>Christ is the Western equivalent of the Buddha.
Discuss
>>1204479
That's wrong but okay.
I thought Epictetus was the Western Equivalent of Buddha.
>>1204479
Only in the sense of religions coming to be founded in response to them but what they actually preached or taught could hardly be more different.
>>1204479
Yo! SHITPOSTER! Do you have a logical well thought out opinion on this or are you just throwing bait out there?
The key and irreconcilable difference is in their deaths. The Buddha died peacefully as a product of his teaching, while Christ died painfully to fulfill his. The importance of suffering in Christianity keeps a Buddhist-Christian synthesis from happening. Perhaps it is possible with the Orthodoxy's focus on the deification of man.
No, not at all. Christianity is about strength and glory through suffering, whereas Buddhism revolves around becoming indifferent to suffering. Buddhists fast to build indifference, Christians fast to increase sensitivity.
Not sure about that but Eastern Orthodoxy could be said to be the most closest to Buddhism of all the Christian denominations
>>1204525
Orthodox believe God suffers, so that doesn't really change anything.
>>1204531
The Mahayana does have the Bodhisattva ideal which strive towards the salvation of all creatures before oneself. The Theraveda may be more "individualistic" but they have a system of merit where living family members or the living can aid in giving the departed more good karma or something to be reincarnated into a better life.
>>1204479
If you remove the old testament, yeah, sort of. If you view him from a purely philosophical standpoint and look at the "son of God" angle as either a metaphor for enlightenment or a white lie he used to get more people to listen to his peaceful philosophy for the greater good, then I can see him being viewed as a Buddha born of western tradition. You *do* have to view the book through the lens of history though, the authors were probably Greeks writing to convert other Greeks.
>>1204541
Correct me if I'm wrong, but the Passion is not the Orthodoxy's main focus, right?
>Levant
>West
>>1204542
Christianity is about looking to yourself before trying to tell others about their sins.
They're not comparable religions. Christianity says the righteous aren't promised any sort of karmic reward, in fact it says if you are righteous you will probably be screwed over. They're completely incompatible religions. They have in common ascetic practice and praying something over and over in silence for long periods, but beyond that the similarity ends, and it is wrong to both religions to try to syncretize them or force artificial similarity, it will only distort both faiths..
Jesus was an apocalyptic rabbi who was re-imagined as God by people who never met him. Compared to the handful of Jesus' sayings, we have far more information on what the Buddha taught.
>>1204549
I mean God suffers because we do, it hurts God to see us suffer.
The Passion is not any kind of focus as far as spiritual focus goes. None of our icons depict Christ on the cross except after his death. The Passion is crucial as a step to Christ's conquest of death, but it is not to be considered abstracted from that.
>>1204558
Like what?
>>1204556
There are certainly opposing differences between Buddhism and Christianity. But I'll accept that there are points of agreement and similarity
>>1204552
>Dominated by Rome
>inhabitants spoke koine Greek as well as Aramaic and Hebrew
>apostles spread out mostly to the west
Yeah.
Side discussion: with all the evidence for Thomas in India (and insular sect of Indian christianity) can we have a discussion about Christianity in Persia and India?
>>1204568
There aren't really except asceticism and constant prayer. Cosmetically they might look the same because of all the monks, but Buddhism strives toward oblivion, whereas the core and central experience of Christianity is physical communion of God by eating his body.
>>1204572
>Christianity in Persia and India
It was larger Nestorian, yeah? I remember reading somewhere that western travelers in the Mongol empire were surprised to find communities of Christians as far as China.
>>1204574
Fanaticism aside, can we just look at that as a ritual to remind the followers of the importance of sacrifice?
If you treat Christian ritual like excercises in philosophy it becomes way more interesting and reconcilable with modern materialism/eastern philosophy.
>>1204574
The whole nirvana thing doesn't really entail you becoming "nothing" or ceasing to exist. It is meant to escape the bonds of samsara and hence need not be reborn no longer. They also have a sort of theology of the Icon
RFeminder that Jesus was nothing more than a buddhist, possibly hitting stream entry (meaning an aryan who has sen the retardation in the self and who as seen the buddhist ''morality''), but clearly not an aharant=an awaken (otherwise he would not be theist).
buddha>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>JEsus
>>1204574
>Buddhism strives toward oblivion, whereas the core and central experience of Christianity is physical communion of God
Buddhism, at least Mahayana, strives to seek the very same communion. It has the Trikaya, the three bodies of the buddha- the created body which exists in time and space, the god body, and the cosmic body which encapsulates the true nature of reality. The goal is to seek union with the cosmic body by understanding, rather than knowing, the true nature of reality.
>>1204592
It's not the same communion at all, since the communion is physical in Christianity, hence the importance of physically eating God's body. This sanctifies one's own body, and allows you to partake of the immortality Christ's body had, so yours can come back from the dead as well, being part of his.
>>1204593
That is correct but you cannot deny that a sort of theology of the icon is there. Making a Buddha image literally contributes to your salvation
>>1204531
>whereas Buddhism revolves around becoming indifferent to suffering.
That's not true though. Buddhism revolves around realizing that everything is impermanent, suffering, happiness and even life.
And of course that suffering is caused by wanting things like happiness.
>>1204479
He brought Buddhist thought back to the Middle East and dumbed it right down for them.
>>1204596
Images being important is common to pretty much all religions apart from Abrahamic (Orthodox Christianity is the exception among Abrahamic religions)
>>1204595
Rites in Mahayana Buddhism are just as physical. If it were not, there would hardly be an institution outside the academia.
>>1204607
Right, but I mean suffering and life are only seen as undesirable because they ultimately lead to suffering. If they didn't, then they wouldn't be.
>>1204618
Buddhists don't have any sacrament of physical communion with God, in fact as far as I know, Buddhism wants to leave behind the material, not achieve physical immortality.
>>1204623
Just one example is the Goma Fire Ritual in Shingon, aimed at spiritual cleansing and said to exhibit trance-like states at times. Shugendo, though it developed as a separate religious tradition, is currently associated with Shingon and Tendai and has extreme tests of strength and courage aimed at the actualization of the self.
I suppose the communion is less about calling forth the presence of God, than it is about realizing that presence exists in the fundamental fabric of reality.
>>1204644
Communion is not just about realizing that presence exists. The Orthodox believe God's grace, or "energies", permeate and sustain all of reality. But communion is about not just having your body sustained by God, but about actually uniting with God's body. God became man, all the properties of God, all the properties of a human being, and he told us that truly we cannot be saved without eating his flesh and drinking his blood. So we eat the bread and wine believing them not to be mere bread and wine, but the true flesh and blood of God, God's own body. By ingesting it, we go beyond being merely sustained by God, and become living parts of God's Body, a Body which was Resurrected from death, and by being physical, living parts of that body, we partake of the Resurrection. This is considered the key of Christianity, what holds it all together, what it's all about, the great mystical truth that the religion revolves around.
>>1204620
In Christianity or Buddhism?
Because in Buddhism, there are two things that are of ultimate importance, and that's impermanence, and that the act of willing, or wanting, is what causes distress.
When you realize that wanting material objects for example does not make you happy for a very long time, your desire to acquire them lowers, and this will make you happier, which is ironic to say the least.
>>1204684
Christianity affirms suffering, Romans Romans 5:3-4
I'm saying Buddhism sees happiness and life as undesirable because they can lead to suffering.
>>1204700
>I'm saying Buddhism sees happiness and life as undesirable because they can lead to suffering.
It really doesn't though, because they think it is possible to reach states of consciousness where you do not suffer, which is what Nirvana is all about.
>>1204700
>I'm saying Buddhism sees happiness and life as undesirable because they can lead to suffering.
No, it recognizes the transient nature of both and posits that by waking up from the illusion that you can live a blissful existence free from troubles, and that as a natural result the cycle of rebirths stop.
Simply thinking about it like "life=suffering=bad" etc is a flawed way to approach Buddhism and only causes you to misunderstand it.
>>1204717
Nirvana is an obliteration of consciousness.
>>1204724
No it isn't
>>1204724
>Nirvana is an obliteration of consciousness.
No, it's an obliteration of the ego, and the act of wanting/desiring.
Nirvana isn't about dying.
>>1204717
Nirvana is not something thats used to describe anyone alive or anything that could happen to someone while alive. Typically someone that has become enlightened is referred to as an arahant and you can just say that they have become enlightened and don't need to use the term nirvana. You see this mistake a lot even on Wikipedia but its incorrect to say that someone who is alive has "reached" or "attained" nirvana.
>>1204731
But that's wrong though, because Nirvana isn't about being dead.
>>1204734
Extinguish the flames of desire
>>1204728
You are trying to describe enlightenment and not Nirvana. Nirvana more refers to what happens when an enlightened person physically dies and they aren't reborn.
>>1204724
Neither Nirvana nor enlightenment are the obliteration of consciousness.
>>1204738
Extinguish the self.
Is the Indo-Tibetan commentary tradition the Eastern equivalent of scholasticism?
>>1204749
No, there is no Eastern equivalent, unless you count Islam as Eastern since they invented religious scholasticism.
>>1204748
Yes but that doesn't mean you literally turn into something else. The Encyclopedia of Buddhism notes this too. I'll get the page up for you. Just hold your cum for a second :3
>>1204748
What self?
