How do Muslims reconcile the belief that they posses the True Faith with the generally miserable state of their countries? How do they cope with the desire to live in the West?
>>1360188
because the west ruined everything for them
God is testing them.
muh evil crusaders
This is a pretty bad shitpost.
>>1360188
>the generally miserable state of their countries
Like what? Mesopotamia and Afghanistan aren't the majority of the Muslim world. The rest are developing countries like the rest of the world. You might as well say how do Christians think they're right when South America and Africa is miserable? Or how do hindus when they cant poo in the loo
>>1360188
How did the cult of pedo seep into Indonesia?
And should that much of India really be spanned? I'd thought that it was confined to Rajahstan.
>>1360188
Because they recognize that it isn't the explicit reason as to why their countries are in such a miserable state. Also, have you looked at how well the arabian peninsula is doing? This isn't the 1980's anymore.
How do Christians reconcile their beliefs with the shittiness of their countries?
>>1360255
>Developing countries like the rest of the world.
You mean the rest of the world like the fucking developed countries which are predominantly western and have Christian histories? Stupid comment mate.
>>1360290
That's not even including all the parts conquered by Christians.
>>1360296
>You mean the rest of the world like the fucking developed countries which are predominantly western and have Christian histories?
Most of the Islamic world is on par with South America in terms of development. It isn't all mud huts in sandy deserts like you think.
>>1360323
Oh wow on par with South America. That's really quite impressive. They're on par with the continent that has been a corrupt, stagnant shithole filled with murder, coups, and dictators for the past two centuries.
>>1360330
That's how it works when your country is very religious.
>>1360330
Theres this concept called a developing country. Not everywhere is the west, areas of the world began to modernise at different times. Only a fool like yourself looks at a nation doing less well and blames their race or religion rather than history and geopolitics
>>1360330
I notice how South Americans failings is blamed on murder, coups and dictators but the middle easts failings are blamed on Islam, not the murders, coups and dictators that fill the regions recent history, not to mention huge fucking foreign invasions...
They can explain everything with "God knows best" aka "Allahu Akbar"
You just won the lottery?
>Allahu Akbar!
You got home safe and sound today?
>Allahu Akbar!
You're able to provide for your family?
>Allahu Akbar!
Your entire country is consumed by civil war?
>Allahu Akbar!
Best friend just got shot in the head?
>Allahu Akbar!
Basically whatever happens, God intended for it to happen and God also has some epic plan that will turn the horrible thing that just happened into something good in the end.
Resentful /pol/ fantasies about "the decline of the west"
>>1360357
no, there hasn't been any mention of Jewish subversion
Coutries like Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Brunei and some others are rich as fuck thanks to oil which Allah sent them.
Most of other countries are developing
>>1360191
>bcoz le sykes-picot
>>1360357
>only neo nazis hate muslim filth
I don't get it
Why do western liberals champion a religion which goes against everything they stand for? Islam is explicitly expansionist, exploitive, oppressive, violent, and cruel
And so help me if you mention the crusades or inquisition I'll eat my own beard
t. Singh
>>1360447
Just like liberals give support to Sikh terrorists
>>1360447
Learn to read before you post, dummy
>>1360452
#justice4Dev
>>1360458
Learn to stop being a back pedaling faggot
>>1360259
>How did the cult of pedo seep into Indonesia?
Trade.
>>1360290
>Christian
>Countries
Hardly any christian countries left
>>1360352
Its literally the point of the thread
>>1360535
>the present state of a country doesn't matter
>>1360489
Lutheranism is the state religion of finland too
>>1360489
>correctly recognizing Juche as a religion
>4chan
wat
>>1360556
Isnt orthodox state religion of Russia too? At least the goverment has pretty strong ties to it.
Conspiracy theories are very popular in the muslim world. For example, many Palestinians believe Israelis train sheep and pigs to destroy there crops
>>1360372
Most of these countries are still shitholes rife with unemployment and lack of economic prospects for all aside from the thin elite.
>>1360564
There are people in the Western world who believe in a global Muslim conspiracy involving an unknown but shocking number of Muslims. Although they don't get called 'conspiracy theorists', they get called 'Sam Harris'.
>>1360585
Maybe but my point is about the popularity of them in the muslim world
>>1360586
My point is about the legitimacy of them in the Western world, along with popularity.
You can go on prime time television and rant about the global Muslim conspiracy and people will talk to you like you're making sense. You can bring it up in any pub or cafe and people will talk about it like it's a real thing.
You can't do the same on Western media or in Western social gatherings with other conspiracy theories.
>>1360447
Due to the reasons most Muslims champion their own religion as merely harmoniously expansive, fair, free, peaceful and loving: ignorance of history and scripture.
I have yet to meet a Muslim that knows the Muhammad of history (cruel, violent strongman) as opposed to the Muhammad of folktales (the most perfect man ever). According to them the only violent thing he did was fighting in wars, but how that was perfectly justified and not a single innocent was hurt. No one will ever mention about things like ordering hits on people who merely mocked him or taking girls after murdering their fathers, because they've never heard about these (those who did pretend that they're fabrications, even though the sources that tell of these acts are taken as authoritative for other purposes). Fortunately for most people, including Muslims, things like these are reprehensible. Unfortunately they're not going to face the reality of their faith any time soon. The same applies to those liberals who prostrate themselves in front of Islam at every corner. None of them has any real understanding of the history, doctrines and current status of the religion and just go by blind assumptions, which is something like:
a) Islam cannot endorse violence, because the Buddha and Jesus didn't; the Old Testament doesn't count anymore; and all religions are the same therefore Islam must also be 100% peaceful!
and
b) Islamophobia is virulent, omnipresent and Muslims are being rekt all the time, therefore we must consider every member of the entire community as the same (their affiliations with terrorists or criminal records and the like are to be disregarded) and serve and protect them not in the way we would protect a national ie. by the correct and fair application of the law, but in the special way they want
>>1360609
>a) Islam cannot endorse violence, because the Buddha and Jesus didn't; the Old Testament doesn't count anymore; and all religions are the same therefore Islam must also be 100% peaceful!
People never finish this thought. We all agree the OT is the worst advice of all three major Abrahamic religious texts.
