>Shut up turk rat
Civilized person, everybody.
>>270811
Psst... the history of how bad muslim shit were and are has been recorded, othe truth about ottoman shits will always be exposed. Go take your sorry ass somewhere else, turk rat.
>>270835
Putin wouldn't be caught dead identifying Russia as "the west" let alone calling it a defender of it.
>>270829
Different times. WW1 happened when nationalism and consciption where still on their heyday. None of these existed until very modern times and the armies of the Habsburgs and the Bourbons didn't fight for nation, but money.
>>270854
Read his interviews idiot.
>>270851
More civilized than you.
>>270854
Putin's dream is for the west to accept Russia in their club.
>>270871
I am not the one calling people rats or insulting them on ethnic background because they proved me wrong on a history board of a hentai forum.
>>270800
the only north african islamic state that was independent of the Ottomans, so they were always in search for support. As the christian nations of europe often weren't too fond of working with muslims, this wasn't that easy.
Then enter new state who tries to do it all differently
>>270866
>I live among the descendants. The all hate turk and muslims shits.
Because they are mad and blame Turks for their life's failures.
Much the same as how Balts are eternally asspained about Russia.
>>270801
Yes. they ruled badly, and their rule is considered bad by the people they subjected.
>>270866
>Usa started shit first aiming to damage the Russians there. He is a good man to defend his people.
More like stirring shit against countries he knows can fuck his nation's economy up. He won't be affected.
>>270887
Because they know what disgusting, horrible, evil pieces of shit the Ottomans were. Still are to this day, as 99% of muslims.
>Turk rat
>Poor grammar
How much do you want to bet that this guy is a Serb?
>>270811
lol
>>270878
The only one who got proven wrong was you, buttmad paki.
>>270896
Americans and british muslim cokcsuckers should apologize to Serbia for the crimes committed against it when they tried to defend themselves against muslim oppressors.
>>270893
I think the real reason the Balkans are such shitholes in comparison to the relative success of Turkey is because the Turks took anyone with any potential out of the Balkans with the Janissaries.
Since anyone with any brains, physical ability or marketable skills was gone to Istanbul it left the Balkans a big pile of genetic refuse. Hence why all the South Slavs of note come from Croatia or Slovenia.
>>270914
That exposes the Ottoman empire as horrible, bad and evil.
![01318449-l[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/enmC1EI.jpg "01318449-l[1].jpg")
>>270907
Fuck off back to /pol/ already, savage.
Your people should be IP range banned from /his/.
>>270920
No, it exposes is as centralized.
Roman Empire also moved anything of value to Rome in its height, people included.
>>270914
Muslims ruining countries, what else is new?
>>270914
>because the Turks took anyone with any potential out of the Balkans with the Janissaries.
how can a newborn have a potential. that is what sort of magic you're supposed to use to recognize potential in a small child?
>>270914
I always found it interesting how european art of Turks constantly flipped between stereotyped pseudo-Arabs and stereotyped Asiatics.
>>270914
Muslims ruining countries, what else is new? The Romans didn't do that and that's why the countries under Roman rule prosper to this day and think fondly of it.
>>270920
Not particularly, because it was frankly better off for the Janissaries that they get to live in one of the most opulent cities in Europe and run their own empire. Then get to retire in relative luxury.
When it was that or be a Serf living in a godforsaken shithole like Serbia you'd think parents would hope for their kids to be Janissaries.
>>268590
The OE was shit and everyone who came in contact with it dislikes it. It only appeals to "we wuz big" Turks.
>>270932
Yeah, except you know.
Literally every country the Ottomans ruled was also part of the Roman Empire?
>>270942
You quoted the same post twice, and gave two different kinds of stupid answers.
First you argue its false, then you argue that even though its true, thats not necessarily bad.
>>270934
I wouldn't want my kids to be turk shits for all the riches in the world. It's because of your selfish thinking that turk rats have been allowed to be evil for so long.
>>270934
>master ruseman
being abducted and enduring indoctrination desensitizing you to murder, then being sent to fight the uprisings when your own people rebel is a fantastic way to live your life, right?
![The_Hitchhiker's_Guide_to_the_Galaxy[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/rrI14Wv.jpg "The_Hitchhiker's_Guide_to_the_Galaxy[1].jpg")
>>270954
Stop being a nationalist /pol/ retard on a history board.
Talk history or fuck off. Insulting based on ethnicity has no historical value whatsoever.
>>270930
Janissaries weren't recruited at birth, shortly before puberty was the ideal.
>>270958
Being taken from your serbian shepherd father and being exposed to education your kind hasnt seen in a thousand years, then made into an officer in the best army of the day, and later being put into a position of power, ruling over your own people and improving their fortunes is a dream I hope you get to experience one day.
>>270963
and? that somehow disproves my point?
>>270991
>Bulgarians are proud of their Roman heritage and hate turks without a second thought.
Pfffwhahwhahahahaahahhaha.
Indoctrinated and clueless at the same time.
>>270966
kek, im at least glad that you're not being serious
>>270958
>Sent off to fight in uprisings
Janissaries weren't really real soldiers, they were a glorified administrative class.
And it sure as hell was a deal better than living in the Ottoman version of the third world.
>>270966
>education
Muslim brainwashing.
>best army
That were the Poles.
>ruling over your own people
Being a brainwashed tyrant made to be a puppet for those who brainwashed you.
>improving their fortunes
Sure that's why their living was shit and they rebelled against it.