>>1204659
>become living parts of god
That is what union with the dharma body is about though. You say the nembutsu to call upon amida to bring you to the Pure Land when you die, so as to become one with the dharma body there. You can achieve momentary union through satori, but need mediation to truly sustain it. How is that different?
>>1204750
Which Tibetan works have you read?
>>1204563
Can't God do anything to alleviate our suffering?
>>1204751
>Yes but that doesn't mean you literally turn into something else.
Right, that's the point. Nirvana means escape from reincarnation, and the annihilation of the self.
>>1204754
It's an illusion in Buddhism, but apparently one that can be reincarnated.
>>1204756
None of these are physical unions, none of these are about making your physical body come back to life.
>>1204761
So you're confused about buddhist beliefs?
Buddhist want to destroy consciousness, aka nirvana.
Buddhist want to destroy their selves, but that self doesn't exist. Yet it reincarnates.
Get it together, which one is right?
>>1204736
Nirvana isn't about explicitly being dead but the Buddha made it clear in his discourses that Nirvana wasn't some mental or metaphysical state that you can reach while alive. The word itself refers to the end of rebirth and many experts generally agree that it refers to the literal end of the cycle when you die and aren't reborn and is not referring to the point when you become enlightened.
>>1204734
Thats not the obliteration of consciousness because from the Buddhist perspective each consciousness is just the function of the brain like smell is the function of the nose and that each consciousness exists only in one beings lifetime and each is permanently obliterated with each death anyway. From the Buddhist perspective its no different then saying death obliterates blood circulation or lung usage and so the options of Nirvana and rebirth both obliterate the consciousness of the being who dies.
>>1204761
The "self" is not really an illusion but rather the concept of a permanent non changing "self" that is seen as the illusion
>>1204750
That is a completely wrong assumption. Buddhism has strong foundations in institutions of scholarship in nearly every sect. I am partial to Nagarjuna and the madhyamaka.
>>1204761
How is achieving awakening in a Pure, blissful land created by Amida for our enlightenment any different than awakening in heaven?
>>1204757
None in depth, but I've read sections of them enough to know they aren't scholasticism by any stretch. Scholasticism is founded on Aristotle's Organon.
>>1204760
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XP0J2eDPIjU
Buddhism came to be because India is such a shithole that ceasing to exist is preferable to living.
>>1204764
It's not my fault Buddhist beliefs are a bit contradictory.
>>1204766
Seems a mischaracterization of the significance of fire
>Agni is worshipped as the symbol of piety and purity; as expression of two kinds of energy i.e. light and heat, he is the symbol of life and activity.
>>1204764
Read this post to see an explanation of what you are confused about.
>>1204761
>Nirvana means escape from reincarnation, and the annihilation of the self.
Thats wrong. There is no self to annihilate from the Buddhist perspective and Nirvana is the eventual result of when someone fully understands this. You can't annihilate something that doesn't exist.
>It's an illusion in Buddhism, but apparently one that can be reincarnated.
The self is not reborn, what happens is that craving and attachment cause karmic effects that result in rebirth, but there is no unchanging substance like self or soul that is transmitted between births.
>>1204777
It's moral in some vajrayana schools to kill people who live in shitholes because it would be near impossible for them to accrue any positive karma
>>1204780
That's because you are looking at the whole, when Buddhism is comprised of many different schools and sects. It's like looking at Catholicism, Nestorianism, Otrhodoxy, and Protestantism and saying that Christianity is contradictory.
>>1204774
In terms of intellectual rigor and longevity, it is definitely comparable to scholasticism.
>>1204773
>Buddhism has strong foundations in institutions of scholarship in nearly every sect
"Scholasticism" is not synonymous with "scholarship".
>How is achieving awakening in a Pure, blissful land created by Amida for our enlightenment any different than awakening in heaven?
Heaven is not a distinct realm in Christianity, it is an intersecting dimension with the physical, and we are meant to exist in both together. Our soul's separation from our body is considered an impairment to our humanity, which will be remedied.
>>1204791
Then it's not "rebirth" it's just "birth"
>>1204777
Christianity came to be because resentful Jews were jealous of Roman Chads enjoying all the boipussy they wanted.
>>1204790
I don't think so. A thing can have multiple symbolic meanings
>>1204802
Well the Pure Land, and even nirvana is a state of being as well. And since all is empty and depends on itself for existence, it is useless to call it a non-physical state. There is only the illusion that we are separated from it that keeps us from experiencing it.
>>1204796
Scholasticism isn't just rigorous, it's on the spectrum, and it sowed the seeds of the fall of Christianity in the West. It would have done the same to Islam of it didn't eventually run into very serious opposition.
>>1204790
Agni is a Vedic god and has nothing to do with Buddhism
>>1204780
If you leave out the teachings of the later schools that added on a lot of stuff the teachings of the Buddhas as best we know them are not contradictory. I explained how what that person thought was a contradiction wasn't one in the post I made that replied to them if you want to understand why it isn't contradictory.
>>1204817
Buddhism tends to appropriate Hindu and local deities. In Buddhist cosmology they are known as dewas and are still bound by Samsara
>>1204807
The term rebirth is appropriate when it is a cycle that causes birth after every death.
>>1204780
Its not your fault you haven't understood the buddhist principles. Your knowledge is clearly incomplete. Have you explored why these are contradictory? Maybe one of them is your own belief projecting onto buddhism? Maybe there is an explanation to this?
>>1204812
There can be, but this article is ruling out the primary significance completely
>>1204815
>it sowed the seeds of the fall of Christianity in the West
Would you mind elaborating on this, pretty please?
>>1204814
Nirvana is not something experienced until death
>>1204817
>Agni is a Vedic god and has nothing to do with Buddhism
I'm pretty sure if we're talking about the significance of fire in Indian culture, it's applicable.
>I explained how what that person thought was a contradiction wasn't one in the post I made that replied to them if you want to understand why it isn't contradictory.
No, you iterated another contradiction. If there is not reincarnation, then birth is never rebirth, it's just birth.
>>1204821
Yes and I understand that but for a discussion concerned with Buddha's teachings it makes no sense to bring them up. I just thought that the poster was under the impression that it was part of mainstream Buddhist doctrine which was why I wrote that.
>>1204825
No, "rebirth" for the same entity to have a new birth. It doesn't just mean a birth. Causation also presumably doesn't actually exist in Buddhism either, so the cycle is not really appropriate or sensible.
>>1204827
I presume, from a Buddhist perspective, it's a matter of seeing contradictions that are transcended spiritually.
>>1204815
I don't know what sort of evidence there is that scholasticism had a negative impact on Western Christianity, except in the sense that it was the centre of intellectual life for centuries and so influenced everything that came after.
>>1204839
>No, you iterated another contradiction. If there is not reincarnation, then birth is never rebirth, it's just birth.
see
>>1204825
Not only is that an argument based on a flawed premise but its over semantics and not doctrine. The word rebirth is not exclusively defined by whether a judeo-christian-type unchanging soul is reborn again, as I already stated it is an appropriate term to be used when it is describing a cycle that happens after every death.
>>1204839
>Nirvana is not something experienced until death
That is incorrect, my friend. Even when seen as a "end-life" state, it is not death. It is wholly different from death because it is outside the cycle of rebirth. I'll freely admit that Buddhism has some key differences from Christianity, but there are similarities. You must admit that your knowledge on Buddhism is lacking, and I advise you to stop making such broad statements on the matter until you've read up a bit more.
>>1204836
He held reason over spiritual insight as the highest faculty, and, well, the Enlightenment was only a matter of time from there. Spinoza merely used scholasticism against religion.
>>1204839
>Nirvana is not something experienced until death
Thats paranirvana, as in final nirvana. Nirvana is something is lived with in life.
>>1204840
Ok. I dunno why Constancute is misrepresenting Buddhism though
>>1204850
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rebirth_(Buddhism)
>>1204853
No positive qualities are attributed to it, only things attributed are what are not. It's mainly, perhaps solely, defined by a total absence of suffering.
>>1204614
>supreme right view
Sounds like /pol/'s new religion
>>1204858
"For as long as one is entangled by craving, one remains bound in saṃsāra, the cycle of birth and death; but when all craving has been extirpated, one attains Nibbāna, deliverance from the cycle of birth and death."
>>1204846
If you actually take the time to understand it you see that there not contradictions. There are no contradictions to be "transcended spiritually".
>>1204846
Rebirth in the Buddhist sense of what we are talking about is just used as a placeholder translation for the term that was used by Buddha in a different language.
I'll sum up why your argument is flawed so you understand.
1. Buddha taught about a rebirth where there is nothing like soul or self that passes between lives. From the Buddhist sense it is considered rebirth because it is a cycle that happens after every death.
2. Obviously Buddha spoke in a different language and the english term rebirth is just used in place of what he said.
3. The way Buddha described it in his language had nothing to do with there being an unchanging thing that passed between lives.
4. You believe that there is contradiction in the doctrine because it is called rebirth and you think this is a contradiction because in your mind its not rebirth unless there is an unchanging thing like soul that is passed on and reborn again.
5. There is no contradiction and the mistake you are making is bringing your own assumptions and beliefs about what the word "rebirth" means into the discussion.
6. In order to understand that there is no contradiction in Buddhism you have to realize that you are attaching yourself to a Christian-definition of rebirth. You are basically arguing that something is a contradiction because it doesn't make sense when you switch around the meaning of the terms that it uses.