It's things like this that lead people to think that the conflict in the Middle East is primarily, ultimately, or proximately religious. It isn't.
>b) Islamophobia is virulent, omnipresent and Muslims are being rekt all the time, therefore we must consider every member of the entire community as the same (their affiliations with terrorists or criminal records and the like are to be disregarded) and serve and protect them not in the way we would protect a national ie. by the correct and fair application of the law, but in the special way they want
The special way they want, the same as other citizens?
>>1360652
>We all agree the OT is the worst advice of all three major Abrahamic religious texts.
That's a non issue. The fact that it is so shows that the "it's all the same man" argument holds no water, but a lot of people disregard that, or suppose that the bad advice thing cannot apply to Islam.
>the conflict in the Middle East is primarily, ultimately, or proximately religious. It isn't.
Which conflict? There are billions of them even right now. And "religious" in what sense, a conflict between Muslims and others?
>The special way they want, the same as other citizens?
I'm referring to things like the caricature fiascos and certain communities demanding Sharia for themselves.
>>1360259
I think in India it's just places where muslims exist. Anyways the map is not a very good one, Oman is not sunni.
They won the crusades and converted the mongols who attacked them
>>1360259
>Indonesia
Trade. Same for east africa. Islam is very attractive for merchants, amongst other things because the importance of the notion of umma. It's normal for geographically separated but ethnically/culturally close to be in contact with each other which creates a solidarity that makes trade easier (see the jews, the armenians or the chinese in South East Asia). Thanks to the notion of umma Islam creates an artificial "nation" that doesn't require you to be born inside it to become part of the group and enjoy the profits of this solidarity.
>>1360674
>That's a non issue. The fact that it is so shows that the "it's all the same man" argument holds no water, but a lot of people disregard that, or suppose that the bad advice thing cannot apply to Islam.
It's not a non-issue,
>Which conflict? There are billions of them even right now. And "religious" in what sense, a conflict between Muslims and others?
It's a religious conflict for Jews and Christians, it's a land conflict for Muslims.
>I'm referring to things like the caricature fiascos and certain communities demanding Sharia for themselves.
All Muslims live under Sharia. This is like saying that Jewish communities demand to follow the Ten Commandments, and to hold Jewish religious courts, and that this is a bad thing.
>>1360560
So do the economical and political elites of Spain with the Catholic Church (and I'm sure we can say the same about most catholic nations).
>>1360712
>It's not a non-issue,
Why? Agreeing that the OT is shit supports my point. What the agreement is about or whether the OT is good or not is a non-issue IN THE SCOPE OF THIS DISCUSSION. If one part of the Abrahamic trinity is not the equal of the other 2 parts, then one of the remaining 2 might also not be the equal of the other part.
>It's a religious conflict for Jews and Christians, it's a land conflict for Muslims.
Again, what conflict are you talking about? The Middle East has been a shithole of war for an entire century at least.
>All Muslims live under Sharia.
And yet for some reason Muslims in the West are judged by secular law, not Sharia law.
>This is like saying that Jewish communities demand to follow the Ten Commandments, and to hold Jewish religious courts, and that this is a bad thing.
Following the Ten Commandments is not the same thing as ruling mutilation for thieves. Individually following anything is not the same thing as forcing others into that thing.
Jews cannot demand Jewish religious courts (at least not outside Israel) because secular nations have secular courts which the Jews and everybody else must submit to.
>>1360550
What present state ? Europe is 73% christian.
>>1360729
>Why? Agreeing that the OT is shit supports my point. What the agreement is about or whether the OT is good or not is a non-issue IN THE SCOPE OF THIS DISCUSSION. If one part of the Abrahamic trinity is not the equal of the other 2 parts, then one of the remaining 2 might also not be the equal of the other part.
So what is the difference? The OT is the worst of the three bibles, but Jews take it least seriously? The Koran is the middle one, and Muslims take it seriously.
>Again, what conflict are you talking about? The Middle East has been a shithole of war for an entire century at least.
The century during which Christians and Jews invaded and colonized the region was more violent than the century that preceded it? WOW.
>And yet for some reason Muslims in the West are judged by secular law, not Sharia law.
Of course. Everyone is subject to secular law. Religious people are subject to their religious law.
>Following the Ten Commandments is not the same thing as ruling mutilation for thieves. Individually following anything is not the same thing as forcing others into that thing.
Yes it is. It's following a religious commandment with that as the justification, it's a religious commandment.
>Jews cannot demand Jewish religious courts (at least not outside Israel) because secular nations have secular courts which the Jews and everybody else must submit to.
Jews have Jewish religious courts everywhere in the world that they live.
>>1360259
>cult of pedo seep
As accurate as pic related.
>>1360188
>How do they cope with the desire to live in the West?
I will never understood that.
If you are a Muslim, go back to Saudi Arabia.
>>1360741
>So what is the difference? The OT is the worst of the three bibles, but Jews take it least seriously? The Koran is the middle one, and Muslims take it seriously.
This has got nothing whatsoever to do with anything I said. Good job.
>The century during which Christians and Jews invaded and colonized the region was more violent than the century that preceded it? WOW.
Put the goalposts down. We're not talking about why the Mid East is a terrible place. We're talking about that mysterious conflict you brought up but failed to name.
>Of course. Everyone is subject to secular law. Religious people are subject to their religious law.
Not unless you can apply that law. Or do you mean in the sense that your God will sort you out in accordance to the requisites of the religion after you die? That still doesn't mean that Western Muslims live under Sharia, because they don't. They can't legally judge people via Sharia.
>Yes it is. It's following a religious commandment with that as the justification, it's a religious commandment.
What is? Following the TC for oneself or imposing religious laws to other people?
A Muslim thief can mutilate himself or ask someone to do it as punishment fit under Sharia. That's his liberty. But Muslims living in a secular state cannot demand what they follow to be applied to everyone, no matter what their justification is.
>Jews have Jewish religious courts everywhere in the world that they live.