Fuck off you turk scum and learn your own history.
>>270989
not him but it's not really that hard to recognize potential in an early teen
>>271005
>Janissaries, the first standing army
>glorified clerks
kek_and_lel.tiff
>>271017
Literally, Janissaries were a tiny portion of the army in any given battle and thousands of Janissaries would never even see combat.
>>271019
>making people to be slaves, oppress them, deny them basic freedom and liberties
>not slavery
All turks should be exterminated tbqh sempai.
>>271025
The janissaries were always either fighting, or building roads and fortresses, or drilling. They were the royal guard, and the sultan's private army.
I just wanted to say any empire that kidnaps my children from me is fucking disgusting and needs to be taken down asap. I want to nurture my own children and grow them myself, I do not want to hand them over to anyone - much less a bunch of foreign oppressors.
>>271014
he's talking out of his ass, the abductions were indiscriminate. are you saying that medeival turkic horde was carefully examining metrics that would suggest someone has potential or not?
>>271019
>Your people lost wars, and got conquered. Thats that. Turkish occupation, not slavery.
true, true, turkish occupation subjugated its christian subjects to extermination and slavery
>>271025
what does it matter what proportion they were?
>>271034
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Janissaries#Decline
Except for that very long time when they gave up on fighting wars and starting sitting around wanking instead.
>>271034
And they were forcibly taken from their parents to serve a foreign power rather than help their own people and family prosper.
>>271043
Serbian niggers can't be trusted to raise kids into anything other than terrorists and bydlo.
>>271046
>medeival turkic horde
I don't really think you could define the Ottomans that way.
>>271032
Senpai, you wouldn't be given basic freedom under Austrians, Brits or anyone, you second class slav mongrel should be thankful that we fucking broke the Ottoman Empire apart and instead letting Turks bland up with your women for another 500 years
>>271056
cn you define them as a society that develops metrics that decide the potential of a child they're going to abduct from its parents and brainwash?
>>271059
who are >we in your post?
>>271064
well, the metrics can be quite simple such as, for example, picking only the big guys
>>271069
t. first class slav mongrel
Serbs should be less mad that the Ottomans culturally enriched them, and more mad that the Croats fucked them over for clay at every opportunity right into the 20th century.
>>271055
Serbians were the good guys in the 90s and anglos can't be trusted to be anything but uncivilized hypocrite brutes. Must be why you're so buttchump with the turks.
>>271059
I've always had basic freedoms lol, had it even under the Austrians and we still kicked them out. Muslims need extermination. PS I'm not a slav. :3
>>271064
>educating mountain savages is now brainwashing
Why do you continue to post the same shit when everybody told you that you are wrong?
>>271077
>Parents paid bribes to make sure it was their son taken, and not the neighbor. It was a privilege.
Not at first, and mostly because of defeatism.
>>271088
>they are going to take my son anyways, might as well pay them
Thats not how defeatism works, imbecile. You could use some ottoman education.
Stay mad serbfags :^)
>>271076
>for you
you do remember that metrics part is a response to the guy who said how ottomans took the brightest and the best and how that is a reason why all the famous slavs are from slovenia and croatia, whichm asi it happens is also not true
>>271085
>brainwashing innocents to be muslim shits and serve a foreign power rather than protect your people
>"educating"
>>271102
That's exactly how defeatism works, ignorant imbecile.
>>271085
if i call you an idiot will you reply how i ran out of arguments and was reduced to ad hominem?
>>271104
People from Serbia famous for something other than attempted genocide . . .
>tumbleweed
>ambient crickets
Why are Serbians pretty much the same as Turks nowadays? Is it because Turks touched them?
Seriously, whats the difference? Only religion. They are both subhuman genocidal maniaks. I seriously cant see a difference between them.
>>271117
You didnt run out of arguments, because you never had any.
All you ever said was lol turksmell turk roaches muh glorious ancestors kill all turk SERBIA STRONK remove kebap.
You never brought any arguments.
>>271102
>conquered by Turks
>forced under their system
>Turks steal babies with resistance at first
>it dawns upon them that the only way to make it and live a decent life is to become a Janissary or otherwise join Turkish society
>not defeatism
>Islamic "tolerance"
>>271123
>turks steal babies
In reality it was "turks draft young adults".
And later it became "locals fight for the honor of their sons being drafted".
>>271122
that wasnt me, please quote what you think were my replies
>>271134
A guy who was born in Croatia.
I saw that one coming a mile away, hence the delicate phrasing.
>>271126
>In reality it was "turks draft young adults".
Stop
>>271137
:^(
>>271134
hardly early teens, and tesla was born in what is now croatia, although to a serbian orthodox priest whose family migrated from ottoman held territory
>>271138
dude, his prophet married a 6 year old girl and fucked her when she was 9, of course kids are merely young adults for him
>>271138
For what reason would an army need babies? Are you retarded?
How would the drafter know if that baby is healthy or not? If its strong or not?
The law literally states take the strongest, biggest, healthiest son of the family.
How can you tell which that is if its a baby?
>>271137
Pretty sure he was born in Austria, and educated in Austria, and worked and achieved in USA.
He only ever came to Serbia twice. First he got sick and nearly died, the second time he got arrested and nearly executed.
>>271162
Oh, the phrasing is what bothers you, not the forceful removal of kids and their subsequent indoctrination at the expense of their own nation. Obviously they were going for kids at 6 and older.