7. If you temporarily use the Buddhist sense of the word rebirth and set aside your own then you see that there is no contradiction, you are just getting hung up on language. In the language and setting Buddha taught in it was not a contradiction. Your Christian-based understanding of terms don't automatically apply to other times and cultures.
>>1204864
That article doesn't seem to be very well written and is missing some important qualifications and clarifications. While it is true that some sects believe in some sort of thing being passed between rebirths, in Theravada Buddhism (considered by most experts to be the most representative of what Buddha actually taught) and the Pali Canon that it is based on, both make it clear that there is nothing passed on during rebirth (rebirth meaning "rebirth in the sense that Buddha talked about it")
>>1204908
see
>>1204924
That intro paragraph contains some pretty inaccurate statements. Simply linking to it does not prove any argument or any point made by anyone.
This post here >>1204791 describes what Buddha taught about rebirth as best we know from the most solid sources and what most experts generally agree he taught.
>>1204924
It references the Pali Canon
>Another mechanistic rebirth theory that emerged in Buddhism posits that a being is reborn through "evolving consciousness" (Pali: samvattanika viññana, M.1.256)[40][41] or "stream of consciousness" (Pali: viññana sotam, D.3.105) that reincarnates.[42] Death dissolves all prior aggregates (Pali: khandhas, Sanskrit: skandhas), and this consciousness stream combined with karma of a being contributes to a new aggregation, which is rebirth. Nirvana is the state that marks the end of this consciousness continuum and the associated karmic cycle of suffering through rebirths and redeaths.[43]
>all these Buddhists coming from the wood
New age shit?
there is no morality as you think of it in the dhamma.
in the dhamma, there is a polarization of thoughts, speech, act:
-you have the pole of the material hedonist
-you have the pole of the spiritual hedonist
-you have the pole of nibanna
the goal is to understand
-that you begin as material hedonist
-that material hedonism is just here to support spiritual hedonism [=the jhanas, samatha]
-the jhanas are here to support the vision of the dhamma
-so far you have pure faith and you try to understand the dhamma (and fail)
-once you see the dhamma, you lose faith to gain certainty, you stop reflecting on all the dhamma and start practicing the dhamma
you go deeper into tranquility and paramitas, precisely because you know that what you feel and think is rubbish to be happy (and that rituals will never get you anything by themselves, that you must do the work yourself]
-then you have nibanna
what people call morality is ''the tranquility and paramitas towards what they think *is not* their self'' and what people call meditation is ''the tranquility and paramitas towards what they think *is* their self''.
They were the same in that they were both enlightened, but of course only Jesus was the Messiah, the Son of God.
>>1204943
Realize that western Buddhism = new age is just a stupid meme. Europeans were Buddhist in large numbers centuries before they ever became Christian, Buddhism was practiced by many Greeks and white Caucasians before Christ was even born. Don't let memes stop you from educating yourself about something.
>>1204942
I don't know the context of that passage but it says "another theory that emerged" which makes me strongly suspect its not something Buddha actually said because nothing he taught was a theory and he only taught what he maintained was true so that may have been a later interpretation by someone else.
Buddhas was unequivocally clear that there is no unchanging self that is passed between lives and almost all experts will agree on this.
>>1204943
Buddhism as it came into the west in the early 20th century was a product of a Japanese orientalist movement as part of their mobilization and modernization. Do not mistake actual Buddhist thought with that watered down bastardization.
>>1204995
Thats hardly the only reason it came into the west though. Many 20th and 19th century western philosophers and intellectuals became interested in eastern philosophy/religion and wrote about it in their works which eventually generated further interest by the educated population of the west, especially after the 60's.
I do agree though that distinguishing between watered-down self-help type Buddhism and Buddha's actual teachings are very important.
>>1204995
Buddhism as it came to the west is a product of japan being a war-torn shithole in the 50s and the tibetan diaspora. Also 'Nam. War caused a spiritual brain-drain from a lot of places. Then there were westerners in the peace corps making contact with it and >>1205011 really driving it along.
who else /saintyoungmen/ here?
>>1205063
I can agree with that. Suzuki 'Zen' has done a lot of damage to the perception of western buddhism. Actually this thread is the perfect example of the problem. Like maybe 2 anons have any idea at all what they are talking about and the rest is entirely baseless academic conjecture with no relation to actual theory or practice. Pure intellectual masturbation by the uninitiated.
I'm not for the hegemonic power structure of the orthodoxy prescribing what I am allowed to know, but buddhism is an initiatic lineage relying on direct transmission from a guru so that one does not think stupid thoughts that are wrong. I hate those assholes, but I've come to see that they aren't entirely wrong.
>>1205050
>Budhha's face halfway down the rollercoaster
>>1204833
Well, go and give it a read. Serves as a good introduction to Buddhism and its free on bookos if you want to sin by downloading from it.
>>1205109
That's the fundamental problem of discussion religion on /his/. It's only doctrine, and the communal and institutional aspects can never be properly addressed.
And that is why Buddhism remains elusive for many westerners, I feel. It is only accessible through a limited amount of translated doctrinal texts, whereas doctrine only makes up a small portion of religion. Especially with Buddhism, where the most popular (at least in East Asia) sects focus on participation over belief.
>>1204873
Tee-hee. I see what you did there. :D
Buddha is a title of many people, equivalent would be Messiah or something like that.
>>1204924
> OP suggests that Jesus and Buddha are similar
> People argue this
> Becomes argument about meaning of Buddhist doctrine
> Anons suggest that what Buddha said has been distorted by the surrounding commentary, and has strayed from the original intended meaning of the central figure
> OP's hypothesis is thereby confirmed
I read somewhere about John the baptist being influenced by budishm. It's posible?
>>1204525
>Buddha died peacefully
Didn't he die after days and days of shitting himself to death from dysentery? How is that peaceful? Sure, not quite as bad as dying from dehydration while nailed to a cross, but still far from peaceful.
>>1205519
Gautama Siddhartha was born somewhere between 500-400 BCE, so provided that the early formation of Buddhism was consolidated enough to be considered a religion and spread from India to the Middle East by then, then it seems completely likely.
If you read up on the Apocrypha, you'll find all sorts of Eastern philosophy (which makes sense, considering that Christianity is actually an Eastern religion).
>>1205344
Indeed
>>1205519
I don't know but as this >>1205553
guy says its very possible. There were large amounts of Buddhists in the Iran/Afghan/Pakistan area for hundreds of years and some of them traveled west to Greece and the Levant. There was an ascetic community in Alexandria that was likely Buddhist and the Greeks knew about them and the Skeptic branch of Greek philosophy was pretty much kickstarted when Pyrrho came back from his travels in the east where he had learned about Buddhism.
>>1204531
Makes Christians sound like masochists.
>>1206098
I think Constantine abandoned this thread. He wasn't in his element.
>>1206118
He never is.
>>1205541
Christ didn't die of dehydration, he was stabbed by a big spear.
>>1204577
The Sassanian Empire favored Nestorian Christianity after it was declared heretical in the Roman Empire, for obvious reasons.
Also Touraj Daryaee (in Sasanian Persia: the risa and fall of an empire) mentions that merchants were in the lowest strata of society according to Zoroastrianism, or at least the zoroastrian priesthood of the time. This meant that a lot of late antique persian merchants adopted different religions, helping the spread of manicheism and nestorian christianity in the silk road.
>>1206144
That's an interesting subject. I was always fascinated by internationalization and the spread of religion, particularly Christianity into Asia.
>>1204724
Constantine, you should be commended on promoting civil discussion, but there is a common thread going through your relatively blunt comments here regarding buddhism. What you keep nitpicking here is YOUR limited understanding of disparate concepts, stripped of context, which also are generally crude english translations of very old and nebulous terms, that themselves are introductory pointers of a doctrine centered on PRACTICE and understanding through personal experience and a change in perspective as a result of that, not intellectual differentiation from a closed system. This is not to say that buddhism is illogical, but its philosophy is a bit more subtle. There is a real problem with misinterpreting dukkha as on equal terms with the english "suffering", or self as our sense of everyday experience. Im running out of words here but these core concepts require a lot of study to even understand their context.
>>1204791
There. We have found an irreconcilable difference. In Buddhism there does not exist a self, while in Christianity there does.
>>1204902
Pick a different word mate, if the Buddhist sense of rebirth is different from the western sense of rebirth, then use a different word for the Buddhist sense. English is not an eastern language, it is also very flexible and able to appropriate new words.
>>1206227
You disparage Constantine but as far as I can tell, no one else in this thread can agree on anything. Basically people are saying that Christianity and Buddhism are similar but that Christians (like Constantine) completely do not understand Buddhism. If they were similar then Constantine would not be so dead wrong about everything because he knows Christian Doctrine, but since he is so dead wrong, they must be dissimilar.
Mahayana Buddhism was heavily influenced by Nestorian Christianity.
Since we are talking about Christianity and Buddhism here, anyone knows any good material on the Jesus Sutras and Nestorian Christianity on the Silk road?
Questions:
What is the influence of Nestorian Christianity on Buddhism in the common era?
What is the influence of Hellenistic philosophy on Buddhism in the time of Alexander and post-Alexander?
What is the influence of Hellenistic philosophy on Christianity and the interpretation of the Gospels and the Old Testament?
>>1206563
Additional questions you should be looking for, if you're objective about your search for knowledge.
>What is the influence of Buddhism on Nestorian Christianity in the common era?
>What is the influence of Buddhism on Hellenistic philosophy in the time of Alexander and post-Alexander?