[citation needed]
Question(s) for anyone who might know an answer:
What was the predominate school of Muslim jurisprudence under the Ottoman Caliphate? Under Abbasids? And finally, which of the historical schools, dead or living, can be said to be most ""liberal"" within the Sunni tradition? Jariri seems fairly relaxed but it's hard to find any kind of accurate information; I actually have a degree closely related to religion but most of what I can find on these particular topics are too specialized for me.
>>1360741
>Jews have Jewish religious courts everywhere in the world that they live.
Nope, they don't. Unless you mean something alike non-binding arbitration that is not enforceable by state authorities.
>>1360760
>This has got nothing whatsoever to do with anything I said. Good job.
Then you'll have to be clearer when you speak.
>Put the goalposts down. We're not talking about why the Mid East is a terrible place. We're talking about that mysterious conflict you brought up but failed to name.
You just were talking about why it's a terrible place.
>Not unless you can apply that law. Or do you mean in the sense that your God will sort you out in accordance to the requisites of the religion after you die? That still doesn't mean that Western Muslims live under Sharia, because they don't. They can't legally judge people via Sharia.
The 'mysterious conflict' is centred on Israel and Palestine; for Israeli Jews, it's religious, for Palestinians, it's about land.
>Not unless you can apply that law. Or do you mean in the sense that your God will sort you out in accordance to the requisites of the religion after you die? That still doesn't mean that Western Muslims live under Sharia, because they don't. They can't legally judge people via Sharia.
That's secular law. Western Muslims live under the secular law of the country they live in, and they live under Sharia. It's no different than Jews or Christians being expected to follow their religious laws, even if the secular law does not require it.
>What is? Following the TC for oneself or imposing religious laws to other people?
Following them for themselves, of course.
>A Muslim thief can mutilate himself or ask someone to do it as punishment fit under Sharia. That's his liberty. But Muslims living in a secular state cannot demand what they follow to be applied to everyone, no matter what their justification is.
They don't and they won't.
>[citation needed]
You can use a search engine, yes?
'Beth Din'.
>>1360188
I really wish India would have been fully islamized, I'm not even Muslim I just think Hinduism is trash
>>1360188
Ethiopia, most of India, most of Kenya, Eritrea, most of Nigeria... All Muslim, LOL.
>>1360765
>Nope, they don't. Unless you mean something alike non-binding arbitration that is not enforceable by state authorities.
Yes, there is a Jewish religious court practice with the same powers as a Sharia court. Neither is binding by state authorities. Only one is considered to be part of a global conspiracy to kill westerners.
>>1360188
Dont know for Sunni, but Shias expect their lives to be as shitty as possible, as it's a test by God. Only those that managed to slog through the hellishness of life get to enter the kingdom of God (which cant exist on earth and fuck Khomeini for fucking up centuries of Shia doctrine).
>>1360781
What did Khomeini fuck up?
>>1360781
Doesn't help Khomeini's weird quasi-mystical doctrinal inclinations were propped up by the West for a decade.
>>1360768
>Then you'll have to be clearer when you speak.
No, you will have to learn to read.
>You just were talking about why it's a terrible place.
Nope.
>The 'mysterious conflict' is centred on Israel and Palestine; for Israeli Jews, it's religious, for Palestinians, it's about land.
Right, finally we got a name. And yeah, this is the case. How does it relate to what I said about mistaken assumptions again?
>That's secular law. Western Muslims live under the secular law of the country they live in, and they live under Sharia. It's no different than Jews or Christians being expected to follow their religious laws, even if the secular law does not require it.
Religious laws as in observances =! religious laws as in actual laws to be used for settling justice.
>Following them for themselves, of course.
Then why did you quote "Following the Ten Commandments is not the same thing as ruling mutilation for thieves." and "Individually following anything is not the same thing as forcing others into that thing.", 2 sentences built upon contrasting 2 opposites, and said that "it's the same because it's about following religious commandments due to religion"? Did you get confused or did you just wanted to write something even if it was stupid?
>'Beth Din'.
>same powers as a Sharia court.
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
I'm done. It's a waste of time to """argue""" with someone that doesn't even put forth arguments but just makes passive-aggressive circular comments that go nowhere and tries to move the goalposts constantly.
>>1360188
That map is literal shit. Islam doesn't span even half of what is shown in that map.
>>1360796
No it's about right but the numbers of muslims in an area required to colour it green is extremely low it seems.
>>1360795
>Right, finally we got a name. And yeah, this is the case. How does it relate to what I said about mistaken assumptions again?
Most people mistakenly assume it's a religious conflict; but it's only religious in nature for Jews and Christians, for Muslims, it's defending their homes.
>Religious laws as in observances =! religious laws as in actual laws to be used for settling justice.
It is when your religion demands it, as with Jews and Muslims.
>Then why did you quote "Following the Ten Commandments is not the same thing as ruling mutilation for thieves." and "Individually following anything is not the same thing as forcing others into that thing.", 2 sentences built upon contrasting 2 opposites, and said that "it's the same because it's about following religious commandments due to religion"? Did you get confused or did you just wanted to write something even if it was stupid?
They're both justified in the same way. Following the Ten Commandments as written would be about as horrific to us as dismembering thieves. You should read the real Ten Commandments some time. Most people only know one version.
>AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Sharia courts have the same secular power as a Beth Din.
>>1360785
Basically Shia's lost against the Sunnis early on and have been an often persecuted minority ever since. So they concluded that God is putting them on a test and only the virtue of an individual and his faith can bring him to the kingdom of God. This is the reward for getting through life by living by the Shia creed.
So unlike the Sunnis, the Shia (talking in generalisations) never bothered to build empires and their clergy didn't interfere in politics but instead lived in secluded communities searching for guidance on how to live good lives as taught by the Quran.
Then there were some uprisings in the early 20th century with the clergy becoming more and more politicaly involved, which finally resulted in Khomeini and the Islamic Republic.
Is Albania counted as Christian?
500 years of Ottoman rule and conversion, but Christian prior to that.
The ones I know are white, hard working and civilized. I've never asked them about religion but it doesn't seem to impact them in any way really.
>>1360815
Albanians aren't religious at all. Courtesy of Enver Hoxha.
>>1360188
They blame it on the West and the Jews.