>What is the influence of Christianity. the Gospels and the Old Testament on the interpretation of Hellenistic philosophy?
>>1204479
>Socrates is the Western equivalent of the Buddha.
ftfy
>>1204479
Wrong. It was Zeno. Sadly, it never took off.
>>1204479
Buddhism copied Christianity in a lot of ways, not the other way around.
>>1207000
are you talking about a particular branch of Buddhism? like Pure Land? because Indian Buddhism predates Christianity.
What was happening here, religiously and philosophically, in the 2nd century CE?
>>1207023
He's talking about how the diffusion of Christianity to the eastern fundamentally altered parts of Buddhism in some places. I don't know if that claim is true, because Buddhism seems to me to contain a gnostic mysticism, but that is what he is claiming.
>>1204479
Didn't Buddha die fat as fuck while shitting blood?
>>1207193
he wasn't fat. and he died while laying down under a tree (i think)
Budai (Hotei) is fat, and a lot of people in the West get him confused with the Buddha.
>>1207000
>Buddhism copied Christianity in a lot of ways, not the other way around.
you are smart
buddhists say that christians and other theists manage to get into jhanas, where the bliss that they feel is taken, by the theists, for the energies of God. but you can go far deeper in the jhanas and then even leave the jhanas to make nibanna happen.
>>1206452
That's a weird way of saying nondual Shiva tantra.
>>1207594
So you're saying all the good in Buddhism comes from Nestorian Christianity and the bad from Shiva? What?
>>1207415
you walk down that path in 30 years you'll realize you have been foiled and there is no enlightenment
>>1204479
I fucking hate when liberals do these culture/religion equivalence bullshit.
There are profound differences here. It's sad most churches don't even teach much about it any more.
>>1208262
Have you done so yourself? If you're saying enlightenment is nothing special, i would agree with you. If you're saying it's bullshit, you're likely speaking from assumptions based on your own beliefs.
I have practiced Soto Zen for 7 years in formal settings, and while I wouldnt contend to possess such a thing, I have engaged enough people and experienced insight to the degree that am more than certain it is a very real thing. It's just not quite like people would imagine it to be.. and I personally dislike the E word. It's quite presumptuous to dismiss other religions' tenets when you lack the experience or the understanding of their context.
in buddhism, you learn that there is no point in hurting animals and humans, whereas with Jesus, you learn only that there is no point in hurting humans.
>>1208262
>you walk down that path in 30 years you'll realize you have been foiled and there is no enlightenment
only for lazy people in chan
stream entry does exist
>>1204563
>None of our icons depict Christ on the cross except after his death.
We what?
>>1204479
But Christ was actually God and actually did miracles. Buddha did neither and told his followers not to make idols of him.
>>1208473
>actually did miracles
proof?
>>1208478
Historical records
>>1208504
>tfw modern Christians still believe some cucks son literally rose from the dead.
Yes, Jesus studied under Buddhists as a child.
Just as plausible a theory as anything else to do with his life.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QAaW6BYhfNM
Reminder
>>1208504
Any historical records from when Jesus was alive?
>>1206563
>influence of Nestorian Christianity on Buddhism in the common era?
very little, Theravada never came much into contact with it, Mahayana developed and spread to Asia before Christ was born and Zen developed before Christianity reached Japan
>influence of Hellenistic philosophy on Buddhism in the time of Alexander and post-Alexander?
All the evidence suggests very little, its mostly that Buddhism influenced western philosophy. The only substantial changes that happened to early Buddhism was the split into more Mahayana-like schools and none of that seems related to the Greek philosophy at the time. Hellenistic culture had a significant effect on Buddhist art though and was responsible for what academics believe was the first art depicting Buddha as a person.
>influence of Hellenistic philosophy on Christianity and the interpretation of the Gospels and the Old Testament?
A decent amount, Neo-Platonism was in large much a major factor in changing early the Christianity/church into the type of one that eventually dominated in Europe
>>1206682
>influence of Buddhism on Nestorian Christianity in the common era?
IDK about Nestorianism in particular but there is some plausible evidence that Buddhism influenced Jesus and the early church but its not conclusive
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhist_influences_on_Christianity
>influence of Buddhism on Hellenistic philosophy in the time of Alexander and post-Alexander?
There is significant evidence that Buddhism had a moderate-to-large effect on western philosophy
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greco-Buddhism#Exchanges
Pyrrho traveled east with Alexander and met and learned from what were probably Buddhists and when he returned to Greece he ended up started caused the Skeptic branch of Greek philosophy to form.
not enough letters in post for last one but yes it did but it greatly declined with time
>>1207000
1) There is virtually no evidence that Buddhism copied Christianity or was influenced by it in any significant way, Buddha lived 500 years before Christ in case you didn't know.
2) Christianity and Judaism are themselves just successive copies of Zoroastrianism. Judaism was no different then the other bronze-age tribal/city cults until the Jews came into contact with Zoroastrianism and adopted it as their religion but with Yahweh as the deity instead of Ahura Mazda.
>>1207027
not sure exactly but I believe it would have been a mix of Hinduism, Buddhism and Zoroastrianism
>>1211080
> Buddha lived 500 years before Christ
And Moses lived 1000 years before Quran but it was influenced by Judaism.
>>1208154
The majority of Mahayana, especially vajrayana, is Kashmiri shaivist with some slight differences in phenomenology and the addition of the Bodhisattva path. It's essentially a reaction to Hinayana and a return to the initiatic guru lineages that buddhism stems from, philosophy et al. I can't say what came first because the two are highly syncretic and concurrent practices with many of the recognized masters not being buddhist in a monastic sense and quite a few rejecting the orthodoxy for good reason.
There is no christism in buddhist scripture or practice. Outside of gnostic texts, there aren't even compelling parallels besides for a couple parables like the rubies and the pigs. If you want to pursue that thought, the collectivist bent of christism is one of the issues plaguing buddhism for the past 1500 years or so. NST is the philosophical and practical backbone of buddhism and syncretism ex post facto the spread outside its place of origin is minimal, all of which happened long before the spread of Christianity. If anything, it is Zoroastrian Mithraism, which it isn't because the cosmology of buddhism most resembles much older sects not focused on the good/evil dichotomy, if anything at all.
Don't really want to start another thread. Say a man commits murder and then has a heart attack shortly after. He did not repent, but it's possible he may have if not for the heart attack. Pls discuss
>>1211434
It's all about how he handles himself in bardö. Transgressive acts can be enlightening. But most generally it's about the sum total of everything he has done thus far and murder sends you off to one of the hells, of which there are many. Not that it is you, but among other things, including not being you, it is you.
>>1211103
Are you retarded? the point is that Buddhism wasn't influenced by Christianity because it developed way before Christ was even born. Islam was influenced by Judaism because it came after Judaism, that wasn't the case with Buddhism and Christianity. Also, Moses wasn't real.
>>1206452
No it wasn't, it developed way before Christ was born
>>1211678
Buddha and the order of Bhikkus that he founded in his life would only eat what they received from begging with their alms bowls and they didn't eat after mid-day.
He definitely wasn't fat.
Eastern religion is about finding harmony.
Good and evil are both needed for balance and enlightenment and balance are above all things.
On the other hand Christianity has no balance. Rather than the natural state being good and evil men must try to defeat evil and find good. Through their faith and deeds they will become one with god.
These two religions cannot work together.
religion is a coping mechanism once you face your failure of your life, just like other contrived fantasizes, your faith in the scientific method included.
Religions are meant to leave material-bodily hedonism, travels, concerts, foods, sex and so on, for a spiritual hedonism, through prayers for theists and mediation for atheists.
Plenty of material hedonist love to think of themselves as less hedonistic than they are, since it improves their hedonism in thinking that they are not animals...most people who claim to be religious are not all, it is just the way they are.
In buddhism, you even leave this spiritual hedonism, after you have gained it, which is called jhanas, since you understand that this bliss from prayers, which is just a great, but not perfect concentration-stilness, are not personal nor permanent and that you are still prone to avidity and aversion.
>>1211678
>Oh you're so wrong, I have a feeling your only understanding of Buddhism comes from internet memes or something.
what am i wrong about, exactly?
>>1212987
>rabbits before horses
>not eating rabbits
>horses not being faithful companions
When will yankees let us secede?
>>1204479
>"the" Buddha
Dumbass occidentcuck detected.
>>1213066
semitecuck detected
>>1213089
faulty detection system detected
>>1213107
if you are jewish, christian or muslim you are a semitecuck
>>1213138
I think he is referring to how Buddha is a title, and there myriad Buddhas.
>>1213296
This guy gets it.
>>1204808
Except a lot of early converts were Roman soldiers.
>>1206747
>There is no Western equivalent of Buddha
ftfy
>>1204479
Much of what we know of Buddha is passed down from legends and oral traditions. There are no written works mentioning him until several centuries after his death. The earliest written texts detailing his life and teachings are dated nearly 500 years after his death. Particular details about him, including finer details of his philosophy, are impossible to know with any certainty.
>See to it that no one takes you captive by philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition, according to the elemental spirits of the world, and not according to Christ. For in Him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily, and you have been filled in Him, who is the head of all rule and authority.
Colossians 2:8-10
>>1204479
Watch pic related.
One of the sub-plots was the man ended up being Jesus and he only became so because he met Buddha and tried to bring his teachings to the west, but they just weren't ready/didn't understand.
>>1204558
See >>1217435
>He said to them, “You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world. I told you that you would die in your sins, for unless you believe that I am He you will die in your sins.”
John 8:23-24
>>1211555
>Moses wasn't real
Wrong. The Holy Bible is also a history book.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_biblical_figures_identified_in_extra-biblical_sources
>>1217435
>Much of what we know of Buddha is passed down from legends and oral traditions. There are no written works mentioning him until several centuries after his death. The earliest written texts detailing his life and teachings are dated nearly 500 years after his death. Particular details about him, including finer details of his philosophy, are impossible to know with any certainty.
kind of like jesus, only a longer period between the death of Buddha and writings about him.
>The Holy Bible is also a history book.
That's a bit of a stretch. It's history mixed with mythology. It wouldn't pass as a history book in this day and age.
>>1217471
I don't see Moses as one of the figures listed in your link.
>>1217534
>kind of like jesus
Wrong.
>>1217561
There is more evidence for Moses than there is for Homer, Pythagoras or plenty of other ancient historical figures.
>>1217471
How could Moses be real if Jewish slaves didn't even build the pyramids? And he isn't listed on your link bro.
>>1217568
>that image
Kek, you're an idiot.
>>1217568
>There is more evidence for Moses than there is for Homer, Pythagoras or plenty of other ancient historical figures.
What historical evidence for Moses is there outside of the bible? he wasn't even listed in the link you provided.
>>1217568
>Wrong.
About what? The earliest parts of the New Testament were written several years after the death of Jesus. There are no records of Jesus during his lifetime, similar to the case of Buddha.
>>1217568
>There is more evidence for Moses than there is for Homer, Pythagoras or plenty of other ancient historical figures.
you live in a fantasy world
>>1217568
>look at all the evidence for Moses!!!!!!
>posts picture about the New Testament
top kek
>>1217578
See >>1217568
It was a very common egyptian practice to cover up or completely erase humiliating records so it isn't suprising that they did so when they got completely BTFO by God and His chosen people.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Damnatio_memoriae#Similar_practices_in_other_societies
>>1217592
>There are no records of Jesus during his lifetime
He preached for 3 years only and He wasn't surrounded by historians. This is a pathetic argument. Wether you like it or not, Jesus Christ existed and what He preached has been well preserved for nearly two thousand years.
>>1217594
no u
>>1217622
>look at all the evidence for Moses!!!!!!
Who said this?
>posts picture about the New Testament
Yes, in response to the first post I replied to. Go shitpost elsewhere.
>>1217650
>what He preached has been well preserved for nearly two thousand years
>implying the people who wrote the New Testament actually wrote down what Jesus said
What some of contemporaries claimed that Jesus preached has been well preserved. Probably a lot of it is stuff that Jesus also preached, and certainly a lot of it isn't.
>>1217650
>Wether you like it or not, Jesus Christ existed
What historical evidence is there from his lifetime? I think you're the one who is proposing a pathetic argument here.
>>1217650
>He preached for 3 years only and He wasn't surrounded by historians
so why should we take his life story as historical fact? Nobody recorded anything of him during his life. it was all many years after his death.
>>1217664
>What historical evidence is there for Homer or Pythagoras from their lifetime?
That's not an answer to my question.
>>1217663
>why should we take his life story as historical fact?
Because of His resurrection, the greatest event in human history. The Apostles didn't lie. They didn't get crucified, beheaded, stabbed, burned alive, stoned and clubbed to death for nothing. If they didn't see the resurrected Jesus they would've kept denying Him.
>>1217674
That's not an answer to my question.
>>1217679
>the greatest event in human history
how come nobody recorded "the greatest event in human history" when it happened? how come nobody wrote about this huge and miraculous event until many years later?
>>1217679
>They didn't get crucified, beheaded, stabbed, burned alive, stoned and clubbed to death for nothing
Pretty sure people can stick to there convictions without needing someone to literally come back from the dead.
>>1217681
Because you never answered my original question.
>>1217568
>somebody exists as soon as I write his name in some of my books
you seem very smart
>>1217698
When are you going to admit that you're unable to answer my question?
>>1217699
>someone doesn't exist unless a historian followed him around throughout his life and wrote about him while he was still alive
you don't seem very smart
>>1217710
>someone doesn't exist unless a historian followed him around throughout his life and wrote about him while he was still alive
what's wrong with that, exactly?
>>1217722
>When you will die I will claim that you never existed.
Irrelevant. My birth is documented. Pictures exist of me. I've been recorded as being in various different places. your word isn't going to make a difference.
>>1217729
all this from during my lifetime, btw.
>>1217729
Are you one of the autistic kids who unironically say "pics or it didn't happen"?
>>1217748
>Are you one of the autistic kids who unironically say "pics or it didn't happen"?
nope.
>>1217435
Its almost impossible that Buddha didn't exist because there is no way that a relatively small group of possesionless monks could have decided to purposely create a false myth about a teacher and then create and memorize teachings and discourses that the imaginary teacher gave that together equal thousands of pages of text and are basically entirely coherent and give the impression of one person behind it all.
>See to it that no one takes you captive by philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition
Its ironic that you would post this because Buddhism is the religion that encourages critical thinking and critical examination of all its facets while Christianity is the one that discourages critical thinking and instead calls people to just have faith.
>>1217452
literally superstition
>>1217568
>>1217471
Virtually all respected historians and archaeologists agree that Moses wasn't real and was just a mythological figure.
>>1217802
>See to it that no one takes you captive by philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition, according to the elemental spirits of the world, and not according to Christ. For in Him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily, and you have been filled in Him, who is the head of all rule and authority.
Colossians 2:8-10
>>1217817
he already responded to that.
>>1217825
He did not.
>>1217802
>Its ironic that you would post this because Buddhism is the religion that encourages critical thinking and critical examination of all its facets while Christianity is the one that discourages critical thinking and instead calls people to just have faith.
There's even a passage in the bible that tells you not to try and interpret it for yourself, because you might get it wrong.
>>1217802
Its almost impossible that Jesus didn't exist because there is no way that a relatively small group of possesionless monks could have decided to purposely create a false myth about a teacher and then create and memorize teachings and discourses that the imaginary teacher gave that together equal thousands of pages of text and are basically entirely coherent and give the impression of one person behind it all.
>>1217833
http://www.rationalchristianity.net/unknown_verses.html
>>1217848
I aint clicking on that shit.
>>1217679
>They didn't get crucified, beheaded, stabbed, burned alive, stoned and clubbed to death for nothing.
Yes, indeed. They violated Roman laws and defied Roman traditions. The Romans were distinctly not fucking around sorts when it came to that shit.
We have modern studies on religious movements that show that people can be goaded to do and believe utterly irrational, demonstrably false shit by figures they perceive as religiously significant; psychological studies on cults have been very enlightening in that regard, so there's no reason to assume that their actions were motivated in rationality.
>>1217854
t. Mr. "look how rational and skeptic I am!" Atheist
>The simple believes everything, but the prudent gives thought to his steps.
Proverbs 14:15
>Desire without knowledge is not good, and whoever makes haste with his feet misses his way.
Proverbs 19:2
>If I am not doing the works of my Father, then do not believe me.
John 10:37
>Now these Jews were more noble than those in Thessalonica; they received the word with all eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see if these things were so.
Acts 17:11
>Test everything; hold fast what is good.
1 Thessalonians 5:21
>Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world.
1 John 4:1
>>1217864
>they were all just crazy xD
>>1217880
No, I just refuse to click on that link. Thanks for posting those.
That said, there is very certainly a passage that tells you not to interpret the Bible for yourself, you're supposed to leave that to religious authorities. Constantine pointed it out in a thread about protestantism.
>>1217888
They were either crazy or lying, since coming back from the dead is impossible.
>>1217899
>>They were either crazy or lying
See >>1217679
>>coming back from the dead is impossible
For a simple man like you and so is walking on water, the same cannot be said about the Son of Man.
>Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”
Matthew 19:26
>>1217930
Yes, I already addressed that post. They were killed for stirring up shit in the Empire, and religious devotion can encourage people to do and believe crazy shit.
>For a simple man like you and so is walking on water, the same cannot be said about the Son of Man.
No. It's flat out fucking impossible. If you have empirical proof to the contrary, I'd love to see it.
>>1217939
>I want empirical evidence for something spiritual and mystical
Fedoras: missing the point since forever
>>1217944
>I have no standards of proof.
Good for you.
>>1217939
For a simple man like you, not for the Son of Man.
Read Matthew 19:26.
>>1217959
Empirical proof. Provide it or shut up.
Was any historical evidence ever given for Jesus or Moses in this thread?
>>1217969
Jesus is attested to in the writings of Tacitus and Josephus. Which doesn't strictly rule out the possibility of hearsay, but seems to verify his existence. There is no evidence for Moses.
>>1217980
>a face appeared in cloth
Real fucking impressive. Still doesn't prove he came back from the dead.
>>1217969
Take a guess.
>>1217988
The image on the Shroud is of a man 5 feet 10 ½ inches tall, about 175 pounds, covered with scourge wounds and blood stains. Numerous surgeons and pathologists (including Dr. Frederick Zugibe (Medical Examiner - Rockland, New York), Dr. Robert Bucklin (Medical Examiner - Las Vegas, Nevada), Dr. Herman Moedder (Germany), the late Dr. Pierre Barbet (France), and Dr. David Willis (England)) have studied the match between the Words, Weapons and Wounds, and agree that the words of the New Testament regarding the Passion clearly match the wounds depicted on the Shroud, and that these wounds are consistent with the weapons used by ancient Roman soldiers in Crucifixion.