>>1360815
The tree of the communism in one state anti-revisionist doctrine gotta be littered with the blood of agitator reactionary religions.
t. Hoxha
Not sure but I think the Christians and Muslims even had a common underground system for smuggling in religious material in the harshest years of Hoxhaism.
>>1360831
And they are correct. We know this, if it weren't for Jews we would *all* be living a paradisiacal life.
>>1360804
So it seems, because only one third of Ethiopians, 10% of Kenyans, 15% of Indians, 36-48% of Eritreans and 30-40% of Tanzanians are muslim.
>>1360188
How Christians reconcile the belief that they possess the True Faith with the generally miserable state of their countries? Latin America, Africa, etc.
Modern, secular western nations don't count considering most people living there are atheistic/agnostic
>>1360733
Pfffft, Europe is at its least Christian state in milennia. Don't lump us all in with that shit
>>1360854
I know you are trolling, but actually more religious regions of Europe are generally well off. Bavaria for example. Poland also is developing at astonishing rate. There's nothing inherent in Christianity that hinders progress.
>>1360188
by realizing political events and life in general have nothing to do with faith.
There are tons of good people suffering, and bad people who are living glorious lives, and vice versa. This life isn't about rewards.
>>1360609
Right, Muslims who know their own history, religious, and culture are wrong, while some fag on 4chan knows exactly what's going on.
Why is it retards like you hold Muslims to this absurdly high standard? Muslims are still human. They are still flawed. What, because a "legitimate" army isn't backing their massacres, it's terrorism, but when white people do it, it's for glory?
It took the threat of nuclear war to get white people to stop killing everything. The closest the Muslims got to being like secular or Christian empires and their evils is when the Ottoman Empire tried acting like the French.
You also make all these claims, site no sources, and ignore the fact that war is shitty. Muhammad was up against pagans who wanted to exterminate all Muslims.
but, then again, this board doesn't have the most well read people.
>>1360758
but that's the least Muslim country in the world.
>>1360859
The rise of communism and nationalism were less religious. and those eras caused WWI, WWII and the cold war.
>>1360859
That's depend on how you define "christian state". The population is definitely less religious now, but not the way in which the government is governed. Europe's ruling parties are now either Christian democratic or non-Marxist socialists. Both of these movements have strong roots in Christian ideology and doctrine.
Compare that to the previous century when you had a mix of Marxists, fascists and nationalists, all of whom were indifferent or even hostile to Christianity which they saw as obstacle to their goals.
>>1360763
I'm no expert on the subject and I can't give an awnser that is not based simply around experience. But in my experience the different schools are not very relevant for the acts of the majority of muslims, most even amongst the zealous have a very basic grasp of islam more based around tradition and culture than scholarly works.
>>1360814
>So unlike the Sunnis, the Shia (talking in generalisations) never bothered to build empires and their clergy didn't interfere in politics but instead lived in secluded communities searching for guidance on how to live good lives as taught by the Quran.
But the Safavi dynasty was founded by the leader of a shia religious sect and the shia clergy was pretty powerful under the Qajars.
>>1360976
>Both of these movements have strong roots in Christian ideology and doctrine.
Then why do no parties in Europe stress the importance of preparation in light of the coming End Times?
>>1360965
why do most muslims think apostasy should be punished with death?
>>1360986
End Times bullshit is a belief typical for Christian Fundamentalism which appeared in America and is completely irrelevant in Europe.
>>1360188
Why do atheists think material wealth and earthly power corresponds with the truth of ones faith or to a blessing from God? The world is worthless and dead.
I say this as a christian.
>>1361075
>Stop posting.
Wat?
>>1361072
Yeah, whoever gave them that idea?
>>1361102
>I think catholics are mislead by demons and that their clergy and theologians are actualy satan worshipers.
You are absolutely deluded then.
>>1361111
Their wealth and power works against them in this respect.
It is also the only response to denominationalism, one denomination must necessarily be influenced demonically. I of course don't believe mine is.
>>1361084
>Saint Augustine literally argues to not associate worldly power and wealth with validity of Christianity
>1500ish years later cathoshits display their obnoxiousness to prove their religion as true
read city of god.
>>1360984
Yeah that's why I said generalizations. Of course I can't resume an entire religion in a 400 words post.
>>1361240
Well you were talking about Khomeini,an iranian, and I'll say that those two examples resume better the recent history of religion in his country than saying "they never bothered to build empires and their clergy didn't interfere in politics". It's also worth nothing that we're talking about the most relevant shia nation.
>>1360188
The same way Christians and Jews do when things are shitty for them, God is punishing us for our sins.
>>1361117
the only response is not falling for innovations of the last 500 years that gave rise to thousands of denominations, liberalism and the modern society.
>>1360447
Because fuck the west.
>>1360290
Mexico is Catholic with a bit of santa muerte worship.
>>1360348
:^)
>>1360290
>Syria 10% to 50% Christian
Not anymore ;_;
One Bump
Because West isn't some objective "good" and you can enjoy whatever life you are given provided you aren't depressed or lured into the rat race.
>>1360188
Eh. Muslim countries are shitholes because of anti-usury laws.
They will never able to finance any shit they do and businesses just languish.
They only make money because they have oil. Once it runs out they will all be major shitholes again.
>>1360489
the fuck is this meme map and why is it so wrong
>>1360348
That's because different countries have different problems.
I just noticed Africa is like the middle east + south America.
Islam + corrupt dictators = worst country
>>1360188
How do Christians deal with the fact that our societies only advanced in parallel with the pace that their doctrine was moderated and not taken literally by anyone important?
>>1360352
>I'm not touching you!!!!!
>>1364204
They invest in a ton of shit and have huge funds let but nice sour grapes.
>>1364257
>I just noticed Africa is like the middle east + south America.
No not really
>>1364293
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-10-21/saudis-risk-draining-financial-assets-in-five-years-imf-says
They invest in a lot of shit, but not wisely.
If you can't finance projects through usury you can't have a modern economy.
Q.E.D.
>>1360568
And anything but Europe NA and Australia are Christian shitholes.
Only Buddhism has a good record.
>>1360188
Most of the muslim world has been buttfucked by communism AND dictatorship.
Not being on par with the western world who had a 3 centuries hegemony on the world isn't something to be ashamed of btw.