Specifically, the scourge marks on the shoulders, back, and legs of the Man of the Shroud match the flagrum (Roman whip) which has three leather thongs, each having two lead or bone pellets (plumbatae) on the end. The lance wound in the right side matches the Roman Hasta (4cm x 1 cm spear wound). Iron nails (7" spikes) were used in the wrist area (versus the palms as commonly depicted in Medieval art). These marks, combined with the capping of thorns which is not found anywhere else in crucifixion literature of ancient Roman (Tacitus, Suetonius, Pliny the Elder or Pliny the Younger) or Jewish (Flavius Joesphus, Philo of Alexandria) historians create a unique signature of the historical Jesus of Nazareth.
>>1218009
I didn't criticize the shroud. I specifically avoided doing so to avoid you autistically posting your conspiracy theory level shit. The shroud does not prove his resurrection. If it is indeed genuine, it proves that his face appeared in some cloth, you stupid fuck.
>>1218020
>conspiracy theory level shit.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EZKocFGQf24
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hp8AF7i9A3U
Summary of scientific and historical evidence supporting the authenticity of the Shroud:
http://www.newgeology.us/Shroud.pdf
Shroud-like coloration of linen by nanosecond laser pulses in the vacuum ultraviolet (it explains that they replicated the shroud's qualities using laser pulsations, which so far is the only way anyone has been able the replicate the shroud's qualities):
http://www.sindone.info/DILAZZA3.pdf
Studies on the radiocarbon sample from the shroud of Turin:
http://www.shroud.it/ROGERS-3.PDF
Nuclear imaging:
http://shroud.com/pdfs/whanger.pdf
http://www.shroud.com/pdfs/accett2.pdf
Raymond N. Rogers' observations and conclusions:
http://shroudnm.com/docs/2013-01-10-Yannick-Cl%C3%A9ment-Reflections-on-Ray-Rogers-Shroud-Work.pdf
Also, here's some secular peer-reviewed scientific journal articles on the Shroud of Turin:
http://shroud.typepad.com/topics/2005/10/secular_peerrev.html
>>1218030
This board would be objectively better without you.
Provide some peer-reviewed sources from a non-religious academic institution or fuck off and shut the fuck up for the rest of your goddamn miserable life.
>>1218041
Read the post that you just replied to.
>Know this, my beloved brothers: let every person be quick to hear, slow to speak, slow to anger; for the anger of man does not produce the righteousness of God.
James 1:19-20
>>1218041
>atheist cuck mad as fuck
>>1218083
Not a single one is from a secular academic institution. It's all either from an insane conspiracy theory tier religious website, or a website dedicated specifically to the shroud. IE websites pushing a fucking agenda.
>>1218030
>newgeology.us
>Shroud.it
>Shroud.com
>shroudnm.com
Could you link to studies not hosted by an obviously biased source? It's pretty clear these people want the shroud to be true whether or not it is.
>>1218094
You know, I find the 4chan Christian obsession with cuckoldry very telling. Your religion is one in which a man is cuckolded by God so hard that a religion sprung up around the offspring, and presumably every Christian would be OK with this happening to them.
>>1218098
>pushing a fucking agenda
More like exposing you to the Truth from a non dishonest atheist point of view.
This paradigm assumes that the radiocarbonists’ claim that the Shroud of Turin is a 14th century forgery is correct. It is based on what that conclusion tells us about the forger. It tells us that:
1. The forger first painted the bloodstains before he painted the image.
2. The forger integrated forensic qualities to his image that would only be known 20th century science.
3. The forger duplicated blood flow patterns in perfect forensic agreement to blood flow from the wrists at 65° from vertical to suggest the exact crucifixion position of the arms.
4. The forger "painted" the blood flows with genuine group AB blood that he had "spiked" with excessive amounts of bilirubin since the forger knew that severe concussive scourging with a Roman flagrum would cause erythrocyte hemolysis and jaundice.
5. The forger "plotted" the scourge marks on the body of the "man in the shroud" to be consistent under forensic examination with two scourgers of varying height.
6. The forger also duplicated abrasion and compression marks on the scourge wounds of the shoulders to suggest to 20th century forensic examiners that the "man in the shroud" had carried a heavy weight following the scourging.
7. The forger, against all convention of medieval artistry, painted the body he was "hoaxing" as Jesus of Nazareth, nude to conform to genuine Roman crucifixions.
>>1218098
>>1218115
8. The forger, as the forensic genius he was, illustrated the nails of crucifixion accurately through the wrists rather than the hands as in all other conventional medieval representations. He also took into account that the thumbs of a crucified victim would rotate inward as a result of median nerve damage as the nails passed through the spaces of Destot.
9. The forger was clever enough to "salt" the linen with the pollens of plants indigenous only to the environs of Jerusalem in anticipation of 20th century palynological analysis.
10. The forger was an artist who surpassed the talents of all known artists to the present day, being able to "paint" an anatomically and photographically perfect human image in a photographic negative manner, centuries before photography, and be able to do so without being able to check his work, close up, as he progressed.
11. The forger was able to paint this image with some unknown medium using an unknown technique, 30-40 feet away in order to discern the shadowy image as he continued.
12. The forger was clever enough to depict an adult with an unplaited pony-tail, sidelocks and a beard style consistent with a Jewish male of the 1st century.
13. The forger thought of such minute details as incorporating dirt from the bare feet of the "man in the shroud" consistent with the calcium carbonate soil of the environs of Jerusalem.
14. This forger was such an expert in 20th century biochemistry, medicine, forensic pathology and anatomy, botany, photography and 3-D computer analysis that he has foiled all the efforts of modern science. His unknown and historically unduplicated artistic technique surpasses all great historical artists, making the pale efforts of DaVinci, Michaelangelo, Raphael and Botticelli appear as infantile scribblings.
>>1218108
>Implying my wife's son might be the second coming of Jesus :D
>>1218126
In 2002, a team of experts did restoration work, such as removing the patches from 1534 and replacing the backing cloth. One of the specialists was Swiss textile historian Mechthild Flury-Lemberg. She was surprised to find a peculiar stitching pattern in the seam of one long side of the Shroud, where a three-inch wide strip of the same original fabric was sewn onto a larger segment.
The stitching pattern, which she says was the work of a professional, is quite similar to the hem of a cloth found in the tombs of the Jewish fortress of Masada. The Masada cloth dates to between 40 BC and 73 AD.
This kind of stitch has never been found in Medieval Europe.
>>1218126
Also, Max Frei, a Swiss police criminologist who initially obtained pollen from the shroud during the STURP investigation stated that of the 58 different types of pollens found, 45 were from the Jerusalem area, while 6 were from the eastern Middle East, with one pollen species growing exclusively in İstanbul, and two found in Edessa, Turkey.
Holy Shroud's blood test results? AB-
Sudarium of Oviedo's blood test results? AB-
Lanciano Miracle's blood test results? AB-
AB- = 1% of the population
Pic related.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blood_type_distribution_by_country
>>1218144
The Shroud of Turin’s images are superficial and fully contained within a thin layer of starch fractions and saccharides that coats the outermost fibers of the Shroud. The color is a caramel-like substance, probably the product of an amino/carbonyl reaction. Where there is no image, the carbohydrate coating is clear. There is also a very faint image of the face on the reverse side of the Shroud of Turin which lines up with the image on the front of the cloth. There is no image content between the two superficial image layers indicating that nothing soaked through to form the image on the other side.
Until recently, it was widely believed that the images on the Shroud of Turin were produced by something which resulted in oxidation, dehydration and conjugation of the polysaccharide structure of the linen fibers. This is incorrect. The coating, whether imaged or clear, can be reduced with diimide or removed with adhesive leaving clear cellulose fiber.
The images as they appear on the Shroud of Turin are said to be negative because when photographed the resulting negative is a positive image.
The Turin Shroud was examined with visible and ultraviolet spectrometry, infrared spectrometry, x-ray fluorescence spectrometry, thermography, pyrolysis-mass-spectrometry, lasermicroprobe Raman analyses, and microchemical testing. No evidence for pigments (paint, dye or stains) or artist’s media was found anywhere on the Shroud of Turin.
No ''medieval forger'' ''forged'' the Holy Shroud, sorry.
>>1218158
>No ''medieval forger'' ''forged'' the Holy Shroud, sorry.
So, do you have some academia to back that up?
Also the Pope stops short of asserting its authenticity. Do you think you know better than the Pope?
>>1218165
Adress >>1218115 >>1218120
>Do you think you know better than the Pope?
What I know is that I'm not a heretic.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fvjmveYw0tE
>christ
good will towards others
live free of sin
forgiveness
belief in god
divine magical elements
>buddha
deep satisfaction in life doesnt come from material gains or a complete lack of wealth, but somewhere inbetween; a simple life where satisfaction is derived from knowing what you enjoy
Not only no god, but denial of any kind of god or divine magic; search for truth by evidence and testing; test those results then test those results; let others test your results and be willing to accept being wrong.
the focus is different. Christ is outward actions and magical god stuff, while Buddha was about inward reflection and no gods or magic. Also, the original root Buddhism is a philosophy while everything about christ is a religion. As buddhism spread, some parts, like when it hit japan, turned into religions, but im talkin about the original Tibetan/Nepalese ones and the buddha's teachings himself. Cant compare religions and philophies cuz you can even subscribe to both; admiration of the Buddha isnt idol warship; its just respecting the person who laid it out in the first place and a reminder of what to aspire to.. like hanging a pic of Einstein up in your physics lab.
Not saying one is better than the other here; just saying theyre so different that theyre apples and oranges.
>>1218158
But I thought that you can't trust scientist (those devils preaching evolution etc), are you sure that anyone investigating the shroud would come to the same conclusions as these exceptionally unbiased investigations?
>>1218174
See >>1217435
>Jesus said to him, “I am the Way, and the Truth, and the Life. No one comes to the Father except through me. If you had known me, you would have known my Father also. From now on you do know Him and have seen Him.
John 14:6-7
>>1218173
>address
Simple. You asserted a bunch of bullshit without backing it up, and I can assert whatever I want with equal validity.
The shroud is actually made of paper towels, used to wipe a grill and then sent back in time to the 13th century.
Also, I aint watching that.
>>1218165
You're so ignorant you cannot see how improbable your assertions are. You lost my friend.
>>1218200
What assertions? That I want some academia rather than obviously biased religious bullshit to back up asserting the shroud's validity? That I want empirical proof of the claim of resurrection?
>>1218181
New experiments date the Shroud of Turin to the 1st century AD. They comprise three tests; two chemical and one mechanical. The chemical tests were done with Fourier Transform Infrared Spectroscopy (FTIR) and Raman spectroscopy, examining the relationship between age and a spectral
property of ancient flax textiles. The mechanical test measured several micro-mechanical characteristics of flax fibers, such as tensile strength.
The results were compared to similar tests on samples of cloth from between 3250 BC and 2000 AD whose dates are accurately known. FTIR identifies chemical bonds in a molecule by producing an infrared absorption spectrum. The spectra produce a profile of the sample, a distinctive molecular fingerprint that can be used to identify its components. Raman Spectroscopy uses the light scattered off of a sample as opposed to the light absorbed by a sample. It is a very sensitive method of identifying specific chemicals.
The tests on fibers from the Shroud of Turin produced the following dates:
FTIR = 300 BC ± 400 years; Raman spectroscopy = 200 BC ± 500 years; and multi-parametric mechanical = 400 AD ± 400 years. All the dates have a 95% certainty.
The average of all three dates is 33 BC ± 250 years (the collective uncertainty is less than the individual test uncertainties). The average date is compatible with the historic date of Jesus’ death on the cross in 30 AD, and is far older than the medieval dates obtained with the flawed Carbon-14 sample in 1988. The range of uncertainty for each test is high because the number of sample cloths used for comparison was low; 8 for FTIR, 11 for Raman, and 12 for the mechanical test.
The scientists note that “future calibrations based on a greater number of samples and coupled with ad hoc cleaning procedures could significantly improve its accuracy, though it is not easy to find ancient samples adequate for the test.”
(1/2)
>>1218185
but following someone's nonreligious philosophy isnt much different than following your dad's advice when he says "do a good job today"
except the small bit where buddhism flat out denies religion by saying to believe only what you can prove and to keep testing the evidence..
>>1218181
>>1218223
They used tiny fibers extracted from the Shroud by micro-analyst Giovanni Riggi di Numana, who gave them to Fanti. Riggi passed away in 2008, but he had been involved in the intensive scientific examination of the Shroud of Turin by the STURP group in 1978, and on April 21, 1988 was the man who cut from the Shroud the thin 7 x 1 cm sliver of linen that was used for carbon dating.
These tests were carried out in University of Padua laboratories by professors from various Italian universities, led by Giulio Fanti, Italian professor of mechanical and thermal measurement at the University of Padua’s engineering faculty. He co-authored reports of the findings in 1) a paper in the journal Vibrational Spectroscopy, July 2013, “Non-destructive dating of ancient flax textiles by means of vibrational spectroscopy” by Giulio Fanti, Pietro Baraldi, Roberto Basso, and Anna Tinti, Volume 67, pages 61-70; 2) a paper titled “A new cyclic-loads machine for the measurement of micro-mechanical properties of single flax fibers coming from the Turin Shroud” by Giulio Fanti and Pierandrea Malfi for the XXI AIMETA (Italian Association of Theoretical and Applied Mechanics) congress in 2013, and 3) the 2013 book “Il Mistero della Sindone” (The Mystery of the Shroud), written by Giulio Fanti and Saverio Gaeta in Italian.
(2/2)
http://www.newgeology.us/Shroud.pdf
>>1218223
>medieval dates obtained with the flawed Carbon-14 sample in 1988
Why?
>>1218268
The 1988 Carbon-14 tests done at Oxford, Zurich and Arizona Labs used pieces of the same sample cut from a corner.
1. A paper published in Jan 20, 2005 in the journal Thermochimica Acta by Dr. Ray Rogers, retired Fellow with the Los Alamos Scientific Laboratory and lead chemist with the original STURP science team (the 1978 Shroud of Turin Research Project, involving approximately 35 scientists directly examining the Shroud for five days), has shown conclusively that the sample cut from The Shroud of Turin in 1988 was taken from an area of the cloth that was re-woven during the middle ages. Here are some excerpts:
"Pyrolysis-mass-spectrometry results from the sample area, coupled with microscopic and microchemical observations, prove that the radiocarbon sample was not part of the original cloth of the Shroud of Turin. The radiocarbon date was thus not valid for determining the true age of the shroud."
"As part of the Shroud of Turin research project (STURP), I took 32 adhesive-tape samples from all areas of the shroud and associated textiles
in 1978." "It enabled direct chemical testing on recovered linen fibers and particulates".
"If the shroud had been produced between 1260 and 1390 AD, as indicated by the radiocarbon analyses, lignin should be easy to detect. A linen produced in 1260 AD would have retained about 37% of its vanillin in 1978...The Holland cloth, and all other medieval linens, gave the test [i.e. tested positive] for vanillin wherever lignin could be observed on growth nodes. The disappearance of all traces of vanillin from the lignin in the shroud indicates a much older age than the radiocarbon laboratories reported."
(1/2)
>>1218268
>>1218273
"The fire of 1532 could not have greatly affected the vanillin content of lignin in all parts of the shroud equally. The thermal conductivity of linen is very low... therefore, the unscorched parts of the folded cloth could not have become very hot." "The cloth's center would not have heated at all in the time available. The rapid change in color from black to white at the margins of the scorches illustrates this fact." "Different amounts of vanillin would have been lost in different areas. No samples from any location on the shroud gave the vanillin test [i.e. tested positive]." "The lignin on shroud samples and on samples from the Dead Sea scrolls does not give the test [i.e. tests negative]."
"Because the shroud and other very old linens do not give the vanillin test [i.e. test negative], the cloth must be quite old." "A determination of the kinetics of vanillin loss suggests that the shroud is between 1300- and 3000- years old. Even allowing for errors in the measurements and assumptions about storage conditions, the cloth is unlikely to be as young as 840 years."
"A gum/dye/mordant [(for affixing dye)] coating is easy to observe on...radiocarbon [sample] yarns. No other part of the shroud shows such a
coating." "The radiocarbon sample had been dyed. Dyeing was probably done intentionally on pristine replacement material to match the color of the older, sepia-colored cloth." "The dye found on the radiocarbon sample was not used in Europe before about 1291 AD and was not common until more than 100 years later."
"Specifically, the color and distribution of the coating implies that repairs were made at an unknown time with foreign linen dyed to match the older original material." "The consequence of this conclusion is that the radiocarbon sample was not representative of the original cloth."
(2/3)
>>1218268
>>1218273
>>1218277
"The combined evidence from chemical kinetics, analytical chemistry, cotton content, and pyrolysis-mass-spectrometry proves that the material from the radiocarbon area of the shroud is significantly different from that of the main cloth. The radiocarbon sample was thus not part of the original cloth and is invalid for determining the age of the shroud."
"A significant amount of charred cellulose was removed during a restoration of the shroud in 2002." "A new radiocarbon analysis should be done on the charred material retained from the 2002 restoration."
Raymond N. Rogers. 20 January 2005. Studies on the radiocarbon sample from the shroud of turin. Thermochimica Acta, Vol. 425, Issue 1-2, Pages 189-194.
2. The Fire-Model Tests of Dr. Dmitri Kouznetsov in 1994 and Drs. John Jackson and Propp in 1998, which replicated the famous Fire of 1532,
demonstrated that the fire added carbon isotopes to the linen.
Dmitri Kouznetsov, Andrey Ivanov, Pavel Veletsky. 5 January 1996. Effects of fires and biofractionation of carbon isotopes on results of radiocarbon dating of old textiles: the Shroud of Turin. Journal of Archaeological Science, Volume 23, Issue 1, Pages 109-121. doi:10.1006/jasc.1996.0009
Jackson, John P. and Propp, Keith. 1997. On the evidence that the radiocarbon date of the Turin Shroud was significantly affected by the 1532 fire. Actes du III Symposium Scientifique International du CIELT, Nice, France.
(3/3)
http://www.newgeology.us/Shroud.pdf
>>1218273
>The 1988 Carbon-14 tests done at Oxford, Zurich and Arizona Labs used pieces of the same sample cut from a corner.
Oh I actually didn't know that. Thanks.
>Unless you people see signs and wonders, you will never believe.