>>1364309
In other places they have interest rates but disguise it as some friendly "totally not interest" thing.
>>1360188
They blame jews and white people.
>>1364311
>Only Buddhism has a good record.
Check out Thailand or Burma.
>>1364374
The former is developing but you are right in the latter but its only like 1 nation.
>>1364392
Then you have another ones: Bhutan and Cambodia. Tibet is also an absolute shithole despite China pumping a shitton of money there.
>>1364316
>Not being on par with the western world who had a 3 centuries hegemony on the world isn't something to be ashamed of btw.
And nothing to be proud of
>>1360535
Western Europe*
Eastern Europe is shit. Source: I live there.
>>1364441
>Eastern Europe is shit. Source: I live there.
Where do you live? Poland or Czech Republic are pretty comfy right now.
>>1364414
Nothing to be ashamed of implies that.
>>1360188
Some believe that that its a test, others believe its not our fault and I am sure that some people like me believe its partially our fuck up and partially not our fault but thats with most things.
>>1364445
Romania. Everyone here works their ass off for $200 a month, while corrupted shitheads live in luxury. Oh, and no one takes anything seriously until someone dies.
>>1364464
Fair enough, though I do not know whether Romania is representative for the whole region.
Pic somewhat related. Warsaw.
>>1360188
>Oman is Sunni
>Ethiopia, Tanzania and Kenya are muslim nations
>INDIA IS MOSTLY MUSLIM
It might as well color most of Europe and the US as Muslim, since you could probably find Muslims there.
>>1364464
Just go on youtube videos about dacia and claim its the best country on earth
Whats the deal with people from shitholes (not necessarily you) being unjustifiably patriotic?
>>1364505
>>1364488
The map is showing what sort of Muslim the Muslims are in areas with Muslims over 10%
>>1364510
Oman is still completely wrong.
>>1364505
You can call it the pit hole of the earth, I don't mind it. I do it myself too. Everyone's here like ''hurr durr we're Romanians, our tradition is so cool, we're like brothers''. Bunch of idiots who stab each other from the back, really.
>>1364487
I've been talking with some guys from Serbia, and they claimed it's worse there than in my country. Same goes in Moldova.
>>1360976
Commies are just Christfags 2.0 anyway. Same autism.
>>1364299
>No not really
Nice rebuttal Lmao
Why even make a reply like that
>>1360535
>and her people is christian
Tiny minority are practicing christians these days.
>>1360585
But Sam Harris is right.
>>1367344
Sam Harris is based.
>>1361102
Don't lie, you don't actually think. You never learned how to do it.
>>1363268
>le catholics aren't christian meme
>>1364505
>Whats the deal with people from shitholes (not necessarily you) being unjustifiably patriotic?
Well, you should come to the conclusion yourself.
Patriotism gives you pride.
And you need that in a depressive life.
Also, people can take your house and your health but not your ethnicity away.
>>1364316
the islamic world had the hegemony for centuries during the middle ages, and less than a century before the independence of the USA and the French Revolution, the Turks tried to conquer Vienna.
>>1365579
Just saying it isn't.
>>1360188
Because knowing what's up doesn't necessarily equate to having a powerful country.
>>1360290
By knowing that pretty much every decent country to live in aside from two or three is mainly christian.
>>1364507
B-but neither ancient Chinese nor ancient Greek are the same as modern Chinese and modern Greek...
The rest of the rant doesn't seem to involves falsehoods though, but I'm not going to fact check everything.
>>1360965
troll
why do muslims go to great lengths to defend their dumb religion?
at least pick a cult that is beneficial for your own kind (and worth defending) instead of sulking in self-delusional end of the world fantasies
>>1360188
A lot of them would still be living in the Middle East if there weren't wars there. And the largest number of refugees are living in Islamic neighbour nations.
>>1360188
Dutchfag here. One of my former professors, who lived in Iran during the revolution, actually wrote an article about this for a pretty high-brow magazine (Elsevier).
http://www.elsevier.nl/nederland/blog/2015/01/in-de-geest-van-de-moslim-de-islamitische-trots-verklaard-1682562W/
It's in Dutch, but you can either use google translate or read the tl;dr I'm giving you right now.
>The Qu'ran explicitly states that Muslims are the best of all creatures and unbelievers the worst of all creatures on this planet
>"Muh Islamic golden age"
>Muslims started looking around them ever since the scientific revolution and saw they were getting behind
>They now had to buy Western weapons to defend themselves from the West
>Napoleon kicked around in Egypt, spreading liberal ideas
>A century or so later the Ottoman Empire collapses
>"What now?"
>Some people think those Westerners might have the right idea about Liberalism and stuff, but that means abandoning the idea that Muslims are the best
>Other Muslims believe that they are indeed the best of all peoples
Here's that conflict you talk about: how do they bring their superiority complex in harmony with the shit state of their nations and Western supremacy? Have you tried a little thing called Radical Islam?
>Believing in the truth of the Qu'ran, some people truly believe that good Muslims are superior to unbelievers
>But if the Islamic World is a shithole, that must mean most Muslims are not true Muslims (or hypocrites as the Qu'ran calls them)
>A new order must be established that is truly Islamic and all hypocrites must be exterminated
>Only then will the Islamic Golden Age return, and will Muslims become the best of all creatures as the Qu'ran promises them
In other words: "radicals" believe that the Islamic world is shit because it's not Islamic enough. Others, like Atatürk (who are often secular btw), want to pursue a Western model. This is the great conflict of the Islamic world today.
>>1368987
jesus christ
It's like they're still in the middle ages, and they technically are because they're 600 years too late.
I mean, europeans settled this hundreds of years ago, and peacefully I might add during the enlightenment
>>1369131
Nothing was settled in Europe. In the 20th century there was a great conflict between the modernist and reactionary forces.
This sort of movement springs whenever people feel like they are not getting their slice of the pie.