John 4:48
>>1218273
>>1218277
>>1218280
>>1218286
"What the implants are being used for is still a mystery to UFO researchers but there are many theories as to their alien purpose. Doctors that have removed alien implants have come across many interesting aspects including a detected field of electromagnetic waves, compounds found previously only on meteors (extraterrestrial), mechanical materials, as well as biological materials. Using what has been found about them concludes that they may be used for tracking purposes, especially since many of the subjects report being repeatedly abducted throughout their lives. Other theories suggest that the alien implants may be used to collect information about the person involved and transmit data back to the aliens, or even as some kind of mind control device.
"Most people that have alien implants don't know that they have them and most don't even remember coming in contact with a UFO or aliens. Some common symptoms of being abducted and having an implant surgically placed inside you can include:
An abnormal scar or mark on the body that can't be explained
Long periods of lost time
Flashbacks and/or dreams of being on a surgical table surrounded by lights and beings
Hard pieces of metallic or plastic like substances under the skin that shouldn't be there
Feedback or buzzing from speakers when you are near by
Uncontrollable actions
Painful nasal cavities as if something hard is up there
Headaches due to a brain implant
Nose bleeds
"Out of all of UFO alien research implants are slowly becoming noticed by the scientific community as tangible evidence of real alien abductions because of the number of similar cases featuring out of this world materials. There have been thousands of abduction cases but with very little evidence except for the subjects themselves accounts of what happened but with physical evidence stronger cases can be made about the truth of these alien visitors."
>>1218310
UFOs are either aircraft from the government or spirits (mostly demonic). I've seen some.
See >>1218030 and go shitpost elsewhere, this desperation of yours is truly embarassing.
>>1204479
>Christ
>western
Oh boy, the tripfag is in yet another thread posting about the sacred jebus rag again. You know what ranting about some stupid forgery from the middle ages is in the context of a thread regarding comparisons to Jesus Christ and the Buddha?
Shitposting.
>>1218101
He doesn't have unbiased sources for this shit. People who look at this shit objectively came to the obvious conclusion that this thing was a forgery years ago.
What's up with Buddhists and their "8-fold plan"? Don't they see each and every different person on this earth has their own rules and in life, and people could simply not ascribe to these 8 "golden" rules?
As if Buddha really found the golden truth in these rules?!
>>1218894
>stupid forgery
Read >>1218273 >>1218277 >>1218280 then read >>1218223 >>1218235 and then address >>1218115 >>1218120
>Unless you people see signs and wonders, you will never believe.
John 4:48
>>1218925
>>1219215
There are only two arguments against the authenticity of the Holy Shroud and they are the 1988 tests (see >>1219206) and the "confession":
>The letter of 28 May 1356 is the only extant document of Bishop Henri de Poitiers which bears upon the question. Its contents are a direct refutation of what is alleged in the Memorandum; the Bishop informs Geoffroy I that he is satisfied with all he has done for the divinum cultum and adds his laudamus, ratificamus, approbamus (we praise, ratify and approve). Chevalier merely lists this document without reporting its text. In fact, there exists no document relating to Henri de Poitier's inquiry, no document alluding to his appointing a commission, nor the confession of an artist.
http://www.shroud.com/pdfs/ssi08part5.pdf
There's also "muh Allen", see:
https://desustorage.org/his/thread/973390/#973828
And "muh Garlaschelli", see:
https://desustorage.org/his/thread/1130099/#q1135680
https://desustorage.org/his/thread/1130099/#q1135682
https://desustorage.org/his/thread/1130099/#q1135683
https://desustorage.org/his/thread/1130099/#q1135689
the shroudfag ruined another thread with the same exact posts he spams in other threads. shame.
>>1219206
He doesn't have to address them, because they're not substantiated. You asserted a bunch of shit that's dense enough that they couldn't refute it in the span of this thread, but you have no actual evidence for it.
This is like the oldest /pol/ tactic, where you bury people in so much shit that they can't possibly respond and then declare victory because they don't feel like arguing with crazy people.
Do you have any unbiased sources from credible academic institutions?
>>1219240
>they're not substantiated
t. clueless
See >>1218030
>>1219258
>btfoing ensues
That's an interesting way to describe providing no empirical proof of the claim.
>>1219260
The Holy Shroud is authentic. Deal with it.
>>1219259
Do you have any unbiased sources from credible academic institutions?
>>1219258
>Btfoing ensues.
First, put your tripcode back on you turbonigger
Second, even if this rag were what you claim it to be, it wouldn't be proof of the supernatural claims of the bible.
>>1219264
Do you have eyes to see and ears to hear?
>>1219265
Wrong.
>>1219262
As is obviously proven by your ability to flood the thread with copypasta.
Wait a second, that isn't how proof works at all.
>>1219273
>Wrong.
explain.
>>1219273
So, no, you don't.
>>1219269
Those websites are very credible and they are merely hosting the pdf documents. Look at who actually wrote them, you have to look at the references, same with Wikipedia, if you read the ''Studies'' part of the Sudarium of Oviedo's article, you'll read:
>The cloth has been dated to around 700 AD by radiocarbon dating.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sudarium_of_Oviedo#Studies
But if you look at the source (pdf below) provided in the ''Notes'' which is supposed to support that statement, you'll read:
>The sample from the Sudarium was dated to around 700 AD. Scientist César Barta spoke about the carbon dating process, emphasising the fact that if carbon dating is always absolutely accurate, then we could just as well finish the congress there and then. However, there were several points to bear in mind – in specialist carbon dating magazines, about half the samples dated come up with the expected date, around 30% with an “acceptable” date, and the other 20% is not what one would expect from archaeology.
>The laboratory used (via the National Museum in Madrid) said they were surprised by the result and asked if the cloth was contaminated with any oil based product, as oil is not cleaned by the laboratory processes used before carbon dating and if oil is present on a sample, the date produced by carbon dating is in fact the date of contamination. Finally, the history of the Sudarium is very well established and there are definite references to its presence in Jerusalem in AD 570 and at the beginning of the fifth century.
>As has already been mentioned, there are definite references to the Sudarium’s presence in Jerusalem in the 5th and 6th centuries, two hundred years before the carbon 14 date.
http://www.shroud.com/pdfs/n65part6.pdf
Gee! I wonder why the person who wrote the wiki article didn't include that additional information! See >>1218135
>>1219273
>Do you have eyes to see and ears to hear?
10/10
>>1219287
>>Those websites are very credible
No they aren't.
>>hurr wikipedia isn't trustworthy you guiz
>>but the random websites I'm posting totally are nevermind that they are called things like shroud.com, shroud.it, shroud.nm etc
>> Nevermind that newgeology.com is a fucking creationist loony bin MY SOURCES ARE TOTALLY AUTHENTIC AND YOURS AREN'T SO THERE.
>>1219300
>hurr
Try again.
Also, my entire point is that you have to look at the references.
>>1219324
Then post the academic articles themselves. Surely it shouldn't be so hard, and can only stand to boost your credibility. After all, if they were given good peer review, the institutions that backed them should be happy to publish them on such an evocative subject.
Protip: someone smart writing something doesn't make it true. This is why peer-review is a thing.
>>1219340
Do you have eyes to see and ears to hear?
>>1219324
>Try again
Why? You are an idiot who thinks crapflooding the thread equals winning an argument. You also don't seem to get that a forum full of history nerds are not going to be capable of effectively debating the veracity of the claims surrounding the jebus rag in question. Take these specific scientific claims regarding this thing's authenticity to /sci/ and see how fast you get blown the fuck out.
If you want to debate the historical problems with this thing that's something else, but at the end of the day there is no reliable mention of this rag before the 14th century, and that combined with the confession that you cavalierly dismiss because of something that was written before the record of that confession somehow refutes it(nice logic there, fuckwad) are more then enough to cast serious doubt on this supposed artifact's credibility.
>>1219346
Answer the challenge. Post the academic sources themselves.
>>1219352
>>1218030
>Also, here's some secular peer-reviewed scientific journal articles on the Shroud of Turin:
>http://shroud.typepad.com/topics/2005/10/secular_peerrev.html
>>1219351
>Take these specific scientific claims regarding this thing's authenticity to /sci/ and see how fast you get blown the fuck out
Done that already and I'm not the one who got "blown the fuck out", they were actually screaming for the mods' help, heh.
https://warosu.org/sci/thread/S7999517
>>1204479
>Western
Jesus is a Semitic God/prophet
>>1219396
>Semitic God
God*
>>1219383
You did the same thing you always do, a bunch of your claims got torn to shreds, and they reported your ass for trolling. Yep, you got blown the fuck out.
>>1219383
>https://warosu.org/sci/thread/S7999517
>>Done that already and I'm not the one who got "blown the fuck out", they were actually screaming for the mods' help, heh.
>>OP does not understand half the stuff he is posting, he has amassed a bunch of shit from various Shroud websites and has been spamming them for a day and a half on /his/ in two separate threads.
>>spamming them for a day and a half on /his/ in two separate threads.
Gee I wonder why they called for a mod.
>>1219402
Surely, my Semite friend.
>>1219428
Well, more importantly the fact that even the experts on your side couldn't find any evidence of this supposed reweave, or the fact that your claims of contamination don't hold up.
>>1219436
>ermagerd a discoloration overrules vatican investigators
Holy shit, you're like those guys that watch videos of terrible events looking for shit out of place to prove the reptilians did it.
>>1204486
Buddha was a benevolent force, not so sure about christ
>>1220330
cool bait man