>>1369135
Involving christians, and manifested in physicality? Breh, the church has moved on with the times, islam just can't compare to the progress christians have made
![Zweischwerterlehre_(Dresdner_Sachsenspiegel,_Karl_von_Amira)[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/B5bMByn.jpg "Zweischwerterlehre_(Dresdner_Sachsenspiegel,_Karl_von_Amira)[1].jpg")
>>1369131
>I mean, europeans settled this hundreds of years ago, and peacefully I might add during the enlightenment
>during the Enlightenment
Nice meme. Pic related (I couldn't find a good picture) is one from the Middle Ages that shows the "teaching of the two swords". It's a philosophical idea which states that Christ handed two swords to the worlds leaders, a temporal sword to kings and emperors and a spiritual sword to popes and bishops. The idea behind this (though factually some friction always remained) was that kings and emperors had supremacy over worldly affairs while popes and bishops had supremacy over religious affairs, and neither could wield any power over the other's fields.
The distinction between divine and profane, spiritual and temporal, even appears in the Pauline epistles. Or what about the actions of Jesus, who according to New Testament canon never held a political office and told his followers to render unto Caesar what is Caesars? The Enlightenment did not split church and state as much as Christian doctrine separating Church and State allowed the Enlightenment to happen. It's very popular to say that Islam needs an Enlightenment, but that's literally impossible due to the very nature of Islam. It cannot be disconnected from the political reality without being discarded wholesale.
And then there's also the fact that Christianity never (at least canonically) had a superiority complex. The New Testament constantly states that none are without sin and that we are saved by grace, not by our own deeds. Even the "gospel in a nutshell" (John 3:16) emphasizes God's love for humanity as a whole (compare Islam that constantly states Allah does not love the unbelievers).
It's a fundamental difference between the religions. The cultures did not shape the religions, but the religions shaped the cultures. As long as Islam exists, it cannot go forward. It can only go backwards.
They probably blame Jews or America, or both.
They probably also blame Baathism, secularism, capitalism, imperialism, or economics or any other reason except their religion and culture.
>>1369139
Interesting. Is islam inherently more political than christianity? Christians had canonical law and muslims had sharia, but has christian nations always been more secular?
Also, the point I think I was trying to make is that copernicus faced a genuine threat of being burned on the stake if he wasn't careful in explaining and proving his heliocentric theory, but then the ecclesiastics saw it themselves and couldn't argue against it anymore. I just get the impression that the pope lost more power with the rise of Protestantism and 30 years war and all and by the 18th century, thinkers that pretty much set the standard for modern secular europe started appearing a lot more, whereas in the middle east, many countries are basically theocracies whereas this is non-existent in europe, unless you consider the vatican a country.
>>1369174
>Interesting. Is islam inherently more political than christianity?
No it depends how you want to take it
>Christians had canonical law and muslims had sharia, but has christian nations always been more secular?
Again its down to interpretation, if Christians, like some do, decide to follow the OT, then theres huge grounds for an endless corpus of law. Similarly Muslims can choose to disregard the hadith which gets rid of most of Sharia law. Laws in the quran are mostly about inheritance and freeing slaves if you're bad.
>>1360965
>Why is it retards like you hold Muslims to this absurdly high standard?
>What, because a "legitimate" army isn't backing their massacres, it's terrorism, but when white people do it, it's for glory?
thanks for the laugh.
When the day comes where muslims no longer are responsible for 90-99% of world conflicts, murder and terrorism I'll start respecting you.
>>1369196
Pretty sure the current wars in africa are more about tribalism than religion. Though i guess some of them are that also.
>>1369214
Which ones? Kenya and Nigeria definitely has problems with jihadism, boko haram in nigeria and al shabaab in kenya.
Kenya is pretty depressing, since most muslims there seem to support al shabaah whereas in Nigeria which is about 50/50 christian/muslim there's solidarity against boko haram.
I think it's because kenyan muslims suspect the kenyan government is behind assassinations of religious leaders suspected of recruiting jihadists, true or not. I don't remember, I think vice did a pretty good cover on it (yeah I know >vice)
>>1369174
You're probably right about the rise of Protestantism limiting the power of the papacy, and the Enlightenment probably was very important for cementing Europe's secular tradition, but it was not an idea that fell out of the sky. I just wanted to show that it was Christian tradition that opened up that route in the first place, a route that has always been closed off in Islam.
As for Islam being inherrently political, you just need to look at the life of Muhammad, or this thing called "political Islam". Most conservative Muslims see religion and politics as two sides of the same coin.
>>1369188
>if Christians, like some do, decide to follow the OT, then theres huge grounds for an endless corpus of law
Which is a big problem considering OT law itself dictates that it should be abandoned once a new lawgiver arises. This is why Jesus so famously said he came not to abolish the Law but to fulfill it. Christians see him as that new lawbringer who brings a new law that overrides the old one.
>Similarly Muslims can choose to disregard the hadith which gets rid of most of Sharia law.
It also gets rid of most of what we know about Muhammad and his life. The Hadith are best compared to the Gospels rather than the Old Testament. We could still have some kind of Christianity with just the Pauline epistles, but leaving out the gospels takes away a lot of the meat of the religion.
Also
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sources_of_sharia
The Qu'ran itself is considered by Islamic tradition to be the first and primary source of Islam. Even if you abandon the hadith (which is heresy according to most mainstream sects of Islam), you still would not get rid of some of the most unsavory parts of Sharia law.
>>1369196
>When the day comes where muslims no longer are responsible for 90-99% of world conflicts, murder and terrorism I'll start respecting you.
Wow i didnt know the last 20 years were all of human history.
Also, calling that violent events is bullshit, thats a list of terrorism
>>1369241
>Also, calling that violent events is bullshit, thats a list of terrorism
Not him, but that's exactly the problem. It's not a war where nation A fights against (the interests of) nation B, it is terrorism. It is a non-war intentional attack on the innocent. And in that regard, Islam has a damn near monopoly.
>>1369232
>The Qu'ran itself is considered by Islamic tradition to be the first and primary source of Islam. Even if you abandon the hadith (which is heresy according to most mainstream sects of Islam), you still would not get rid of some of the most unsavory parts of Sharia law.
You lose all death penalties, you lose stoning, you lose circumcision, you lose burqas, you gain religious freedom, you lose jizya
>>1369247
Most terrorism isn't Islamic, but most Islamic terrorism succeeds while the rest fails.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorism
>>1369255
I'd love to see the source and how it defines terrorism. Something tells me that a bunch of buttmad Corsicans throwing bottles at the police counts as an act of terrorism.
>>1369258
Its from Europol
>>1369241
Firstly, all of them are secular wars except for one and my opinion is that secular wars are less evil than religious ones.
Secondly, I didn't live 60 years ago so this doesn't apply to me as much. Sure, holistically world war 2 has set a precedent for today, but there's no threat from Germans conquering my country and sending me to a political dissident camp. Frankly I just don't care what happened at Agincourt or whatever because it's not relevant, it's sidestepping and a desperate attempt at deflecting. Also, the colonization is a nice touch on that list, consider all the deaths come from diseases like smallpox which is regrettable.
Thirdly, people have learned. People have changed. I have more respect for that than a people who still use their religion as pretexts for conquest and terrorism (of innocents I might add). Even scummy countries like Russia, while operating with questionable means, knows that holodmor or gulag camps are not tolerated anymore. Let's just summarize this as "it's [CURRENT YEAR]".
Muslims need enlightenment, europeans, even though they've historically done a lot of evil shit generations ago, aren't the geopolitical problem of today. In fact I'd argue that the west is too lenient, like Merkel, jesus she's taken political correctness and white/german guilt to the extreme.
The probability of me being killed by a political action is islam, not basque or irish nationalists, not Putin, not nazi germany, and not Henry V 600 years ago
>>1369279
>Firstly, all of them are secular wars except for one and my opinion is that secular wars are less evil than religious ones.
I dont care, dont go around claiming muslims are the only people who kill people when its total bullshit and you're cherry picking recent history. You're the one using CURRENT YEAR
>>1369291
It's not cherrypicking. Most terrorist actions against us in the west are committed by muslims and then you deflect with wars that happened ages ago which isn't relevant.
Of course I never said "muslims are the only ones that kill people", that's asinine. They are definitely the most brutal though
>>1369296
in recent events* I meant
>>1369248
>You lose all death penalties, you lose stoning, you lose circumcision, you lose burqas, you gain religious freedom, you lose jizya
I don't know enough about the details of Sharia law, but if you remove the hadith then what exactly remains? I find it hard to believe everything would be peaches and cream if we just throw out the hadith. That sounds like it's so easy, it makes you wonder why nobody actually bothered doing it.
(((hadith)))
Muslims say it's heretic to consider them since it's not the Quran, yet use it for jurisprudence. What gives?
>>1369302
The Quran remains. Sunnis will flip out at you if you say get rid of the hadith. It's their corruption of Islam, to rely on texts written centuries after Muhammad and the Quran. They indoctrinate young muslims into believing theyre essentially, but they arent and quranism is a growing movement.
>>1369304
two different sects. Sunnis believe in the hadith, quranists say its not needed
>>1360188
http://www.imranhosein.org/articles/signs-of-the-last-day/76-ten-major-signs-of-the-last-day-has-one-just-occurred.html
>>1360188
They think they will have hell on this earth but peace in the afterlife
>>1369139
>It's very popular to say that Islam needs an Enlightenment, but that's literally impossible due to the very nature of Islam. It cannot be disconnected from the political reality without being discarded wholesale.
That's not actually true, and is mostly propaganda pushed by Islamist groups who, surprise, are highly invested in the idea of political Islam.
>>1367731
Yeah and they were far better off than everyone else until Mongols. Right when the Renaissance starts kicking off the Islamic world is getting absolutely rolled by Eastern invasions for centuries. After the fall of the Ottoman Empire it's been Britain, France, Russia, and the US playing proxy across the entity of the Islamic world.
>>1369131
>Europe
>settled
>peacefully
Jesus fuck.
>>1360188
>How do Catholics reconcile the belief that they posses the True Faith with the generally miserable state of their countries (see Latin America and parts of Sub-Saharan Africa) How do they cope with the desire to live in the West?
>How do Protestants reconcile the belief that they posses the True Faith with the generally miserable state of their countries (see Sub-Saharan Africa)? How do they cope with the desire to live in the West?
It's because it's not about religion, cultural relativist. Muslims countries were once above that of the Europeans in health, economy, military, education, etc. Even today, countries like Brunei, Morocco, Turkey, and Oman boast tremendous wealth. Other countries are worse off, obviously. Yet this discrepancy is the same for the entire world, regardless of faith.
Muslims act like they're victims as minorities (in Western countries, even), while receiving funding from muslim-majority countries which discriminate religious (sometimes ethnic even) minorities even more than the West did to muslims. Such injustice, but they think it's not, because Islam is No. 1 and other religions must be beneath it.
t. non-muslim living in a muslim-majority country.
>>1369139
>It's very popular to say that Islam needs an Enlightenment, but that's literally impossible due to the very nature of Islam. It cannot be disconnected from the political reality without being discarded wholesale.
That's where you're wrong, kiddo.
See: Mustafa Kemal Ataturk, Gamal Abdel Nasser, Muamar Gaddafi, Hafez Al-Assad, Saddam Hussein, Baathism, etc.
>>1369296
>Most terrorist actions against us in the west are committed by muslims
Lol this is bullshit.
In the whole of the west, left-wing terrorists have been the most dominant throughout recent history.
>>1360255
If you think south Americans take religion as seriously as even the most secular muslim country you need to fucking kill yourself.
>>1372464
Lol. Traditionally Christian homelands (yes I'm counting the Americas) are wildly more successful than those of traditional Muslim homelands.
Comparing the two is laughable and you know it, Islam had a good period but it's shit now. You can admit it.
>>1372567
>he fell for the Baathists aren't sectarian meme
>>1372630
What the fuck are you taking?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Islamist_terrorist_attacks
>>1372650
And at one time "traditional Christian homelands" were piss poor while the Muslim world was the center of education, science, philosophy, etc.
>"b-but muh mudslimes is all stupid! muhamad was a murdering pedo!"
The Arab World suffered repeated blows starting with the sack of Baghdad by the Mongols, then the Ottoman Empire, then Sykes-Picot and Western support of the Wahhabi Saudis. Muslims regions of Africa have declined from tribal conflicts thanks to European drawing of borders. Central Asia was always destined to be poor.
>>1372674
I mean we can compare religious dick lengths all you want but the fact you can't change is that Christian countries are doing better than Muslim countries today.
It isn't that bad to acknowledge the Quran has its flaws. It was written with a medieval society in mind, but nowadays Islam needs a reformation to keep up with the modern world.
Also I kind of take issue with a few points in your last paragraph, though some may be fully attributed to my ignorance:
Weren't the ottomans a regional powerhouse for Muslims? I know they were relatively secular but they spread the faith damn well.
What do you mean central Asia was always destined to be poor?
And is the drawing of borders across Africa by Europeans just further proof that multicultural societies inevitably fail?
>>1372661
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_non-state_terrorist_incidents
You'll find that the 70's-90's have their own categories. Why? This time periods, coinciding with the 'Golden Age of Terrorism', was dominated by Left-Wing groups, separatists, and criminal organizations. The acts done by such groups will always outweigh those of wahhabis.
>>1372700
Damn, you're not wrong.
I guess "recent terrorism" to me meant 9/11 and forward.
>>1360845
satire?
>>1372697
>Christian countries are doing better than Muslim countries today.
Belgium might be doing better than Afghanistan, but Kuwait is doing much better than Colombia.
It's idiotic to compare faiths based upon countries. Such comparisons will be riddled with discrepancies. A better method is to analyze history, which people like you refuse to do.
>Islam needs a reformation to keep up with the modern world.
Since you're so knowledgable of Islam, what can you tell me about Sufism? What are the Five Pillars? What is Ijtihad? Who utilizes Taqiya?
>Weren't the ottomans a regional powerhouse for Muslims?
You can't say "for Muslims". They killed Muslims to gain control of Mecca and Medina, and they had a pretty famous conflict with Muslims in Persia. Secondly, the Ottomans were strong and flourished in their early days but failed to modernize due to their political structures.
>What do you mean central Asia was always destined to be poor?
It lost all significance with the Silk Road. Afterwards, it became a bunch of satellite states for Russia. The region suffered even more after the fall of the USSR.
>And is the drawing of borders across Africa by Europeans just further proof that multicultural societies inevitably fail?
No, it's proof that Europeans aren't as intelligent as they like to pretend to be.
>>1372752
You're getting awfully defensive about your faith. Listen to what I'm fucking saying:
STATISTICALLY, CHRISTIAN COUNTRIES ARE DOING BETTER THAN MUSLIM COUNTRIES.
Denying faith had a part in that is fucking childish, which is not surprising coming from you.
Are you denying that Islam is backwards? Homosexuality is illegal in most of the Middle East. Women are completely subservient to men. This may sound like paradise to some but the west values freedom of choice. The civilized world as we know it today was built upon the foundation of Judeo-Christian values, none of which stemmed from the Quran. What did stem from the Quran is the miserable shithole that is the Middle East.
You have a serious inferiority complex when it comes to Europeans dude. You can be proud of your ancestors achievements, but blaming their failures on others is, again, childish.
>>1372789
>STATISTICALLY, CHRISTIAN COUNTRIES ARE DOING BETTER THAN MUSLIM COUNTRIES.
This is little to do with faith. Do you think Europeans were thinking of Christ when they fought each other for boundaries? Do you think Americans were thinking of Christ when they invaded Iraq? Do you think Westerners think of Christ when they subscribe to a system that promotes usury? No, they didn't/don't.
The current status quo has nothing to with religion. Rather, it is based upon history. Europeans got access to the New World and its resources while China fell to the Manchus. France conquered Algeria while Gran Colombia fell apart.
>Are you denying that Islam is backwards?
Subjective. And you still haven't answered my questions over Islam.
>What did stem from the Quran is the miserable shithole that is the Middle East.
If you ever opened a book, you'd realize the Middle East has ALWAYS been a place of war. For numerous reasons, everyone has wanted to control it. This has been truth even before Khalid's armies entered the area.
With all that being said, it's clear that the West benefits from turmoil in the ME. Arab Nationalists, having been backstabbed by the West following WW1, sought to reject Western influence in their areas. Additionally, Arab Nationalists sought to overthrow the backwards monarchies (that which controlled most of oil). The West wouldn't be able to stand either of these events, so it actively fought against Arab Nationalism. Little did the Westerners know that by weakening Arab Nationalism, the Saudi monarchy was free to spread its Wahhabi ideology.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wahhabism#Alliance_with_the_House_of_Saud
>>1365601
what?
>>1372878
You forgot to mention Qtibism.
>>1372950
Qutbism is a meme. It's Wahhabism under a different name. It wouldn't exist without Wahhabism.
>>1360601
>You can't do the same on Western media or in Western social gatherings with other conspiracy theories.
>what is modern feminism for the past decade
>>1360188
How come Shia has survived this long when they're outnumbered like 10 to 1?
At least with Catholicism, Protestantism and Orthodoxy you have a more or less 1/3 per branch split among europeans
>>1360970
Communism and nationalism are more or less religions with a different focus.
>>1369196
90%+ of the victims of those attacks were also Muslims.
But painting millions of people with one broad stroke is more convenient, isn't it?
How to be ignorant
>There is strife in this land
>It is because of either
>A: Their Race
>B: Their religion
But what about the long term historical, social and economic reasons
>Naaaahhhhh it's because they're niggers, sandniggers, muzzies, poointheloo,spearchuckas etc!
>>1369196
>chechen seperatism is the same as jihadism
But that's wrong, just because a nationalist group originates from a predominantly islamic part of the world doesn't automatically make them jihadist, that's really fucking stupid. Are the Kurds jihadists too?
>>1372630
So it's left wing people we should be persecuting, not muslims, finally /his/ you're talking some sense.
>>1370148
People have literally been saying that shit since abrahamic religions started. Except now it's REALLY ON GUYS I MEAN IT THIS TIME 2012 WAS JUST A TEST TO SEE IF YOU WERE SERIOUS.
>>1372752
>Kuwait is doing much better than Colombia.
So long as you're an actual Kuwaiti and not one of their migrant workers that is.
>>1360188
They were doing pretty well until the islamist movement took hold
